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Unclebuck
12-25-2004, 10:02 PM
I really, really, really wanted to win this game today.

As I entered Conseco Fieldhouse, I had a very strange feeling, maybe because it was 11:45 in the morning, maybe because it was Christmas, but more than anything it felt like a playoff game. The intensity, the anticipation, the overall feel was of a game #5 in the second round of the playoffs.

There were very few Pistons fans there which was a nice Christmas day gift, and thankfully I did not hear "Detroit Baskeballlll" once.

Not sure if ESPN or Channel 4 showed the pregame intros, but the roar for J.O was deafening, that was as loud of an introduction I have ever heard at Conseco. During the Pistons intro there were obviously boos, but I did not see or hear anything out of the ordinary.

As for the game itself, the Pistons played very well, and I felt it was the same type of game as the ECF a year ago. I said this 7 months ago and I'll say it again, the Pistons were able to get easier shots than the Pacers. Rip and Sheed got any shot they wanted and when they missed a shot they got the rebounds.

I really don't want to bring up who know who, but I have to. The point has been made that Artest is not that important when the Pacers play the Pistons. Afterall Prince is not a big scorer, and Ronnie had trouble scoring against Prince and the Wallaces. Balderdash, there were several times when Jeff and J.O were in there battling for rebounds, and the Pacers desparately needed Artest to help on the boards, he did get 10 rebs per game in the ECF don't forget. Fred Jones at small forward is not going to get it done.

I'll tell you right now a lineup of Tinsley, Reggie, Freddie, Jeff (or Cro) and J.O. is incapable of beating the Pistons in a 7 game series. Fred can't guard Rip. Rip goes into the midpost against Fred and can just shoot over the top of him. Pacers need Jax to guard Rip. But that also allows Price to become a factor offensively and when he scores well the Pistons are almost unbeatable.

Let me discuss the Foster v Croshere situation against the Pistons. Yes the Pacers need Cro in there on offense to spread the floor, I'll buy that, but at the other end, whoever Cro is guarding dominates the Pacers either by scoring at will or by getting easy offensive rebounds, even McDyess was cleaning up against Cro. Cro was getting manhandled in the paint. Pistons are simply a very tough matchup for the Pacers.


Keep in mind I have not seen the replays, but when Foster was fouled hard by Ben Wallace midway through the 4th quarter, I could not help but think back to 11/19. I thought that was a harder foul committed by Ben than Artest commited back on 11/19, granted it was not committed in the last minute of a game that had already been decided.

But what did Jeff do after he was fouled hard, did he look at Ben, no, did he go after Ben, No, did he try to take Ben's head off, No, Jeff simply got up said he was fine and shot his two free throws even though he was bleeding pretty good.

I have lost all respect for Ben Wallace after what he did 11/19, I hate him now, he is someone who I wish never played another NBA game again, and please take your punk *** brother with you.

Enough of that, I don't want to waste another second thinking about that piece of trash.

J.O was a little rusty in the first half, but he came on in the second, and it is so great to have a low post presents once again, most of all it was great to see him on the court after 5 long weeks.

Overall I felt I was watching an extension of the ECF from last season, all the same problems the Pacers had last season look to be the same this season.


I have more to say, but not right now

ReGgieMiLLeR31
12-25-2004, 10:14 PM
Once S. JAX comes back and J.O. plays a few games we will be fine...our team with S. JAX is better than this Detroit team; and I disagree, I think Ron being on the team elevates us to a another level above the Pistons...with S. JAX we are slightly better than them or as good...depending on who has homecourt would probably win the series. Remember 11/19? Ron got his shots up well and I feel he had elevated his game to a whole different level this year.

Crusher
12-25-2004, 10:20 PM
Certainly the big question was why all Cro at the end. But also, why not some more James Jones? I am always more comfortable with him shooting the 3 than Cro. He gets more wide open 3s than probably anyone in the NBA. If 31 got those kind of looks he'd shoot 70%. This is to say nothing about Cro's ability to drive the ball (50 - 50 if he is going to get a charge).

I missed Jack more than Artest tonight.

As the game was winding down I couldn't help but think about what could have been ... and, in the end, Artest has cost us dearly. I'm a huge Artest fan but couldn't help but think that this is his fault.

