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Unclebuck
03-01-2013, 08:08 AM
The Heat would be the favorite, that is for sure and yes I agree the Pacers will have to beat two other teams most likely before they get toi the Heat. But it seems rather strange that Bob thinks the only shot the Pacers have at beating the Heat is to not start Granger. Bob thinks that is the key. Of all the things he could have mentioned, that is what he chose as the key to beating the Heat. OK

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130228/SPORTS15/302280084/Kravitz-Newsflash-folks-Pacers-not-ready-beat-Miami-Heat-playoffs (http://www.indystar.com/article/20130228/SPORTS15/302280084/Kravitz-Newsflash-folks-Pacers-not-ready-beat-Miami-Heat-playoffs)

Pacers not ready to beat Miami Heat in playoffs, says Bob Kravitz


There is this growing perception the Pacers are a quiet team that’s dangerously lying in the weeds, ready to shock the world and ruin the Miami Heat’s second straight run at an NBA title. One national writer, Indy born-and-raised Jason Whitlock, recently rolled out lots of “Gamehttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.indystar.com/article/20130228/SPORTS15/302280084/Kravitz-Newsflash-folks-Pacers-not-ready-beat-Miami-Heat-playoffs#) of Thrones’’ references and referred to the emerging star Paul George as a “baby dragon’’ while suggesting the Pacers have the Heat’s number.

A word about that:

Nope.

As much as I like what the Pacers have built, what they’ve done sincethat 10-11 start and the way they’re playing right now — the exception being Thursday night’s 99-91 loss to the Los Angeles Clippers — they’re not beating the Heat in a seven-game series.
Don’t tell me the Heat are 0-5 against the Grizzlies, Pacers and Knicks and have lost by an average of 16.2 points per game. That’s regular season. Which means nothing to LeBron and D-Wade.

Here’s what locals conveniently forget when they recall last year’s playoff run:

Not only did they beat the Magic without Dwight Howard, but Chris Bosh missed most of the Miami series with an abdominal injury, playing just 16 minutes. The Heat still won in six gameshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.indystar.com/article/20130228/SPORTS15/302280084/Kravitz-Newsflash-folks-Pacers-not-ready-beat-Miami-Heat-playoffs#).

Everybody is talking already about a possible Miami-Indiana match-up like it’s predestined, but I’d be leery of teams the Pacers might have to play before they reach that series.

The Boston Celtics, a possible first-round opponent, have played better since Rajon Rondo was injured. The Atlanta Hawks always have given the Pacers trouble. The Brooklyn Nets are very dangerous, especially when Deron Williams is playing at or near the top of his game. And the Knicks are a brutal matchup — notwithstanding a recent Pacers blowout victory over New York — because the Knicks bring J.R. Smith and Amar’e Stoudemire off the bench.

Are the Pacers better this year? Absolutely, they are. This year, George is playing at an All-Star level and Lance Stephenson has become a very solid complementary rotation guy. They’re also much better at the backup center spot with Ian Mahinmi.

Here’s what continues to scare me, though, in a series against the Heat: that Indiana bench.

(For the record, the bench got outscored 43-16 Thursday night, but it wasn’t the only culprit. Think this team doesn’t miss Roy Hibbert on the defensive end? The Clips finished with 50 points in the paint, and Blake Griffin had a dunk so heavenly, he still hasn’t come down and touched the ground.)

I still don’t trust D.J. Augustin, scoreless Thursday, who spent the first part of the season in the tank.

I still don’t trust Tyler Hansbrough, also scoreless Thursday, who hasn’t grown his offensive game.

I still don’t know what they’re going to get from Stephenson if he’s asked to adjust to life as an alpha dog off the bench.

And I know what I’m going to get from Gerald Green, which is absolutely nothing.

I would have made a deal at the deadline. I would have made a move to get J.J. Redick, even if it meant giving up a first-rounder for a three-month rental. He could have been a difference maker coming off the bench, and it would have sent a message to fans that the Pacers are absolutely, positively going for a title. This is a weak draft anyway; what are they going to add picking in the late 20s, anyway?

So how do they rectify the bench issue?

For the longest time, I’ve agreed with Pacers coach Frank Vogel: Start out using Danny Granger off the bench, then move him back into the starting lineup while sending Stephenson to the second unit.

Well.

I’m changing my tune.

And I’m glad to hear that Vogel is keeping an open mind.

“I’m inclined to get him back into the starting lineup,’’ Vogel said recently. “But we’ll look at it on a daily and weekly basis and see what happens.’’

He should.

Because early in the Pacers’ loss to the Clippers, Granger looked like he absolutely belonged on the court with the second-teamers, giving the Pacers a high-scoring option off the bench they would otherwise lack. After going 2-of-17 his first two games back from injury, Granger looked a little bit like Granger, scoring 12 points in 19 minutes.
“I’ll embrace any role they have for me,’’ he said Thursday night. “But right now, I’m a long way away. It’s going to be a couple of weeks, maybe a month. I hit some shots, but I’m only 65 percent at this point. My legs and my wind still aren’t there.’’

If the Pacers keep winning with Stephenson starting and Granger coming off the bench, why mess with a good thing? Why not use Granger the way the Oklahoma City Thunder used James Harden, the way the Spurs use Manu Ginobili? Why not take advantage of the fact George has turned into a rising star in this league, and give that second unit the kind of dynamic scorer it so desperately needs?

Put it this way: It’s the only shot they have of beating the Heat.

The only shot.

Cactus Jax
03-01-2013, 08:24 AM
The sky is falling, because they lost 1 game without their starting center!

graphic-er
03-01-2013, 08:32 AM
The sky is falling, because they lost 1 game without their starting center!

I know right? Hey the one time Bob Kravitz was in the house and the Pacers lost, he writes a reactionary article damning us to failure. Go figure.

idioteque
03-01-2013, 08:35 AM
Kravitz just wants to get people mad and unite them behind the team. Works for me.

BPump33
03-01-2013, 08:42 AM
Hey, people are starting to get behind the Pacers. I better slam the door in their face.

Cactus Jax
03-01-2013, 08:45 AM
This is probably my favorite line.

"And the Knicks are a brutal matchup — notwithstanding a recent Pacers blowout victory over New York — because the Knicks bring J.R. Smith and Amar’e Stoudemire off the bench."

Even though the Pacers destroyed them, theyre an awful matchup...I'm more worried about the first round against Celtics or whoever not named Milwaukee, than I would be if Pacers had homecourt against Knicks in 2nd round.

owl
03-01-2013, 08:48 AM
Kravitz wrote...."As much as I like what the Pacers have built, what they’ve done sincethat 10-11 start and the way they’re playing right now — the exception being Thursday night’s 99-91 loss to the Los Angeles Clippers — they’re not beating the Heat in a seven-game series.
Don’t tell me the Heat are 0-5 against the Grizzlies, Pacers and Knicks and have lost by an average of 16.2 points per game. That’s regular season. Which means nothing to LeBron and D-Wade."

This part has some truth in it. Lebron and Wade will ratchet up the offensive pressure. They will attack and they
have the quickness to force the refs to call fouls. The Clippers are very quick and that was a problem last night.
Especially the pick and roll with Paul. He ate the Pacers alive last night. I would like to see PG on him at various times to stop some of what he did.

OlBlu
03-01-2013, 08:52 AM
I have never been a Kravitz fan but this is a very good article and I think he is exactly correct about all of it. I know the "fans" here won't tolerate anything less than absolute adoration and cheerleading for the Pacers but this is a step-back-and-think article that should make sense to most people who watch the games. It won't, of course, be cause "fans" are intolerant of any criticism of their beloved team. Some real fans will read the article and realize that Kravitz is right about all of it......:cool: ...

Trader Joe
03-01-2013, 08:53 AM
Kravitz is one of the funniest journalists I've come across. He's spent the past month hyping the Pacers. One loss at home without your starting center (and a guy who clearly should be getting some DPOY pub) and he decides to write we can't beat the Heat, which maybe it's true, but we didn't even play the Heat yesterday

Ace E.Anderson
03-01-2013, 09:02 AM
The sky is falling, because they lost 1 game without their starting center!

Lol I've never seen so much negativity from losing to an elite team..FOLLOWING a 5 game winning streak where we were downright DOMINANT!

We are going to lose some games ppl, it's okay.

Goyle
03-01-2013, 09:02 AM
My favorite part is when he brings up Gerald as if he's in the rotation.

MTM
03-01-2013, 09:12 AM
I actually thought it was a fair article. The Clippers exposed the fact that as dominant as the Pacers have been since the break, the playoffs will bring out the best from really good teams. I think he is right that the Pacers might just not quite be there yet. If Hibbert plays against the Clips do the Pacers win that game? I don't think so - because except for some miraculous 3-point shooting and a 4th quarter flurry, that game should have been a double digit loss.

For some reason with the re-appearance of Danny, both Tyler and DJ have decided to disappear - hopefully it is just a thing, and not a trend.

I am not a big Kravitz fan and find his writing intentionally dramatic, but I think today's article was pretty spot on.

Slick Pinkham
03-01-2013, 09:14 AM
Kravitz has always been someone to reliably go "all in" on some opinion based on a sample size of one game. I guess it helps him meet his deadlines and all, but it is really silly

King Tuts Tomb
03-01-2013, 09:18 AM
I don't disagree with the premise, I don't think many people would, but the boring, inessential way Kravitz chose to present it. Peck's post game wrap ups are so much funnier, more incisive and creative that it's almost embarrassing to read stuff like this from a professional writer. You're a pro and a guy who's doing it for fun is writing laps around you.

