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Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

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  • #16
    Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

    Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post

    Honestly, my vision got very blurry about a quarter into the Jim O'Brien stuff.

    Was that from tears, b/c of so much truth you couldn't read further?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

      Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
      Was that from tears, b/c of so much truth you couldn't read further?
      Go back and re-read my post, I've added some good stuff (I think)

      No honestly my vision did become blurry. Sometimes I get headaches and neck aches that cause blurred vision when i'm sitting at a desk.

      You asked.
      Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-15-2010, 09:50 AM.

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      • #18
        Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

        Originally posted by Chuck Chillout View Post
        Even went so far as to conclusively state that Price is never going to be a starter. As if he was a competent judge of talent.
        That's not the way I took the Price comment. I took that as Price is not ready to be the sole starter just yet. Maybe at some point, with this team, or another one. But not yet. It didn't seem to me that JOB was saying AJ would never be a starter.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

          Originally posted by Peck View Post
          Larry Bird.

          Sorry guys I have been solidly in Birds corner since he took over. I actually like the players he has drafted, traded for or gotten via free agency.

          But his extension of O’Brien to a guaranteed contract for next year is about all I can stand.

          At some point in time you don’t blame Ron Artest for going Artest just like you don’t put a fox in a chicken coop and expect it to not react.

          Well same principle applies here. You can’t blame Jim O’Brien for being Jim O’Brien at this point in time. You can make a logical argument that he had to have him here for three years because of money. Fine I can live with that, I don’t like it but I can live with it. But there is no way in hell this guy should have ever been extended.

          Forget whether or not he lost the team, we can guess but will never truly know, but for certain that guy has lost the majority of the fans. If you haven’t been to the fieldhouse when his name is announced in the pre-game the boo’s come loud, early and often. You can not hear it on TV because the music is drowns it out and they better thank God that they play the music there because if not I’m afraid it would be embarrassing.

          Now I am even going to give Jim some credit here. Why in the name of God did Bird go out and get players that he had to know that Jim would not want to use? In fact you can make a logical argument that Bird has done nothing but sabotage O’Brien from the get go by trading for a traditional post up center and dribble penetration point guard who didn’t have a three point shot to getting a wing player in the free agent market that did not have an outside shot.

          So from today forward every time that I see Troy Murphy at the five spot or I have to try and figure out which of the 6’4” players is the power forward I will no longer blame Jim O’Brien.

          From this day forward this all falls squarely on the shoulders of Larry Bird. It is obvious that Bird supports this and if he doesn’t support this he should have made a change.

          Like Fox Mulder I still want to believe in what Bird is doing but frankly nothing and I mean nothing will change next season because until we change the culture of our team (where have we heard that before) from the top then nothing else matters. We may all want a power player in the draft or some great point guard, but none of those matters at all if we have a coach who will either misuse them or not use them at all.
          Okay, some one correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we run a variation of the Princeton offense? That what it seems to me. It seems to be an offense based on most of the players hanging around the permeter for either backdoor cuts or a three point shot. It's an offense designed for a team whose players aren't the most athletically talented and is supposed to allow you to match up better against more talented, athletic teams. The key is that you outsmart your opponent by punishing them with the backcuts and tagging them with the three pointers when they sag off in anticipation.

          And isn't that type of offense based on a supreme passing center?

          That is one of the major issues I've had with this team. Bird seems to be recruiting round pegs to fit in a square hole.

          The best example of the Princeton offense is the past were those Adelman teams with Divac and Webber being the hub for the offense. Do we have a comparable player? Princeton offense requires a quick thinking guard who's forte is passing, not penetration. Do we have that?

          Now will say when we drafted Hibbert, I saw him as a young Illgaukas type...and I still do, but O'Brien won't use him that way. Make him the hub for the offense and work on his passing skills. With his shooting range, he could/should fullfill a type of role Brad Miller did for us.

