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3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

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  • #31
    Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

    Originally posted by Isaac View Post
    When we first made that trade it was easy to look at it in a way that seemed to benifit us, but really we should have seen this coming.

    When we did that deal we acquired a team that fields a starting lineup with a complete lack of a second option, and 3 very poor defensive players. How did we ever expect to win many ballgames with this club?
    I'd like to point out that many of us DID see this coming. The Pacers are dead in the water, and if Donnie Walsh pulls some BS this offseason about how we should expect Dunleavy/Murphy to be better next year because of time to gel, I'm gonna hurt somebody. And the team will be dead in the water by preseason.

    The talent was questionable even before the trade. First round and out talent is what we had. But now lottery talent is what is being played.

    Somehow they gotta get rid of Murphy/Dunleavy or at the very least bury them at the end of the bench and give big minutes to the young players.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

      Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
      Everyone keeps calling these guys knuckleheads. The fact is this league is full of 'em and some coaches know how to deal with them and some don't. Some key players on championship contenders are/have been knuckleheads. Kobe Bryant, Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, Raheed Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Chauncey Billups, Chris Webber. It's the coaches responsibility to get these guys on the same page and buying into winning is key. That's why they have coaches. This Pacers team was a contender with a slew of knucklehead just in the past few seasons. I know Tinsley can be an ***, so can JO. It's Rick Carlisle's job to get these guys playing together. He has not done that while in Indiana. In fact, he's pushed players apart and in some cases to other teams.
      Explain to me how Artest, Jackson, and Tinsley even remotely fit into the above group of players you offered as examples.

      When have Bryant, Williams, Walker, Wallace, Billups, or Webber ever run into the stands after laying on the scorer's table in the middle of a game and then pummelled an innocent fan in a blind rage?

      When have any of those guys ever followed a teammate into the stands to do the same thing? Or admitted to getting into a bar fight during training camp and subsequently kicked a defenseless man on the ground and fired a handgun into the air?

      Or even allegedly been involved in the same fight, then some 3 months later allegedly been in another fight, severing a guys ear lobe and breaking his jaw?

      Rodman succeeded because he had Jordan and before that Isiah Thomas as teammates to keep him in line. Most teams don't have players of that caliber to wield that kind of clout. And it wasn't Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson's coaching.

      Apples and oranges.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

        You can keep talking about all kinds of things that don't happen on the basketball court. They have nothing to do with outcomes of games.
        I'm in these bands
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        Dr. Goldfoot
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        ME

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        • #34
          Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

          Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
          You can keep talking about all kinds of things that don't happen on the basketball court. They have nothing to do with outcomes of games.
          If the things that happen off the court keep players from practicing, or possibly missing entire seasons or 30 game chunks of seasons, then, yes, it would appear that they factor into the outcomes of games.

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          • #35
            Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

            This whole player off court incidents in respect to how they play has reached ridiculous proportions. If I remember correctly the whole brawl thing happened when the Pacers players were accosted by a stadium of drunk people. If I remember correctly our beloved Jermaine O'Neal was involved and suspended. Not to mention the vast majority of players and personnel, who weren't slapped with suspensions due to the fact that someone had to take the court. Players, people for that matter, go to bars and get in fights. None of the players involved have served jail time or missed games due to these incidents. Feel free to use the "I go to my job on time, don't go out past dark and always consider the consequences", when your job offers you a guaranteed salary in the millions until you're close to your retirement age then you can talk about how much you give a **** about getting to work on time or trying hard to be the best and don't go spending you new fortune having fun and start considering the consequences of being a young celebrity with more money than you can shake a stick at with a guarantee that the money will keep rolling in.

