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What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

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  • #46
    Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

    Also,to those that are saying West's value is sky high:

    Teams are more likely to try to snag him as a FA this summer then risk renting him for the rest of the year.

    Expirings are typically useful if the team is looking for capspace/someone they can cut out of the equation. Anybody that trades for West is likely interested in him longer term than one season, meaning they won't be wanting to give up quality pieces for a potential half year rental.

    Yes, his value is high. However, there's more to dealing for him than an "expiring" deal and his excellent production.

    Tyler, on the other hand, is a nice expiring deal that could net us a pick/veteran scorer. Hell, I'd be happy with cutting Tyler and signing Redd. Actually, cut DJ and sign Redd.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

      Originally posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
      Surprised? No.

      Disappointed? Yes.
      My exact thought too.
      Never forget

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

        Originally posted by Derek2k3 View Post
        Also,to those that are saying West's value is sky high:

        Teams are more likely to try to snag him as a FA this summer then risk renting him for the rest of the year.

        Expirings are typically useful if the team is looking for capspace/someone they can cut out of the equation. Anybody that trades for West is likely interested in him longer term than one season, meaning they won't be wanting to give up quality pieces for a potential half year rental.

        Yes, his value is high. However, there's more to dealing for him than an "expiring" deal and his excellent production.

        Tyler, on the other hand, is a nice expiring deal that could net us a pick/veteran scorer. Hell, I'd be happy with cutting Tyler and signing Redd. Actually, cut DJ and sign Redd.
        Not if a team thinks he puts them over the edge with playoff contention, that's where teams always overpay and exactly where we need to be looking. I worry that that the team may be more concerned about "butts in seats" THIS season rather than future deep playoff runs.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

          I'm not sure there's anything we can do that I would do. Obviously I want a better bench, but is that going to happen through a mid-season trade without losing a current starter? I don't think so.

          I mean if you wanted to trade Paul George for another big man to have a really good 3-man rotation up front, you could do that and patch the wings with roleplayers (basically, at best, a guy who can defend and hit open shots and play within the offense), but short of something like that I still like our healthy starting 5, so it leaves me with the following assets (some of which should be "assets" with the quotation marks at this point):

          Lance Stephenson
          DJ Augustin
          Gerald Green
          Sam Young
          Tyler Hansbrough
          Ian Mahinmi
          Ben Hansbrough
          Orlando Johnson
          Miles Plumlee
          Jeff Pendergraph
          2013 or 2014 1st round pick
          2013 2nd round pick
          2014 2nd round pick

          Basically, that's it. Short of packaging one of the above with a 1st rounder, I'm not sure an upgrade is obtainable with that bunch. Maybe Lance, Tyler, and a #1 could get you a really good backup 4? I'm not sure about that, though.

          So if it were me, I'd be fishing for deals like that to see if anything interesting came along, but odds are we're just stuck right now.

          Hopefully when Danny comes back and Lance plays with the backups again, that'll be enough to bring us back to how we were playing last year because at that point you have our very solid starting 5 and two worth-playing bench players in Lance and Ian, and you see how far they can take you if Ben, Gerald/Sam, or Tyler don't give you any more than they already are.

          I think we just need another summer rebuild for this bench. Let DJ and Tyler walk, maybe keep Sam Young around, you're stuck with Green, you want Ian, so see what you can do about the backup 4 and backup 1.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

            IMO, I would try to pry Millsap from Utah. They have four bigs they won't be able to pay. They have Bird Rights on him and if we traded for Millsap we would obtain his Bird Rights. Right now, that is so much more important to us than anything else, because we are going to be over the cap and relegated to MLE players or worse. Millsap IMO is going to get a deal in the 10-12M per year range, similar to Granger and Iguadala, but for four years. I don't know that the Jazz would actually make Millsap available, however and worry about what to do with their cap space after they sign him long-term. They also have to sign Jefferson, so they may have to make a decision on one of them. IMO, they should keep Jefferson, because he is more of a foundational player and Kanter and Favors will be able to be more positionally flexibile with Jefferson.

