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Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

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  • #46
    Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
    The standard comment is about Paul George and others being allowed to make a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots and keep their minutes. It seems Lance is in jeopardy of getting pulled if he makes one turnover or misses one shot, and almost certainly if there are two. That might be a slight exaggeration, but not by much.
    Could it be the others not only have earned more slack already, but also that they bring more to the table than Lance does? It's not like Lance can guard people the way Paul can (in general, obviously the GSW game not a great game), for example.

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    • #47
      Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

      Originally posted by MAStamper View Post
      Could it be the others not only have earned more slack already, but also that they bring more to the table than Lance does? It's not like Lance can guard people the way Paul can (in general, obviously the GSW game not a great game), for example.
      That idea has some merit. However, recently I've seen Paul George make more defensive mistakes than Lance. Paul does have some nice moments on defense because of his size and athleticism, but I'm not convinced Lance won't develop similar strengths with more play behind his belt. He has a lot of physical talent as well.

      Right now, I would say that if the offense is sputtering, Lance brings more to the table for the Pacers RIGHT NOW than PG does.
      "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

        Originally posted by Peck View Post
        Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

        Is he a point guard like Mark Jackson? No but then again Stephan Marbury wasn’t a point guard like Mark Jackson either but he was still a point guard.

        Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pass? Yes. Can he run an offensive set? Yes.

        Please don’t give me the “he can’t guard the oppositions point guard” because I’m telling you D.J. Augustin can’t guard that spot either.

        Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

        If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

        Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

        In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.
        Westbrook defensively is a pg probably(it's debatable I know) the best defender in the league at guarding the ball.


        Lance to me can play pg offensively but defensively I have always viewed him as a 2nd wing guy. He guards the other teams 2nd best wing who ideally is an isolation player for example players who run off screens I wouldn't want Lance guarding(his lack of laterally speed kills him).


        I love the scoring guard like Westbrook as long as they defend their spot Lance can play pg fine as long as he cross matches on defense. But I always preach "you are what you can defend"


        But with our offense you can play "pg" at the SG spot. The problem is Vogel has Lance has the 5th option when he should be the 2nd only to Hill//West PnR/ 2-man game.

        As a coach I would salivate at the ways you can use Lance(he gives you tons of options to run) but it doesn't seem our coach does.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

          Originally posted by Major Cold View Post
          His defensive rotations on defense are making Tyler look adept. It wasn't his offense, it was his off the ball rotations. When the pnr is applied our opposite wing is suppose to crash the paint. He is not doing that. At all. You all seem to think that the pnr roll problems are solely on Hill and Roy. And that is not the case. pnr defense is on the entire team.
          I agree with this, but I also agree with Eleazar that at this point I'd rather have his shooting and on-ball defense vs whatever we are calling Augustin's output.

          DJ gets beat off the dribble almost as a reflex. Even when he picked Jack's pocket it was on the backside so that had he missed he would have given JJack the clear line right to the lane. I want to have DJ playing if he's playing well, but he's been such a problem so far that I just don't see why they keep working him when instead they could have Lance be out there as the bigger, physical PG on defense and a guy that can threaten on offense more.

          Right now DJ is getting crushed on the offensive PnR, he never seems to find a smooth pass into the roll and often gets trapped rather than even finding his man on the PnPop.

          BTW, I complained to Gnome about this (and a Warriors fan) during the game. 1st quarter DJ comes in with the game at 20-16 (Ian is hitting his 2nd FT when he enters). This turns into a 10 point deficit within 6 minutes of game, for a total swing of -14. That was nearly the game right there.

          They pulled it back to down 6 by the time he left, and a small bit of that was DJ finally making a bucket. But less than 4 minutes after he'd left the Pacers had retaken the lead.

          Ultimately they slumped to end the 1st half and got really tired/sloppy in the 3rd, but maybe if you keep that -14 closer to -4 then the main unit can get a buffer to withstand the 3rd quarter slump. And I feel like Lance can help with that more.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

            Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
            That idea has some merit. However, recently I've seen Paul George make more defensive mistakes than Lance. Paul does have some nice moments on defense because of his size and athleticism, but I'm not convinced Lance won't develop similar strengths with more play behind his belt. He has a lot of physical talent as well.

            Right now, I would say that if the offense is sputtering, Lance brings more to the table for the Pacers RIGHT NOW than PG does.
            IMO, the contrasts between Lance and Paul are a fun example of how expectations and influence play and perspectives, both in fans, and the players themselves.

            I think it's safe to say that Lance had an uphill battle coming into the start of the season. Lower expectations by fans and the team. Now that he struck pay dirt in the current circumstance, people are excited about his potential (he has exceeded expectations), and he's likely feeling pretty good about himself, which is reflected in his play. He plays loose and with passion/assertiveness.

