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View Full Version : Danny Granger and Paul George have unique bond that makes Pacers real threat in East (Article about Granger/George)



yoadknux
02-28-2013, 03:02 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/indiana-pacers-danny-granger-paul-george-very-close-on-team-022713

INDIANAPOLIS

The most dangerous threat to the Miami Heat’s chances for Eastern Conference domination is the relationship on display at a downtown hotspot full of gawking fans, two men talking without a hint of the rivalry so many predict. In the good-natured barbs, in the private and quiet moments of respect over the buzz of the bar, and in the ease of mentor and protégé sharing a night out on the town, the friendship between a blossoming superstar and his 29-year-old mentor says everything about why the Indiana Pacers have a better chance than anyone to beat the Miami Heat in a seven-game playoff series.


Paul George, 22, has his Steelers hat on backward. His black Nike sweater with the hoodie. And his jokes about Danny Granger’s “old-man game.” Granger, his finger wrapped after having it drained at a hospital a few hours earlier, switches between marveling “wow!” as Stephen Curry goes off for 54 points on the big screen above them and boasting loud and confidently that he owns George in the Xbox matches that mark Pacers’ road games.

“I dominate FIFA,” Granger boasts.

“I’m by far the best on FIFA,” George says at the exact same moment.

“I dominate!”

They are talking over one another, at one another, laughing, so it’s hard to keep up with the smack talking. Suffice it to say it is intense, continuous and really funny.

“A bunch of us play, there’s like four or five of us on the team who play,” Granger offers.

“And I dominate most of the time,” George says.

“I dominate,” Granger says.

They go down the list: Who bests whom at FIFA, at Call of Duty, at the outdoor paintball course they head to in the offseason in the Los Angeles area, where they live and often hang out. These are friends, comfortable together and genuinely close, and so the mood seems so normal and down to earth it’s hard to remember you’re with two NBA stars every time a fan sheepishly approaches asking for a photo.

It’s also why Granger’s return, far from the narrative being crafted that he and George cannot co-exist, is a boon to a team with a real chance at a postseason run.

All season, quietly, the Pacers have played postseason-style basketball with the grinding, intense, team-first effort that makes them Miami’s greatest threat. They are the best defensive team in the league, they have the NBA’s second-best rebounding rate, they own the third-most blocks per game, and they play an intense and all-in style that has led to wins with gritty final scores like 82-81, 81-75, 80-76. It has also led them to a record that puts them second in the Eastern Conference.

This has all happened without Granger, who returned two games ago – and has struggled with his shot, as he tends to early in seasons – after a nine-month hiatus from a knee tendon injury. Last season, Granger was the team’s leading scorer. Now he returns needing to fit into a world in which the younger George has assumed a leading role at the very position he plays.

The two men are side by side, at a table with George’s brother and a few friends, but they get serious – and protective of the other – when the question of their supposed chemistry issues comes up.

“Danny’s been like a big brother to me,” George says. “He’s really been a mentor to me. He’s been a big brother. Anything that I needed to learn or that I needed help with or getting adjusted to, Danny was there. So early on I felt like we had a brother relationship.”

There’s no doubting that the two men, in many NBA locker rooms, would be rivals. Rivals for playing time, for the spotlight, for the leadership role, for the glory, for the next big contract or the ego-driven need the Lakers keep exhibiting to simply feel like The Man. But the Pacers are different. It’s why Roy Hibbert said Wednesday he’d pay Lance Stephenson’s $35,000 fine for being a good teammate and having his back during the Wednesday shoving match that got Hibbert and Golden State’s David Lee suspended. It’s why Indiana’s defense is so focused and intense. It’s why the Pacers rotate so well, why they buy in, why George feels a genuine ease with every guy on the roster, why Granger seems so comfortable with the idea of turning over his role to the others.

These guys – led first and foremost by George and Granger – actually really like each other.

“I think the biggest deal about it is the assumptions since I was coming back that there’d be a competition between us, when it’s actually the opposite,” Granger says. “The way he can break defenses down, the way he can create, I can just stand, catch and shoot, drive – it makes my job easier. He’s coming in at such a young age – he’s 22 now – I’m going to be 30 in a month and a half.

“So I’m about to have a mid-life crisis,” Granger says. George laughs at him. “So I’m 30, you know, I have no problem – I’ve been in the league eight years – I have no problem passing the mantle to him, to leave the team to Roy and George.” Granger looks at George, right in the eye. “Those guys really, even David, those are the nucleus of this team. I’m getting older now, and the fact that we drafted Roy, then we drafted PG, I was drafted here, Lance Stephenson was drafted here, Tyler was drafted here. My whole team I watched get drafted. I’ve watched all of them grow. So I have no problem passing the mantle. At all.”

This is a handover – no, a sharing of responsibility and opportunity and, yes, a sharing and passing on of glory – that began with Granger’s blessing two years ago, when George was a 19-year-old kid getting ready for the NBA draft.

“We had gone through the draft and we were working out together,” Granger said. “It was the day of draft day, and – we have the same agent – I’d been working out with him for about a month. So I got about five calls from Larry Bird. Larry Bird never calls me. And he’s like, ‘Danny, I need you to call me back. Danny, I need you to call me back.’

“Finally, I call him back, and he’s like, ‘Ah, what do you think of this kid Paul George?’

“I’ve been working out with Paul.”

“He’s like, ‘Yeah, tell me what you think.’’’

Granger stops the story to laugh, loudly, and as he does he looks again at George, and George, almost embarrassed, looks down and laughs, too. He obviously has heard this story before, and the moment seems as far from Kobe-Dwight as you can possibly get in the NBA.

“I say, ‘You better take him.’ That’s what I’m saying. ‘Dude, you gotta take him.’

“Is he good?” Bird asked.

“Dude. He’s really, really good.”

“All right, that’s all I wanted to hear,” Bird said. “Bye.”

“And that was it,” Granger says. “And later that night we selected him.”

The green light Granger gave to bring in George two years ago has the Pacers now primed from a deep postseason run.


“Honestly, I think we’re selling ourselves short if we don’t think we can win it all this year,” George says. “Across the whole board we have the whole makeup of a championship team. I think we’ve got the experience, we’ve got the size, we’ve got the shot-making ability, our defense is phenomenal. We play great team ball. Just everything just ties in together in terms of us having a shot at winning it all this year.”

Granger helps that lofty goal. He’s a catch-and-shoot player who can benefit from George’s ability to create with a handle that’s stunning for a guy who’s 6-9. George’s size and defensive ferocity mean he can D-up on LeBron, but Granger, at 6-8, can also help. And Granger is a leader, a vet who commands respect from refs and other players, and another weapon for a Pacers team that while great needed the added layer of depth.

None of this is to say the Pacers will beat the Heat. Miami is a force right now, playing so well – LeBron’s all-time greatness, Dwyane Wade’s continued excellence, Chris Bosh also great – they will be tough for anyone. For everyone.

In fact, before Granger showed up at the bar, George and his friends had the can-LeBron-be-better-than-Jordan argument. It was far from decisive – some said yes, some said, no, George was respectful but non-committal of LeBron’s chances – but it was also clear that all of them know just how historically great LeBron James is playing, George included.

In Granger, the Pacers have more than a scoring threat, or the team’s leading scorer from last season, or another physical body to throw at King James. They have a leader and friend who fits seamlessly into – and helped create – perhaps the most copasetic locker room in sports.

“Sometimes on NBA teams you’ve got guys competing with each other,” Granger says. “That’s the thing about our team. We compete against the other team. Whoever’s scoring, whoever’s playing, whoever’s passing the ball, whoever’s doing whatever, we’re rooting for that person. I think Frank Vogel, he did a good job of instilling that in all of us. Play for your teammates.”

After some more banter, Granger leaves, and everyone says their goodbyes. This is when the fans come, seeing an opening, asking George for photos, showing him pictures of their pets, telling him how much they appreciate him, rooting on him and his Pacers as they shyly walk away, stunned they’ve met him.

But George, his star clearly rising, still has his mind on Granger. His friends are watching more of Curry’s magic, but George looks toward the door, to where Granger was a few minutes ago.

“I think,” he says, almost to himself, “that the reason we’ve been the team we are is Danny. Whatever you call it, our franchise guy, he’s been so open. He’s been a really, really good guy.”

And that’s the key: Granger’s return isn’t the threat of one star wanting to take back what’s his. It’s a friend returning to the fold, a guy who has known since he trained three years ago with George that this day would and should come.

Really great read imo

TMJ31
02-28-2013, 03:19 AM
I love this team.

rabid
02-28-2013, 03:29 AM
Great find, thanks for posting :)

Miller_time04
02-28-2013, 03:34 AM
I love these guys. My favorite team of all time. So happy I invested in season tickets this year.