Slick Pinkham
03-01-2013, 09:18 AM
If Hibbert plays against the Clips do the Pacers win that game? I don't think so - because except for some miraculous 3-point shooting and a 4th quarter flurry, that game should have been a double digit loss.


The first half was a continual display of Clippers scoring points in the paint. Roy's presence would have been huge. The second half there were other problems, but as poorly as the Clippers shot from the perimeter in the first half, I feel that with Roy in there we would have had a healthy lead at halftime. Who knows if we could have won, but we would not have been in that 17 point hole.

wintermute
03-01-2013, 09:38 AM
Yeah, the Heat being favorites against the Pacers isn't news... unless you've been drinking the Pacers kool-aid a little too heavily the past month.

Even stranger is that Kravitz is so sure of the solution - Danny Granger off the bench has the sample size of all of 2 games, and not particularly effective ones at that. Too early to conclude anything, but of course Kravitz can't write an article saying that.

Heisenberg
03-01-2013, 09:44 AM
I couldn't care less about Bob Kravitz's opinion about how to win a basketball game.

The quote from Danny about feeling like he's 65% is useful though. Guy definitely needs to get his conditioning up to par and not that he was every exactly a quick player but he has absolutely no burst on his drives.

Cousy47
03-01-2013, 09:45 AM
Well I felt BK, as usual, summed up the Pacers and solved most of their problems. Since we cannot ever beat the Heat, Celtics or Knicks in the playoffs, we should get rid of Granger, Hibbs, West, Green and anyone else who makes more than a million a year. Danny should go back on sick leave as he is giving people false hope with his play. Plus DG and PG can't co-exist since they play the same position. Krapvitz can only complain and bandwagon with the last game played. Thanks Bob.

fwpacerfan
03-01-2013, 09:59 AM
I think Kravitz had some good points but this looked like an article he had written a week ago as a rebuttal to Whitlock and he was just waiting for the right moment to roll it out. A loss to the Clippers afforded him that opportunity.

Ace E.Anderson
03-01-2013, 10:01 AM
“I’ll embrace any role they have for me,’’ he said Thursday night. “But right now, I’m a long way away. It’s going to be a couple of weeks, maybe a month. I hit some shots, but I’m only 65 percent at this point. My legs and my wind still aren’t there.’’


I thought this was pretty interesting. I know a lot of posters (won't name names :cool:) thought that Danny would complain if he had to come off the bench; which history would suggest would not be a problem.

Idk how I feel about him being brought off the bench, yes in the first half it looks good as he is able to be that units go-to scorer. But that puts a lot of pressure for him to shoot and score in bunches (which he has no problem with lol) because nobody else can really score effectively on their own -- minus OJ.

I'm somewhat a little more comfortable bringing him off the bench than I originally was, but I'd still want him finishing games.

Coopdog23
03-01-2013, 10:11 AM
Bob is just saying this because of how poorly we played last night. Don't think we'll have 13 first half TOs and we will have Roy which was cause Bosh and Haslem to play physical inside, which they don't like to do. Granger is progressing every game and he will be back to his old self soon. I just don't pay attention to his articles because they are mostly negative and unworthy to read

yoadknux
03-01-2013, 10:14 AM
I think he should start. He has been a starter his entire career, and it would be easier for him to adjust to his new role if he starts. Our best duo's last year (from NBA.COM) have been #1 Granger-George and #2 Granger-West (You can see it here: http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.html?TeamID=1610612754&Season=2011-12&GroupQuantity=2&sortField=PLUS_MINUS&sortOrder=DES)
Just limit his minutes until he goes back into form. I think Lance will also be a huge spark off the bench as he adds more speed and ball movement to our team, but Granger adds scoring and gives guys like George, West and Hibbert more room to operate.
When it's playoffs time we'll probably need Granger to play some minutes at the 4 anyway because the Heat, Knicks and Hawks tend to small ball. I'd rather see Danny guarding Lebron, Melo or Smith than West.

vnzla81
03-01-2013, 10:16 AM
I'm with Bob, I also don't understand why the Pacers are unwilling to give up their pick for a guy that can help them win it all, I guess they don't want to miss the next Plumlee? stupid.

Unclebuck
03-01-2013, 10:18 AM
So all the Pacers had to do to get JJ was give up their first round pick? Do we know that is all?

Didn't the magic get a better deal from the Bucks. I mean how much value is there in the 27th pick?

bunt
03-01-2013, 10:22 AM
I'm with Bob, I also don't understand why the Pacers are unwilling to give up their pick for a guy that can help them win it all, I guess they don't want to miss the next Plumlee? stupid.

Or maybe they don't want to miss the next George, or Stephenson, or Hansbrough, or Price or Johnson. But keep pointing out a rookie 50 games into his career as if he's the standard Pacers draft pick.

Eleazar
03-01-2013, 10:22 AM
When it comes to Granger and George all I really care about is that one of them is on the court at all times. Whether or not that is better served with Granger coming off the bench or not has yet to be seen.

As far as the Heat go, I think the Pacers should be the favorite in that match-up. Although, we won't be for obvious reasons.

presto123
03-01-2013, 10:22 AM
If the Pacers ever solve this being sloppy with the ball/turnover problem I would say we have an outside chance to beat the Heat. Right now I would say no. There is very little margin for error if you expect to beat those elite teams in a series. Not saying the Pacers can't be an elite team(right now they are on the verge with a couple more pieces) but I still think to come out of the East they will have to play their BEST basketball when it matters most. I am cautiously optimistic that they can do this. Sure going to be fun to watch I know that much and this is a bunch of guys that are easy to root for.

King Tuts Tomb
03-01-2013, 10:23 AM
I think some people are underestimating how important these next three years in the draft will be for the Pacers. If the Pacers hit on cheap talent then they can keep their big money invested in the starters. If they don't then it means they have to sign more expensive guys in free agency and it could end up costing a lot more in the future. You can't just toss these picks away for a rental.

BillS
03-01-2013, 10:25 AM
I'm with Bob, I also don't understand why the Pacers are unwilling to give up their pick for a guy that can help them win it all, I guess they don't want to miss the next Plumlee? stupid.

I seriously don't get this continuing claim that we could have gotten someone just for a pick. We're over the cap, we'd have to give a player as well, and I doubt that would have been Gerald Green or Miles Plumlee.

pacer4ever
03-01-2013, 10:27 AM
So all the Pacers had to do to get JJ was give up their first round pick? Do we know that is all?

Didn't the magic get a better deal from the Bucks. I mean how much value is there the 27th pick?

The Magic got a terrific haul IMO. Tobias Harris and Doron Lamb>>>> Than a late 1st rd pick. Only way I would of dealt Redick to Indiana if I am their GM is if Lance Stephenson is in the deal and obviously that would be a deal breaker. I was surprised the Magic got so much but then I remembered who they were trading with. The Bob Kraviz of GMs Hammond who is in win now mode every year terrible terrible GM.

Tom White
03-01-2013, 10:29 AM
The sky is falling, because they lost 1 game without their starting center!

Where did he even come close o saying that? Haven't many of us already expressed our reservations about DJ, GG & Tyler?

Sookie
03-01-2013, 10:33 AM
Kravitz wrote...."As much as I like what the Pacers have built, what they’ve done sincethat 10-11 start and the way they’re playing right now — the exception being Thursday night’s 99-91 loss to the Los Angeles Clippers — they’re not beating the Heat in a seven-game series.
Don’t tell me the Heat are 0-5 against the Grizzlies, Pacers and Knicks and have lost by an average of 16.2 points per game. That’s regular season. Which means nothing to LeBron and D-Wade."

This part has some truth in it. Lebron and Wade will ratchet up the offensive pressure. They will attack and they
have the quickness to force the refs to call fouls. The Clippers are very quick and that was a problem last night.
Especially the pick and roll with Paul. He ate the Pacers alive last night. I would like to see PG on him at various times to stop some of what he did.

I disagree.

The Heat really wanted to beat the Pacers. And Lebron and Wade played like they wanted to beat the Pacers. It wasn't "just a regular season game" to them. They did a lot of talking before the game..making it clear that not only were the Pacers inside their head, but that the game really mattered to them.

I think Kravitz is getting confused here. I don't think anyone would say the Pacers are the favorite to come out of the East. It is simply, if they are the team with the best shot to beat the Heat. And, IMO, a pretty good one.

As for Granger/Lance debate. (Although, I tend to lean towards seniority, but I suppose that's the college basketball fan coming out of me.) I'm one who honestly doesn't care who starts, but rather who finishes. And more often than not I think it'll be Hill, George, Granger, West, Hibbert. I also think, in terms of who helps where, if Danny gets back to himself, he's a better fit for the starting lineup. And I think OJ and Tyler will be better off playing with Lance. OJ's a good player to have next to Lance, and Tyler and Lance have good chemistry.

But it should be done slowly. Having Danny get minutes with the starters and Lance get minutes with the bench, gradually. And if, for whatever reason, it's not working out..we don't have to change it.

BornReady
03-01-2013, 10:33 AM
My favorite part is when he brings up Gerald as if he's in the rotation.

Who's Gerald?

