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Could there be a Pacers way of building...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Major Cold View Post
    I think I am giving up on trying for the Pacers to be recognized. Who cares if fanboys like us?

    I actually agree with KStat that we are similar in liking by the common fan. The only way we can supersede the Pistons in being liked is if we dominate the Heat.
    That wouldn't even supersede it....the 2004 finals was a smash hit in the ratings primarily because the pistons were embarrassing the lakers. Then the lakers broke up, and there was no super-team left to hate, and fans went back to rooting for the new, fresh media superstars, and we were just in the way if wade, lebron, Howard, etc.
    Last edited by Kstat; 02-06-2013, 08:54 AM.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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    • #17
      Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

      Originally posted by Kstat View Post
      okay, back up the crazy train...



      that was about it?

      We had a 6-year run that included a championship, two straight conference titles, six 50+win seasons, and five division titles.

      You don't call that "sustaining?"

      You do realize only a handful of NBA teams have ever surpassed that level of excellence, right?



      uh....the draft/trade/FA ratio is roughly the same for both teams. The Pistons drafted Prince and Okur just like the Pacers drafted George and Stephenson. Moving on....



      okay...reality check...

      First off, the Pacers do play ugly basketball, by NBA standards. There is no pretty way to be 29th in scoring and 2nd in scoring defense. The masses are never going to applaud grind-it-out games. The one guy that commented on loving the Pacers' defensive style of play tonight was Chris Webber, who grew up-guess what-a Pistons fan.

      And yes, I know their offense has been trending upward lately, but winning games 110-100 has never been their strategy.





      No...you're really not. Nobody is talking about the Pacers outside of Indiana. Unless Paul Goerge becomes the next Kevin Durant/Tim Duncan type superstar, they never will. And George is simply not that kind of player. I'm not saying he will never be a superstar, but he's not as flashy as Durant or Kobe, and will never be a multiple-time MVP like Duncan. He's a star because he's a defensive stopper in addition to a pretty good scorer, and ESPN doesn't love to feature guys like that.

      Unless you mean to say that the Pistons were bad guys and universally resented in contrast to the Pacers' much more likeable bunch of upstanding citizens, in which case...you're still wrong, in both cases. Outside of Indiana, at least.



      ...the 2004 finals was the most watched series of the decade...

      Now, you could counter by saying nobody cared about Pistons/Spurs, in which case...you'd be right. Of course, by the same token, there was mass panic over the possibility of Pacers/Spurs in 1999 and Pacers/Blazers in 2000, and that Pacers team was actually an offensive juggernaut.



      ...you win games by making the other team miss bad shots and hit the floor...so, no. I understand that they are so much more enjoyable to watch from your perspective, but try to take off the Pacer fan hat and take a step back for a second.

      From an outsider's perspective, let me get you prepared for the next 5-6 years:

      1. Fans of big markets are not going to like you.
      2. Fans of the teams you eliminate are not going to like you.
      3. Fans of teams that value offense over defense are going to HATE you.
      4. Unless Paul George about doubles his scoring output to Kobe/TMac/Durant levels, he's never going to be a national media darling. Missed shots aren't sexy.

      When I said you can't compare this Pacers team to the 2004 Pistons, I said that because they hadn't accomplished anything yet. They are absolutely attempting to emulate them, however, albeit in a league that plays at a faster tempo. If they win a championship this way, I'd accept the comparison. Heck, I'd welcome it.

      You're not going to accept this, but the reality is this: The Pacers play in Indiana. The Pacers play a decided physical defense-first philosophy. Neither of those things will endear them nationally. Heck, it's not exactly endearing them locally either. The Pacers haven't been a major draw in Indianapolis since the Bird/Reggie days of free flowing offense and three point shooters at every position.

      I get that you're riding the Pacers high right now, and you can't see how the Pacers won't become the NBA's next great dynasty and loved by all...but that's just not going to happen. The hierarchy doesn't like being disturbed. You're going to knock much bigger names than Paul George out of the playoffs, and casual fans will get annoyed by it (unless it's Miami).