ReGgieMiLLeR31
12-25-2004, 10:25 PM
This is not Ronnie's fault...it is the fault of Ben Wallace the punk and the thugish Pistons fans, alongside David Stern. Anyways, why can't Croshere make a god damn wide open 3? We've been giving him a chance and he has been letting us down...I don't seem to like him much anymore....keep J.J. in!

Pistoner
12-25-2004, 10:33 PM
Keep in mind I have not seen the replays, but when Foster was fouled hard by Ben Wallace midway through the 4th quarter, I could not help but think back to 11/19. I thought that was a harder foul committed by Ben than Artest commited back on 11/19, granted it was not committed in the last minute of a game that had already been decided.

But what did Jeff do after he was fouled hard, did he look at Ben, no, did he go after Ben, No, did he try to take Ben's head off, No, Jeff simply got up said he was fine and shot his two free throws even though he was bleeding pretty good.

I have lost all respect for Ben Wallace after what he did 11/19, I hate him now, he is someone who I wish never played another NBA game again, and please take your punk *** brother with you.

Enough of that, I don't want to waste another second thinking about that piece of trash.




The play you are referring to was not a hard foul. Foster hung on the rim too long and fell hard.

I can't believe you lost all respect for Ben Wallace for pushing Artest. What Wallace did occurs frequently in the NBA. Not trying to flame, I just feel bad that you have all been left so bitter in the aftermath of the malace at the palace. If all the extra stuff didn't occur, would you still have lost all respect for Wallace? Just curious.

Merry Christmas.

Outlaw
12-25-2004, 10:41 PM
As I was watching the game today I really didn't have any ill feeling towards Detroit as a team. But as for (chia pet:devil: )Wallace I have absolutely no respect for him as a man or player.He has almost an arrogant attitude about the whole fiasco. Acting as tho he did nothing wrong at all.:rolleyes:

BSPN annoucers kept bringing up 11/19 just about every other basket. It is really getting old as is Dope & Shaq. I kinda wish they would do some real reporting for a change instead of running the same old stories in the ground.:mad:

I do believe Sjax can help with Rip who has the best mid range game in the league in my opinion.But I think defensive switching will help so one guy does not try to do it all by himself.because he like Reggie run off so many screens it is hard for one man to stay with him.

As for Prince he would not have had the game he had if Ron would have been guarding him.IMO JJ just is not the same kind of defensive player Ron is.That's not a knock on him by the way.:cool:

Kstat
12-25-2004, 10:45 PM
The play you are referring to was not a hard foul. Foster hung on the rim too long and fell hard.

I can't believe you lost all respect for Ben Wallace for pushing Artest. What Wallace did occurs frequently in the NBA. Not trying to flame, I just feel bad that you have all been left so bitter in the aftermath of the malace at the palace. If all the extra stuff didn't occur, would you still have lost all respect for Wallace? Just curious.

Merry Christmas.

Pistoner, just let it go, man.

Why do you care wether or not they hate Ben Wallace? I'd be a little dissapointed if they didnt hate at least ONE Piston.......I could care less which players gusy here hate, and neither does Big Ben.

If I were a Pacer fan, I'd probably hate him too, same reason as most pistons fans have zero respect and total disdain for Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson, and to a lesser extent, Jermaine Oneal.

The only place I draw the line is cheering personal harm/injury. Other than that, who cares what they boo.

Remember, if people always liked the Pistons, they wouldn't have 3 banners right now.....smaller-market teams can only gain an identity with the "us against the world" mentality.

ReGgieMiLLeR31
12-25-2004, 10:47 PM
If you have total disdain for Artest and S. JAX you shouldn't be on this board...you are nothing but a nuissance as us PACER fans hate the PISTONS not because of their basketball, but because they are all a bunch of scumbags and dirt.

pb777
12-25-2004, 10:50 PM
1. Freddie can obviously hit the 3. Why does he wait until we are in a desperate situation to pull the trigger on it? I saw him pass up 3 or 4 open threes in the course of the game.

2. The inbound play for Reggie, the one where he goes thru 4 or 5 screens and shoots the baseline 3 - u know the one. Why dont we run this play more often? He hits this shot everytime it seems.