          (BTW, statistically, the best passing big men in the league are guys like David Lee, Boozer, Duncan and David West)

          (edit-I just got to thinking, after mentioning David Lee's passing, the Knicks have three players who would fit into what O'Brien says he wants to do: David Lee, Sergio Rodriquez and Bill Walker. Interesting)

          Maybe I'm off base, and someone tell me if I am, but I just don't see what we're trying to do in terms of meshing our personnel with our offensive style. I just don't see what our focus is and that is driving me crazy and I blame Bird as much as O'Brien. And then Bird gives him an extension? What is our identity? What are we trying to do?
          Last edited by Skaut_Ech; 04-15-2010, 10:03 AM.
          Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

            Originally posted by owl View Post
            After saying all that, do you really believe this team with another coach is a PLAYOFF team?
            As frustrating as OB might be, is this a playoff team? I think anyone would say no.
            This is a team devoid of talent or the talent is too young.


            Also, for the admins, where is the profanity filter, specifically the GD filter which was put in place awhile back. As an admin can you overide the filter? If you have I am disappointed.
            You know what, yes, yes I do. I bet you Larry Brown would have had this team in the playoffs. I bet Scott Skiles would have had this team in the playoffs. A coach that emphasizes disciplined shot selection, brings an offense that is actually geared toward our personnel, and a coherent rotation pattern would do wonders for this team (I didn't care for playing non-PF at the PF position when we had PF's available). I don't think JOB is the devil or nothing, but I do think his coaching philosophy is not a good fit for this team as currently constructed.
            Last edited by NapTonius Monk; 04-15-2010, 10:03 AM.

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            • #21
              Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

              Chuck already said it. It was Jim O'Brien clamoring for more defensive/athletic players, and Bird got him the Jones boys. Now Jim doesn't want his new toys anymore.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                Honestly, my vision got very blurry about a quarter into the Jim O'Brien stuff.

                Not decided if I am going to get into any of this right now. I really just want to enjoy the playoffs starting Saturday. Not sure there is much to say about the Pacers. Maybe in a day or two.

                edit: I will add this, I don't have a feel if Jim is coming back or not. The Pacers really, really, really NEED to make the playoffs next season, for the survivial of the "Indiana" Pacers they really need to make the playoffs. They also really need to keep every season ticket holder they have that is threatening or has decided not to renew because Jim is the coach.

                If Herb has a meeting with Bird and tells him his job depends on the pacers making the playoffs next season and Herb tells him yes if that means firing O'Brien and we have to pay his salary (what is his salary for next season by the way $3M?) so be it, MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. Coaches salary does not count against the cap, luxury tax, so in effect it is a cheap $3M.

                Honestly right now, without knowing any of the inner workers of the franchise or knowing what the relationship is between the coaches and the players, (I cannot determine that from this season, I could make a strong case either way) I think there is an better than 50% chance that Jim is not the coach next season. I'd out the odds at probably 60/40 that he is not back as coach.

                If the playoffs are a must next season (with still looking towards next summer as the time to re-make the team) then changing coaches is probably the least expensive way to assure a playoff berth. (we'll see if anyone is reading my posts anymore)

                First off, I ALWAYS READ YOUR POSTS. We may disagree about our views on "certain" issues, but I look forward to reading your posts.

                You are more confident Jimmy won't be here than I am. I agree with your "the Pacers HAVE to make the playoffs next year" comment. It's on ownership and the Bird to make it happen.

                As you get older the aches n pains get more frequent. I know, what a wonderful thing to look forward to..... old age. Elizabeth Barrett Browning wrote "come grow old with me for the best is yet to be."
                Last edited by Justin Tyme; 04-15-2010, 10:11 AM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                  Originally posted by Justin Tyme
                  Robert Browning wrote "come grow old with me for the best is yet to be."

                  fixed.







                  .
                  And I won't be here to see the day
                  It all dries up and blows away
                  I'd hang around just to see
                  But they never had much use for me
                  In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                    Jim O'Brien's best record, 49 - 33 in 8 professional years. He's just not good.
                    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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                    • #25
                      Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                      The one thing in your commentary that really jumped out to me was Bird's drafting history.

