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Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

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  • Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

    Well that was fun.

    Sadly unlike the game vs. the Heat where U.B. asked me if I thought we were going to win or lose I emphatically and without a doubt in my mind said win. Tonight Roaming Gnome asked me the same question with about 4 min. to go left in the game and without much hesitation I said lose.

    Winning builds is contageous and so is losing. Sadly we are into losing right now and it doesn't get any easier with the Celtics coming up on Tuesday.

    Obviously there are lots of things to cover but right off of the bat I am going to throw Bird/Walsh/O'Brien under the bus.

    I don't know who or why but the deep bench with several players playing significant min. has gone out the window.

    While we did go 11 deep tonight only one bench player played more than 20 min. and our point guard and power forward each played above 34 min. each.

    With the style of offense and defense O'Brien is going to try and run I do not see how this is going to work.

    Of course me being the anti-O'Neal person that I am, I am very fearful that we are back full swing in the Jermaine is a superstar and must get his min. mode.

    If that is the case then we have wasted everybodys time and fired Carlisle for no reason.

    For that matter I just cannot fathom how we can play Jamaal Tinsley this many min. a game.

    For the third game in a row I found myself praying for Jamaal to hit the bench only to once again remember the Diener was going to be coming in. However I didn't even get that last night, I got Marquis Daniels running the point and well frankly that was about a miserable failure as well.

    I have to really fault whoever in management made the decision that we did not need a strong backup for Jamaal. I really fault them for not saying we need a replacement for Jamaal but what's the point by now.

    Look I don't mean to offend the Jamaal fan club but after that fourth quarter if Jamaal Tinsley never played another min. on our team I would be happy.

    I don't care if he did almost have a triple double, the guy blew chunks in the fourth quarter. There was no offenseive direction from him at all and for whatever reason that only he knows he decided that it was time to channel Stephon Marburry and fling up whatever shot he could get his hands on.

    Sadly he can't shoot like Starburry can thus the 4th quarter we all witnessed.

    However, I don't blame Jamaal for this at all.

    There was a coach over on the sideline who had every opprotunity in the world to pull him and if nothing else set him down and say "hey, we need to do this and not this". But "play on" was all we got all night long.

    However, I can't even really blame the coaching staff for all of this either.

    I'm sure he looked down his bench and saw a player who was let go by the Magic and another player who played in the D league last season and figured "what the hell".

    As I've said over and over again, I understand the Diener and Rush signings. But what I don't get is the fact that we didn't make some move, any move to get a real quality backup point guard.

    Oh, for the record I still hate Allen Iverson with the passion of a white hot sun. I wish just once that a big man would actually hit Allen as hard as he acts like he gets hit everytime he goes down the lane.

    Sorry I had to get that one non-Pacers point in there, now I'm back on track.

    Look, let's be honest here. This season has never been about winning a title, so I wish we could just forget the whole "we must play Jermaine and Jamaal and be competative" non-sense and actually start to develop some of our other players for the next couple of years when maybe (with a whole lot of luck) we can be competative again.

    I'm not saying tank the season I'm just saying instead of almost 40 min. a game from the main two I'd really like to see more players getting more min. on the floor.

    I guess let's just hit them player by player from here.

    J.O. - Honestly I am not an objective observer here but I have to ask, can the guy not jump anymore? I know he has injury's and all but dang, really this much? I swear he looks like he is straining to even get up and dunk the ball. I think he has gone to the "draw the charge" mode because I am not sure he can get up there to block the shots anymore like he used to. He may be the oldest 30 year old player I've seen.

    Maybe he is just out of shape or maybe his knee still hurts but dang he can't seem to do anything off of the floor anymore.

    He did at least grab some boards and had a couple of nifty passes. I pray to God he hasn't had the team alter the offense to suite him again, if he has I really don't even blame him at this point. I would totally blame Bird/Walsh/O'Brien for letting this happen.

    Going back to the conditioning thing here for a min. I really really would like to see him limited to 30 min. a game for now because to me he looked winded, out of it or something.

    Not a bad game from him, but certainly not a great 4th quarter at all.

    Danny Granger - I have no idea what happened here. The first quarter he was outplaying Anthony or at least holding his own. Went to the bench and never came back till after the half. We were wonding if he got injured or something. You guys that watched on t.v. can tell us more if you know.

