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View Full Version : Best Bargains in the NBA by Bill Simmons



Trader Joe
03-01-2013, 02:13 PM
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9002028/the-best-bargains-nba

Lance is mentioned.


Lance Stephenson (Pacers): 2 years, $1.9 millionWait a second LANCE STEPHENSON???? I know, I can't believe it either. Thanks to Danny Granger's injury, Stephenson somehow evolved into a fearless defender/athlete/wild card for a suddenly dangerous Pacers team. How good are they when they play George Hill, Paul George, David West, Roy Hibbert and Stephenson together? Their points-per-100-possessions and plus/minus stats are relatively staggering when compared to the most-used lineups by the four other contenders.
Hill-George-Stephenson-West-Hibbert: 877 mins, +240, 1.10 scored, 0.96 allowed.
Westbrook-Sefolosha-KD-Ibaka-Perkins: 852.4 mins, +147, 1.10 scored, 1.01 allowed.
Chalmers-Wade-LBJ-Bosh-Haslem: 445 mins, +120, 1.14 scored, 1.01 allowed.
Parker-Green-Leonard-Splitter-Duncan: 222.8 mins, +104, 1.08 scored, 0.85 allowed.
Paul-Green-Butler-Griffin-Jordan: 519.2 mins,+73, 1.13 scored, 1.06 allowed.
(So yeah LANCE STEPHENSON!!!!)

The Legend strikes again.

90'sNBARocked
03-01-2013, 02:25 PM
Nice find

We need to keep it quiet so it doenst inflate his price :)

Kstat
03-01-2013, 02:31 PM
Lebron being #1 on his list at $18 million a season is shockingly accurate. In a truly open market, LeBron really could fetch $75 million annually if he wanted to max out to the highest bidder.

Trader Joe
03-01-2013, 02:32 PM
Lebron being #1 on his list at $18 million a season is shockingly accurate.

I mean it's true. Lebron could demand any contract he wanted if there weren't rules in place. Look what he did with those crappy Cleveland teams. He was probably a +30 win difference to those teams.

Kstat
03-01-2013, 02:36 PM
I mean it's true. Lebron could demand any contract he wanted if there weren't rules in place. Look what he did with those crappy Cleveland teams. He was probably a +30 win difference to those teams.

Well, the fact the Value of the Miami heat has gone from $364 million to $625 million since lebron signed there is probably a bigger statement.

Trader Joe
03-01-2013, 02:38 PM
Well, the fact the Value of the Miami heat has gone from $364 million to $625 million since lebron signed there is probably a bigger statement.

True as well. And the weird thing is I feel like Lebron has actually appeared in less outside ads since arriving in Miami. He is a force of nature recently specifically because of basketball. Meaning I don't feel like Lebron's media impact is even in the same spot as say a Jordan or a Manning or maybe even a Jeter.

cdash
03-01-2013, 03:07 PM
Unpopular opinion alert: LeBron will retire as the greatest basketball player who ever lived. I'm including you, Miguel Jordan.

Sollozzo
03-01-2013, 03:23 PM
Unpopular opinion alert: LeBron will retire as the greatest basketball player who ever lived. I'm including you, Miguel Jordan.

He's hasn't even had a better career than Kobe yet. Granted Kobe had a seven year head start on him, but Kobe nevertheless has still had the better career so far.

Jordan had two separate three-peats, the later of which was achieved when he was in his mid 30's. He was still completely dominating the league as an old guy and willing his teams to championships. I'll eat my hat if Lebron ever does something as impressive.

BRushWithDeath
03-01-2013, 03:24 PM
He's hasn't even had a better career than Kobe yet. Granted Kobe had a seven year head start on him, but Kobe nevertheless has still had the better career so far.

Jordan had two separate three-peats, the later of which was achieved when he was in his mid 30's. He was still completely dominating the league as an old guy and willing his teams to championships. I'll eat my hat if Lebron ever does something as impressive.

Kobe has had a better career so far. He's also never been nearly as good as Lebron is right now.

