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Ok, it's officially time to panic

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  • #46
    Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    Originally posted by graphic-er View Post
    NO the point is the trade should have never been made. They have taken a 3pt threat away from the offense and replaced him another guy that needs the ball in his hands. It doesn't work from an X's an O's stand point. This is the main reason for the team's stuggles. They no longer spread the floor, dump it inside, and swing it for open looks. Granted Granger wasn't hitting the shot very well, but NOW nobody is. You can survive one guy not shooting well for the season. But teams still had to honor Granger's shot when he was on the floor. In th 2nd unit we had Lance facilitating, Granger camped out on the 3pt line and Scola setting the Pick and Pop. It actually worked okay, because Lance was able make up for any offensive deficiencies from Scola or Granger. The problem happened when Lance decided that he had the green light and didn't even need to try and pass it to Scola or Granger. Thats when the team really started to struggle.

    The only way this is fixed is to run a 2nd unit of Lance, Watson, Copeland, Scola, Mahinmi. They also need to play Lance less with the Starters and give those 1st unit minutes to Butler or Solo Hill. They have to have a guy in the starting line up who can play D and hit the spot up 3, and keep the ball swinging when he doesn't have a shot.
    I don't think that the main reason for the team's struggles are due to the fact that we traded a guy averaging 35.9% from the field in 22.5 MPG for a guy who is shooting 41.4% from the field in 21.7 MPG. If anything, we should have Turner shoot the three more considering that he is 7-16 from three point land since coming here.

    Has Turner been as effective as we hoped he would be when he made the trade? No, but this idea that the team fell apart because of Granger's absence is just really far fetched. If his absence caused the best team in the league to crumble, then that's basically saying that he is one of the most important players in the league despite being a 8.3 PPG player who missed the first two months of the season and wasn't even playing when we went to the ECF's last year. If Granger had been a key contributor on last year's team and then been a major contributor on our team this season, then I would be the first to say that we missed him. But he was a complete shell of his old self and wasn't that important anymore.

    Our issues aren't because of the bench. We're struggling because the once dominant starting lineup is playing like crap for the most part - the starting lineup who took Miami to 7 last year with basically no help from the bench. Hibbert gets shoved out position too easily, has shot a weak percentage all year, doesn't rebound well, and has had way too many opponents put up KG numbers on him lately. West has struggled a bit recently. George Hill gets torched by virtually every PG in the league and been shooting the ball like crap lately, plus it seems like he is struggling to find his role on this current team. Lance has IMO been our most consistent player, but he certainly has had too many moments where he dribbles too much, turns it over, and is generally unpredictable.

    The biggest of all problems, IMHO, is that the guy who was championed as the next Lebron and Durant has generally been awful from the offensive end lately. This is a trend that was starting long before Granger left, and it's reached a complete boiling point. I put the most blame on PG because I think we should expect the most from him. He is the guy who went toe to toe with Lebron in the ECF's, signed the huge contract before the season started, got the Gatorade commercials, started in the all-star game, and in general just received a massive amount of hype. He backed it up in the first two months of the league and was playing like the MVP throughout the new year. But all of the talk about how he was the next big thing began to get to his head. He started playing as if the only way the Pacers could win is if he had a Durant-like impact on the game. There have been a ton of crappy predictable ISO's, forced jumpers, sloppy takes to the bucket, and a lot of complaints to the refs. That all translates to a 41.0 FG% in January, a 40.1% in February, and an especially awful 37.1% in March. This is far too long to be a mere "slump". We're talking 43 games here.....a little over half the season. His selfish style of offense has caused a domino effect that has hurt everything.

    We're struggling because our starters are playing far below their ability. It's not because we swapped bench players.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-30-2014, 10:21 PM.

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    • #47
      Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

        Look at the bright side: We only have one more day of the Month from Hell that we probably should never speak of again.
        "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

        "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "

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        • #49
          Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

          Originally posted by Sandman21 View Post
          Look at the bright side: We only have one more day of the Month from Hell that we probably should never speak of again.

          I'll start a new saying...................March suckiness brings April luckiness

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          • #50
            Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

            Anybody know what the attendance numbers are for March compared to the rest of the season? The Pacers uninspired play hasn't hurt their attendance yet has it?