            This organization has had the players to get the job done and they've been shipped out because of player/coach conflicts and midwest conservative values end of story. You can't change the values of the fanbase but you can change the coach. If you get a coach who the players respect and can relate to you'll find players who put forth effort and rally around their leader. If this team was winning there'd be something else for the Star to cram down our throats.
            I'm in these bands
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            Dr. Goldfoot
            The Bar Brawlers
            ME

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            • #36
              Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

              Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
              This whole player off court incidents in respect to how they play has reached ridiculous proportions. If I remember correctly the whole brawl thing happened when the Pacers players were accosted by a stadium of drunk people. If I remember correctly our beloved Jermaine O'Neal was involved and suspended. Not to mention the vast majority of players and personnel, who weren't slapped with suspensions due to the fact that someone had to take the court. Players, people for that matter, go to bars and get in fights. None of the players involved have served jail time or missed games due to these incidents. Feel free to use the "I go to my job on time, don't go out past dark and always consider the consequences", when your job offers you a guaranteed salary in the millions until you're close to your retirement age then you can talk about how much you give a **** about getting to work on time or trying hard to be the best and don't go spending you new fortune having fun and start considering the consequences of being a young celebrity with more money than you can shake a stick at with a guarantee that the money will keep rolling in.

              This organization has had the players to get the job done and they've been shipped out because of player/coach conflicts and midwest conservative values end of story. You can't change the values of the fanbase but you can change the coach. If you get a coach who the players respect and can relate to you'll find players who put forth effort and rally around their leader. If this team was winning there'd be something else for the Star to cram down our throats.
              You've proven my point. "None of the players involved have served jail time or missed games due to these incidents." 2 of the players that you cited as the talented individuals Carlisle has alienated, Ron Artest and Steven Jackson, missed a combined 100 plus games in that one season alone. Who else in the list of knuckleheads you mentioned have done anything remotely similar to that? Apples. Oranges.

              These individuals, young as they are, are guaranteed million dollar salaries to play a game. We all have our crosses to bear, I guess . If I don't believe that the pressures of money or the spotlight excuse criminal assault, I'm not being sympathetic enough? Huh?!

              I agree that Carlisle doesn't manage his players well. What in the hell that has to do with all the crap Artest, Jackson, and Tinsley have pulled, I'll never know.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                This organization has had the players to get the job done and they've been shipped out because of player/coach conflicts and midwest conservative values end of story
                Your assessment is tempting, but just doesn't stand the test of scrutiny. And "end of story" is just too absolutist.

                Carlisle is certainly not the best in terms of player-relations. But is Rick responsible for Ron's relational problems in Sacremento? Nope. Rick was handed a head case, and you could even argue that it was his relational coaching skills that got the Ps at least one or two good seasons with the guy.

                Is it Rick's fault that Jackson packs a gun and shoots it in a scrape with idiots like an adolescent? Is it Rick's fault that he makes a complete *** of himself and gets booed by fans? Is it Rick's fault that he has no consideration for others or the larger picture and jacks it up reguarly with 14 on the shot clock?

                Is it Rick's fault that Al Harrington developed a similar attitude of offensive selfishness and demanded a trade? That Al couldn't work out a way to share the ball with his best bud? That he got more enamored with his three shot than his defense the past few years?

                Is it Rick's fault that Jamaal takes terrible care of himself and probably smokes weed regularly and irresponsibly?

                Rick isn't the cause. He may not have been able to fix it, but it's arguable whether the Zen master or any other coach could have fixed these bad apples.

                I'm pleased to have Murphleavy instead. We may not be winning as much right now, but if we ever do, it will be based on the right foundation. I'm thinking of a quote about gaining the world but losing your soul.
                "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                  Originally posted by Sh4d3 View Post
                  It's been a while since I've had to wonder what it feels like to be one of the worst teams in the league.

                  But with the 1-13 tear we're currently on, I wonder no more.

                  Btw, I'd like to know what our record is w/o Quis, since the GS trade. The only win that comes to mind is the Atlanta game, and Danny seems to play much worse w/o him.
                  I too was interested in the answer to this.

                  With Quis: 6-4 (2 of the losses were to the Suns)

                  W/O Quis: 4-14

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                  • #39
                    Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                    Almost ever team has a knucklehead. That's life in the NBA (and probably all pro sports).

                    It's when they hit critical mass that it becomes a problem. See Portland for an example.

                    And we have had a critical mass-load of knuckleheads over the past couple of years.

                    We don't have a strong leader to moderate the reaction. JO doesn't seem to do much to keep the knuckleheads under control. Ron was a knucklehead. The PG is a one. The most "passionate" player was one.

