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Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

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  • #46
    Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Originally posted by mattie View Post
    Great post. Not really disagreeing with you but I did want to express what my complaints are against the front office. I see a marked difference between Donnie and Bird. Bird clearly had a problem with the teams talent level.

    If Donnie came out tomorrow and said we have issues that need to be addressed at some point, I'd forget it once and for all. I personally believe, and I could be wrong, that our front office thinks the starting five going forward is good enough to beat Miami and that is just wrong.

    I know it is extremely difficult to field a true title contender. I just want that to be the goal is all. I think our front office believes that once Roy, Hill and Paul hit their peaks that will happen. I disagree. I don't think we'll be much better in three years than we are now. There isn't much room for this to peak is all.
    The Pacers only issue is that they're not Miami. It's a good possibility we'll be 2nd in the East: our group is solid. I'm not trying to attack your viewpoint here, but let me say this: many people are looking at how quickly Miami and Los Angeles became super teams and think we can do it too. We can't. The best way for us to win a championship is with a slow and steady approach, which is exactly what we're doing.

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    • #47
      Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

      I like what the Pacers did this year. If Hibbert makes some improvements to his game, and adds a bit more endurance we can beat the Heat. And if you beat the Heat in the East then you have a shot at winning the East. As we all know with Hibbert on the floor we outscored Miami in the playoffs. Adding Manhimi and Plumlee to foul/block LeBron and Wade when they take it to the hoop when Hibbert is out of the game also helps. Also, while the Heat has a star in his prime and another star on the decline. We have Granger in his prime, West maybe on a bit of a decline but solid leadership, and every other player on our roster will only get better with time. Who on Miami besides LeBron is showing that they will be able to play at the same level or better for years to come. Maybe Chalmers?

      By the way anyone who says Sixers, Knicks, and Nets are better than the Pacers are just doubters. Even Vegas odds has the low market Pacers as the third most likely team to come out of the East after Miami and Chicago.

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      • #48
        Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

        Originally posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
        What is the point of posts like this?
        I think it was a very cogent statement representing the sentiments of a lot of people on the forum, done in a way that set forth the arguments in a matter-of-fact fashion without any unnecessary "sky is falling" platitudes or (not-so-)subtle digs at the competency of the FO or ownership.

        A very pleasant thread even if I completely disagree with the conclusion.
        BillS

        A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
        Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

          Originally posted by Banta View Post
          I don't care if the Pacers win a Championship. So many people refer to the team as "we" but if they win, I don't get a share of the money or a trophy or any credit for the victories. I'm a basketball fan and the Pacers are the pro franchise in my city, which is great because it means I get to see pro hoops a lot. To that end, what I need the Pacers to do in exchange for my money is present a good product. The 2011/2012 team was a good product and it looks like a good product should be on the court for several years to come. I'm going to enjoy that while I can.
          Quoting this post to prove the point I was trying to make yesterday on the other thread, some people are just happy to "compete".
          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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          • #50
            Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

            Your theory that West's defensive and rebounding weaknesses is our key problem in getting past Miami is certainly plausible. But that's not where I am.

            I think our key problem has been a stagnant offense. Granger, Hill, and PG are all similar type players: Good defenders, long, good perimeter shooters, okay to questionable on driving to the hole, and, at the end of the day, unable to create their own shot. Neither can any of them feed the post that well. Three starters. That's a problem.

            If it weren't for David West, our offense would really stagnate.

            Had we fixed the point guard problem this summer, or if Lance breaks out, then I could see ideas for trading West to beef up the front line to improve defense and rebounding.

            I don't have the answer, but I don't think yours is an answer either. An Ibaka for West type trade screws our offense. An Ibake type player who has West's offensive skills is a superstar we could not obtain.
            Last edited by McKeyFan; 08-16-2012, 02:58 PM.
            "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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            • #51
              Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

              Originally posted by BillS View Post
              I think it was a very cogent statement representing the sentiments of a lot of people on the forum, done in a way that set forth the arguments in a matter-of-fact fashion without any unnecessary "sky is falling" platitudes or (not-so-)subtle digs at the competency of the FO or ownership.

              A very pleasant thread even if I completely disagree with the conclusion.
              Oh, it was well-structured and written, but ultimately, I disagree with it, and I still stand by my question. What's the point? There's nothing out there saying we're going to remain static and plateau at this exact same spot. During the Vogel era, we've done nothing but improve every month, and Walsh and Pritchard are proven to be active improvers.... long-term and recent history indicates the exact opposite of this post. There's just no reason to think this way, and what good does it do.
              There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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              • #52
                Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                Quoting this post to prove the point I was trying to make yesterday on the other thread, some people are just happy to "compete".
                OK, nobody said folks like that don't exist. The implication has been that it is the stand of the majority (if not the VAST majority) of fans (and of the owner and FO).

                Extreme positions exist on everything; their mere existence isn't proof of their commonality.
                BillS

                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                  Well in basketball, you really never know until the season unfolds.

                  At the end of it all, only one team for each conference will compete for the championship. While there were sure winners like Miami, there were surprises like Dallas two seasons ago. So for the Pacers, they just need to continue going up as their core is one of the strongest as a collective group.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                    The OP demonstates that he know little about sports or NBA basketball.

                    Why did I even look at this thread?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                      The only fair way to judge Donnie Walsh is by his entire body of work with the franchise.

                      Some people are to fast to blame him for what occurred after 2000 & some are to fast to forget that his tenure with Indiana did not start with the 93/94 season.

