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Keeping David West

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  • Re: Keeping David West

    Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
    Everytime I try to have a good conversation somebody craps all over the argument that I'm having

    Good try though next time show me how he averaged 30ppg in 10 games last year and that his numbers are as good as Love...... you like it or not he averaged 12ppg last year so nope he is not the guy you think he is.
    But this is where you have to look at more than just raw numbers to understand WHY.

    We have a guy with a good per-36 number. OK, that isn't unusual, a scrub playing 5 minutes of garbage time can have a great per-36.

    In this case, though, you have two things that make West's per-36 worth considering. First is that he's a starter. He's not playing garbage time nor is he matched up against scrubs. Second is that when he has games where he place close to 36 minutes his scoring actually approaches the per-36 number. That is pretty important because it means the per-36 isn't somehow due to a burst of production in short minutes.

    So, you point out, his OVERALL average was MUCH lower than his per-36, and a guy with similar numbers is considered to be a much better player.

    This is where you have to start looking around to explain WHY that is instead of just saying that somehow the statistics are wrong. Is it that West commonly played far fewer minutes and therefore didn't have the opportunity to hit the scoring he could hit when playing over 30 minutes? If so, WHY was he playing fewer minutes? Were his shooting percentages bad in the games he played fewer minutes (in other words, he is inconsistent offensively)? Is it that he was pulled for defensive reasons (which I know you would focus on)?

    Fitting a team together isn't about picking a statistic and finding everyone who is best at that statistic - all single statistics are flawed because they only show part of the picture. It is about figuring out WHY guys have certain statistics and whether another player can help overcome the weaknesses that are shown in this player's statistics while allowing him to use his strengths.
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

    Comment


    • Re: Keeping David West

      Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
      Lebron, Durant, Anthony, Pierce, Iguodala, Gay, Danny, Deng, Marion, Walllace...

      SF is one of the deepest positions in the league. Least IMO
      If were talking all around game I agree, but despite the lack of superstar talent SG is still the tougher position to defend IMO. PPG, usage rates, etc, all favor SGs.

      Comment


      • Re: Keeping David West

        Originally posted by CJ Jones View Post
        If were talking all around game I agree, but despite the lack of superstar talent SG is still the tougher position to defend IMO. PPG, usage rates, etc, all favor SGs.
        Tougher than PG? 2 guard is hard to guard, but only if one is a dynamic ball handler.

        Comment


        • Re: Keeping David West

          Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
          Tougher than PG? 2 guard is hard to guard, but only if one is a dynamic ball handler.
          my bad... i meant between wings. PG is probably the toughest position in the league defend.

          Comment


          • Re: Keeping David West

            Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
            Everytime I try to have a good conversation somebody craps all over the argument that I'm having

            Good try though next time show me how he averaged 30ppg in 10 games last year and that his numbers are as good as Love...... you like it or not he averaged 12ppg last year so nope he is not the guy you think he is.
            Whats your argument? THat David West can't play close to 36 minutes per game now and he use too? That his production dropped due to being older or injuried?

            LIke I said before David West played half the season 33 games total averaging 34 minutes per game. Thats with coming back from an injury and playing a condensed schedule which could explain the drop of production alone.

            Even out side of that you could explain the lack of production with his role on the team which isn't to be the primary option or even the primary option in the low post. Why is that not a logical answer to you I have no idea.

            Comment


            • Re: Keeping David West

              Originally posted by BillS View Post
              But this is where you have to look at more than just raw numbers to understand WHY.

              We have a guy with a good per-36 number. OK, that isn't unusual, a scrub playing 5 minutes of garbage time can have a great per-36.

              In this case, though, you have two things that make West's per-36 worth considering. First is that he's a starter. He's not playing garbage time nor is he matched up against scrubs. Second is that when he has games where he place close to 36 minutes his scoring actually approaches the per-36 number. That is pretty important because it means the per-36 isn't somehow due to a burst of production in short minutes.

              So, you point out, his OVERALL average was MUCH lower than his per-36, and a guy with similar numbers is considered to be a much better player.

              This is where you have to start looking around to explain WHY that is instead of just saying that somehow the statistics are wrong. Is it that West commonly played far fewer minutes and therefore didn't have the opportunity to hit the scoring he could hit when playing over 30 minutes? If so, WHY was he playing fewer minutes? Were his shooting percentages bad in the games he played fewer minutes (in other words, he is inconsistent offensively)? Is it that he was pulled for defensive reasons (which I know you would focus on)?