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

              Is this bottom? Maybe its tomorrow. I thought I saw a glimpse last game of a turn around at the end, SA is absolutely rolling, too smh

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              • #52
                Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                One or more of the players are the issue. This has the feel of the Ron Artest & Jermaine O'Neal back room wars. There is a fly in the ointment.
                You know, it is very possible. Both Hibbert and George are young guys who just got paid, but have fairly big egos and there are limited albeit apparent indications in the press that things may be tense between them. And Lance knows he's getting paid this offseason no matter what by someone. If things go bad and the Pacers then don't make a really concerted effort to keep Lance, we may know who was blamed. However, if all that goes down, Paul George better nut up next year.

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                • #53
                  Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                  I'm at the same point as a lot of you in that I really don't know what to say. I've never seen a team so dominant turn so mediocre with the same players in the same season. Yes Granger was moved but for the most part we have the same team. I've seen a lot of you defend Vogel in the other threads but it's proven we have the players to win against anyone. I really think Vogel has lost this team. Maybe I'm wrong and I hope that I am but we'll never have this much talent again. It's proven that Vogel doesn't get the most of the bench in how well we see players perform after they leave here and how we see their numbers go down when they join our bench, but Frank's not getting the most of our starters now either. If Vogel can't get it done with these players and falls short in the playoffs I think he has to go.
                  Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

                  Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                    Originally posted by presto123 View Post
                    Anybody know what the attendance numbers are for March compared to the rest of the season? The Pacers uninspired play hasn't hurt their attendance yet has it?
                    They actually sold out all 6 home games in March.
                    There is no NBA player named Monte Ellis.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                      Originally posted by boombaby1987 View Post
                      They actually sold out all 6 home games in March.
                      Kudos to the fans showing up!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                        I'm not panicking, because I feel this team is better than Miami on either court. I think they're just gassed, in large part because Vogel hasn't given guys many nights off (also hasn't reduced the starters' minutes to explore a deeper rotation), and that has led to a lot of finger pointing from guys who don't know what they're talking about, and that leads to a whole bunch of confusion.

                        Case in point, Roy Hibbert. The guy pretty much calls out Lance Stephenson for shooting too much and says Paul George has the green light and he trusts Paul George because he's earned it. Well, guess who is our worst shooter during this stretch, and who keeps chucking despite being ice cold? Hint: it isn't even close. And Hibbert was doing this finger pointing while stinking up the joint, especially on the boards. His rebounding is absolutely inexcusable, and I dare any of you to say otherwise.

                        For the record, I am ok with Paul George trying to shoot through his slump. Our 7'2 max extension center should be grabbing some of those misses and it just isn't happening.

                        I am sick and tired of the Lance blaming, though. I even read people saying he should be starting in the 2nd unit to give them some firepower. Uhh, why not demote George Hill? He's the one who lacks playmaking ability, who frequently struggles to guard his opponent, who contributes little if anything on a nightly basis. Seems to me like he would really benefit from leading the 2nd unit, but then again, it also seems that he's the new Danny Granger for some of you... aka Mr Untouchable.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                          Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                          I don't think that the main reason for the team's struggles are due to the fact that we traded a guy averaging 35.9% from the field in 22.5 MPG for a guy who is shooting 41.4% from the field in 21.7 MPG. If anything, we should have Turner shoot the three more considering that he is 7-16 from three point land since coming here.

                          Has Turner been as effective as we hoped he would be when he made the trade? No, but this idea that the team fell apart because of Granger's absence is just really far fetched. If his absence caused the best team in the league to crumble, then that's basically saying that he is one of the most important players in the league despite being a 8.3 PPG player who missed the first two months of the season and wasn't even playing when we went to the ECF's last year. If Granger had been a key contributor on last year's team and then been a major contributor on our team this season, then I would be the first to say that we missed him. But he was a complete shell of his old self and wasn't that important anymore.

                          Our issues aren't because of the bench. We're struggling because the once dominant starting lineup is playing like crap for the most part - the starting lineup who took Miami to 7 last year with basically no help from the bench. Hibbert gets shoved out position too easily, has shot a weak percentage all year, doesn't rebound well, and has had way too many opponents put up KG numbers on him lately. West has struggled a bit recently. George Hill gets torched by virtually every PG in the league and been shooting the ball like crap lately, plus it seems like he is struggling to find his role on this current team. Lance has IMO been our most consistent player, but he certainly has had too many moments where he dribbles too much, turns it over, and is generally unpredictable.

