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Peck
03-02-2013, 02:15 AM
passed the great Mel Daniels on the all-time Pacers scoring list.

Actually it happened last game but I forgot to verify, but per basketball-reference.com


1. Reggie Miller* 25279
2. Rik Smits 12871
3. Billy Knight 10780
4. Roger Brown 10058
5. Jermaine O'Neal 9580
6. George McGinnis 9545
7. Vern Fleming 9535
8. Danny Granger 9321
9. Mel Daniels* 9314
10. Freddie Lewis 9257


There is an outside chance he could catch & pass Jermaine O'Neal this year, Danny would have to avg. approximately 11+ for the rest of the season so while it's not going to be easy it is still possible.

I know there are a lot of people out here who don't particularly like Granger but for those of us that do we really need to appreciate that we have been blessed with one of the all time great Pacers. Sadly if injury had't robbed him of this season I really think he could have caught Billy Knight this year.

But even so, passing a hall of fame player in the scoring bracket is still something to be proud of.

So salute to the Captain, Danny Granger!!!!

AesopRockOn
03-02-2013, 02:22 AM
And here's to Paul reaching for the top of that list in due time. :buddies:

Peck
03-02-2013, 02:27 AM
And here's to Paul reaching for the top of that list in due time. :buddies:

Man he is going to have to have a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg ggggggg productive career to catch Reggie.

But if anybody can, I'd say Paul has the tools to do it.

joew8302
03-02-2013, 03:15 AM
As great as Paul is I really doubt he catches Reggie.

To get over 25,000 points you need sustained excellence and a certain degree of luck. Lots of things would have to come together.

cdash
03-02-2013, 03:18 AM
My god Reggie is on another planet.

Ace E.Anderson
03-02-2013, 03:23 AM
Definitely my favorite pacer of the post brawl era. It's a shame his peak was under JOB and a less talented roster. I'll always love and respect DG

Miller_time04
03-02-2013, 06:23 AM
You have to go deep in the playoffs almost every year and have a 15+ year career to get those kind of numbers. It's possible.

RamBo_Lamar
03-02-2013, 07:03 AM
My god Reggie is on another planet.

Smits being #2 is pretty amazing as well...

"Who woulda ever thunk it?"

BlueNGold
03-02-2013, 09:20 AM
What is most amazing about Reggie is that if he was a selfish player he could have scored another 10K points.

Paul will indeed need a LOT of luck to pass Reggie. But he did get an early start.

Sollozzo
03-02-2013, 09:36 AM
You have to go deep in the playoffs almost every year and have a 15+ year career to get those kind of numbers. It's possible.

The playoffs don't count on an all-time scoring list. They only use regular season so everyone stays on an equal playing field. Reggie's 25,279 points are a sum of his 18 regular seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millere01.html

Tom White
03-02-2013, 09:41 AM
The playoffs don't count on an all-time scoring list. They only use regular season so everyone stays on an equal playing field. Reggie's 25,279 points are a sum of his 18 regular seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millere01.html

That's interesting. I had no idea they did it that way.

Pacerized
03-02-2013, 09:43 AM
Congrats Danny.
It's likely we could update this on a regular basis for the rest of the season. He should pass J.O. for #5 this year.

15th parallel
03-02-2013, 09:55 AM
The only chance for PG to surpass that is if he will stay whole of his career to the Pacers. Hope he aims fo that. :)

Congratulations to DG33! Hope he can continue to surpass the others!

ndcoltsnpacers
03-02-2013, 09:55 AM
George could definitely outscore Reggie in his career if he continues his upward path and sustains it to some degree. Maybe the most difficult part would be keeping him here 18 years like Reggie was. If he did that, he'd almost surely have the steals record and probably the assists record as well.