15th parallel
02-28-2013, 03:41 AM
This is why I don't buy the argument that Danny will ruin whatever chemistry the Pacers have right now, and that Granger ang George can't co-exist. Danny never minds sharing the opportunities and the scoring load, even to George who can potentially replace him permanently at his position in a few years. He displayed it when Hill and West came last season. He showed it when Hibbert became a focal point of offense last season. He showed it when he came back. This is why I like Danny to be on this team. Throwing the ego aside (if he has any to begin with) for the betterment of the team. Supporting his juniors fully and showing no signs of selfishness. And his teammates love him.

Paul George was here because of Danny Granger. This is the evidence. Regardless of how you value Granger as a player, remember that he helped the Pacers get a potential superstar that we fans have sought for all those trying years.

Nuntius
02-28-2013, 03:42 AM
I cannot describe how happy this article makes me :cry:

Peck
02-28-2013, 03:48 AM
I was prepared to fire off some witty banter about what a group of thugs and scum bags we have representing our franchise and that this had to be a puff piece written by Montieth & fed to foxsports.

But after reading that I can't.

I'm telling you that bench when Danny finally hit a shot against the Pistons was as real and honestly emotional as I've ever seen on a basketball court.

Think about this for a min. & btw this isn't a slap at Derrick Rose but since Danny has been able to walk he has been with the team. Even when he wasn't able to practice or anything Danny was traveling with the team. Rose doesn't even always go to home games in Chicago.

When Paul George had zero point vs. the Warriors who did he say was the first person to get to him at the locker room and pick him up? When David West was putting on a clinic in New Orleans who was on the bench doing the happy dance? When Gerald Green dropped the atomic dunk on the Cavaliers who jumped out of their second row seat almost catapulting Dan Burke?

Danny Granger is the answer to all of the above.

I can't help but think that this part of the article means more than just about anything else.

"Those guys really, even David, those are the nucleus of this team. I’m getting older now, and the fact that we drafted Roy, then we drafted PG, I was drafted here, Lance Stephenson was drafted here, Tyler was drafted here. My whole team I watched get drafted. I’ve watched all of them grow. So I have no problem passing the mantle. At all.”

Maybe that just means more to me than others, but yes I admit I love the fact that these are our players (other than Hill, West & Mahinmi).

Can we please bury the hatchet between George fans and Granger fans? I love Danny Granger and this article did nothing for me other than elevate him more.

But I understand his time is fading and it is now time for Paul George.

I love Paul George as well and when Danny leaves Paul will become my favorite Pacer, but I'm conceding he is the best Pacer right now (well him & David West).

So let's put away the who's team is it and who is important talk, it doesn't matter to the team and it shouldn't matter to us.

We really are on the verge of having what I am about to consider to be the best Pacers team of the NBA, it's tough to go against a team that hit the finals but I'm telling you I honestly believe that this team now can get there.

mattie
02-28-2013, 03:51 AM
This is a huge reason why I always thought it was ridiculous that Granger held anything against George. It would be impossible. Why? He worked out with him before the draft. I always assumed, (tho I never knew for sure) That Granger had a lot to do with PG's drafting. And as Granger and George played together three years ago, there's no way Granger didn't notice the obvious, PG was going to be a much better player than him.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 04:16 AM
Hate to say I told you so to all those that thought Danny and Paul couldn't co-exist but.....


In all seriousness though, this makes me love and appreciate Danny as well as our TEAM more than ever

bellisimo
02-28-2013, 04:31 AM
sounds like we should offer Granger a front office position once he retires :D

TheDon
02-28-2013, 05:06 AM
One of the things that I thought was pretty awesome that was kind of thrown in as a "by the way" bit in there was the fact that Larry called Danny to ask him what he thought of Paul George. Obviously what Danny's opinion was carried an awful lot of weight cause we went ahead and drafted the guy that Granger talked up and said we should get. I think it really says a lot about Bird...being Larry Freaking Bird to be able to be as involved as he was with the team while still letting everyone do their job and also take into account others opinions. In retrospect I guess it's really not all that shocking I think that Bird always wanted to succeed and compete at a high level in the worst way but Larry was also very self-aware and he knew his limits, I think that's evidenced even back when he was coaching and surrounding himself with assistant coaches to help him out while he basically just weighed their opinions and got to call the shots. I'll tell ya one thing I bet you Jordan wouldn't be caught dead asking his players what they think about someone he was thinking about drafting.


Very awesome read about Danny and Paul....It's already been said but I'll reiterate it...I love this team....and also...Thank you Larry!!! I swear if we get a ring this year Larry sure as hell better get one.

Leroy Staley
02-28-2013, 06:06 AM
I'm telling you that bench when Danny finally hit a shot against the Pistons was as real and honestly emotional as I've ever seen on a basketball court.

OK, I'm obviously in a posting flurry. I don't read more than I did before, but am obviously overlly exuberant, as evidenced by my posting rate. I will go hide under my rock again soon, I promise, and you can live without my lunatic ravings.

Peck, I just love this statement. That was as emotional a moment as I have seen. Just pure, friendly joy among friends. Hell, Lance was one of the first to greet him, and he might be losing his job!

Danny has been a class act since he got here, and was a big part of changing the culture. But Danny, Roy, David, Paul, George? Seriously??? We are honestly worried about egos here? Why??? Which one of those individuals wreaks anything but professionalism and class? They all have flaws....Roy can't finish and can't stay standing unless being attacked by pipsqueaks; Geoge Hill is a mediocre passer; Danny just sucks so far in his two games back; Paul needs to quit trying to pass at all, because he sucks at it, and is a turnover machine; David is....well, awesome.

I don't care if you can get Eric Gordon or Lemarcus Aldridge or Blake Griffin or Even Chris Paul for these gusy. They are a TEAM. Now is the time to ride it out and see what they will do. INDIANA BASKETBALL. That's it! Maybe at the deadline you try to trade Gerald Green for cap space to sign West, as they probably did. But Green's dunks are entertaining and fun, so what the hell. My team is on the floor!

BlueNGold
02-28-2013, 06:34 AM
Now that is unselfishness. Still a great player, he sets his ego aside for the better of the team. That adds to his legacy folks. Big time.

DGPR
02-28-2013, 07:28 AM
This article got me right in the feels

Marlin
02-28-2013, 07:30 AM
Wait, Danny had his finger drained? :D

No seriously, great article, this is what this team is alla about. And I love it.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 07:36 AM
Thanks god he was not working out with Gordon Hayward or Cole Aldrich.

CoolHand
02-28-2013, 07:47 AM
Reading that..... it almost made cry... tears of joy... the kind of tears when encountering something truly awe-inspiring... just wow..
:cry: :cry:

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 08:29 AM
And this is why if you arent going to games and/or supporting this team then who needs you. If you cant get behind this team then something is wrong with YOU. Because you will never find a better team to get behind than this one. And thats why the players even ask, where are the fans. This is a special group. And of all the fans in the world, with all we have been through we should be able to appreciate it that much more. Larry Bird built something very, very special. And he is one smart cookie.

piggyKing
02-28-2013, 08:40 AM
Wow. Great article. This is clearly one of the reasons why I've been loving this team and why I was not for trading Danny in the first place. His loyalty and dedication to this team cannot be replaced. It may not have contributed to winning sooner than we wanted but it sure helped a lot in changing the culture and camaraderie of our players. That's something that clearly helps a team be contenders for years to come. And knowing this is a truly cohesive unit who got each others back, makes them more fun to watch.

BPump33
02-28-2013, 09:00 AM
This team is phenomenal. Seriously.

Honest question. What would it take to get #33 in the rafters? How much more would he have to do? What if we were to win it all this year?

I'm not advocating for this, just curious what other people think.

BornReady
02-28-2013, 09:06 AM
Dawwww I love this team so much :'D
I REALLY hope we keep most of these guys together for a loooooooooooong time!!!!!!!

Speed
02-28-2013, 09:13 AM
I'm scaring myself, I'm starting believe they have a legit shot. I couldn't be more proud of this team. The only regret I have is that Larry isn't around to enjoy this directly.

Speed
02-28-2013, 09:14 AM
This team is phenomenal. Seriously.

Honest question. What would it take to get #33 in the rafters? How much more would he have to do? What if we were to win it all this year?

I'm not advocating for this, just curious what other people think.

A championship. Seriously, a championship changes everything.

naptownmenace
02-28-2013, 09:22 AM
I love this team.

Me too! I can't remember the last time I said that. Maybe 2000.

This team is as tight and united as the 2008 Celtics squad that won the championship. They defend like that team too.

15th parallel
02-28-2013, 09:24 AM
This team is phenomenal. Seriously.

Honest question. What would it take to get #33 in the rafters? How much more would he have to do? What if we were to win it all this year?

