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Free Agency Awaits David West

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  • #46
    Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
    If they have no intent on signing him, they simply renounce their Bird Rights and poof the cap hold is gone.
    Yes...but I assume that they will kick the tires to see what they can get for him on teh Open market.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    • #47
      Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

      Originally posted by CableKC View Post
      Keep in mind that even if he is not re-signed...his contract will have a Caphold that would affect the Pacers 2013-2014 Salary Cap. Especially if the Pacers have little intention to re-sign the him....it would be in their best interest to move his Salary before the 2012-2013 Trading Deadline so that his Caphold cannot impact the Pacers ability to sign Free Agents. My thought is that the Pacers are going to kick the tires to see if they can get a future 2nd round pick and an Expiring Contract for him while clearing his 2013-2014 Salary Caphold from the books.
      Since Tyler is an expiring contract, the value of trading him for one seems negligible. as does the value of a 2nd round pick. Now I agree that a 2nd round pick is better than no 2nd round pick, but only some of the time. Sometimes the cap space and roster space is more valuable than the pick. The cap hold is unimportant. It can be renounced whenever it needs to be. Worrying about it is pointless.


      Given that Danny will be a UFA in the 2014-2015 season and will likely ask for a very big contract when he becomes a Free Agent...I don't see the Pacers giving him as much as he think he's worth....that's why I can see them moving him anytime between now and the summer of 2013 for an Expiring Contract and a prospect. Add in that PG will likely get a $11-13 mil contract offer as a RFA in 2014-2015 and the Pacers will either re-sign West or find a Starting Quality PF to replace him ( Milsap? )....unless Granger can be had for a reasonable price...I don't see Granger and PG on the same Team beyond the summer of 2013.

      Originally posted by CableKC View Post
      The reality is that the Pacers simply can't afford to have a Starting lineup that eats up the the vast majority of the SalaryCap space by the start of the 2014-2015 Season ( when PG becomes a RFA ). We are stuck with Hibbert and Hill eating up $24 mil in Salary by the 2014-2015 season.....add in that PG will likely get a $10 to 12 mil contract offer.....re-signing Granger AND West to $9 to 12+ mil contract each....would get us over that.
      That is true. Again, it maybe better to let a guy sign elsewhere and use the cap space for something else. I think you are overlooking the value of cap space in your analysis of trading possibilities. Just an example, trading Danny or David for multiple guys that are just guys is not a good trade in spite of getting something for your guy you don't want to resign. Like you said, there are only so many salary slots that can be used. Letting David go to keep Paul is a valid reason. Trading David for a couple of guys and a second doesn't make any more room to resign Paul. For today's NBA GM, sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.

      Edit: IMO, trading a healthy Danny borders on insane. Unless you get a guy like Gasol or Josh Smith or Rondo or some other top guy. In other words, the only trade to make is one in which Danny is not the best player being traded. Danny is a really good player and a player that evidently is very important to this team success.
      Last edited by xIndyFan; 11-12-2012, 04:07 PM.

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      • #48
        Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

        Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
        Even as I rental I wouldn't be surprised that a team gives the Pacers some assets, OKC makes sense because they need somebody that can score inside and they also need to move Perkins, Perkins+asset for West could be done I think, now I don't know how that affects the Pacers cap though.

        Edit: Oh and they need to make sure to ad Ian or Green on the trade too.
        Is there any chance we could do a Granger and Hans/IM or a West and Hans/Green to Atl for Josh Smith? Salaries would be pretty close and might even be able to get 1 year extensions for each team. Smith may or may not stay in Atl., but his ability to play both forward positions and clear space for Roy would make him a very good fit for the Pacers, IMO. I don't think we can keep both DW and DG after this year without spending a lot more money than Simon will be interested in spending when the PG contract comes due. Hans/Granger with a sign and trade for about the same money would fit for Smith if he would agree to sign and trade.

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        • #49
          Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

          Originally posted by MnvrChvy View Post
          If PG wants $12M a year, you let him walk and laugh at the taker. Love the kid, but he hasn't proven anything yet, and $12M is 'proven' money.
          yep, i like what he brings with the D and he is a terrific rebounder at his position but i have not seen 12 million a year out of him yet.

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          • #50
            Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

            Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
            The Pacers look like an out of the playoffs or 7th 8th seat right now with West as their best player, I guess if you want to be the JOB mediocre Pacers for years to come you keep the same people, keeping West is not going to make the Pacers contenders and upgrading the wings without giving up a key player is a dream.
            No, the difference between this team and the O'Brien era team, including the team Vogel got to the playoffs and then fell apart in the fourth quarter of every game against the Bulls is West. Maybe he doesn't make us a top-four contender (hard to blame him, this team was supposed to have Granger). But I think you're undervaluing what David actually does for this team and will continue to do for a couple more seasons. He's not going to play forever, obviously, but he should play here for longer than just the rest of this contract.

