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Another Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

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  • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

    [QUOTE=PacersPride;1584333]
    Originally posted by 5_7_Clash View Post

    how is not true. its just my opinion. i could give a detailed analysis but would you read it. i doubt it. so i will just say i believe overall Foster was a better rebounder. not a better defender. but Rodman was limited with his size whereas Foster was more of a combo backup big who could gaurd PF/C. ive always believed that to important when it comes to the front court rotation. plus Rodman was nukkin futts and Foster a leader. its a shame Foster did not have 2-3 seasons left.

    he coulda made a huge difference in last seasons miami series just like he did vs the bulls and thats n limited minutes. foster was as solid as it gets from a guy who did not need to score to impact a game.
    I actually WOULD read any analysis you'd like to put together and I think some other people would, too. I'd encourage you to do so.
    I appreciate that this is just your opinion but I feel like a statement like this is more about hyperbole and trying to prove your point than it is a well-informed argument. There isn't any universe where Foster was a better Dennis Rodman. None. And I love The Chairman and hate Dennis Rodman. But I'm sorry, it's just not anywhere close to a valid point.

    Dennis Rodman's Career Achievements:

    5ื NBA champion (1989–1990, 1996–1998)
    2ื NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1990–1991)
    2ื NBA All-Star (1990, 1992)
    2ื All-NBA Third Team (1992, 1995)
    7ื All-Defensive First Team (1989–1993, 1995–1996)
    All-Defensive Second Team (1994)
    7ื NBA rebounding champion (1992–1998)
    Detroit Pistons #10 retired

    Comment


    • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

      [QUOTE=5_7_Clash;1584356]
      Originally posted by PacersPride View Post

      I actually WOULD read any analysis you'd like to put together and I think some other people would, too. I'd encourage you to do so.
      I appreciate that this is just your opinion but I feel like a statement like this is more about hyperbole and trying to prove your point than it is a well-informed argument. There isn't any universe where Foster was a better Dennis Rodman. None. And I love The Chairman and hate Dennis Rodman. But I'm sorry, it's just not anywhere close to a valid point.

      Dennis Rodman's Career Achievements:

      5ื NBA champion (1989–1990, 1996–1998)
      2ื NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1990–1991)
      2ื NBA All-Star (1990, 1992)
      2ื All-NBA Third Team (1992, 1995)
      7ื All-Defensive First Team (1989–1993, 1995–1996)
      All-Defensive Second Team (1994)
      7ื NBA rebounding champion (1992–1998)
      Detroit Pistons #10 retired
      The worm should be in the HOF..... ... Foster never made an all star team. This is a silly discusion....

      Comment


      • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

        [QUOTE=OlBlu;1584367]
        Originally posted by 5_7_Clash View Post

        The worm should be in the HOF..... ... Foster never made an all star team. This is a silly discusion....
        Rodman is in the HOF. And yes, this is a silly discussion.

        Comment


        • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

          Originally posted by Johanvil View Post
          That doesn't make sense...
          Jeff started 45% of his NBA games. That includes essentially the entire 2004 season, where we were a damn good team (suggesting he wasn't merely starting because he was on a bad team).

          So while it would be fair to say he was off the bench more often (55%) than not, to phrase it as 'he's a lifelong backup' would not be fair because it would imply that Jeff was almost exclusively a bench player (and I think, considering the source, it is also a veiled insult to the quality of Foster as a player).

          Comment


          • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

            [QUOTE=5_7_Clash;1584356]
            Originally posted by PacersPride View Post

            I actually WOULD read any analysis you'd like to put together and I think some other people would, too. I'd encourage you to do so.
            I appreciate that this is just your opinion but I feel like a statement like this is more about hyperbole and trying to prove your point than it is a well-informed argument. There isn't any universe where Foster was a better Dennis Rodman. None. And I love The Chairman and hate Dennis Rodman. But I'm sorry, it's just not anywhere close to a valid point.

