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Post Trade Thoughts

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  • Post Trade Thoughts

    I know I'm not breaking any new ground here and that I could've just broken this post down and put each part into an existing thread. I'm rebellious like that. I'm going to attempt to break down the Pacers position by position.

    Point Guard:
    Can we just drop the absolute negativity surrounding Jamaal Tinsley for a few minutes? Jamaal's been solid. Before you skip the rest of my post and start with your rebuttals, hear me out. I saw a defensive effort against the Heat I've never seen before from Tinsley. He was picking Williams up at the half court line and keeping him from initiating the offense at will. He got beat on some pick and rolls and J-Will flat out ran by him in the open court at least once. What he didn't do was force a bunch of shots, go all Rucker league, or lose his mind and just start pushing people when he got burnt. He had 5 turnovers vs the Heat (one went thru Murphy's hands and one was when he just threw the ball out on the court to let the time expire) and only one against the Knicks. In the same time span he has 12 assists and 5 steals. That's not gonna get you on the all-star team but it's solid. He's also averaging 14.5 points. I am concerned with the overall position though. I like Armstrong. I also know he's 38 years old and his game relies entirely on the one thing 38 year old atheletes cannot provide night in and night out...energy. I want to see DA playing like he did against the Knicks in the playoffs not in a wheelchair. I think if we keep riding this guy like we have post trade that's where he'll end up. He's playing 26 minutes a night because we have no formidable backup points. Orien Greene and Keith McLeod aren't nincompoops like Eddie Gill but I wouldn't be upset if they never saw the court. We don't need a guy who wants 20 minutes a night but we need someone who can be relied upon to keep the train rolling. Maybe that guy is McLeod I don't know.

    Swingmen:
    I've decided to just combine all of our 2's and 3's. This isn't a team with a Reggie Miller or Ray Allen. We have 5 players who play both positions. They may be better at one but all will see time at both. Danny Granger is coming into his own offensively and he did a nice job defensively on Wade, but we need more than 3.5 rebounds a game from him and that's what he's given us since returning to the starting lineup. Daniels and Dunleavy are similar in the sense that they don't have to score to be effective, but on any given night one of them needs to be able to put the ball in the basket. Mike JR.'s shooting has been awful, not his selection per se but he's just not making shots. Daniels shot has started to fall, but over the course of the season he's been on and off. I'm hoping his regulated role will see an end to his inconsistency. Williams got 25 in that first game before the new guys arrived but his minutes have all but vanished. That's alright with me. He's getting 5-10 a game and that will allow him to settle in without the pressure of having to produce. Marshall is the odd man out for now.

    The Big Fellas:
    JO needs the ball in the post. This is slowing us down. It's also a double edged sword because we need JO to produce and we need him to produce in the post. It's like we're running two teams over the course of a game. We all just need to realize that sometimes we are gonna open up the floor and sometimes we're gonna slow it down and pound it down the other teams throats. I like being able to do both. Jeff Foster is a nice guy. That plays into the hands of Carlisle right now. He can move Jeff to the bench and he'll still give you everything he's got. Foster's seeing 15-20 and I'm fine with that. He may not be a traditional offensive force but he has his moments away from the ball and obviously on the boards. His defense and rebounding will be needed as we go down the stretch. Troy Murphy has that outside shot we've been missing since Brad left us for the coast. While he's not exactly on par with Miller during that part of his career, he's certainly closer than Pollard or Foster ever will be. Ike Diogu is a future piece. If he can work his way in now, like Williams is doing, he'll be fine. I will say I expect him to actually work his way into some minutes by the end of the regular season. He isn't going to make the transition as easily as Murphy and Dunleavy have, but his past numbers indicate he can contribute in the reserve role once occupied by Baston. Maceo is the odd man out for now.

    That just leaves David Harrison. I don't care. I gave up on him awhile back. Maybe we can add some variation of Harrison, Baston, Greene, McLeod & Marshall into a solid vet backup point guard. I think things are looking bright as long as Carlisle knows when to play the guys that are producing and sit the guys that aren't without making it a big hullabaloo, we'll be just fine.
    I'm in these bands
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    Dr. Goldfoot
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  • #2
    Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    I don't think it's necessarily bad to slow things down by feeding JO-he's our most reliable scorer, and even last night, the shots he was taking are ones he usually makes.

