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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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More nonsense!

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  • #31
    Re: More nonsense!

    and i have very little doubt that DD00 and i would have gotten on the same page...with neither of us being the worse for wear....we werent even disagreeing, per se'....which is the ironic part...

    and in this case when u have mods jumping in rather unceremoniously with an attitude that rivals the attitude they are accusing others of having....well it took a situation that was simply a misunderstanding and turned it into something much different...

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: More nonsense!

      Originally posted by foretaz
      if u could go either way on the fact that the first 4 or 5 posts of this thread shouldve been moved.....then something is bad wrong...which points to my "conspiracy theory"....theres not a reason in the world that those posts shouldve been moved...not one...not unless someone has a different agenda

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: More nonsense!

        That's fine, and it's OK with me that you exercise your right to question how the mods do thier jobs.

        From an outside perspective, this thread seemed dangerously close to getting out of control, and a quick "lets talk about some of this elsewhere" thread split isn't that big of a deal.

        I understand you're desire to explain yourself. But the first rule of communication is "The message you send is never exactly the message that is received." Meaning: readers often interpret words to mean something outside the original intent of authors.

        Bearing that in mind, a lot of the talk in this thread is an attempt to explain how the tone and perceived "attitude" in some of your posts can be adjusted to allow for more accurate and calm interpretation by your readers.

        Good luck, and don't give up.

        - LA
        “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

        “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: More nonsense!

          Originally posted by Hicks

          is this ur explanation for why the first 4 posts in this thread were removed from the original thread?

          cause im waiting.....id really like to know why theyve been moved...since they are in no way off topic or out of line by any standard im aware of....

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: More nonsense!

            Foretaz, you're trying too hard to turn this into something its not.

            Chill out, re-read what I've said twice, and let it go. The point is not for you or anyone else to take every word I've posted on this thread literally, as if anybody was being quoted. Rather, its for everyone to remember that we can all disagree, but we need to be civil about.

            Heaven forbid we ever try to make a pre-emptive strike when we sense a problem brewing - maybe not with you and DD00, maybe not even with you, period. But we've been getting complaints about how "testy" its been around PD lately and we're trying to be preventative. You may not have called DD00 an "Idiot", and he may not have even been offended by what you said, but your comments were in a gray area.

            Nobody was banned, no posts were censored, etc. This is the equivalent of a minor traffic stop. We'd just like to move everybody back to the "civil" side before there is a blowup.

            Everone take five minutes to calm down.
            Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
            Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
            Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
            Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
            And life itself, rushing over me
            Life itself, the wind in black elms,
            Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: More nonsense!

              Originally posted by Los Angeles
              That's fine, and it's OK with me that you exercise your right to question how the mods do thier jobs.

              From an outside perspective, this thread seemed dangerously close to getting out of control, and a quick "lets talk about some of this elsewhere" thread split isn't that big of a deal.

              I understand you're desire to explain yourself. But the first rule of communication is "The message you send is never exactly the message that is received." Meaning: readers often interpret words to mean something outside the original intent of authors.

              Bearing that in mind, a lot of the talk in this thread is an attempt to explain how the tone and perceived "attitude" in some of your posts can be adjusted to allow for more accurate and calm interpretation by your readers.

              Good luck, and don't give up.

              - LA
              there was no tone or perceived attitude in the 4 posts that begin this thread....and as ive said....u start perceiving attitude on the internet and u go down a road that simply should not be gone down....so u will forgive me if im not particularly interested in others people opinion on how they feel i might 'adjust my tone and perceived attitude'....and people are saying im condescending ????

              funny...i always thought the first rule of communication was "listen"
              guess we read a different book...

              but, it is possible for things to get misunderstood when only words are involved....and i have no doubt that was at the root of the initial problem....

              however the mods jumped the gun and did it in a very unprofessional manner as far as im concerned.....if there were truly concerns, these shouldve been addressed privately....the fact that someone would not only do it in an open forum, but do it with the words that were used....well....it wouldnt seem to lend to the fixing of any problem, but only creating new ones and escalating a situation, which it did...and while i dont see this done on a normal basis, the ensuing remarks indicated that there definitley was some added, outside motivation for it....

