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Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

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  • #16
    Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

    When you're at a size disadvantage doing things like boxing out will minimize some of the disadvantages. ...Of course even if you are at a size advantage, boxing out will put the other team at even more of a disadvantage (cough cough did you read that JO?).

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    • #17
      Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

      This is going to be the umpteenth time I've posted it, but I don't get the big stink about boxing out, or lack there of.

      John Wooden didn't teach his teams to box out, and he's considered one of, if not the, greatest coaches of all time. He taught that all 5 players should go after the ball, and not retreat to find a man, and essentially going the opposite direction as the ball.

      JO's lack of boxing out might, or the whole team's, might not be the lack of talent/desire/ability/knowledge to do so. It could be JOB's coaching philosophy. It could be that JO feels like he's better just going after the ball.

      One thing is definately for sure. Foster doesn't box out, and I've yet read someone *****ing about him not rebounding enough.

      I don't particularly like JO as a player, but sometimes it feels like people will use a player's shoe size as a way to talk negatively about them.
      Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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      • #18
        Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

        If that's what Wooden truly believed, then to that I can only say "Nobody's perfect". If everyone boxes out someone, then they all have less distance to travel to get the ball, and they have a straight(er) line to travel to get to the ball. It's pretty simple to me. Jumping and the timing of your jump is important to rebounding, obviously, but the point is boxing out makes rebounding easier on you and harder on your opponent.

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        • #19
          Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

          Originally posted by Mal View Post
          If that's what Wooden truly believed, then to that I can only say "Nobody's perfect". If everyone boxes out someone, then they all have less distance to travel to get the ball, and they have a straight(er) line to travel to get to the ball. It's pretty simple to me. Jumping and the timing of your jump is important to rebounding, obviously, but the point is boxing out makes rebounding easier on you and harder on your opponent.
          Amen, it is also much more satisfying to see one of your players put a hard check on someone, throwing them completely out of the picture, and jumping up for a hard two-handed board and just crushing the rock upon contact. Mean, physical rebounds get my rocks off..i'm sorry to go there but how a player rebounds says a lot about his on court demeanor and desire to WIN.
          Roy Hibbert.... It's the POWER!!!

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          • #20
            Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

            I think Wooden wanted his players to put a body on a man, box him out, and then go get the ball. Until I see something disputing that I will stick to my belief. I think what Since 86 is saying, but confusing with not boxing out at all, is that Wooden didn't want his players neglecting the ball once they'd boxed their man out and protected an area. But I don't think Since 86 is correct that Wooden didn't want his players to box out at all.

            But... I've not really heard/read Wooden's actual comments on the subject so I could well be wrong. Surely, someone here could post some actual Wooden comments to shed some light on this.

            -Bball
            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

            ------

            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

            -John Wooden

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              So now we move onto this game with the Warriors and I just want to ask one question for all of those who are advocating our newest and latest lineup change.

              What the h@ll are we doing?

              No, really, what are we doing?

              Is this a long term plan where this is how we will play for the next 5 years? Is this a stop gap measure just to stop the losing? Are we trying to develop the young players?

              A show of hands, who actually thinks this will be the way to win in the east in a playoff series?

              Ok, if this is not about winning in the playoffs what is it about?

              Look, I'm fine with any of the above answers I guess. But I just want to know what the plan is.
              Peck, I'm right there with you. This has been my problem since the trade last year. What the heck are we trying to accomplish?

              I meant to post this in the "Why I'm losing interest" thread, but you said it way better than I was going to.
              This space for rent.

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              • #22
                Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                Peck,

                First off, I would encourage you to read the thread, "Let's Get Back to Looking at Some Positives...", not because I wrote it, but because I think you'll find some of your answers there.

                Second, I agree that Foster should have seen some playing time last night (1/13/08) against the Warriors especially when they had their reserves on the floor (less Ellis, of course; he was a beast last night!), but I can understand why JOB didn't go that route. Foster doesn't poss as much of a scoring threat as Murphy. Granted, Murphy didn't do so hot himself last night, but can you imagine defenders shagging off Foster and doubling our only other hot hands on the night, Dunleavy and Quis, when JO wasn't on the floor? Against a quick team like the Warriors, unless you can find the right combination out there to pair Foster against where his lack of offensive firepower won't be such a liability, you're better off leaving him on the bench for the most part. Still, I'd liked to have seen Foster get some playing time at least in the 3Q when the Pacers could have used a few more 2nd shot opportunities.