    I've been impressed by how willing he is to share the ball and to give us more D AND more boards. He also seems to be more vocal on the court towards his teammates. Wish he'd stop with the "If this team isn't getting better, I'm outta here" message, but the way he's played this season gives us a chance to be a really good team.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Post Trade Thoughts

      When i first heard the trade my initial reaction was
      ....is this a joke? I mean Jackson and Harrington are extremely talented players and I absolutely loved Sarunas and wanted him to succeed here. I still feel like the right coach could help him produce in this league.

      Anyhow, after a few games I am excited. The fact that we no longer are a poor rebounding team makes me ecstatic. Getting rebounds = winning games. It is equally as important as any other factor. I am excited about Murphy and O'neal, murphy copliments Jermaines game well. I think the only other big guy in the league, that we could of realistically got would be Nenad Krstic.

      Getting rid of Jackson and Harringtons collective attitudes was a great thing. Harrington didn't change since last time he was here, he is a me me me player and we all KNOW that by now. I just think a huge burden has been lifted off of indy. I really think last nights game proves it, who would of thought we would win overtime against Dwayne Wade and the heat. With Jackson and Al we definitely would of lost.

      I really wish Larry Bird would just step up and coach this team, Carlisle is horrible. Luckily the group of guys we have now, are pretty coachable players but I still don't like Carlisle. Tinsley struggles working in carlisles system and I think that's a big reason everyone has issues with him.

      I really wish we could trade SOMEBODY for a draft pick next year. I'd trade Maceo, Rawle, Harrison, Greene any one of those guys or even two for a draft pick. At this point we could easily trade Foster to a bad team for a solid draft pick. We do not need him anymore and I love foster but it's the truth We really just need another young guy coming in to progress with our future core of Granger, Williams, Diogu, Dunleavy, Daniels.

      I still think the Pacers need another big move involving any the guys that do not play right now, foster, tins, and williams. Williams is redundant with Granger/Dun/Quis/Rawle.

      Am I crazy or should a foster, tins, williams combo be enough to net us a point guard who is better than Tinsley and a GOOD draft pick.
      *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Post Trade Thoughts

        Originally posted by Jon Theodore View Post
        When i first heard the trade my initial reaction was
        ....is this a joke? I mean Jackson and Harrington are extremely talented players and I absolutely loved Sarunas and wanted him to succeed here. I still feel like the right coach could help him produce in this league.

        Anyhow, after a few games I am excited. The fact that we no longer are a poor rebounding team makes me ecstatic. Getting rebounds = winning games. It is equally as important as any other factor. I am excited about Murphy and O'neal, murphy copliments Jermaines game well. I think the only other big guy in the league, that we could of realistically got would be Nenad Krstic.

        Getting rid of Jackson and Harringtons collective attitudes was a great thing. Harrington didn't change since last time he was here, he is a me me me player and we all KNOW that by now. I just think a huge burden has been lifted off of indy. I really think last nights game proves it, who would of thought we would win overtime against Dwayne Wade and the heat. With Jackson and Al we definitely would of lost.

        I really wish Larry Bird would just step up and coach this team, Carlisle is horrible. Luckily the group of guys we have now, are pretty coachable players but I still don't like Carlisle. Tinsley struggles working in carlisles system and I think that's a big reason everyone has issues with him.

        I really wish we could trade SOMEBODY for a draft pick next year. I'd trade Maceo, Rawle, Harrison, Greene any one of those guys or even two for a draft pick. At this point we could easily trade Foster to a bad team for a solid draft pick. We do not need him anymore and I love foster but it's the truth We really just need another young guy coming in to progress with our future core of Granger, Williams, Diogu, Dunleavy, Daniels.

        I still think the Pacers need another big move involving any the guys that do not play right now, foster, tins, and williams. Williams is redundant with Granger/Dun/Quis/Rawle.