I'm not advocating for this, just curious what other people think.

If this current teams its first ever NBA championship, the whole team will get their names up in the rafters.

MillerTime
02-28-2013, 09:25 AM
Great post...great chemistry...I've always said this...dont trade Granger...we have a solid core (which is all of our starting 5).

I am just waiting for Granger to get back into shape and we'll be contenders in no time

Sandman21
02-28-2013, 09:26 AM
If this current teams its first ever NBA championship, the whole team will get their names up in the rafters.

Who woulda thunk that Miles Plumlee would get his name in the rafters.... Maybe, just maybe, the brass was right about him! :D

docpaul
02-28-2013, 09:55 AM
Man, we are getting a ton of positive press.

What has changed? We're winning.

The substrate for good stories has always been there (at least for past 2-3 years)... what's changed is that we're now winning.

Winning will cure everything. Winning is fundamental to all of the other things we need to bring fans back, etc.

Johanvil
02-28-2013, 10:01 AM
Knew this was going to be a really good article since reading that George and Granger are studs on Fifa :)

Such a pleasant read, really. Heart felt words and mutual respect which makes me feel even better for this team and more confident. There is no reason not to feel optimistic this season. A young team with great present and future, an emerging superstar player, a very good record so far despite the obstacles from the beginning of the season, a great locker room atmosphere and a young and upcoming HC with some very good technical staff to accompany him.

graphic-er
02-28-2013, 10:02 AM
Wow....just wow.

I hope there is some way Granger can play out his career as a Pacer.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 10:04 AM
Clear chemistry issues here. Just don't see how they will ever coexist.

HickeyS2000
02-28-2013, 10:05 AM
What a great read. Everyone should do two things: 1) click the link to get this guy some hits. 2) share this on every social media platform you subscribe to. Who knows, maybe this will show the non-hardcore fans what this team about and maybe he will write more Pacers' related material in the future. What a great way to start my day!

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 10:06 AM
Also, what did Danny do to his finger?

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 10:13 AM
My final thought, Danny is just an incredible human being.

But when he says a lot of what he is saying, it is almost like he knows. I would love for Danny to end the career as a Pacer, but the writing seems to be on the wall. We may be watching the last 40 or so games of #33.

Sad. :(

BillS
02-28-2013, 10:17 AM
My final thought, Danny is just an incredible human being.

But when he says a lot of what he is saying, it is almost like he knows. I would love for Danny to end the career as a Pacer, but the writing seems to be on the wall. We may be watching the last 40 or so games of #33.

Sad. :(

Not necessarily. Reggie "passed the torch" long before he actually retired.

Sollozzo
02-28-2013, 10:25 AM
Not necessarily. Reggie "passed the torch" long before he actually retired.

Yeah, but he was an old guy who was only getting paid 5 million a year in his last two seasons. If DG can play an entire season healthy at a reasonably high level next year, then another team will almost certainly offer him some decent money. We already have a lot of money invested in Roy and George Hill. We must pay David West if we want to remain a contender. Also, PG is obviously going to get a huge payday down the line. Lance might be playing his way into a decent contract. At the end of the day, there just probably won't be enough money to keep Granger beyond 2014 if another team is dangling a nice offer in front of him.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 10:30 AM
Yeah, but he was an old guy who was only getting paid 5 million a year in his last two seasons. If DG can play an entire season healthy at a reasonably high level next year, then another team will almost certainly offer him some decent money. We already have a lot of money invested in Roy and George Hill. We must pay David West if we want to remain a contender. Also, PG is obviously going to get a huge payday down the line. Lance might be playing his way into a decent contract. At the end of the day, there just probably won't be enough money to keep Granger beyond 2014 if another team is dangling a nice offer in front of him.

Reading things like this shows that Danny has some sentimental value to the current team, and vice versa. If there were ever a time to find a "middle ground" for a guy and a team, this would be it.

Plus at 31, with a somewhat troublesome knee--why would Danny want to go elsewhere? Why not stay with the team that drafted him, that values him more, and that has players that genuinely care for him. Even if he starts coming off the bench as a glorified bench player down the line, I think we see DG retire a Pacer.

I can only hope...

Sollozzo
02-28-2013, 10:31 AM
Reading things like this shows that Danny has some sentimental value to the current team, and vice versa. If there were ever a time to find a "middle ground" for a guy and a team, this would be it.

Plus at 31, with a somewhat troublesome knee--why would Danny want to go elsewhere? Why not stay with the team that drafted him, that values him more, and that has players that genuinely care for him. Even if he starts coming off the bench as a glorified bench player down the line, I think we see DG retire a Pacer.

I can only hope...


I think it just depends how good he plays next year. If he is healthy all year next year and puts up some numbers, then someone out there will likely dangle a nice offer in front of him. I don't think sentimentality goes very far nowadays. Roy would have easily moved on in Portland if we didn't match.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 10:32 AM
Danny just came off to me as very reflective in all of his comments. He is a pro's pro. He was mana from heaven when this team was wandering in the desert. A guy who would play Guitar hero with 8 year olds at a team event and then go put up 30 on Lebron James, maybe those points were "empty" as some claim, on a lossing team going nowhere, but they were important. Danny was a PR dream when this team desperately needed it. He has never complained, he has never whined, he has just played and that is what he is doing now. If these are the last pages of Danny's career as a Pacer, I can safely say that he has made me proud to support this franchise. The hours of living and dying with a ****** *** team featuring Troy Murphy all have been made worth it.

I mean it when I say it, all Pacers fans owe Danny a debt.

Foul on Smits
02-28-2013, 10:34 AM
I appreciate Danny a lot, but i'm not ready to hoist him in the air and warship him. I need him to get back to his old self and help get this team to the Finals at the very least.

DrFife
02-28-2013, 10:38 AM
I think it just depends how good he plays next year. If he is healthy all year next year and puts up some numbers, then someone out there will likely dangle a nice offer in front of him. I don't think sentimentality goes very far nowadays. Roy would have easily moved on in Portland if we didn't match.

Perhaps not, but being on a contender does. I remain skeptical that Danny (i.e., his agent) will demand similar pay in his next contract. In a bitter-sweet way, I hope that he embraces an "over-30" future with more protected minutes ... and adjusts his pay demands accordingly. If we make the Eastern Conference finals this year and can keep him (beyond next season) for under $10M, done deal IMO.

Sollozzo
02-28-2013, 10:38 AM
Danny just came off to me as very reflective in all of his comments. He is a pro's pro. He was mana from heaven when this team was wandering in the desert. A guy who would play Guitar hero with 8 year olds at a team event and then go put up 30 on Lebron James, maybe those points were "empty" as some claim, on a lossing team going nowhere, but they were important. Danny was a PR dream when this team desperately needed it. He has never complained, he has never whined, he has just played and that is what he is doing now. If these are the last pages of Danny's career as a Pacer, I can safely say that he has made me proud to support this franchise. The hours of living and dying with a ****** *** team featuring Troy Murphy all have been made worth it.

I mean it when I say it, all Pacers fans owe Danny a debt.

I do feel for him in that his physical peak coincided with the years our roster was garbage.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 10:40 AM
You guys crack me up...seriously...you cant stand prosperity or experience something so positive without trying to find something negative. To read this piece and somehow get that Danny will be traded is the mystery underlying message if you read between the lines...well....thats just plain nuts. Not to mention totally ignorant of how both Larry Bird and even Donnie Walsh work. If you get that message from this article then you absolutely, positively missed the exact point of the article.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 10:43 AM
You guys crack me up...seriously...you cant stand prosperity or experience something so positive without trying to find something negative. To read this piece and somehow get that Danny will be traded is the mystery underlying message if you read between the lines...well....thats just plain nuts. Not to mention totally ignorant of how both Larry Bird and even Donnie Walsh work. If you get that message from this article then you absolutely, positively missed the exact point of the article.

Overreacting much? No one is trying to be negative. Just being honest.

And bringing up Larry Bird? He's not around anymore.

Sollozzo
02-28-2013, 10:46 AM
You guys crack me up...seriously...you cant stand prosperity or experience something so positive without trying to find something negative. To read this piece and somehow get that Danny will be traded is the mystery underlying message if you read between the lines...well....thats just plain nuts. Not to mention totally ignorant of how both Larry Bird and even Donnie Walsh work. If you get that message from this article then you absolutely, positively missed the exact point of the article.

We all appreciate the article. But that doesn't mean that the discussion can't expand into other directions like most threads here do.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 10:51 AM
It is just a reality that if Granger is a guy that is worth keeping, he's going to be nearly impossible to keep.

West is a no-brainer. George is a no-brainer. We already have made our bed with Hibbert and Hill. Where is the money going to come from?

