PDA

View Full Version : It really hit me today



Shade
12-25-2004, 09:37 PM
I know I'm going to sound like UB, but here goes.

I know it's not fair to think this until Jack, Polly, Bender, etc. are back, but the absence of Ron really hit me today. I couldn't help but think that we would have won fairly easily today, even without the others, if Ronnie were there today. I'm beginning to lean toward the "we can't win a championship without Ron" side.

P.S. Miami is a legit threat. Right now, they're the best team in the East.

Kstat
12-25-2004, 09:39 PM
when the Heat beat the Pistons sometime this decade, i'll admit theyre better.

As it is, I can't remember the last time theyve beaten us. They'll get another chance before new year's.

ReGgieMiLLeR31
12-25-2004, 09:48 PM
Shade, Ron's absense is hurting us a lot...I hope somehow we can appeal to the Board of Governors and get him back come playoff time...

Shade
12-25-2004, 09:52 PM
when the Heat beat the Pistons sometime this decade, i'll admit theyre better.

As it is, I can't remember the last time theyve beaten us. They'll get another chance before new year's.
You know, I'm beginning to think that the Pistons' problem is that they're just lazy. They haven't been able to hit anything for several games now, and they got hot (as I knew they would) today...ON THE ROAD.

I still think with Ronnie, we take the Pistons out. With Jack in Ron's place? Who knows. I don't feel nearly as confident about that, but if Reggie continues to play well (he had another nice game today, btw), and Jack can step up and at least fill Ron's void on offense, we've got a chance. I'd like to think that our missing players could have made up the 6 points we needed to win today.

P.S. The Pistons KILLED us on the offensive boards. We need to negate that RIGHT NOW.

Unclebuck
12-25-2004, 09:52 PM
Shade, obviously I agree with you. The Pacers team was built around J.O and Artest and if either one is not there, the team does not work as constituted.

Kstat
12-25-2004, 09:57 PM
well, if you look back over the last 9 games since the pistons aquired sheed, JO's numbers vs the Pistons have dropped like a ROCK.

With Sheed we can deal with any dominant big man in the NBA, defensively. JO's a great player, but he's no different. He's not going to win a series without some help.

Also, when people say that the Pistons really miss Corliss Williamson, they don't know what they're talking about. McDyess is so much a better fit. We DO miss Mehmet Okur, but hopefully Campbell can get healthy again and replace his scoring at the C spot.

Hicks
12-25-2004, 10:22 PM
One things to be hopeful about is that we were out rebounded and Jackson had some 10 rebound games.

Hicks
12-25-2004, 10:34 PM
Wait for Jax.

FiestyFosterFanatic
12-25-2004, 10:39 PM
I would really like to see what the team looks like w/o Artest, and with Jackson back. Before we make any moves on Artest, lets wait and see how Jackson plays at the SF spot with Reggie at the SG spot.

Big Smooth
12-25-2004, 10:48 PM
With both SJax and JO back in the lineup, I believe the Pacers can contend for the championship. That is not to say Artest is not important but I firmly believe with the depth of talent the Pacers have collected that with a full squad (minus Artest) they can get it done. We did beat the TWolves at Target Center with a full squard minus Artest earlier in the season.

Even with both JO and SJax back in the lineup, it will take some time for the team to re-adjust to their presence. But I promise you this - come April the Indiana Pacers will NOT be a team that anybody in the East will want to face in the playoffs.

Hicks
12-25-2004, 11:01 PM
I am, but man is it painfull
Yes, it is. 16 down 14 to go. :(

Hicks
12-25-2004, 11:03 PM
You know who else we missed today? Pollard. I remember having private conversations about this back before his back caused him to sit. He and Jeff are similar, but the biggest difference to me is Pollard is going to get you a lot of defensive rebounds, and Jeff is going to get you a lot of offensive rebounds. We REALLY needed more defensive rebounds today. He might have helped.

Unclebuck
12-25-2004, 11:08 PM
Without Ronnie, the Pacers will need each and everyone of their other players, Bender and Pollard included healthy and playing well to beat the Pistons or the heat in a 7 game series

Kstat
12-25-2004, 11:08 PM
As for myself, every DAY I miss Carlos Delfino. He's SUCH an important piece of the bench, because he creates %80 of the offense in our 2nd-unit. I'd really like to see how he plays guys like Freddie and James Jones.

ALso keep in mind, Frank Williams will more than likely be a Piston one week from today. I hope he brings more stability to our backup PG spot, but you can never tell with new players.....I like his game a TOn though.

abington
12-25-2004, 11:08 PM
i also felt the lost for the first time today. maybe bender. maybe jackson. probably not. its still early, though.