SIR-LANCE-ALOT
03-01-2013, 03:33 PM
hopefully after next year we will be able to keep our core together, lance,pg24,hibbert,west and hill

cdash
03-01-2013, 03:37 PM
He's hasn't even had a better career than Kobe yet. Granted Kobe had a seven year head start on him, but Kobe nevertheless has still had the better career so far.

Jordan had two separate three-peats, the later of which was achieved when he was in his mid 30's. He was still completely dominating the league as an old guy and willing his teams to championships. I'll eat my hat if Lebron ever does something as impressive.

He's got plenty of time to do it. Time will tell. I said by the time he retires, which you would have to think is still 8-10 years from now. A lot can happen between now and then.

Kstat
03-01-2013, 03:42 PM
He's got a long, long ways to go before he can surpass Jordan's absurd record of success. His sub-.500 finals record wasn't a great start.

Lebron: 6-9

Jordan: 24-11

Lebron would have to win 18 of his next 20 finals games just to equal that.

Lance George
03-01-2013, 03:42 PM
LeBron still has a long ways to go to catch Jordan. Personally, I don't think he'll do it, although I'm fully aware that many people, overeager to claim a new GOAT, will say that he has.

Lance looks incredible at times. I've said it before, but his skill-level, coupled with the level of passion he plays with, is the makings of something special. I just hope we're prepared to keep him on the team, long-term.

Derek2k3
03-01-2013, 03:43 PM
The whole article was surprisingly enjoyable.

The players really did get screwed in the lockout. Everyone needs to remember this next season when we creep into another one.

vnzla81
03-01-2013, 03:47 PM
Bench him.

Sollozzo
03-01-2013, 03:50 PM
He's got plenty of time to do it. Time will tell. I said by the time he retires, which you would have to think is still 8-10 years from now. A lot can happen between now and then.

He might play for 8-10 more years, but he can't possibly have too many years left of prime physical explosiveness. He's 28 now, which is about the age where most of the greats peak. It's all downhill physically once you hit the early 30's. Not even Lebron can avoid that. I think he'll still be a great player in his 30's, but it will indeed be interesting to see how he compensates once he loses a bit of that physical explosiveness. What impresses me most about Jordan and Kobe is how they stayed dominant in their 30's.

Will Galen
03-01-2013, 03:52 PM
Unpopular opinion alert: LeBron will retire as the greatest basketball player who ever lived. I'm including you, Miguel Jordan.

The way I look at it you never know. By the time LeBron retires there may be someone playing that everyone thinks is better.

cdash
03-01-2013, 03:53 PM
He's got a long, long ways to go before he can surpass Jordan's absurd record of success. His sub-.500 finals record wasn't a great start.

Lebron: 6-9

Jordan: 24-11

Lebron would have to win 18 of his next 20 finals games just to equal that.

Welp, armed with this information, I change my mind. What's Russell's Finals record?

Sollozzo
03-01-2013, 03:58 PM
The way I look at it you never know. By the time LeBron retires there may be someone playing that everyone thinks is better.

I think the obsession with "crowning the next Jordan" gets ridiculous. I don't think we'll ever see anyone who owns the league to the extent 45 did. Lebron wins one championship and everyone is ready to put him right there with Jordan. Yes Lebron is having a tremendous season this year, but I don't think it's head and shoulders better than some of those Cleveland years. In fact, I would still say that his 08-09 and 09-10 seasons in Cleveland were more impressive than this one because the quality of those rosters was significantly worse than what he has in Miami right now.

Doddage
03-01-2013, 04:02 PM
I think the obsession with "crowning the next Jordan" gets ridiculous. I don't think we'll ever see anyone who owns the league to the extent 45 did.
I prefer the 23 version myself.