3. Were JO and David ever on the floor at the same time? I didnt notice, but am interested to see them work together. I hope David's hands get better...

4. I think this game was a big adjustment for the team. Getting JO back changes the flow and dynamics of our floorplan. It will all come together soon. When Jax is back contributing at the 3, watch out.

Pistoner
12-25-2004, 10:55 PM
Pistoner, just let it go, man.

Why do you care wether or not they hate Ben Wallace? I'd be a little dissapointed if they didnt hate at least ONE Piston.......I could care less which players gusy here hate, and neither does Big Ben.

If I were a Pacer fan, I'd probably hate him too, same reason as most pistons fans have zero respect and total disdain for Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson, and to a lesser extent, Jermaine Oneal.

The only place I draw the line is cheering personal harm/injury. Other than that, who cares what they boo.

Remember, if people always liked the Pistons, they wouldn't have 3 banners right now.....smaller-market teams can only gain an identity with the "us against the world" mentality.

I don't "Care" who likes who. I read this forum a lot and Uncle Buck seems to be pretty reasonable most of the time. He seems pretty jaded right now. I was just curious what a REASONABLE man's rationale for the hatred was.

No Worries.

Unclebuck
12-25-2004, 10:58 PM
I don't think J.O and David were ever on the floor at the same time. But David just was not able to contribute today.

One other thing. I sat in a different location for todays game, a little lower and more on the baseline, and I have to say Rip Hamilton is a "dirty player". He elbows, and hits people constantly, but gets away with it. I am hesitant to use the term dirty because I don't see anything really wrong with what he does, it is up to the refs to call the stuff he does. But he hits a lot of hits in on the opposing team.

Tough to pick up on TV, but next time you go to a game watch Rip. he reminds me of John Stockton, very sneak and good.

DisplacedKnick
12-25-2004, 11:04 PM
It wasn't the shove with Wallace - it was the way he carried on for the next 2-3 minutes like Artest had raped his sister or something. No use for that - I lost a lot of respect for him myself after that. He can get it back - I used to think JO was "fake tough" but he isn't now. But Ben Wallace was a punk Nov 19 - and I'm not a Pacer fan.

To the game. A couple of things I noticed. First, the Pacers didn't defend off screens well at all. They also seemed lost on their rotations sometimes - got caught in no-man's land a LOT. Did a lot of chasing and seemed a step behind Detroit quite a bit.

PB - saw the same thing with Freddie - he passed up 3-4 open 3's from the identical spot where he nailed one. I was thinking to myself "He must not be hitting them lately or something."

On offense the team doesn't have a clue what to do when Tinsley penetrates. Craziest thing I've ever seen - Tinsley takes the ball into the paint and gets the defense moving - and everyone just stands there looking at him, leaving him hung up. I'm amazed he even drives. Carlisle needs to work on that - get JO to step out to 15 feet, have Foster set a pick for Reggie - get things happening so JT has some options. I don't know if this has been happening the last few games but if it has I can see why he shot 31 times - he had no choice.

JO wasn't getting position real deep or real well. I thought this game was officiated much more like last year than any game I've seen this year - a lot of hand-fighting and grabbing going on. The Pacers should have gone to that though Rip's gotten much better at flopping - almost Reggie-esque.

Didn't like taking Foster out with 5-6 minutes left against a team that was killing you on the boards. I know conventional wisdom is go with offense when you're behind and defense when you're ahead but Croshere hadn't done much scoring all game and we gave up way too many second chances.

The Pistons would be SOOOO scary if Rasheed made offense a priority - he could still average 25 per without breaking a sweat. Good effort from the Pacers. I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if Tinsley had been healthy - definitely wasn't his best game, even though he had good numbers.

I wouldn't get too depressed about it - JO only really started playing the 2nd half and there were a lot of mistakes made that can be cut down on. Pistons looked solid, but so did Indy for the most part.

Unclebuck
12-25-2004, 11:10 PM
Foster was initially taken out because he was bleeding, and by the time they got that stopped the Pacers were down 8 or 9 under 4 minutes left and at that point the Pacers needed more offense.

Shade
12-25-2004, 11:11 PM
Excellent points, UB. I agree.