                      He was not given the name Donnie Do Nothing in 1999 he was given that name in 1989.

                      I have said all along he is a good manager (whatever title you want to give him) of basketball talent, however whenever you are dealing with Walsh Warriors that is never good enough. Every move he made is the not only the only move that was available at the time it was the exact perfect thing to do.

                      It's very hard to combat that type of thinking.

                      It's already happening again in this day and age. Look at how many people are running to defend this off season by saying what was done were the only options available and even though they were the only options available they were great if not perfect decisions.

                      Now mind you just like BillS is pointing out that not everybody is content to be competitive I'm stating that not everybody is of the mind set of Walsh Warriors but just like those who are content these types also exists.

                      I will counter all of the "look who Donnie traded for" and state that we need to go look at his trade record from 1985 to 1994 and then again from 1994 to 2000 and then 2000 till Larry took over. I think when you look at it like that you will see there were times he was very active to times where you wondered if we weren't just on cruise control.


                      Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                        [QUOTE=mattie;1493879]Quick note- I don’t intend this as a negative outlook on the Pacers future.
                        /QUOTE]

                        Your title certainly does. I think people who complain about the front office should at least give examples of things we could have done and didn't. The people pissed because the team was never as bad as they would hope shouldn't bother responding,I have no respect for their viewpoint. We offered Nash a contract and I really don't want the team adding old players. This was never a short term project.
                        Last edited by spazzxb; 08-16-2012, 04:04 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                          While I'm really enjoying the discussion in this thread, I do disagree with some of your logic, mattie.

                          You cite the 97-98 Pacers as an example of a Pacers team that could legitimately compete for a title. While that team was no doubt one of the best this franchise has ever assembled, it was only good for the 5th best record in the league that year.


                          Here's a quick look around the league in 1998:
                          -MJ and Pippen making one final run in Chicago
                          -Stockton & Malone leading a dominant Utah team
                          -New York - while not as good as years past - still had Ewing averaging a double-double, Allan Houston, LJ, Oakley, and Starks and upset a very good Miami team in the playoffs
                          -Gary Payton, Schrempf, and Vin Baker (yes, Vin Baker was pretty good once upon a time) leading Seattle to 61 wins
                          -A Shaq-led Lakers team that was only a Kobe away from dominating the next 5 years, but still good enough to win 61 games


                          Now, let's re-examine the league in 2012:
                          -Miami finally clicked, has the best player in the world coming off one of the best years a basketball player has ever had. Add Ray Allen to the mix, no reason not to expect them not to dominate.
                          -OKC is young, but loaded with talent. A trip to the NBA Finals and Olympics (for most of the core players anyway) should serve as a great learning experience. Will only get better.
                          -LAL will start Nash, Kobe, Artest, Gasol, and Howard. Granted, they're on the older side, but it is still one of the most impressive lineups in recent NBA history.
                          -Boston returns a core that is no doubt old, but very experienced, well-coached, and hungry. Let's not forget how close they came to beating Miami this year.

                          I just fail to see how 2012 is a markedly different environment than 1998. The team that pushed Jordan to Game 7 in 98 and finally reached the Finals in 2000 had largely the same core for 6 or 7 years. The 2000 Finals represented the proverbial ceiling for that group. You can argue the 98 team was better and may find a sympathetic ear or two. But what can't be argued is they lost to two better teams. Jordan and the Bulls and the beginning of a Lakers dynasty.

                          If getting to a couple Conference Finals and an NBA Finals in the 90s is considered competing for a championship, the same standard must be applied today. Looking around the league - especially the Eastern Conference - I have every reason to believe the Pacers can compete for a championship just like those 90s teams.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                            [QUOTE=spazzxb;1493964]
                            Originally posted by mattie View Post
                            Quick note- I don’t intend this as a negative outlook on the Pacers future.
                            /QUOTE]

                            Your title certainly does. I think people who complain about the front office should at least give examples of things we could have done and didn't. The people pissed because the team was never as bad as they would hope shouldn't bother responding,I have no respect for your viewpoint. We offered Nash a contract and I really don't want the team adding old players. This was never a short term project.
                            This was proven to be a myth. I don't have time right now but someone will provide us the link to the article showing that Nash went directly to the Lakers and the Pacers (nor any other team) made an offer.


                            Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                              Doesn't this offseason make some more sense though if we operate under the theory that Donnie is just keeping shop for a year while Bird rests?

                              Anyway, I'm firmly somewhere in the middle on this. I think we can compete for a title, but I definitely don't think we can win one. To me competing means, could you see a way where your team finds itself in the conference finals, my answer is yes, but right now I don't really see a way where we would find a way to win the whole damn thing unless Paul makes a gigantic leap offensively. I'm not content with just competing forever, but I do think it is a good spot to be heading into this particular season, I would have never even believed I would have those kind of hopes last summer.


                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

                                Originally posted by mattie View Post
                                By the way I'll list people who fielded teams JUST last year who could have conceivably won: Memphis, Chicago, San Antonio, LAL, Miami, and OKC. That's just last year. Every team I listed had something they brought to the table that could exploit any other team. Memphis had defense and a dominate front court. LA had three superstars, OKC and Miami both had their big three, San Antonio had one of the most explosive offenses ever. Chicago had defense and Rose.
                                There's nothing that Memphis has that the Pacers don't.
                                Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
                                Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

                                Panopticon

                                Originally posted by IrishPacer
                                Empty vessels make the most noise.

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