            IMO, I think the Pacers cap situation has been set up with a succinct plan going forward. The way that a lot of these contracts line up makes them affordable to keep going forward. Here is what I would do:

            I would trade for Millsap by sending Hansborough, our unprotected first, and Augustin. I think they could warrant signing both Jefferson and a much cheaper Hansborough and then give more minutes to Favors and Kanter and still have a great big rotation.

            I would offer West a four year, $28M contract. This is probably a discount for us in year one, but I don't foresee someone giving West a monster four year deal. I could see a two year deal in the 20-24M range, but then he will probably be relegated to smaller veteran deals as a 35 year old free agent. West will probably get offered the full MLE by a contender, so our offer of $7M per year pays him more than a contender could, yet gives West a little more longevity playing for a good team than a bad team with cap space is going to offer on a shorter deal. I think Millsap could help West be effective longer into his career. I think West is a consummate pro and would still get his 30 minutes per night. And we know he takes care of himself physically, so that makes me feel much better about paying him for four years.

            I would also resign Millsap for roughly four years and $44M. Millsap can move over and play SF to spell Granger and we can really shorten our rotation to four bigs/five front court players. Adding in three guards gives us a bad *** eight man rotation (Hill, George, and Lance?). Nine-man if you add Green for minutes during the regular season.

            I let Granger walk at the end of his deal and pay George. That or I would see if Granger would be willing to take something in the range of $6-7M, which is what we could afford. I would focus on drafting some wings and ball handlers over the next couple of years and the potential to make another trade if Plumlee develops well. Think a Mahinmi trade to free up cash to pay Granger if healthy.

            I just think that we have such managable contracts at this point, that we can be a sub-Luxury Tax team and still put out a very good rotation. I ran the numbers on all of these scenarios with future draft pick salaries and we can stay under the cap if we don't just throw money at guys. I'm looking at you Donnie and Pritch.

            Rotation:

            PG - Hill, Lance, -- Ben H.
            SG - George, -- Green, Johnson
            SF - Granger, -- Young,
            PF - West, Millsap, -- Pendergraph
            C - Hibbert, Mahinmi, -- Plumlee
            Last edited by pacergod2; 12-12-2012, 01:59 PM.
            "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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            • #51
              Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

              A lot of what I would suggest is dependant on when and how Granger comes back. If he comes in before the deadline, we are still in the hunt for the playoffs, I probably stand pat. Even if we give Danny 12-20 mpg with the 2nd unit I think he makes a big difference for us. If the season is shot down by the time DG gets back, I would look at trading West to the Raptors for Calderon or Barngiani?sp. Salaries match and both would help us. Is there any way TPTB can staret dealing with West's agent befor the season is over to get an idea of what they are thinking? I really hate to see West walk for nothing at the end of the season.

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              • #52
                Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                it should always come down to who are you trading and who are you getting, not just we have to do something. If we could trade Hansboro for Andre Miller I would take that without any second thoughts but if we are talking Paul George for Andre Miller I would say no way.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                  Our starting lineup of Hill, PG, DG, West, and Hibbert is championship caliber when running on all cylinders. Why mess that up when our bench is the culprit for our struggles both this year and last year? Our starters were easily top 5 in the NBA after Hill entered the lineup last season - our record proved that. They then took the champs to the brink. Didn't the starters even have a positive plus/minus in the Heat series? Combine that with the fact that the starters can improve even more - Hill, Hibbert, and PG all have room to grow (PG already has) and West has recovered from his ACL. I fully expect Hibbert's shot to eventually start falling, which is really his only statistical downfall this year - his defense is actually up. Danny is only 29 too. And unlike some, I believe West's style of play gives him at least another 2-3 years of solid play. I wouldn't touch the starting lineup unless you are certain Danny isn't coming back or West is leaving.

                  The bench on the other hand is just brutal. Mahinmi, Lance, and Young are about the only bench players I would keep. Young isn't even that good, but he's cheap. Yes Hansbrough and DJ suck, but they do have value as expirings and I'm certain there are a few teams that would be intrigued by Hansbrough's flashes, youth, and energy. Green may have some minor value as well (he hasn't been terrible this year). We also have all our picks and some sweetner pieces in Plumlee/Johnson

                  Some trade ideas:

                  - Minnesota has 2 pricey backup PG's (Ridnour was likely on signed b/c of Rubio's injury) and now that Rubio is back, they may make a move for an expiring so they have money to spend this offseason. JJ Barea for an expiring and 2nd rounder may work. I'd throw in multiple firsts & Plumlee if Derrick Williams was in play too (I believe they will trade him)

                  - Dallas would love to shed cap for next summer (sign two max players), so maybe Marion and Carter are in play for expirings/picks. Those two are off the books the following year when PG is up for a new deal. Both are still productive vets who know how to score. Maybe we snag Beabois in the deal.