Hicks
12-25-2004, 11:28 PM
I think people are jumping the gun on the Artest talk in that we're sunk. We lost THREE guys in that fight, ONE is back, one is still waiting for January to end, and the other is not coming back. Let's wait until BOTH of them are back before we judge where we are at.

sixthman
12-25-2004, 11:32 PM
Stephen Jackson will help against Detroit substantially. We need his length, particularly defensively, and we need some offense at small forward.

Pistons hit their open shots today consistently. A little more pressure off the switches and screens and that edge could go away.

I thought Cro and Harrison were stage struck early on. And, gads, yes, Freddie has to take that outside shot, particularly when he's on the floor with other second unit players.

James Jones has to make himself go to the hoop.

We need at least one of two miracles to happen: Either Stern has to rescind some of S Jack's suspension, or Jon Bender needs to find the fountain of health. Just a healthy Jon Bender might improve our chances against the Pistons.

McDyess was a major factor today. We didn't need that.

Hicks
12-25-2004, 11:39 PM
Yes, replacing James Jones with Stephen Jackson in the starting 5 will be very important. Think Jack would only score 3 points today? Heh. Hehheh. (That's not to knock James, I like him; he's just not ready)

Unclebuck
12-25-2004, 11:45 PM
I agree Jax will be huge against the Pistons.

But please someone tell me who is going to guard Rip. If you say, Jax will, OK, but then Reggie guards Prince and he immediately becomes a big factor scoring and on the boards. OK have Reggie guard Rip and Jax guard Prince, well Reggie has trouble with Rip.

I think the best lineup against the Pistons is Jax at shooting guard and Ronnie at the small forward, that is what the Pacers need to beat the Pistons.

pb777
12-25-2004, 11:50 PM
I think the best lineup against the Pistons is Jax at shooting guard and Ronnie at the small forward, that is what the Pacers need to beat the Pistons.Agreed. That is exactly why we traded for jax. But it is 99.999% not going to happen this year.:(

pb777
12-25-2004, 11:54 PM
Hey did you hear what RIP was yelling at the scorer's table after making that big shot on reggie late in the 4th?

pb777
12-25-2004, 11:58 PM
I was hoping somebody down there heard it. I was told what he said but i'd rather someone who heard it comment on it.

Unclebuck
12-26-2004, 12:02 AM
I did not hear it. I was sitting near where McDyess went into the stands

Bball
12-26-2004, 12:03 AM
I was hoping somebody down there heard it. I was told what he said but i'd rather someone who heard it comment on it.


PB,
You keep this stuff up and you will have Pacer fans hating the Pistons!
....errrr wait... nevermind... :devil:

;)

-Bball

pb777
12-26-2004, 12:08 AM
PB,
You keep this stuff up and you will have Pacer fans hating the Pistons!
....errrr wait... nevermind... :devil:

;)

-BballDamn, that's not my intention! He was just trash talking, gave reggie a bit of his own medicine. Something along the lines of "Reggie is my :censored: " I didnt hear it, just heard about it and was hoping someone on here did hear it and could comment on it...
Reggie used to be the king of trash-talking. Rip really admires reggie, it must have felt great to light him up in the second half...

Kegboy
12-26-2004, 01:06 AM
Yes, Freddie was gun-shy today. A guy behind me was ready to string him up for not taking shots.

However, I was too busy *****ing about Cro. I won't knock him, it's obvious he's not healthy. The problem is, if he's not "injured" he's still too damn "hurt" to help us out there. He won't shoot except when forced to, which he invariably short-arms, and he can't defend his own shadow right now. His defense on McDyess was embarrassing.

I was thinking Jeff's hip was bothering him after Chia Pet's foul. If not, Rick's nuts for not putting him back in the second that bleeding was taped up. Jeff might not have Austin's range, but he'd get you a couple offensive boards, and he sure as hell would have kept Detroit from doing the same, over, and over again. :(

If they want to wait and make sure that JO's back for good, that's fine. But the second they know Jermaine's here to stay, they need to put Austin on the IR. Hell, they should have put him on yesterday instead of cutting Haislip. He's not doing anybody any good out there. Not at all.

One last thing, I heard Walton giving Tinsley crap during the Laker game. Don't know if this was shown on TV, but Jamaal was so damn sick he had a towel over his head every single second he wasn't playing, even while sitting at the scorers table. He got knocked down once and couldn't get back on D cause he couldn't lift himself off the court.

