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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

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We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

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There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

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In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

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If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

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How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

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  • How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

    Ok this has been on my mind for a while. I'm sure that many of you think Iím really stupid for asking this. I mean duh, every fan wants their team to win a championship.

    But really, what is the greatest thrill in sports? Is it really the end of the race or is it the steps you took to get to the end?

    Take the Colts for example. Would that championship have been so sweet if there werenít upsets and disappointments along the way? From getting beat by the Pats to losing to the underdog Steelers didn't the heartaches make that championship that much better? I remember more about the Colts Superbowl season than I do about the Superbowl game itself.

    You look at the Pats this past season. I mean yeah it sucks to win every game but that last one. But does that really mean that their season was a failure?

    This really started to get on my mind with Bruce Pearl. I remember his name being brought up for IU's job and there were IU fans saying "oh you can't win a championship playing like that" and stuff like that. And you know what, I really don't care. Especially in college basketball it is very tough to win it all.

    Billy D wins two national championships in a row and all of a sudden he is one of the best coaches in the country. Before yeah he was good but after those two titles he is in the elite category. Sure, winning those two was very special but does anyone really think that Billy D made major changes to win those two titles? I doubt it. I think he was just as good of a coach the year before they won the first one as he was after they won the second one.

    I did not follow the Pacers in the 90s, or the NBA for that matter, but let me ask those who did this. Would you trade those years for say one championship followed by 4 lottery team years? Is being the one team to win it all really that much better than being there year after year.

    We talk about how hard it is to draft well and it is. One year you might get Tim Duncan and the next it might be Michael Oloawakandi. That could be the difference between winning 3 championships and winning none. That is the difference between being in the playoffs year in and year out and being the lottery year in and year out.

    I ask this because with this Pacers team I have no hope. I see no real direction. We can't look at this team and say, if we just add this one last piece to the team we might be able to win it all. I don't see us getting lucky and adding a Tim Duncan or Chirs Paul type of player.

    So how important is winning the championship to you, as a fan? Like I said, sure everyone has a desire for one I know. But is it really what fans need to look at their teams and call it a success? Would Pacers fans think that much more of Reggie if he had won one here? Would Jazz fan think that much more of Stockton and Malone if they had won one?

  • #2
    Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

    I didn't always feel this way, but I do now. I would absolutely trade every playoff season the Pacers ever had for them to have broken through and won just once, especially when Reggie was here. I used to feel that it was more important to give yoursef a chance to win each and every year. All that did was give the Pacers 15 years of good but not good enough. An NBA title would definitely be more meaningful than that.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

      How important is a championship to you, as a fan?
      Not very. First and foremost I want to like the team and be entertained. Then I want to be competitive. A championship is a by product of the first two, not the end all of everything.

      The very best entertainment is to have your team make an unexpected run at the championship, and if they get it, there is nothing sweeter in sports.

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      • #4
        Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

        A championship for me for either the Pacers or IU basketball would be beyond words. I enjoyed the Colts Super Bowl win and I took a lot of pride in that, but the first sports team I ever really cared for was the Pacers and now IU basketball also holds a special spot in my life.

        P.S. And yes I think a championship added to Reggie's resume would make a HUGE difference.


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        • #5
          Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

          I'm making this short but sweet...

          Reaching a goal first really is the only reason why we have anything competitive. Duh.

          In the case of professional sports, you have to look at the smaller picture (a game/match/race) first in order to look at the bigger picture (tournaments and/or a championship).

          You always want to win, there is no reason to compete if there is no desire to win. This is true in anything competitive.

          Look at it this way, if you don't look at the big picture, let alone the small one, what is the point of a sporting event?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

            [quote=duke dynamite;720313]

            Reaching a goal first really is the only reason why we have anything competitive. Duh.

            I disagree with most of what you said.

            For most people it's the fun of the competition, not the winning that's important. I've been in many a bowling league that I knew we didn't have an apples chance in a bakery of winning.

            Another example, which is more fun? Beating your five year old little sister at basketball, or playing a neighbor where you are so evenly matched that it was nip and tuck all the way and you had a ball, win or lose?

            You always want to win, there is no reason to compete if there is no desire to win. This is true in anything competitive.

            You don't always want to win, For example, what if your team has locked up it's position for the season and is just waiting for the playoffs? You know they are going to rest their players so you bet they will lose? What if your tanking for a better draft position?

            Have you seen the poker movie, "Lucky you?" The guy threw away a winning hand because he didn't want to beat his dad.

            As for there being no reason to compete if there is no desire to win. There's always desire to compete even when you know you can't win.

