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Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

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  • Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

    Let me see how does that go again? Never get to up after a win and never get to down after a loss.....

    Well what do you do when you haven't won in awhile and the losing has been, how to put this politely, decisive.

    People I watched every single solitary brutal moment of this game and all I can say is "I don't have a clue".

    Is it offense? Is it defense? Is the the system? Is it the players? Is it coaching?

    My answer to all of the above is yes. However right now I don't know of one true thing to do to change any of that.

    Also for those of you that are voting to blow it up, and believe me if you would have asked me that 9 min. into the third quarter I would have provided you the match, I want to ask you this.

    Blow it up and do what?

    Look I make no seceret to this I have wanted Jermaine O'Neal traded for years. However I am now seeing trades suggested on here that even I am cringing at.

    Cap room mean nothing & I mean nothing if you can't attract free agents to come here.

    Well here is the news on that, young big name free agents are not going to be lining up to play for a team that they consider has zero chance of winning in the very near future.

    Yes, you can use the money to pay some of your players down the road. But even then I have to wonder if we really should.

    Right now does anybody really want to invest big money in Ike? I know Shawn has a lot of fans but in truth as of now does he deserve a long term extension? I realize that both of them are far more deserveing the Jon Bender who got his deal with far less on floor production, but aren't we trying to avoid that again?

    By no means am I on here trying to say "stay the course" but I just want everybody who wants to ship J.O. off for two stiffs with expiring contracts to actually think this through. Now throw in a high unprotected draft pick and we can talk.

    Or if somebody wants to tell me that just getting rid of J.O. will benefit the team I am willing to hear them out. But to do it purely for money? No thanks.

    I don't pay to see dollar bills run up and down the floor and the Pacers have zero track record of being able to attract free agents.

    As I stated in the "we need a trade" thread that Shade put up, this season is a transitional season. Sadly, and believe me I hate this more than most of you, it probably for management is a season where they just want to make the playoffs.

    Look I would just prefer to not make the playoffs as opposed to get in the first round, lose in the first round and none of the young players play big roles.

    But I know that to the Pacers management this is the gold standard and frankly they have reason to beleive this for financial reasons. Remember they get to share in that playoff money if they get in.

    I guess where I really want to go with all of this is this. There is no "one sure way to win a title" in the NBA.

    If anything the one sure way you could argue is you have to have one of the 4 best players in the league. Only Detroit really hasn't had that over the past 20 some years.

    But even then it's not a sure fire thing.

    While Ainge is rightfully getting credit for his moves and it makes his past moves look good, never forget this one thing. If Kevin Garnett was not disgruntled with the Wolves and the Wolves weren't ready to be out of that contract Danny would still be sitting on the same team that is falling apart now up north. Oh he may have added Ray Allen but really would that have mattered?

    In other words loading up on draft picks is not a sure fire way to win either, if that were the case the Clippers, Bucks & Hawks would have won titles already.

    I think the thing that dissapoints me the most right now is that I think we are seeing regression on the offensive end. I feel like right now we are only ever in a game if we are hitting our jumpers and as anybody knows jump shots are not going to go in even half of the time.

    Now if this is coaching or players I am not sure. I don't feel like we are seeing the movement on offense or even the helping with picks and screens on offense like we saw earlier this year.

    Jamaal being out obviously hurt that, but I think I started to see that before he left.

    On defense I have no idea what we are doing? Look I understand the attempts at trying to draw charges but right now I think we are trying to do that a little to often instead of actually trying do defend the man.

    Troy Murphy is a soft defender, there is no arugment about that, however I can't say that any of our starting five are worth a d@mn really on the defensive end. Jermaine is what he always has been, Jamaal gambles more than Art Schlichter, Mike is just blah on defense and Danny is about average for his position.

    Foster off of the bench is above average, however unlike everybody else who fawns over him I still point out that his ineptness on the offensive end is no better than Troy's ineptness on the defensive end.

    Quis is avg., Kareem is better than I thought he would be but still just avg. at best, Owens for a person who is supposed to be the third string p.g. is actually acceptable, Ike doesn't even try, Harrison is well... hell I don't know. Sometimes he shows that there is the devine spark of life in his eyes and other times he proves that he is nothing more than one of the backup zombie dancers in Michael Jacksons thriller video. Williams I have no real clue on. Diener and Graham are non-factors.