            Paul on the other hand came in with very high expectations (some even think he's on a trajectory towards stardom), and then got thrust into even higher expectations where he was looked at by many as a "replacement" for Granger. Almost impossible for him to live up to this expectation, and he's more or less lived up to that. He starts feeling bad about his play and he's likely in his own head.

            What's funny is that they're both 22, they were both drafted in the same class, and both are playing pretty darn well if you step back from your expectations.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

              Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
              I agree with this, but I also agree with Eleazar that at this point I'd rather have his shooting and on-ball defense vs whatever we are calling Augustin's output.

              DJ gets beat off the dribble almost as a reflex. Even when he picked Jack's pocket it was on the backside so that had he missed he would have given JJack the clear line right to the lane. I want to have DJ playing if he's playing well, but he's been such a problem so far that I just don't see why they keep working him when instead they could have Lance be out there as the bigger, physical PG on defense and a guy that can threaten on offense more.

              Right now DJ is getting crushed on the offensive PnR, he never seems to find a smooth pass into the roll and often gets trapped rather than even finding his man on the PnPop.

              BTW, I complained to Gnome about this (and a Warriors fan) during the game. 1st quarter DJ comes in with the game at 20-16 (Ian is hitting his 2nd FT when he enters). This turns into a 10 point deficit within 6 minutes of game, for a total swing of -14. That was nearly the game right there.They pulled it back to down 6 by the time he left, and a small bit of that was DJ finally making a bucket. But less than 4 minutes after he'd left the Pacers had retaken the lead.

              Ultimately they slumped to end the 1st half and got really tired/sloppy in the 3rd, but maybe if you keep that -14 closer to -4 then the main unit can get a buffer to withstand the 3rd quarter slump. And I feel like Lance can help with that more.
              Definately the turning point of the game. But sadly that seems to be a pattern, DJ absolutely is a big part of that problem but generally its when the bench comes in that we have such a huge dropoff.


              Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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              • #52
                Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                I agree with picking a choosing who to bench when one defensively screws up. We all were frustrated when Troy failed one on one defense, but McBob was bench or Tyler because of their failed rotations. So what is worse? Failed rotations or failed one on one?

                The rotations helped failed one on one situations. And that will break down no matter how good of a defender you have. Bruce Bowen was a fantasic one on one defender. But if it weren't for the rotations for him to funnel the Kobe's into, I don't think he gets noticed enough.

                The rotations are a fail safe. It is the breaks on an elevator system. And if the one on one fails you need the breaks.

                So if we all know what was important to JOB, the system. Has Vogel been any different? And not just with benching a player who fails to rotate, but HIS rotations in and of themselves.

                He is a young coach with unfamiliar players, and he is showing struggles in covering up their weakness with his system. I want Lance on he court more because I think he will learn to rotate eventually. If Tyler got better, Lance should. Roy struggled early in his career, but now is a fantastic in the paint helpside defender.

                Lance getting benched has nothing to do with Bird not being here, his attitude, humbling him (I would buy this more than anything), or any other reason besides that Vogel values help side defense as much as his predecessor
                Last edited by Major Cold; 12-04-2012, 02:16 PM.

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                • #53
                  Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                  Originally posted by docpaul View Post
                  This. Never understood why people want to try to explain away his obvious point guard skills.
                  It's simple. He can't run a team offense.

                  I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)

                  But even if he learns that, is point really where we want him? Maybe..in a structure like the Pacers where the point guard's job does seem to be to score. But I'd really like to see Lance in the context of a shooting guard, where there is a point guard and Lance is a secondary play maker. With the thought process of "make plays for myself first, make plays for others second." Because really, Lance's best quality in highschool and his one year of college was scoring. And his ability to score was why Larry liked him.

                  He's made a huge jump this year. He's certainly been the best bench player and deserves his spot in the starting lineup. But he did it by improving upon the things I, and many other people who criticized Lance, said he'd need to improve on. His shooting and the ability to play within a team concept. But perhaps expecting a larger role in the starting lineup would be too much for him. As much as he has a different mentality than PG, (who I think the idea of a "larger role" has gotten too, without Danny) he may not be able to handle it in terms of the way teams defend him. There's nothing wrong with taking it slow with Lance. That seems to have worked so far.