                The only explanation I can give you about Tinsley is he was in one of his pouting modes again. I noticed before the game when the Pacers where in their huddle how Tinsley was the only player NOT paying attention or looking inward toward the huddle. It wasn't like something else had his attention. It was as if he just didn't really want to be part of it. I had a sense then that something would go wrong during that game, and sure enough...he pulled a hockey move out of his *rse! I know this, if I were JOB I'd sit him down every time he pulls a stunt like that. In fact, I wouldn't play him in end-game situations (that final 3 minutes) unless I had to. I know the flagrant foul wasn't committed during the final 3-minutes, but it's his overall attitude that seems to cause him to loss it that's hurting him and the team right now. Besides, Tinsley's end-game decision making hasn't been the best of late. I'm just not sure he can handle the end-game "go-to-guy" pressure in the clutch or be counted on to make sound decision near the end of games to get this team clear through to the win. Sometimes, it's the little things that mean a lot, and he's just not doing those little things when it's crucial that they matter most of all.

                I agree somewhat on your view on Ike. He's not the same player we saw emerging before his injury. He's regressed in the worse way. Maybe by JOB keeping him out of the lineup he'll get to watch and learn and get some practise time in because w/o another strong big to hold down the interior while JO is rotated out, this "1-4" lineup will have flashes of success, but won't BE as successful as it could be. Of the remaining bigs - Murphy, Foster, Ike, Harrison - only Ike has the ability to be that 8-10 ppg front-court player. Murphy doesn't like playing underneath the basket. Foster can only give you "gimme putbacks". So, unless they aren't there, he's not going to score much. Harrison is more likely to foul out that put points on the board. That leaves Ike, but his decision making is slow, and he tries too hard to power through defenders rather than making a power move to create space for himself, and he goes straight up with the ball instead of using some of that athleticism he has. This team needs to take a lesson from the Rockets and Lakers and hire a Big Man coach bad!!

                I think JOB is going in the right direction with this lineup. As UB mentioned, the Pacers have looked better since going to it. Their defensive rotations are better, their shot selection has been better and they've begun to attack the basket more. If the Pacers can get that one forceful low-post player to spare JO, this lineup could work because only one other team in the East is using it - the Magic! - and until recently, they had some pretty good success with it. But like the Pacers, they're missing that one "big" to spare Dwight Howard, as well.
                Last edited by NuffSaid; 01-14-2008, 07:21 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                  Phoenix does pretty well with small ball. They have not won a title with it, but you can't make EVERY move you make based on answering that question when you are not even good yet. Besides, who's to say they can't win a title or couldn't previously have one a title with that setup? I know they didn't and haven't, but it wasn't a situation of "why did they bother? There was no chance they would win."

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                  • #24
                    Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                    Since no one has brought this up yet, I'm gonna just come out and say it......I don't think that Small Ball is going to work based off of the way this team is built.

                    A big part of it is that this feels more like a "Hey, this small lineup seemed to work against the Suns, we should do this all the time" knee-jerk coaching reaction then a well thought out plan.

                    I don't have to play a few more games of Small Ball to know that any team that plays us is simply going to attack the basket everytime ( A ) JONeal is the last player to make it back to the other end of the court ( cuz he tried to grab an offensive rebound and is still trailing ) or ( B ) whenever Murphy is on the court. This is what the Warriors did last night especially when JONeal started getting tired.

                    The only way that I can remotely tolerate the idea of Small ball with the current roster is to have Murphy and Foster play at the same time so that it AT LEAST looks like we have a decent chance of defending ( or more specifically clogging up ) the paint. As some have suggested before....Murphy and Foster seem to compliment each other well....I think that we should take advantage of that.

                    On top of that...JONeal averaged 36 minutes as the Center over the last 2 games when Murphy averaged only 14 minutes. I am guessing that a BIG REASON for this was because Murphy wasn''t cutting it on the defensive end ( which really isn't a surprise ). Without adding Foster to the mix....does anyone else think that JONeal can continue to keep this pace when we face teams that actually has 2 real FrontCourt players?