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            • #7
              Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

              My dad died in the fall of 1986. He had been a Bears fan all his life and he got to see McMahon and Co. win it all just a few months earlier. It made him happy.

              I want the Pacers to win an NBA championship in my lifetime. It doesn't have to be this season or next, or even the one after that. But I want them to win a championship. I want the Pacers to be entertaining and to represents Indiana well every season. That is necessary. But it isn't sufficient. I want them to win it all at least once. I'll die a chump if they don't.
              And I won't be here to see the day
              It all dries up and blows away
              I'd hang around just to see
              But they never had much use for me
              In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

                Originally posted by Putnam View Post
                My dad died in the fall of 1986. He had been a Bears fan all his life and he got to see McMahon and Co. win it all just a few months earlier. It made him happy.

                I want the Pacers to win an NBA championship in my lifetime. It doesn't have to be this season or next, or even the one after that. But I want them to win a championship. I want the Pacers to be entertaining and to represents Indiana well every season. That is necessary. But it isn't sufficient. I want them to win it all at least once. I'll die a chump if they don't.
                I agree with pretty much everything here but the "die a chump" part. I want the Pacers to win a championship, and I'm disappointed every year that they don't, but...I don't know how to explain it.

                I was a fan in the '80's, when it was horrible...when reaching mediocrity was a cause for celebration. For me, it's all somewhat unconditional.

                I guess to re-phrase the question: "If somebody told you, with absolute certainty, that the Pacers would not win a Championship in your lifetime, would you stop cheering for them?" I would answer, no. I will always be a Pacer Fan...I will always hope for the next win.

                A championship is important. It is the pinnacle, but it's not the only thing. I felt the same way about the Colts prior to their Superbowl.

                Would I trade the 15-16 years of playoffs, including the 7 or 8 years in there where we were actually contenders for one title? I honestly don't know. I'm sure the title would be fantastic, but I remember how horrible those early '80's were.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

                  Well, the one thing I want first and foremost is to feel that the franchise is commited to the larger goal of contending/winning a championships and executing the steps necessary to put themselves in position to attain it.

                  I don't doubt the commitment is not there, but the execution part the last 5 years or so leaves me with an empty feeling of bumbling and poor decisoins.

                  The Pacers winning a championship would be squarely atop my sports wishlist as a fan, way outdistancing anything else. In fact, it's really the only personally meaningful, long-term want I have for any team of which I am a supporter. Everything else pales in comparison.

                  However, I have to add that despite that one fervent desire, their winning a championship in my lifetime is not some make or break issue as to my happiness or fulfillment. Of course I love it, but it's still just sports.

                  At this point, I'd just be happy to see TPTB make some moves that convince me we are simply moving things back in the right direction towards being able to compete at the elite level sometime in the relatively near future.
                  I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                  -Emiliano Zapata

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                  • #10
                    Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

                    The journey does have value in and of itself. But winning a championship exponentially makes the journey sooooooooooooo much sweeter.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

                      Originally posted by Twes View Post
                      The journey does have value in and of itself. But winning a championship exponentially makes the journey sooooooooooooo much sweeter.
                      Yep. Robert Louis Stevenson said, "To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive."

                      He was wrong.
                      And I won't be here to see the day
                      It all dries up and blows away
                      I'd hang around just to see
                      But they never had much use for me
                      In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

                        The championship is what gives the journey its meaning.

                        Without it, it's like an epic story without an ending.

                        My two favorite teams on earth are the Detroit Lions, and the Detroit Pistons. So I know what it's like to be on the polar opposite ends of the spectrum.

                        Without a doubt, the championship is the most important thing. Using the Lions as a reference point, time as a Pistons fan would have felt so much more empty without that 1989 championship.
                        Last edited by Kstat; 05-19-2008, 09:45 AM.

                        It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                        Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                        Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                        NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

                          To me it's all about a championship. Yes, the 1990's up until 2000 were very fun times to watch the Pacers, but they ended in failure ultimately because we didn't win it all.

                          But, as Will Galen said, entertainment value is very important as well. I remember the playoff runs from the 1990's much better than I do the ones from the 2000's, because the teams in the 1990's were much more entertaining for me. The 2004 team was great, but I was never a fan of Carlisle's style of play, JO, or Artest. Now, if we had actually won it all in 2004, things may be different, but it's really hard to say.

                          But yeah, in my view, the season is basically a failure if you don't win it all. No owner is going to sign a guy to a max deal without a championship in mind.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

                            A championship is not the only thing, but it is far and away the most important thing.