1984
03-02-2013, 10:50 AM
25,279

http://www.gifcrap.com/g2data/albums/TV/Wayne_s%20World%20-%20We_re%20not%20worthy.gif

Deadshot
03-02-2013, 10:57 AM
Definitely my favorite pacer of the post brawl era. It's a shame his peak was under JOB and a less talented roster. I'll always love and respect DG

That probably helped contribute to his points total as it is. He was essentially forced to be a #1 option. Same thing happened with Dunleavy when Granger went down for awhile (although I never saw Dunleavy play anything close to that again, but I think a knee injury played a large role in that).

Hicks
03-02-2013, 11:22 AM
I know there are a lot of people out here who don't particularly like Granger but for those of us that do


Okay, this got me wondering just what the numbers really are on this, so I started a new poll to find out. Everyone vote; tell us where you stand!

idioteque
03-02-2013, 11:36 AM
He will pass the mighty Vern Fleming soon. I always forget how long Vern played for the Pacers, by the time I started being able to understand the game he had already been on the team for like 7 or 8 years.

The Vern Fleming record no one will probably ever beat: 12 seasons (most if not all in which he played heavy rotation minutes), no technical fouls! :-o

A-Train
03-02-2013, 11:55 AM
Still remember when Shaq fell on Vern (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1994-04-29/features/9404291077_1_vern-fleming-pacers-playoffs), busting his teeth out and hurting his knee. He might have wanted to retaliate that time if he wasn't so busted up at the moment.

croz24
03-02-2013, 12:18 PM
What is most amazing about Reggie is that if he was a selfish player he could have scored another 10K points.

Thank you. Not enough people realize how much Reggie deferred to teammates and allowed others to get involved in the offense. Pacers fans generally understand this, but outsiders merely looking at volume stats do not.

Hicks
03-02-2013, 12:20 PM
Longevity is a big factor. I mean Reggie Miller is not just the leader in points, he is also #1 All Time Pacer in Assists and Steals and Turnovers.

And all of the above makes sense because...

Minutes played:

1. Reggie Miller 47,619
2. Rik Smits 23,100

He has literally played more than twice as many minutes for Indiana than any other Pacer.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/leaders_career.html

HickeyS2000
03-02-2013, 12:26 PM
Still remember when Shaq fell on Vern (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1994-04-29/features/9404291077_1_vern-fleming-pacers-playoffs), busting his teeth out and hurting his knee. He might have wanted to retaliate that time if he wasn't so busted up at the moment.

Shaq fell on him trying to block Vern's layup, busted out most his teeth, banged up his knee, annnnnnnd there was no foul on the play. Proof the NBA hasn't changed in 20 years.

HickeyS2000
03-02-2013, 12:28 PM
Longevity is a big factor. I mean Reggie Miller is not just the leader in points, he is also #1 All Time Pacer in Assists and Steals and Turnovers.


Now that I would not have bet on. Amazing considering the PG he played with is # 4 or so all-time in assists.

graphic-er
03-02-2013, 01:29 PM
I can't believe that Vern Flemming is on this list. I can see all the other guys, but I had no idea Vern was that productive.

Downtown Bang!
03-02-2013, 02:42 PM
IMO Vern was a very underated Pacer because he played on a lot of bad teams. Vern was a little turnover prone but had great size for a point, was a well above average defender and a really good mid-range scorer. In short Vern was the consumate professional and teamate.

Most people don't remember but he was a key member of 1984 Olympic team. The last group of college players to win a gold. On that 84 team Vern & Alvin Robertson were a great defensive tandem and just plain wore out the other international backcourts. Knight even trusted them to pressure the ball full court which is something he never did with his IU teams.

Naptown_Seth
03-02-2013, 03:21 PM
passed the great Mel Daniels on the all-time Pacers scoring list.

Actually it happened last game but I forgot to verify, but per basketball-reference.com


1. Reggie Miller* 25279
2. Rik Smits 12871
3. Billy Knight 10780
4. Roger Brown 10058
5. Jermaine O'Neal 9580
6. George McGinnis 9545
7. Vern Fleming 9535
8. Danny Granger 9321
9. Mel Daniels* 9314
10. Freddie Lewis 9257


There is an outside chance he could catch & pass Jermaine O'Neal this year, Danny would have to avg. approximately 11+ for the rest of the season so while it's not going to be easy it is still possible.

