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Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

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  • #61
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Originally posted by jtroub8 View Post
    I see what your saying vnzla, but i "kinda" disagree. Danny is good & would be a decent 2nd, great 3rd option on a contending team but he is VERY VALUABLE to the P's. It's very obvious right now. I'm not saying DG is on LB or KD's level or anything close to that but more of how much his value means to this "team".
    I think that if the Pacers front office if instead of signing Green and Young had signed Crawford or Mayo nobody would be missing Danny as much, the issue is not that the team misses Danny, the issue is that the Pacers have a bunch of scrubs to replace him.

    In reality Paul George is doing a pretty good job in replacing Danny's numbers plus he is playing better D and rebounding at a higher rate than Danny, people love to think about the Danny of four years ago while forgetting that his productivity has been declining every year, last year was bad other than one month were he found a way to make his numbers look decent.

    Right now the problem is not replacing Danny but replacing Paul George at small guard.

    Edit: I'm not saying that signing either player could make the Pacers contenders either, their issues are deeper than missing an scorer.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 11-15-2012, 12:38 PM.
    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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    • #62
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

      Danny did a lot more than stats to make the offense run smoother. That's pretty evident at this point. Now maybe that's a failure in offensive design and not an endorsement of Danny, but it's true either way.


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      • #63
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

        Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
        I don't disagree with anything you say Taterhead, though I do think Danny is very important to the how team is built. I absolutely agree that Hibbert, Hill, George and Stephenson are alright to stay and can work, but we need to find a good scoring guard somehow and we need a real athlete in the front court who has a mid range jumper.
        I'm not saying he's not. He's the guy that can hit shots any team will give to you, and that certainly helps when you can't get a better one. But at the end of the day he's a streaky low percentage field goal shooter and depending on him to fix it is not smart, JMO.

        I just think our approach is flawed and as long as we depend on him to do things that aren't his strengths, we'll never get where we want to be. You just can't be the San Antonio Spurs without Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker in the back court. That is what we are missing, is the guard play. Bigs rely on the guards, and the shooters do too. And we either don't have them, or Frank Vogels offense puts handcuffs on them.

        The problem with Vogel offense I see is it allows the defense to dictate what we do and I think it's a huge problem. The team approach where you don't know who's going to hurt you, works both ways. We don't know who's going to help us either. So how do you gameplan when that's the case? A great basketball team flows like water, but they can also pound you like a hammer when they need to.


        Originally posted by naptownmenace View Post
        If they continue to flounder and if Danny misses the entire season, they should just trade David West at the trade deadline and try to get a young player and/or a draft pick preferably from a team that owns a potential lottery team's pick. Maybe Oklahoma City would send up Perry Jones or Jeremy Lamb and one of Houston's draft picks for him.

        I don't think they'll continue this slide so all of that is really a moot point.
        That is the perfect trade with the perfect partner. West would fill a huge need for them with his post scoring as their 3rd big, and Lamb fits our needs and could be huge for us in a few years. If we could get a descent pick to boot, it is the kind of trade that can vault us to legit contender status
        Last edited by Taterhead; 11-15-2012, 12:57 PM.
        "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

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        • #64
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

          Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
          Danny did a lot more than stats to make the offense run smoother. That's pretty evident at this point. Now maybe that's a failure in offensive design and not an endorsement of Danny, but it's true either way.
          Explain? I remember that the offense looked the same last year with him on the team, the offense has been bad for a long long time with or without Danny.
          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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          • #65
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

            Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
            Explain? I remember that the offense looked the same last year with him on the team, the offense has been bad for a long long time with or without Danny.
            You think the offense looked the same? What how is that even possible? We averaged 10 more PPG, we had better movement. Roy and West got the ball in better spots because Danny spread the D. George was able to just be a spot up jump shooter and get easy buckets in transition. The offense this year looks like a skeletal version of the offense last year at best. It is the same system at its core, but it is not operating in any way, shape or form close to the same efficiency. Last year we also did a great job on the offensive rebounds, one of the reason this may have been the case was because Danny requires his man to stay home, it's harder to help on the defensive boards. Watch how Lance and Paul are defended. Their guys cheat off them all the damn time. Saying Paul is "replacing Danny's stats", well that may be true, but he is not replacing Danny's impact. The team is a lot easier to defend offensively without Danny. It's not an excuse, it's just true, it's an indictment of the coaching staff, the front office, and the rest of the players just as much as it is a support to Danny being a pretty dang good player.