    In other words we have a lousy defensive team. But even saying that I will still not contend that defense is our sole problem.

    You can NOT go min. after min. in this league without scoring a basket and right now we often have 4-5 min. a quarter where we don't get a field goal and don't get to the line.

    Some of it is stupid turnovers, no doubt. However some of it is purely bad shooting and some of it frankly is poor coaching.

    Look by no means am I turning on JOB, but right now I don't see any real offense at work here. Sometimes I see what looks like a set play or even crisp ball movement that leads to a good play. But those times are coming fewer and fewer each game.

    Sorry gang this really isn't one of my better posts but to be honest with you I am just flabbergasted by how we are losing.

    I guess I could take this a little more if we were playing Ike, Danny & Shawn a lot more because at least then I would feel like we were trying to see what we had.

    But I question in games like this why J.O., Troy and Jeff play so much.

    I'm sure we'll just beat the h@ll out of the Suns tonight.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

    [quote=Peck]

    By no means am I on here trying to say "stay the course"

    Bird has said he won't make a move unless it improves us. He's also said he doesn't believe in tearing a team down and starting from scratch. So, unless we can find a trade that improves us, staying the course is just what we will do. It's also what we should expect. There were only three trades at the deadline last year.

    Myself, I don't want to make a trade unless we get a first rounder in it. As I said in another thread, unless it's a no brainer, a trade won't help us. What we need more than anything is a guy that can finish and defend the perimeter. We're not going to find that in a trade, only in the draft.


    I'm sure we'll just beat the h@ll out of the Suns tonight.

    I think it will be another double digit loss, but what's ironic about it is it wouldn't surprise me if we beat the Suns. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Suns doubled the score on us, something I thought possible last night when Utah has us down 50-22.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 01-09-2008, 06:35 AM.

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    • #3
      Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

      What purpose is there in keeping JO assuming we could find someone to take him? Is he a player that can take over and dominate a game? Does he put a team on his back and will them to victory? Or is he just another VERY expensive piece of a broken wheel? I asked some time last week if this team had growth potential to it...IOW if left alone would this team grow and mature as the Smits/Miller/Jackson/Davis team did? If not then why hang on to him...it is obvious the crowds aren't coming out to see him play like they would a LeBron. I know that none of this sounds fair but he is a very very expensive part and we're going nowhere with or without him So I ask again, what is the purpose of keeping him? Hang on to him for a couple more years so his massive contract comes off the books then? What good is that? We are so far over the cap that his departure would still not allow us space to go after a top tier player.
      Perhaps some will say that the pieces are in place and all we need is that one player that makes it all click. If so, then WTH do we do to get that player because in all likelihood 3/4 of the teams in the NBA would like to have the same guy and most have more to offer to obtain him.

      As to making the POs this year...attendence is down so far that the PO money will only slow the bleeding. PO money on top of decent attendence is a big plus, but this year it is putting a band-aid on an evisceration.

      Nope, IMO it is necessary to do whatever needed to bring the fans back to the gym and build for the future. I believe the fans are shouting that they do not like this team and will not support it (what was attendence like during the recent win streak???) and if mgmnt wants butts in the seats it will take more than just winning to get them back. Rightly or wrongly the Colts are winning but also have a poster boy that everybody loves. They sell out. The Pacers are not winning and like it or not, the populace hates this team...or many of the players.
      Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

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      • #4
        Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

        Originally posted by Peck View Post
        Blow it up and do what?
        Start over. Clear the 6+ years of crap the franchise has been through, erase all memories of the brawl and any past troubles with the law. Get rid of J.O. and Tinsley. Try and get rid of Murphy's contract. Hang on to Danny and Shawne. Then bring in the best talent you can acquire, and try to make sure they're not future criminals.

        The Pacers have drafted very well under Bird, that's the most important thing for a rebuilding team. Just one top-10 pick could easily land us our next franchise guy for the next decade, and he, along with Danny and hopefully Shawne, can have us back on our way to relevancy once again.

        Basically, follow Portland's lead. Of course it's easier said than done, but it's very doable if you have a plan in place and follow through with it.
        Last edited by Kofi; 01-09-2008, 08:51 AM.