                          The biggest of all problems, IMHO, is that the guy who was championed as the next Lebron and Durant has generally been awful from the offensive end lately. This is a trend that was starting long before Granger left, and it's reached a complete boiling point. I put the most blame on PG because I think we should expect the most from him. He is the guy who went toe to toe with Lebron in the ECF's, signed the huge contract before the season started, got the Gatorade commercials, started in the all-star game, and in general just received a massive amount of hype. He backed it up in the first two months of the league and was playing like the MVP throughout the new year. But all of the talk about how he was the next big thing began to get to his head. He started playing as if the only way the Pacers could win is if he had a Durant-like impact on the game. There have been a ton of crappy predictable ISO's, forced jumpers, sloppy takes to the bucket, and a lot of complaints to the refs. That all translates to a 41.0 FG% in January, a 40.1% in February, and an especially awful 37.1% in March. This is far too long to be a mere "slump". We're talking 43 games here.....a little over half the season. His selfish style of offense has caused a domino effect that has hurt everything.

                          We're struggling because our starters are playing far below their ability. It's not because we swapped bench players.
                          Its not the Lack of Granger on the team or his poor shooting percentage, it was his role on the team. Before Granger got back into the line up that role fell to Solo Hill or Rasual Butler. The guy who can defend, and spot up at the 3 point line. Move the ball around, make the correct play. The addition of Turner doesn't not fit that role. The Pacers need that role player on the floor playing big minutes. The guy who plays unselfishly.
                          Lance stepped up his game when both Granger and Scola started slumping. But he forgot to bring those guys along and keep them engaged once his name was being thrown around for All-Star consideration. He brought the same play to the starting unit. Ball stopping ISO's. You can't have 2 guys in the same line up playing ISO ball from the perimeter like PG and Lance do.

                          I do totally agree that PG and Roy is a major problem, and that is the reason why we can't even beat **** poor teams these days. But Lance not playing the right way has a major affect on the success of PG and Roy.

                          Again, Basketball teams have to have clear roles. Granger knew his role, Butler and Solo knew their roles. Turner has no clue what his role is. Lance changed his role just cause he wanted to "get Paid"
                          You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                            I think both Lance and Turner are gone after the season if things continue as is, and the Pacers get themselves a true shooter at SG, I don't think the Pacers can resign either of them if they plan to tweak the team any, if things don't work out.

                            Firing Frank may or may not be the best thing to do, I don't really know who would be better out there honestly.

                            I think the Pacers will try and S&T Lance for pick(s) and get some veteran shooters to keep PG, West, George Hill and Hibbert in line. I see Hill, Watson, Sloan, PG, Solo, Cope, West, Hibbert, and Ian staying on the team and filling out the rest.
                            "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

                            ----------------- Reggie Miller

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                            • #59
                              Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                              I just don't buy the "we are tired" excuse.

                              Spurs should be more tired than us.

                              It is just annoying that you know that there is a huge problem but you don't know where it is.
                              Even the player and the coach said they don't know.

                              Shiiit.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                                Originally posted by Sherlock View Post
                                I just don't buy the "we are tired" excuse.

                                Spurs should be more tired than us.

                                It is just annoying that you know that there is a huge problem but you don't know where it is.
                                Even the player and the coach said they don't know.

                                Shiiit.
                                The guy that was averaging 24ppg and shooting 48% the first 3 months of the season just had a month where he averaged just under 19 and shot 37%..

                                The center that started that same stretch averaging 13 points, about 8.5 boards and nearly 3 blocks a game on roughly 47% spent march averaging 9.4 points, 1.9 blocks and 4.5 rebounds on 43% shooting.

                                No reason to oversimplify this. The two max contract players are playing terrible. There are drop offs here and there throughout the roster, but nothing remotely close to what Hibbert and George are going through.

                                I'm pretty sure they're well aware of why the entire team is in a horrendous funk. They won't say it, but they know.
                                Last edited by Kstat; 03-31-2014, 06:15 AM.

                                It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                                Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                                Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                                NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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