                  - Orlando will likely shop Reddick, who could likely be had for an expiring & 1st

                  - I could see Atlanta, who is extremely thin up front, having interest in something centered around Hansbrough (additional pieces) for Devin Harris, who is likely leaving this offseason anyways. ATL already has Teague/Williams. Harris could be resigned and play an Andre Miller type role for us.

                  Bottom line, if DG can get healthy and we can get some proven vets on our bench who can score, this team can contend. Isn't that what we are looking to accomplish, being able to contend? However, if for some reason management feels DG won't be back, or West implies he is leaving this summer, then yes, move West for the best package.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                    [QUOTE=purdue101;1544915]Our starting lineup of Hill, PG, DG, West, and Hibbert is championship caliber when running on all cylinders. Why mess that up when our bench is the culprit for our struggles both this year and last year? Our starters were easily top 5 in the NBA after Hill entered the lineup last season - our record proved that. They then took the champs to the brink. Didn't the starters even have a positive plus/minus in the Heat series? Combine that with the fact that the starters can improve even more - Hill, Hibbert, and PG all have room to grow (PG already has) and West has recovered from his ACL. I fully expect Hibbert's shot to eventually start falling, which is really his only statistical downfall this year - his defense is actually up. Danny is only 29 too. And unlike some, I believe West's style of play gives him at least another 2-3 years of solid play. I wouldn't touch the starting lineup unless you are certain Danny isn't coming back or West is leaving.

                    This is absolute nonsense. Our starters were not top five in the NBA last year and won't be this year or next year either. The Pacers played way over their heads and their record this proves that. They won a playoff series but they would have been swept by Orlando if Howard had not been hurt. The Pacers didn't take Miami to the brink. They won a couple of games while Miami made adjustments to playing without Bosh. Then Wade and James kicked it in gear and beat your supposed top five starters almost by themselves. At least get serious about what you say. This team with those starters was going to be fifth or sixth in the east this year because other teams did more with their starters in the off season. The Pacers, even with Granger would now be behind Miami, NY, Brooklyn, Boston, Philly and perhaps the Bulls when Rose comes back. I am very glad you are not a general manager of this team. You are drinking blue and gold koolaid.... ...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                      [QUOTE=OlBlu;1544922]
                      Originally posted by purdue101 View Post
                      Our starting lineup of Hill, PG, DG, West, and Hibbert is championship caliber when running on all cylinders. Why mess that up when our bench is the culprit for our struggles both this year and last year? Our starters were easily top 5 in the NBA after Hill entered the lineup last season - our record proved that. They then took the champs to the brink. Didn't the starters even have a positive plus/minus in the Heat series? Combine that with the fact that the starters can improve even more - Hill, Hibbert, and PG all have room to grow (PG already has) and West has recovered from his ACL. I fully expect Hibbert's shot to eventually start falling, which is really his only statistical downfall this year - his defense is actually up. Danny is only 29 too. And unlike some, I believe West's style of play gives him at least another 2-3 years of solid play. I wouldn't touch the starting lineup unless you are certain Danny isn't coming back or West is leaving.

                      This is absolute nonsense. Our starters were not top five in the NBA last year and won't be this year or next year either. The Pacers played way over their heads and their record this proves that. They won a playoff series but they would have been swept by Orlando if Howard had not been hurt. The Pacers didn't take Miami to the brink. They won a couple of games while Miami made adjustments to playing without Bosh. Then Wade and James kicked it in gear and beat your supposed top five starters almost by themselves. At least get serious about what you say. This team with those starters was going to be fifth or sixth in the east this year because other teams did more with their starters in the off season. The Pacers, even with Granger would now be behind Miami, NY, Brooklyn, Boston, Philly and perhaps the Bulls when Rose comes back. I am very glad you are not a general manager of this team. You are drinking blue and gold koolaid.... ...
                      Heading into the Miami series, we were 12-3 once Hill came into the starting lineup. That's .800 and was tops in the league. It was very well documented by the national media too, particularly during the Miami series. Say what you want about the Miami series, but the majority of nationally recognized NBA reporters predicted us to win that series after game 2 or 3 - we clearly had them rattled. And to think, that team can improve (mainly PG and West).