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        • #5
          Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

          I thought this was the offense everyone wanted, ball movement, player movement, quick shots, a lot of threes - no set plays, and most of all the last thing we ever wanted again was a coach that called all the plays. Afterall wasn't the argument that because every team knew our offensive plays, we needed to go to a passing game/triangle type of offense, where players read and react to the defense.

          That is exactly what the Pacers are trying to run.


          Things are never as bad as they seem, and never as good as they appear. I'm not ready to give up on this years team, I think they are still getting used to the new system. (Peck, I wonder what you were saying in 1994 when the Pacers were 17-24 - don't get me wrong I wasn't expecting a huge turn around then - there were signs however but with this years team - I don't see those signs of a turn around. But I only bring up 1994 to suggest it does take time to turn things around under a new coach.

          Tonight in Phoenix will be very ugly, but then they have two days without games and I expect them to play very well in Sacramento.

          I do want to say one thing about Jeff Foster. With a player like him, you cannot just say that he is bad on offense, and then say Troy is just as bad on defense - so it is a wash. That is completely discounting the impact Jeff's effort, hustle, energy, enthusism, and leadership has on his teammates. You really cannot measure his true value - but I think it is rather obvious when he's on the floor the Pacers play with more energy - there is a certain spark.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

            Doesn't Jeff's offensive rebounding count as offense? How many extra possessions has he gotten us? And most of his offensive rebounds aren't just rebounds of his own misses or to himself for a lay-up he'll miss.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

              Originally posted by rexnom View Post
              Doesn't Jeff's offensive rebounding count as offense? How many extra possessions has he gotten us? And most of his offensive rebounds aren't just rebounds of his own misses or to himself for a lay-up he'll miss.
              The rebounds of his missed shots are more than made up for by the number of tips he gets that allows his teammates to get the offensive rebound.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

                Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                I thought this was the offense everyone wanted, ball movement, player movement, quick shots, a lot of threes - no set plays, and most of all the last thing we ever wanted again was a coach that called all the plays. Afterall wasn't the argument that because every team knew our offensive plays, we needed to go to a passing game/triangle type of offense, where players read and react to the defense.

                That is exactly what the Pacers are trying to run.


                Things are never as bad as they seem, and never as good as they appear. I'm not ready to give up on this years team, I think they are still getting used to the new system. (Peck, I wonder what you were saying in 1994 when the Pacers were 17-24 - don't get me wrong I wasn't expecting a huge turn around then - there were signs however but with this years team - I don't see those signs of a turn around. But I only bring up 1994 to suggest it does take time to turn things around under a new coach.

                Tonight in Phoenix will be very ugly, but then they have two days without games and I expect them to play very well in Sacramento.

                I do want to say one thing about Jeff Foster. With a player like him, you cannot just say that he is bad on offense, and then say Troy is just as bad on defense - so it is a wash. That is completely discounting the impact Jeff's effort, hustle, energy, enthusism, and leadership has on his teammates. You really cannot measure his true value - but I think it is rather obvious when he's on the floor the Pacers play with more energy - there is a certain spark.
                I want a lot of ball and player movement... true. I'm not one for a lot of 3's though. I also only want quick shots when they are there... which isn't often. If you can beat the defense, great... but taking a quick shot when the rest of the team isn't setup at all isn't exactly my cup of tea.

                I don't like momentum killing, bad decision, quick shots.

                As I said in my other post, our offense is looking dull and indecisive. Where are the solid screens? Where are the sharp cuts? Where is the crisp ball movement? Where are the smart decisions?

                BUT... even if the offense was a well-oiled machine, the defense is lacking, lacking, lacking... We need to do something to pick it up. Are we THAT slow that we can't keep up with the other team's ball movement and the rotations? Are the wings just too ineffective? Do we lack that one bulldog on defense that inspires the others to bring up their level of play?

                Watching possession after possession of a Pacer frantically running to try and catch back up with the open man as he takes an uncontested shot is telling. Team defense is nice, but maybe it is overrated when you look at the individual needs. Usually, the Pacer player is so late closing out that he might as well stay under the basket and block out in hopes that the shot will miss and at least we'll have a shot at the board. At least that way he wouldn't foul the guy after the shot and put him on the line for the "and 1...".

                I realize we're trying to take away the inside, but either we're doing it to a fault or else we're a very lacking team on the defensive end (either athletically or mentally... or both).