Foul on Smits
02-28-2013, 10:52 AM
Money Oak

Sollozzo
02-28-2013, 10:53 AM
It is just a reality that if Granger is a guy that is worth keeping, he's going to be nearly impossible to keep.

That's the best way to phrase it.

If we keep him, then it likely means that he isn't the player he used to be and was unable to get attractive offers from anywhere else. But if next season he plays like the player he used to be, then we will almost certainly be unable to keep him.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:04 AM
Overreacting much? No one is trying to be negative. Just being honest.

And bringing up Larry Bird? He's not around anymore.

Honest? honest about what? nothing about what you said was honest....anyone that says they feel danny was being reflective and is on his way out is not being honest, they are being incredibly pessimistic....and as i said...you combine that with ignorance for both how Donnie and Larry Bird have worked to put this team together as well as teams in the past...and its just ridiculous to think Danny is about to be traded....just as its ridiculous to think Larry "isnt around anymore"...yea...ok...

Unclebuck
02-28-2013, 11:05 AM
Nice article and I love the team, and will continue to live and die with every game and every play, and yes I think the Pacers can beat any team in a 7 game series.

However, looking at the NBA as objectively as I can. I think the Spurs, Thunder and Heat are better than the Pacers. Pacers are 4th best, I'm convinced of that. If there are injuries that might change things for sure. And the pacers would only have to beat 2 of those three teams and I am not suggesting the pacers cannot beat them, but I still think those teams are better.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 11:09 AM
Honest? honest about what? nothing about what you said was honest....anyone that says they feel danny was being reflective and is on his way out is not being honest, they are being incredibly pessimistic....and as i said...you combine that with ignorance for both how Donnie and Larry Bird have worked to put this team together as well as teams in the past...and its just ridiculous to think Danny is about to be traded....just as its ridiculous to think Larry "isnt around anymore"...yea...ok...

Donnie Walsh hasn't done much of anything to put this team together so who is being ignorant now.

Larry isn't around anymore. If anyone is thinking he is then they are the ones reading between the lines. Not me. Last we heard anything about Larry other than occasional phone calls with Lance is that he is in Florida from that Jordan article referencing Buckner's comment on Bird.

Maybe Bird comes back, maybe he doesn't.

If you don't think Danny is being reflective in his comments, then I would just say your ability to read people's emotions needs some work. He is definitely being reflective.

It's just a harsh reality of the NBA that it will be hard to retain everyone. If that's "pessimistic" to you, fine I guess. I am not going to waste my time worrying about it and instead will enjoy what we have now.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 11:11 AM
and its just ridiculous to think Danny is about to be traded....

Nobody said he is about to be traded. The trade deadline was last week.

It is a harsh reality of the NBA, that it very well may be in the Pacers' best interest to trade him this summer. Nothing about that is ridiculous.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 11:13 AM
Hypothetically a guy that averages between 15 and 18 ppg is going to command somewhere between 8 - 12 mil with the occasional guy getting 5 (Jamal Crawford) or 6 mil (Wesley Matthews)

I'd think the only way we re-sign Danny is if he takes 8 MAYBE 9 Mil annually. Something like a 4 yr 36 or 5 yr 42 Mil extension.

Let's not forget, Danny gave us a bit of a break during his last extension. (especially when you look at the extensions that guys like Gay, Johnson and Iggy received)

So I don't think it's 100% CRAZY to think that he'd sign for a reasonable deal

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:15 AM
It is just a reality that if Granger is a guy that is worth keeping, he's going to be nearly impossible to keep.

West is a no-brainer. George is a no-brainer. We already have made our bed with Hibbert and Hill. Where is the money going to come from?



Huh? Then you could say that about every player...If a guy is worth keeping, hes going to be nearly impossible to keep...Like I said...if you get that from this article then you totally missed the whole point of the article. Danny is just as much of a no-brainer as West and George. THAT should be even more obvious than it already was after reading this article. As for where the money is going to come from...well...I pointed out that problem quite some time ago in the Roy Hibbert value thread. Danny Granger and David West are the heart and soul of this team. Paul is looking like he maybe the uber-talented stud. What happens past that who knows for certain. But thats the foundation of your team. And that should be blatantly obvious to anyone. Thankfully it clearly is to Walsh and Bird.

imawhat
02-28-2013, 11:16 AM
Also, what did Danny do to his finger?

He was playing with the holes in his knee cartilage and the tendonosis spread to his finger.


This is a great article that confirms what we've read over the years about George and Granger. They've been buddies since before the draft and enjoy each other's company. I love that this team is so selfless.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 11:16 AM
Why do you keep bringing up Bird lol

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:20 AM
Nobody said he is about to be traded. The trade deadline was last week.

It is a harsh reality of the NBA, that it very well may be in the Pacers' best interest to trade him this summer. Nothing about that is ridiculous.

Lol....yea ok....you have just put together a team that clearly is poised to contend for a title for a few years and you are now going to trade the captain who is the heart and soul of that team. There are many harsh realities in the NBA. But this isnt one of them. That would be ridiculous. And to think it would be in the Pacers best interest to trade said captain and heart and soul of the team and a player that the uber-talented stud looks up to as a mentor and is a genuine friend of....well that pretty much defines ridiculous. What sort of message would that send to the uber-talented young stud? Lol...you guys are just nuts sometimes

TinManJoshua
02-28-2013, 11:22 AM
Chad Ford told me Danny wouldn't be wearing a Pacers jersey next year... In 2007.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:22 AM
Why do you keep bringing up Bird lol

Why do u insist on denying the obvious? Lets see....Pacers management continually talks about him. The players talk about him. But hey, let us NOT talk about him. yea ok...like i said...you guys are just silly some times...

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 11:25 AM
Hypothetically a guy that averages between 15 and 18 ppg is going to command somewhere between 8 - 12 mil with the occasional guy getting 5 (Jamal Crawford) or 6 mil (Wesley Matthews)

I'd think the only way we re-sign Danny is if he takes 8 MAYBE 9 Mil annually. Something like a 4 yr 36 or 5 yr 42 Mil extension.

Let's not forget, Danny gave us a bit of a break during his last extension. (especially when you look at the extensions that guys like Gay, Johnson and Iggy received)

So I don't think it's 100% CRAZY to think that he'd sign for a reasonable deal

I'm going to basically defer to the guys who know a lot more about the cap than I do, but the way I see it, we basically already have $32.5 million committed for the 2014-2015 season. Add another $14 million to that for Paul George, and you're at $46.5 million. I'm guessing you can count on at least $12 million for David West, but in all likelihood it will be more than that, but we'll use that number. That puts us at $58.5 million. Even if Granger can be signed for $8 million, that puts us right on the tax line.

Unless you think that they will be willing to go into the luxury tax, which I don't, it just won't work out. Maybe a championship this season makes that more feasible.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:26 AM
Donnie Walsh hasn't done much of anything to put this team together so who is being ignorant now.

Larry isn't around anymore. If anyone is thinking he is then they are the ones reading between the lines. Not me. Last we heard anything about Larry other than occasional phone calls with Lance is that he is in Florida from that Jordan article referencing Buckner's comment on Bird.

Maybe Bird comes back, maybe he doesn't.

If you don't think Danny is being reflective in his comments, then I would just say your ability to read people's emotions needs some work. He is definitely being reflective.

It's just a harsh reality of the NBA that it will be hard to retain everyone. If that's "pessimistic" to you, fine I guess. I am not going to waste my time worrying about it and instead will enjoy what we have now.

Its not about whether he is being reflective or not...its that you think that by him being reflective hes doing so because hes playing his last games as a Pacer. Its not the first time youve alluded to such on this board. And like i said...if you get that from this article then your just plain pessimistic and silly and its not me that needs a lesson on life and comprehension of ones comments.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:34 AM
I'm going to basically defer to the guys who know a lot more about the cap than I do, but the way I see it, we basically already have $32.5 million committed for the 2014-2015 season. Add another $14 million to that for Paul George, and you're at $46.5 million. I'm guessing you can count on at least $12 million for David West, but in all likelihood it will be more than that, but we'll use that number. That puts us at $58.5 million. Even if Granger can be signed for $8 million, that puts us right on the tax line.

Unless you think that they will be willing to go into the luxury tax, which I don't, it just won't work out. Maybe a championship this season makes that more feasible.