                    Even with JONeal doing very well against a Frontcourt lineup where he was the Biggest Frontcourt player on the court, unless we play the Warriors and Suns for the rest of the season....I just don't think that JONeal is in the condition to do what we need him to do as the only true Big Man on the court for 30+ minutes a game.
                    Last edited by CableKC; 01-14-2008, 09:20 PM.
                    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                      Look, a big reason why I've always defended Rick was because I felt like he made choices meant to reduce risk and hide weak spots. People may hate the slower pace that results in, people may find his underspoken demeanor boring, but to me the reason the team ended up playing the style they did was because it gave them the best possible chance to win.

                      I don't think JOB is dumb anymore than Rick was. I think JOB is finding his way into this roster. Perhaps he was naive coming into the job, but as he gets results and deals with these guys long term he's probably going to push closer to what Rick did. Sure it will still be with his style to it, but ultimately he's facing the same limitations Rick did.

                      The roster is a mess, that's why the coaches have struggled with it. People ripped on Rick for putting Tins in the doghouse or "playing favorites", but now we see JOB doing the exact same thing. Is that pure chance or does it indicate something about the roster?


                      What this means is that I'm partially with Peck and partially with Will. There is a method to this, but at the same time it's a bit like flying a plane that just lost a wing. You try lots of things to make it work but in the end that sucker is just going to crash.

                      I wasn't talking smack when I said that if JOB got them to 44 wins or whatever it was that I'd carry the JOB for COY sign around the circle. It was because for this team to do that it would mean he had pulled it off, he had made this roster work. I stand by that, IF he does it it will be very impressive.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                        Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                        I wasn't talking smack when I said that if JOB got them to 44 wins or whatever it was that I'd carry the JOB for COY sign around the circle.
                        I think I predicted something like 32 wins for the year. We're actually above my expectations right now.

                        But the reason you allow 32 wins this year is because you'll be a lot better next year. So what are we doing to get better next year?
                        This space for rent.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                          Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                          This is going to be the umpteenth time I've posted it, but I don't get the big stink about boxing out, or lack there of.

                          John Wooden didn't teach his teams to box out, and he's considered one of, if not the, greatest coaches of all time. He taught that all 5 players should go after the ball, and not retreat to find a man, and essentially going the opposite direction as the ball.

                          JO's lack of boxing out might, or the whole team's, might not be the lack of talent/desire/ability/knowledge to do so. It could be JOB's coaching philosophy. It could be that JO feels like he's better just going after the ball.

                          One thing is definately for sure. Foster doesn't box out, and I've yet read someone *****ing about him not rebounding enough.

                          I don't particularly like JO as a player, but sometimes it feels like people will use a player's shoe size as a way to talk negatively about them.
                          Early on in his career the word on JO was that he didn't have the fundamentals to rebound and that he merely used his athleticism to jump over people grab the rebound before they got to it. Now that his hops are weakening I'm still not so sure that he doesn't rely more on brute strength than positioning. I'm going to pay a bit more attention to this.
                          Ah carp...how many in the NBA really boxout anyway? Most just occupy a space on the floor and then fight for the ball...there could probably be 3 fouls called on every rebound.
                          Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                            You know what I'd try?

                            We got all those big leads with two bigs, but we keep blowing them with the same lineup. How about when we get the big lead and teams start cutting into it, then go small ball.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                              Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                              This is going to be the umpteenth time I've posted it, but I don't get the big stink about boxing out, or lack there of.

                              John Wooden didn't teach his teams to box out, and he's considered one of, if not the, greatest coaches of all time. He taught that all 5 players should go after the ball, and not retreat to find a man, and essentially going the opposite direction as the ball.
                              I won't believe this until you quote it from somewhere. I've asked before and gotten no response.

                              My Dad played for John Wooden, I've been to his house. And I've never heard anything growing up except how important it is to box out.

                              I'm not saying it's impossible for me to be wrong. But I'll need some documentation.
                              "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                              • #30
                                Re: Odd thoughts to wrap up the road trip.

                                Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                                Look, a big reason why I've always defended Rick was because I felt like he made choices meant to reduce risk and hide weak spots. People may hate the slower pace that results in, people may find his underspoken demeanor boring, but to me the reason the team ended up playing the style they did was because it gave them the best possible chance to win.