PacerMan
12-25-2004, 11:09 PM
I know I'm going to sound like UB, but here goes.

I know it's not fair to think this until Jack, Polly, Bender, etc. are back, but the absence of Ron really hit me today. I couldn't help but think that we would have won fairly easily today, even without the others, if Ronnie were there today. I'm beginning to lean toward the "we can't win a championship without Ron" side.

P.S. Miami is a legit threat. Right now, they're the best team in the East.

You're right, it's not fair to think that until those guys are back, and we come up short.

shags
12-25-2004, 11:44 PM
As for myself, every DAY I miss Carlos Delfino. He's SUCH an important piece of the bench, because he creates %80 of the offense in our 2nd-unit. I'd really like to see how he plays guys like Freddie and James Jones.

ALso keep in mind, Frank Williams will more than likely be a Piston one week from today. I hope he brings more stability to our backup PG spot, but you can never tell with new players.....I like his game a TOn though.

Kstat, I read a blip from a Chicago Tribune article that said the Williams-Parker deal is essentially dead. And Hunter played very well today, even if he didn't score. If Delfino can play consistent, he would provide that other scorer the Pistons desperately need off the bench.

Hopefully the Pistons and Pacers play in the playoffs. Rivalries are good for sports, and this was a great rivalry game. It reminded me of the intensity of a playoff game.

Bball
12-25-2004, 11:48 PM
Folks... can we give up the hope of Bender coming back and making any kind of difference? How many times does the guy have to let us down before we can all just let it go....

If our hopes this season rely on Bender then I am going to start getting VERY depressed.

That Matt Goukas article is weighing heavily on my mind as well as the fact that losing breeds losing.... and we are not winning the games we should... and with JO back we lost yet another game and are on the wrong side of .500 now.



-Bball

Kegboy
12-26-2004, 12:16 AM
Well, that's the problem, I truly believe that JB is the only one who can save us.

And yes, I'll freely admit, that's depressing, because his knees just don't want to cooperate. But I don't think Jack and Fred make up for Ronnie. I don't know, maybe there's more to Jack's game then the little we've obviously seen this year, but I really don't see him being a difference maker. There's a big difference between being the second option as opposed to the third.

SoupIsGood
12-26-2004, 12:27 AM
You know, I still remember watching San Antonio's run to the title a couple years back, and I remember thinking that this Jackson fellow, IMO, put them over them top. His energy, clutch shooting, and "intangibles" I suppose, (not sure how to explain it) impressed me. Now he is on the Pacers, and playing better than then, I am really counting on him making a big impact. I also remember he had a very big mouth. Like physically big, I bet he could swallow a watermelon.

I didn't see too many of the pacer games he has played however. Well, only bits and pieces of them.

kerosene
12-26-2004, 03:26 AM
Without Ron, this team could make a nice run in the playoffs, go deep even, but it's not a championship contender. Either Ron or a suitable replacement is needed.

JOneal7
12-26-2004, 03:34 AM
what team could beat us in the finals if we make it? Minny? I THINK NOT...JO VS KG WOULD BE AWESOME! Spurs? TD Vs Duncan...Tinsley Vs Parker...Manu Vs SJax...I like our chances! Kings? Give me a break...JO would kill webber. Tinsley Vs Bibby Would be awesome...Christie is NEVER A FACTOR...SJAX Vs Peja? what a fun matchup! I'm not giving up hope...

Unclebuck
12-26-2004, 08:52 AM
Without Ron, this team could make a nice run in the playoffs, go deep even, but it's not a championship contender. Either Ron or a suitable replacement is needed.



Your last sentence speaks volumes to me. "Either Ron or a suitable replacement is needed"

Is there a suitable replacement currently playing in the NBA. I am not talking about an available player, I am talking about any player in the league you want to name who could come in here and "replace Ronnie"

DisplacedKnick
12-26-2004, 09:16 AM
Well, that's the problem, I truly believe that JB is the only one who can save us.


Even if he was healthy he doesn't have the ability.

Peck
12-26-2004, 09:46 AM
Again I must come forward to state the obvious.

If what you guys are saying is true, which I don't beleive btw, then Jermaine O'Neal is the most overpaid player in the NBA. Maybe even the history of the NBA.

I know a max. player always needs a sidekick, but you guys aren't saying that. You are saying that it is Ron that needs the sidekick & if that is the case then J.O. is the most overpaid Robin in history.

Look, I don't deny for a min. the value of a sane/dedicated Ron Artest. However that is beyond our grasp right now.

If you think the team as it stands can't compete for a title then let's start talking about what needs to be done to get us one.

Myself, I'm comfortable in waiting on Jax to return.