Ace E.Anderson
03-01-2013, 10:36 AM
Once healthy, I think the presence of Danny with the starters could potentially help with the turnovers. His post up/mid-range game would be another wrinkle that we could throw at teams. As much as I love PG and Lance, they both like to ISO a bit much and if we aren't getting transition opportunities, it can bog down the offense a bit. PG has been a turnover MACHINE lately, so having a few set plays that brings Granger off a screen or puts him in the mid post, could help alleviate the constant ISO's that we run for Lance, PG and West. Just a thought.

Kid Minneapolis
03-01-2013, 10:42 AM
I'll take "Knee-jerk reactions for $200, Alex."

We just smoked the Heat, the Knicks, the Hawks, the Bulls a few weeks ago during an impressive stretch. The Clips aren't the best team in the league, just because they beat you once doesn't mean that they're better. YOu're not going to beat every team, every night. We had an off night, it was clearly evident. It didn't necessarily matter who we were playing, our guys just weren't sharp. It's just like I said at the beginning of the season when we started slow and everyone was jumping off cliffs --- be patient. Don't over-react. It was one loss, we weren't sharp, we were missing our defensive anchor in the paint. I can almost guarantee next time we play them, we win. You know the guys aren't happy about how they played, and Vogel isn't happy about the results and they are going to make the proper adjustments.

And what Kravitz said at the end of the article is exactly what I've been saying for weeks now. Keep Granger on the bench.

RWB
03-01-2013, 10:49 AM
Maybe Bob was upset there was over 18,000 in attendance and wanted to make sure that didn't happen again letting the casuals know not to show up in the future since the Pacers aren't good enough.

graphic-er
03-01-2013, 10:52 AM
And what Kravitz said at the end of the article is exactly what I've been saying for weeks now. Keep Granger on the bench.

Yeah but I dont' think anybody ever takes you seriously with that Avatar on a Pacer's forum. :-p

cinotimz
03-01-2013, 10:56 AM
Kravitz is probably right. Hes been writing a lot of fluff pieces lately on the Pacers. Kinda lost his way. Readership is probably down and he realized he neeeded to stir the pot. That being said, I promise you the Miami Heat are not looking forward to a series with the Pacers.

Sollozzo
03-01-2013, 11:03 AM
Maybe Bob was upset there was over 18,000 in attendance and wanted to make sure that didn't happen again letting the casuals know not to show up in the future since the Pacers aren't good enough.

I know that the boxscore says that it was a sellout of 18,165, but there were not that many butts in the seat. It was a very very good-sized crowd, but there were plenty of empty seats. Maybe there were 16,000-17,000 there? I'm bad at estimating the size of the crowd, I just know that not everyone who bought a ticket actually showed up. Not even close. The Pacers had a career fair yesterday and they gave people two complimentary tickets for going. So those tickets count as being "sold", even though there's no way all of those tickets were used. That being said, it was still a pretty good crowd.

doctor-h
03-01-2013, 11:10 AM
I think Kravitz is right on most of the things he said. Granger should come off the bench. The Pacers have a better record than they ever had with Granger starting. Why change that. Playoff seeding will be very important. You can't afford to lose games while the team gets used to playing with Danny in the starting lineup. Everyones roles would be more defined if you leave it as is. They should have made a move at the deadline but I don't agree that it had to be Reddick. Augustine is going to kill them in the playoffs. I for one would like to see them give Lance his minutes at backup PG. Last night in the Clippers game we had nobody creating for someone else. Lance can do that and he sees the floor better than anyone on the team. Everyone is worried that he will make too many mistakes. You can't be any worse than they were last night. In defense of DJ, he has played point his whole career and we take the ball out of his hands and make him stand at the 3 point line. He clearly is uncomfortable with that and can't help the team that way.

Tom White
03-01-2013, 11:15 AM
The Heat would be the favorite, that is for sure and yes I agree the Pacers will have to beat two other teams most likely before they get toi the Heat. But it seems rather strange that Bob thinks the only shot the Pacers have at beating the Heat is to not start Granger. Bob thinks that is the key. Of all the things he could have mentioned, that is what he chose as the key to beating the Heat. OK

I agree with this premise. In fact, I mentioned the idea in another thread. Granger would be lethal playing against the Heat's second unit, while the Pacers first unit has developed more firepower and cohesion. There are only so many shots to go around with any five guys on the floor. Danny's offense would be more greatly maximized playing with the second unit, instead of him & Paul & West & Hibbert trying to share available shots. If he is not used this way, who do you want getting those extra shots. And yes, I understand that the rotation is shortened and playing time for the main core is extended during the playoffs. But I do still like the idea. At the trade deadline many people were harping for a scorer to play off the bench. Well, the team has one if used this way.

Mind you, I'm not saying he should be used all the time this way. But vs. the Heat, I think it makes good sense.

Since86
03-01-2013, 11:16 AM
I think Kravitz is right on most of the things he said. Granger should come off the bench. The Pacers have a better record than they ever had with Granger starting. Why change that.

Granger should be deactivated. The Pacers have had a better record than they ever had with Granger playing. Why change that?

vnzla81
03-01-2013, 11:21 AM
I seriously don't get this continuing claim that we could have gotten someone just for a pick. We're over the cap, we'd have to give a player as well, and I doubt that would have been Gerald Green or Miles Plumlee.

It was reported that Orlando wanted a pick for Redick, other players were available for a pick, last year when the Pacers had cap space, pieces and picks they decided not to trade the pick for a "rental" again and instead decided to draft Miles Plumlee.

Just so you know one of those rentals last year(he had a player option this year) was Jamaal Crawford, you don't think Crawford makes a bigger impact on the Pacers than Plumlee? I do.

bballpacen
03-01-2013, 11:27 AM
I'm with Bob, I also don't understand why the Pacers are unwilling to give up their pick for a guy that can help them win it all, I guess they don't want to miss the next Plumlee? stupid.

Surprisingly you think the picture suck!! And you resort to throwing a hyperboles... we play 1 game without are starting center who's the anchor of the best defense in the NBA, and all the sudden we're no longer any good... if we have Hibbert we win that game, maybe not by 20 points like we have been, but we still win... CP3 does not hit those runners at the end of the game with Hibbert in the paint... what we witnessed tonight what's the true value of Roy Hibbert to the team... at full strength, this team can play with anybody...

vnzla81
03-01-2013, 11:31 AM
And getting Redick or somebody else to me would have been the right move because we don't really know how Danny is going to do, he was interviewed yesterday and he is saying that he is only at 65%, he is also saying that he is thinking about the knee 90% of the time and I can't remember who said it(Bruno?) but this person said that if this was the beginning of the year Danny would not be playing.

bballpacen
03-01-2013, 11:32 AM
It was reported that Orlando wanted a pick for Redick, other players were available for a pick, last year when the Pacers had cap space, pieces and picks they decided not to trade the pick for a "rental" again and instead decided to draft Miles Plumlee.

Just so you know one of those rentals last year(he had a player option this year) was Jamaal Crawford, you don't think Crawford makes a bigger impact on the Pacers than Plumlee? I do. Crawford THIS year makes a difference sure but, last year no way... Even if we traded for Crawford last year, he still will not be a pacer this year

vnzla81
03-01-2013, 11:38 AM
Crawford THIS year makes a difference sure but, last year no way... Even if we traded for Crawford last year, he still will not be a pacer this year

Last year no way? I disagree, he would have been a huge piece against Miami and like I said before Crawford had a player option for this year, he didn't pick his option because he didn't like Portland, I believe that Crawford stays here.

By the way Crawford was not only the only player that was available for a pick Kaman was another player we could have got.

doctor-h
03-01-2013, 11:39 AM
Where did he ever say we suck. You saying we win with Hibbert in the lineup is an assumption. Stop taking someone's words and twisting them. vnzla81 is right on the money. Plumlee was a wasted draft pick and has given us nothing. This is a year we could compete, we don't need a number 1 pick that gives us nothing.

Since86
03-01-2013, 11:44 AM
Last year no way? I disagree, he would have been a huge piece against Miami

So do you think that if the Pacers had Crawford last year, they would have beaten Miami?

Cubs231721
03-01-2013, 11:45 AM
I think Kravitz is right on most of the things he said. Granger should come off the bench. The Pacers have a better record than they ever had with Granger starting.

Just a note, but the Pacers record was better last year than this year so far. Not by very much, but they had a better winning percentage last year.

Cactus Jax
03-01-2013, 11:49 AM
Crawford was awful in Portland last season, I don't like the attitude of checking out on your team, and if I remember right caused a semi-mutiny that got their coach fired.

bballpacen
03-01-2013, 11:50 AM
Where did he ever say we suck. You saying we win with Hibbert in the lineup is an assumption. Stop taking someone's words and twisting them. vnzla81 is right on the money. Plumlee was a wasted draft pick and has given us nothing. This is a year we could compete, we don't need a number 1 pick that gives us nothing.

You saying that Plumlee is a wasted pick is an assumption... It is his first year (see Stephenson)... And further, we never had a number one pick... Nor do we have a former first pick on this squad. Also, to assume that we cannot compete right now is just as much of an assumption as I made at the moment... As well as Crawford being able to help us last year/this year/ever... So dont go saying that what I said is an assumption without recognizing that what you are saying and what anyone is saying is as well...

ChicagoJ
03-01-2013, 11:52 AM
I think its funny that some people can get past Bob's hyperbole and see that his opinions do have some substance.