I went thru all these numbers in the Hibbert thread...do I think they will go into the tax? not likely, but who knows. And I said it would very well cost more than 12 to keep David as well. But again who knows. Ill say it again. We agree on a couple of things here. You must do all you can to keep George. And he almost certainly will sign an extension before ever reaching FA. They will re-sign David because they have to. Only way they dont is if he doesnt want to come back, which is always a possibility but would seem unlikely at this point. In the pecking order, Danny is next. Thats where I think many of you are waaaaayyyyyyy off base. Its not George Hill or Roy Hibbert. And this article shouldve only made it that much more clear. Yet some here take it as even more reason to think Danny will be gone. Ridiculous I say. Just plain ridiculous. Whatever David signs for will likely be a bargain. George will get the max barring some major catastrophe, which would make this conversation meaningless then. Danny is already at a bargain contract and likely will be re-signed to somewhat of a bargain contract when the time comes. The contract that is not a bargain sticks out like a sore thumb. If they have money issues- which will be likely-you typically look at your bad contracts first and see if something can be done with them. And I think this situation will be no different and thats exactly what they will do.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 11:34 AM
That tax line is now $66.5m?

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 11:43 AM
That tax line is now $66.5m?

It is $70.3 million. There is no way to pay 5 guys $66.5 million, and fill out a roster with minimum contracts, and stay below the line.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 11:46 AM
How about we wait until we see what he is capable of on the court before we anoint him as much of a no-brainer as George or West, because based off what we've actually seen, that definitely isn't the case.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 11:47 AM
Yes, I am being pessimistic about Danny Granger when I use words to describe him such as mana from heaven for a franchise lost in the desert. (Now if we were lost in the dessert....)

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:48 AM
It is $70.3 million. There is no way to pay 5 guys $66.5 million, and fill out a roster with minimum contracts and stay below the line.

Hence why you see all the hub bub about where are the fans. And why that talk about whats 6 or 7 million is so ignorant. 6 or 7 million fills out rosters. 6 or 7 million helps offset the lack of a LT rebate. If the fans dont start supporting the team in a big way-by filling up the arena regularly-then the team will have to make decisions based on the likelihood of not having that 6 or 7 million. And im sure the team was put together knowing D-day is coming with the idea if they put this type of team together then the fans will fill up the arena. The team did their part and if the fans do their part then the likelihood of the team remaining relatively intact are much much greater than if the support never comes.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:51 AM
Yes, I am being pessimistic about Danny Granger when I use words to describe him such as mana from heaven for a franchise lost in the desert. (Now if we were lost in the dessert....)

Nice try. You obviously think highly of him. You obviously also think hes going to be traded this offseason. Youve said it multiple times. Yes, thats incredibly pessimistic at best and just plain irrational at worst. And to use this article as somehow more support for such a stance is just...well....pessimistic at best and irrational at worst.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 11:57 AM
Actually, the less he performs on the court the better it is for us, believe it or not. His value now is even more about non-court related performance. If his knee prevents him from being a starter or playing big minutes, then theres less of an issue in keeping him as his dollar value to the rest of the league would not be nearly as high. Again, read that article. Really read it. Hes your captain. What has the team done without him this year? Without him on the court that is. Heart and soul. Mentor. Great friend. None of that has to do with on-court performance because he hasnt been on the court. We are almost better off in some ways-specifically from a financial standpoint- if he doesnt return to 15-18 points per game type form. If his production drops off to 6th man type production you think from a financial standpoint that would be bad? And isnt that what all the drama surrounding his return was really all about anyway? How he and George could co-exist since many feel they play the same position?

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 12:00 PM
Nice try. You obviously think highly of him. You obviously also think hes going to be traded this offseason. Youve said it multiple times. Yes, thats incredibly pessimistic at best and just plain irrational at worst. And to use this article as somehow more support for such a stance is just...well....pessimistic at best and irrational at worst.

Pessimistic and irrational to think that Granger could be traded this offeason or perhaps not be re-signed next season. Yep that is exactly how I would describe it.

bunt
02-28-2013, 12:10 PM
Nice try. You obviously think highly of him. You obviously also think hes going to be traded this offseason. Youve said it multiple times. Yes, thats incredibly pessimistic at best and just plain irrational at worst. And to use this article as somehow more support for such a stance is just...well....pessimistic at best and irrational at worst.

Give it up. If anything, he's being "incredibly" logical. Of course he can't see into the future and because of that, he's not claiming anything as 100% fact.

And irrational? Are you sure you want to use that word? Because even if he is pessimistic and it turns out he's wrong, he's absolutely being rational about Danny's future with the team.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 12:10 PM
Pessimistic and irrational to think that Granger could be traded this offeason or perhaps not be re-signed next season. Yep that is exactly how I would describe it.

Irrational is thinking that either of those scenarios are an impossibility.

pizza guy
02-28-2013, 12:12 PM
Great article.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 12:24 PM
Irrational is thinking that either of those scenarios are an impossibility.

Who said impossibility? Point is simple. Very, very simple. Give one fact. ONE!!!! That says Danny being traded is even remotely likely. JUST ONE. Irrational is in spite of there being many many facts that say he will not likely be traded and absolutely none that he will be, still thinking he will be traded. Clearly irrational. Do you feel Paul George will be traded? Why not? Do you think David West will not be re-signed? Why not? Its far far more likely David West will not be back versus Danny Granger. And that is a longshot at this point... So in spite of all the facts leading one to believe Danny will not be traded and indeed will be re-signed when the time comes, and in spite of there not being one solitary fact that would lead one to believe Danny will be traded, he still thinks Danny will be traded. And he thinks he will be traded this offseason. The Pacers wouldnt even wait til his contract runs out. They will just get rid of him this offseason. Not only is that irrational...its plain silly.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 12:35 PM
Thanks god he was not working out with Gordon Hayward or Cole Aldrich.

I would like to clarify this comments because it looks like some people took it as a negative comment(somebody told me), my point is that by reading the article I believe that Paul George working out with Danny was a huge reason of why we got PG, had Danny been working out with somebody else(Hayward, Aldridge,Bledsoe or whoever) I don't think the Pacers draft him.

So yeah thanks Danny for the referral, thanks Larry for listening to the referral and for doing a good job in drafting Paul George.

Doddage
02-28-2013, 12:39 PM
This team's chemistry is unreal.

bunt
02-28-2013, 12:42 PM
Who said impossibility? Point is simple. Very, very simple. Give one fact. ONE!!!! That says Danny being traded is even remotely likely. JUST ONE. Irrational is in spite of there being many many facts that say he will not likely be traded and absolutely none that he will be, still thinking he will be traded. Clearly irrational. Do you feel Paul George will be traded? Why not? Do you think David West will not be re-signed? Why not? Its far far more likely David West will not be back versus Danny Granger. And that is a longshot at this point... So in spite of all the facts leading one to believe Danny will not be traded and indeed will be re-signed when the time comes, and in spite of there not being one solitary fact that would lead one to believe Danny will be traded, he still thinks Danny will be traded. And he thinks he will be traded this offseason. The Pacers wouldnt even wait til his contract runs out. They will just get rid of him this offseason. Not only is that irrational...its plain stupid.

First off, the "facts" have been stated before. When factoring in current contractual obligations for the next two seasons, there is only so much money available to sign PG to an extension, West to a new contract, Granger to a new contract, and to fill out the rest of the roster. I don't know the exact figures, I know they've been stated before, and referenced to in this very thread.

Second, I believe TJ mentioned the possibility that he'll be traded in the offseason OR not re-signed after his deal runs out. He never said he'll 100% be traded this offseason. This is all pure speculation, on a internet forum, by Pacer fans.

And third, I'm not sure you know what irrational is. You can label him pessimistic all you want, but one thing you can't say is that he's being irrational (well you can but it doesn't make you look good doing so).

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 12:44 PM
You guys crack me up...seriously...you cant stand prosperity or experience something so positive without trying to find something negative. To read this piece and somehow get that Danny will be traded is the mystery underlying message if you read between the lines...well....thats just plain nuts. Not to mention totally ignorant of how both Larry Bird and even Donnie Walsh work. If you get that message from this article then you absolutely, positively missed the exact point of the article.

I think this initial reaction, to what was a completely innocuous comment by Trader Joe, was irrational.


Who said impossibility? Point is simple. Very, very simple. Give one fact. ONE!!!! That says Danny being traded is even remotely likely. JUST ONE. Irrational is in spite of there being many many facts that say he will not likely be traded and absolutely none that he will be, still thinking he will be traded. Clearly irrational. Do you feel Paul George will be traded? Why not? Do you think David West will not be re-signed? Why not? Its far far more likely David West will not be back versus Danny Granger. And that is a longshot at this point... So in spite of all the facts leading one to believe Danny will not be traded and indeed will be re-signed when the time comes, and in spite of there not being one solitary fact that would lead one to believe Danny will be traded, he still thinks Danny will be traded. And he thinks he will be traded this offseason. The Pacers wouldnt even wait til his contract runs out. They will just get rid of him this offseason. Not only is that irrational...its plain stupid.

I think your reaction to this article, and every post you've made in this thread, has pretty much been completely over the top. It started off poorly, and has yet to improve. All in all, any concerns of irrationality in this thread, should be aimed at you.

You said, thinking that Granger getting traded this summer is a possibility, was irrational. What is rational about that?

