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Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

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  • #46
    Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
    OKC's situation is almost unprecedented. It's not like they signed any of their high level talent. Though they never drafted at number one they were in the lottery 4 straight years and fortunate enough to have 4 very good players fall to them each time-- Jeff Green (later traded for K. Perkins), Durant, Westbrook, and Harden. Then they won 50 games and took the Lakers 6 games. Then 2 years ago they made it to the conference finals. And last yr made it to the finals.

    No I'm not saying that the Pacers are anything close to OKC. But we're still a young/up-coming team with most of our players having their best years ahead of them.
    I'm sorry man but I don't buy the "up and coming team" thing, yes Hibbert, Hill and PG are probably going to be better, I don't expect much from Mahinmi, Tyler, Green, Plumlee or Augustin so they to me don't count, so the Pacers have an "up and coming team" because they have 3 players that are going to be better? I don't think so.
    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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    • #47
      Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

      Originally posted by rm1369 View Post
      I guess we just forgot to put on our blue and gold glasses. Apparently they make every move the team make, not only the correct one, but the only one possible.
      When you start off your post by basically calling anyone who might disagree with you ignorant and/or a homer, it pretty much cancels out anything else you have to say. Just sayin.
      Last edited by rabid; 07-24-2012, 03:30 PM. Reason: typos

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      • #48
        Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

        Originally posted by rm1369 View Post
        I guess we just forgot to put on our blue and gold glasses. Apparently they make every move the team make, not only the correct one, but the only one possible. I've consistantly heard those wearing them tell me how the GS trade was good ("it had to be done") while a fewsod us said it would lead to cap helll, heard how Hansbrough was a great pick ("because the Pacers can't gamble on a Holiday type"), how JOB was the only possible option to coach this team (no one else would take it), how the team can't afford any down years (32 wins apparently saved us, but 26 wins would have caused the team to move to LA), how the Pacers have never been players in FA only because they've never had cap space (seems they did this year?), or they are willing to spend, but no one wants to come here (except every quote we heard before and every quote after free agency we hear from TPTB indicates they never tried).

        So you'll have to excuse me for not believing it when I'm told this is a championship level team by that same group. I can clearly see this team is lacking the top level talent and, most importantly, go to guy to win a title. If I heard they were looking for that and I thought they were accumulating pieces to make that happen, I may be excited. But I keep being told they want to upgrade the damn bench. Couple that with the conservative history of the team ( and DW in particular) and I have very little excitement for the upcoming season.

        If people want to start telling me that makes me a bad fan - go ahead. The only reason it pisses me off is because I care about the team. I think they could do more and they sell the city and the team short by hiding behind the small market. This same market just cut arguably the greatest QB in history because it was right for the team long term. And unless the Pacers change their ways, the Colts will continue to expand their domination of the Pacers when it comes to fans. Hell, the Colts, coming off the worst record in the league, are closer to a title than the Pacers are, IMO. When they win another one before the Pacers do, it will finally give TPTB a reason for there apparent inferiority complex.
        First of all you turn a lot of people off when you suggest some of us have blue and gold glasses on. Honestly with me that taints everything you say after that. You are implying that some of us are not able to see the team as it really is.

        So do you really think they aren't trrying or willing to upgrade the starters. Of course they are. Come on, think about it. The problem is it is very difficult to upgrade these starters. It is very, very difficult to acquire a player better than Roy, David or Danny. Upgrading the bench is easy so do that first. This team has not been together for very long, a shortened season. lets not gamble and make a bad trade, lets not gamble (make a potentially bad trade) right now. lets see how good this team can be with a full season and with a better bench. I think that is at the very least a reasonable approach. But yes they are always trying to upgrade the starters. I mean do we really have to state that.


        OK, so the Colts get lucky, I mean as lucky as any franchise since the Spurs drafted Duncan and you are suggesting the pacers should try to be so lucky. How do you do that?

        Once again I'm very surprised by this thread. I think there is a lot to be excited about.
        Last edited by Unclebuck; 07-24-2012, 03:15 PM.

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        • #49
          Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

          I wish we had an owner like Mike Ilitch of the Tigers who is like 85 and all he wants to do is win. Blank checks for his gm and just wants to win a WS before he dies. Maybe with Mel it could of happen the dude actually loved basketball but with Herb I fell he just wants to be ok and stay under the tax and doesn't care about winning.

          PS. Donnie the goal shouldnt be a good team it should be a great team and almost the only way to do that is have a known name guy or "the names you hear" on your team.


          I just hate this pretty much confirms all my fears of the franchise
          Last edited by pacer4ever; 07-24-2012, 03:25 PM.

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          • #50
            Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

            Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
            First of all you turn a lot of people off when you suggest some of us have blue and gold glasses on. Honestly with me that taints everything you say after that. You are implying that some of us are not able to see the team as it really is.