Others get entirely worked up over the comments that he is using just to pull you in to the article in the first place.

How many posts in this thread say that he's written the entire article in reaction to last night's game?

When he actually said the following,


As much as I like what the Pacers have built, what they’ve done since that 10-11 start and the way they’re playing right now — the exception being Thursday night’s 99-91 loss to the Los Angeles Clippers — they’re not beating the Heat in a seven-game series

Is that actually wrong?

He makes a good point about Granger's role, because where we really lost to Miami last season was during the stretches wher Granger and George weren't both on the court together. Lance was not an option last year. Barbosa was awful in that series. Who was our other wing? Maybe some of you have already figured this out, but something clicked for me in that article that was different than how I was thinking about things...

I think a second unit of Granger, Mahini, Tyler and Augustin, where Granger still gets "starter" 32ish minutes, Mahini 20ish minutes and Tyler and DJ get 6-10 minutes each could be a much better rotation than what we put up against Miami last year.

bunt
03-01-2013, 11:55 AM
Where did he ever say we suck. You saying we win with Hibbert in the lineup is an assumption. Stop taking someone's words and twisting them. vnzla81 is right on the money. Plumlee was a wasted draft pick and has given us nothing. This is a year we could compete, we don't need a number 1 pick that gives us nothing.

Did you have similar thoughts when Lance was drafted? Because after all he only played in 12 games his rookie year. Was he a wasted pick back then?

The Pacers aren't the Lakers or Heat and don't operate with such a narrow minded focus. Their window to compete isn't just this year. If they start trading away picks for guys like Redick, only because they'd otherwise "waste" the pick like Plumlee(which is laughable), then the Pacers' current run will be over sooner rather than later.

PacersHomer
03-01-2013, 11:56 AM
Not only did they beat the Magic without Dwight Howard, but Chris Bosh missed most of the Miami series with an abdominal injury, playing just 16 minutes. The Heat still won in six games.


It's almost like last year's team is identical to this one's! Except Stephenson has become a player, Paul George is an All-Star, and Mahinmi replaces Amundson...

Stick to hockey, Bob.

Derek2k3
03-01-2013, 12:04 PM
Eh, whatever. I find I don't really care for most of what Bob writes, and he never brings any solid insights to the Pacers coverage. Leave it to Wells/Agness for me, Bobby isn't relevant.

He's just bored waiting for the draft :)

Derek2k3
03-01-2013, 12:04 PM
It's almost like last year's team is identical to this one's! Except Stephenson has become a player, Paul George is an All-Star, and Mahinmi replaces Amundson...

Stick to hockey, Bob.

*cough* and West is significantly more effective IMO.

The Big Smooth
03-01-2013, 12:05 PM
I have never been a Kravitz fan but this is a very good article and I think he is exactly correct about all of it. I know the "fans" here won't tolerate anything less than absolute adoration and cheerleading for the Pacers but this is a step-back-and-think article that should make sense to most people who watch the games. It won't, of course, be cause "fans" are intolerant of any criticism of their beloved team. Some real fans will read the article and realize that Kravitz is right about all of it......:cool: ...

I still don't understand how someone can claim to be a fan of a team, while only having negative things to say.

Kravitz doesn't believe this crap. He just needs people to visit IndyStar.com. It's amazing that people think this is serious analysis. Kravitz's job is to get traffic. Ask Skip Bayless what the best way to get attention is.

Pacergeek
03-01-2013, 12:09 PM
I don't want to come across as being negative, but I don't think we will beat Miami this year. Next season, assuming all of our key players return, will be our title run. If Miami wins the East this year, this would be their 3rd straight year winning the conference. From a historical perspective, the last time a team has won their conference four years in a row, was the Lakers from 1982 - 1985. Next year the Pacers will have all the experience and talent to get Indianapolis a long overdue NBA championship. History will be heavily against Miami in 2013-2014

Phree Refill
03-01-2013, 12:14 PM
All I ever hear about why we won't beat the Heat is "Just wait till playoff time. LeWade will take it up a whole 'nother level." Fine. I can accept that. But is it completely unreasonable to think that just maybe at least one of our guys will play at a heightened level as well? People act like what we see on the floor right now is what we'll get come playoff time. The new PG or this season's fully recovered David West aren't capable of shifting into another gear?

5_7_Clash
03-01-2013, 12:20 PM
In his own inimitable way (needlessly douchey), I think Kravitz is basically saying "We're a good team. Really good, even, but our bench still is not what it should be." Which I agree with 100%. If the Clippers game showed us anything (aside from the real value of Hibbert's contract), it was this.

I can't say that bringing Danny off the bench for the remainder of this season is a bad idea. He's basically that missing piece in the second unit that's been discussed for a while now. He'll make all those guys better.

Gold
03-01-2013, 12:31 PM
I'd agree with the article if he stuck to the premise of the title. "Pacers are not ready to beat the Heat." because the Pacers aren't the best they can be yet. This article, however says "There's no way the Pacers can beat the heat in a series this year. It's impossible and there is no way they'll get good enough to do so"

And then there's this whole idea

-"THE WINS AGAINST THE HEAT IN THE REGULAR SEASON DON'T MATTER, GUYS! LOL"
-writes a negative article that probably wouldn't have been written after a win

Mr.ThunderMakeR
03-01-2013, 12:40 PM
Chris Bosh is the most over-rated player by people who don't understand basketball (besides what the ESPN hype machine tells them).

If Danny Granger returns to anywhere near the player he used to be, then the idea of bringing him off the bench is lunacy. You don't bring your 1st or 2nd, or even 3rd best player off the bench. The only team to try that was OKC, and well, Scott Brooks is an idiot.

ChicagoJ
03-01-2013, 12:45 PM
Chris Bosh is the most over-rated player by people who don't understand basketball (besides what the ESPN hype machine tells them).

If Danny Granger returns to anywhere near the player he used to be, then the idea of bringing him off the bench is lunacy. You don't bring your 1st or 2nd, or even 3rd best player off the bench. The only team to try that was OKC, and well, Scott Brooks is an idiot.

Ginoboli?

Well, I guess it really hasn't worked for SA either. When they try it in the regular season, yes. But it blows up in the playoffs.

(And completely agree in your assessment of Bosh. The Pacers are better off if Bosh plays because that makes Miami even softer against our BAMF.)

Sparhawk
03-01-2013, 12:45 PM
I at least agree with his assessment of DJ, Tyler and Green.

BillS
03-01-2013, 12:48 PM
There are two things that are simply truths to be kept in mind until the last game of the Finals:

1) The defending champions should be considered likely to repeat barring significant changes in their team or other teams.
2) Whatever needed to be done to beat them the previous year hasn't been proven until it is actually done.

From that standpoint, it is perfectly correct to begin with the assumption that the Pacers aren't ready to beat the Heat.

However, using that starting point as the conclusion and saying the Pacers WON'T beat the Heat begins to smack of just not bothering to play the games and going straight to the award ceremony from the last game of the regular season.

Let's play the games.

Trader Joe
03-01-2013, 12:48 PM
If all the moves that were available to the Pacers were made and were actually available, Paul George wouldn't be in Indiana. There was a lot of speculation the Pacers could/would trade down in that draft.

PacerPenguins
03-01-2013, 12:52 PM
if y'all listened to what he said after the clippers game, he basically acted like the sky was falling. WE LOST 1 GAME WITHOUT OUR DOMINANT DEFENSIVE CENTER!!! COMON!

Johanvil
03-01-2013, 12:53 PM
Haven't read the responses to the article but I love the knee jerking stuff about it. I mean he criticizes the bench and specifically Tyler and DJ for being scoreless last night. I bet he would have come out with this article had the Pacers won and DJ and Tyler had scored double digits....

Coopdog23
03-01-2013, 12:53 PM
If all the moves that were available to the Pacers were made and were actually available, Paul George wouldn't be in Indiana. There was a lot of speculation the Pacers could/would trade down in that draft.

Thank God we didn't

Trader Joe
03-01-2013, 12:55 PM
Thank God we didn't

Right, well my point is we don't even know if we ever really wanted to. Rumors are just rumors

Coopdog23
03-01-2013, 12:56 PM
There are two things that are simply truths to be kept in mind until the last game of the Finals:

1) The defending champions should be considered likely to repeat barring significant changes in their team or other teams.
2) Whatever needed to be done to beat them the previous year hasn't been proven until it is actually done.

From that standpoint, it is perfectly correct to begin with the assumption that the Pacers aren't ready to beat the Heat.

However, using that starting point as the conclusion and saying the Pacers WON'T beat the Heat begins to smack of just not bothering to play the games and going straight to the award ceremony from the last game of the regular season.

Let's play the games.

But we should take in more that just what the stats say. The Pacers are the only team in the NBA that the Heat actually fear. Almost every other team in the league cannot beat them inside and make the games a physical, defensive battle that the Heat struggle in. We also are the one of very few teams that won't back down from them. The Pacers are the perfect kryptonite for the Heat. That's why i believe we are ready

purdue101
03-01-2013, 01:06 PM
Last year no way? I disagree, he would have been a huge piece against Miami and like I said before Crawford had a player option for this year, he didn't pick his option because he didn't like Portland, I believe that Crawford stays here.

By the way Crawford was not only the only player that was available for a pick Kaman was another player we could have got.

Crawford wanted a multi-year deal, which is why he opted out. It wasn't so much Portland. No way he picks up the option if we trade for him as you implied.

