Chuck Person, ChicagoJ likes him.
Coaches can teach that stuff. But it's sad that an NBA coach has to teach fundamentals. And I think players are good or bad at it, and we happen to have a team full of players that are bad at moving the ball, moving without the ball, and screening. (Except for Hill with the first two.)
As to Vogel - I thought the Pacers did the right thing by checking out other coaching options before re-upping him last year. That said, now that they've committed to him, it's way too early to punt. Vogel is a young coach, both in years and experience. In a lot of ways, he's still finding his path. Rough patches like this are to be expected.
I think the higher expectations this year may be getting to Vogel. He is exhibiting some classic coach-under-pressure behavior. Leaning on his starters/vets too long, throwing out a lot of new lineup combos, etc. Then again, sticking with a set rotation didn't work out so hot last year, did it? And of course Granger being out could throw a spanner in the best-laid plans.
I'd like to say that I'm confident Vogel can turn it around, but I'm not. I sure think he deserves a chance to do so though. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of replacing him until after the season at least.
Some blame has to go to the FO as well. When we signed Mahinmi and Green, I said at the time that while they did well in limited minutes, it was asking a lot to expect them to take a major rotation role right away. Right now I think we're seeing the growing pains as Mahinmi and Green adjust to far larger roles than what they were used to. I'm enormously disappointed with Augustin though - I really thought he'd have a bigger (positive) impact.
* EDIT: So I guess I don't follow Jay's posts that well :blush:, a quick search shows that Chuck Person is the guy he's referring to
I wonder how much could be fixed by simply staggering the bench substitutions a little?
I adore Frank, genuinely do. He's exactly what the players, franchise, and fanbase needed after JOB. It sounds far worse than I mean it, but the guy's an ultimate towel waver. He's more than optimistic, he's a fanboy. I think he's gotten in over his head. I'm not going to hang it all on him because I think our talent's been overrated for a good while now, but there have got to be better schematic coaches.
There's no way Frank could "step down" back into an assistant role, but it'd be for the best. But if there's a guy he'd probably do it for it's Jerry Sloan. And Sloan's a great fit.
edit: and in absolutely no way am I saying don't give Frank the chance to play out the year and see what happens. but we end up at 40ish wins or something, how you feeling about coming back to Indiana Sloan?
Na, I don't mind Vogel, the Pacers offense is just really boring to watch right now. Mostly it's George Hill dribbling :/
in some ways i see this as similar to the manning situation. everybody loved 18 but bottom line is this is a business and the owner has to do what is ultimately in the best interests of the Franchise.
we cannot go back to the Fieldhouse only selling out half the arena or were not going to have a team before you know it. i like Frank. i liked 18.. would love to have seen him come back, but ultimately it was best for both the Colts and Manning to part ways.
i think Frank as ive said below has a bright future. he would be perfect for a rebuilding team or a team that is not really needing a coach.. (ie a Miami, or the pacers from 2000; just a vet group). the Pacers are kinda right there in the middle.
the young guys like Hibbert and George need the best coaching the Pacers can give them. I love Franks optimism and hard work but the lack of experience concerns me. we have the right this ship soon.
im not even sure Shaw is the answer, i just want someone who has more credentials on his resume. Frank is a young coach.. he will get a shot as an assistant somwhere i believe.
I wouldn't mind Ewing on staff. Outside of Bill Russell, not many C's have been great head coaches. As players, they don't really have to see the whole floor or everything that's going on, they just have to dominate the middle. For former players, that doesn't translate as well to the HC spot but can make for a nice assistant. Ewing could be an exception to that rule, but I'd prefer to use him a different way if I were putting together the next coaching staff, whenever that might be.
Maybe Ewing should be an assistant coach to get Hibbert's and Mahimni's skills up and get their heads in the game!
I can't vote on this quite yet, I really like Frank, My heart says ride him for the year and hope he proves that he can be a head caoch in this league, but my head says how quick can we get another head coach. I'm so torn, I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
The problems that Vogel has are not new. These are issues that had me hesitate last summer.
I'll bet we would have the top Coaches in the league clambering to come here if we were to fire our 3rd coach in a row, before their contract was completed! There are times when firing a choach and bringing in a new one will turn a team around. Oh yeah, that's what Vogel did. If you have a very talented group of players who will adjust and change their role on a team, and do anything asked of them to win, then who the coach is doesn't make that much difference. IMO, firing RC because he "lost" that group of misfits set this franchise back years, and firing more coaches won't help the teams position. Maybe Frank needs to be let go. Or maybe he needs better assisants or better players?
no way do i want to see Vogel let go this season. Coach Frank Vogel deserves a fair chance, its very misfortunate for us to lose Granger 3 mos.
*by the way, didnt Granger realize this sooner in the offseason with the knee. Colin Cowherd was talking about that the other day where nba players like to enjoy their summer than deal with the medical isssues in preseason. who knows.
Coach Vogel definitely deserves a fair chance. but the offense has not looked good. reading the Espn article about whats wrong w the Pacers has me now furthermore questioning the FO. I will not go there, but i supported Bird and still think it sucks he left.
intersting now that Mike Brown got fired who i thought pacers would have pursued. i like Shaw. Magic Johnson was on Espn talkking about Shaw as the next best thing to Phil Jackson.
Vogel deserves a year of patience from management.
He does not deserve a year of non-criticism from Pacers Digest, nor even a month. Nobody gets that.
Honestly, he deserves more respect. You can disagree with his methods, but the young man has delivered. He's delivered a lot more than that guy with white bushy sideburns after 4 long years...
Barkley on NBATV right now giving Rifleman some major love and endorsing him to the Lakers new HC. Very mixed feelings.
After this game, I'd like to change my vote to "in over his head".
I can't help but think many of the issues are due to terrible preparation and coaching. This team has not been prepared for a game yet, hasn't made any quality adjustments.
I'm fairly despondent at this point. Hard to have any faith in these players and this coach.
I still believe in Vogel.
I blame the front office for this mess.
Quite frankly, being in every single game except the Spurs game is a testament to how good he is given how bad the team is outside the 4 starters from last season. And even then, it's not his fault that Hibbert got paid and decided he'd rather choreograph a stupid dance at the mall. You'd he'd more time in the gym but judging by the way he's played so far, I'm not sure he spent anytime in the gym. 10pts, 4rebs and Love didn't even play. Kevin Love probably would have grabbed 30 boards.
EDIT: And I love your avi. Tom Haverford for the win.