I know there are a lot of people out here who don't particularly like Granger but for those of us that do we really need to appreciate that we have been blessed with one of the all time great Pacers. Sadly if injury had't robbed him of this season I really think he could have caught Billy Knight this year.

But even so, passing a hall of fame player in the scoring bracket is still something to be proud of.

So salute to the Captain, Danny Granger!!!!

I realize that a re-sign is a tough maybe depending on numbers, but as I've said all along you can re-sign West now and then decide on Danny next year at the trade deadline depending on how things are going. If he's playing at "give me 12-14m per year" with Paul, West, Roy and Hill playing how they would likely be playing, then you have a 65 win team and you pay the lux tax for at least one year just to do what you might never do again.

On the other hand if he's not "earning" his current contract rate then it means that you can keep him due to reduced market rate. As a 12-6-2 guy you could maybe get him for 8-9 per (ie, the guy we've had the last 2 games).


Either way just one more season with the Pacers puts him past Roger Brown and on the heels of Knight. 3 more seasons and he could be #2 on the list, to be joined later by Paul George. When you look at who is #1 and #2 on the list now, you see what that implies...ECF and Finals runs.



Think about what the Pacers did prior to Rik being at #2. Say it's 97 and people wonder if Rik will ever get over his foot issues and if he's worth keeping. He's maybe in the same range on this list as Danny is now (haven't done the math). In other words you could be looking back to this season and thinking about a few ECF/Finals and how Danny climbed to #2.

Or you could punt on what might be the greatest starting 5 the Pacers have ever had.

ChicagoJ
03-03-2013, 04:44 PM
IMO Vern was a very underated Pacer because he played on a lot of bad teams. Vern was a little turnover prone but had great size for a point, was a well above average defender and a really good mid-range scorer. In short Vern was the consumate professional and teamate.

Most people don't remember but he was a key member of 1984 Olympic team. The last group of college players to win a gold. On that 84 team Vern & Alvin Robertson were a great defensive tandem and just plain wore out the other international backcourts. Knight even trusted them to pressure the ball full court which is something he never did with his IU teams.

The Vern Fleming that seemingly way too few of us remember is the "gold standard" for being able to finish at the rim.

Sure, some could dismiss it as "just getting whatever junk he threw up there to drop".

But I prefer to think of Vern Fleming by using my inner-Slick Leonard voice, as he always appreciated when Vern would go "right up Meridian St., baby!".

Sure, anything beyond 15-feet was a knuckleball jumper and we all wondered how he got any of them to drop.

At the end of the day, a much better playmaker than he's ever given credit for. He was probably better suited to be a combo guard, but for the first two years of his career we didn't even have any other guards. Stansberry doesn't count. Finally John Long for a couple of years took a little pressure off Vern, then that skinny UCLA kid helped a lot.

= = = = = = = = = = =

This list, it bears repeating because a few are already confused about it, has a strong correlation to career minutes played for just one team.

There's no doubt that JO, Big Mac, and perhaps Rahjah would be much higher on the list if they played more of their career with the Pacers. There is another name to include with that. Mel Daniels ranks #250 all-time on the combined ABA/NBA scoring list with 11,778 points, basically over 8 seasons (and 11 games of his final season.)

And some guys that aren't on the list (Chuck Person, six seasons and 9,096 points for the Pacers) would also be in that category.

I like Danny, but I think this list shows that you can always use a bunch of arbitrary filters to make whatever story you want to make.