Since86
03-01-2013, 04:05 PM
I think the obsession with "crowning the next Jordan" gets ridiculous. I don't think we'll ever see anyone who owns the league to the extent 45 did. Lebron wins one championship and everyone is ready to put him right there with Jordan. Yes Lebron is having a tremendous season this year, but I don't think it's head and shoulders better than some of those Cleveland years. In fact, I would still say that his 08-09 and 09-10 seasons in Cleveland were more impressive than this one because the quality of those rosters was significantly worse than what he has in Miami right now.


I think what MJ did gets forgotten. His list of accomplishments makes most players that are put in the GOAT convo blush.

BRushWithDeath
03-01-2013, 04:09 PM
The greatest basketball player of all-time and the most accomplished basketball player of all-time are not the same thing. They could be the same person, but they do not have to be.

cdash
03-01-2013, 04:10 PM
For the record, I haven't forgotten any of MJ's accomplishments. But the way some people around here talk is that no one will ever be able to top or equal Jordan, ever, no matter what they do. It's become a reflex to immediately scoff at the notion of anyone other than Jordan being the GOAT. Am I saying it will for sure happen? No. Am I saying it's likely that it will happen? No. It's just my opinion. I watched Jordan tear through the NBA in the 90s, I watched his impact firsthand, I just think LeBron is the only player in the league right now who can possibly reach that level.

Since86
03-01-2013, 04:16 PM
For the record, I haven't forgotten any of MJ's accomplishments.

My comment wasn't directed at you, or anyone else in particular, btw.

I was completely guilty of it. Some friends and I got into a 3am drunken argument over it one night, and even with the booze, it was a sobering convo once real numbers/accomplishments got brought into the discussion, rather than arguing with emotion.

MJ definitely isn't untouchable, but the bar is set pretty damn high. Maybe I'm projecting me onto others, but time dulls our memories.

Sollozzo
03-01-2013, 04:21 PM
For the record, I haven't forgotten any of MJ's accomplishments. But the way some people around here talk is that no one will ever be able to top or equal Jordan, ever, no matter what they do. It's become a reflex to immediately scoff at the notion of anyone other than Jordan being the GOAT. Am I saying it will for sure happen? No. Am I saying it's likely that it will happen? No. It's just my opinion. I watched Jordan tear through the NBA in the 90s, I watched his impact firsthand, I just think LeBron is the only player in the league right now who can possibly reach that level.


I actually think that Kobe was getting to a point where he was at least sniffing Jordan a bit after that 2010 championship. Those back to back championships (and three straight Finals appearances) were very impressive. Lebron hasn't yet done anything as impressive.

I can think of few things in modern sports that are as impressive as a three-peat. Jordan did it twice. Team success is important when judging individual greatness in basketball because a basketball player has the ability to impact both ends of the floor and do as much as they want on the offensive end. The Bulls successes were because of Jordan.

cdash
03-01-2013, 04:26 PM
time dulls our memories.

Let's focus on this, because I disagree a little bit. I think Jordan has been romanticized to a certain extent. The Legend of Jordan has continued to grow over the years, to the point where an entire week was spent talking about his 50th birthday and all of his questionable character flaws are now twisted into the overall narrative of what made him so great. I'm not saying there's no reason for this, because there is, but I don't really think Jordan's accomplishments have been forgotten. I also don't think people are ready to annoint the "next Jordan" so much as he is the golden standard for what basketball players strive to be. He's the best, so great players will naturally be compared to the best. It's inevitable.

Whereas you look at LeBron, and we have a tendency to focus on the negative with him a little more because he's not entirely likeable and because he has made some puzzling PR moves. But as a basketball player, what he's done on the court the past few seasons has been incredible. He can legitimatelly shut down four positions on the court defensively (for as great as MJ was, he didn't have physical gifts that LeBron has), and guard the fifth position respectably. Does he have the will to be great and make others great and just win, win, win like Jordan had? It doesn't look like it. But even as great as Kobe was, I never felt he could reach Jordan's level. At least with LeBron, I think it's possible. We haven't seen anyone dominate the NBA like LeBron is this season (and last season, really) since Shaq's FU seasons when he actually gave a **** about what kind of shape he was in.

