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Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

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  • #76
    Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

    Originally posted by dohman View Post
    When I think of lance I think more of the spurs and how they are able to find guys of questionable talent and make them look like stars.

    OKC was just fine when they let harden go.

    If you overpay a role player it will cripple you for years to come.
    Don't think OKC is fine. They were better with Harden
    Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

      Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
      Meant the Warriors this year without Iggy's well rounded game while he was hurt. With him they look like they go for 60 wins. Without him more like 45ish.
      I personally think Iggy is the most over rated player in the NBA. Decent passing skills for a 2 but his scoring just keeps dropping every year. Hes supposed to be this great defender but I seem him as average at best. KD killed him a few nights ago while Iggy scored 2 points. Hes very over paid for what he brings. Denver would have been far better off in never trading Afflalo and a 1st. to get Iggy.
      Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

      Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

        Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
        You consider Harden a role player?

        Also, I used to doubt Lance as much as anyone, but what's questionable about him more? He celebrates too much? The guy hasn't had any sort of a notable run in since two years ago in May when he flashed the choke sign at Lebron, and it seems sort of hypocritical to get that upset with him for that considering the most beloved athlete in Pacers history did way worse than that on more than one occassion.

        What I said was not comparing Lances and Hardens game. It was talking about the simple fact that both players are going to cause a finical strain on the organization that would like to keep them. What I was trying to say is even as much as a offensive juggernaut harden was they were able to recover with parts that were cheaper and allowed them to keep their bottom line in check. They went from being a top tier team in the west to still being a top teir team in the west.

        I am not questioning anything about Lance. I love his game, I love his attitude, and I especially like his antics. Most do not care for them but when your a bad mother fer sometimes you have to show it. I love the fact that other teams hate him and really the only thing that I could say I dislike is his acting like he is hurt after everytime he even gets the tiniest of bumps.

        The pacers are not the lakers, knicks or any of the other markets that are going to get TV deals. They cannot go over the salary cap and that is not going to be enough. If they choose to sign him it will CRIPPLE the bench for years to come. We are not going to get aging free agents to come here on the cheap. I just do not think he is worth what we are going to have to give up.

        Losing him will suck. We will always wonder what if we have had another year or 2 with the same roster. But we cannot PAY everyone. At some point your going to lose a player and try to find someone on the cheap that will give you close to the same production that they had.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

          Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
          I personally think Iggy is the most over rated player in the NBA. Decent passing skills for a 2 but his scoring just keeps dropping every year. Hes supposed to be this great defender but I seem him as average at best. KD killed him a few nights ago while Iggy scored 2 points. Hes very over paid for what he brings. Denver would have been far better off in never trading Afflalo and a 1st. to get Iggy.
          KD is killing everybody right now, he is slowly becoming the best playmaker around he is up there with LBJ now in that department.


          On Iggy advanced stats paint him as one of the most important players to his team in the NBA. The defense is completely different with him on the floor. I can understand why someone would say he is overrated due to his stats, but he really brings a lot to his team. He is worth what he is getting paid this year.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

            Originally posted by pacer4ever View Post
            KD is killing everybody right now, he is slowly becoming the best playmaker around he is up there with LBJ now in that department.


            On Iggy advanced stats paint him as one of the most important players to his team in the NBA. The defense is completely different with him on the floor. I can understand why someone would say he is overrated due to his stats, but he really brings a lot to his team. He is worth what he is getting paid this year.
            I live in Colorado and watch a lot of Nuggets games. I'm not going off stats, I just don't see what all the love is for Iggy. The Nuggets record last year was more about Lawson and Danny G stepping up then it was about Iggy doing anything special. They would have had the same record or better with Afflalo and could really use him this year.
            Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

            Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

              Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
              I live in Colorado and watch a lot of Nuggets games. I'm not going off stats, I just don't see what all the love is for Iggy. The Nuggets record last year was more about Lawson and Danny G stepping up then it was about Iggy doing anything special. They would have had the same record or better with Afflalo and could really use him this year.
              I agree about Afflalo most underrated player in the NBA. I wouldn't have made the deal I like Afflalo, but Iggy is a great fit for Golden State, and has been a difference maker in GS getting back playoff seeding. I didn't really like Iggy as a fit in Denver his playmaking skills were undervalued and so was his defense. His style is better suited for GS. He and Bogut are going to be there difference makers if they win in the playoffs.


              EDIT: His advanced stats in Denver were average in both offense and defense. His advanced in GS show he is a game changer on both ends. It is due to the fit IMO Denver really didnt need a wing with his skill set the Warriors do.
              Last edited by pacer4ever; 01-20-2014, 05:56 PM.

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              • #82
                Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

                I gotta disagree with the title some. The Clippers without Chris Paul just aren't on our level would be more accurate. With Chris Paul they're scary good too.

                The good news is,we match up great with them if we meet them in the Finals
                Pacers,baby!

