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Peck
03-07-2005, 03:12 AM
The entire game was defined by one play, I'm pretty sure it was in the 3rd quarter. Reggie Miller had the ball running what looked like a 4 on 2 fast break which should have at worst come away with a foul.

But while dribbling Reggie pulls up at the three point line, the big problem with that? So did the other three players. Fred Jones, Stephen Jackson & James Jones all pulled up & stopped at the three point line. While L.A. regouped & caught up with numbers.

I will die wondering why our team, especially Reggie, is always so willing to just heave up three pointers.

I don't know exactly how many we shot last night, but it was way to many.

Why we did not drive the ball & cram it down their throats every play I will never know. Who on their team were we afraid of? I realize you are not always going to get up a shot in traffic but the three is much more effectivem, not to mention open, if you collapse the defense.

On defense we had stretches where I thought we played great & then on other occasions where I thought we struggled. But again we lost the game on the offensive end of the court because we could not/would not execute any play that didn't start with looking for a three.

Yes, I know we have no post up player. But you don't have to have a post up offense to just not take three's. Ball movement & player movement & CUTTING to the basket will sometimes make up for a lack of a post up game.

I thought Fred did well in his second attempt at the p.g. spot. I want to see him play this some more this season to maybe look at this as something for future player movements. I'm not saying I wouldn't rather have Jamaal, but I am getting awfully tired of him not playing. Yes, yes I know I'm an @ss because his foot is hurt. But how many games has the guy missed this season? They keep talking like he was injured on 1/31 & has been missing since. When in reality, yes he was injured then, but wasn't he missing like 2-3 weeks prior to that with a resp. infection & before that with his ankles (or something).

You can be Michael Jordan but if you can't play over half the games a year you are of no use to the team.

If Fred can prove he can hold down the spot, Jamaal may be expendable. I'm saying this & I'm the one who said he was the best p.g. in the NBA. But this is getting old.

I thought Jackson played a little selfish last night. Maybe he needs to? I don't know, it's not my preferance but that may be his mandate at this time.

I've given Reggie the promise of no complaining since he is retireing & in that mode let me say that Reggie had on nice shoes.

Dale was great again. But listening to me talk about Dale is worse than listening to U.B. talk about Artest, so feel free to overlook this. But I thought when he was on the floor he made the team look totally differant from the defensive end. He is going to have to go back to getting about 10 ppg. again as well I think if we have any hope of making anything of this season.

Jeff did good while he played. I'm not certain as to why he didn't play a little more in the second half, but I think they were just looking for any kind of offense they could get & Dale is already showing even at his advanced age that he is capable of manning the entire middle on defense better than anybody we have. But don't take that as a slam at Jeff, he did fine. I thought he did decent vs. Odom.

Cro played ok. Nothing great but nothing horrid either other than his hair & his dribbling (My God is he getting worse at dribbling as he gets older or is it just my imaination)

James Jones provided a warm body. He did decent on defense but we need more Offense from our small forward spot.

A.J. did ok, for a backup two guard.

Gill was non-consequintal & that's not really a good thing.

Harrison at least didn't foul out.

Pollard didn't really distinguish himself in any way.

At the end of the day we had a guy who just signed with the team less than 4 days ago, a small forward who should be the backup shooting guard, a shooting guard who is getting legacy starts, a point guard who should be the backup to the backup shooting guard starting for us. Do you really think we have many chances with this? You can win but you almost have to play error free ball & you cannot dig a hole, which we often do.

The season is not over, but the red lights better be flashing because as of now we are out of the playoffs. Because a tie with Philly is really a loss because they own the season series vs. us

BTW, am I the only one p!ssed that there is some super top seceret deal with Jamaal's injury? Why won't the Pacers or Jamaal just come out & say what it is? Why the big seceret?

Jose Slaughter
03-07-2005, 03:52 AM
I've been trying to tell my son, who has become quite the Pacer fan this season, not to get to distraught over the loosing. He's kindda funny. If the Pacers fall behind by more than 2 or 3 points he goes off the deep end.

I've explained to him that we are missing Artest as well as Tinsley & now JO, his favorite, out that the Pacers might be able to compete but winning every game simply is not going to happen.

Having so many players playing out of position also hasn't helped.

Peck, I think Tinsley is going thru the same thing Gasol is for Memphis. They simply didn't make the right call when they diagnosed the problem with their feet. After seeing what Tinsley tried to do in the playoffs last year I am willing to give him a little room on this one. I think he is aware that the team needs him if they have any kind of shot at the playoffs. My guess is, if he could be out there, he would. Please don't think every player is like Bender.

Without JO & Tinsley we won't make the playoffs.

So guys, try not to be too upset when we loose. I try to focus in on the growth of the players we have on the court, knowing that in the coming years we will be reaping what we are sowing.

Peck
03-07-2005, 05:41 AM
I've been trying to tell my son, who has become quite the Pacer fan this season, not to get to distraught over the loosing. He's kindda funny. If the Pacers fall behind by more than 2 or 3 points he goes off the deep end.