Rogco
03-01-2013, 04:26 PM
Unpopular opinion alert: LeBron will retire as the greatest basketball player who ever lived. I'm including you, Miguel Jordan.

Don't know if that's true or not, but I do know watching Lebron live at the BLF last year in the playoffs was truly impressive. Saw Jordan live in the playoffs a long time ago, so it's hard to remember, but my impression is more of being annoyed by him because he got crap calls than awed by him, and that Toni Kukoc played a better game. With Lebron, he just seemed like the best player on the court.

Rogco
03-01-2013, 04:29 PM
cdash brought up a good point. Jordan might be the best player ever, Lebron might be close, but Shaq in his prime is the most dominating player I've ever seen. Not nearly the most talented, but when he was fit no one could even come close to his shear size and strength.

Since86
03-01-2013, 04:31 PM
Let's focus on this, because I disagree a little bit. I think Jordan has been romanticized to a certain extent. The Legend of Jordan has continued to grow over the years, to the point where an entire week was spent talking about his 50th birthday and all of his questionable character flaws are now twisted into the overall narrative of what made him so great. I'm not saying there's no reason for this, because there is, but I don't really think Jordan's accomplishments have been forgotten. I also don't think people are ready to annoint the "next Jordan" so much as he is the golden standard for what basketball players strive to be. He's the best, so great players will naturally be compared to the best. It's inevitable.

Whereas you look at LeBron, and we have a tendency to focus on the negative with him a little more because he's not entirely likeable and because he has made some puzzling PR moves. But as a basketball player, what he's done on the court the past few seasons has been incredible. He can legitimatelly shut down four positions on the court defensively (for as great as MJ was, he didn't have physical gifts that LeBron has), and guard the fifth position respectably. Does he have the will to be great and make others great and just win, win, win like Jordan had? It doesn't look like it. But even as great as Kobe was, I never felt he could reach Jordan's level. At least with LeBron, I think it's possible. We haven't seen anyone dominate the NBA like LeBron is this season (and last season, really) since Shaq's FU seasons when he actually gave a **** about what kind of shape he was in.


I agree with that. Depends more where your starting point is in the discussion. I think this probably deals more with people on the ends of the spetrum.

I like LeBron, the player. What he does is jaw dropping. I think I've seen two triple doubles by him, and I didn't even think he played that well the first time. Once you're up as high as him and MJ, the world probably looks like the point of a pen.

cdash
03-01-2013, 04:42 PM
cdash brought up a good point. Jordan might be the best player ever, Lebron might be close, but Shaq in his prime is the most dominating player I've ever seen. Not nearly the most talented, but when he was fit no one could even come close to his shear size and strength.

They changed the rules of the game for Shaq. Since this is a Simmons article I will go back to something he says: Chris Webber was always one of the woulda/coulda/shoulda guys in NBA history. I think it was Shaq. If he had taken care of his body longer he could have absolutely dominated the NBA for much longer than he did. I remember watching that 1999-2000 Lakers team and thinking there was no way anyone was beating them if they played well. Shaq dominated, and when he didn't, he would swing it out to Kobe who would do the rest. I'm amazed we took them to 6 games in the Finals, honestly.

Sollozzo
03-01-2013, 05:01 PM
They changed the rules of the game for Shaq. Since this is a Simmons article I will go back to something he says: Chris Webber was always one of the woulda/coulda/shoulda guys in NBA history. I think it was Shaq. If he had taken care of his body longer he could have absolutely dominated the NBA for much longer than he did. I remember watching that 1999-2000 Lakers team and thinking there was no way anyone was beating them if they played well. Shaq dominated, and when he didn't, he would swing it out to Kobe who would do the rest. I'm amazed we took them to 6 games in the Finals, honestly.

And we were this close >< to tying the series up in game 4. It took a Jordan-esque (as long as we're comparing people to Jordan) performance from a young Mamba to seal that game in OT while Shaq was fouled out on the bench.