Here's another version of the same data:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/leaders_career.html

(Long-time Pacers fans will look at this data and wonder about how Alex English, Adrian Dantely, and John Williamson are missing -- basketball-reference's criteria is for a minimum of 100 games with the franchise. Meanwhile, how badly did Big Mac cut into his average after we gave up Alex English's 22ppg to bring him back at the end of his career? I'll answer that. In four ABA seasons, Big Mac scored 7919 points in 314 games, an average of 25.5 PPG. When he returned to the team in the 1980 season, he put up 1626 points over his final 173 games, an average of 9.9 PPG. I'm still baffled that Big Mac will hopefully be the third of our ABA Legends to make the Hall... not to take anything away from Mel and Roger but I'm not so sure I understand the Hall's logic here.)

Points Per Game

<TBODY>
1.

George McGinnis (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/m/mcginge01.html)

19.6



2.

Mel Daniels (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/d/danieme01.html)*

19.4



3.

Chuck Person (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/p/persoch01.html)

19.0



4.

Clark Kellogg (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/k/kellocl01.html)

18.9



5.

Jermaine O'Neal (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/o/onealje01.html)

18.6



6.

Billy Knight (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/k/knighbi01.html)

18.4



7.

Reggie Miller (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/m/millere01.html)*

18.2



8.

Danny Granger (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/g/grangda01.html)

18.1



9.

Roger Brown (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/b/brownro01.html)

18.0



10.

Ricky Sobers (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/s/soberri01.html)

17.8


</TBODY>

Peck
03-03-2013, 05:26 PM
The Vern Fleming that seemingly way too few of us remember is the "gold standard" for being able to finish at the rim.

Sure, some could dismiss it as "just getting whatever junk he threw up there to drop".

But I prefer to think of Vern Fleming by using my inner-Slick Leonard voice, as he always appreciated when Vern would go "right up Meridian St., baby!".

Sure, anything beyond 15-feet was a knuckleball jumper and we all wondered how he got any of them to drop.

At the end of the day, a much better playmaker than he's ever given credit for. He was probably better suited to be a combo guard, but for the first two years of his career we didn't even have any other guards. Stansberry doesn't count. Finally John Long for a couple of years took a little pressure off Vern, then that skinny UCLA kid helped a lot.

= = = = = = = = = = =

This list, it bears repeating because a few are already confused about it, has a strong correlation to career minutes played for just one team.

There's no doubt that JO, Big Mac, and perhaps Rahjah would be much higher on the list if they played more of their career with the Pacers. There is another name to include with that. Mel Daniels ranks #250 all-time on the combined ABA/NBA scoring list with 11,778 points, basically over 8 seasons (and 11 games of his final season.)

And some guys that aren't on the list (Chuck Person, six seasons and 9,096 points for the Pacers) would also be in that category.

I like Danny, but I think this list shows that you can always use a bunch of arbitrary filters to make whatever story you want to make.

Here's another version of the same data:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/leaders_career.html

(Long-time Pacers fans will look at this data and wonder about how Alex English, Adrian Dantely, and John Williamson are missing -- basketball-reference's criteria is for a minimum of 100 games with the franchise. Meanwhile, how badly did Big Mac cut into his average after we gave up Alex English's 22ppg to bring him back at the end of his career? I'll answer that. In four ABA seasons, Big Mac scored 7919 points in 314 games, an average of 25.5 PPG. When he returned to the team in the 1980 season, he put up 1626 points over his final 173 games, an average of 9.9 PPG. I'm still baffled that Big Mac will hopefully be the third of our ABA Legends to make the Hall... not to take anything away from Mel and Roger but I'm not so sure I understand the Hall's logic here.)

Points Per Game

<TBODY>
1.

George McGinnis (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/m/mcginge01.html)

19.6



2.

Mel Daniels (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/d/danieme01.html)*

19.4



3.

Chuck Person (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/p/persoch01.html)

19.0



4.

Clark Kellogg (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/k/kellocl01.html)

18.9



5.

Jermaine O'Neal (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/o/onealje01.html)

18.6



6.

Billy Knight (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/k/knighbi01.html)

18.4



7.