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: More nonsense!

                OK, I'll let this one go.
                “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

                “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: More nonsense!

                  PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: More nonsense!

                    Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                    Foretaz, you're trying too hard to turn this into something its not.

                    Chill out, re-read what I've said twice, and let it go. The point is not for you or anyone else to take every word I've posted on this thread literally, as if anybody was being quoted. Rather, its for everyone to remember that we can all disagree, but we need to be civil about.

                    Heaven forbid we ever try to make a pre-emptive strike when we sense a problem brewing - maybe not with you and DD00, maybe not even with you, period. But we've been getting complaints about how "testy" its been around PD lately and we're trying to be preventative. You may not have called DD00 an "Idiot", and he may not have even been offended by what you said, but your comments were in a gray area.

                    Nobody was banned, no posts were censored, etc. This is the equivalent of a minor traffic stop. We'd just like to move everybody back to the "civil" side before there is a blowup.

                    Everone take five minutes to calm down.
                    I didn't realize we had annointed another new moderator.

                    Congrats!
                    I'm not even sure he was annointed "moderator". Seems to me he thinks he's "king" or something.
                    I wish I knew what axe I had to grind.

                    I also wish I were an admin, so I could say whatever I wanted when someone was dictating to other members what is "appropriate" for the forum and being an a.......

                    Oh wait, I am an admin. That means I can discuss what the recourse in this situation would be and post accordingly, like I did today! Whoopie!
                    im curious...which of these are preemptive strikes...and which are done to deescalate the situation.....which ones are preventative....are any of these gray area??? would they be considered civil just disagreeable????

                    the simple fact that the mods have chosen to handle this all on the open forum versus privately might lead one to believe that its not me whos trying to turn this into something that its not....

                    suggestion...if u dont want things to become tense or lacking civility....throwing gasoline where u perceive there to be fire might not be the best idea.....and i cant help but think handling this in a private manner wouldve been much more effective....and im disappointed in that...considering ive had multiple conversations privately with both u jay and hicks as well....btown is a different story....and since his comments pretty much speak for themselves...i wont even address them...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: More nonsense!

                      Is there a way to crate a "shout-shout box", for threads that get more out of hand here?

                      It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                      Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                      Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                      NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: More nonsense!

                        Originally posted by Kstat
                        Is there a way to crate a "shout-shout box", for threads that get more out of hand here?
                        It would need round the clock observation and guards to keep everyone safe.
                        House Name: Pacers

                        House Sigil:



                        House Words: "We Kneel To No King"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

                          Even though this is already all here on this page, I'll repeat it one last time. The premptive strike was:

                          Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                          Was that necessary?

                          You do realize that you're just about the only one on here setting "rules" for threads and other posters, by the way?
                          A fairly harmless comment to keep your inflammatory words to DD00 from setting off a firestorm. That was followed by you telling me to re-read the title of this thread. As if the thread title somehow justified your rude comments?

                          So I asked you what was your point, and instead of explaining yourself, or stopping, you proceeded to tell DD00 your "rules" for participating in this thread, even though he had done nothing wrong. Sometimes, we like to be "transparent" here so that everyone knows the limits. There was nothing to censor or ban, no reason to PM somebody and make them feel threatened. This should have all stopped here after my gentle "nudge."

                          So I said,

                          Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                          DD00 was talking about basketball. Heck, he was talking about a player he wouldn't take for JO. Seems to me that (1) he was on topic, and (2) even if he wasn't totally on-topic, we go on tangents all the time around here and that's fine.

                          You can feel free to stop telling other people how to post at any time.
                          And you said,

                          Originally posted by foretaz

                          :finger:
                          And then all hell broke loose.