But if you guys don't think that is the answer then tell me what to do & just saying without Ron a title can't be won is not an answer.

NBA titles have been won before without Ron Artest & I'm certain in the future that titles will be won again without Ron Artest.

Do you guys see a weakness at Sg? Sf? Pf? Pg? C? Bench play? Coaching? What?

DisplacedKnick
12-26-2004, 09:54 AM
Based on yesterday you need a better backup PG.

The same thing happened yesterday that used to happen with the Nets when he came in - the offense ground to a complete and utter halt. Now I haven't seen many Pacer games lately (in fact yesterday may be the first time I really had a chance to closely watch one this season without something distracting me - get the GF away to visit relatives) so it may have been a one-game anomaly, but I didn't get that sense from watching it.

I wouldn't be opposed to using Gill as backup PG for a while - at least he makes something happen.

Unclebuck
12-26-2004, 10:09 AM
Myself, I'm comfortable in waiting on Jax to return.

But if you guys don't think that is the answer then tell me what to do & just saying without Ron a title can't be won is not an answer.

NBA titles have been won before without Ron Artest & I'm certain in the future that titles will be won again without Ron Artest.

Do you guys see a weakness at Sg? Sf? Pf? Pg? C? Bench play? Coaching? What?


There is no doubt that titles have been won without Artest as he has never won a title before. But neither have the Pacers.

Are there weaknesses at certain positions, probably, but that is not how I analyze an NBA team, at least not a championship contender. Lakers had many weaknesses at certain positions and yet won 3 titles. The Spurs have weaknessess and yet won 2 titles and the Bulls had weaknesses and won 6 titles.

While there are many questions I ask myself, the one that is most important is this. Can the team score late in playoff games, can they get stops late in playoff games and can they get the necessary defensive rebounds late in playoff games. These questions assume the team is already one of the best in the league to begin with.

So whether the Pacers 8th man is better than the Pistons, Heat or Spurs 8th man means very little.

Back to my question, simply put the Pistons were able to do all three of those things in the ECF last season even though the pacers had Artest and I saw the same things yesterday.

One other thing, if Artest was as you put it Peck sane/dedicated, that does not mean the pacers would win the championship this season, but no one can successfully make the case that not having Artest will make the Pacers a better team.


However, we don't have any choice but to wait and see what the Pacers look like with Jax at small forward.

Keep in mind the Pacers have lost Artest and Harrington, can Jax and Fred replace those two guys, can Cro and Bender help replace those two guys. If they can then that puts the Pacers back to the level they were last season, but that was not good enough.


If Tinsley is healthy having a better backup point guard will not make any difference.

Peck
12-26-2004, 10:18 AM
Wow, U.B. you just typed a lot & I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Without Ron you think we can't win a title, but unless I just read you wrong then even if we had Ron we weren't able to beat the Pistons last year so my impression is you don't think we could again.

If I'm wrong correct me.

But if that is the way you feel, then how do we fix that?

BTW, it's not fair to mention the Bulls, Lakers or Spurs because each of those teams had the most dominate player in the N.B.A. on their team at the time.

Of course the Spurs didn't have the most dominate but they did have probably the second most dominate player & then a legend in the middle.

I'm assuming you don't think J.O. is among the true elite of the league?

able
12-26-2004, 10:27 AM
Jax was the supposed improvement for this year, and for a while it looked like we were a better team with him in the line-up even of the bench.

Now however he is no longer the upgrade over Al, which he clearly is, but he is supposed to replace Ron, which in all honesty I don't see him doing and Fred has to replace Al, again a long shot.

So from better then last year, at best we go to equal to last year which wasn't enough. I feel that is what UB is saying.

And to answer your question, without pretending to be UB, yes JO is undoubtedly one of the elite in this league, but that doesn't mean that in this day and age, where the supporting cast shows you need more then one supestar to win a title or at least 8 stars instead of 2 superstars.
We can still go a long way, but the sure shot it seemed to be at the beginning of the season sure has changed outlook.

What currently is most important is getting the plays back in place, get the roles defined again and make sure no meltdowns occur again.

We desperately need some of the injured back and we need Tins healthy, he's been playing major minutes and very few 100% healthy.

I am sure we will go 3 - 0 over the next week, then we need to gain momentum by beating one or two of the better teams on the road, if we can do that, then we will be looking good for the rest of the season, however it all depends on Polly's return and JB getting in some significant time, sad to say.

Unclebuck
12-26-2004, 10:29 AM
Wow, U.B. you just typed a lot & I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Without Ron you think we can't win a title, but unless I just read you wrong then even if we had Ron we weren't able to beat the Pistons last year so my impression is you don't think we could again.

