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Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

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  • #16
    Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

    Up until fairly recently I'd never heard anything but good comments about boxing out. I'm still surprised there's a following that's against it. To me you should box out until the ball has hit the floor, then go get it. Of course if it falls right to you just grab it, but otherwise I'd rather pin the other team between me and the ball before I just run after it as opposed to making it a free for all.

    Actually, tbird, I view it like you were saying about setting bad screens on a pick & roll: If you do it right, you "pin" your defender behind you as you roll to the basket, but if you don't, they can slide quickly to keep up with you. To me it's the same with boxing out vs. not boxing out in terms of keeping your man in a place you want him to be before you run after something, vs. just letting him race you.

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    • #17
      Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

      It is all about pinning your man and getting position. It should be a learnable thing. But it is rarely practiced.

      I played a year at college (nothing spectacular think worse than juco). The only reason why I played was screening, rebounding, and defense. If I was not so fundamentally sound I would have been watching from the stands. I say fundamentally sound, but it was more like more fundamental that others.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

        #1 - FUNDAMENTALS

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        • #19
          Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

          Originally posted by intridcold View Post
          How can our players use screens better?

          Another great question.

          In general, it is hard to tell if the Pacers have really good cutters on the roster or not, because our screen SETTERS have had such flaws in the past few seasons.
          I believe Nesterovic and especially Hibbert will be above average screeners for us, and Hibbert may be the best screener we've had since Dale Davis.

          I believe the biggest recipients of better screens being set by our bigs will be Mike Dunleavy and Brandon Rush. I suspect Granger might be a good cutter and reader of screens, but I need to see more of him playing with good screeners to be able to tell.

          To cut off screens better, our cutters need to fake better before coming off the screen, in order to set up the defender to be screened at a better angle. "If your man is playing you high take him higher, if your man is playing you low take him lower" is the general rule of thumb.

          By faking before you cut, it also by nature makes yourself WAIT on the screen to get there, which is a problem I see Granger having sometimes.....he takes off before the screen arrives, anxious and impatient. Stephen Jackson had this issue really bad too.

          But I'd say by far the biggest problem lots of our players have (and most players in reality) is that they STARE AT THE BALL TOO MUCH. Again, this is an anxiousness problem.....you should be looking at your man, reading him and listening to your screeners verbal communication so you know what type of cut to use and where to go on the floor before looking up to see where the ballhandler is.

          This is a key critical thing to understand you guys. Great cutters watch their defender, "read" him and the situation correctly and make the proper cut, in order to create the maximum space away from him.

          Average players/cutters decide where to cut and watch the ball to see if they are going to get the ball or not....the proper thing is to make the appropriate basketball move/decision/cut, THEN look up to see the ball.

          This really isnt that hard for players to do.....it just sounds harder when you type it out like this.

          So, in summary, to be a better cutter you need to :

          1. "fake your cut"
          2. "Cut lower to be faster"
          3. " watch your defender, not the ball"
          4. "keep moving, be relentless and persistent"

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          • #20
            Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

            Forgetting team defense for a moment (which I consider to be a bit overrated)
            I disagree with this and I think your own "Being a good teammate" and "communication" disagree with it too. The whole point of those aspects on the defensive end are to create good team defense.

            My #1 view of successful ball is spacing. How you create it, how you eliminate it, and how you shut it down before it can even start.

            The main reason I like Rush is that he and Chalmers were both very good at leaning into each other's space in order to minimize the advantages a team was getting with screens and ball movement.

            I hate when "lockdown" defenders just stick with their guy no matter what when a solid angle and a bit of drift can close off a space and still protect their part of the floor.

            It's not just shortening rotation space, it's more the ease of passing lanes. Make a guy have to bounce it so it gets there slower and gives the post defender a chance to establish strong position (or lets a help defender get there), force a higher skip pass so a guy has to go up to get it and can't go right into his dribble, etc.

            Too often guys will let the play run smoothly if their man isn't directly involved and that makes it harder on their teammates.

            Plus JOB continues this view with his deflections emphasis and Brandon is outstanding in that area. Like McKey what you often see is that he'll cut down the momentary advantage, force the ball somewhere else and not get credit for being the guy shutting down the weaker opportunity the offense is forced to go to.

            A lot of blocked shots come from a guy trying to force the action in a situation that the defense can see happening, and that often means that something better has already been denied.

            Don't even get me started on denying post feed passes.



            Screens - Hibbert may be slow but he is a strong screener. If they can make things work with his slower game he can hurt teams. I do like his fundamentals.

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            • #21
              Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

              Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
              I hate when "lockdown" defenders just stick with their guy no matter what when a solid angle and a bit of drift can close off a space and still protect their part of the floor.
              Yes - we had a certain former DPOY that wasn't very good at "help"/ "team" defense. At times, he'd still be locking his guy down 25 feet from the basket instead of helping and then he'd want everybody to pat him on the back for his individual effort (often while pointing out the defensive lapses of his teammates, just to take the situation from bad to worse.)
              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
              And life itself, rushing over me
              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                Originally posted by Burtrem Redneck View Post
                good gods, number 1 has to be boxing out. After watching JO all these years... I sure hope Hibbert knows what he is doing. That is the NUMBER 1 fundamental that kids are taught in every good basketball camp in indiana, but yet it is such a weakness in so many player's over all game.
                Like I've said many times before, one of the greatest coaches ever, John Wooden, didn't believe in boxing out. He wanted all 5 guys to go to the ball, instead of waiting back for it.