I've explained to him that we are missing Artest as well as Tinsley & now JO, his favorite, out that the Pacers might be able to compete but winning every game simply is not going to happen.

Having so many players playing out of position also hasn't helped.

Peck, I think Tinsley is going thru the same thing Gasol is for Memphis. They simply didn't make the right call when they diagnosed the problem with their feet. After seeing what Tinsley tried to do in the playoffs last year I am willing to give him a little room on this one. I think he is aware that the team needs him if they have any kind of shot at the playoffs. My guess is, if he could be out there, he would. Please don't think every player is like Bender.

Without JO & Tinsley we won't make the playoffs.

So guys, try not to be too upset when we loose. I try to focus in on the growth of the players we have on the court, knowing that in the coming years we will be reaping what we are sowing.

Oh, I'm sure he is hurt. You could tell by when he was trying to play he was hurt. At least he tried.

But honestly doesn't it get a little old with the same players year after year? Everbody kept griping about Brad & his end of the season injury's (which I might add he has again) but is Jamaal really any better?

The foot is obvious, but God it seems to me that he has missed more games than Jermaine, including the suspension & it seems like he has these things every year.

I guess I just got really spoiled by most of those guys in the 90's who played through pain that to have players sit out weeks at a time is just odd to me.

I know I know it's not their fault, it's just been a bad season.

Unclebuck
03-07-2005, 08:08 AM
Peck, I agree with your post. The sad thing is Dale Davis who just signed is probably the Pacers 3rd best player who is currently available to play.

I'm getting tired of all the 3 pointers also, and they tried to post up Jax a little and tried to get Fred to drive more, but seemed to me the Lakers defense was really packing it in. They did not defend the 3 pt line very well at all, Pacers had tons of wide open shots, but they could not hit very many.

Glad you were the one who mentioend that Brad is injured again, although I have no idea what the injury is.

Since you thought Jeff did OK, I need to say that I thought he played a poor game, ever since his back injury I don't think he's looked good at all. But I suppose my expectations are higher than yours.


I just hate not having any inside offensive game

Peck, that play drove me crazy too, looked like the Pacers had a fast break and next thing all of a sudden everything stopped at the three point line

We all need to face the facts this current team will struggle to be .500.

Your point about Jax is a good one, yes he was selfish and yet he can hit tough shots and last night it was not like anyone else was hitting anything. Jax reminds me so much of Jalen, extremely streaky and can get a decent shot anytime he wants, and when he is on a roll, he is almost unstoppable because of his size.

I do have worries about how Artest and Jax will play together, they both like to have the ball and they like to take a lot of shots.

Roy Munson
03-07-2005, 11:30 AM
I do have worries about how Artest and Jax will play together, they both like to have the ball and they like to take a lot of shots.

I've thought the exact same thing. I'm sure Pacer mgmnt has had the same thoughts. It will be interesting to see how they handle it. It wouldn't shock me if one or the other was moved in the off-season.

There's probably a list somewhere in the Pacers' office of Pros and Cons of trading Artest. On the Cons side is the item that says "He's our best player", "We went from a great team to an average team without him", things like that.

On the Pros side, there are things like "He has high trade value", "He has been very unstable", "He wants the ball too much and might be incompatible with SJax on the floor".

It will make for a most interesting off-season.

able
03-07-2005, 11:40 AM
It was never meant to be the two of them in a starting line-up and it will not occur next year.
I anything is proven (IMO) it is that Jax is not starter material on a full fit Pacers team.

(BTW as for Brad injury :
Kings' players hurting

Brad Miller and Cuttino Mobley missed the Kings' game against Detroit because of injuries.

Miller, averaging 15.6 points, 9.3 rebounds and 3.9 assists this season, sat out his fourth straight game with a bruised right calf. His absence left 6-9 Brian Skinner as the Kings' starting center.

Mobley, who has a lower back strain, has averaged 17.8 points per game since joining the Kings in January. Maurice Evans replaced him in the starting lineup.

back to Jax, he was meant ot come of the bench, and I still think that is where he fits best, it means that he has no "rights" to as many shots he takes now, if Reggie indeed retires then chances are Fred moves into tweener PG/SG whlie JT will be the main PG.
Putting 5 players on the floor of as our starters next year, assuming Ron stays will e an interesting feat:

JO/Ron/Mel are sure starters, with Reggie out, who replaces him and for the bonus question: who do we start at C: Hulk, Polly, Jeff, Cro, DD (who has proven his value beyond a doubt already) ?

for SG, Jax, Freddie, JJ, AJ are all candidates.

mixing tjhe starting 5 with the bench will be the hardest job next year, providing no changes.

Unclebuck
03-07-2005, 11:49 AM
I agree that it would probably be better for Jax to come off the bench, although I would expect Jax and Ron to be on the floor at the end of games. But to have Jax as the main scorer with the second unit would be the best idea. However who starts at the shooting guard?