                -Bball
                Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                ------

                "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

                -John Wooden

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

                  Originally posted by Bball
                  taking a quick shot when the rest of the team isn't setup at all isn't exactly my cup of tea.

                  The Pacers most efficient scoring this season is on quick shots. 82games.com shows the Pacers effective scoring per attempt is highest on the shots that come early in the clock.

                  clock eFG%
                  00-10 .529
                  11-15 .451
                  16-20 .490
                  21-24 .402


                  I also note than, even in the last 10 games, when the Pacers are 2-8, the Pacers outscore their opponent on fast breaks half the time.

                  So, may I suggest that the Pacers KEEP the emphasis on running, and strive to do that better. It is one thing that doesn't need fixing. They ALSO need to get smarter about recognizing an opportunity for a quickie versus a wasted shot. That does need fixing, and it shows up in the big dip between 11 and 15 seconds. Those are the dumb jumpers that need to stop.

                  Originally posted by UncleBuck
                  I thought . . . everyone wanted . . . ball movement, player movement, quick shots, a lot of threes - no set plays, and most of all the last thing we ever wanted again was a coach that called all the plays. Afterall wasn't the argument that because every team knew our offensive plays, we needed to go to a passing game/triangle type of offense, where players read and react to the defense.
                  I don't know about everyone. It's what I wanted, and still do.




                  http://www.82games.com/0708/0708IND3.HTM
                  Last edited by Putnam; 01-09-2008, 01:58 PM.
                  And I won't be here to see the day
                  It all dries up and blows away
                  I'd hang around just to see
                  But they never had much use for me
                  In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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                  • #10
                    Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

                    Originally posted by Bball View Post
                    I want a lot of ball and player movement... true. I'm not one for a lot of 3's though. I also only want quick shots when they are there... which isn't often. If you can beat the defense, great... but taking a quick shot when the rest of the team isn't setup at all isn't exactly my cup of tea.

                    I don't like momentum killing, bad decision, quick shots.



                    BUT... even if the offense was a well-oiled machine, the defense is lacking, lacking, lacking... We need to do something to pick it up. Are we THAT slow that we can't keep up with the other team's ball movement and the rotations? Are the wings just too ineffective? Do we lack that one bulldog on defense that inspires the others to bring up their level of play?


                    I realize we're trying to take away the inside, but either we're doing it to a fault or else we're a very lacking team on the defensive end (either athletically or mentally... or both).
                    I agree with all of the above. The defensive scheme is set up to take away the inside but because the rotations are so poor, it doesn't work. They end up giving up a lot of wide open jumpers to teams that are willing rotate the ball or drive and kick the ball out to the perimeter.

                    I also have noticed that the defense gambles a lot on the perimeter which leads to a breakdown of the "D", which often leads to fouls or another easy shot in the lane.

                    I think coaching is to blame in a lot of these instances. The team is capable of pulling it off because they had a decent stretch of games when they defended well. However, I think since Foster started playing less minutes and was pulled from the starting lineup, the defense has gone down hill. That falls on the coaching staff, IMO.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

                      I think we need to do our very best to ride these players into the playoffs for the money involved, the experience whomever's left after this summer will gain, and the fact that from a P.R. perspective I think it will help to have us in rather than out (especially having not made it last year). I also think as soon as mid-July hits you hit the market hard with blowing this team to hell. Take the short-term high of the playoffs to pump a little oxygen back in the franchise's lungs so it can live off of that air while we rebuild.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

                        Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                        I thought this was the offense everyone wanted, ball movement, player movement, quick shots, a lot of threes - no set plays, and most of all the last thing we ever wanted again was a coach that called all the plays. Afterall wasn't the argument that because every team knew our offensive plays, we needed to go to a passing game/triangle type of offense, where players read and react to the defense.

                        That is exactly what the Pacers are trying to run.
                        Come on, that's a cheap statement because you know very well that part of the problem is that there is NOT a lot of ball or player movement right now. No, running in a large circle around the outside of the paint, and passing it back and forth does not count. As for quick shots, personally I like them if it's an "in-rhythm" shot that's an honestly open look, especially off of a kick-out from the post or a driving player, but not when it's done just for the sake of shooting early (of which Tinsley and Murphy are quickly becoming masters).