    But then came back in the second half an proceded to stink. His defense was weak, his passing was horrid and his shot selection resembled that of Dell Curry (without the ability to hit). 0-6 from three point land tells me that he should have driven the lane.

    BTW, here is the differance between J.O. and Marcus Camby. Ever notice that Camby actually makes teams alter thier offense? O'Brien said after the game that Marcus stopped us from going inside. J.O. even when he had the most blocked shots in the league does not scare people off from driving. The same year he led the league in blocks is also the same year he led the league in getting dunked on as well.

    I digress.

    Danny just did not have a good second half.

    Troy - I get it, he can shoot the three. However do we really truely need our center/powerforward shooting 70% of his shots from behind the arc? I'm not complaining about his game overall, but that is just a little more than I would want. He hit the boards, I think he played solid defense and didn't make any stupid errors.

    Actually other than the fact that he didn't do anything other than shoot three's I think Troy had probably the best overall game of anyone that played.

    Dunleavy - I wrong here or did Mike even get up a shot in the 4th quarter? It seems to me that Mike dissapeared in the 4th and frankly I can't tell if it was from his lack of aggresiveness or the fact that the guy never seemed to touch the ball.

    Last season there were a couple of times I wondered aloud if Jamaal wasn't freezing Mike out of the offense and well frankly in this game I am going to wonder that aloud again.

    Or maybe it was Mike not actually guarding anyone in the 4th that made O'Brien not run anything for him??? I don't know.

    Good shooting % from the floor, so that really really makes me wonder why he didn't take more (if any) shots down toward the end of the game? I kept also wondering why we weren't letting Mike run the plays down at the end, I would much rather ran Mike at the point than Jamaal, but that's just me.

    Jeff Foster - Another day at the office for Jeff. Good solid overall play, nothing spectacular but not bad either. I like Jeff in the role of big man off of the bench. IMO, he becomes one of the if not the best big men off of the bench in the NBA.

    I really would have rather seen a lineup of Jeff, Troy, Shawne, Danny and Mike in the 4th than what we got. No, I'm not kidding either.

    Shawne Williams - He's getting there. Getting aggressive around the rim on the rebounding (although his stats. don't bare that out tonight but he was fighting for the boards) however his shot was dropping, again leading me to ask why did he not shoot more in the 4th? For a second year player I'd say he is coming along nicely and as the season progesses I think we may get to see that lineup of Ike, Danny and Shawne on the floor together (dare I dream that I could see Ike, Danny, Shawne and Bynum)

    Kareem Rush - Solid game for the most part, well other than his defense but I am not faulting him for that by much. He is not as aggressive on offense as I thought he would be so that is suprising I guess, but on the other hand I think it is good he doesn't force things either. Had some really nice dribble dishes that led to some nice interior layups.

    Again, like I said before, we got him on the cheap and anything he produces in a positive light is actually a bonus and Bird should take credit for it. But this guy is not going to push for the two spot either.

    Daniels - failure, that is all.

    Ok that may be a little harsh. I guess we wanted him to run the point against Iverson, probably not the wisest of ideas. However our other option was Travis Diener, so I guess Daniels wasn't that bad afterall.

    Travis Diener - Waste of space. Can't even depend on him to give the starter 10 solid min. of backup work? Look I want to like the guy, I really do. In fact I want to root for about anybody at this point to do good so they can get some min. from Mel-Mell the abuser. But as of yet in the regular season I have seen nothing and I mean nothing that makes me think he should get one min. on the floor above Andre Owens.

    Which brings me to Andre Owens???? What, really, you mean our best small man defender can't get one min. on the floor vs. Iverson?

    Something is rotten in Denmark and I have a feeling it's the same old same old of rotten.

    Speaking of rotten, should we even talk about David Harrison? No, not really why waste bandwidth on him. Honest to God he may be the least sensible person I've ever seen on the floor. Ok, that is already to much about him.

    Now to coaching.

    People this loss I lay at the feet of Jim O'Brien. No, not 100% but he deserves the lions share of the blame. He saw the collapes, he saw the same ball hogging crap that the rest of us did and he did nothing about it.