            Dennis Rodman's Career Achievements:

            5ื NBA champion (1989–1990, 1996–1998)
            2ื NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1990–1991)
            2ื NBA All-Star (1990, 1992)
            2ื All-NBA Third Team (1992, 1995)
            7ื All-Defensive First Team (1989–1993, 1995–1996)
            All-Defensive Second Team (1994)
            7ื NBA rebounding champion (1992–1998)
            Detroit Pistons #10 retired
            Rodman was a great player no doubt. but I dont believe Foster is as far behind to state its a silly discussion. Just to set the record straight. I used in comparison to the hans vs foster debate which imo is silly. Rodman was on teams that won championships and they are always given the accolades. I am not denying Rodman as great. but Foster was great in his own right. only due to lingering back issues did his career numbers not reach the record books. here is a great article to justify my position.

            http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.co...und-the-floor/

            Everyone who follows the NBA closely knows that Jeff Foster is one of the best rebounders in league history, particularly when it comes to offensive rebounding. Looking at offensive rebound rate (a metric that since 1971 has recorded the percentage of rebounds a player gets while he is on the court and is the best measure of rebounding ability), only four players in NBA history have a better career percentage than Jeff’s 15.2: Jayson Williams, Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone and Larry Smith. And overall, factoring in both offensive and defensive boards, Foster’s 18.93 is the eight best total rebound rate since they started recording it. (Rodman is first with an absolutely insane 23.44.)

            Comment


            • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

              [QUOTE=PacersPride;1584373]
              Originally posted by 5_7_Clash View Post

              Rodman was a great player no doubt. but I dont believe Foster is as far behind to state its a silly discussion. Just to set the record straight. I used in comparison to the hans vs foster debate which imo is silly. Rodman was on teams that won championships and they are always given the accolades. I am not denying Rodman as great. but Foster was great in his own right. only due to lingering back issues did his career numbers not reach the record books. here is a great article to justify my position.

              http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.co...und-the-floor/

              Everyone who follows the NBA closely knows that Jeff Foster is one of the best rebounders in league history, particularly when it comes to offensive rebounding. Looking at offensive rebound rate (a metric that since 1971 has recorded the percentage of rebounds a player gets while he is on the court and is the best measure of rebounding ability), only four players in NBA history have a better career percentage than Jeff’s 15.2: Jayson Williams, Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone and Larry Smith. And overall, factoring in both offensive and defensive boards, Foster’s 18.93 is the eight best total rebound rate since they started recording it. (Rodman is first with an absolutely insane 23.44.)
              When you take a look at the 4th year numbers comparison between Foster and Hans, it's in no way as silly as saying that Foster>D-Rod.

              Jeff Foster was most definitely a great cleaner on both sides of the floor. One of the best. I absolutely agree with you. And he gave a lot to this franchise, his teammates, and the fans both on and off the court. He will always be one of my favorite Pacers, no doubt.

              And with that... I'm out (of this discussion). *drop mic*
              Last edited by 5_7_Clash; 02-10-2013, 04:31 PM.

              Comment


              • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                [QUOTE=5_7_Clash;1584382]
                Originally posted by PacersPride View Post

                When you take a look at the 4th year numbers comparison between Foster and Hans, it's in no way as silly as saying that Foster>D-Rod.

                Jeff Foster was most definitely a great cleaner on both sides of the floor. One of the best. I absolutely agree with you. And he gave a lot to this franchise, his teammates, and the fans both on and off the court. He will always be one of my favorite Pacers, no doubt.

                And with that... I'm out (of this discussion). *drop mic*
                all im saying is Foster was more than a "lifelong" career backup posted by someone below.

                Comment


                • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                  Dang - it has been so long since a thread got locked around here.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                    [QUOTE=Heisenberg;1584368]
                    Originally posted by OlBlu View Post

                    Rodman is in the HOF. And yes, this is a silly discussion.
                    I thought he might be but I wasn't sure. He certainly deserved to be even though people here think Foster was better.... ...

                    Comment


                    • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                      [QUOTE=OlBlu;1584413]
                      Originally posted by Heisenberg View Post

                      I thought he might be but I wasn't sure. He certainly deserved to be even though people here think Foster was better.... ...
                      There are a lot of homers on this board, which is fine because it is a Pacers board afterall, but there may be only one or two people who actually believe this.