BillS
03-01-2013, 01:08 PM
But we should take in more that just what the stats say. The Pacers are the only team in the NBA that the Heat actually fear. Almost every other team in the league cannot beat them inside and make the games a physical, defensive battle that the Heat struggle in. We also are the one of very few teams that won't back down from them. The Pacers are the perfect kryptonite for the Heat. That's why i believe we are ready

In our own opinions.

Let's see where we are after March 10. If we can win that game, without any "excuses" from Miami like missing players, on the road, with Miami on a hot streak, then I think we're continuing to make our point.

But until the actual playoffs there is really no way to prove this is anything different from the commonly quoted example of the Bulls sweeping the regular season and getting spanked in the playoffs. We can THINK it is, but we're in no position to ridicule anyone who happens to think differently.

CreekShow
03-01-2013, 01:14 PM
I've already expressed my feeling towards this hack multiple times.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
03-01-2013, 01:16 PM
Ginoboli?

Well, I guess it really hasn't worked for SA either. When they try it in the regular season, yes. But it blows up in the playoffs.

(And completely agree in your assessment of Bosh. The Pacers are better off if Bosh plays because that makes Miami even softer against our BAMF.)Good point about Ginobli, didn't think of him. But I think its a different situation, he was never their best player and he didn't lose his starting position because of injury. As of the last time Danny was healthy, he was our best player.

PG is clearly better now but there is a decent chance Danny will return to his former self, which is pretty damn near to where PG is now.

vnzla81
03-01-2013, 01:18 PM
Good point about Ginobli, didn't think of him. But I think its a different situation, he was never their best player and he didn't lose his starting position because of injury. As of the last time Danny was healthy, he was our best player.

PG is clearly better now but there is a decent chance Danny will return to his former self, which is pretty damn near to where PG is now.

NO!

Ace E.Anderson
03-01-2013, 01:21 PM
NO!

YES..YES..YEEEEES

Kid Minneapolis
03-01-2013, 01:23 PM
Yeah but I dont' think anybody ever takes you seriously with that Avatar on a Pacer's forum. :-p

I'd hope that after 9 years on a forum, people would read what I say and not ignore me because of an avatar, lol...

Mr.ThunderMakeR
03-01-2013, 01:24 PM
Mmm I'll just refrain from replying to that ^. I don't want to turn this into another Danny vs Paul thread.

So back on topic, I thought this comment from Bob was pretty stupid:


And I know what I’m going to get from Gerald Green, which is absolutely nothing.

If you don't know what you're going to get, then how do you know its absolutely nothing? I agree that Green is pretty worthless, but wow that is terribly written. This guy gets paid for that?

RWB
03-01-2013, 01:47 PM
So do you think the Pacers will welcome Bob with open arms the next time he wants to talk to a player? I'm mean since this team is pretty close I wouldn't think Bobby calling the bench as being crappy will gain him any friends in the locker room. I know his job is to comment on things but he is going to be butt hurt later when they tell him to **** off.

Trophy
03-01-2013, 01:50 PM
Newsflash Bob: We played the Los Angeles Clippers last night not the Miami Heat.

A pretty random article and sometimes I can't tell if he's fully being serious or he's just stirring stuff up for the paper.

We have a nice shot at going all the way and the Eastern and Western titles are up for grabs.

We have tremendous size and strength inside, something the Heat lack. We're first in rebounding, the Heat are last (something often overlooked), we play better defense consistently. Lastly, we beat them by double-figures in the two only times we've played them. We have some more advantages, but those are the main ones.

If it's not this year, we're only going to get better, so I can agree with Bob there that it may not be this year. However, we have the abilities to get it done in the near future, including this year. I think we'll make to the Conference Finals, at least.

Unclebuck
03-01-2013, 01:56 PM
Heat have not lost since the Pacers beat them. Heat have won 12 straight and only 3 of those 12 have been by single digits. Lebron is having as good a year as anyone ever. The Heat are really good.

I posted yesterday that I think the Pacers are the 4th best team in the NBA behind the Heat, Thunder and Spurs (Clippers maybe should be right there in the discussion also) We'll find out in the playoffs when it matters most. Regular season wins are nice, but the playoffs are what matters.

OlBlu
03-01-2013, 01:59 PM
I still don't understand how someone can claim to be a fan of a team, while only having negative things to say.

Kravitz doesn't believe this crap. He just needs people to visit IndyStar.com. It's amazing that people think this is serious analysis. Kravitz's job is to get traffic. Ask Skip Bayless what the best way to get attention is.

I do not only have negative things to say about the Pacers. In fact, rarely say anything that isn't very positive. I think management has done a great job of building a small market team. However, I stilll think this team is built for the regular season but not for the playoffs.... I think there are several teams that will play them tough in the playoffs and I don't think they are even close to Miami. Superstars when championships not well balanced very good teams. Look at the last 30 teams to win the championship and you will see that teams with superstars dominate. Yes, Detroit won one year with a team that many say didn't have superstars but if they didn't, they had several who were close. We have one player who may be close but he isn't there yet. We may never get that superstar we need. Reggie was the closest we have had in a long time but I am not sure that Reggie even qualified as a superstar.......:cool: ... By the way, I think you definition of a "fan" is someone who is deaf, dumb and blind to anything less than perfect about their team. I am not that kind of fan......

OlBlu
03-01-2013, 02:02 PM
Heat have not lost since the Pacers beat them. Heat have won 12 straight and only 3 of those 12 have been by single digits. Lebron is having as good a year as anyone ever. The Heat are really good.

I posted yesterday that I think the Pacers are the 4th best team in the NBA behind the Heat, Thunder and Spurs (Clippers maybe should be right there in the discussion also) We'll find out in the playoffs when it matters most. Regular season wins are nice, but the playoffs are what matters.

I think that analysis is correct and I also believe that the Pacers are the only team with any chance (and it is very slim) to beat the Heat in the playoffs.....:cool: ... Perhaps it is a curse that we have good teams when Jordan and Lebron are in their primes. But, the reality is that if had not been them then it would have been someone else. We just don't get superstars and our best chance is to develop them (PG and Lance are possibilities) and then try and keep them.....

Midcoasted
03-01-2013, 02:05 PM
I'm just going to hammer home a few points that other posters have already pointed out.

#1. No one can possible know that Plumlee is some bum wasted draft pick. You know what Plumlee gives us for the future? A cheap, talented back up big with a high ceiling. No one knows how good the guy could be in a few years. He may be better than Hansbrough and Ian combined. The future will tell, and I for one think the guy is very talented and could be an effective player in this league someday soon.

#2. Trading away our draft picks like Plumlee, or OJ, or Lance just because they were or are unknown rookies who have never got a chance to play for one year rentals is a fatal mistake. We built this team through solid, cheap draft picks, and it allows us to keep the guys who turn into stars.

#3. Hibbert is the best defensive big man in the game right now. There I said it, but many traditional and advanced statistics have him right at the top. Even if he is not the best, he is top 5 and people forget that.

#4. I think this year is special. I have been making the point for weeks maybe months that Granger should stay on the bench. Granger/George can not guard Lebron/Dwade, as we saw last year in the Miami series. Both struggle guarding smaller, faster guards who are good at coming off of screens. That is one of Lance's strengths. And to me I want Lance finishing the game too. Wade ate our lunch the last three wins for them that series. And a lot of it had to do with the inability of Granger or George to guard him. Lance has shown that he can guard Dwade in games they want to win, the Heat really wanted that last one.

#5. Did no one else hear Granger last night after the game say he STILL has the PAIN in his knees? You know what that means, his condition has not improved. He is just trying to play through the pain. He said the pain is still there clear as day. I am almost certain that the pain will be there the rest of year, and there is no chance Granger returns to 100 percent again. And playing an even slower, unhealthy Danny over Lance at this point will almost guarantee a Miami win, if we make it that far to face them.

#6. Bring Danny off the bench! Anyone notice how we were getting ate alive with him and the starters on the floor together last night? I was wondering if our defense even existed. Granted no Hibbert, but Granger can not guard those smaller quicker players. Thankfully Lance came back in the game and our team looked good again. Granger may be able to have a few really good games with the starters, but I think that the growing and injury pains are both things that will guarantee a playoff exit for us if we try to start him again.

#7. The fact that Granger said the pain is still there, makes me believe that his days as a starter are over. He is not getting any quicker and the league has changed to a smaller, faster paced game. Just look at the Heat team from last year if you don't believe me. They won it all and they were small and quick. I could be wrong, and I love Danny, but I seriously question his future.

OlBlu
03-01-2013, 02:05 PM
I'd agree with the article if he stuck to the premise of the title. "Pacers are not ready to beat the Heat." because the Pacers aren't the best they can be yet. This article, however says "There's no way the Pacers can beat the heat in a series this year. It's impossible and there is no way they'll get good enough to do so"

And then there's this whole idea

-"THE WINS AGAINST THE HEAT IN THE REGULAR SEASON DON'T MATTER, GUYS! LOL"
-writes a negative article that probably wouldn't have been written after a win

He was right about that. Regular season wins against the Heat don't count. Try to beat them when Wade and LBJ and Bosh start playing 40 to 48 minutes. It won't happen. They won't let it happen and the Pacers will not be able to do anything about it. :cool: ...