            Yes, we won't really be a title contender until David is our second option, and Danny (or Roy) is our third option. That's certainly true. But if you give up David, you've really got to get both a first and second option in return. That's a tall order for a team that will be near/ over the cap.

            I guess the difference is, right now I see them trying to maximize the team based on what they have or can reasonably get. You'd like to set fire to them so see if something else might be better in a few years. Given this franchise's financial struggles, its hard to blame them for having some patience with the roster they've been investing in. It isn't the fault of any of our active players that Danny is out.
            Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
            Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
            Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
            Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
            And life itself, rushing over me
            Life itself, the wind in black elms,
            Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

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            • #51
              Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

              Originally posted by ChicagoJ View Post
              No, the difference between this team and the O'Brien era team, including the team Vogel got to the playoffs and then fell apart in the fourth quarter of every game against the Bulls is West
              .

              The difference is West and Hill, either way I don't think the Pacers beat that team.

              Maybe he doesn't make us a top-four contender (hard to blame him, this team was supposed to have Granger). But I think you're undervaluing what David actually does for this team and will continue to do for a couple more seasons
              .

              I'm actually valuing him pretty high by suggesting that we can get the packages that I'm suggesting and I'm sorry I don't believe he can play at a high level for couple of more seasons.


              Yes, we won't really be a title contender until David is our second option, and Danny (or Roy) is our third option. That's certainly true. But if you give up David, you've really got to get both a first and second option in return. That's a tall order for a team that will be near/ over the cap
              .

              Well that's the point get a player with potential and probably a draft pick instead of nothing, who's to say that West is not going to pull a Peja?

              I guess the difference is, right now I see them trying to maximize the team based on what they have or can reasonably get. You'd like to set fire to them so see if something else might be better in a few years. Given this franchise's financial struggles, its hard to blame them for having some patience with the roster they've been investing in. It isn't the fault of any of our active players that Danny is out.
              Because of this team financial struggles is what I think that is better to move West, I'll be really stupid to let him go for nothing or worse give him a long term contract so he can become another one of the bad contracts the Pacers signed recently.
              @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

                Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him. Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).

                It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?

                This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.
                BillS

                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                • #53
                  Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                  Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
                  I agree with you on this sort of thing for once. Pacers can't stand pat on this front court. I would move one of Hibbert or West this season. Depending on who can bring higher return. Sucks to say that because I like both of them, but the fact is we're sort of between a rock and a hard place at the moment when it comes to how to move forward. We still need to make moves, and while PG will never be a superstar he is too damn versatile IMO to just toss away unless someone offers you a huge package for him, but I just don't see that happening. So West or Hibbert seems to be the best place to bring in some assets. I know that opinion is not going to be incredibly popular, but I think it's pretty true about the team right now unless Roy starts scoring 15 a night at a 50% shooting clip all of a sudden.
                  Roy is in a slump. I'm not that worried about it. He will come out of it.

                  I would find it hard to believe that the P's would trade Roy after signing him to a big contract. But stranger things have happened.

                  I agree about West. He is going to want big bucks if he keeps up this production. And the Pacers are going to be hard pressed to shell out that kind of money and still keep PG. On the other hand, if the team trades him this offseason, then it severely inhibits their ability to compete in the East. If they let the season ride, then they lose West most likely.

                  It's a tough situation.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                    Originally posted by BillS View Post
                    OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

                    Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him.
                    Well he is expiring so the Pacers can probably loss him for nothing why no try to get something in return?

                    Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).
                    Some contenders have good assets seating on the bench(OKC) and some teams are loaded with young players(Houston) and nobody is asking to trade him for a better asset that's not reasonable.

                    It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?
                    Nobody is saying that West's 10mil is holding the Pacers back and yes there are combinations of trades that can happen for about 13mil.

                    This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.
                    Or you stay with that known quantity for the next 3 years and start the rebuilding process all over again in 3 years when he expires? or that known quantity doesn't live up to his new contract and you are stuck with a long term contract ala JO,Ford,Foster,Dunleavy,etc?

                    By the way I know the Pacers are going to do the same they did with the guys I mentioned, they either let him walk for nothing or they re-sign him for the next 3 years with the hopes that Danny comes back healthy and everything works the right way.
                    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                      Originally posted by BillS View Post
                      OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

                      Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him. Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).

                      It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?

                      This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.
                      Agree 100%. A lot of itchy triggers on this board. Why would we trade a player in West who is playing above his pay and is likely willing to resign here? I don't understand why people are so certain we are "going to lose him for nothing." He has given no indication he wants to leave and I find it very likely he resigns for 2-3 years at a decent price. Indy affords him a competitive team, a good organization, and most importantly, we can pay him. West is only 32 years old and has minimal reliance on athletiscm. While not as talented, his game is in the mold of Karl Malone, who played elite ball until he was 40. I guarantee West has 3-4 good years left, which is exactly the timing for which PG, Hill, and Hibbert will be in there prime. If we trade West now for a young asset, it will take 4-5 years for that player to reach their ceiling, at which point Hibbert and Hill are now in their 30's and we go through the entire process again. All championship teams that I can remember have had at least 1 starter in their 30's. West just turned 32, took a year off, and as I said, doesn't rely on athletiscm. I hope we resign him for 2-3 years at 8-10M and call it a day - our frontcourt is set for the next 3 years. Comparing him to JO is ridiculous as JO was injured the years prior to trading him. And we didn't receive "nothing" for JO, we landed cap space and our starting C.