                      I mean everybody knows I love Dale Davis but even I wouldn't say that Dale Davis (who was better than Foster) was better than Rodman. The worm was a one of a kind animal.

                      *Yes I realize that I am opening up the Dale vs. Foster debate, but isn't that much better than having to hear about trading away Roy?


                      Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                      Comment


                      • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                        I'm not actually happy with Roy this season, but I do not want to trade him, he's anchored the D pretty darn well. The FG% is a worry, hard to believe a guy that big with a historically good touch around the rim is shooting that bad.

                        They said on the JMV radio show that of any player that has took a least 200 shoots around the rim Roy is dead last in FG% for the entire NBA.
                        "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

                        Comment


                        • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                          Originally posted by dal9 View Post
                          I would suggest the "whatever reason" that Biedrins stopped caring was "got a huge contract." Could that be relevant to Roy's struggles?
                          It's fallacious to assume that a player stops caring after he gets a huge contract. In fact, even Biedrins didn't simply stopped caring as I said in my original post.

                          He had a career season in the year that followed the signing of his huge contract. He was injured in the following season (09-10) and appeared in only 33 out of 82 games due to back and groin ailments. He had some good games at the beginning of the 10-11 season but he was injured again starting December 10 and after battling through injuries he sprained his ankle in March 16 which ended his season. He played 59 out of 82 games in that season. He is still being constantly re-injured every so often.
                          Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
                          Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

                          Panopticon

                          Originally posted by IrishPacer
                          Empty vessels make the most noise.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                            Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                            It's fallacious to assume that a player stops caring after he gets a huge contract. In fact, even Biedrins didn't simply stopped caring as I said in my original post.

                            He had a career season in the year that followed the signing of his huge contract. He was injured in the following season (09-10) and appeared in only 33 out of 82 games due to back and groin ailments. He had some good games at the beginning of the 10-11 season but he was injured again starting December 10 and after battling through injuries he sprained his ankle in March 16 which ended his season. He played 59 out of 82 games in that season. He is still being constantly re-injured every so often.
                            If a player stops caring, it is his defense that will suffer. That hasn't happened to Roy. He has developed some kind of mental block on offense and I think he will work hard to try and correct that in the off season........ ...

                            Comment


                            • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                              Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
                              I commend you on the time you put forth on your post. The law of averages is on Hibbert's side that his game will improve sooner or later. The point some have made is Hibbert isn't living up to his contract. It's frustrating to watch a player get paid for the play that made them an Allstar and then not produce like one.

                              We can cuss and discuss whether Hibbert deserves his contract until the cows come home, but the fact is by his own play and production he doesn't. Hibbert isn't playing well, and he even admitted as such in an interview with Brooke on tv last week.
                              People have the right to be frustrated about Roy's poor offensive production. That much is true. Roy is, of course, frustrated about this as well. That's one of the reasons that he isn't producing better as well, imo. He knows that people are frustrated about his offensive play and tries his best to prove them wrong but fail and fail again. But that's just my take.

                              Even if someone disagrees with my take, we would probably have to agree on one thing. Yes, people have the right to be frustrated by Roy's offensive play but they should acknowledge his overall play and impact in our team.

                              Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
                              Some have mentioned Tyson Chandler as a comparison to Hibbert. I did some research on Chandler last night. I looked at his production. People in the past have mentioned how much he meant to Dallas and now NY. That he's a "D" player 1st and not a scorer per se. IIRC, someone compared Chandler's salary to Hibbert's salary. I didn't realize they were both making 13.6 mil this year until I looked it up at Shamsports.
                              The difference is that Hibbert normally is a scorer. Not a 20 PPG one (almost no post player is a 20 PPG one, nowadays) but he is solid Center offensively. You can throw him the ball in the post and expect him to score. There is a reason why Chandler has only shot 39 of his 309 more than 3 feet away from the rim.

                              Yes, Chandler is indeed shooting 67% for the season. But 72.9% of his baskets are assisted and 87.3% of his shots are at the rim. By the way, he is shooting 16/39 from further than 3 feet. That's 41%.