Midcoasted
03-01-2013, 02:15 PM
He was right about that. Regular season wins against the Heat don't count. Try to beat them when Wade and LBJ and Bosh start playing 40 to 48 minutes. It won't happen. They won't let it happen and the Pacers will not be able to do anything about it. :cool: ...

Well coming from you, this makes me certainly believe that we can beat them. The same guy that said the Colts would be lucky to win 2 games, and that PG would never be an all star, is now saying the Pacers have absolutely no chance to beat the Heat because when the big 3 turn it on for real, it is game over.

Well guess what Pacers fans, there is light at the end of the tunnel! When OlBlu makes these bold, negative predictions, the opposite pretty much always comes true. It is written in the stars now. Since OlBlu said we have no chance and will certainly lose, this means the Pacers are going to beat the Heat in the playoffs friends!!! lol

Cubs231721
03-01-2013, 03:08 PM
He was right about that. Regular season wins against the Heat don't count. Try to beat them when Wade and LBJ and Bosh start playing 40 to 48 minutes. It won't happen. They won't let it happen and the Pacers will not be able to do anything about it. :cool: ...

It's not quite that simple of a solution for the Heat.

Average minutes for LeBron in the 2 games this year against the Pacers= 42.5
Average minutes for LeBron in the 6 playoff games last year=42.1667

Average minutes for Wade in the 2 games this year=38.5
Average minutes for Wade in the 6 playoff games last year=38

Bosh has no comparison against the Pacers of course. In 2 games this year against the Pacers he's averaged 34.5 minutes. In the 5 game series against the Knicks last year Bosh averaged 33.4 minutes.

There are several reasons to predict the Heat will do better in the postseason against the Pacers then they have in the regular season, but simply playing their stars extended minutes isn't one of them. They already play their starters extended minutes against the Pacers even in the regular season.

Hicks
03-01-2013, 04:19 PM
I have zero problem calling Miami the favorite to win in a series against Indiana. My issue is with the language and word choice that makes it sound like we could never possibly even imagine doing so.

I believe we have a very real chance at beating them. We were designed to do it.

doctor-h
03-01-2013, 04:42 PM
Did you have similar thoughts when Lance was drafted? Because after all he only played in 12 games his rookie year. Was he a wasted pick back then?

The Pacers aren't the Lakers or Heat and don't operate with such a narrow minded focus. Their window to compete isn't just this year. If they start trading away picks for guys like Redick, only because they'd otherwise "waste" the pick like Plumlee(which is laughable), then the Pacers' current run will be over sooner rather than later.

Lance had tons of talent. Everyone knew that, the question was his character. He was also a second round pick not a first. Plumlee has shown no signs he can contribute anytime soon. He didn't even show that in college. The Pacers window will close more quickly if they continue to show no willingness to go out and get what they need to put them over the top. Our top players will go where they think they can win a championship. If that happens that window will close real quick. Give me just one example of what Plumlee has done to convince anyone he is capable of contributing soon.

gummy
03-01-2013, 04:45 PM
#5. Did no one else hear Granger last night after the game say he STILL has the PAIN in his knees? You know what that means, his condition has not improved. He is just trying to play through the pain. He said the pain is still there clear as day. I am almost certain that the pain will be there the rest of year, and there is no chance Granger returns to 100 percent again. And playing an even slower, unhealthy Danny over Lance at this point will almost guarantee a Miami win, if we make it that far to face them.



Yes. That's not new. The fact that he still has pain does not mean his condition has not improved. Sure, you could make the argument. But you need more than an admission of pain to make this a strongly supported conclusion, especially when he also said this just a few days ago:

"It's such a process," Granger said. "You go back three weeks when I started practicing, it would get sore, then the next week it was less sore and last week it was less sore. They say it'll eventually go away. We have all the MRIs to back it up. It's a matter of getting my knee acclimated to playing at a high speed." (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/02/26/indiana-pacers-danny-granger/1949021/)

and this:

“Part of my rehab process was going to be practicing, and we don’t really practice at this stage of the season. The issue I’m still dealing with, with my knee, is my tendon has to adjust to new stresses. But we don’t really have ‘practices’ now, so we have to do it in games. This is literally my rehab.” (http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2013/02/28/pacers-granger-treads-lightly-in-rusty-heavy-return/)

Don't you think that sounds a whole lot more like "still in the process of recovering from injury" than "this injury hasn't improved"? Especially since he's good enough to play now when he wasn't before and the MRI's clearly show a positive change...?

I'm not even saying you are wrong about the pain being there the rest of the year, and I don't know if he will get to 100% in such a short period time. Probably not. He may even experience a setback. But none of what we know now equals "condition has not improved." All that statement means on its' own is exactly what it said - he is experiencing pain.

owl
03-01-2013, 04:54 PM
I think that analysis is correct and I also believe that the Pacers are the only team with any chance (and it is very slim) to beat the Heat in the playoffs.....:cool: ... Perhaps it is a curse that we have good teams when Jordan and Lebron are in their primes. But, the reality is that if had not been them then it would have been someone else. We just don't get superstars and our best chance is to develop them (PG and Lance are possibilities) and then try and keep them.....

Playoffs are a different animal. Players ratchet up their game(see Lebron/Wade) and the games sloooowwwww down(see Pacers). If the Pacers can make it through the early rounds they have more than a slim chance to beat them. They have a good chance. Slow games are advantage Pacers.

Nuntius
03-01-2013, 04:59 PM
No one is saying that we are going to be the favorites. Yes, the Heat turn it up in the playoffs and they have the best player in the planet. Under these conditions they will always be the favorite, no matter what.

That said, we are a top 3 team in the East that just happens to match up extremely well with the Heat. We have a good chance. That's the point.

Are we ready to beat them now? Personally, I think that it is 1 year too early. I don't expect us to be ready this season. We probably need one more year in order for Paul George and Lance Stephenson to improve further, Hill to become more experienced at PG and Hibbert to elevate his offensive game in its previous heights.

But do we have a puncher's chance at the moment? Hell yeah, we do.

Midcoasted
03-01-2013, 05:45 PM
Yes. That's not new. The fact that he still has pain does not mean his condition has not improved. Sure, you could make the argument. But you need more than an admission of pain to make this a strongly supported conclusion, especially when he also said this just a few days ago:

"It's such a process," Granger said. "You go back three weeks when I started practicing, it would get sore, then the next week it was less sore and last week it was less sore. They say it'll eventually go away. We have all the MRIs to back it up. It's a matter of getting my knee acclimated to playing at a high speed." (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/02/26/indiana-pacers-danny-granger/1949021/)

and this:

“Part of my rehab process was going to be practicing, and we don’t really practice at this stage of the season. The issue I’m still dealing with, with my knee, is my tendon has to adjust to new stresses. But we don’t really have ‘practices’ now, so we have to do it in games. This is literally my rehab.” (http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2013/02/28/pacers-granger-treads-lightly-in-rusty-heavy-return/)

Don't you think that sounds a whole lot more like "still in the process of recovering from injury" than "this injury hasn't improved"? Especially since he's good enough to play now when he wasn't before and the MRI's clearly show a positive change...?

I'm not even saying you are wrong about the pain being there the rest of the year, and I don't know if he will get to 100% in such a short period time. Probably not. He may even experience a setback. But none of what we know now equals "condition has not improved." All that statement means on its' own is exactly what it said - he is experiencing pain.

Fair points. I just thought at first he was just trying to play without pain. Like he had been playing with the pain for a long time. The fact that he sat out that long and the pain is still there worries me. It's not like playing is going to help the pain go away. The NBA is rough on the body, and seems to be the cause of the pain and not the solution. Sure maybe his condition has improved from all the rest, but I think with playing the pain is not going to fix itself and go away but probably bring on more pain. And Granger I thought made it clear that he does not want to play if the pain is there. It just seems strange to me. I just don't know if Granger is ever going to be the player that he was, and that means he should not start this year. That does not mean he can't be the best scoring assassin off the bench in the NBA.

I just think the days of Granger as a 40 minute player are gone. I'm no medical expert but if the pain was always there, then I just don't see how playing in the NBA can cure it. I stick by my stance that it will very likely worsen it if he overdoes it. Granger's health requires him to not be playing for starters minutes, or going HAM at Lebron in the 4th. He will just injure himself more I fear. I think Granger's best asset now is that he can be that scorer we sorely need in parts of the game that aren't as intense. Lance deserves to finish games because he can go hard. Granger is a detriment at this point in the final minutes because going that hard could end up hurting him even more.

ChicagoJ
03-01-2013, 06:28 PM
Mmm I'll just refrain from replying to that ^. I don't want to turn this into another Danny vs Paul thread.

So back on topic, I thought this comment from Bob was pretty stupid:



If you don't know what you're going to get, then how do you know its absolutely nothing? I agree that Green is pretty worthless, but wow that is terribly written. This guy gets paid for that?

You might want to re-read?

He goes through a few players where he says he doesn't know what to expect, then he turns it around says he does know what he's going to get from Gerald Green, which is absolutely nothing.

I think your eyes might have skipped right past the little change he made there. Mine did the first time through as well.

D-BONE
03-01-2013, 07:04 PM
And getting Redick or somebody else to me would have been the right move because we don't really know how Danny is going to do, he was interviewed yesterday and he is saying that he is only at 65%, he is also saying that he is thinking about the knee 90% of the time and I can't remember who said it(Bruno?) but this person said that if this was the beginning of the year Danny would not be playing.