                    While RC has flaws, I don't think ANYBODY, the "zen master" included, could manage this group.
                    You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
                    All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

                    - Jimmy Buffett

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                    • #40
                      Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                      Originally posted by Doug
                      And we have had a critical mass-load of knuckleheads over the past couple of years.
                      Nice.
                      Narf!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                        ON THE COURT


                        The whole suspension stuff from the brawl was ridiculous. We've all covered that. I'm just surprised so many now use that against the players. I thought Stern/Piston fans were the bad guys in all of that.

                        And yes it is the coaches fault if players are being selfish on the court or shooting the three too much or not running the plays or arguing with officials. That is an NBA coaches job to keep the players in line on the court in both performance and behavior. What exactly does a coach at this level do? He decides which of the ultra-talented players get to play. They're not teaching free throw shooting fundamentals. If a player can't shoot a free throw...they hire a free throw specialist.

                        In the game vs. the Spurs, it was Rick Carlisle's job to recognize that Jamaal Tinsley was frustrated by the pressure defense, lack of calls and direction the game was taking. It was obvious to me that Jamaal was out of control a few minutes before he was ejected. He was pushing Parker on both offense and defense, he was lowering his head and driving with little control and needed to sit down and cool off. Instead, he was left in and exploded. Afterwards, you could see Rick asking Johnny Davis "What did he do?".....he didn't even know why Tinsley was ejected. He didn't recognize an integral part of the team was losing his composure and let it escalate into something that could've easily been avoided.......sounds familiar doesn't it.
                        I'm in these bands
                        The Humans
                        Dr. Goldfoot
                        The Bar Brawlers
                        ME

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                          P.S.

                          Jamaal Tinsley acted like a fool. I'm just stating some other issues I feel should be addressed.
                          I'm in these bands
                          The Humans
                          Dr. Goldfoot
                          The Bar Brawlers
                          ME

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                          • #43
                            Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                            I would say that Daniels is our most valuable player. His ability to break down the defense is invaluable.

                            By the by, I say we play the rest of the season out in the old school uniforms with the hand holding the ball . That's about how we're playing right now.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                              Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                              The whole suspension stuff from the brawl was ridiculous. We've all covered that. I'm just surprised so many now use that against the players. I thought Stern/Piston fans were the bad guys in all of that.
                              It doesn't matter if you or I think it was ridiculous. It happened, and that's how history is going to document it.

                              Ron missed 70+ some odd games, and Jackson missed 30. End of story. They missed 100+ games combined because they acted like complete idiots.

                              Their stupid behavior cost them and the franchise a lot more than wins with their actions.
                              Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: 3/21/07 Pacers @ Spurs Post Game Thread

                                Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                                ON THE COURT


                                The whole suspension stuff from the brawl was ridiculous. We've all covered that. I'm just surprised so many now use that against the players. I thought Stern/Piston fans were the bad guys in all of that.

                                And yes it is the coaches fault if players are being selfish on the court or shooting the three too much or not running the plays or arguing with officials. That is an NBA coaches job to keep the players in line on the court in both performance and behavior. What exactly does a coach at this level do? He decides which of the ultra-talented players get to play. They're not teaching free throw shooting fundamentals. If a player can't shoot a free throw...they hire a free throw specialist.

                                In the game vs. the Spurs, it was Rick Carlisle's job to recognize that Jamaal Tinsley was frustrated by the pressure defense, lack of calls and direction the game was taking. It was obvious to me that Jamaal was out of control a few minutes before he was ejected. He was pushing Parker on both offense and defense, he was lowering his head and driving with little control and needed to sit down and cool off. Instead, he was left in and exploded. Afterwards, you could see Rick asking Johnny Davis "What did he do?".....he didn't even know why Tinsley was ejected. He didn't recognize an integral part of the team was losing his composure and let it escalate into something that could've easily been avoided.......sounds familiar doesn't it.

                                To quote from another 70's superstar (Dave Mason, I think): "There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy, ...we just disagree." Or something like that.

                                It was pretty much par for the course for Rick to respond to the situation by saying he didn't see it.

                                The message from our coach: Tinsley's great. We sure need him. Tough break. We've got to stick together, though....

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