    So he must have been ok with it.

    The defense never shifted to help with the pick and roll they were running and he never made any adjustments to fix this.

    If, as I suspect deep inside, that we have already shifted offensive schemes even just a little, then I am really really dissapointed and all of the tough talk from both him and Bird was just that. Talk.

    Again, never get to up after a win nor to down after a loss. However there are some trends developing that are troubling to say the least.

    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

    Originally posted by Peck View Post
    I have to really fault whoever in management made the decision that we did not need a strong backup for Jamaal. I really fault them for not saying we need a replacement for Jamaal but what's the point by now.
    There's a bunch of point guards in the upcoming draft. I think Draft Express has 6 going in the first round and 8 in the 2nd round. So it could be TPTB decided O'B wanted to coach this team, why not let him? If he does good, more power to him, if not we have a good draft pick. Plus we can always trade JO for more picks before the trade deadline.

    Personally I think I would rather see the Pacers stink for a year and get one of those points, because I don't think Tinsley will ever turn the corner. He could, in fact I picked him for third team NBA this year. HA HA HA, what a dummy!
    Last edited by Will Galen; 11-11-2007, 08:19 AM.


    • #3
      Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

      Originally posted by Peck View Post

      Look I don't mean to offend the Jamaal fan club but after that fourth quarter if Jamaal Tinsley never played another min. on our team I would be happy.
      I don't know that I've ever read anything I agreed with more than this statement.

      The 4th quarter last night was the Tins & JO show, and we can all see how far that's going to get us this season.

      At least I was smart enough to bet on Iverson having a big game last night.
      "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

      - Salman Rushdie


      • #4
        Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

        Now everyone can see how much we miss Diogu. When I say that I am half kidding but I am
        also half serious. Diogu helps this team through the rough spots and boy have we missed him the last 3. Unfortunately we will have to wait for half the season to be over before
        I draw any long term conclusions. JO has turned into Chris Webber after his knee was gone.
        Tins is Tins.


        • #5
          Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

          Earlier in the summer I said I could wait and see how JT did under a new coach. I've seen enough. I can't think of a worse team than the Pacers so I guess I'll just pull for sending him to a colder climate.


          and as everyone knows, I'd have gladly sent JO to the Lakers, wouldn't that have been poetic?

          But seriously....look at Chicago and think about THAT situation.

          and yes, it appears that someone requested a change to the offense, but at least they didn't do it publicly this year.
          Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.


          • #6
            Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

            The thing about Diogu is A) he gives a little offensive punch off the bench and B)although he still is prone to mistakes, he always plays with great aggressiveness and effort. The hallmarks of, at the least, an excellent 2nd unit spark.

            I've been saying since the preseason that, even given a healty and high-performing JO, his minutes should never exceed about 32.

            Twofold reason. One is obviously to conserve him. Also to use the bench for development purposes and create the expectation of a team ethic-that only contributions from everyone can lead to success given this team's makeup.

            Tinsley? The backup PG point is quite salient. But I think the argument you're really trying to make (or are making) is not just the need for a solid backup, but a solid replacement for Jamaal when he starts going off on his tangents or otherwise gravitates toward on-court performance detrimental to the team. In other words, the backup you pine for is the one who's really starting calibur.
            I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

            -Emiliano Zapata


            • #7
              Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

              I think we are going to see Daniels be the primary backup for Tinsley. I think O'Brien is also going to shorten the rotation.

              JO looks 35 to me an old 35. I said over the summer that now was the time to trade JO because he is on the downside of his career physically, and with his type of body and game once he loses his athleticism he is toast. I pray he opts out at the end of the season

              If the Bulls continue to lose - one of two things are going to happen. Skiles will get fired (Scott is a great coach but he has a short shelf-life because of how hard he drives his players and if the Bulls lose 10% of their normal intenisity because they are starting to tune out the coach, then the Bulls won't be any good) or the Bulls will look to make a trade and I would have no problem of trading JO to the Bulls - and no I don't expect much in return - I don't expect Deng in fact I don't expect any of their starters - JO
              's trade value is in a nose dive right now. So maybe our best bet is for him to opt out. But he'll only do that if he wants to get out of Indiana - becauae he won't make anything near the salary he's making now. He's a shell of his former self.

