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Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

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  • Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

    I am at a complete and total loss.

    I have no idea how to fix this and I don’t know if we even have the people in place to fix this.

    I just know that this is an absolute disaster and any hopes of real post season success are going further and further away from us as we continue to lose to cupcake teams that the league so graciously gave us to start our season.

    I mean in all honesty we have an ideal beginning season schedule, sure there are a lot of road games but a lot of them are against teams who either did not make the playoffs last year or were very low seeds with a few contenders sprinkled in. Giving us another massive home stand to end the season and maybe secure home court advantage, right now that is the absolute farthest thing from my mind. I think I’ll just be happy to make the playoffs at this point in time and really can no longer concern myself with playoff positioning.

    I think that is my biggest problem this year, it’s not that we are playing any worse than in years past I mean for the love of God I had to sit through the O’Brien years. But in all honesty I came into the season actually thinking this year was going to be something different. Not the normal different that I hope for every year but the real honest difference that comes with actually being one of the best teams in the league.

    I mean if I’m honest I will admit that once Danny went down with injury I figured that everybody else would step up, that our depth would show brighter than it ever had and frankly I thought that Paul George would develop into option A as a scorer leaving me with the very unenviable task of having to defend Danny against all of Paul’s fans who would want him moved because Paul was doing so well.

    That has all collapsed.

    In fact as I type this I am listening to NBAtv in the background & tonight Ernie Johnson is in studio as host and he just called Danny Granger a superstar. Yes you read that right he called him a SUPERSTAR. I didn’t even believe it myself so I just went back & rewound it to make sure I heard him right.

    I find this so frustrating because in the pre-season preview NBAtv had nothing good to say about Danny.

    I digress.

    I’ll quote General Beringer from War Games: I’d **** on a spark plug if I thought it would do any good.

    That’s where I am right now, I have no idea.

    Is it Frank? He needs to accept a lot of the blame & maybe he needs the vast majority of the blame, I don’t know.

    His sets are predictable and frankly every team in the league knows them. Tonight Calderon was turning around on defense showing the Raptors what play the Pacers were running by hand signal. In other words whatever Frank held up Jose made sure that his team mates saw it.

    But as much as I think Frank deserves blame here, and believe me I’m not giving him a break, I just don’t know how much of this is all on him.

    I mean honest to God Roy Hibbert is now missing 3-5’ bunny hook shots that are just rolling out of the rim. These were plays called specifically to get Roy an open look, which he got, but then just missed the shot. Frank also has the disability of not having anyone on the roster who can just flat out square up and shoot the ball.

    Think about this Calderon changed the game in the first quarter and how did he do it? It wasn’t wizardry or deadeye long distance shooting. Simply put he just squared up and started hitting 13-15’ jump shots. Now the argument can be made that Frank doesn’t design plays to get those types of looks but then the counter argument to that would be even if he did who is going to hit that shot? I have no idea, sometimes David West can but the past couple of games he has not been a real threat from the field.

    I mean collectively the team shot 32% from the field. Some of that was on the coach for the type of shots but some of that is on the team for missing wide open shots and taking poor off balance shots as well (some of that is the fault of Frank I’ll grant you).

    I wanted the win at the end of the day, because like I said for whatever reason I haven’t been able to give up the ghost on playoff positioning, but frankly we didn’t deserve to win.

    I can’t tell you how disgusting it is to feel that the team was out hustled by a team that played a triple overtime the night before half the country away. By the end of the 4th quarter the Raptors were beyond running on vapors. It was a sad pathetic way to spend the night to be honest with you.

    Also does anyone have any idea why Kevin Pritchard is out watching College Basketball instead of watching the Pacers and trying to figure out what is wrong with our team? Don't we have college scouts anymore or did we let them go and Pritchard has to do that as well?

    I’m just doing grades tonight & as you can imagine they won’t be pretty. Also as a reminder to people game grades are based on the game played that does not mean the player can not get a lower or higher grade in another game.