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

                  From our game 12-1-13, Chris Paul or no Chris Paul we got this team. Either way though you are certainly correct that if we play again it will be in the finals

                  Starters MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS +/-
                  Lance Stephenson 39:25 3 6 .500 0 2 .000 1 3 .333 3 7 10 6 1 0 3 3 7 +3
                  Roy Hibbert 36:19 8 16 .500 0 1 .000 3 4 .750 5 3 8 2 1 1 4 3 19 +18
                  George Hill 35:32 2 5 .400 1 4 .250 6 6 1.000 0 5 5 6 1 0 3 3 11 +21
                  Paul George 34:54 10 23 .435 4 10 .400 3 3 1.000 1 5 6 5 2 1 3 4 27 +14
                  David West 34:43 11 22 .500 0 1 .000 2 2 1.000 6 6 12 2 0 1 1 4 24 +17
                  Reserves MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS +/-
                  C.J. Watson 18:13 1 6 .167 1 5 .200 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 2 3 -19
                  Luis Scola 13:17 1 5 .200 0 0 1 2 .500 1 4 5 0 0 0 2 1 3 -12
                  Ian Mahinmi 11:41 1 3 .333 0 0 3 6 .500 1 2 3 0 0 1 0 2 5 -13
                  Orlando Johnson 9:08 1 1 1.000 1 1 1.000 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 3 +1
                  Solomon Hill 6:48 1 2 .500 1 2 .500 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 2 3 -5
                  Team Totals 240 39 89 .438 8 26 .308 19 26 .731 17 33 50 25 5 4 16 25 105


                  Basic Box Score Stats
                  Starters MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS +/-
                  Blake Griffin 36:32 6 13 .462 0 0 4 5 .800 3 9 12 2 1 0 5 3 16 -21
                  DeAndre Jordan 35:19 5 8 .625 0 0 1 2 .500 6 6 12 2 3 1 0 3 11 -15
                  Chris Paul 34:00 6 15 .400 0 1 .000 5 5 1.000 0 3 3 10 1 0 1 4 17 -19
                  Jared Dudley 19:14 3 7 .429 1 1 1.000 3 3 1.000 0 0 0 0 1 0 2 3 10 -18
                  Willie Green 14:57 1 5 .200 0 3 .000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 -11
                  Reserves MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS +/-
                  Jamal Crawford 32:58 6 19 .316 1 6 .167 7 7 1.000 0 1 1 2 1 0 1 1 20 +8
                  Darren Collison 23:32 3 6 .500 0 1 .000 2 4 .500 0 5 5 3 0 0 1 4 8 +14
                  Reggie Bullock 19:19 4 4 1.000 1 1 1.000 1 1 1.000 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 10 +11
                  Antawn Jamison 15:32 1 4 .250 1 2 .500 0 2 .000 1 3 4 0 0 0 0 3 3 +16
                  Ryan Hollins 8:37 1 1 1.000 0 0 1 2 .500 2 1 3 0 0 1 1 2 3 +10
                  Team Totals 240 36 82 .439 4 15 .267 24 31 .774 12 29 41 19 8 2 11 23 100


                  Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

                    The Clippers have a few big names and a lot of so-so players. CP3 is great. BG is very good. Crawford is very good. Jordan isn't bad. But they have no depth and in total their best players are not as good as ours. The Clippers are very much over-rated. Ryan Hollins? Darren Collison...our throwaway? Jared Dudley starts?
                    Lance is finally home. Whether he becomes our starting PG or he's 6th man, he's getting big minutes and he's here to stay. #llortontnia

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

                      Originally posted by dohman View Post
                      Ill suggest it. Trust me I love lance, I have loved him since he was drafted, I loved the fact that he was finally able to find his spot in the nba. But here is the thing, YOU DO NOT OVERPAY ROLE PLAYERS. If your wanting to pay him you have to find a way to trade danny and george hill together for cap room.

                      Without scola, lances assists go down dramatically. Without west and Hibbert his rebounds drop. Without 5 or 6 MAJOR scoring options he does not get to play 1 on 1 basketball. Lance is a part of the system, a system that makes him shine. His talents are superb but they are also replaceable. We cannot go back to a team without a bench. We saw what happened last year every time the 2nd unit would take the floor. Whatever lead we had was lost.... Personally I feel a discounted granger and scola are better options for this team then lance, its one or the other from what everyone says.

                      I am sorry but I think he will fail if he is asked to be "the man" on another team.
                      I was referring to West not Lance. Some have suggested moving West to free up salary for Lance next summer. If it comes to that I'd rather lose Lance then West. Just look at the impact he has on Lance in the locker room with that one statement from Lance.
                      Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

                      Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

                        Originally posted by dohman View Post
                        Ill suggest it. Trust me I love lance, I have loved him since he was drafted, I loved the fact that he was finally able to find his spot in the nba. But here is the thing, YOU DO NOT OVERPAY ROLE PLAYERS. If your wanting to pay him you have to find a way to trade danny and george hill together for cap room.