            So do you really think they aren't trrying or willing to upgrade the starters. Of course they are. Come on, think about it. The problem is it is very difficult to upgrade these starters. It is very, very difficult to acquire a player better than Roy, David or Danny. Upgrading the bench is easy so do that first. This team has not been together for very long, a shortened season. lets not gamble and make a bad trade, lets not gamble (make a potentially bad trade) right now. lets see how good this team can be with a full season and with a better bench. I think that is at the very least a reasonable approach. But yes they are always trying to upgrade the starters. I mean do we really have to state that.


            OK, so the Colts get lucky, I mean as lucky as any franchise since the Spurs drafted Duncan and you are suggesting the pacers should try to be so lucky. How do you do that?

            Once again I'm very surprised by this thread. I think there is a lot to be excited about.
            It was reported that Vogel told Walsh and Pritchard to bring the same starters back so the goal was never to upgrade or trade either one of the starters.
            @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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            • #51
              Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

              Originally posted by pacer4ever View Post
              doesn't care about winning.


              If this were true we'd have dumped every salary greater than West's, refused to re-sign Roy, and just played Donald Sterling.

              Come on, now, the hyperbolic statements about our "loser" owner are starting to go over the top.
              BillS

              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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              • #52
                Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                Originally posted by BillS View Post


                If this were true we'd have dumped every salary greater than West's, refused to re-sign Roy, and just played Donald Sterling.

                Come on, now, the hyperbolic statements about our "loser" owner are starting to go over the top.
                There is a differnce in trying to win 5th in the east and a championship(one takes a lot more money and balls the other isnt really trying to win at a level you should be just trying to make money)


                You aren't owning a sports team to make money if you cant afford it sell the team I would rather see the franchise win than just be here competing for 5th in the east every year and being 1 and done in the playoffs.
                Last edited by pacer4ever; 07-24-2012, 03:29 PM.

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                • #53
                  Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                  Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                  I usually agree with you quite a bit, and in the points you make I understand where you are coming from, but you, Peck and some others drastically undersell the Walsh era Pacers. They weren't just "good enough", they were title contenders. 48 minutes from the Finals 4 out of 7 years is a title contender, period.

                  CONTENDER, not winner. Title capable teams lose to other title capable teams every year, and there's more than just 1-2 of them.

                  So Walsh has never shown any satisfaction with just being "good enough". Based on this view the Cavs were just happy being good enough during the Lebron years, and the Lakers were happy just being good enough before Phil Jackson arrived. The Knicks have spent 30+ years being happy just being good enough, look at all the non-title years to prove it.


                  Okay, so "satisfied with just making the playoffs" has 100% got to come off the Walsh/Pacers criticism board, it doesn't have any logical backing when compared to opinions of other teams that came up short but made runs at the title.




                  Having said that, my problem with this go-around is "holding it for Bird for one year" and "I was rushed back" and "letting Pritch do a lot of it". There are tons of indicators that this is a part-time gig from a guy not that involved in it, not as motivated, not as hungry.

                  He has pride in his work, but he's a place holder for Bird and a feel-good token for Herb (vs just letting Pritch run things). This is not a front-office with a clear vision, and yet ironically Donnie says "don't rush to judge" as if he's somehow got his own 5 year plan in place in which he won't even participate for most of it. This is a THREE HEADED monster instead of a 2 headed monster.

                  They are running the risk of floundering around between visions and ideals, just keeping afloat waiting for Larry to return or not return.
                  Great points on the Walsh era - he had the 90's group that were contenders every year and the pre-brawl Pacers were as good as anyone.

                  To the point of not having a clear vision, I think there is a clear vision - it's just not Walsh's. Bird is still running this team based on Walsh's comments. He took a year off for health reasons, but Bird's vision and plan is still what is guiding the decisions the FO is making. That explains the short term deal to Augustin. This explains re-signing Roy. This explains trading for Imanini. I think these were all moves Bird would have made.

                  This team is set up very nicely for the next several years. There is plenty of cap flexibility/cap room to make moves that will help this team improve. I'm of the opinion a top level free agent is not going to outright sign with the Pacers. The only way this franchise is going to win a championship is the way they did it in the 90's - develop your young guys and keep them in Blue and Gold, have a good bench, be balanced, play fundamental basketball and mix in a shrewd trade or two to fill in the gaps. IMHO this is exactly what the FO did this off season. On that point Walsh was right - "wait until you see the team play."
                  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
                  - Benjamin Franklin

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                  • #54
                    Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                    Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                    It was reported that Vogel told Walsh and Pritchard to bring the same starters back so the goal was never to upgrade or trade either one of the starters.
                    Sorry, didn't you mean that Vogel told Walsh and Pritchard to upgrade his starters and they told him they had no interest in fielding a championship team?

                    If Vogel is such a good coach, wouldn't you want your FO to listen to him? If your FO doesn't listen to the good coach (I mean, assume they made a big starting lineup move and Vogel in an interview let it be known he wasn't particularly happy with that), wouldn't people be blasting the FO for disrespecting the coach?