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 12:50 PM
I would like to clarify this comments because it looks like some people took it as a negative comment(somebody told me), my point is that by reading the article I believe that Paul George working out with Danny was a huge reason of why we got PG, had Danny been working out with somebody else(Hayward, Aldridge,Bledsoe or whoever) I don't think the Pacers draft him.

So yeah thanks Danny for the referral, thanks Larry for listening to the referral and for doing a good job in drafting Paul George.

I actually dont think it had much of anything to do with getting a referral from Danny or seeing what Danny actually thought about the guy. Larry had to know that they were working out together and knew they had become friends. You generally dont rely on your own guys to do your scouting for you except when u bring guys in. I think its much more likely Larry is just very smart and knew he was gonna draft George if he was available. And considering he played the position of his franchise star player he wanted to do so in such a way as to not create any drama and by calling Danny and "getting his opinion" and having Danny tell him to get him....well...theres a saying or motto when ur top level management. You never ask questions you dont already know the answers to. I think Larry was just incredibly smart and sly and look how it played out. When most of teh world thinks there will be big problems when Danny returns it turns out theyre all nuts because theyre such great friends and have a mentor/protege relationship. Think that happens if Larry doesnt make that call? Maybe....but maybe not. More than likely things dont go quite as smoothly. Kudos again to Larry.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 12:51 PM
I would like to clarify this comments because it looks like some people took it as a negative comment(somebody told me), my point is that by reading the article I believe that Paul George working out with Danny was a huge reason of why we got PG, had Danny been working out with somebody else(Hayward, Aldridge,Bledsoe or whoever) I don't think the Pacers draft him.

So yeah thanks Danny for the referral, thanks Larry for listening to the referral and for doing a good job in drafting Paul George.

Aside from you saying he played at a superstar level during the last month of last season (never letting you live it down lol) this is the nicest thing you've ever said about Danny :laugh:

Rogco
02-28-2013, 12:59 PM
This article gave me a warm fuzzy. Seriously, got to love this team.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 01:03 PM
I think this initial reaction, to what was a completely innocuous comment by Trader Joe, was irrational.



I think your reaction to this article, and every post you've made in this thread, has pretty much been completely over the top. It started off poorly, and has yet to improve. All in all, any concerns of irrationality in this thread, should be aimed at you.

You said, thinking that Granger getting traded this summer is a possibility, was irrational. What is rational about that?

Ah...so you cant come up with any facts that might lead one to think its a possibility so you then go to the last resort...attack on a personal level since the facts wont do you any good. Gotcha. Your opinion of my posts combined with a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at McDonalds. GEt my drift? Ill just wait til you give me one actual fact that might lead one to beleive Danny might get traded this summer. ONE. With regards to his "innocuous" comment, he has alluded to this same sort of thing numerous times on this board. Again, in spite of there being no facts pointing to such. Its more like an insecurity than anything else. Anything this good has obviously got to come to an end....and sooner rather than later. I mean cmon. Theres a wealth and i do mean wealth of reasons they would never trade Danny this summer. And they are in two camps...The camp that says they will never trade him and will not only not trade him but re-sign him....and the other camp being if you were going to trade him, it wont be this summer. But again, in spite of every fact known to man, he still runs around like a dude going out with a hot chick that is just certain shes gonna break up with him and can talk about nothing but. This article should serve to quell such thoughts....instead he somehow tries to irrationally use it as some sort of evidence to support his ill-conceived notion. Just like the hot chick who calls him up and tells him she wants to take him to dinner....for him to only think shes gonna do so because she wants to break up with him. I mean cmon.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 01:08 PM
James Harden.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 01:09 PM
The money situation is pretty tough. Now, granted, the LT could very well be a bit higher in 2 years, but probably not by a lot.

Let's say it remains at what ShamSports currently reports it as, ~$70.3m.

I'll try to be somewhere in between realistic and rosey with my salary projections:

George Hill ($8m) / BackupPG
Paul George (~$14m) / Lance Stephenson (~$5m aka MLE range) / Orlando Johnson (~$0.9m)
Danny Granger (~$8m) / Gerald Green ($3.5m)
David West (~$12m) / Miles Plumlee ($1.2m)
Roy Hibbert (~$14.9m) / Ian Mahinmi ($4m)

That adds up to $71.5, over the tax.

Odds are we WILL NOT be willing to be a tax payer. There's a small chance; Simon allowed it in the past 10 years, but I wouldn't bet on it, either.

And that doesn't account for 2013 draft picks, 2014 draft picks, or even if we give those all away to save money you still need to sign some minimum salary guys to keep the roster at the minimum size of 13 players. (Though, someone remind me, do minimum salary guys still count against the cap, or not? Or am I thinking that the league or someone other than the team that is, pays for their salary but it still goes on the cap?)

So, if you think we'll give away all of our draft picks the next two years, AND Danny will take less than $8m per AND David will take less than $12m per AND Lance will take a minimum of $5m per... you might just get by.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 01:11 PM
Ah...so you cant come up with any facts that might lead one to think its a possibility so you then go to the last resort...attack on a personal level since the facts wont do you any good. Gotcha. Your opinion of my posts combined with a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at McDonalds. GEt my drift? Ill just wait til you give me one actual fact that might lead one to beleive Danny might get traded this summer. ONE. With regards to his "innocuous" comment, he has alluded to this same sort of thing numerous times on this board. Again, in spite of there being no facts pointing to such. Its more like an insecurity than anything else. Anything this good has obviously got to come to an end....and sooner rather than later. I mean cmon. Theres a wealth and i do mean wealth of reasons they would never trade Danny this summer. And they are in two camps...The camp that says they will never trade him and will not only not trade him but re-sign him....and the other camp being if you were going to trade him, it wont be this summer. But again, in spite of every fact known to man, he still runs around like a dude going out with a hot chick that is just certain shes gonna break up with him and can talk about nothing but. This article should serve to quell such thoughts....instead he somehow tries to irrationally use it as some sort of evidence to support his ill-conceived notion. Just like the hot chick who calls him up and tells him she wants to take him to dinner....for him to only think shes gonna do so because she wants to break up with him. I mean cmon.

http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/pacers.jsp

These are the numbers that show how much money has already been committed for the Pacers. These are factual. I already stated why I think these numbers make trading Granger a possibility. That doesn't mean that there is 100% chance he will be. That means, it could happen. That is not irrational.

Those numbers are factual, and certainly more so than anything in that article. Why you are using this article to make any kind of claim that it is factual evidence that any thoughts of him possibly being traded are irrational, is beyond me.

This is all really weird.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 01:13 PM
James Harden.

Unfortunately this is a VERY good example. Harden was entrenched in OKC's culture but when it came to the money, he wanted more than OKC was going to be able to pay, and he was traded.

The only unknown when it comes to Danny is how much he expects to make. Harden was going into his first big contract, following his rookie deal. Danny is coming off his first big contract, and is going to be 31...not old, but definitely on the backside of his career.

I think it all comes down to what Danny feels he's worth, monetary wise.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 01:14 PM
James Harden.

Tyson Chandler, Rudy Gay, whoever Memphis send to Cleveland.

BillS
02-28-2013, 01:16 PM
One thought.

We know that the Simons have been willing to go into the LT in the past for the right players. We know that Donnie is willing to pay our players (arguably too much at times) for their loyalty.

Though I don't agree, let's assume the story of Bird leaving because Simon wouldn't do something is somehow true. We know it wasn't that he wouldn't go over the cap - he went over the cap. He wouldn't have been able to go over the LT on players this year because he couldn't have signed the combination that would have that much pay THIS year (possibly could grow to it in the future if signed in the right order, but that's for another debate). To make this work at all, it would really need to mean that Simon didn't want to spend the money on players Bird wanted if it meant getting rid of certain players already on the team.

IF that is the case, there is every possibility that Simon would be willing to go over the LT to keep this core together. Now, that could be good or bad, considering that contracts which end up being too long can be devastating. However, IF we're in a Pistons Position, where one good well-fitting trade could push us over the top, keeping this core together for at least another two years might be worth the money.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 01:16 PM
And that doesn't account for 2013 draft picks, 2014 draft picks, or even if we give those all away to save money you still need to sign some minimum salary guys to keep the roster at the minimum size of 13 players. (Though, someone remind me, do minimum salary guys still count against the cap, or not? Or am I thinking that the league or someone other than the team that is, pays for their salary but it still goes on the cap?)

You can sign players for the minimum to fill out the roster, if you are over the cap. But I'm pretty sure they still count against the luxury tax.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 01:18 PM
You can expect Danny to at least get a deal comparable to West's IMO. 2/20

beast23
02-28-2013, 01:19 PM
It is just a reality that if Granger is a guy that is worth keeping, he's going to be nearly impossible to keep.