            Danny got to the free throw line more than anyone else on the team, 5 free throw attempts a game that are basically gone. Just poof. Paul is not replacing those right now. Paul is getting to the free throw line a whopping 1.9 times a game! That is a huge, huge detriment to the offense.

            Stop looking at just the fact that Paul is averaging 14 and 8 and saying that is replacing Danny because it's not. It's not even close. Even with Danny's bad shooting last year, Paul is doing worse. Paul is turning the ball over more than Danny did.

            But the free throws are a pretty big deal. That is pretty much 4 PPG that has just gone up in smoke. That's not even accounting the differences in Paul and Danny's game. Danny could play offense without the basketball in a half court set, Paul cannot. Paul can barely play offense with the basketball in a half court set. And I'm not trying to tip on Paul I like his impact on the team, but syaing the offense looks the same as last year? No way, it's just not even close, it's not nearly as open, it's way more clogged up. It's like if you took our offense last year and stuck it in a freezer and then put it in a blender. Yeah it's the same bits and pieces in general, but they aren't nearly the same.
            Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-15-2012, 12:57 PM.


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            • #66
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

              Originally posted by Taterhead View Post
              I just think our approach is flawed and as long as we depend on him to do things that aren't his strengths
              Huh?

              The things that we rely on Danny to do, like outside shooting, are most definitely his strengths. That's why he's so important, because what he does do, he does very well.
              Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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              • #67
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                I think that if the Pacers front office if instead of signing Green and Young had signed Crawford or Mayo nobody would be missing Danny as much, the issue is not that the team misses Danny, the issue is that the Pacers have a bunch of scrubs to replace him.

                In reality Paul George is doing a pretty good job in replacing Danny's numbers plus he is playing better D and rebounding at a higher rate than Danny, people love to think about the Danny of four years ago while forgetting that his productivity has been declining every year, last year was bad other than one month were he found a way to make his numbers look decent.

                Right now the problem is not replacing Danny but replacing Paul George at small guard.

                Edit: I'm not saying that signing either player could make the Pacers contenders either, their issues are deeper than missing an scorer.
                Paul can't replace Danny's presence, shooting, confidence, nor his clutch shot ability. Teams are daring PG to shoot right now, whereas teams rarely come off Danny within a spot up situation.

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                • #68
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                  Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                  Huh?

                  The things that we rely on Danny to do, like outside shooting, are most definitely his strengths. That's why he's so important, because what he does do, he does very well.
                  Some people are expecting him to facilitate offense. He is a finisher. He won't come in and turn our offense around, JMO. He will help.

                  I think this early season struggle has shined a huge light on our flaws as a team.
                  "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                    Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
                    You think the offense looked the same? What how is that even possible? We averaged 10 more PPG, we had better movement. Roy and West got the ball in better spots because Danny spread the D. George was able to just be a spot up jump shooter and get easy buckets in transition. The offense this year looks like a skeletal version of the offense last year at best. It is the same system at its core, but it is not operating in any way, shape or form close to the same efficiency. Last year we also did a great job on the offensive rebounds, one of the reason this may have been the case was because Danny requires his man to stay home, it's harder to help on the defensive boards. Watch how Lance and Paul are defended. Their guys cheat off them all the damn time. Saying Paul is "replacing Danny's stats", well that may be true, but he is not replacing Danny's impact. The team is a lot easier to defend offensively without Danny. It's not an excuse, it's just true, it's an indictment of the coaching staff, the front office, and the rest of the players just as much as it is a support to Danny being a pretty dang good player.

                    Danny got to the free throw line more than anyone else on the team, 5 free throw attempts a game that are basically gone. Just poof. Paul is not replacing those right now. Paul is getting to the free throw line a whopping 1.9 times a game! That is a huge, huge detriment to the offense.

                    Stop looking at just the fact that Paul is averaging 14 and 8 and saying that is replacing Danny because it's not. It's not even close. Even with Danny's bad shooting last year, Paul is doing worse. Paul is turning the ball over more than Danny did.

                    But the free throws are a pretty big deal. That is pretty much 4 PPG that has just gone up in smoke. That's not even accounting the differences in Paul and Danny's game. Danny could play offense without the basketball in a half court set, Paul cannot. Paul can barely play offense with the basketball in a half court set. And I'm not trying to tip on Paul I like his impact on the team, but syaing the offense basically looks the same as last year? I mean, maybe if you're applying a pretty liberal use of the word basically.
                    If I didn't know about who you are talking about I could think that you are talking about Lebron or something, Danny is(was) good but he is not that good, him jacking up shots and shooting under .400 from the field doesn't help as much as you think, there were many games last year were he was a huge negative to the team and was still jacking up shots.