        Am I crazy or should a foster, tins, williams combo be enough to net us a point guard who is better than Tinsley and a GOOD draft pick.
        It is really hard to get 2007 draft picks right now. That trio might get you the PG but not the pick. Also, why would any team that is projected to have a good pick want Foster or Tins?
        Slug 'em Sabres!!!!!
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=cj1SUF4wzu0

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Post Trade Thoughts

          Originally posted by JB's Breakout Year View Post
          I don't think it's necessarily bad to slow things down by feeding JO-he's our most reliable scorer, and even last night, the shots he was taking are ones he usually makes.
          Either do I. It looks like we can run a little smoother with the new guys/different lineups and still be effective with the tradintional Carlisle slogball. I was just pointing out how we are going to be doing both possibly, not just one or the other. The offense isn't necessarily flowing better with certain players on the floor, it's just being run differently. I thought the Heat game was a good example of both, with the exception of JO missing a few he'd normally make with ease. We have some perimeter players that are more capable of creating something out of nothing, which is what happens when we can't get JO the ball where he needs it. There should be a little less Jamaal having to drive the lane and hope something happens now that Daniels, Dunleavy and Granger will be seeing more time and Murphy can make jump shots which isn't exactly Foster's forte.
          I'm in these bands
          The Humans
          Dr. Goldfoot
          The Bar Brawlers
          ME

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Post Trade Thoughts

            Interesting, NOW everyone is starting to realize the importance of having a 2007 #1.

            Where was this sentiment when the FORUM, en masse, was basically LAUDING TPTB for securing that trade exemption that got us AL for the #1?

            I've posted repeatedly about this AND finally it's sinking in, apparently.

            Biggest BLUNDER of the YEAR: Artest and a #1 for BIG AL

            Bird and Walsh messed up BIGTIME here and whatever they do they can't make up for what was the team's ONLY chance to get better WITHOUT taking on exhorbitant salaries.

            All they had to do was accept losing Artest for nothing,
            play the team they had (LESS AL but giving the young players plenty of run) and cash in on that early to mid teens pick in a very rich draft.

            Bet that there will be any number of players available at that slot that POTENTIALLY are much better than Dunleavy, Murphy, and YES, AL.

            On the other hand, let's enjoy mediocrity and SALARY CAP hell.

            Is this the part of the year when BIRD goes off on YET ANOTHER European scouting trip ---he's renowned for finding gems over there?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Post Trade Thoughts

              Originally posted by v_d_g View Post
              Interesting, NOW everyone is starting to realize the importance of having a 2007 #1.

              Where was this sentiment when the FORUM, en masse, was basically LAUDING TPTB for securing that trade exemption that got us AL for the #1?

              I've posted repeatedly about this AND finally it's sinking in, apparently.

              Biggest BLUNDER of the YEAR: Artest and a #1 for BIG AL

              Bird and Walsh messed up BIGTIME here and whatever they do they can't make up for what was the team's ONLY chance to get better WITHOUT taking on exhorbitant salaries.

              All they had to do was accept losing Artest for nothing,
              play the team they had (LESS AL but giving the young players plenty of run) and cash in on that early to mid teens pick in a very rich draft.

              Bet that there will be any number of players available at that slot that POTENTIALLY are much better than Dunleavy, Murphy, and YES, AL.

              On the other hand, let's enjoy mediocrity and SALARY CAP hell.

              Is this the part of the year when BIRD goes off on YET ANOTHER European scouting trip ---he's renowned for finding gems over there?
              It's like asking Destined4Greatness about Jermaine O'Neal.

              Look, we get it.

              Secondly, I was for the trade not only because I liked Al, but because I saw the more important part: He's a bargaining chip. And we already used him wisely to make the GS trade happen. Without him, it doesn't. That's why you make that trade during the summer.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Post Trade Thoughts

                Originally posted by v_d_g View Post
                Interesting, NOW everyone is starting to realize the importance of having a 2007 #1.

                Where was this sentiment when the FORUM, en masse, was basically LAUDING TPTB for securing that trade exemption that got us AL for the #1?

                I've posted repeatedly about this AND finally it's sinking in, apparently.

                Biggest BLUNDER of the YEAR: Artest and a #1 for BIG AL

                Bird and Walsh messed up BIGTIME here and whatever they do they can't make up for what was the team's ONLY chance to get better WITHOUT taking on exhorbitant salaries.

                All they had to do was accept losing Artest for nothing,
                play the team they had (LESS AL but giving the young players plenty of run) and cash in on that early to mid teens pick in a very rich draft.

                Bet that there will be any number of players available at that slot that POTENTIALLY are much better than Dunleavy, Murphy, and YES, AL.

                On the other hand, let's enjoy mediocrity and SALARY CAP hell.

                Is this the part of the year when BIRD goes off on YET ANOTHER European scouting trip ---he's renowned for finding gems over there?
                I'd wondered if you were okay, since I hadn't seen a post from you blasting that trade in like, 24 hours. Glad you are back with us.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Post Trade Thoughts

                  I really don't care much about us not having a number 1. History shows us that if there is a player the Pacers really want that falls below 15 or so we'll make a trade to get that guy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Post Trade Thoughts

                    History also shows us this.....