    David West: D

    Just didn’t produce. Played nearly 40 min and came away with 11 points & 6 rebounds. No Bargnani didn’t light him up either but unlike the first game where he saved us tonight he just could not hit shots. Also side note, on that last possession where he was taken out he was limping and wincing coming to the bench.

    Paul George: D+

    Again I’m just going on tonight’s game if I went on expectations I’m sorry it would be an F but I’ll hold that go with the D+. The guy just has no idea how to drive to the basket and has almost no ability to dribble in traffic. His defense is outstanding and his rebounding is solid but right now we need a true elite level scorer from the wing position.

    Roy Hibbert: F

    I tweeted at half time that when Roy walked on the floor from the locker room he looked totally out of it and disengaged. In other words I wonder if Frank didn’t call up Jim on the phone to give Roy a half time talk. I told Diamond Dave that there was just no way that he was going to be of any functional use. Sorry guys this is a real problem because we are in a full fledged mental melt down by the big man. I’m not sure how to snap him out of it but sadly our fortunes are tied to him.

    Lance Stephenson: C+

    Dude plays with fire and purpose. He may play out of control a lot but even that is much less than it used to be. However give me some of that edge and fire over cool nonchalant demeanor any day of the week. No he didn’t give us enough but for what is expected of him this was a decent game.

    George Hill: C+

    Shot putrid from the field but at the end of the day this guy does not shy away from big moments and really is about the only player on our team (other than maybe Lance) who can get his own shot. Now understand he had some poor passing early in the game but if it wasn’t for him we would have probably not outscored the Raptors in the final quarter (not that it really mattered).

    Tyler Hansbrough: B

    You wouldn’t think it by looking at his stats but I’m telling you he was a difference maker on the floor. He tapped a lot of balls and he drew a couple of charges & poked balls loose. Not all of that shows up as a favorable stat for him but he really upped the energy level out there as well. So far this season he has been a pleasant surprise.

    Gerald Green: D



    Ian Mahinmi: C-

    Just as a reminder we are paying him 2 million more a year than what Greg Stiemsma is making with the Wolves. I bring that up because I wanted Greg and they are both producing the same results. Its obvious Frank doesn’t trust him very much either with is really bad considering Roy is having a nervous breakdown.

    D.J. Augustin: C-

    He hit a shot, he hit a free throw, and these are massive up grades over what he has done in the past. Other than that though once again Frank shows almost zero faith in him letting him play a whopping 11 min on the floor.


    You guys tell me what's wrong.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

    Well it speaks volumes about this season that I just got done visiting nbadraft.net. If you'd ask me in September who was coming out in this upcoming draft class I'd have said, "Who cares? Pacers are gonna be drafting 24-30 so you just take best available."

    Well that is no longer the case. Barring a medical miracle that Danny wakes up tomorrow and has young Theo Ratliff legs, this season is down the drain. I have zero point zero faith in Paul George. Roy will struggle all year due to our lack of perimeter threats and his mental ineptitude. Oh and DJ Augustine, to quote another brilliant poster, "sucks more *** than a Tijuana hooker."

    It is the O'brien era all over again where all we do all season is wait until some massive upheavel of the team and staff happens to hopefully usher in a new era.
    House Name: Pacers

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    House Words: "We Kneel To No King"

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    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

      Is it possible that there is some loss in Team Chemistry with the significant change in lineups that we are seeing here?

      There are 2 changes that we are talking about here.

      1 ) We have at most...a 9-10 man rotation where 4 to 5 of them are new to the roster. How much chemistry and familiarity does DJ, Green and Mahinmi have with each other? If anything, it's been said that Lance and Hansbrough have the most familiarity with each other which has resulted in some trust and good plays.
      2 ) The Starting lineup's chemistry is slightly altered with Granger out and adding into the mix some combination of Green, Lance and Young.