Roy, not sure you meant it the way I am taking it, but here is what you posted.

......."On the Pros side, there are things like "He has high trade value", "He has been very unstable", "He wants the ball too much and might be incompatible with SJax on the floor"......


Did you mean to post that Artest has high trade value? I could be wrong but I think Ron's trade value has started to rise and will be high this summer. Not as high as it should be, but I think many teams will try to get him.

Bball
03-07-2005, 12:01 PM
Brad Miller has a bruised right calf. If that is anything like the 'bruises' the Pacers have suffered it could be a career ending injury.

Peck... excellent point about what seems to be a double standard for some Pacer fans (and management).
Brad Miller: "Can't stay healthy. Good riddance"
Jaamal Tinsley "We need him back on the court in the worst way!"
Jonathon Bender "We just need to give him more time to heal. He'll be unstoppable... one of these days"
Yadda Yadda Yadda...

-Bball

Roy Munson
03-07-2005, 12:02 PM
Roy, not sure you meant it the way I am taking it, but here is what you posted.

......."On the Pros side, there are things like "He has high trade value", "He has been very unstable", "He wants the ball too much and might be incompatible with SJax on the floor"......


Did you mean to post that Artest has high trade value? I could be wrong but I think Ron's trade value has started to rise and will be high this summer. Not as high as it should be, but I think many teams will try to get him.

Yes, I meant to say Artest has high trade value. I think that GMs around the league see how far the Pacers have fallen without him. I imagine that more than one of them would be thinking..."gee, if he's the difference between the Pacers going 41-41 and 61-21, just think what he could do for OUR team...".

I think that if the Pacers shop him this summer he will attract more attention than he did last summer.

PacerMan
03-07-2005, 12:18 PM
The entire game was defined by one play, I'm pretty sure it was in the 3rd quarter. Reggie Miller had the ball running what looked like a 4 on 2 fast break which should have at worst come away with a foul.

But while dribbling Reggie pulls up at the three point line, the big problem with that? So did the other three players. Fred Jones, Stephen Jackson & James Jones all pulled up & stopped at the three point line. While L.A. regouped & caught up with numbers.

I will die wondering why our team, especially Reggie, is always so willing to just heave up three pointers.

I don't know exactly how many we shot last night, but it was way to many.

Why we did not drive the ball & cram it down their throats every play I will never know. Who on their team were we afraid of? I realize you are not always going to get up a shot in traffic but the three is much more effectivem, not to mention open, if you collapse the defense.

On defense we had stretches where I thought we played great & then on other occasions where I thought we struggled. But again we lost the game on the offensive end of the court because we could not/would not execute any play that didn't start with looking for a three.

Yes, I know we have no post up player. But you don't have to have a post up offense to just not take three's. Ball movement & player movement & CUTTING to the basket will sometimes make up for a lack of a post up game.

I thought Fred did well in his second attempt at the p.g. spot. I want to see him play this some more this season to maybe look at this as something for future player movements. I'm not saying I wouldn't rather have Jamaal, but I am getting awfully tired of him not playing. Yes, yes I know I'm an @ss because his foot is hurt. But how many games has the guy missed this season? They keep talking like he was injured on 1/31 & has been missing since. When in reality, yes he was injured then, but wasn't he missing like 2-3 weeks prior to that with a resp. infection & before that with his ankles (or something).

You can be Michael Jordan but if you can't play over half the games a year you are of no use to the team.

If Fred can prove he can hold down the spot, Jamaal may be expendable. I'm saying this & I'm the one who said he was the best p.g. in the NBA. But this is getting old.

I thought Jackson played a little selfish last night. Maybe he needs to? I don't know, it's not my preferance but that may be his mandate at this time.

I've given Reggie the promise of no complaining since he is retireing & in that mode let me say that Reggie had on nice shoes.

Dale was great again. But listening to me talk about Dale is worse than listening to U.B. talk about Artest, so feel free to overlook this. But I thought when he was on the floor he made the team look totally differant from the defensive end. He is going to have to go back to getting about 10 ppg. again as well I think if we have any hope of making anything of this season.

Jeff did good while he played. I'm not certain as to why he didn't play a little more in the second half, but I think they were just looking for any kind of offense they could get & Dale is already showing even at his advanced age that he is capable of manning the entire middle on defense better than anybody we have. But don't take that as a slam at Jeff, he did fine. I thought he did decent vs. Odom.

Cro played ok. Nothing great but nothing horrid either other than his hair & his dribbling (My God is he getting worse at dribbling as he gets older or is it just my imaination)

James Jones provided a warm body. He did decent on defense but we need more Offense from our small forward spot.

A.J. did ok, for a backup two guard.

Gill was non-consequintal & that's not really a good thing.

Harrison at least didn't foul out.

Pollard didn't really distinguish himself in any way.

At the end of the day we had a guy who just signed with the team less than 4 days ago, a small forward who should be the backup shooting guard, a shooting guard who is getting legacy starts, a point guard who should be the backup to the backup shooting guard starting for us. Do you really think we have many chances with this? You can win but you almost have to play error free ball & you cannot dig a hole, which we often do.