                      We are only 1.5 games back from 4th in conference without our best player, our starting C shooting almost 10% below his average, and one of the worst benches in the league. If anything, I think that shows you the value of some of our starters.
                      Last edited by purdue101; 12-12-2012, 08:20 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                        [QUOTE=purdue101;1544930]
                        Originally posted by OlBlu View Post

                        Heading into the Miami series, we were 12-3 once Hill came into the starting lineup. That's .800 and was tops in the league. It was very well documented by the national media too, particularly during the Miami series. Say what you want about the Miami series, but the majority of nationally recognized NBA reporters predicted us to win that series after game 2 or 3 - we clearly had them rattled. And to think, that team can improve (mainly PG and West).

                        We are only 1.5 games back from 4th in conference without our best player, our starting C shooting almost 10% below his average, and one of the worst benches in the league. If anything, I think that shows you the value of some of our starters.
                        Miami was never rattled. They adjusted and blew the Pacers away. Again, the Pacers way overperformed last year (management's words, not mine) and they were bound to come down this year with the current bench or with last years bench, it would have made no difference. Granger is the best scorer on this team but he isn't the best player any longer. He might not be coming back. The Pacers make the play offs as a 6 thru 8 seed and lose in the first round of the playoffs unless they draw a team minus their superstar like last year. You greatly overestimate this team and you were spoiled by last years success. The Colts are going to be the same way next year. They have way overperformed this year and that won't happen next year and they will win fewer games. Luck has stayed upright against all odds and he might not do that next year...... ...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                          Originally posted by OlBlu View Post
                          This is absolute nonsense. Our starters were not top five in the NBA last year and won't be this year or next year either. The Pacers played way over their heads and their record this proves that.
                          Actually it kind of proves nothing...

                          We haven't seen our starting 5 this year...

                          We lost one B level starter and look what happened to our record...

                          Our bench is a bit crappier as well... But not by much... They were awful last year too...

                          I still believe our complete starting five with a hopefully more cohesive bench could still make for one hell of a fighter this summer...

                          And I think we'll have a much better win % by the end of the season... We're still making adjustments but we've been on a more upward trajectory lately...
                          Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

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                          • #58
                            Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                            [QUOTE=OlBlu;1544969]
                            Originally posted by purdue101 View Post

                            Miami was never rattled. They adjusted and blew the Pacers away. Again, the Pacers way overperformed last year (management's words, not mine) and they were bound to come down this year with the current bench or with last years bench, it would have made no difference. Granger is the best scorer on this team but he isn't the best player any longer. He might not be coming back. The Pacers make the play offs as a 6 thru 8 seed and lose in the first round of the playoffs unless they draw a team minus their superstar like last year. You greatly overestimate this team and you were spoiled by last years success. The Colts are going to be the same way next year. They have way overperformed this year and that won't happen next year and they will win fewer games. Luck has stayed upright against all odds and he might not do that next year...... ...
                            I don't recall management saying we overperformed - where? From my recollection after the previous season, the goal was to win a playoff series, which we did. We had the 5th best record in the league and our bench, with the exception of backup PG, was terrible. If anything, that gives further credit to the starters. PG and West have since improved and Hibbert's shooting will come around. Hill is relatively flat from last year. If we can get Danny back and retool our bench, this team will be right back in the thick of things with the teams you referenced (Brooklyn, NYK, Boston, etc).

                            The Pacers will never have a Lebron, Durant, etc., but starting 1 thru 5, we have above average players at all positions. The bench just sucks - I don't think ppl truly realize how bad they have been. If you look at 5 man unit stats, our starters have been really good this year, and that's with Stephenson instead of Granger. The bench has cost us at least 3-4 games, which would put our record in the 3/4 range of the East, and again, that's without Danny.