Actually, even with a good DG, I think this team needs more depth. Regardless of the Lance/Danny 1st team debate, either way, it leaves you with only one legit scorer / significant game influencer in the second unit.

Yes, Mahinmi has been a solid back - up, but hustle, boards, D are more what you hope for. A good offensive game is gravy. OJ is too green come playoff time intensity. Tyler still hasn't achieved consistency, and sometimes is absolutely invisible. DJ has certainly played much better, but, again, about all you can hope for is a couple threes. Arguably, he won't get those looks as easily in post-season. We know he's a defensive sieve.

That's my only concern about this team, but it's significant and legitimate, IMO. They could overcome it, but it won't be easy against a team the level of Miami, the Clips, etc. Then we have that issue where we've effectively let the Atlanta and Brooklyn - type squads run rough shot over us.

I love this season. I love our guys. I hope we go on a run, dominate the league, and win a championship. However, I do not think it's unreasonable to suggest there is a weakness that raises a concern relative to post season success.

Finally, I'm excited to have Granger back. If he clearly makes the starters better, then he should be with that unit. But, I am finding it harder and harder to imagine DG providing better D than Lance. Personally speaking, Lance's D has been the biggest surprise of the season.

BillS
03-01-2013, 08:19 PM
Yes. That's not new. The fact that he still has pain does not mean his condition has not improved. Sure, you could make the argument. But you need more than an admission of pain to make this a strongly supported conclusion, especially when he also said this just a few days ago:

"It's such a process," Granger said. "You go back three weeks when I started practicing, it would get sore, then the next week it was less sore and last week it was less sore. They say it'll eventually go away. We have all the MRIs to back it up. It's a matter of getting my knee acclimated to playing at a high speed." (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/02/26/indiana-pacers-danny-granger/1949021/)

and this:

“Part of my rehab process was going to be practicing, and we don’t really practice at this stage of the season. The issue I’m still dealing with, with my knee, is my tendon has to adjust to new stresses. But we don’t really have ‘practices’ now, so we have to do it in games. This is literally my rehab.” (http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2013/02/28/pacers-granger-treads-lightly-in-rusty-heavy-return/)

Don't you think that sounds a whole lot more like "still in the process of recovering from injury" than "this injury hasn't improved"? Especially since he's good enough to play now when he wasn't before and the MRI's clearly show a positive change...?

I'm not even saying you are wrong about the pain being there the rest of the year, and I don't know if he will get to 100% in such a short period time. Probably not. He may even experience a setback. But none of what we know now equals "condition has not improved." All that statement means on its' own is exactly what it said - he is experiencing pain.

I think what you're dealing with is the TYPE of pain, not the fact that there IS pain. Rehab hurts a whole fu**ing lot, but it's not the same as degenerative pain.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

PR07
03-01-2013, 09:41 PM
I hate the timing of this article. So since we lost to a pretty good Clipper team without our starting center, it suddenly shows we can't beat the Heat? We'll let the playoffs determine that. The Heat are clearly the favorites, but the Pacers have the potential to make it quite a series.

Derek2k3
03-01-2013, 09:50 PM
I'm just going to hammer home a few points that other posters have already pointed out.

#1. No one can possible know that Plumlee is some bum wasted draft pick. You know what Plumlee gives us for the future? A cheap, talented back up big with a high ceiling. No one knows how good the guy could be in a few years. He may be better than Hansbrough and Ian combined. The future will tell, and I for one think the guy is very talented and could be an effective player in this league someday soon.


Yeah, you actually can't say he has a high ceiling any more then you can say he's a bust.

If he was so good, he'd have been a factor at Duke.

Nuntius
03-01-2013, 10:09 PM
If he was so good, he'd have been a factor at Duke.

Because Coach K has been so good in developing bigs lately /green

bunt
03-01-2013, 10:38 PM
Lance had tons of talent. Everyone knew that, the question was his character. He was also a second round pick not a first. Plumlee has shown no signs he can contribute anytime soon. He didn't even show that in college. The Pacers window will close more quickly if they continue to show no willingness to go out and get what they need to put them over the top. Our top players will go where they think they can win a championship. If that happens that window will close real quick. Give me just one example of what Plumlee has done to convince anyone he is capable of contributing soon.

The point is, draft picks are valuable, especially for a team like the Pacers. You can get value out of the 26th pick or 40th pick. Nobody knows how Plumlee's career will turn out, but just because he hasn't done anything yet doesn't mean he won't contribute in the future or that the Pacers should trade away picks just because they might have missed on one. A lot of people were ready to get rid of Lance a couple years ago. Now, not so much.

Brad8888
03-01-2013, 11:07 PM
Ginoboli?

Well, I guess it really hasn't worked for SA either. When they try it in the regular season, yes. But it blows up in the playoffs.

(And completely agree in your assessment of Bosh. The Pacers are better off if Bosh plays because that makes Miami even softer against our BAMF.)

Very few remember that the Pacers were controlling the series until Bosh got injured. That allowed two important things to occur. First, it took the softness of Bosh out of the interior. Second, and equally important in my opinion, the Heat were able to get better spacing for Lebron and Wade to work without Bosh being present down low with even more touches to exploit their highly efficient two man game, making them a lot more difficult to defend.

I truly hope Bosh plays this time around, assuming the Pacers are able to beat more physical teams prior to playing the Heat. If he does, the Pacers should win, and probably handily.

gummy
03-02-2013, 01:23 AM
Very few remember that the Pacers were controlling the series until Bosh got injured. That allowed two important things to occur. First, it took the softness of Bosh out of the interior. Second, and equally important in my opinion, the Heat were able to get better spacing for Lebron and Wade to work without Bosh being present down low with even more touches to exploit their highly efficient two man game, making them a lot more difficult to defend.

I truly hope Bosh plays this time around, assuming the Pacers are able to beat more physical teams prior to playing the Heat. If he does, the Pacers should win, and probably handily.

Bosh got injured in the first half of the first game. Yeah, we were ahead in that game when he went out. But given how early that happened the phrase "...the Pacers were controlling the series until Bosh got injured," is pretty much meaningless.

Now, that aside, I agree that Bosh playing may be to our advantage this year for the reasons you detail. I am not sure it will be as big of a factor as you do though, because it's not as if Bosh lives down low - he often drifts out to the mid-range.

mildlysane
03-02-2013, 09:03 AM
Bosh got injured in the first half of the first game. Yeah, we were ahead in that game when he went out. But given how early that happened the phrase "...the Pacers were controlling the series until Bosh got injured," is pretty much meaningless.

Now, that aside, I agree that Bosh playing may be to our advantage this year for the reasons you detail. I am not sure it will be as big of a factor as you do though, because it's not as if Bosh lives down low - he often drifts out to the mid-range.

If he wasn't playing then his replacement would be tougher and more inclined to stay inside instead of drifting out. Not that it matters that much, it just gives our bigs less physicality to go up against inside, thus hopefully, reducing the amount of fouls....we need those to knock Dwade to the ground.

BlueNGold
03-02-2013, 02:54 PM
I don't think Bosh helps them or hurts them. What he brings to the table, he takes away by taking more touches away from LeBron and DWade who are a couple levels above him. He tends to get them out of their rhythm rather than helping them.

The Heat are most dangerous with the ball in LeBron James hands and with DWade darting around...along with the role players shooting spot up threes or driving into the paint. The key is to defend LeBron and his passing lanes while helping with DWade. But with Bosh out there, I think guarding the Heat becomes a little easier.

Naptown_Seth
03-02-2013, 03:06 PM
Kravitz talks basketball. I stop listening.

He has no read for the game, often doesn't follow it closely, and is always 3 days behind the story. This is not Curt Cavin or Robin Miller talking about racing.

OlBlu
03-02-2013, 03:24 PM
If he wasn't playing then his replacement would be tougher and more inclined to stay inside instead of drifting out. Not that it matters that much, it just gives our bigs less physicality to go up against inside, thus hopefully, reducing the amount of fouls....we need those to knock Dwade to the ground.

Yet, he keeps making that all star game every year and everyone but people in Indy that I read think he is a star. Bosh would be a great addition to any team....:cool: ...

Banta
03-02-2013, 03:40 PM
His use of the colon: excessive.

yoadknux
03-02-2013, 04:02 PM
Yet, he keeps making that all star game every year and everyone but people in Indy that I read think he is a star. Bosh would be a great addition to any team....:cool: ...
I agree about Bosh... Even though he's not the game changer LBJ/Wade are, he is still one hell of a player... He is at the very least as good as David West...

Naptown_Seth
03-02-2013, 04:24 PM
Well thanks you SOBs, I was reading responses for the spinoff discussion and got lured into reading some due to a WTF? response to some quotes.

And I see the following as why they can't win IN THE PLAYOFFS

I still don’t trust D.J. Augustin, scoreless Thursday, who spent the first part of the season in the tank.

I still don’t trust Tyler Hansbrough, also scoreless Thursday, who hasn’t grown his offensive game.

I still don’t know what they’re going to get from Stephenson if he’s asked to adjust to life as an alpha dog off the bench.

And I know what I’m going to get from Gerald Green, which is absolutely nothing.
Gerald, as other mentioned, not in the rotation now, let alone the playoffs.

DJ is going to get 5 minutes per game or maybe less and is the equivalent of BK saying he still doesn't trust Norris Cole.