West is a no-brainer. George is a no-brainer. We already have made our bed with Hibbert and Hill. Where is the money going to come from?
I have said something for several months now. And to an extent, this article supports my belief. It emphasizes comradery of the WHOLE team. And, this is something very rare in all of sports, perhaps unique in the NBA, wher the almighty dollar has ruled the roost.

So, is it hard to believe that both West and Granger recognize this and have a great appreciation of how rare it is? Rather than risk losing that with another team, would any of you now believe that West and Granger would be willing to sacrifice a little on thei next contracts to maintain the core of the team they currently have?

put me on record as saying that the team and the players will find a way to make it work.

brownjake43
02-28-2013, 01:21 PM
Keep this team together. They are close as a team and fun to watch. Hill, Stephenson, Granger, West, Hibbert, Hansbrough, Mahinmi and most important of all Paul George all need to retire as pacers

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 01:21 PM
One thought.

We know that the Simons have been willing to go into the LT in the past for the right players. We know that Donnie is willing to pay our players (arguably too much at times) for their loyalty.

Though I don't agree, let's assume the story of Bird leaving because Simon wouldn't do something is somehow true. We know it wasn't that he wouldn't go over the cap - he went over the cap. He wouldn't have been able to go over the LT on players this year because he couldn't have signed the combination that would have that much pay THIS year (possibly could grow to it in the future if signed in the right order, but that's for another debate). To make this work at all, it would really need to mean that Simon didn't want to spend the money on players Bird wanted if it meant getting rid of certain players already on the team.

IF that is the case, there is every possibility that Simon would be willing to go over the LT to keep this core together. Now, that could be good or bad, considering that contracts which end up being too long can be devastating. However, IF we're in a Pistons Position, where one good well-fitting trade could push us over the top, keeping this core together for at least another two years might be worth the money.

Not to mention that by the time Paul is up for his extension, and Danny expires, we will only have 2 years left on Roy's deal (technically one year with a STUPID player option for 15 MIL--WTF?!?!).

I'm gonna just go out on a limb and say we are NOT signing him for anything close to what he's being paid now, and if someone offers it to him--we let him walk. So so we struggle financially for a year or two to keep this core together?

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 01:21 PM
One thought.

We know that the Simons have been willing to go into the LT in the past for the right players. We know that Donnie is willing to pay our players (arguably too much at times) for their loyalty.

Though I don't agree, let's assume the story of Bird leaving because Simon wouldn't do something is somehow true. We know it wasn't that he wouldn't go over the cap - he went over the cap. He wouldn't have been able to go over the LT on players this year because he couldn't have signed the combination that would have that much pay THIS year (possibly could grow to it in the future if signed in the right order, but that's for another debate). To make this work at all, it would really need to mean that Simon didn't want to spend the money on players Bird wanted if it meant getting rid of certain players already on the team.

IF that is the case, there is every possibility that Simon would be willing to go over the LT to keep this core together. Now, that could be good or bad, considering that contracts which end up being too long can be devastating. However, IF we're in a Pistons Position, where one good well-fitting trade could push us over the top, keeping this core together for at least another two years might be worth the money.

Going over the cap few years ago is way different than going over the cap now with the new CBA, the money teams lose is too much, also remember that there is a max of 3 years over the cap before teams start paying more money.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 01:25 PM
I have said something for several months now. And to an extent, this article supports my belief. It emphasizes comradely of the WHOLE team. And, this is something very rare in all of sports, perhaps unique in the NBA, wher the almighty dollar has ruled the roost.

So, is it hard to believe that both West and Granger recognize this and have a great appreciation of how rare it is? Rather than risk losing that with another team, would any of you now believe that West and Granger would be willing to sacrifice a little on thei next contracts to maintain the core of the team they currently have?

put me on record as saying that the team and the players will find a way to make it work.

What you are describing is literally the hope of every single fan of any team involved in professional team sports. It is hard for me to believe, yes, because it basically never happens. I think they will want to do what is best for their families, and not one single person should begrudge them for doing so. We'd all do the exact same thing.

Obviously, the Tom Brady extension has been in the news lately, but I don't think that is a comparable situation. Brady has already won 3 titles. He's already a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. He's playing for legacy, and legacy alone. He didn't really "take less money," because the CBA allows NFL teams to be much more creative with their accounting than the NBA's CBA does.

This also doesn't even mention the fact that he is married to a woman who makes more money than Brady (or any other NFL'er ever has) by a wide margin. Basically, what I'm saying is, Tom Brady beats every other man at life.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 01:26 PM
James Harden.

Please dont tell me this is your justification for why you think Danny will be traded this summer...Please. Was James Harden the captain of the team and face of the franchise? Was he Durants mentor? Lol...cmon...Is Danny Granger on a rookie contract and will be looking at re-signing for millions and millions more? Was James Harden the heart and soul of the Thunder? cmon man...this makes it even worse. Now if they wouldve traded Durant or Westbrook, ok.....lol.. then you got a poiint. If they traded Durant or Westbrook so they could make room to re-sign Harden, then OK. Or, OKC. But they didnt.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 01:27 PM
You can expect Danny to at least get a deal comparable to West's IMO. 2/20

If he doesn't get any better or healthier I don't see that happening, maybe something like what Suckleavy got I think.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 01:28 PM
What you are describing is literally the hope of every single fan of any team involved in professional team sports. It is hard for me to believe, yes, because it basically never happens. I think they will want to do what is best for their families, and not one single person should begrudge them for doing so. We'd all do the exact same thing.

Obviously, the Tom Brady extension has been in the news lately, but I don't think that is a comparable situation. Brady has already won 3 titles. He's already a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. He's playing for legacy, and legacy alone. He didn't really "take less money," because the CBA allows NFL teams to be much more creative with their accounting than the NBA's CBA does.

This also doesn't even mention the fact that he is married to a woman who makes more money than Brady (or any other NFL'er ever has) by a wide margin. Basically, what I'm saying is, Tom Brady beats every other man at life.

Ahem, Cough.....Lebron, Wade, Bosh...cough.....

idioteque
02-28-2013, 01:29 PM
Assuming we want to retain George, West, and Stephenson, I don't see how we have enough money for Danny. That said, I think it is highly unlikely we trade him next year. The Pacers are at a huge advantage in that his contract expires the same year PG is up for his first big contract. There would be very few if any contracts we could take back that would provide us with that kind of long-term financial flexibility AND production like Danny's does. Not retaining Danny is very, very possible, but the Pacers would be shooting themselves in the foot by trading him under almost all scenarios this offseason.

Don't obsess over ""we get nothing of value if we let Danny go for nothing." The value is you have more flexibility to sign Paul George (and hopefully Lance) long-term deals. If we trade Danny for some high-priced player with 3 years left on a similar contract I will be worried about this team's basic business sense.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 01:29 PM
I have said something for several months now. And to an extent, this article supports my belief. It emphasizes comradery of the WHOLE team. And, this is something very rare in all of sports, perhaps unique in the NBA, wher the almighty dollar has ruled the roost.

So, is it hard to believe that both West and Granger recognize this and have a great appreciation of how rare it is? Rather than risk losing that with another team, would any of you now believe that West and Granger would be willing to sacrifice a little on thei next contracts to maintain the core of the team they currently have?

put me on record as saying that the team and the players will find a way to make it work.

I remember when people thought the same thing about Roy.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 01:31 PM
If he doesn't get any better or healthier I don't see that happening, maybe something like what Suckleavy got I think.

2 yrs 7.5 mil--TOTAL??

Yea he'll get that if he doesn't get ANY better than what he is RIGHT now lol. Jeez.

I honestly think with the recent trend of 2nd nd 3rd tier players getting paid less and less (Felton, Crawford, Mayo, etc) I think Danny can expect between 6.5 and 8 mil per--from a winning team. And 8 Mil would come from a younger team that needs that Vet

Hicks
02-28-2013, 01:32 PM
You can expect Danny to at least get a deal comparable to West's IMO. 2/20

I'm not as sure of that, personally. I think his perceived value could be closer to George Hill now than back when he got this current deal (where he was young, healthy, and seen as the main piece of the team, not just A piece of the team).

idioteque
02-28-2013, 01:32 PM
I remember when people thought the same thing about Roy.

Roy also has no injury history, has much rarer size and a more in demand skill set, and had never signed a big contract before. I don't think Danny would come back cheap, but they are entirely different case studies.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 01:33 PM
I have said something for several months now. And to an extent, this article supports my belief. It emphasizes comradery of the WHOLE team. And, this is something very rare in all of sports, perhaps unique in the NBA, wher the almighty dollar has ruled the roost.