The season is not over, but the red lights better be flashing because as of now we are out of the playoffs. Because a tie with Philly is really a loss because they own the season series vs. us

BTW, am I the only one p!ssed that there is some super top seceret deal with Jamaal's injury? Why won't the Pacers or Jamaal just come out & say what it is? Why the big seceret?


you are incredibly impatient to even CONSIDER dumping Jamaal at this point.

PacerMan
03-07-2005, 12:21 PM
Yes, I meant to say Artest has high trade value. I think that GMs around the league see how far the Pacers have fallen without him. I imagine that more than one of them would be thinking..."gee, if he's the difference between the Pacers going 41-41 and 61-21, just think what he could do for OUR team...".

I think that if the Pacers shop him this summer he will attract more attention than he did last summer.


No GM would be uh, silly enough to think that was the ONLY difference between last year and this.
Only Pacers fans...........

able
03-07-2005, 12:23 PM
Brad Miller has a bruised right calf. If that is anything like the 'bruises' the Pacers have suffered it could be a career ending injury.

Peck... excellent point about what seems to be a double standard for some Pacer fans (and management).
Brad Miller: "Can't stay healthy. Good riddance"
Jaamal Tinsley "We need him back on the court in the worst way!"
Jonathon Bender "We just need to give him more time to heal. He'll be unstoppable... one of these days"
Yadda Yadda Yadda...

-Bball

Brad's injury, what can one say, we nearing the end of the season, it's time.
JB, not a far comparison, one way or the other, no one EVER considered it to be something that would go so badly wrong.
Mel? Brad? different stratosphere if you want to compare money on the contracts, hardly a decent comparison.

But since we are willing to dump all players injured, more or less frequently, does this mean we keep Ron? oh no I forgot, he's mentally injured.

SO if I understand your sentiments correct: trade Mel, Ron, JO, JB, anyone else ?

That's a decent starting 4 you're throwing to the pack there, wouldn't surprise me one bit if they were the anchor (at least 3 of them) to a championship team :D

PacerMan
03-07-2005, 12:25 PM
Do you guys think that any of you could survive an 82 game NBA season without being injured? Do you WATCH what goes on?
It's a miracle that ANY player that plays 30 minutes a game makes it through a whole season uninjured.
Have we been unlucky lately?
Yep
So what. Injuries, including season ending ones, are part of the game. LOTS of teams have lost shots at the title because a key player was lost. It's not new.
It's not just us.
Get over it.

Bball
03-07-2005, 12:42 PM
SO if I understand your sentiments correct: trade Mel, Ron, JO, JB, anyone else ?


My sentiments were pointing out the double standard that you have so 'abley' demonstrated. ;)


Brad's injury, what can one say, we nearing the end of the season, it's time.
JB, not a far comparison, one way or the other, no one EVER considered it to be something that would go so badly wrong.
Mel? Brad? different stratosphere if you want to compare money on the contracts, hardly a decent comparison.

You have just covered the double standard in a nutshell.

-Bball

able
03-07-2005, 12:46 PM
My sentiments were pointing out the double standard that you have so 'abley' demonstrated. ;)



You have just covered the double standard in a nutshell.

-Bball
Where on earth is the double standard between a contract worth 30 million dollars and one worth 80 million dollars?
Thats no double standard that's economy.
Do you really think anyone would have given JB an extension the size he had if they had foreseen this debacle, no way.

If you fail to see the difference between what Mel makes and what Brad makes, while both being indispendable and injury prone, then please let me have 10% of the difference and I will kow tow to your wisdom every day

Bball
03-07-2005, 12:57 PM
Where on earth is the double standard between a contract worth 30 million dollars and one worth 80 million dollars?
Thats no double standard that's economy.
Do you really think anyone would have given JB an extension the size he had if they had foreseen this debacle, no way.

If you fail to see the difference between what Mel makes and what Brad makes, while both being indispendable and injury prone, then please let me have 10% of the difference and I will kow tow to your wisdom every day

I dunno... I'm seeing the double standard in everything you are saying. You found a way to move Bender out of the discussion and make it between Tinsley and Brad which certainly changes the dynamic but I just can't sweep Bender aside like that. He fits perfectly into the comparison.

We can take management out of the discussion since it is the fans who seem to really run with this double standard the most.