                    Regarding the offense, yes the offense is the same cluster s***, maybe they scored more points it was the same bs.

                    I guess I'm going to try to leave you guys alone into thinking that if Danny was here everything would be OK, if that make you guys feel better inside so be it.
                    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                      Originally posted by Taterhead View Post
                      Some people are expecting him to facilitate offense. He is a finisher. He won't come in and turn our offense around, JMO. He will help.

                      I think this early season struggle has shined a huge light on our flaws as a team.
                      Who? I think what people are saying, and what you're taking it as, are two seperate things.
                      Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                        Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                        If I didn't know about who you are talking about I could think that you are talking about Lebron or something, Danny is(was) good but he is not that good, him jacking up shots and shooting under .400 from the field doesn't help as much as you think, there were many games last year were he was a huge negative to the team and was still jacking up shots.

                        Regarding the offense, yes the offense is the same cluster s***, maybe they scored more points it was the same bs.

                        I guess I'm going to try to leave you guys alone into thinking that if Danny was here everything would be OK, if that make you guys feel better inside so be it.
                        Where have I ever said that everything would be OK? Where did I ever compare Danny to Lebron James? Do you ever just have a discussion without flying completely off into La La Land where you just overstate everything?

                        You made the statement that Paul is pretty much replacing Danny. I told you, that you are completely wrong. He doesn't move as well off the ball, he doesn't get to the free throw line as well, he turns the ball over, his defender does not treat him the same way Danny was treated. And you want to keep harping on Danny's percentages, Paul is shooting even worse than Danny did!

                        But all you can come back to me with is that I sound like I'm describing Lebron James, and that I'm just making myself feel good inside.

                        You always demand for everyone to back up their own position, but you never back yours. Pretty much ever. You just make outlandish comments.

                        So please tell me, how is Paul George replacing Danny Granger on offense? Not Lebron James, Danny Granger. Why are we even talking about Lebron James? Even in a world where Danny is as talented as Lebron they have completely different skill sets and styles. If anything the way we are trying to use Paul is like a way crappier version of Lebron.


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                        • #72
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                          If I didn't know about who you are talking about I could think that you are talking about Lebron or something, Danny is(was) good but he is not that good, him jacking up shots and shooting under .400 from the field doesn't help as much as you think, there were many games last year were he was a huge negative to the team and was still jacking up shots.

                          Regarding the offense, yes the offense is the same cluster s***, maybe they scored more points it was the same bs.

                          I guess I'm going to try to leave you guys alone into thinking that if Danny was here everything would be OK, if that make you guys feel better inside so be it.
                          So, seriously, if everything was the same last year and Danny wasn't that good and the bench wasn't that important, how did we finish where we did? Was it a league-wide conspiracy to get Pacer fans' hopes up so they could be cruelly crushed?

                          I'll agree our offense was the same, but it was more effective for a reason - that reason was because we actually had some scoring from the outside from time to time. The fact that we struggled when we had no outside scoring (during Danny's slump at the beginning of the season) was why we went after Barbosa (who was reviled after the playoffs as being someone we shouldn't bring back and yet suddenly is one of the main guys we should have kept).

                          People who say we're essentially the same team as last year need to be able to explain exactly what it was that let us finish where we did, because "luck" doesn't cut it.
                          BillS

                          A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                          Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                          • #73
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                            Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                            I guess I'm going to try to leave you guys alone into thinking that if Danny was here everything would be OK, if that make you guys feel better inside so be it.
                            No one has argued that Danny will fix everything. Instead of purposfully distorting what people say, you should stick to what is actually said. You have a very bad habit of taking pretty much everything to the extreme.
                            Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                              Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                              No one has argued that Danny will fix everything. Instead of purposfully distorting what people say, you should stick to what is actually said. You have a very bad habit of taking pretty much everything to the extreme.
                              Yes and it's maddeningly frustrating after I put time into a post to explain my position, at his request, to get back crap that basically amounts to "Sounds like you're describing Lebron James, whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy"


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                              • #75
                                Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

                                NOBODY thinks Danny will fix everything. They just appreciate what he brings to the team, and do not feel that PG is doing that good of a job in replacing him.

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