Reggie Miller (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/m/millere01.html)*

18.2



8.

Danny Granger (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/g/grangda01.html)

18.1



9.

Roger Brown (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/b/brownro01.html)

18.0



10.

Ricky Sobers (http://www.pacersdigest.com/players/s/soberri01.html)

17.8


</TBODY>

I agree with the highlighted part, just to prove I agree with you let's look further.

Minutes Played
1. Reggie Miller* 47619
2. Rik Smits 23100
3. Vern Fleming 22974
4. Roger Brown 20315
5. Dale Davis 19814
6. Freddie Lewis 19534
7. Herb Williams 18455
8. Jermaine O'Neal 17997
9. Billy Knight 17787
10. Mel Daniels* 17756


Field Goal Attempts
1. Reggie Miller* 17499
2. Rik Smits 10461
3. Billy Knight 8235
4. Jermaine O'Neal 7973
5. Roger Brown 7852
6. George McGinnis 7822
7. Chuck Person 7820
8. Mel Daniels* 7666
9. Freddie Lewis 7627
10. Herb Williams 757

You'll notice that Danny Granger is on neither of those lists, so is it safe to say that Danny has scored more points while taking fewer shots in less min. on the floor for the Pacers than the above players.

Nobody was highlighted to make a point or anything. :devil:

joew8302
03-03-2013, 05:28 PM
I agree with the highlighted part, just to prove I agree with you let's look further.

Minutes Played
1. Reggie Miller* 47619
2. Rik Smits 23100
3. Vern Fleming 22974
4. Roger Brown 20315
5. Dale Davis 19814
6. Freddie Lewis 19534
7. Herb Williams 18455
8. Jermaine O'Neal 17997
9. Billy Knight 17787
10. Mel Daniels* 17756


Field Goal Attempts
1. Reggie Miller* 17499
2. Rik Smits 10461
3. Billy Knight 8235
4. Jermaine O'Neal 7973
5. Roger Brown 7852
6. George McGinnis 7822
7. Chuck Person 7820
8. Mel Daniels* 7666
9. Freddie Lewis 7627
10. Herb Williams 757

You'll notice that Danny Granger is on neither of those lists, so is it safe to say that Danny has scored more points while taking fewer shots in less min. on the floor for the Pacers than the above players.

Nobody was highlighted to make a point or anything. :devil:


Oh man, you are hurting people's arguments with stats here.

ChicagoJ
03-03-2013, 08:40 PM
Oh man, you are hurting people's arguments with stats here.


I get something different out of those.

George McGinnis, Chuck Person, Billy Knight and the guy Peck despises really made signficant marks on the Pacers' career record books in spite of spending a lot of their careers elsewhere. Neither Big Mac nor Rifleman were in the top ten in minutes but were up there in FGAs (and scoring average, and Big Mac in the top-ten in total points and I think Chuck is #11 or #12 in a lot less seasons than most of the guys ahead of him on the list).

Oh, and one other thing is clear, it wasn't really Vern's or Dale's job to shoot the ball. Their minutes were high because of their other contributions, not all of which were measured with statistics, but certainly both were accomplished with professionalism, class, and toughness.

BRushWithDeath
03-04-2013, 11:30 AM
Oh man, you are hurting people's arguments with stats here.

Jermaine O'Neal was a better Pacer than Danny Granger because of the things involved with the game that aren't scoring.

But still, the lists Peck posted, and the implied notion behind them, is misleading at best. Because of 3's and FT percentage Granger has scored 0.1 more points per attempt than O'Neal but they've attempted shots at the same rate. Purely scoring wise, they've had pretty similar careers.

Jermaine O'Neal:
Minutes played - 17,997
Field goal attempts - 7,973
FGA per minute - 0.4
Total points - 9,580
Point per FGA -1.2

Danny Granger:
Minutes played - 17,027
Field goal attempts - 7,230
FGA per minute - 0.4
Total points - 9,329
Point per FGA - 1.3