OlBlu
03-01-2013, 05:08 PM
Nice find

We need to keep it quiet so it doenst inflate his price :)

Too late for that. The other teams have seen him play......:cool: ...

Downtown Bang!
03-01-2013, 05:35 PM
Jordan wasn't always talked about with extreme reverence. Playoff exits at the hands of the Pistons & Celtics brought questions. Like Lebron he didn't win his first championship until age 28 either.

Given the lack of talent on those Cavs teams Lebron has a pretty good resume compared to Jordan at this stage of his career. Ultimately I don't think he will get that level of winning but it is not impossible. Especially with the star "buddy system" that is developing in todays game.

kielbeze
03-01-2013, 05:53 PM
Why is it that when we discuss who the best player ever is nobody ever brings up Harold Miner?

cdash
03-01-2013, 05:56 PM
Why is it that when we discuss who the best player ever is nobody ever brings up Harold Miner?

:laugh:

When I was typing out one of my responses above, I actually did reference that I wasn't exactly talking about a Harold Miner-type here. One of the all-time greats, for sure.

LetsTalkPacers84
03-01-2013, 06:07 PM
Lebron is a better player than Jordan. No question to me. But Jordan will always be the bigger legend with a better career. No one will ever get out from Jordan's shadow.

CooperManning
03-01-2013, 10:15 PM
Sidenote Lebron discussion: Where does he go to win more rings after he leaves Miami? Whether it's soon or whether it's later, does anyone really think Lebron is gonna retire with the Heat? He has min. seven years left, probably more. Hate to say it as a Pacer fan, but it's not that hard to imagine Lebron ending up with 5-7 rings total. Especially if he plays till he's 38, 39, which seems possible since he's a freak of nature and all.

solid
03-01-2013, 11:22 PM
If I got first pick I'll go with a prime Jordon over LBJ.

Jordon had a great game!
Might be an even closer call between Him and Oscar who outscored, out rebounded, and out assited him, more often than not.

And I'm not so sure either would be my first pick in a league.

Big guys dominate a game where iron hangs high.

Bill Russel would be an excellent first pick. As would Wilt of course... Shaq and Jabar may also be a better first pick.

After that I'm thinkin Jordon or Olajuan.

Because there is a pretty big drop off between the centers that are left and I'd roll with Wilt and Kobe or Russel and Bird over Jordon and what ever center you may get at number 12. Jordon and Walton?

Great but Not quite.

It's a team game so I take my selections in that context.

Get your BIG first!

Wow just posted and looked at thread name. Did I get lost or what?
:buddies:

Slumdog Millonario
03-01-2013, 11:57 PM
Let's get this thread back on track ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJQjxA38LtI

Lance has been such a beast this season. I'm glad he's had a chance to break out and hopefully he teams with PG to become the deadliest wing tandem in the NBA for the next decade!

PS...make sure you watch that vid in HD.

hackashaq
03-02-2013, 08:44 AM
It's nice to see Lance getting some props lately. It seems like it started with that great Arnowitz article about the Pacers' starting unit.

That said, Simmons by definition skips most 1st rounders, expirings and guys with good extensions, so it's a weird ranking.. Not sure i understand its purpose.

vincognito
03-02-2013, 09:39 AM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/C1fjpLZ2gV8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

aceace
03-02-2013, 01:49 PM
I don't think we are even close to seeing what Lance can do. There are times when he just looks like the best player on the floor. These are still few and far between. Don't remember the exact game, but he had several great passes and scores over about 6 minute time frame and then was T'ed up for a flagrant 1. That seemed to disrupt the flow he was in. These moments are now starting to happen more often. I think Lance will be an All-Star someday but that's a couple years away. Lance has great basketball smarts.

Downtown Bang!
03-02-2013, 02:04 PM
Lance could be the "X" factor for the Pacers in the playoffs. Especially if he can play effeciently against other teams second units on the road.

I also firmly believe that his scruffy mohawk and intense scowl makes him a shoe in for a role in any Mad Max/Road Warrior remake.