                              Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
                              Here is what Chandler is giving for his 13. 6 mil.

                              11.5 PPG... 11.2 RPG... 67% FG... 66.7% FT

                              3-20 reb games in a row last week. 4-18 reb games this year... 27-10 reb or more games this year.


                              This is what Hibbert is giving for his 13.6 mil this year.

                              9.9 PPG... 8.3 RPG... 41.6% FG... 70% FT

                              The most rebs Hibbert has garnered in a game this year is 15. 15 games of 10 rebs or more in a game this season
                              Those stats are absolutely true. But it's very important to put them into context.

                              Tyson Chandler plays in a poor rebounding team. The New York Knicks are #22 in Total Rebounds per Game and #16 in Total Rebounding % (Rebound Rate). The Indiana Pacers are #3 in both categories. You can access those stats here -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ounds-per-game

                              Want to know the second best rebounder on the Knicks? It's Carmelo Anthony at 6.3 RPG. After him? It's their sixth man, JR Smith at 5 RPG. And he is a shooting guard. Here are the stats about this as well -> http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/...ew-york-knicks

                              The Pacers on the other hand? Roy is first with 8.3 RPG, Paul George follows with 7.8 RPG and David West comes third with 7.6 RPG. Simply put, there are less available rebound on the Pacers to grab as we tend to crash the boards collectively as a team. Plus, it's important to note that Chandler is playing 33.1 MPG while Roy plays 28.6 MPG. Here are the stats -> http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/...indiana-pacers


                              Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
                              Hibbert isn't producing for the salary he's being paid as Chandler is. Both Hibbert and Chandler are good "D" players, and contribute mightly to their teams "D".
                              Let's also put this into context. The Knicks are #16 in Defensive Efficiency, tied for #18 in Opponent FG% and tied for #25 in Opponent TS%. They are not a great defensive team and Chandler's impact on that end has not been as big this season. Ask any Knicks fan in any online forum and he should tell you that Tyson has not been as good as he was last year.

                              On the other hand, the Pacers are #1 in all of the aforementioned categories. Roy makes a real impact defensively. It isn't only about blocking shots. It is about altering tons of shots and making guards think twice before they enter our paint.


                              Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
                              IMO, this thread was a thread of frustration from Hibbert's play this season, and more to the loss to Toronto when the bigs of Toronto went 20 of 32 shooting for 62%. It is frustrating to watch AMIR JOHNSON get 14 and 14 and 20 year old ROOKIE Valanciunas get 14 and 13. Thus, I personally can understand the thread originator and others frustration. To me, they have a right to express their displeasure with Hibbert's play. Trading Hibbert might be an over re-action at the present, but if things haven't changed this time next year it might have some validity.

                              I knew after reading the thread title this was going to be a controversial thread. I was prepared, but unfortunately some took the thread to another level to the point of asking for the thread to be deleted. That bothered me more than any other comments in this thread. I want to thank ADMIN for ignoring the request. JMOAA
                              As I said before, I can understand the frustration. But don't lose perspective. Just like we cannot get too high about Paul George, we cannot get too low about Roy Hibbert. Frankly, I don't want to know what I will read when PG gets his max.

                              PS: Valanciunas will get a lot of double-doubles in his career. He would have gotten a bunch of them already if it wasn't for his injury that side-lined him for so long. He is a real Center. I'm just so glad that I'm able to see him night in and night out in the NBA. That's a privilege I didn't have when he was playing in Europe.
                              Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
                              Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

                              Panopticon

                              Originally posted by IrishPacer
                              Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                              • Re: Official Trade Roy Hibbert Thread

                                Originally posted by Hoop View Post
                                I'm not actually happy with Roy this season, but I do not want to trade him, he's anchored the D pretty darn well. The FG% is a worry, hard to believe a guy that big with a historically good touch around the rim is shooting that bad.

                                They said on the JMV radio show that of any player that has took a least 200 shoots around the rim Roy is dead last in FG% for the entire NBA.
                                Roy can hit 150 straight 3 pointers and his percentage would not be as good as Chandlers(somebody on twitter posted this).
                                @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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