                I think we all would agree that Foster is an excellent rebounder, and he doesn't box out hardly at all, if ever. He gets away with it by with pure instincts. Some players just understand how/where the ball is going to come off and get in position. You really have to want the ball to get by doing that as well.


                IMHO, there isn't a set way to rebound. Each player should be coached on their ability. Foster's production would go down if he boxed out, but JO's would go up.
                Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                  I think it's okay to disagree with anyone, including John Wooden. Let's not make Legends out to be infallible. And really, I'm not trying to say he's wrong, just that I disagree and think there's another way. One I happen to think is better.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                    I still say John Wooden wanted his players to find a man, seal him, and THEN go get the ball. That's still blocking out.

                    -Bball
                    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                    ------

                    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                    -John Wooden

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                    • #25
                      Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                      Indeed, Bball.

                      But the more athleticism there is involved, the more you have to be an "active rebounder" instead of waiting for it to come towards you. Boxing out is absolutely paramount to rebounding at lower levels up to and including the NCAA. And, yes, it is very necessary in the NBA as well.

                      But, it's much more likely that a 6'3" high school PF will be able to block out the 6'2" PF that he's fighting with and secure the ball as it comes down from the height of, say, 12 feet after clanging of the iron than it is for Jeff Foster to expect to end up with the same ball if Amare Stoudamire is anywhere nearby. Sure, it's nice to pin Amare back a little bit and improve your position (and worsen his) before leaping, but if you don't break that seal quickly and attack the ball as it comes off the rim, a guy like Amare will just jump up and pluck it out the sky.

                      Essentially, when guys nearby can literally touch a spot 18 inches above the rim, you can't spend much time waiting around for the ball to hopefully come your way if you expect to be a good rebounder. At the NBA level of physical heights and vertical leaps, about half the rebounds are decided in the air above the rim. Not so much in any other league. That's the difference between boxing out being an actual end-all-be-all of rebounding at lower levels and a fundamental that former high school glory days reminiscers tend to overrate in the NBA.
                      Last edited by JayRedd; 08-04-2008, 04:53 PM.
                      Read my Pacers blog:
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                      • #26
                        Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                        Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                        I think it's okay to disagree with anyone, including John Wooden. Let's not make Legends out to be infallible. And really, I'm not trying to say he's wrong, just that I disagree and think there's another way. One I happen to think is better.
                        The discussion is about the top underrated aspects of the game.

                        I would think that when there are clearly two completely different concepts when it comes to boxing out, by some of the greatest minds ever, it doesn't fall in the category. That was my point.

                        Wooden's resume speaks for itself. I tend to think the philosophy on boxing out becomes pretty trival on which is better if such records can be achieved by not doing it.

                        Originally posted by Bball View Post
                        I still say John Wooden wanted his players to find a man, seal him, and THEN go get the ball. That's still blocking out.

                        -Bball

                        He didn't teach making contact with the opposing player at all, only to get in their way and go after the ball.

                        http://books.google.com/books?id=B_n...um=8&ct=result

                        simply step in your opponents path, and go after the ball. Wooden's method, called called the check-and-go, might be best when your quickness and leaping ability are much superior to your opponent's.

                        He might be playing semantics, with it boxing out or not, but he doesn't mean seal the opposing player with body contact. Putting your body directly in the path of the opposing player and the ball seals them from it.

                        EDIT: I'll add on to it. I know I've told the story before, but my first intro to Wooden and this philosophy was in person listening to him talk at Hinkle Fieldhouse about 6-7 years ago. He said boxing out tended to turn into fighting for position, instead of fighting for the ball. Players would be so worried about making contact and holding them off, they would completely forget that the ball is needed to get a rebound. The aspect of boxing out became more important than the ball itself.

                        By putting your body between the opposing player's and the ball forced them to go around you or go through you.
                        Last edited by Since86; 08-04-2008, 05:10 PM.
                        Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                          Even a few years ago, I'd be the type of crazy fan that would scream at Pacers that did not box out. (Rik Smits, I'm still talking to you.) Then I started studying this John Wooden school of thought, and my opinion has changed.

                          In fact, in the NBA, I think it is far more important for the guards to either box out or cherry pick, but the forwards and centers need to have a knack for the ball.

                          It helps for each team to have a rugged rebounder (like Dale) and a speed/ timing rebounder (like Jeff.) Of course, I'd also like a rebounder that can put an offensive rebound back into the damn basket, and so that eliminates both Jeff and Dale from consideration.
                          Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                          Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                          Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                          Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                          And life itself, rushing over me
                          Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                          Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                            Did Wooden's philosophy on boxing out come before or after his "have twice as much talent as the team you're playing" philosophy?

                            Wooden's a great coach, no doubt, but the key to the level of success that he had was talent, not his views on boxing out.

                            However, I think this sums up the situation best:

                            Originally posted by Since86
                            IMHO, there isn't a set way to rebound. Each player should be coached on their ability. Foster's production would go down if he boxed out, but JO's would go up.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                              I don't think Rodman worried about boxing out as much as being an expert on where the ball was going to end up. I remember rading or hearing him say that is what he did. He tried to be where the ball was going to end up. That may take more time to learn than boaxing out.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Winning basketball: Top 10 Underrated basketball traits/fundamentals

                                Originally posted by ChicagoJ View Post
                                It helps for each team to have a rugged rebounder (like Dale) and a speed/ timing rebounder (like Jeff.) Of course, I'd also like a rebounder that can put an offensive rebound back into the damn basket, and so that eliminates both Jeff and Dale from consideration.
                                Didn't Jeff's putbacks improve immensely this year (yeah, I know, like it would be hard not to) since he became more involved in offense as a whole?
                                BillS

                                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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