                        Secondly, and this is a general statement not related to quoting UB, but if we're going to have an offense that treats anyone with an outside shot like their Reggie Miller (in regards to how enthusiastically they are encouraged to shoot the ball), why not set as many screens as you would for Reggie Miller? I mean it's not like this is a roster filled with shooters that can create their own shots/looks. Give Mike 2 or 3 screens along the baseline. Kareem too. Danny and Shawne.

                        I mean if what Jim said is true (and I have no reason to say he's making it up) that we hit over 50% of our open shots while making only like 18% of our contested shots, then why the hell wouldn't you set more screens for these guys? They can't create their own shots and they're usually slower than the guy on the other team. They NEED this as far as I can tell.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

                          Cap room mean nothing & I mean nothing if you can't attract free agents to come here.
                          I don't want them to get cap room, I want them to get salary RELIEF.

                          I don't buy into a big name signing, but I do think it would be nice if you could sign a KAPONO when you needed a 3pt ace rather than settling for Mark Price aka ball boy and Rush.

                          This team is toast for 3-4 years unless this current group recovers somehow. If what we've seen lately is where it's headed then blowing it up is what must be done. Tins/JO for Wally, fine. Stuff like that is just to clear out the roster, not to solve anything.

                          And isn't it ironic that I'm now saying "move JO" and Peck is saying "don't move him"? Try that 2 months ago.


                          Mal, some of what you say is true, but even back when things were "good" I noted on several nights that really the good offense was just a hot shooting night on the same old looks.

                          The Atlanta game, guys couldn't miss. I saw plenty of open shots vs Utah, it's not like there were hands in faces all the time.

                          Troy comes down on a trailer and gets a wide open look that he can even step into...clank. Dun or Danny spot up open for a catch and shoot...clank.

                          That ain't "contested shots", that's "need new talent".


                          What part of ANY of these player's history suggested that they would be over 40% from 3? That's many systems and many teammates worth of data too. In fact this is why I have been so complimentary of Dun, he was way above expectations this year.

                          But when you look at those preseason expectations the one constant among naysayers like me was "mismatch of system and talent". What was winning me over was a hint that lots of the talent had changed, but it's starting to look like as the season wears on and games pile up that guys are reverting to what they've always been.

                          Even Hulk was flipping out last night.
                          Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-09-2008, 12:33 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

                            Originally posted by Mal View Post
                            I think we need to do our very best to ride these players into the playoffs for the money involved, the experience whomever's left after this summer will gain, and the fact that from a P.R. perspective I think it will help to have us in rather than out (especially having not made it last year). I also think as soon as mid-July hits you hit the market hard with blowing this team to hell. Take the short-term high of the playoffs to pump a little oxygen back in the franchise's lungs so it can live off of that air while we rebuild.
                            Sounds great. My only concern with that line of thinking is that TPTB will consider making the playoffs this year as an improvement over last year. As a result, they'll decide to keep the team together and make a couple more Kareem Rush / Travis Diener/Andre Owens type free agent signings.

                            I really think it's going to take missing the playoffs for a second straight year for them to realize that there needs to be some changes. That said, I don't think the Pacers will miss the playoffs. This isn't a bad team; it's a mediocre .500 team that'll hit high points and low points throughout the season. Right now, we're in a trough. In a few weeks though, they'll play better and we'll start having better feelings again before they hit another trough.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd thoughts after being trounced by Utah

                              clock eFG%
                              00-10 .529
                              11-15 .451
                              16-20 .490
                              21-24 .402

                              Huge problem with this stat to prove this point. The first category includes all TO scores, and even slow-down teams look good on that number.

                              Pull out the 0-5 and see even what 6-10 on it's own looks like, and that still include baseline TO's and crazy rebounds that just take everyone longer to get down court. I mean 1 second? That's a steal at their rim, not a "quick shot in motion offense".

                              But then you have a contradiction. The true "early" clock, the one where you might not get to HC within 3-4 seconds and then spend 3-4 more with at least a few passes and end up into the 11-15 range which is quick shooting in terms of any level of HC set at all, the team isn't as good.

                              In fact they are better, acceptably so even, when they run a LONGER set, getting into the last stages of the clock.

                              And then obviously no one shoots well when they've only got 4 or less left, that's breakdown time, not what you meant to do.

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