Still, it's only one game. Hopefully we'll play better when we get some practice time, and we don't have turds like Jess Kersey calling the action. :shakehead:

shags
12-26-2004, 01:10 AM
I agree Jax will be huge against the Pistons.

But please someone tell me who is going to guard Rip. If you say, Jax will, OK, but then Reggie guards Prince and he immediately becomes a big factor scoring and on the boards. OK have Reggie guard Rip and Jax guard Prince, well Reggie has trouble with Rip.

I think the best lineup against the Pistons is Jax at shooting guard and Ronnie at the small forward, that is what the Pacers need to beat the Pistons.

Just remember that there's no way Carlisle would have had the guts to use that lineup in crunch time. It's irrelevant now, but it would have been Reggie and Artest had the Pacers been healthy. He wasn't going to sit Reggie, and you know it. And the "alleged" DPOY couldn't stop Rip last season in the playoffs.

SoupIsGood
12-26-2004, 01:44 AM
You guys are talking about Tayshaun Prince being the main reason we lose, because we can't guard him? Come on, I'll take my chances there.

Pistons made their shots down the stretch, and we didn't rebound. It was a hard fought game, I'm proud of how we played.

JOneal7
12-26-2004, 04:02 AM
I think rick needs to see the games where rip has had a bad game and see how those teams defend him. If you put anyone but reggie on him they won't be able to keep up with his quickness. I remember taking a 4 or 5 point lead and reggie came down and launched a 3. It was after the crowd was chanting REGGIE REGGIE...And i'll be damned if the pistons didn't rally off 7 strait points to go up 4 and carlisle called a TO.
:(

Peck
12-26-2004, 06:15 AM
I'm going to go against the grain & I know this is blasphemy to say here on this board but I'm gonna do it anyway.

We were outcoached.

We lost that game at the end of the third quarter when we were down by 2 points & for whatever reason Rick decided that this was the time to play the bench & have absolutely no one on the floor who would/could score.

Our 2 point deficet quickly became a 9 point deficet & we never ever recovered from that.

There were other problems obviously, but that was such a momentum killer that I just could not shake it.

Now as to other things.

Croshere sucked. Look I'm the guy who *****es the most that the guy gets screwed here, but today he is the one who did the screwing. Maybe he's injured, maybe he's sick. But this was all of the old classic crappy Croshere signs that we have come to know & hate.

I know whenever his first shot of the game is a three that we are in for a rough day. If it drops he's usually ok, but if he misses it he usually takes a few quarters to get over it.

He is just one of those players that just has to have something go right for him before he plays worth a crap. Today nothing went right till almost the third quarter.

He had a great great great first part of the season, but if he is this hurt then for God's sake pull a Bender & sit on the pine.

Jamaal Iverson was in action for a lot of the day. :mad: Look, he looked sick so I'll give him a break but he can't continue to do this much more.

David Harrison I just don't see what you guys thought was much of the problem. I think expectations are to high for him right now. Keep saying it over & over he was the last pick in the first round anything we get from him is a bonus. I still thought he should have played more.

Foster was great. I don't have anything negative to say about him at all. I think he played a great game.

Fred should pull the trigger more often & not wait as PB has pointed out.

Now to Wallace.

Two years ago this guy was one of my favorite players in the NBA. During the playoffs I lost some respect because of what I thought he was above (flopping) but still thought he was a hell of a player.

I still think he is a good player but in all honesty I think Jermaine is now clearly better.

I know why U.B. hates him & for the record I certainly understand why.

I'll just say it now, a win is a win & if the Pacers had won we would all be celebrating. So it's ok for Detroit to walk away with their heads held high for winning.

But make no mistake, we are still not the team we will be by the end of the season.

Jax will be back. Jermaine O'neal & Reggie & Jeff will have played more than one game together & hopefully Jamaal will be healthy.

So, take pride in your win. Enjoy Christmas, but know this next game will be the teller of tales at least till the playoffs.

Unclebuck
12-26-2004, 10:39 AM
We were outcoached.

We lost that game at the end of the third quarter when we were down by 2 points & for whatever reason Rick decided that this was the time to play the bench & have absolutely no one on the floor who would/could score.