Tyler just had a couple of games with 0 FGMs while the team rolled along. His minutes are reduced already and he's virtually a non-factor come playoff time. Tyler is going to be as important as Pittman was to the Heat last year...if you get something then it's a bonus, but mostly he's holding space for West to rest a bit.



And of all the things to worry about the dumbest, by far, is Lance's reaction to coming off the bench and being the alpha dog. Lance WILL NOT BE ALONE on the court, there will ALWAYS BE 2 STARTERS WITH HIM IN THE PLAYOFFS. And more importantly, Lance's strength is being an initiator and alpha dog. I think he'd be better as a 6th man this season, except for the fact that he'd be waiting on DJ or Gerald to step up their game.

Lance isn't NOT BENEFITING FROM STARTING. In fact you'll note that typically in the first 4-5 minutes of the game he's a non-factor while they work off of Paul, West, Hill and Roy.

Lance is benefiting from playing with better players. And in the playoffs your 6th man is going to be playing mostly with the starters. If anything a good portion of us would just forego having DJ play at all and let Lance pick up the time with Hill on the bench, especially given the nature of Hill's game. Of Hill, Lance and DJ, it is DJ that doesn't fit, not Lance. Hill and Lance are bigger, both are combos playing PG thanks to handles and need. Both run PnR to get their shot or a basic return pass.


Lance will get 25-30 mpg in the playoffs. He'll be great because his athleticism and energy are perfect for "wild card" plays.

Ian will get minutes. OJ will get more minutes than DJ. Tyler will get minutes reduced from what he's getting now, other than unfortunate circumstances demanding he play.

DJ will be emergency only or 3PA guy. Sam might get minutes as defensive needs guy.



The Pacers can beat the Heat because they have the more talented starting 5. If anything the irony is that the Heat have the better bench and it's helping them in the regular season. It's the Pacers who can't wait for the playoffs when it all becomes about your first 7 and mostly your starters.

If Danny continues his current progress then the Pacers become the odds-on favorites to make the Finals in my book, simply due to matchups. They will be a good bet because the popularity of the Heat will skew the betting lines. I would expect the sharps to be all over the Pacers, at least with the point spreads they will be getting.



Now anything can happen before then. If a plane falls on Paul's head then things change. We are talking about how it appears headed at the moment. And coming off a Raptors measuring stick that compares the team now to where the team was, I think the message was clear that they are drastically improved.

Naptown_Seth
03-02-2013, 04:29 PM
I realize that Danny and Paul are not Pippen and Jordan. But the comparison to them falls on them both being SG/SF long wings who can both defend and can both be primary scorers. How did the Bulls use them? One would stay out with the bench to lead it, then the other guy would come in and take his place for a bit, and then you'd have all the starters back. You never saw minutes without at least one of them out there.

Also I heard Vogel's response to Bob's article was...

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/Naptown_Seth/Vogel_zps0e12ad62.jpg

Naptown_Seth
03-02-2013, 04:45 PM
The Pacers have a better record than they ever had with Granger starting.
uh-oh...


Granger should be deactivated. The Pacers have had a better record than they ever had with Granger playing. Why change that?
I love logic. :D
(to clarify, S86 was being sarcastic in response which I enjoyed)

I love when people jump on one factor as a causality due to correlation, especially where there's only about 50 other major factors in play. Paul is in year 3, but his improvement is because of no Granger rather than the normal development pace every quality player goes through. West is in no way better simply by being another year removed from his injury recovery. Vogel isn't learning to coach and develop strategy in what is not even his 3rd season. Having a normal summer instead of a strike season had no effect.


Oh, and best of all the Pacers record IS NOT BETTER THAN LAST YEAR. They were .636 for last year with* Granger (including his cold shooting start), and right now AFTER the TOR win (ie, it was worse following the Clips loss) they are at .627. And if this is all about Danny's return then you CAN COUNT the 3-1 record since Danny came back.

* actually last year they were 1-3 when DG didn't play, so not .636 "with" Granger

So last year and this year
Pacers record without Danny - .593 (35-24)
Pacers record with Danny - .667 (44-22)

If you are going to make a point based on stats, make sure they are true first.


edit - don't even try to play the "I said starting" card because it ain't gonna help

41-21 last year with Danny as starter, .661, leaving out the 3-1 from this year off the bench. Still far better than the .603 without him "starting"

Bball
03-02-2013, 05:13 PM
I believe the Pacers are and will be a harder team to beat with Lance and Paul in the starting lineup, and most likely finishing lineup, than Paul and Granger. I like the team that way due to the defensive pressure they can exert as well as the balance they bring between defense and offense.

I see that lineup more as a contender to beat the Heat in the playoffs while I see last year's lineup more as a pretender to do it. Then again, hindsight is 20-20 and this team still has no book on them about facing the Heat in the playoffs... unlike last year's team with Granger and Paul starting. But the truth is, last year when the Heat decided to start playing we had no answer. So it's a little bit of known versus the unknown plus what my eyes have shown me during this season versus last season.

mildlysane
03-02-2013, 07:29 PM
Yet, he keeps making that all star game every year and everyone but people in Indy that I read think he is a star. Bosh would be a great addition to any team....:cool: ...

I'm not arguing that he isn't a good player. I'm just saying his style of play (which he is real good at) helps us out in other ways, especially in the area of fouls and rebounding. A 4 that can take it inside with force can put a big on the bench quick. With Bosh (or any stretch 4 or 5, not just him) shooting jumpers, he isn't gonna draw as many fouls and isn't in position to rebound against good rebounding teams (us). JMO
:boomer:

BlueNGold
03-05-2013, 07:18 PM
I believe the Pacers are and will be a harder team to beat with Lance and Paul in the starting lineup, and most likely finishing lineup, than Paul and Granger. I like the team that way due to the defensive pressure they can exert as well as the balance they bring between defense and offense.

I see that lineup more as a contender to beat the Heat in the playoffs while I see last year's lineup more as a pretender to do it. Then again, hindsight is 20-20 and this team still has no book on them about facing the Heat in the playoffs... unlike last year's team with Granger and Paul starting. But the truth is, last year when the Heat decided to start playing we had no answer. So it's a little bit of known versus the unknown plus what my eyes have shown me during this season versus last season.

The important point is the raw talent needed to beat guys like DWade, LeBron and Bosh. We didn't have that last year without Paul and Lance playing at a high level. We had Roy as we do now, so he's still important. It will hurt not to have Granger. But all of this rides on Paul and Lance. If one of them has a bad series we will almost certainly lose.

Edit: BTW, as raw as his game remains, Lance has the talent level to help the Pacers advance past the Heat. He, Hill, Paul, Roy and David are all very good.

Unclebuck
03-06-2013, 10:38 AM
The Pacers can beat the Heat because they have the more talented starting 5.


Not sure if I buy that. I mean how do you really judge Lebron's talent.

If you just rate the ten starters (5 for each team) 1-10. So lets say

Lebron is 10
Wade is 9
Paul George is 8
West is 7
Bosh is 6
Roy is 5
Hill is 4
Lance is 3
Chalmers is 2
Haslem is 1.

So you add up the numbers. Pacers - 27 Heat - 28. Even if you do it that way the heat have more talent. Plus Lebron isn't just 10% better than Wade and 20% better than Paul George, he is probaby 40 and 50% better.

I think the Heat have a more talented starting 5. Lebron and 5 stiffs would be more talented than half the NBA teams.

BRushWithDeath
03-06-2013, 11:03 AM
I think the Heat have a more talented starting 5. Lebron and 5 stiffs would be more talented than half the NBA teams.

Lebron and 5 stiffs won the Eastern Conference in 2007.

BRushWithDeath
03-06-2013, 11:08 AM
I don't think we've got very good shot against the Heat in a 7 game series, but Delonte West is not the answer.

Hicks
03-06-2013, 11:46 AM
LeBron can be a million times more talented if you want to say so, but they only use him 28% of the time, and Wade 27% of the time. When the vast majority of your talent is used up in two players, and that accounts for 55% of your team's usage, I think there's a certain amount of diminishing returns, which is why the gap is narrower in reality than it would appear on paper.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/usageRate

I know you can argue the details of such a stat, but even just going by the eye test and intuition you know teams never just run every single play for their top guy to get a shot or make a play. Not even the 2000 Lakers did that with Shaq. In a team game, those less-talented guys are going to take more shots than for all practical purposes they probably should, and that plays to our advantage. As does the fact that they have inferior talents guarding our superior talent at other positions. Their power forward position, for example, is so vulnerable that even Tyler Hansbrough is a threat to score in the post on them. Let alone David West. They can't handle Roy when Roy isn't shooting himself in the foot (which is not to say this matchup is a given, I understand), and Chalmers isn't going to slow down Hill whenever George Hill gets hot. Sprinkle in 48 minutes of length protecting the rim that we could not do last year with Lou, and you see why this isn't such an obvious matchup as it looks at first glance.

It's not a matter of who has the better paper roster, it's how it all works when you put them all on an NBA floor. When you do, Miami is still the better team until proven otherwise. It's just not nearly as huge of a gap as people like to think, in my opinion. Especially over the course of 48 minutes. The time the gap is widest is late in a close game when a top talent just 'has it going' and it's almost impossible to stop them. Although arguably there are ways of attacking that, too, but nonetheless it's a huge advantage, as we saw with Chris Paul last week.

Then again, if you put the first 42 minutes to good use and give yourself a cushion, it may not matter...