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Rule #1

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Indianapolis Star

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We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

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STAR: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

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  • #16
    Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

    Originally posted by Peck View Post
    I don't say this enough but I'll say it now.

    Thank God for Herb Simon (& Mel prior to his passing).

    We have an owner who is committed to keeping the team here. I know there are arguments to be made for every side to this story but I believe in my heart that the Simons took on the franchise at the behest of Mayor Hudnut back in the 80's for the beneifit of the city/state and that they have kept it here all of these years.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

      Originally posted by odeez View Post
      Ok Pacers, now spend some of that money on the team!

      Can't. This doesn't change the salary cap situation at all.


      And anyway, the Pacers franchise was losing money previously. Getting the better deal from the city only means maybe now the franchise will break even or turn a small profit, either immediately or after the new CBA drives down the payroll.

      There isn't any infusion of new surplus cash here.







      I'm glad there's a deal, but I don't like this one much. I thought the city should have taken back the facility. It belongs to the city. The Pacers ought to have just rented space in it without further obligation to manage it.

      I wonder if there is any sort of kicker in the new agreement saying PS&E has to work harder to keep the building busy.



      And we all know what that means:

      Spoiler Spoiler:
      Last edited by Putnam; 07-12-2010, 07:44 AM.
      And I won't be here to see the day
      It all dries up and blows away
      I'd hang around just to see
      But they never had much use for me
      In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

        Yay. The Fieldhouse would've seemed awfully empty. Feels like the Pacers have touched bottom and kicked up and off. Now if one or two guys from the youth movement can just make the jump to good starter....

        Last edited by danman; 07-12-2010, 07:47 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

          http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...illion-to-stay

          The Indiana Pacers are staying in Indianapolis, but it will cost taxpayers at least $33.5 million over the next three years.

          - Matt Kryger / The Star

          RELATED INFORMATION
          Deal's highlights
          The CIB will give $30 million over the next three seasons to the Pacers.
          The CIB will make a minimum of $3.5 million in capital improvements to Conseco Fieldhouse.
          The Pacers will continue to operate the fieldhouse and keep revenues from game and nongame events.
          If the Pacers move before the 2013-14 season, they will repay $30 million to the CIB by June 30, 2013.
          The amount the Pacers repay will be reduced for each season that they continue to play at Conseco: If they play the 2013-14 season, they'll repay $28 million; by 2018-19, that would fall to $1 million.
          Sources: Capital Improvement Board, mayor's office


          Pacers' deal vs. Colts' deal
          Here's a look at some highlights from the Colts' contract and the Pacers' "interim bridge agreement."

          Length of deal
          Pacers: During the 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons, the team will play home games at Conseco Fieldhouse. After that, the team could leave if its losses are greater than $2 million per year but would have to pay a fee starting at roughly $50 million and diminishing with each year through the end of the contract in 2019.
          Colts: Must play all home games in Lucas Oil Stadium until 2034.

          Operation of arena
          Pacers: The team continues to operate Conseco Fieldhouse. The Capital Improvement Board will make a minimum of $3.5 million in capital improvements to the fieldhouse, but that could grow depending on how much money the CIB received in 2009 from an expanded sports taxing district.
          Colts: The CIB is responsible for maintenance of the stadium and game-day expenses, such as security. The Colts pay no rent and no maintenance costs.

          Other financial arrangements
          Pacers: The CIB will give $10 million each of the next three years to Pacers Sports & Entertainment to help reduce building operating expenses at Conseco Fieldhouse. The Pacers will continue to receive non-Pacers-related revenue derived from events at the fieldhouse, as well as revenues from a stadium name, signs and sponsorships in the stadium.
          Colts: The team keeps rights to all football-related revenue in the stadium, as well as half the annual nonfootball revenue, up to $3.5 million. The team receives all revenues from a stadium name, signs and sponsorships in the stadium. The city no longer must make up the difference between the team's annual revenues and the NFL median.

          Leaving town?
          Pacers: If the Pacers leave before the 2013-14 season, they will repay $30 million to the CIB by June 30, 2013.
          Colts: The team is committed to stay put for 30 years.

          Sources: Capital Improvement Board, mayor's office, Star research
          The city and the Pacers are expected today to announce an agreement hailed by some as an important step in protecting the financial state of the city but criticized by others as a multimillion-dollar bailout of a professional sports team and its billionaire owner.

          The deal comes after months of negotiations between the NBA franchise and the Capital Improvement Board, which operates the city's sports venues. It supplements the existing contract between the parties, which lasts through 2019.

          The idea of providing money to a sports franchise has incited criticism by some, but city leaders insisted they have been tough negotiators. They didn't agree to cover the full operating cost of Conseco Fieldhouse, estimated at $15 million to $18 million per year, or the roughly $25 million in capital improvements the Pacers said were needed at the fieldhouse. And they locked in what they called an important addition to the Downtown economy for three years.