-Bball

Suaveness
03-07-2005, 12:57 PM
So I am getting to watch the games this week, and I just could not watch this game. Every time we go down the court, it is jumper after jumper after 3 pointer. It was driving me crazy. I know there isn't a post player, but COME ON, just TRY and go into the lane. Freddy did at least a few times, but no one else even tried that much. I mean, we could have even tried to get Harrison involved in the offense, he has some post game. But man, it was really pissing me off watching this. The lakers didn't even play that great, but we couldn't hit anything. Soooo many jumpers

Kegboy
03-07-2005, 01:17 PM
Well, I didn't watch the game, so I have a question for all of you. We let the opposing team score over 100 points, and everyone's complaining about our offense?? With Freddie, Jack, Jeff, and Dale starting, I'd think we shouldn't let any team score 100 points. :shrug:

Unclebuck
03-07-2005, 01:49 PM
Well, I didn't watch the game, so I have a question for all of you. We let the opposing team score over 100 points, and everyone's complaining about our offense?? With Freddie, Jack, Jeff, and Dale starting, I'd think we shouldn't let any team score 100 points. :shrug:



You didn't watch the game ?

Well the poor defense started with the poor shot selection, every long rebound worked as a great outlet pass. KB, you know me I am defense all the time, but I think the offense was more of a problem in the Laker game. There were many times when the Pacers big guys were just running from free throw line to free throw ine because of the quick long shots the Pacers were taking.

Peck
03-07-2005, 01:57 PM
Part of a good defense is a good offense.

We have to many times where we will have 3-4 min. draughts without hitting a fieldgoal & since we weren't driving or anything then we weren't getting to the foul line.

You are not going to stop teams from scoring everytime all you can hope to do is make it difficult for them. Several of the Lakers shots were contested & that's about as much as you can hope for. Of course they have two slashers who draw fouls so there were several "and 1" type scenarios.

The lack of any real offensive flow really killed us in the first half & we had to dig out of a big hole to get as close as we did.

To the Pacers credit they did make a game of it in the fourth quarter, but it was to big of a mountain to climb.

In all honesty witht he players we have available I guess being competative is about as good as we can hope for.

Grant
03-07-2005, 02:02 PM
I think the Pacers are just having a rough year. Bad Luck, a Curse, whatever.

Is there a single player on the team that is having a good year? Everybody seems to have had a tough time and its not all their fault.

Tinsley - He's had a lot of injuries. In his first three years, he didn't seem to get injured that much. He missed time last year because he was benched but this is the first year that he's gotten bitten by the injury bug (last year's playoffs notwithstanding) AJ has not capitalized on the opportunity and just proves how much the Pacer's need Tinsley. Gill is just a guy

Reggie can still light it up - once every 10 or 15 games. His skills are just declining. Not his fault. It used to be that he could turn it on when necessary and now the spirit is willing, but.... Fred is Fred. I hoped under the circumstances he would take another step forward and his outside shooting is better. Maybe the most consistent player this year.

Bender <fill in="" your="" own="" joke="" here="">*Insert your own joke here* I've been a Bender Believer. Now I'm just a Bender Hoper. Jackson Brawl wasn't a good first impression. Artest = Frustrating. Can't live with him, can't win without him

O'Neal Will miss as many games from injury as he did from the suspension by the time this is over. Croshere Rollercoaster ride again this year.

Pollard, Harrison, Foster Injuries, injuries, and more injuries. The guy that was knocked senseless and missed 2 weeks by a routine elbow to the chin is the durable guy in the group.

I'm as frustrated as the next guy, but its tough to evaluate a team that has had so many different pieces missing throughout the year. Just hope that we get healthy going down the stretch. And then hope that Artest comes back....soon.

Repeat with me.....

It's not how you start it's how you finish...
</fill>
It's not how you start it's how you finish...

It's not how you start it's how you finish...

Eindar
03-07-2005, 02:07 PM
I dunno... I'm seeing the double standard in everything you are saying. You found a way to move Bender out of the discussion and make it between Tinsley and Brad which certainly changes the dynamic but I just can't sweep Bender aside like that. He fits perfectly into the comparison.

We can take management out of the discussion since it is the fans who seem to really run with this double standard the most.

-Bball

You want a comparison of JB and Brad Miller? Fine.

Both are injury prone. Brad's injuries always come with about a month left in the regular season, so he's almost always worthless in the playoffs, because he's nursing some sort of nagging injury that keeps him from shooting or rebounding. JB usually gets some sort of leg injury that keeps him off the court for most of the season. For the team shooting for a title, does it matter whether you screw your team all season long or just in the playoffs? I don't think it matters, personally, and again, Brad makes more money even than JB.

There's another angle on this however. JB's injuries are a result of a combination of bad luck and bad skeletal structure. There's literally nothing he could have done different over the past 5 years to prevent these injuries. For Brad Miller, on the other hand, has had his body just break down on him most years, and I would guess that's due to a lack of proper off-season conditioning and weight training. Could you imagine what he'd be like if he had the same body fat % as JO?

For me, I suppose the argument is lazy vs. cursed. If you're content to have a good team that never wins a championship, Brad Miller is your guy. JB is the kind of guy that could help bring home a ring, if he ever got healthy.

ChicagoJ
03-07-2005, 02:15 PM
Repeat with me.....

It's not how you start it's how you finish...
</FILL>
It's not how you start it's how you finish...

It's not how you start it's how you finish...