                    Erick Dampier
                    Austin Croshere
                    Al Harrington
                    Jeff Foster(via Vonteego Cummings & a 1st rounder that would later=Murphy)
                    Primoz Brezec
                    A trade that secured Jamaal Tinsley ( our pick later turned into Boris Diaw)
                    Fred Jones
                    James Jones
                    David Harrison
                    Danny Granger
                    Shawne Williams

                    Largely role players not guys who put you in the finals.
                    I'm in these bands
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                    The Bar Brawlers
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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Post Trade Thoughts

                      Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
                      History also shows us this.....

                      Erick Dampier
                      Austin Croshere
                      Al Harrington
                      Jeff Foster(via Vonteego Cummings & a 1st rounder that would later=Murphy)
                      Primoz Brezec
                      A trade that secured Jamaal Tinsley ( our pick later turned into Boris Diaw)
                      Fred Jones
                      James Jones
                      David Harrison
                      Danny Granger
                      Shawne Williams

                      Largely role players not guys who put you in the finals.
                      But they are great picks for not being lottery picks... These are all players who have succeeded in the NBA except for maybe David. You can't expect to get players who will get you into the finals with the 17th pick (except maybe Danny!) Same thing with next years draft. The first 3 or 4 players drafted will be incredible players. The rest... not so incredible, but if teams do their research they can end up with a Solid Role player.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Post Trade Thoughts

                        Originally posted by v_d_g View Post
                        Bet that there will be any number of players available at that slot that POTENTIALLY are much better than Dunleavy, Murphy, and YES, AL.
                        you're forgetting we got diogu also. i consider him as the replacement for the #1 we gave up for harrington

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Post Trade Thoughts

                          Originally posted by wintermute View Post
                          you're forgetting we got diogu also. i consider him as the replacement for the #1 we gave up for harrington

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Post Trade Thoughts

                            Originally posted by v_d_g View Post
                            Interesting, NOW everyone is starting to realize the importance of having a 2007 #1.

                            Where was this sentiment when the FORUM, en masse, was basically LAUDING TPTB for securing that trade exemption that got us AL for the #1?

                            I've posted repeatedly about this AND finally it's sinking in, apparently.

                            Biggest BLUNDER of the YEAR: Artest and a #1 for BIG AL

                            Bird and Walsh messed up BIGTIME here and whatever they do they can't make up for what was the team's ONLY chance to get better WITHOUT taking on exhorbitant salaries.

                            All they had to do was accept losing Artest for nothing,
                            play the team they had (LESS AL but giving the young players plenty of run) and cash in on that early to mid teens pick in a very rich draft.

                            Bet that there will be any number of players available at that slot that POTENTIALLY are much better than Dunleavy, Murphy, and YES, AL.

                            On the other hand, let's enjoy mediocrity and SALARY CAP hell.

                            Is this the part of the year when BIRD goes off on YET ANOTHER European scouting trip ---he's renowned for finding gems over there?
                            I think you ascribe way too much value to a draft pick. Look, we're never going to get a high lottery pick unless we intentionally lead the team in that direction. Too much talent, too skilled of a coach.

                            Lower 1st round draft picks are a crap shoot, now matter how deep the draft. Look at them historically, and honestly tell me that we could be assured of getting a quality PG with a 2007 draft pick.

                            We have 1, 2, 3 very young up and coming rookies now. I believe management wisely parlayed draft picks into clear answers to deficits on the team. No one here knows the reasons for signing Al. For all we know, the decision could have been made as Hicks said, with the expressed purpose of having a valuable trading chip. That's not so out of the question, given that we already have a franchise PF (shrug).

                            It's easy to game your argument by saying that we traded Ron Artest + a 1st round draft pick for Al Harrington. I could game it the other way by saying that we traded a ticking time bomb, a strong player that would never find success in Indy due to lack of community support, Sarunas and a 1st round draft pick for Ike Diogu, a Foster that can shoot and a solid point forward that fits well into the Indy system. Harrington is why we were able to get Ike Diogu, plain and simple.

                            Now, the trade up + draft picks to get White. Well, that's another story.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Post Trade Thoughts

                              We're giving up like the 20th pick in the draft. That ain't gonna get you Danny Granger.
                              This space for rent.

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