              Fitting a team together isn't about picking a statistic and finding everyone who is best at that statistic - all single statistics are flawed because they only show part of the picture. It is about figuring out WHY guys have certain statistics and whether another player can help overcome the weaknesses that are shown in this player's statistics while allowing him to use his strengths.
              You are making some good points but there is a reason why I go with the raw numbers of 12.8ppg and 6.6rpg, there are too many variables, by looking at West's games last year he played more than 36 minutes only 5 times, are people really expecting him to play 36+ minutes a game this year when he was only able to play 36+ minutes 5 times? the odds are against it.

              There is also the age issue, I don't think he is going to be able to play that many minutes anymore, his defense is also going to affect his ability to stay on the floor, I expect West to put good numbers in the beginning of the year by the way and I know I'm going to get crap for it but at the end of the year I expect him to stay right were he was last year, not bad but not top 10 or top 15 as many think here.
              @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

              Comment


              • Re: Keeping David West

                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                You are making some good points but there is a reason why I go with the raw numbers of 12.8ppg and 6.6rpg, there are too many variables, by looking at West's games last year he played more than 36 minutes only 5 times, are people really expecting him to play 36+ minutes a game this year when he was only able to play 36+ minutes 5 times? the odds are against it.
                That is not the argument and you know it. It is clear that you think he is a below average scorer. They used 36per stats to show that is not the case. You rightfully said that 36per can be skewed. And BillS pointed out that sometimes it is. But in West's situation it isn't. You said he makes good points.

                And then you said that we can't expect him to play 36 mpg. Come on dude. The point was that West is a good enough scorer, a below average overall defender, and average rebounder who plays 30 to 33 mpg and can healthily put up 14 to 16 ppg with 46 to 52 % from the field.

                You aren't getting crap from me and others. There may be a few out there but don't lump all of us with them. You clearly don't like West, we understand. You have every right to not like him. But to say that he is below average as a scorer is flat wrong.

                Comment


                • Re: Keeping David West

                  FWIW, I say after the season we look for a PF that has the tools and personality to get us over the hump. And he is not available, or that man is West so be it. I do not want to sign anyone, any more because he is "our" guy. It is blind loyalty in a business that burns you for it. The goal is to win, not to be loyal to everyone who has benefited us.......*cough Artest *cough Croshere

                  Comment


                  • Re: Keeping David West

                    Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                    You are making some good points but there is a reason why I go with the raw numbers of 12.8ppg and 6.6rpg, there are too many variables, by looking at West's games last year he played more than 36 minutes only 5 times, are people really expecting him to play 36+ minutes a game this year when he was only able to play 36+ minutes 5 times? the odds are against it.

                    There is also the age issue, I don't think he is going to be able to play that many minutes anymore, his defense is also going to affect his ability to stay on the floor, I expect West to put good numbers in the beginning of the year by the way and I know I'm going to get crap for it but at the end of the year I expect him to stay right were he was last year, not bad but not top 10 or top 15 as many think here.
                    Noone on the Pacers played more than 30 mpg last season except for Granger that is currently on the roster. Obviously some of the players are capable of doing so, but we chose to limit minutes last year, West played a ton of minutes in the playoffs, and has throughout his career. Roy Hibbert played the second most minutes per game of any current Pacer last season, think about that. It seems unfair to just look at the raw totals and not take that into consideration. By that metric none of our players are very good, which obviously isn't true, they had the 5th best record in the NBA.
                    Goodbye Captain, My Captain. I wish you had the chance to sink or swim with your ship on its quest for the "ship".

                    Comment


                    • Re: Keeping David West

                      Also in fairness to West, even though I don't like his defense & his rebounding could be better, he did play quite a bit of his time on the floor last year as a 5. Remember whenever he & Tyler were on together it was West picking up & being guarded by the other teams Center.


                      Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                      Comment


                      • Re: Keeping David West

                        Everybody needs to remember that Vnzla81 thinks CP3 could get Hans David West type numbers and that Carl Landry would have been a better signing than David West last year.

                        In fairness that was in 2011 when David West recovery was in question but why all the hate now I have no clue.
                        Last edited by Gamble1; 10-10-2012, 04:46 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Keeping David West

                          Major Cold;1508308]That is not the argument and you know it. It is clear that you think he is a below average scorer. They used 36per stats to show that is not the case. You rightfully said that 36per can be skewed. And BillS pointed out that sometimes it is. But in West's situation it isn't. You said he makes good points.
                          I don't think he is an average scorer go back and read my reply's, I expect him to average a bit more than he did last year(maybe 13/14ppg), but not 20/21 as some has suggested, my issues is that many here love to talk about his offense while ignoring the other parts of his game, I brought up the NaphtownSeth's example in how he tell us how great West is while ignoring his D but when he talks about Tyler he craps all over the guy and also talks about Tyler's DEFENSE, people in this blog overate the crap out of the guy call him the "Pacers MPV" and the "most important player on the team" while also overrating the crap out of his leadership ability.