I won't have time to do this for a few days, but I'm going to write a thread entitled, "This team is built for the regular season [not the playoffs]"

:banghead:

Bball
03-07-2005, 04:02 PM
You want a comparison of JB and Brad Miller? Fine.

Both are injury prone. Brad's injuries always come with about a month left in the regular season, so he's almost always worthless in the playoffs, because he's nursing some sort of nagging injury that keeps him from shooting or rebounding. JB usually gets some sort of leg injury that keeps him off the court for most of the season. For the team shooting for a title, does it matter whether you screw your team all season long or just in the playoffs? I don't think it matters, personally, and again, Brad makes more money even than JB.

There's another angle on this however. JB's injuries are a result of a combination of bad luck and bad skeletal structure. There's literally nothing he could have done different over the past 5 years to prevent these injuries. For Brad Miller, on the other hand, has had his body just break down on him most years, and I would guess that's due to a lack of proper off-season conditioning and weight training. Could you imagine what he'd be like if he had the same body fat % as JO?

For this part of the discussion I think you were missing my point. I'm not looking to compare Miller and anyone else. The point was how a percentage of the forum wants to make cracks about BMiller being injury prone and rejoice that he is gone... while not holding other Pacer players to the same standard.



For me, I suppose the argument is lazy vs. cursed. If you're content to have a good team that never wins a championship, Brad Miller is your guy. JB is the kind of guy that could help bring home a ring, if he ever got healthy.

I disagree about JB. A healthy JB is a career 6th man at best with the potential to be a defensive liability making him a 50/50 proposition whether he is a net gain or not. Healthy or not the hype didn't pan out.

....of course I could be wrong...

-Bball

McKeyFan
03-07-2005, 04:06 PM
Unrelated kind of, but did anybody see Caron Butler drive the middle and run into Hulk? He just stopped dead in his tracks and fell backwards on the floor. Hulk didn't move, so they didn't call a charge. Butler looked like an idiot so they couldn't call a foul on Harrison.

Just a very hilarious no call.

indygeezer
03-07-2005, 06:13 PM
Jonathon Bender "We just need to give him more time to heal. He'll be unstoppable... one of these days"


OK OK...I've backed off...OK? But he IS still VERY young. YA wanna see him pull a Grant Hill recovery elsewhere?


Speaking of Grant...you m,ade some good comments there buddy. But yer way off on Tinsley...he's hurt EVERY year. Great starter and then "hit the wall" and get hurt.

I Liked these tho..."Jackson Brawl wasn't a good first impression. Artest = Frustrating. Can't live with him, can't win without him." TRUE, Too true.

3ptmiller
03-07-2005, 06:15 PM
We just suck dude :rolleyes: fair n simple :(

Bball
03-07-2005, 06:17 PM
Jonathon Bender "We just need to give him more time to heal. He'll be unstoppable... one of these days"


OK OK...I've backed off...OK? But he IS still VERY young. YA wanna see him pull a Grant Hill recovery elsewhere?


Honestly, yes... Let him pull off a Grant Hill recovery elsewhere. I'd be very happy for him.

Of course the downside is that even when healthy I don't think Bender brings that much to the game... and the 'waiting game' we are playing now is one big distraction. This is a team that can't afford to waste roster spots on 'potential' yet we are. I don't think Bender will ever be half the player Grant Hill is.


-Bball

_PD_
03-07-2005, 06:58 PM
I watched the first 3 possessions, all missed 3-pointers, and decided to watch Leave it to Beaver instead. Beaver's pigeons died while he had the chicken pox. Larry and Whitey came over to perform a funeral. Infinitely more interesting than watching Reggie shoot 1 for 8. I can't say anything about the D, guess there wasn't any.

Peck
03-07-2005, 07:54 PM
Ok, this is for the Bender supporters.

I have an honest question & I'm not trying to be an @ss with it.

Let's, for the sake of my question, assume that Bender becomes every single thing you hope he can be. I assume you mean he will be a 20 point scorer with about 2 blocks a game. You can say he will get 6 rebounds a game & that is as much as I'm ever going to beleive.

Let's assume that he will be all of this.

Where does he play for the Indiana Pacers?

Are you going to trade Artest? Do you think that Bender will play alongside O'Neal?

You see my problem is for one I don't believe or see this greatness you all do. He is athletic, that's it, IMO.

But even if I did see it how do you think that three 20 point scorers in the front court is going to work? O'Neal complains about Foster now & Foster is friggin Shaq compared to Bender when it comes up to body up defense, do you think he will be happy having to guard every single post player.

I think that some of you need to be honest with yourselves & get past this "remember what Jermaine did here after so many years in the league" & keep expecting it from Bender.

Let's never forget one thing, Jermaine had to get away from Portland to do this. Bender may be the same way, he may have leave Indiana. We may just have to come to the understanding that he may explode somewhere else & we may just have to be ok with it. Because honestly how is he ever going to do that here?