      I'm not saying that there isn't anything wrong.....clearly something is affecting Hibbert's game and PG is now being forced to be "The Man" ( which is something that I do not think he will ever be suited to be ) with Granger out....but I'm suggesting that what we are seeing may simply be a by-product of the changes to our lineup ( due to Granger being out ) and the lack of familiarity between the Players and rotations that we are being forced to use.

      This doesn't mean that I think that adding Granger back into the mix will fix EVERYTHING.....it will fix some of the issues...but I'm saying that I think that the 2nd unit and lack of production is one of the reasons why we aren't doing too well ( the main reason is because Hibbert is doing his best impression of Andres Biedrins instead of the Hibbert that showed us what he was made of in the Playoffs ).
      Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

        If you're thinking about leadership and rallying points, how many players do we have left that rallied around the idea that JOB is gone and Vogel isn't JOB?

        Hibbert, Paul George, Hans.... Obviously Granger is out so he can't count for much.
        Do we count Lance?

        I don't know how much difference it makes but obviously it was a rallying point for the team as a whole to want to play better and do better once JOB was gone. With all the turnover maybe that collective rallying point is gone?

        DC would've had a chip on his shoulder for sure.

        And remember the rumors/leaks that the Pacers weren't going to match Portland and re-sign Roy? Ever wonder if maybe that was the fracture in the FO and Bird wasn't going to pay Roy that kind of money? Meanwhile, Loyal Simon and "Tell me the max so I can write the check" Donnie Walsh might've had other plans?

        I dunno... I'm probably reaching...
        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

        ------

        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

        -John Wooden

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        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

          I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the Raptors could hit only one shot in the forth quarter, and we still couldn't come away with the W.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

            Originally posted by Bball View Post

            And remember the rumors/leaks that the Pacers weren't going to match Portland and re-sign Roy? Ever wonder if maybe that was the fracture in the FO and Bird wasn't going to pay Roy that kind of money? Meanwhile, Loyal Simon and "Tell me the max so I can write the check" Donnie Walsh might've had other plans?

            I dunno... I'm probably reaching...
            I wondered that when Bird stepped down.
            "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

              Free Lance.
              "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                Originally posted by Peck View Post
                Paul George: ................. His defense is outstanding.
                I'm going to disagree with this and then pile on.

                More than once last nite, he would be completely lost on D, looking around for whomever he was supposed to be guarding and when that guy scored on an easy hoop, he slumped his shoulders and mentally took himself out of the next minute or 2 of the game. Again, not an isolated incident.

                And the guy simply has to have the lowest basketball IQ / instincts / whatever you want to call it. On defense, it's 4 guys and George. On offense, it's 4 guys and George. Maybe he should pursue a career in video game playing or go on a playground dunking tour. All the talk of the work he did in the off-season is apparently just that - talk. He looks more lost on the court than he did his rookie year.

                Roy ?? It's the Croshere syndrome. He's got the big contract now and it's gone to his head. He's either relaxed now that he's cashed in or is trying to live up to the $$.

                What a waste of an evening going to watch that disaster.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                  I really miss Danny Granger--yes, we all do. But I don't miss Danny Granger based on the faulty premise that he is top level talent. I miss Danny Granger because his very presence would mean less playing time for the subpar players like Green and Young who should not be seeing more than 5 to 10 minutes of playing time a night on any respectable playoff team. That's a big part of our problem right there. Getting Granger back in time for the postseason push will by default solve a lot of our problems, even if he won't be back at peak performance.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                    Originally posted by PacerDude View Post
                    More than once last nite, he would be completely lost on D, looking around for whomever he was supposed to be guarding and when that guy scored on an easy hoop, he slumped his shoulders and mentally took himself out of the next minute or 2 of the game. Again, not an isolated incident.
                    I noticed that a couple of times as well.

                    He can be a good on the ball defender, by I wouldn't call him McKeyesque with his savvy and awareness.
                    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                      Great point about no legit, consistent jump shooting threats. I complained about this last year. You have to have a couple guys who are dead eye shooters wherever on the floor. And, no, I don't even consider Granger that. Yes, he can shoot the three, but it's more a volume, streak shooting. George, thus far, is in the same category, IMO.