          "The mayor has said we need to protect the taxpayer and we need to protect the tax base," said Robert Vane, deputy chief of staff and communications director for Mayor Greg Ballard. "This agreement does both."
          Under the terms, control of Conseco Fieldhouse -- and revenues from all events there -- will remain with the team, but unlike the current contract, the city will chip in $10 million per year for fieldhouse operations for the next three years. The city also will pay at least $3.5 million for capital improvements at the fieldhouse, an amount that has the potential to increase by up to $4.7 million.

          In exchange, the Pacers must stay in Indianapolis through the 2012-13 basketball season or pay back the entire $30 million. The team also would be on the hook for a portion of that $30 million if it left before its contract expired in 2019.

          For example, if the team left in 2016, it would pay back $19 million; if it left in 2018, it would pay back $7 million. That would be in addition to the termination fees -- estimated at $20 million-- spelled out in the existing agreement.

          If the Pacers stay through the end of their current contract, which ends in 2019, they would not have to pay any of the money back.
          So, is the new agreement a good deal for taxpayers? The answer to that question seemed to depend entirely on whom you asked Sunday evening.
          "I think we have gone so far overboard in subsidizing professional sports in this city that it's insane," said Fred McCarthy, a local political blogger and nearly 50-year Indianapolis resident. "I just think it's ridiculous that brilliant businessmen who have made themselves billionaires in the market, in the business world, can operate a business in a rent-free building and continue to lose money while they're doing it."

          Pat Andrews, vice president of the Marion County Alliance of Neighborhood Associations, put it differently.

          "It sounds like more sports welfare," she said.

          Indianapolis resident Elizabeth Koeppen, 82, said she could live with a deal to benefit the Pacers if the city was not struggling to find money to fund other city services, such as libraries, buses and basic infrastructure.

          "I think we should attend to the serious problems in our city," she said, "before we spend money for the Pacers."
          Funding for the CIB comes from taxes on things such as auto rentals, cigarettes, hotels, and food and beverages -- and not property taxes, which help fund many other city services.

          But while some argue the city can't afford to help the Pacers, the city contends that it can't afford not to.
          A study commissioned by the CIB this spring showed the team drives about $55 million worth of economic impact in Indianapolis each year, in addition to the more than 900 jobs and millions in tax revenue. Some sports economists, however, say such studies overstate the financial impact of professional sports teams.

          Others say that, beyond the economic boost, there are benefits that are hard to measure, such as the impact on the city's image.
          "The Pacers, the symphony, the Colts, the museums, the mall . . . give people reasons why they want to come live here, especially bright young people," said Jim Morris, president of Pacers Sports & Entertainment. "The best cities are competing for investment capital; they're competing for jobs."

          Indianapolis residents such as Mike Smith, 55, agree. He said helping the team is a $30 million investment that brings the community together, benefits the local economy and provides entertainment for fans such as him.

          "I don't know what I'd do without them," said Smith, a longtime Pacers fan.

          T. Noble Foster, a professor of business law at Seattle University who has studied Seattle's negotiations with its former NBA team, called the deal a good move for the team and the city.

          "They keep the team in town, and that was what they wanted," Foster said. "And it didn't cost as much as they were told it was going to cost, so I think they need to be happy with that for the moment."

          Still, Foster said he expects the Pacers won't be satisfied with the $30 million and likely will seek the $10 million per year in payments beyond the end of this three-year agreement.

          Morris did not say the team would ask for more money in three years. But he said Pacers owner Herb Simon was committed to keeping the team in the city for the next 30 years and hoped to come to an agreement that would make that possible.

          "I hope the parties will have additional conversations to ensure the Pacers will have a long-term relationship with the Capital Improvement Board," Morris said, "and to ensure whoever owns them next will keep the team in Indianapolis."

          The city also wouldn't predict whether more funding would be needed in three years -- or whether providing it would be possible. The idea behind a short-term funding plan was to allow room to reassess after new assets such as the expanded Indiana Convention Center and the J.W. Marriott hotel come on board.

          Also, an NBA collective bargaining agreement expected next summer could put the Pacers in a more favorable financial position.

          Simon first asked the city for help in the spring of 2009, when he said the team had lost about $200 million since he and his brother, the late Mel Simon, bought it in 1983. It's estimated the team is losing about $30 million per year.

          For this year, the board's efforts to cut its spending and increase revenues have provided enough money to make the $10 million payment, said CIB President Ann Lathrop. As of May, the CIB had brought in $3.8 million more in revenue than budgeted and spent $7.5 million less than budgeted.

          Much of the additional revenue came from additional sales and income taxes from an expanded sports district passed by the legislature as part of an assistance package last year, and from events such as the Final Four NCAA men's basketball tournament.

          Lathrop acknowledged that sustaining those revenue sources, even with the new hotel and convention space, will depend on the economy, but she said the board also is working to cut costs over the long term through things such as information technology consolidation and energy cost savings.

          The CIB and the three-member board that issues its debt service are expected to vote on the proposal Friday.