                  That all being said, Like Hill as a starting PG because he is the best player capable of playing pg, when Danny returns..Lance may still be the best option at backup PG. I'm willing to wager that Lance learns how to rotate far before DJ learns how to defend at anything. And letting Lance just do what he wants to do with the ball may be a better idea than having DJ try to run an actual offense with that group. Defensively, I don't know that it'll matter that much in the second unit, and offensively it pretty much HAS to be an improvement.

                  if it doesn't work than it doesn't work, but DJ isn't doing anything, and when Danny returns, someone is going to lose their playing time, and at least Young does something on one side of the ball.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                    Originally posted by Major Cold View Post
                    I agree with picking a choosing who to bench when one defensively screws up. We all were frustrated when Troy failed one on one defense, but McBob was bench or Tyler because of their failed rotations. So what is worse? Failed rotations or failed one on one?

                    Generally speaking failed rotations are mental mistakes while failed one-on-one are physical mistakes.

                    Only thing worse than mental mistakes is lack of effort. Physical mistakes a coach can live with

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                      Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                      Generally speaking failed rotations are mental mistakes while failed one-on-one are physical mistakes.

                      Only thing worse than mental mistakes is lack of effort. Physical mistakes a coach can live with
                      I completely agree. But the next question is where is the best place to learn from the mental lapse? On the court to enhance muscle memory and reaction time or on the bench with an outside perspective and a coach pointing out the rotations?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                        Originally posted by Sookie View Post
                        It's simple. He can't run a team offense. I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)
                        Thanks for the good comments here.

                        I'm not totally convinced that our offensive scheme is really predicated on requiring a floor general, though.

                        In other words, the starting lineup at the end of last year worked well enough for us, and it featured Hill as the PG. We had great offensive efficiency, especially out of the first team.

                        I agree that while Lance will never be a Rondo-like "dictate the offense"-kind-of-player, I believe he still has the proper skill set to play the position. Additionally, he probably has fairly strong potential to be an effective post feeder which is a fundamentally important skill for our offense.

                        I'm like you... I like more traditional floor general type of point guards. That's not in our cards though... unless we make some sort of dramatic trade that shakes up the core of the team.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                          Originally posted by Sookie View Post
                          It's simple. He can't run a team offense.

                          I can't tell you exactly what qualities/traits contribute to that. But I can see it. (and I'll say the same thing about Hill.)

                          But even if he learns that, is point really where we want him? Maybe..in a structure like the Pacers where the point guard's job does seem to be to score. But I'd really like to see Lance in the context of a shooting guard, where there is a point guard and Lance is a secondary play maker. With the thought process of "make plays for myself first, make plays for others second." Because really, Lance's best quality in highschool and his one year of college was scoring. And his ability to score was why Larry liked him.
                          Aren't we in that position to test that now with GH?

                          The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

                          I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.
                          Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                            Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                            Aren't we in that position to test that now with GH?

                            The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

                            I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.
                            I would rather start Lance. Sub him out first then sub him in for Hill when DJ would normally sub in, and forget DJ is even on this team.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                              Originally posted by Tom White View Post
                              Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants
                              Have you seen some of the plays this dude draws up? Any player with any sense wouldn't run a play Vogel draws up. Hopefully West stands up at the end of this season and says " I would like to stay, but i can't play for Vogel." It's not nice, but Vogel is one of those people you can just look at and listen to talk and realize he's just a dumb person. He has no business being an NBA head coach. Maybe he's a nice guy, but he's a bad coach. Not only does he need to do a better job with Lance, he needs to do a better job with the entire team. There's no way this team, even without Granger, should be below .500 with the schedule the Pacers have had.
                              FIRE FRANK VOGEL!

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                              • #60
                                Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                                Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                                Aren't we in that position to test that now with GH?

                                The problem is that we aren't.....every game I have seen him in the Starting Lineup....or playing with the Starters....he's moving around....gets to a certain spot behind the 3pt line....waits for the ball.....and then either takes a shot or passes the ball.

                                I'd hope that we could do this with Lance in the 2nd unit just to see what would happen since there are less Players to defer to. In all honesty...I'd rather shift Young to the Starting Lineup ( since he's already closing for the team ) and then run with a DJ/Lance/Green/Hans/Mahinmi lineup just to see if the 2nd unit scoring improves.
                                Well, I meant when he resumes his role as backup SG.

                                I'd expect him to be the least involved of the starting five now. He's the fifth best player, and he's the least experienced. (He also struggles a bit in the concept of the offense. As others pointed out, he often needs to be told where to be. A pretty common young player mistake..but that mistake makes it harder for them to be involved.)

                                Like I said, it might be to the team's benefit to just give Lance the keys to the backup unit. Him and Tyler can have good offensive chemistry and miss defensive rotations together. But then the question would be if it was would be the best thing for Lance's development. (Letting him do what he'd like). He needs to learn offensive structure, and giving him the keys means that he won't.

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