If I'm wrong correct me.

But if that is the way you feel, then how do we fix that?

BTW, it's not fair to mention the Bulls, Lakers or Spurs because each of those teams had the most dominate player in the N.B.A. on their team at the time.

Of course the Spurs didn't have the most dominate but they did have probably the second most dominate player & then a legend in the middle.

I'm assuming you don't think J.O. is among the true elite of the league?

I am saying that with Artest the Pacers would have a much better chance of winning the championship. Without Artest they don't have nearly as good a chance. let's say they had a 20% chance of winning it all with Artest. Without him they might have a 5% chance.

I realize I am going to contradict myself here. But because of the early season injuries we don't know how good a lineup of Tinsley, Jax, Artest, Jeff and J.O can be. But that is the lineup that I believe is needed to beat the Pistons. At least for large portions of the game. I am rambling here.

J.O is very close to being an elite player in the league, but he is still not as good as TD, KG or Shaq, but then the Pistons don't have any of those players.

I am getting confused.

Kegboy
12-26-2004, 12:18 PM
Peck, I'm not dissing JO. I'm just saying that if you take any team's 2nd best player away from them, I find it very hard to believe they'll win a title.

Sure, they might be able to win the Finals series (LA without Kobe in '01, SA without Robinson in '99, Chicago without Pippen any of those last 3 titles all come to mind), but none of those teams would have made it out of their conference without their second best player. Yes, our depth is very good, but you're asking for a herculean performance from this team to not only make up for losing the reigning DPOY, but be better than with him. Unless you really do believe we played so well last year in spite of Ron, which some of you somehow seem to think. :shakehead

abington
12-26-2004, 06:58 PM
if we win a title, its going to be because bender finally becomes BENDER, because the addition of jackson does not offset the losses of artest and harrington.

themachotaco
12-26-2004, 08:17 PM
Just as much as we missed Ron yesterday, we missed ANY meaningful production from the 3 spot. James Jones just isn't there yet as a starting SF in the NBA. Yes he has had some nice scoring games over the last stretch, but he'll just as likely give you a disappearing act like he did vs. Detroit in which he has 3 points, 2 rb and gives up 18 to Prince. The lack of rebounding and defense from 1-2-3 just killed us... Tins and Reg combined for 0 rebounds. What Ron gave you in those two areas has not been consistently provided over this last stretch.

I know that James Jones isn't the only scapegoat at the 3 -- when he was out, Freddie and Reg played the wings, but both are playing out of position at the 3. Jackson will help I think.

In the meantime, I would love to see once Pollard gets back is to start
3 - Croshere - J Jones
4 - O'Neal - Pollard
5 - Foster - Harrison

At the least Cro is going to give you a more consistent effort on D and the boards. Plus he still stretches the floor (which is arguably one of the few reasons why JJ is out there) and can provide action off the drive. Maybe he loses a little on quickness, but with JO and Foster playing down low and helping on D.... well it might be a temp improvement over our current situation.

Anthem
12-26-2004, 09:16 PM
In the meantime, I would love to see once Pollard gets back is to start
3 - Croshere - J Jones
4 - O'Neal - Pollard
5 - Foster - Harrison

NO NO NO NO NO. Croshere no longer has the ability to play SF. You thought Prince scored too many against J.Jones? Try him against Croshere! I'd rather play Curry at the 3 than Croshere.

Besides, Bender will be back before Pollard.

Hicks
12-26-2004, 09:40 PM
I don't want to see Croshere at SF either.

pb777
12-26-2004, 09:52 PM
Cro will get burned at the 3, he is much more efective at the 4 b/c he can spread the opposing defense out. Pacers really have no choice starting JJ there until Jax or JB gets back. Fred is too small to play 3, Curry gives you little to no offense. Artest is the perfect fit for the 3 on this team.

Peck
12-27-2004, 02:57 AM
Wow I had totally forgotten that foul by Ron on Hamilton. Thanks Hicks.

BTW, again we need not be hypocritical here, Reggie Miller is one of the greatest floppers in the world. So, IMO, Rip is just following through.

However as we all know from watching Reggie over the years that sometimes you have to lay a real hit on him to get him to stop it. Neither Ron or Fred laid a real hit on him.

With the leage watching our every move on this what needs to be done will not be able to be done because they would probably revoke our franchise :rolleyes: .

So my best guess would be to fight fire with fire. Rip may be the best & you will never be able to take him out by making Reggie flop on him.

But Ben Wallace has proven that he can be prevoked. A few good "I've been shot with a gun" flops from Reggie vs. Big Ben might be the answer.

If not Ben then Rasheed.

If not Rasheed then Billups.