                      Also, love the calling for Green and Mahinmi to be traded and labeling them "bad contracts". We aren't even two weeks into the season and some of those wanting them gone were those impressed with their preseason. Green has had a few defensive lapses (expected in a new system), but statistically he is exactly where he should be for a bench wing at 20-25mpg (10pts and 5 boards). Guys like Nick Young, Courtney Lee, and Kyle Korver are making more and performing less. I'm fine with Green's performance for 3.5M per year. In fact, he is likely underpaid right now.

                      Mahinmi has struggled at times, but he hasn't been terrible - 5 pts, 4 boards, 1 block with 47FG% and 81FT%. Those are decent numbers for a defensive big off the bench. Per 48mins he is exactly where Speights was last year and he got paid 4.2M this year, more than Mahinmi. That's just the going rate for defensive bigs, always has been - Kwame Brown was making 7M per year not too long ago. Joel Anthony was paid just under 4.0M per year after averaging 3 pts and 3 boards the year prior. Mahinmi will be fine and serve well as our backup C.

                      Yes we are losing and in a funk, but people are drastically overreacting here and pointing fingers the wrong direction.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                        Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                        Well he is expiring so the Pacers can probably loss him for nothing why no try to get something in return?
                        Cuz we have no idea if they'll simply let him go or that they actually value him like they valued Foster. If the FO doesn't think that he's part of our future....then I agree with you that we should something for nothing....the problem is that we have no idea what the FO thinks of him.

                        Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                        Some contenders have good assets seating on the bench(OKC) and some teams are loaded with young players(Houston) and nobody is asking to trade him for a better asset that's not reasonable.
                        Given that the Pacers are still looking to return to the 2nd round of the Playoffs.....if a Starter like West is traded...the FO is going to want someone that can contribute as a Starter. I would be hard pressed to find a trade that netted the Pacers an acceptable Starting quality PF that could contribute JUST as a Starter ( I'm not even talking at the same level as David West but an acceptable Starting PF ) while finding assets to match salaries. Saying that West can be traded to any of the mentioned Teams and then finding a trade that makes sense for both Teams while finding one that makes Salaries match is a lot easier said than done.

                        I fully expect that there will be some changes to the roster by the 2013-2014 offseason....I just don't see West as being one of the Players traded between now and February 2013 ( this year's trade deadline ). IMHO...West will either be re-signed/extended/whatever just like Foster was ( which means that the Pacers will be overpaying for a Player that is towards the end of his career ) or that he'll simply be let go for nothing.

                        The same can be said for Granger.
                        Last edited by CableKC; 11-12-2012, 06:29 PM.
                        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                          With the way some people on this board would run a team no one would ever be on this team for more than 3 seasons. As soon as a young player started to reach their potential they would be traded for the next guy with potential because the first guy couldn't possible net you more talent in the future, if they were a vet as soon as they were down to the last year of their contract they would be traded because you couldn't possibly re-sign them to a contract they could like up to. I am so glad we have had GMs like Walsh and Bird running the show. They realize winning a championship is about more than just putting the 5 guys with the most talent possible together, and that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                            West's recent on-court attitude is showing me that he's not happy with the team he's currently playing for, and won't think twice to leave for a stacked team for a smaller dollar.
                            witters: @imbtyler, @postgameonline

                            Originally posted by Day-V
                            In conclusion, Paul George is awesome.
                            Originally posted by Slick Pinkham
                            Our arena, their arena, Rucker park, it just doesn't matter. We're bigger, longer, younger, faster, and hungrier.


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                            • #59
                              Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                              Originally posted by imbtyler View Post
                              West's recent on-court attitude is showing me that he's not happy with the team he's currently playing for, and won't think twice to leave for a stacked team for a smaller dollar.
                              What attitude are you talking about? The one where he wants to win, or the one where he doesn't give a ****. So far I have only seen one attitude, and it says nothing about him wanting to leave.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

                                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                                Roy is not going anywhere, Danny doesn't have any value, Hill is not going anywhere, Paul George is not going anywhere, at this point the Pacers need to realize that without Danny they are not going anywhere, not only that but I don't think we can expect Danny to be 100% healthy ever again(like Dunleavy).

                                The Pacers only asset is West, he is not part of the future and the Pacers are probably going lose him for nothing, trade him to a team that feels like they need one more piece to compete and try to get one or two young pieces plus picks for the future, at some point the Pacers front office has to do what is best for the franchise.

                                Here are some teams that could probably trade for West: Houston, Atlanta, SA, OKC, Boston, Denver, GS, maybe more teams.
                                I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value
                                Sittin on top of the world!

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