                                I don't think JOB is dumb anymore than Rick was. I think JOB is finding his way into this roster. Perhaps he was naive coming into the job, but as he gets results and deals with these guys long term he's probably going to push closer to what Rick did. Sure it will still be with his style to it, but ultimately he's facing the same limitations Rick did.

                                The roster is a mess, that's why the coaches have struggled with it. People ripped on Rick for putting Tins in the doghouse or "playing favorites", but now we see JOB doing the exact same thing. Is that pure chance or does it indicate something about the roster?


                                What this means is that I'm partially with Peck and partially with Will. There is a method to this, but at the same time it's a bit like flying a plane that just lost a wing. You try lots of things to make it work but in the end that sucker is just going to crash.

                                I wasn't talking smack when I said that if JOB got them to 44 wins or whatever it was that I'd carry the JOB for COY sign around the circle. It was because for this team to do that it would mean he had pulled it off, he had made this roster work. I stand by that, IF he does it it will be very impressive.
                                I agree with you that RC's style initially suited the roster he had to work with, but even you have to admit that when that roster began to change RC's coaching style did not.

                                Example, while the Pacers still had JO and Foster as their only legit Bigs, RC continued to push the inside/outside game. By that time, the team had lost Artest, Al and Crosher. In return, they got Murphy and Ike, and had Harrison as a "up and coming Center"......and yet RC still pushed the inside/outside game. Granted, JO and Foster were still here, but I seriously doubt anyone would have believed that any combination of JO and any other Big on this roster post-Artest would have been as formidable as JO/Artest!! When you're able to get nearly 40 ppg from two of your front-court starters...'Nuff Said, but I'll elaborate anyway just so every understands where I'm coming from.

                                The Pacers had lost both Jones Boys, Reggie and SJax, and got Peja on a six month loan......threw away James White before the season inwhich he was drafted even began, and got Dunleavy, Ike and Murphy - a PF who would rather play like a SG - and a few other up and coming players through the draft and/or trades.

                                Do you see where I'm going with this? The makeup of the team slowly began to change, but RC continued to push his style of play on the roster. Granted, some of those changes occured during the course of a season, but many of them occured during the off-season which should have given him time to make the adjustments necessary to find an offense that truly fit the roster he had. But he didn't. That's why I said during the summer of '06 that the only way you bring RC back was if he got players who truly fit his coaching style.

                                In reality, no matter what position one may have wanted to "plug" players into, the '06-07 Pacers had 7-Guards (Tinsley, Armstrong, McLeod, Daniels, Green, Dunleavy, and Marshall), 5 Forwarded (Baston, Willliams, Murphy, Granger and Ike), and 3 Centers (JO, Foster and Harrison). The only way a true inside/outside scheme works is if you have good shooters and a helluva dominate interior presence.

                                JO and Artest gave the Pacers that dominante interior presence in '04-05. That's why they could afford to get away with not having another dominate Center to spar JO. You just plugged Crosher out there w/Foster and left Artest on the floor and you still had a rebounder, and shooter (w/Reggie sometimes) and a interior presence in Artest. That all began to change w/the Brawl, and the Pacers have never been able to acquire a "manageable" roster ever since. By "manageable", I'm referring to TPTB being able to move away from "damage control...patch-work mode w/the roster" to truly bringing in the types of players they want to play the brand of basketball they (including the coach) envision. That's still going to take another year or two, but they'll get there. In the meanwhile, JOB has to find those players on today's roster who fit his style of basketball. I think he's one player away from doing that.

                                IMO, the Pacers need another low-post player who can spare JO and give them 8-10 ppg and play some defense. I had hoped Ike or Harrison would be able to do that, but it's beginning to look as if both are a wash. If TPTB can acquire that player by the trade deadline w/o losing any of (who I believe are) the core players (1-8, but not necessarily in that order: JO, Granger, Dunleavy, Rush, Deiner, Williams, Quis, and dare I say it...Tinsley), I think this small-ball lineup of JOB's could very well work indeed.

                                Sidenote: I liked RC. I thought he was a very good coach, but he he was burned out and IMO had lost the team long before the end of last season. All the Artest/Brawl drama and then the injuries, etc., etc. It's alot to ask of anyone man to endure. If he ever returns to coaching in the NBA, I'd wish him well.
                                Last edited by NuffSaid; 01-15-2008, 05:20 PM.

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