                        Without scola, lances assists go down dramatically. Without west and Hibbert his rebounds drop. Without 5 or 6 MAJOR scoring options he does not get to play 1 on 1 basketball. Lance is a part of the system, a system that makes him shine. His talents are superb but they are also replaceable. We cannot go back to a team without a bench. We saw what happened last year every time the 2nd unit would take the floor. Whatever lead we had was lost.... Personally I feel a discounted granger and scola are better options for this team then lance, its one or the other from what everyone says.

                        I am sorry but I think he will fail if he is asked to be "the man" on another team.
                        Honestly, IMO, if any of our starters, with exception of Paul, were asked to be the man on another team would fail. I posted in another thread that our starting lineup is like Voltron...individually, they're good; but together, they're unstoppable. They compliment each other like no other team does.

                        Going back to Lance....how many other players on this squad can get his own shot? How many other SG's in the NBA can, consistently, get a rebound? How many other players in the game have his court vision? I disagree with your opinion of Lance being just a role player.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

                          Originally posted by Major Cold View Post
                          It is interesting to think that West and Hibbert allow for Lance to grab those boards because they box out their men. And I agree that Scola gets better rebounds because Ian seals his man really well. I think that is the reason why Tyler's rebound rate went up.

                          But Lance on any other team would still have shooters. Put him on the Hawks and he has shooters. Put him on the Lakers and he has shooters. As long as Lance has shooters he can get the space. That is why I don't think he is a good fit next to Rose and Butler.

                          Lance is apart of the system and that system has allow him to flourish. But its not like he will go back to being two years ago Lance if he plays for the Hawks.

                          Your players are more valuable to you than to others. Sometimes you have to pay to keep the players that help make the system click. We never really recovered offensively when Miller signed with the Kings.

                          Was Brad Miller worth that money? No?

                          Was he worth it to make our offense that much better? yes
                          The system needs Lance as much as Lance needs the system.

                          I like Lance as much as the next Pacer fan but not at 12Million. That should not even be considered. Any pacer fan wanting to shell that cash over I gotta agree to disagree. Lance at most 10 and that's overpaying at a premium. Not my intent to evaluate this in detail but anyone wanting to pay Lance 10+ I hope realizes our bench is going to suffer tremendously. If Hibbert opts Luis is likely gone the following season. Hence the reason I suggested maxing out this rosters window above. The way Lance played tonite other than a big 3 at the end will perhaps get his value back down to where it belongs @ 8 tops. At that rate we may be able to re sign Granger. I don't know that his market will fetch over 6 at best. Again I don't want to dissect it. Just believe Rondo at 10 allows us to bring back Danny and they give up a draft pick. Not sure Lances value around the lg but he has his bid in for all star.

                          Simply wanted to point out that the Brad Miller situation is entirely different. JO did not want to play center and with the investment in JO we had we needed a legit center to play alongside him. Miller was grossly overpaid.





                          Originally posted by solid View Post
                          Lance is a gym rat with lots and lots of desire.
                          I said this last year: "He will be better next year".

                          I'll say it again.

                          Next year his shot will be a little better, his decision making will continue to improve.

                          Sign Lance. Hib, PG and Lance will be our big three for several years.

                          We can pick up ring chasers cheaply to fill out the bench.



                          Are we talking MAX contract for lance next season?? That's absurd. 4/36 is about right for Stephenson. Anything more and sayonara.

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                          • #88
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

                            I do think Doc Rivers is one of the best coaches in the NBA. I would put him in the top 5.

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                            • #89
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: A league of our own, Clippers just not on the same level

                              Doc was awful prior to the Big 3. Boston fans wanted him gone, and Bill Simmons wrote an article every other week with specific examples as to why he wanted him gone.

                              When the 4-9 Knicks extended their lead to double digits early in the third quarter of Fridays game, the catcalls began: just a few loudmouths at first screaming for coach Doc Rivers' head. When the lead hit 22, though, a chant spread through the TD Banknorth Garden: Fire Doc! Fire Doc! Fire Doc I half expected to see German villagers march onto the court carrying torches and looking for Boris Karloff.
                              How much would a new coach help? The Globe's Peter May says not much. Then again, who'd have predicted Jim O'Brien would take a team of perennial losers and bring them to the conference finals in a little over a year? Was that team more talented and capable than this one? Of course not. They were simply committed to a style of play and they executed consistently. That's what good coaches get players to do.
                              Ouch.


                              http://www.celticsblog.com/2006/12/3/641932/fire-doc

                              Doc is good at managing egos though.
                              Last edited by Since86; 01-21-2014, 12:13 PM.
                              Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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