                      I suspect they thought Green & DJ would add a little here, but again, I don't see true shooting specialists. I see streak shooters. Red hot if they get it going, but equally possible they're ice cold. And West, I must admit, has underwhelmed me even going back some to last season given his rep as automatic from mid-range.

                      You've got to have guys that can put it in the hoop. In the absence of shooters to help keep the interior more open for post ups and drives, this is what we get. Well, that and an offensive scheme that doesn't seem to help the issue either.
                      I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                      -Emiliano Zapata

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                        Originally posted by D-BONE View Post
                        Great point about no legit, consistent jump shooting threats. I complained about this last year. You have to have a couple guys who are dead eye shooters wherever on the floor. And, no, I don't even consider Granger that. Yes, he can shoot the three, but it's more a volume, streak shooting. George, thus far, is in the same category, IMO.

                        I suspect they thought Green & DJ would add a little here, but again, I don't see true shooting specialists. I see streak shooters. Red hot if they get it going, but equally possible they're ice cold. And West, I must admit, has underwhelmed me even going back some to last season given his rep as automatic from mid-range.

                        You've got to have guys that can put it in the hoop. In the absence of shooters to help keep the interior more open for post ups and drives, this is what we get. Well, that and an offensive scheme that doesn't seem to help the issue either.
                        There are a few shooters that are free agents in the offseason Kyle Korver, Anthony Morrow etc it would be wise to go after one
                        Counting down the days untill DJ Augustin's contract expires.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                          Well, first, management are looking like idiots for their signings this offseason.

                          However, I put this 95% on the coach. He simply does not have these guys prepared. The offense is a pitiful thing. If it wasn't for the Raptors legs going out in the second half, it would have been a blow out. This game made our defense look better than it really is, and yes, I think the defense is an absolute mirage. It simply isn't nearly as good as stats would suggest. I was at the Atlanta game. Guys were constantly open cause guys are constantly watching the ball and not their man. Atlanta, much like the Pacers, just couldn't hit those wide open looks. That 3OT game caught up with the Raptors and they had one of the worst quarters in the history of the game. That was not due to our amazing defense, I can tell you that. Raptors were just worn out. And the Pacers still lost!

                          How did Lance disappear after the 1st quarter. He scored 5 quick points. He's been shooting a high %. How does Vogel not try to get Lance more involved? I thought you were supposed to go with the hot hand. Instead, the guys taking the most shots more often than not lately are shooting horrible %s.

                          Free Lance. Free Plumlee!

                          I really do like Vogel and I truly believe everyone on this board does too. He's a very likeable guy & he's a player's coach. But he simply doesn't know how to coach yet. He doesn't know the Xs & Os that is needed to win. He doesn't know how to get these guys prepared. He can't figure out how to defend screens/picks. He can't get our own players to set good screens/picks.

                          Something has to give. For me, it is crystal clear that Vogel simply isn't ready as a head coach yet.

                          And I don't even think Shaw is the guy. What's his story? What is he contributing in all this? Is he just watching Frank sink the ship? At this point, I can only think he's contributing to this mess, so I'd have to say he isn't ideal to take over. I'd love Sloan or SVG. I love a defensive minded team, but I simply cannot continue to watch that train wreck of an offense.
                          First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                            I could see Walsh looking to make some changes. Even if Granger comes back, there is still a high chance of his knee acting up again.
                            "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.


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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                              This team has very low basketball IQ which is why they consistently make bad passes and miss assignments on D. There isn't much that can be done at this point - Vogel needs to figure out a rotation and stick to it. Roy needs to start making appts with his shrink again - he looks like the fragile Roy that played for JOB - not the confident Roy of last year.

                              I think Granger brought more swagger and attitude than I thought and this team is lacking that right now.
                              "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
                              - Benjamin Franklin

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