                          Now, had I known you'd respond like that, I would've handled it privately. I thought I could subtly let you know that your comments were unneccessary and that you'd keep it from further escalation. I guess I was wrong, so I'm sorry. Next time, if you'd prefer, maybe we'll just overreact and censor your post or give you a "vacation" without giving you an opportunity to maintain the conversation with a more civil choice of words.
                          Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                          Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                          Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                          Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                          And life itself, rushing over me
                          Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                          Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

                            Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                            Even though this is already all here on this page, I'll repeat it one last time. The premptive strike was:



                            A fairly harmless comment to keep your inflammatory words to DD00 from setting off a firestorm. That was followed by you telling me to re-read the title of this thread. As if the thread title somehow justified your rude comments?

                            So I asked you what was your point, and instead of explaining yourself, or stopping, you proceeded to tell DD00 your "rules" for participating in this thread, even though he had done nothing wrong. Sometimes, we like to be "transparent" here so that everyone knows the limits. There was nothing to censor or ban, no reason to PM somebody and make them feel threatened. This should have all stopped here after my gentle "nudge."

                            So I said,



                            And you said,



                            And then all hell broke loose.

                            Now, had I known you'd respond like that, I would've handled it privately. I thought I could subtly let you know that your comments were unneccessary and that you'd keep it from further escalation. I guess I was wrong, so I'm sorry. Next time, if you'd prefer, maybe we'll just overreact and censor your post or give you a "vacation" without giving you an opportunity to maintain the conversation with a more civil choice of words.
                            thats ur version...the way u see it....which is far different from the way i see it....

                            not unlike many things that can take place on here....

                            funny how we both think our own actions were gentle nudges and harmless....while the other one caused things for all hell to break loose....

                            trust me....u think they broke loose when :finger: happened....but in my estimation they had already done so...and that was my response....

                            and for the record...there would have been no firestorm....as i have indicated and DD00 has indicated.....a fact that somehow u seem to want to avoid....

                            the only ones that seemed to think there was a potential firestorm was u....and evidently btown, though im not sure about him....all i know about him is his disparaging remarks to me seem to be a nonissue.....far be it from a poster to degrade another poster-in the mods eyes....but having a mod call a poster names and degrade him....well thats ok...interesting...

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: More nonsense!

                              Don't make me stop this car. Because I will, you know. I'll do it.....

                              It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                              Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                              Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                              NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: What player(s) would you take for JO?

                                Originally posted by foretaz
                                -snip- and for the record...there would have been no firestorm....as i have indicated and DD00 has indicated.....a fact that somehow u seem to want to avoid....

                                the only ones that seemed to think there was a potential firestorm was u...
                                I've acknowledged that was probably true in this instance. However, it doesn't really matter.

                                From: The Rules of Pacers Digest

                                1. Don't be a jerk. You have no right, at any time, to deny anyone on this forum the right to have a positive experience and/or conversation on this forum. Intentionally acting rude, insulting, flaming, belittling, name-calling, hateful or insensitive to anyone or their friends, family, or where they live is not acceptable. We will not always agree with each other, but show some respect. If you do one of these things, it will be edited. If you continuously do it, you will be asked to stop, and if you fail to stop after talking with us about it, you will be dealt with in whatever way we feel is appropriate. If what was said is particularly obscene, you will be banned.

                                Every situation is different, and depending on how we or the person(s) being verbally abused takes your post, it can affect the severity of our response.

                                If what was said is viewed as light-hearted, or there was a simple misunderstanding, it might be OK and no harm is done. On the other hand, if what was said is viewed as particularly bad, we have the right to bypass a warning and immediately ban you.

                                What is seen as "particularly bad"? That depends on the situation, but generally speaking, if we believe what was said was blatantly racist, hateful, or otherwise mean-spirited/obscene/offensive, you will most likely be immediately dealt with.

                                Be sure to read this if you feel you are being accused or punished over a simple misunderstanding:

                                If you feel that you were in no way intentionally trying to insult anyone, and it was a simple misunderstanding, you must go out of your way to explain yourself. This is critically important to avoid any further misunderstandings, unfair treatment, or needless animosity.

                                If you offend somebody, responding with a and "I was just joking" doesn't cut it. You have to explain yourself.

                                Joking around is fine, but it helps if you make it known you're fooling around. Nobody can read your mind here.
                                Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                                Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                                Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                                Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                                And life itself, rushing over me
                                Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                                Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                                Comment

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