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                            • #59
                              Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                              [QUOTE=purdue101;1545018]
                              Originally posted by OlBlu View Post

                              I don't recall management saying we overperformed - where? From my recollection after the previous season, the goal was to win a playoff series, which we did. We had the 5th best record in the league and our bench, with the exception of backup PG, was terrible. If anything, that gives further credit to the starters. PG and West have since improved and Hibbert's shooting will come around. Hill is relatively flat from last year. If we can get Danny back and retool our bench, this team will be right back in the thick of things with the teams you referenced (Brooklyn, NYK, Boston, etc).

                              The Pacers will never have a Lebron, Durant, etc., but starting 1 thru 5, we have above average players at all positions. The bench just sucks - I don't think ppl truly realize how bad they have been. If you look at 5 man unit stats, our starters have been really good this year, and that's with Stephenson instead of Granger. The bench has cost us at least 3-4 games, which would put our record in the 3/4 range of the East, and again, that's without Danny.
                              Management released a statement saying that the Pacers overperformed last year. I know others here saw it too. It may have been when they started working on the bench. Yes, we have above average starters at their position. Contending teams have superstars in some of those positions and that is hwat makes the difference. We won't be retooling the bench, what you see is what you have. Granger is not going to help this much and I would have him playing off of the bench when he returns. That might help that group. I want to see Lance play and develop and see if he can be a star...... ...

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: What should the Pacers do at the upcoming trade deadline?

                                [QUOTE=OlBlu;1545639]
                                Originally posted by purdue101 View Post

                                Management released a statement saying that the Pacers overperformed last year. I know others here saw it too. It may have been when they started working on the bench. Yes, we have above average starters at their position. Contending teams have superstars in some of those positions and that is hwat makes the difference. We won't be retooling the bench, what you see is what you have. Granger is not going to help this much and I would have him playing off of the bench when he returns. That might help that group. I want to see Lance play and develop and see if he can be a star...... ...
                                I'll believe it when I see it - I highly doubt management would downplay a teams success.

                                The chances of Indy getting and retaining a superstar in our market are slim to none, why don't people get that? Lebron, Dwight, Rose, Durant, etc., aren't lining up to live in Indy. What else do you suggest we do? Trying to acquire above average borderline all-stars at each position is really our only option, and that's exactly what we're doing. You want them to tear it down only to rebuild it in similar fashion? A starting lineup of Hill/PG/DG/West/Hibbert had the best winning % in the NBA last year after Hill entered the lineup in early April. We finished 5th in the league in overall record for the season. Our starters had a positive +/- against the eventual champions. And to think, that lineup can actually improve (mainly PG and West, which has actually happened). You act as if we are miles from having a contending starting lineup when facts prove otherwise. I always rely on facts, not opinion.

                                Look at the Grizzlies - similar market, similar limitations, similar approach of building a team, similar roster. The only difference is their bench is producing, Gay is on the floor and not in a suit like Granger, and Gasol is not in a shooting slump like Hibbert. That team is certainly contending material and proving the model works, just like we proved it worked last year.

                                As is stands today, our team is #1 in defense %, #2 in points allowed, AND #1 in rebounding - we just can't score the ball. Our offense is 2nd to last, however our top scorer is out, Hibbert is in a terrible slump, and our bench is atrocious. I can guarantee you Hibbert won't shoot 37% all season long and I believe our bench can be improved via trades. So, assuming Danny returns, I believe we can certainly be a top team in the league considering our defensive/rebounding identity. If we could produce the same offensive efficiency as last year, which was only middle of the league, we would have a 6.4 point differential this year, which would be 2nd in the East.

                                You're entitled to your opinion, all I'm saying is that facts/stats prove otherwise when it comes to our starters. We just need Danny back and a trade or two involving the bench - that is certainly within the realm of possibilty.

                                From ESPN last year - "The Pacers have outscored opponents by 75 points with its starting lineup (Paul George, Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert, George Hill and David West) on the court together this postseason, the best plus-minus for any five-player combination in the playoffs. When any other combination of Pacers has been on the court, Indiana has been outscored by 48. In the Eastern Conference Semifinals, the starters are +47 and all other lineups are -74. "
                                ESPN Stats & Information
                                Last edited by purdue101; 12-13-2012, 05:57 PM.

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