Our 2 point deficet quickly became a 9 point deficet & we never ever recovered from that.

There were other problems obviously, but that was such a momentum killer that I just could not shake it.



Is that coaching or is it just bad play by the bench. Do you want the Pacers starters to lay almost the whole game.

Peck, I don't disagree with you and it also happened in the first half when the bench came in. Perhaps Rick could have done what LB did and keep a few of the starters in the game when he played the reserves. But Rick did that in the second half, he kept J.O in the game when the bench players came in for as long as he could, but he needed to give J.O a few minutes rest. So there were also a few minutes where J.O was out. But Reggie came backin very early in the 4th quarter. So I don't know.

But as a coach you have to play the bench, we don't want to go back to the IT era where the bench rarely played in the second half of games.

Peck
12-26-2004, 10:51 AM
I absolutely want the bench to play. However I have never been a big fan of two teams, starters & bench.

I think an amalgom of players is the best, just like Brown did today. The period you just mentioned when both J.O. & Reggie were on the bench was exactly the time I was talking about. We went from 2 down to 9 down in a min. time & we never recovered.

Did you notice that we had our bench in vs. their bench but somehow their bench also included Billups & Hamilton? In other words Larry never platooned players like Rick did.

It would have been differant if Austin or Fred or anybody was hitting when he did that but at that time nobody on the bench was worth a crap, except for maybe A.J.

Unclebuck
12-26-2004, 12:14 PM
Pacers got zero rebounds from their starting backcourt. That is disgraceful

ABADays
12-26-2004, 12:20 PM
This won't be popular with a lot of you, but I have come to the conclusion that I absolutely hate seeing Anthony Johnson come into a game. Good Lord - the offense is just horrible when he is in there.

Unclebuck
12-26-2004, 12:23 PM
Keep in mind that AJ is playing with a bad hamstring, according to Carlisle. But AJ has not played real well this season, much better last season. But he is always solid

The obsession some of you have in criticizing AJ is beyond me, or maybe more accurately the constant harping on how bad AJ is way beyond me. Not picking on you ABA because you are only one of many.

ABADays
12-26-2004, 12:30 PM
I haven't really picked on him before. Just watching him he always seems stiff as a board. There is no flexibility or lift to him. I just looked up the +/- stats and he's at the bottom of the list. I like the guy and I hope improvement is coming but boy, right now, my stomach just churns when he comes in.

Kegboy
12-26-2004, 01:28 PM
I like AJ, but I'll admit he's not playing very well at all. If he needs to sit, then Gill is more than capable to play behind Tins in the mean time.

Peck, thank you for your words on Cro. If you had come on here defending his play yesterday, I think my head would have exploded.

As for the coaching moves, Larry plays a short bench because he has a short bench. Unless you really think Ham and Darko should be rotation players. And your name isn't Kstat. :-p

Our bench is a strength for us, so I can understand why Rick played the way he did. I just think our whole game was off due to injuries and people not used to playing with each other. Now that JO will start practicing with the starters and we can make our gameplan more post-centric, we'll be okay.

However, I can't stress this enough, if somebody is hurt, sit the Mother*****er down already! Playing through pain for a few games is admirable, but the more guys play injured, the worse they'll get. I'd gladly give up a place or two in the standings if it means our team will be at full health come playoff time.

Unclebuck
12-26-2004, 06:27 PM
Carlisle certainly does not need me to defend him, but the Pacers' team changes a couple of times a week, so I understand if the rotations are a little screwy.

Ragnar
12-26-2004, 11:42 PM
This won't be popular with a lot of you, but I have come to the conclusion that I absolutely hate seeing Anthony Johnson come into a game. Good Lord - the offense is just horrible when he is in there.

Certainly not unpopular with me. The irony is that there were times in this last game and in many other games where I thought he played well. He is simply not a point guard we play him at that position but he is not a point guard. Maybe its like Cro (last game not withstanding) maybe he just needs minutes at the two and none at the point. Cro played terrible as a sf just like AJ is playing terrible at the point.

I know a lot of you think I hate AJ. I dont really what I hate is his play at the pg position. I hated Mercers play at the point, I would hate Reggie if he was the backup pg because those guys are not pg's (not that Mercer is a sg either)