              We can spend a day and a half talking about backup point guards (and I know why having a good backup is important because of JT) But the backup isn't the problem. The starter is the problem - for any team the starting point guard is the most important player on your team (unless you have a dominant transendent shooting guard (Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Jordan) And right now our starting point guard is simply not good enough. That needs to be addressed first
              Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-11-2007, 02:19 PM.


              • #8
                Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

                Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                And right now our starting point guard is simply not good enough. That needs to be addressed first
                I'd rather have a Travis Best clone.


                • #9
                  Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

                  Originally posted by Will Galen View Post
                  I'd rather have a Travis Best clone.

                  Heaven help me, yer right. TB is looking better all the wait.. I..I
                  Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.


                  • #10
                    Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

                    Knock Jamaal all you want, with good reason, but I don't know if there's a team in this league we could beat if he didn't play.
                    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!


                    • #11
                      Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

                      Originally posted by able View Post
                      Stats up to the start of the 4th quarter for the 4 "culprits" of last night

                      JT: FG 3-5; Rb 6; Ast 8; TO 2

                      JO: FG 4-7; Rb 6; Ast 4; TO 2; FT 3-4

                      MD;FG 7-9; Rb 5; Ast 4; TO 0

                      DG; FG 4-13;Rb 2; Ast 1; TO 1

                      These are the actual stats, at the start of the 4th
                      In the 4th, DunDun and Tins get a breather of 2 minutes, JO 31 seconds and DG fouls out with 8 seconds left.

                      JO continuous the quarter going 1-7 from the field, (getting 4 FT's) getting 6 reb (3 Off) and creates 2 TO's (fouls)

                      MD continuous the quarter going 0-2 grabbing 1 board and 1 TO

                      DG continuous the 4th quarter with 2 - 5, 2 reb (off own miss) 1 Ast

                      JT continuous the 1st 9 minutes of the quarter going 1-4; 1 rb, 1 Ast and 1 TO
                      In the final 3 minutes JT adds 1-6; 1 Rb; 1 Ast; 1 TO

                      Now add to that the hard fact that movement in the 2nd half got less and less and less, Quis, Rush and Foster hardly played and Murphy despite 3 rebounds in about 9 minutes was also a non-factor nd it becomes painfully clear that the impression those final 5 minutes left are the impression that the game was that way.
                      Well it wasn't

                      JO is coming back from injury that disipated his conditioning, and should not play more then 30 minutes, so has to show serious fatigue towards the end of those 30, yet he played 35 and still picked up 6 of the 17 rebounds we had in the quarter.

                      Tins' final 3 minutes were at the very least 3 called plays by JOB out of time-outs, so someone had hopes higher then most of you.

                      I'll say it on more time, we have a new team, a new coach with a new system on O and on D, which was expected to last us till the AS break to "master" that system, yet here we are, 6 games in, and not as some predicted 0-6 but 3-3, and the sky is falling, JT and JO should be ridden out of town, tarred and feathered on a steel rail to never be seen again.

                      Two games in a row, Danny has put in a pathetic second half performance at least ( and I maintain that despite early good shooting in both games his D was suspect to say the least, this game his 1st q was ok, after that it was pure drama where he was more out of position on D then any other player we have) yet nobody says a word about that.
                      Diener; let's not even go there, DunDun dissapeared again in the 2nd half as well, he just for whatever reason stops moving the way he does the 1st half and if he's not moving he's not making shots, nor is he in position to get the ball,

                      Coach announced in his press conferecen that he will go more with Quis as the backup PG, I think that says enough about hte two we have "pencilled" in there, the "faith" aint there anymore.

                      I don't mind anyone pointing out that JO and JT shot abysmal in the 4th, it's true, but you see, no one else took the shot, and they did get the chance.

                      As someone pointed out, their bench ate DunDun and Granger for breakfast specially in the 2nd half, if our D fails, then we don't get the early shot, or the easy shot, which means we have to go with plan B, and since we hardly have mastered plan A, we haven't even thought about plan B by the looks of it and that is where we went to hell in a basket twice in two games.

                      For those of you screaming about JO and JT playing at all, Coach quite obviously thinks differently, and I tend to have more faith in his judgement.