      God forbid you keep Carmelo or Rose out of the finals....the national media will be borderline-offended in the "why am I stuck in Indianapolis covering the NBA finals when I could be spending a week in New York/Chicago" sense.
      Puck the Fistons

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      • #18
        Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

        A third of the league tanks and it usually doesn't get them anywhere, OKC is one of very few exceptions of tanking actually working. It takes more to be successful then just tanking. Good contracts, great trades, free agents, good coaching staff and FO. Most of the teams that tank have been tanking for a decade.
        Garbage players get 1st round picks, (WTF)! All of the NBA must hate the Pacers! LOL

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        • #19
          Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

          I have never been a proponent of tanking as a means of improving your franchise. Notice I didn't say the best means, I said as a means. I completely reject the notion that tanking in any way helps a franchise. Smart trades, smart drafting, and a little luck can turn a franchise around. Getting a high lottery pick assures nothing, you need to get a high lottery pick in the right year, or get lucky that a player like Paul George falls to number 10, and you have to be smart enough as a franchise to realize how good he is going to be and draft the guy when he's available.

          There is no exact formula for building a winning team. How did the Pacers acquire David West? Why didn't he go to a large market marque team? I don't know, we got lucky, we did all we could to acquire him, but he could have easily gone to the Celtics - there was nothing brilliant the pacers did to acquire West.
          Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-06-2013, 09:25 AM.

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          • #20
            Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

            The new way is simple hire Larry Legend. For getting us Danny, Roy, David, Paul, Lance, George and Tyler. I would like to say once again.

            Thank you LEGEND
            Good is the enemy of Great


            We're changing the identity of our basketball team -- dramatically. We're a power post team -- a blood-and-guts, old-school, smash-mouth team that plays with size, strength, speed and athleticism. We attack the basket. . . . This is the new identity of our team. It was a great effort. I'm very proud of our guys."
            -- Frank Vogel.

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            • #21
              Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

              We've been fairly fortunate over the past couple of years. David West has been a huge factor these past two seasons. I hope it shows other top FAs that they should give small-market franchises a look. Sure, Bird had a lot to do with it, but its still a win in my book. We built strong through the draft, made some decent trades, and we were able to get a top FA to come to us.

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              • #22
                Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                The pistons did it long before the pacers did, and were the dominant team out of the east over the last decade. It changed nothing. So...no.

                In addition, the OKC model...please. So you're telling me the best formula is to land three consecutive top-five picks, and with them select two perennial all stars and a first ballot hall of famer, and then in between snag a borderline all star in the late teens?

                What genius thinks that's an easy formula to copy?
                He isn't necessarily saying that you have to land 3 top 5 picks and tank year in and year out, he is saying that it does however at least require 1 tank season. And I have heard many former GMs in this league for small market teams such as Kevin McHale, talk about how you can not win an NBA championship with out an NBA super star no not just a bunch of All Stars but a legit Super Star a Hall of Fame worthy player. And let's face it these caliber players don't come to cities like Indianapolis on free agent deals, so that leaves only 2 options to get the perceived Super Star that you must have to win the championship either A. trade for one which has been done in recent years but pretty much only to big market teams with other Super Stars already there such as Dwight to LA, Melo to NY (Amare at the time was considered a Super Star and people thought it meant they would get CP3 as well), but again these scenarios don't seem to be open to small market teams such as Pacers. So lastly it comes down to the draft and this is where small market teams have their one chance, Cleveland got their chance with LeBron till he broke their hearts because of this, OKC has been getting their chances now, SA got a million chances thanks to Duncan and amazing coaching, Chicago (while I know they are not small market they were also stuck in a rut neither landing high named FAs or trading for them got unstuck with the 1st overall pick) changed their chances of title contention with Rose. So yes there is a ton of merit to this argument that the only way to win in the NBA in a small market city is to do it by first losing and losing a lot, Detroit Pistons are literally the only exception to this rule in a very long time every other championship team in recent memory has had a Hall of Fame caliper player on the roster, so the Pacers are trying to join the very short list of just the Pistons. For a long time as a Pacer fan when the going got rough I was legitimately upset with Indiana for staying mediocre thinking along these same lines thinking that the mediocrity would never get us anywhere other than maybe some playoff trips but Larry did a phenomenal job of drafting and landing players that are much more skilled than where they were drafted. You could argue that we actually did indeed follow this model of losing to win when at 10 we landed Paul George now at pick 10 there usually is not an opportunity to land many players with top 5 pick talent but I think it is evident that if there was a redraft today that Paul would be a top 5 pick probably even a top 3 pick.