                      I know I said this in another thread, but you can look at any successful franchies be it in the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB, or English premier league and you see a coaching staff and front office on the same page. The Colts are a pass first team so Polian goes out and gets athetlic lineman that can pass block becuase they fit our system the best. He is not going to go out and get a road grader that can't pass block when our system is a passing system.

                      What has made me question Bird is the fact that he has not drafted or traded for guys that fit the system. Tyler Hansbrough does not spread the court at all. His range is very limited and it is nonexistent in three point land. Hibbert does not spread the court. TJ could not hit a three if his life depended on it. D Jones is a good defensive player, but again he does not shoot the three well. None of these guy fits the system O'Brien has in place. Why would you draft people who do not fit the system? Why did you draft a PF who has limited range when Lawson who shot over 40% in college from three point land and can penetrate as well? Lawson is a much better fit for a JOB system compared to Hansbrough.

                      Do not get me wrong I like the guys Bird has brought in, but it does not make sense because they do not fit the system.

                      This also goes back to JOB and him being a bad coach. Like you touched on the guy is so full of himself and his system he refuses to change his system. A sign of a good coach is someone who will tweak their system to get the full potential out of guys. Instead JOB just says screw it and goes with his system no matter what as shown by his reluctance to play Hibbert.

                      Last night with Murphy playing center at the end even though Hibbert was having a career night and eating up the Wizard it just sums up everything that is wrong with JOB.

                      Do not even get me started on Murphy's lack of anything resembling defense.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                        Peck, I haven't had a chance to fully digest your post.

                        Yet your analysis on Troy's defense last night was spot on. There were probably 5 occasions where he just laid the red carpet down for McGee or Blatche to do what they want in the lane.

                        I haven't watched a full Pacers game in quite some time. But being at a game, at center court, in the 10th row I fully realized how little the Pacers value the ball, and how many offensive possessions they squander out of simple carelessness.

                        Roy Hibbert though, looked like an All-Star last night. His development has been a thing of beauty.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                          Originally posted by thewholefnshow31 View Post
                          What has made me question Bird is the fact that he has not drafted or traded for guys that fit the system. Tyler Hansbrough does not spread the court at all. His range is very limited and it is nonexistent in three point land. Hibbert does not spread the court. TJ could not hit a three if his life depended on it. D Jones is a good defensive player, but again he does not shoot the three well. None of these guy fits the system O'Brien has in place. Why would you draft people who do not fit the system?
                          My answer to this so far has been "Because Bird doesn't believe in Obie's system either and is just passing time until we get rid of the $42mil in stupid contracts that we're paying right now."

                          But that's when I thought Obie's extension was unguaranteed.
                          This space for rent.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                            Originally posted by Anthem View Post
                            My answer to this so far has been "Because Bird doesn't believe in Obie's system either and is just passing time until we get rid of the $42mil in stupid contracts that we're paying right now."

                            But that's when I thought Obie's extension was unguaranteed.
                            So with the extension being guaranteed it makes all of this look worse. Obviously Bird disagrees with the system becuase he has brought in guys who do not fit it at all. Yet, he then proceeds to give the guy who runs the system he does not like a guaranteed extension. What sense does that make?

                            I freely know that guys like Bird know more about basketball then I ever will, but to me common sense says not to do what Bird did. Common sense would say give JOB a non-guaranteed extension and if he cannot turn it around you fire him and move on and find someone who fits the talent you have in place. Either that or you say this is our coach and I am going to give him guys who fit his system.

                            I am just left baffled over this.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                              After hearing the worst possible news of everything from Larry today. I almost expect them to keep Jim for another 3 years after next and resign Troy to a Jeff Foster like contract after next season. I have pretty much lost any hope in Larry's direction for this team.

                              This ship of fools can sail away from me.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

                                Loved it!!!
                                http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
                                "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetime’s worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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