NotLosingButWinning
03-07-2005, 08:46 PM
But even if I did see it how do you think that three 20 point scorers in the front court is going to work? O'Neal complains about Foster now & Foster is friggin Shaq compared to Bender when it comes up to body up defense, do you think he will be happy having to guard every single post player.


when does/did j.o. complain about foster?

skyfire
03-07-2005, 09:19 PM
Ok, this is for the Bender supporters.

Where does he play for the Indiana Pacers?

Are you going to trade Artest? Do you think that Bender will play alongside O'Neal?

I cant see Bender ever becoming a starter for the Pacers while JO and Ronnie are here. If he lived upto his potential and stayed healthy then I'd be happy if he had something vaguely resembling Al's role from last season. Scoring off the bench as a SF/PF.

Kegboy
03-07-2005, 10:12 PM
But Peck, you were just implying a couple days ago that we're a better team when JO doesn't play. So, if Johnny ever reaches his potential, we can trade Jermaine to pave the way for Bender to *eh'em*..."revolutionize the power forward position".

:happydanc

Unclebuck
03-07-2005, 10:21 PM
As one of Bender's biggest supporters, it pains me to say that the ship has sailed. He has had too many injuries to be anywhere near the player I think was destined to be. He will never be healthy enough to be an NBA player. In two years I expect him to be out of the NBA altogether

So Peck your question is moot.

However, I'll go to my gave believing that is Bender could have been healthy he would have been quite a player, an allstar player

Kegboy
03-07-2005, 10:25 PM
As one of Bender's biggest supporters, it pains me to say that the ship has sailed. He has had too many injuries to be anywhere near the player I think was destined to be. He will never be healthy enough to be an NBA player. In two years I expect him to be out of the NBA altogether

So Peck your question is moot.

However, I'll go to my gave believing that is Bender could have been healthy he would have been quite a player, an allstar player

Traitor!!! :mad:

Come on Buck, he's 23!! Plenty of time for medical science to perfect knee transplants.

Unclebuck
03-07-2005, 10:33 PM
Traitor!!! :mad:

Come on Buck, he's 23!! Plenty of time for medical science to perfect knee transplants.



He's 24 years old as of January 31st

Kegboy, I sense you are kidding.

I was 100% on the Bender bandwagon until about 6 weeks ago. When he played for a few games he had lost the athleticism that made him a "special player" And then when I read what the injury is how his knee is out of alignment with his hamstring or whatever it is, that won't be corrected.

Bender is physically incapable of playing NBA basketball

abington
03-07-2005, 11:16 PM
I think the Pacers are just having a rough year. Bad Luck, a Curse, whatever.

Is there a single player on the team that is having a good year? Everybody seems to have had a tough time and its not all their fault.

Tinsley - He's had a lot of injuries. In his first three years, he didn't seem to get injured that much. He missed time last year because he was benched but this is the first year that he's gotten bitten by the injury bug (last year's playoffs notwithstanding) AJ has not capitalized on the opportunity and just proves how much the Pacer's need Tinsley. Gill is just a guy

Reggie can still light it up - once every 10 or 15 games. His skills are just declining. Not his fault. It used to be that he could turn it on when necessary and now the spirit is willing, but.... Fred is Fred. I hoped under the circumstances he would take another step forward and his outside shooting is better. Maybe the most consistent player this year.

Bender <fill in="" your="" own="" joke="" here="">*Insert your own joke here* I've been a Bender Believer. Now I'm just a Bender Hoper. Jackson Brawl wasn't a good first impression. Artest = Frustrating. Can't live with him, can't win without him

O'Neal Will miss as many games from injury as he did from the suspension by the time this is over. Croshere Rollercoaster ride again this year.

Pollard, Harrison, Foster Injuries, injuries, and more injuries. The guy that was knocked senseless and missed 2 weeks by a routine elbow to the chin is the durable guy in the group.

I'm as frustrated as the next guy, but its tough to evaluate a team that has had so many different pieces missing throughout the year. Just hope that we get healthy going down the stretch. And then hope that Artest comes back....soon.

Repeat with me.....

It's not how you start it's how you finish...
</fill>
It's not how you start it's how you finish...

It's not how you start it's how you finish...

good analysis! when this trainwreck of a season finally ends, i think the only good thing will be Fred's emergence as a legit NBA player.

Peck
03-08-2005, 12:15 AM
But Peck, you were just implying a couple days ago that we're a better team when JO doesn't play. So, if Johnny ever reaches his potential, we can trade Jermaine to pave the way for Bender to *eh'em*..."revolutionize the power forward position".

:happydanc

I did? I remember asking what the record was without him but that's about all I remember.

I don't deny for a min. though that this season has seemed like a step back for him in a lot of ways & not just because of the brawl. But then again maybe all of the turmoil has turned his world upside down?

I don't deny though that I have not been real happy with him for awhile now because to me he's kind of pulled a Jalen Rose on us. Not as bad a Jalen mind you, but in his mind him helping the team win means scoring more & defending less & grabbing less rebounds.

But I'm willing to hope that it is because the team has just had so many things go wrong.