                    It's like some guys want to have it 5 different ways at once. You can't be on the "FO has no intention of making championship moves because they only worked on the bench" wagon and then point out that the coach is the one who didn't want to have the starting lineup messed with.
                    BillS

                    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                      Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                      It was reported that Vogel told Walsh and Pritchard to bring the same starters back so the goal was never to upgrade or trade either one of the starters.

                      OK, yes Vogel said that to the press. Come on though you know Vogel, he's the most positive guy ever. he was gushing about the bench all season long and yet what, they upgraded the bench. So of course he is going to say he didn't want to upgrade the starters because it appears the starters aren't going to be upgraded.

                      I mean sometimes you have to read between the lines.

                      Lets say a trade happens for a new starter. What do you think Frank will say then. I doubt he'll repeat his I told FO not to change the starters.

                      To be clear, I'm not saying Frank is upset right now, and I'm sure he likes the starters and he probably did tell DW and Pritch lets see what these starters can do with a better bench and a full season. I'm just saying there is not a straight line between what Frank says and what the FO will do or is trying to do.

                      They are always looking to upgrade the whole team, including the starters. No matter what Frank says in public or what he says in public in referenvce to what he says in private
                      Last edited by Unclebuck; 07-24-2012, 03:34 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                        Originally posted by Peck View Post
                        Nothing changes, even the words are the same.
                        Yes, I sure hope we aren't stuck having to hear Mark Boyle saying "Granger hits the shot to take it back to Miami for Game 7 of the ECF" and "Roy ducks under Howard to push the Nets to game 7 of the ECF" or "Ding Dong, Lebron is dead" or "The Pacers are headed to the Finals to face the Thunder".

                        Because hearing those words over and over was really a bummer the first time around.


                        And I'll tell you what, a packed house at MSA seemed to enjoy taking Boston/Bird to game 5 quite a bit too, and that was just round 1. The "horror" of the Walsh years sounds like the most spoiled sports fan complaint ever....well, along with Colts fans that hated the Dungy/Manning "choke" era of only 1 title and 2 Super Bowls appearances.

                        The Yankees 1 WS title in 12 years just called to say "we're happy just to be above .500", because I'm pretty sure how that franchise is run. If they'd spent money and chased titles they surely would have won more often, right? 7 WS wins in 50 years? That's 43 failures. That's a team that just doesn't give a s***.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                          OK, yes Vogel said that to the press. Come on though you know Vogel, he's the most positive guy ever. he was gushing about the bench all season long and yet what, they upgraded the bench. So of course he is going to say he didn't want to upgrade the starters because it appears the starters aren't going to be upgraded.

                          I mean sometimes you have to read between the lines
                          It's different if Vogel was the only one saying this but Pritchard and Walsh have said the same thing in other interviews, their goal was to upgrade the bench that was it.
                          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                            Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                            I'm sorry man but I don't buy the "up and coming team" thing, yes Hibbert, Hill and PG are probably going to be better, I don't expect much from Mahinmi, Tyler, Green, Plumlee or Augustin so they to me don't count, so the Pacers have an "up and coming team" because they have 3 players that are going to be better? I don't think so.

                            It depends on what your definition of up and coming team is. I say we're up and coming because we have a team that fits together better than we had last year. DJ is more of a distributor than what we had last yr, Mahinmi is bigger, longer and more athletic than any frontcourt player we've had in a long while. He will be able to play with Roy or with West. Green is a wild-card in that if he's able to score and defend effectively off the bench, he would give us a completely different dynamic than what we had before simply because of his size and athleticism.

                            Most teams are built on 3-4 key pieces. If Roy, Hill and PG can all reach their potential as NBA players, we'll be a strong team for years to come. I agree with you 100%, we're missing that one final piece. But in my mind we are definitely a young, up and coming team with our best years ahead of us.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                              Originally posted by pacer4ever View Post
                              There is a differnce in trying to win 5th in the east and a championship(one takes a lot more money and balls the other isnt really trying to win at a level you should be just trying to make money)


                              You aren't owning a sports team to make money if you cant afford it sell the team I would rather see the franchise win than just be here competing for 5th in the east every year and being 1 and done in the playoffs.
                              Yeah, being one and done in the playoffs this year was horrible. The whole city was really disappointed, probably no one will bother going to the games because of the poor showing the Pacers had. All because we were fifth in the East (the NBA really faked everyone out by seeding us 3rd, not sure how they pulled that off but finally they are cheating on our behalf!)

                              And, clearly, every move that the FO made this summer was designed to keep us where we were.

                              BillS

                              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                              • #60
                                Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                                Originally posted by mattie View Post
                                When have they made a risky move that they thought could take the team to a true championship level?
                                The JO/Artest/SJax/Reggie team. That was a series of risky moves (gave JO a max contract, kept Artest despite anger issues, etc) designed specifically to make a championship run.

                                We also spent and went into the luxury tax many seasons during our various ECF runs. We didn't get the results we wanted, but the front office very much took risks in order to try and put together a championship-level team.
                                Last edited by rabid; 07-24-2012, 03:45 PM.

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