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                • #23
                  Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                  Who would've thought...

                  You hire a Champion to build a Championship team. This man has been successful in every level of basketball he's ever been a part of.



                  And for that, I echo the sentiments of the previous posters,

                  Thanks, Larry.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                    I'm pretty sure Kstats would be singing a different song if instead of Darko Detroit got Melo, Bosh or Wade, yes tanking is always going to be the way to go and if you have an smart FO that knows wtf they are doing is even better.

                    And yes the Pacers didn't "tank" but had they won more games we would be talking about Cole Aldrich or Xavier Henry as part of our core, thanks god for Utah too.
                    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                    • #25
                      Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                      It reinforces the concept of complimenting players, IMO, not necessarily which process to build teams is best.

                      The Pacers aren't all that special individually. Paul looks like he's turning into it though.
                      Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                        Originally posted by duke dynamite View Post
                        You hire a Champion to build a Championship team.
                        Someone named Michael Jordan begs to differ.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                          I think that we are an example of catching lightning in a bottle with our current roster...beamed for OKC really... Both are possible ways to build a contender, but neither are guaranteed... I don't think one way is more effective/efficient than the other... Outside of the big markets, you have to do one or the other b/c you are unable to buy the top talent... The Pacers were built similarly in the 90/2000's which lead to a contending team nearly annually...
                          Abba Zaba, your my only friend.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                            Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                            That wouldn't even supersede it....the 2004 finals was a smash hit in the ratings primarily because the pistons were embarrassing the lakers. Then the lakers broke up, and there was no super-team left to hate, and fans went back to rooting for the new, fresh media superstars, and we were just in the way if wade, lebron, Howard, etc.
                            It was a bit of that and the fact that Detroit's market is larger, the dispersement of Detroit fans because of the economic decline in the American auto industries, the media today is currently saturated, and many other variables.

                            And do you think that the Heat is not a super-team that could topple and draw new viewers in? I mean the Dallas series had a 10.6 to the Thunder series of 10.2. And while they weren't an 11.4, I think the Heat is more established as a superteam. I think it can happen. Most likely not with the Pacers because of market size. That and the Pistons were a dynasty in the NBA and in the last 20 years.

                            But there could be a team that can break that 11.4 mark. I agree that the Pacers are most likely not that. But that doesn't mean that they can't be successful in the NBA (which I know you are not arguing). Their mold is a viable one. And it is a lesson that you can find success in this league through more ways than tanking.

                            Tanking does have a better success rate I would argue though. Tanking or bottoming out, lottery picks are the best way to win. But it does not come risk free.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                              And here is a list of "the Pistons way":

                              Billups (3rd pick overall)

                              Hamilton (7th pick overall)

                              Ben Wallace (undrafted)

                              Prince (23rd overall)

                              Rasheed Wallace (4th pick overall)

                              OK so out of the 5 Pistons starters 3 were high draft picks, they also had Darko (2nd pick overall), imagine if instead of Darko they got either Wade, Melo or Bosh? call me crazy but the "Pistons way" is harder to pull off than the "OKC way".
                              @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                                And here is a list of "the Pistons way":

                                Billups (3rd pick overall)

                                Hamilton (7th pick overall)

                                Ben Wallace (undrafted)

                                Prince (23rd overall)

                                Rasheed Wallace (4th pick overall)

                                OK so out of the 5 Pistons starters 3 were high draft picks, they also had Darko (2nd pick overall), imagine if instead of Darko they got either Wade, Melo or Bosh? call me crazy but the "Pistons way" is harder to pull off than the "OKC way".

                                What finding former lottery picks that either burned their bridges, never matured, or were given away for trash...and then having them gel together and become what they were drafted to do...together...united. Yeah that seems a lot harder than tanking and waiting on your superstars to grow.

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