Peck
03-08-2005, 12:29 AM
As one of Bender's biggest supporters, it pains me to say that the ship has sailed. He has had too many injuries to be anywhere near the player I think was destined to be. He will never be healthy enough to be an NBA player. In two years I expect him to be out of the NBA altogether

So Peck your question is moot.

However, I'll go to my gave believing that is Bender could have been healthy he would have been quite a player, an allstar player


Ok, my question is moot.

But for the sake of the question let's assume that it's not. Let's give him everything you think he could be (I'll deal with that in a min) where does he fit on the Pacers team.

A superstar 6th man? Or do you move J.O. to Center? Are you willing to give up Ron?

Where does this monster fit in to the front court with the other monsters we already have?

Ok, now let's deal with realities for a min. Bender has become the single greatest myth in basketball. The less he has played the greater he has become. The less the fans see him the greater they remember him being.

Let's start with the obvious.

1. He can shoot the long ball. Only Reggie probably has better range, I won't deny that.

2. He can dunk. Without a doubt the man can dunk the ball.

3. He can block shots. Probably would pass J.O. for blocks a game if he played the same kind of min.

4. Had a decent mid-range game. Not great mind you & he could not dribble (although he's not as bad as Croshere has become) but if he recieved the ball in the right spot on the floor he could get off his shot with no problem.

Ok that's it. Now granted that's enough to make a decent NBA career, but by no means is that the basis for all-star play without other fundementally solid skills. By which, he has none.

The next pick he ever sets will be his first. I bet you could break him down off of the dribble away from the basket & Jeff Foster is a virtual wall compared to Jon in the post.

Look I'm the jackass who said that he could (I want it known I said COULD) revolutionalize the pf spot. But he never showed the basics skills of the game since then.

Believe me I understand your infatuation with Artest. As I've told you over & over if it weren't for his mental problems he would firmly be my second favorite Pacer (no way will he pass Dale) so even though I don't understan your acceptance of his bad behavior I certainly understand your fasination with his game.

But Bender??? Man, you love defense (or at least a version of it) so how in the name of God can you even stomach Bender????? I'll never know.

Then I remember, oh yeah you used to like Jalen to. ;)

Ok, enough of my postulating.

Back to the question. Where would a healthy Bender fit on this team?

Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 07:37 AM
Peck, a healthy Bender would be so good that Rick would have to play him 30 minutes a game. Where I don't know. I'm saying this a little tongue in cheek. Not sure where he would have found minutes, likely from Croshere, a little from Jeff and he would also get some of the backup small forward minutes.

Peck, let me assure you my opinions of Bender have nothing to do with "myth", stories of great practices or any other hype. I base my opinions of him by what I've seen in the games.

Grant
03-08-2005, 08:36 AM
I think Bender could have filled the role of Harrington. Somehow Al got 30 minutes a game last year. He would be the primary backup at SF and PF. Part of it is sliding O'neal to center depending on matchups. And moving SJax to the 2. Without Reggie, there is room at SG for both Jackson and Freddie.

And back to Tinsley for a minute. My memory is foggy on his injury history:

He played:

Year 1: 80 games (no injuries that I know of)
Year 2: 73 games (Missed 9 games...not sure why)
Year 3: 52 games (Was benched for a lot of games....injured in playoffs)
Year 4 (The cursed year): 40 of 59 so far.

I don't remember any injuries before this year, except for the problems in the playoffs last year.

grace
03-08-2005, 08:47 AM
As one of Bender's biggest supporters, it pains me to say that the ship has sailed. He has had too many injuries to be anywhere near the player I think was destined to be. He will never be healthy enough to be an NBA player. In two years I expect him to be out of the NBA altogether

So Peck your question is moot.

However, I'll go to my gave believing that is Bender could have been healthy he would have been quite a player, an allstar player

I choose to look at JB's situation like this: look how long it took Grant Hill to come back from an injury.

Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 08:57 AM
I think Bender could have filled the role of Harrington. Somehow Al got 30 minutes a game last year. He would be the primary backup at SF and PF. Part of it is sliding O'neal to center depending on matchups. And moving SJax to the 2. Without Reggie, there is room at SG for both Jackson and Freddie.

And back to Tinsley for a minute. My memory is foggy on his injury history:

He played:

Year 1: 80 games (no injuries that I know of)
Year 2: 73 games (Missed 9 games...not sure why)
Year 3: 52 games (Was benched for a lot of games....injured in playoffs)
Year 4 (The cursed year): 40 of 59 so far.

I don't remember any injuries before this year, except for the problems in the playoffs last year.


Year 1. he injured his ankle either in game 1 or 2 of the playoff series agaisnt the Nets. I don't believe he played in game 5 and very little in game 4.

Year 2. He was injured during the first round series with the Celtics. I don't remember what the injury was or when he sustained it. But that was the year when his mom died and he gained a lot of weight during the season.

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 09:35 AM
Just to recap: Ron Mercer :shudder: played a lot of PG during the Nets series because Tinsley was injured.