          Because the CIB is finding the money within its existing budget, the City-County Council does not have to sign off on this year's spending. But the council can control whether the CIB makes future payments through the budgeting process.


          Edit: Sorry, didn't see BoomBaby33's post when I posted. Anyway, here's the article if you're too lazy to click the link.
          Last edited by tsm612; 07-12-2010, 08:18 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

            I'm kind of worried about what might happen in 2019 now.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

              Originally posted by Bball View Post
              I don't think this changes anything to what I think is going on. At least not judging by legible parts of the paper. Actually, this would be an expected step...

              I agree. I don't see where this changes anything. It doesn't mention anything about a change in ownership, just moving the Pacers out of Indy. With a new contract with the City of Indianapolis, possible new ownership would have an agreement in place with the City concerning Conseco. This new contract ties up a loose end to help Herb Simon sell the Pacers. In the event Herb Simon sells the Pacers, the City has an agreement that would be costly for new ownership to move the Pacers from Indy. That's the main thing, protecting the City from the Pacers being moved, not Herb Simon selling the Pacers. I don't see this new agreement changes anything in regards to Herb Simon selling the Pacers if he decides that is what he wants to do.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                By definition everything that helps the current economic state of the Pacers helps a potential sale. That doesn't mean that the purpose is to sell.
                BillS

                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                  I don't have the time to really get into this today. I'm glad that those of you who really thought the Pacers would have an opportunity to go elsewhere in this economic climate feel better now. Of course, in 3 years the talk'll start right up again, and just like with the federal bailouts, a precedent has been set.

                  Ooh, and please don't give me, "Yeah, PS&E wanted $15M in free money a year, and the city only gave them $10M. That's a tremendous deal."
                  Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                    I do not understand why people are so up in flames, like Citizen A is forced to pay for the Pacers.

                    That fact is the CIB taxes are not mandatory taxes. You don't have to buy or use Cigarettes, rental cars, hotel rooms, event tickets, eating out, drinking alcohol.

                    So you are not forced to pay for anything! All of these things are usage. I'd love for somebody to actually prove they are forced to pay for the Pacers.
                    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                      For the approximate $10 or so per man, woman, and child that this agreement costs the taxpayers per year, why don't the Pacers send a $10 off voucher to each and every one of them somehow as compensation, with that voucher being good towards any ticket purchase or Pacers merchandise purchase they make? That way they can say that they are giving back to the community while promoting the franchise.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                        Originally posted by Brad8888 View Post
                        For the approximate $10 or so per man, woman, and child that this agreement costs the taxpayers per year, why don't the Pacers send a $10 off voucher to each and every one of them somehow as compensation, with that voucher being good towards any ticket purchase or Pacers merchandise purchase they make? That way they can say that they are giving back to the community while promoting the franchise.
                        Because then they would lose more money. They dont' want our money, just to give it back to us in the form of store credit.
                        You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                          Originally posted by Trophy View Post
                          I think we'll be able to pay the city back in the end.

                          We're going to be successful by then.
                          According to the Pacers brand of accounting, they lost money even when they were successful. They won't pay back squat. By 2019, I'm sure they'll be back with their hands cupped together, talking about how the Fieldhouse just isn't nearly good enough to support an NBA franchise and it needs $XX million in improvements just to remain competitive.
                          Spoiler Spoiler:

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                            Three questions:
                            1. How can the Pacers ever make profit when they've even lost money while being among the top 5 teams in the league with sold-out arenas and numerous consecutive playoff appearences?
                            2. What the hell are the reasons for them losing money in their best seasons?
                            3. Reading the reactions to the article on indystar.com, it seems like about 90 % of readers (= inhabitants of Indiana) hates the Pacers and wants them to leave. Is the perception really that bad or what's going on on the other side of the Pond?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                              Originally posted by 31andonly View Post
                              Three questions:
                              1. How can the Pacers ever make profit when they've even lost money while being among the top 5 teams in the league with sold-out arenas and numerous consecutive playoff appearences?
                              2. What the hell are the reasons for them losing money in their best seasons?
                              3. Reading the reactions to the article on indystar.com, it seems like about 90 % of readers (= inhabitants of Indiana) hates the Pacers and wants them to leave. Is the perception really that bad or what's going on on the other side of the Pond?
                              Well i'm not sure how it is in Deutschland, but Indianapolis is full of idiots who don't understand anything about taxes, and who collects them, and things certain taxes pay for and what they can't pay for. Generally an uneducated society, who only pays attention to buzz words. Taxes=equal bad! Tax cuts= hell yeah! Parks and library closes due to tax cuts= hey whats the deal! why would close our parks and librarys!
                              Last edited by graphic-er; 07-12-2010, 10:17 AM.
                              You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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                              • #30
                                Re: SIAP: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)

                                This is great news....although there are alot of people in Indianapolis that don't support the decision, but these are either bandwagon/frontrunner fans or people that don't watch sports/nba at all. Oh well, can't make everybody happy.
                                Larry Bird and Ryan Grigson- wasting the talents of Paul George and Andrew Luck

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