                      I also have more faith in this team, they will get it eventually, we will get to the playoffs and make some noise there, once we start "getting it".

                      I am pleased by the play I see in the 1st half and really don't expect them to maintain it yet for a full game, but we will see plan B clicking in soon enough so we can hold on to those leads, the fact we can create them says a lot to me.

                      Am I not dissapointed in the loss ? yes of course I am, however I don't throw anyone under the train for it, we'll get there soon enough, untill then I support this team instead of bemoaning it or cursing it.
                      This was posted by Able in another thread, but could fit in here with all the
                      overly negative posts by those who would bemoan the team already instead
                      of show support...which is saddening, if not just plain ridiculous.

                      So far we are a .500 team, there is a looong way to go, and JOB has been
                      pushing these players harder than they have ever been pushed.

                      I would much rather see any breakdowns like we've seen happen early on
                      in the season than later. If this sort of thing were to happen in March or
                      April, then there would be real cause for sharp reaction, but right now?

                      It is nice to see posters like Able out there who can keep a cool head
                      when things come under fire.


                      • #12
                        Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

                        You know, people forget that Jamaal was playing excellent in the first half... he only had a few shot attempts, aka he wasn't chucking... and he had gathered 8 assists. He had a terrible 4th quarter. not game.

                        I can see the argument for blaming obrien... but can you really pull two of your best players in the last three minutes of a close game?

                        I saw positives and negatives in this game, but the negatives look fixable and it is very early in the season. The offense ran exactly like it was supposed to in the first half. and I feel like there are as many things to feel good about with the first quarter as their are to feel bad about in the 4th. Give it some time people...
                        "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

                        - ilive4sports


                        • #13
                          Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

                          Originally posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
                          You know, people forget that Jamaal was playing excellent in the first half... he only had a few shot attempts, aka he wasn't chucking... and he had gathered 8 assists. He had a terrible 4th quarter. not game.

                          I can see the argument for blaming obrien... but can you really pull two of your best players in the last three minutes of a close game?

                          I saw positives and negatives in this game, but the negatives look fixable and it is very early in the season. The offense ran exactly like it was supposed to in the first half. and I feel like there are as many things to feel good about with the first quarter as their are to feel bad about in the 4th. Give it some time people...
                          Jamaal had 8 assists at the end of the first half because the Pacers were shooting over 60%. They were knocking down their outside shots. His 8 assists weren't plays where he created the open shot for a teammate through any doing of their own. He merely made a pass to an open man who made a shot. It counts as an assist, but it's nothing that Kevin Ollie couldn't have done.

                          I like this team. I like the way they've played ball in the first half of every game this year. I like every player on this team other than Tins and the version of JO we saw in the fourth quarter last night. I think that this team has the chance to be a successful playoff team this year.


                          PG play is a huge problem. People in the know have been saying for years that they'd not take the Pacers seriously until they had a new starting PG. Other than the 4th quarter against the Wizards, Tins has been bad this year.

                          Buck, I hope that O'Brien does not shorten the rotation. I'd love to see him yanking guys off the floor the minute they fall short of maximum effort. I know it's a different situation, but in Purdue's second exhibition game the other day, they started out like crap. Painter pulled all 5 starters about 3 or 4 minutes into the game. He then gradually substituted them back in. The message was sent and the won the game by 20+ points. When the ball movement and backdoor cuts stop, start yanking guys. You don't move without the ball, you sit on the bench. That's what I thought we were getting with O'Brien.
                          "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

                          - Salman Rushdie


                          • #14
                            Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

                            I remember at least once or twice when Jamaal drove to the hoop and then passed back out to find an open man for three. You could make that argument against any PG in the league... "well they only got an assist cause they passed to an open man who got a shot" well isn't that his job? he had 8 assists and only 2 turnovers... if it is so easy than anyone should be able to do it. the discussion becomes irrelevant.
                            "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

                            - ilive4sports


                            • #15
                              Re: Odd thoughts about the collapse to Denver

                              This season is about turning the corner. I don't have the expectation that that corner would be turned by game 6. There are losing habits that players must fix. I believe or hope that this coach's eye is on developing and becoming a better team at season's end.
                              "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

                              "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."