                            I don't know how I'd feel about being the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, for instance, and have essentially a horrible, horrible history of fanship followed by four good years and one title only to fall back into obscurity (presuming they're going to be bad for another 10-12 years).

                            Then again, I'd probably take it. And since we've been as consistently above average as any team in basketball since 1990, that's not even an issue aside from the hypothetical.

                            So yeah, at this point, a title is pretty much the end-all, be-all for this franchise seeing as we've done everything else you can do.

                            And if Reggie had ever won one, he'd leap from being a Pacer immortal to an Indiana god. His whole schtick was being the uber-underdog who was 5-foot-nothing, 100-and-nothing without a shred of athletic ability and still able to do magical things on the court. If he would have been able to pull off a championship in that style, it would have been a historic David and Goliath tale (and yes, obviously he could only have gotten one with the help of some of Jalen, Mark, Davis, Davis, Rik, Mully, Byron, McKey, et al).
                            Read my Pacers blog:
                            8points9seconds.com

                            Follow my twitter:

                            @8pts9secs

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                            • #15
                              Re: How important is a championship to you, as a fan?

                              Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                              The championship is what gives the journey its meaning.

                              Without it, it's like an epic story without an ending.

                              My two favorite teams on earth are the Detroit Lions, and the Detroit Pistons. So I know what it's like to be on the polar opposite ends of the spectrum.

                              Without a doubt, the championship is the most important thing. Using the Lions as a reference point, time as a Pistons fan would have felt so much more empty without that 1989 championship.
                              I agree completely with everything you say here, but, again, ask, are you going to stop being a Lions fan any time soon?

                              My earlier way of putting it was a little disingenuous. I guess, as a Pacer fan, there's no way that anyone could ever convince me, with absolute certainty, that the Pacers would never win a championship.

                              I would always hold that hope.

                              However, I also may be assigning some motivations to the OP that might not be there. When I hear the discussion about "winning a championship", it tends to be, on this board and RealGM, in the context of the Pacers being content with making the playoffs and not really seeking a championship. This is one of the main arguments of those who believe that the team should hit bottom, tank, before they can win a championship. That the only way to get a title is through the next Superstar.

                              I don't for one second believe that the Pacers organization "settled" in the '90's. In fact, I think the Pacers organization is in the state that it's currently in because they took a huge risk with Ron Artest because Artest (at his peak) was the type of player who made this team a serious championship contender. Had we made the Peja deal prior to the brawl and self-immolation, we would have been a more consistently good team, but we would not have been that grind-it-out nasty team in 2003-2004, or the team that was just dominating Detroit on the night of the brawl.

                              They went all in, and we got beat. I can live with what happened because, in my mind, it was an acceptable risk.

                              However, I don't believe that tanking is an acceptable risk. It is too long term, and relies on too many if's. People talk about needing top 5 picks to have a shot. Here's a history of the NBA Top 5 picks (I think it's all of them, but I may have missed somebody) that have played for the Pacers:

                              Drafted by Pacers - Rick Robey (#3), Steve Stipanovich (#2), Wayman Tisdale (#2), Chuck Person (#4), Rik Smits (#2), and Jonathan Bender (#5).

                              Drafted by Others, played for Pacers later - Bill Garnett (#4), Sam Perkins (#4), Byron Scott (#4), Reggie Williams (#4), Mike Dunleavy, Jr. (#3)

                              Of 11 players, that's four bona fide busts (Robey, Bender, Garnett, Williams), two arguable busts (Stipo & Wayman), three solid pro's (Chuck, Rik, Junior), and two excellent pros (Perkins, Scott), but no superstars. No difference makers.

                              So, I get leery when I get asked "How important is a championship to you?". It is of paramount importance, but no fan should be considered a chump if they cheered for the team they loved and that team made good faith efforts to win a title but came up short...either through luck or bad timing.

                              If that 1998 Pacer team had peaked just one year later, would there have been a banner in Conseco? What if they hadn't called continuation on that Larry Johson 3 in 1999? What if Travis had hit the jumper at the end of regulation in Game 4 in 2000? What if Reggie had hit his 3 at the end of OT in the same game? What if they don't call Dale for that mystery loose ball foul in Game 6 2000? If Jordan had stayed retired, would the Pacers have multiple banners hanging? If Jordan hadn't retired, would we be talking about Hakeem as the greatest player without a title?

                              As long as the Pacers lack an NBA title, there will be something missing from our experience. But, does that mean it's a completely empty/meaningless experience? I can't and won't accept that.
                              Last edited by count55; 05-19-2008, 10:48 AM. Reason: spelling

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