                          And then you said that we can't expect him to play 36 mpg. Come on dude. The point was that West is a good enough scorer, a below average overall defender, and average rebounder who plays 30 to 33 mpg and can healthily put up 14 to 16 ppg with 46 to 52 % from the field.
                          West is a good scorer, a pretty bad defender and a decent rebounder.

                          You aren't getting crap from me and others. There may be a few out there but don't lump all of us with them. You clearly don't like West, we understand. You have every right to not like him. But to say that he is below average as a scorer is flat wrong.
                          Like I said before is not that I don't like West, the part that grind my gears is the constant overrating of him in this blog, yes overrate him a bit I understand, but overrating him to the point that you think they are talking about Lebron, Howard or some superstar? No.

                          Edit: And also my other issue is that I hope the Pacers aim higher next year and don't sign West for the next 3 or 4 years to be the STARTER, if they were to sign him for 3mil a year to be the backup power forward I'm fine with that, but for him to be the starter for the next 2/3/4 years? No, if the Pacers want to compete for a championship they need to do better than West in my opinion.
                          Last edited by vnzla81; 10-10-2012, 04:52 PM.
                          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                          Comment


                          • Re: Keeping David West

                            This is interesting. IIRC, Granger was an excellent post up player in college and for at least part of his first year with the Pacers. The Ps needed his ability to play the 2 and 3 defensively more than the post play. Danny may have been a little adverse to the banging after his knee injury. All that to say, if we can't keep DWest for whatever reason, or if Paul George should be a more natural SF, then Danny as our PF would not e a bad option. He can guard most of the 4s in the league and get his shot while being checked over almost all of them. The stretch option with Danny could cause less crowding in the paint if that would help Roy's offense. Just another option if we can't or don't want to keep West and none of the pieces available can replace him.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Keeping David West

                              Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                              I don't think he is an average scorer go back and read my reply's, I expect him to average a bit more than he did last year(maybe 13/14ppg), but not 20/21 as some has suggested, my issues is that many here love to talk about his offense while ignoring the other parts of his game, I brought up the NaphtownSeth's example in how he tell us how great West is while ignoring his D but when he talks about Tyler he craps all over the guy and also talks about Tyler's DEFENSE, people in this blog overate the crap out of the guy call him the "Pacers MPV" and the "most important player on the team" while also overrating the crap out of his leadership ability.



                              West is a good scorer, a pretty bad defender and a decent rebounder.



                              Like I said before is not that I don't like West, the part that grind my gears is the constant overrating of him in this blog, yes overrate him a bit I understand, but overrating him to the point that you think they are talking about Lebron, Howard or some superstar? No.
                              Who predicted that he would score 20/21? I think you misunderstood, some people brought up the fact that he was recently scoring that much in support of the argument that he'll likely score more than he did last season next year due to health. Noone has even predicted an All-Star appearance for West next season, let alone compared him currently, or in his prime to Lebron or Howard, misrepresenting the arguments of the other side by using gross exaggerations is no way to discuss anything...

                              I would argue his leadership has been huge, you need to do no more than listen to his teammates talk about how big it has been to understand where that idea comes from. You are the one that said straight up, that West is in the bottom part of starting PF's offensively due to raw ppg. Who has argued that he's a great defender? You keep changing your argument friend. It's valid to do what Seth did because Tyler is horrible on offense and on defense. West is maybe a bit below average defensively, good offensively (worlds better than Tyler on that end) and brings his fundamentals and intangibles. Tyler is an even worse defender than West, neither are quick enough laterally to be very good there, but at least West understands team defensive concepts and doesn't hurt everyone else, Tyler on the other hand is constantly out of position and fouls way more.
                              Goodbye Captain, My Captain. I wish you had the chance to sink or swim with your ship on its quest for the "ship".

                              Comment


                              • Re: Keeping David West

                                Originally posted by Cousy47 View Post
                                This is interesting. IIRC, Granger was an excellent post up player in college and for at least part of his first year with the Pacers. The Ps needed his ability to play the 2 and 3 defensively more than the post play. Danny may have been a little adverse to the banging after his knee injury. All that to say, if we can't keep DWest for whatever reason, or if Paul George should be a more natural SF, then Danny as our PF would not e a bad option. He can guard most of the 4s in the league and get his shot while being checked over almost all of them. The stretch option with Danny could cause less crowding in the paint if that would help Roy's offense. Just another option if we can't or don't want to keep West and none of the pieces available can replace him.
                                i don't love the idea of Granger as a full time 4. we don't really become fast with that lineup, we just get vulnerable vs. big teams. Now at least we are as big/strong/tough as anyone.

                                Comment

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