So, is it hard to believe that both West and Granger recognize this and have a great appreciation of how rare it is? Rather than risk losing that with another team, would any of you now believe that West and Granger would be willing to sacrifice a little on thei next contracts to maintain the core of the team they currently have?

put me on record as saying that the team and the players will find a way to make it work.

I can imagine it, but consider what usually happens, and then really dwell on the fact that it will be the AGENTS of these players, not the players themselves, working on the new deals, and that fantasy fades away pretty quick.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 01:34 PM
he couldn't have signed the combination that would have that much pay THIS year

I'm not sure that's technically right. I think if the first thing we did was spend cap space on an outsider free agent, we could still then have re-signed Roy and George to their respective deals as well. I haven't done the math, but I vaguely recall at the time that it was theoretically possible to hit the tax last year (if it made any kind of sense and the team really wanted it done). Probably would have meant signing a max contract free agent before re-signing our bird right players. Unlikely, but I thought theoretically possible.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 01:35 PM
http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/pacers.jsp

These are the numbers that show how much money has already been committed for the Pacers. These are factual. I already stated why I think these numbers make trading Granger a possibility. That doesn't mean that there is 100% chance he will be. That means, it could happen. That is not irrational.

Those numbers are factual, and certainly more so than anything in that article. Why you are using this article to make any kind of claim that it is factual evidence that any thoughts of him possibly being traded are irrational, is beyond me.

This is all really weird.

Again...i was on here months ago talking about the numbers problem....there are few that have a better understanding of the cap and things related to it than myself...and i was saying the pacers are gonna have some very difficult decisions...i know the numbers situation....thats not the issue here. The issue is that you..or more to the point, TJ seems to think that Danny is the odd man out. And TJ just goes on and on about how he will be traded this off season. And there is zero basis for such. zero. Danny is one of the three most important guys on this team. Hes not going anywhere unless this thing is blown up. Period. West, Granger and George are your true core. Others are very valuable, but are all pretty much replaceable to different extents. When one of those three can no longer be kept, then the team goes in a different direction. Not unlike what happened to the 2000 team. This team is on the way up....its just beginning to contend for a title. They simply wont then go and get rid of the very heart of the team. Thats just crazy and irrationall to think such. Let alone to do so even way before the issue even arises. The Pacers financial concerns dont really kick in til the end of Grangers contract. I mean geez.

idioteque
02-28-2013, 01:35 PM
Conversations like this are why I hate being an adult. I had no concept of NBA finances as a kid and well, that was just fine.

Enjoy this year and see what happens. We have the entire offseason to talk about this ****. On the other hand, I will probably keep talking about it.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 01:36 PM
Assuming we want to retain George, West, and Stephenson, I don't see how we have enough money for Danny. That said, I think it is highly unlikely we trade him next year. The Pacers are at a huge advantage in that his contract expires the same year PG is up for his first big contract. There would be very few if any contracts we could take back that would provide us with that kind of long-term financial flexibility AND production like Danny's does. Not retaining Danny is very, very possible, but the Pacers would be shooting themselves in the foot by trading him under almost all scenarios this offseason.

Don't obsess over ""we get nothing of value if we let Danny go for nothing." The value is you have more flexibility to sign Paul George (and hopefully Lance) long-term deals. If we trade Danny for some high-priced player with 3 years left on a similar contract I will be worried about this team's basic business sense.

The reason to trade Danny Granger this summer, is that may be the only possible way to retain David West, and stay under the LT line.

If you can keep West without trading him, you do that. I'm just not certain that it isn't going to take a huge deal to keep West, which I think is more important than keeping Granger.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 01:38 PM
Assuming we want to retain George, West, and Stephenson, I don't see how we have enough money for Danny. That said, I think it is highly unlikely we trade him next year. The Pacers are at a huge advantage in that his contract expires the same year PG is up for his first big contract. There would be very few if any contracts we could take back that would provide us with that kind of long-term financial flexibility AND production like Danny's does. Not retaining Danny is very, very possible, but the Pacers would be shooting themselves in the foot by trading him under almost all scenarios this offseason.

Don't obsess over ""we get nothing of value if we let Danny go for nothing." The value is you have more flexibility to sign Paul George (and hopefully Lance) long-term deals. If we trade Danny for some high-priced player with 3 years left on a similar contract I will be worried about this team's basic business sense.

Yeah. That's kind of what I expect to happen as well. Keep him for another chance at competing with this roster next season, then either his deal expires or we trade him for peanuts to get some value before he's completely gone. Or wait and see if he's cheaper than expected in free agency. It very well could be the latter.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 01:38 PM
2 yrs 7.5 mil--TOTAL??

Yea he'll get that if he doesn't get ANY better than what he is RIGHT now lol. Jeez.

I honestly think with the recent trend of 2nd nd 3rd tier players getting paid less and less (Felton, Crawford, Mayo, etc) I think Danny can expect between 6.5 and 8 mil per--from a winning team. And 8 Mil would come from a younger team that needs that Vet

I thought Suckleavy was making more my bad, I'm thinking that Danny is going to get like 5/6mil a year max for his next contract at 31 years of age and with bad kness, maybe less.

rabid
02-28-2013, 01:40 PM
Ah...so you cant come up with any facts that might lead one to think its a possibility so you then go to the last resort...attack on a personal level since the facts wont do you any good. Gotcha. Your opinion of my posts combined with a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at McDonalds. GEt my drift? Ill just wait til you give me one actual fact that might lead one to beleive Danny might get traded this summer. ONE. With regards to his "innocuous" comment, he has alluded to this same sort of thing numerous times on this board. Again, in spite of there being no facts pointing to such. Its more like an insecurity than anything else. Anything this good has obviously got to come to an end....and sooner rather than later. I mean cmon. Theres a wealth and i do mean wealth of reasons they would never trade Danny this summer. And they are in two camps...The camp that says they will never trade him and will not only not trade him but re-sign him....and the other camp being if you were going to trade him, it wont be this summer. But again, in spite of every fact known to man, he still runs around like a dude going out with a hot chick that is just certain shes gonna break up with him and can talk about nothing but. This article should serve to quell such thoughts....instead he somehow tries to irrationally use it as some sort of evidence to support his ill-conceived notion. Just like the hot chick who calls him up and tells him she wants to take him to dinner....for him to only think shes gonna do so because she wants to break up with him. I mean cmon.

Dude relax, take a deep breath...

I actually tend to agree that Danny and the team would strongly prefer to NOT part ways. Danny seems like the rare type of player who might turn down more lucrative offers (within reason) in order to stay with the Pacers (this is not unheard of, Dirk did this with the Mavs in order to win a championship).

However they way you have been reacting to some of the other posters here is indeed over the top.

People HAVE presented facts for their side of the argument (namely salary considerations, which are a real issue). The Pacers are not made of money, and attendance is still lagging behind where we all hoped it would be at this point. Simon has refused to go into the luxury tax for a very long time now. We still have to re-sign DWest and plan for keeping PG. Something might have to give. Let's hope it doesn't, but much crazier things have happened.

Finally it's fine for people to disagree, but that doesn't necessarily make one side "irrational." I agree with the other poster that you might not be using that word correctly... Not trying to attack you, just pointing out that you're not doing yourself any favors with how you are presenting your argument... JMHO

TinManJoshua
02-28-2013, 01:41 PM
I thought Suckleavy was making more my bad, I'm thinking that Danny is going to get like 5/6mil a year max for his next contract at 31 years of age and with bad kness, maybe less.

In which case he's affordable to us, and he's made it clear he's ready to take a step back in roles.

Sookie
02-28-2013, 01:41 PM
What you are describing is literally the hope of every single fan of any team involved in professional team sports. It is hard for me to believe, yes, because it basically never happens. I think they will want to do what is best for their families, and not one single person should begrudge them for doing so. We'd all do the exact same thing.

Obviously, the Tom Brady extension has been in the news lately, but I don't think that is a comparable situation. Brady has already won 3 titles. He's already a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. He's playing for legacy, and legacy alone. He didn't really "take less money," because the CBA allows NFL teams to be much more creative with their accounting than the NBA's CBA does.

This also doesn't even mention the fact that he is married to a woman who makes more money than Brady (or any other NFL'er ever has) by a wide margin. Basically, what I'm saying is, Tom Brady beats every other man at life.

Diana Taurasi and Penny Taylor (WNBA, Phoenix Mercury) took a pay cut so that their team could resign their center, so they could challenge for a championship a few years ago. And I'd imagine any pay cut they took would be more impactful than any pay cut West or Granger would take. I believe Lebron and Bosh took less money to go win. Even though they get the max (or at least Lebron does), they would have made more money had they stayed in their cities. Both situations were done for "Legacy" reasons. Aka..winning a championship.

Danny's decision will be similar. (And West, for that matter). Although no one would/should blame Danny, if he does decide to go for more money..which I'm sure he'd get. The reality is, him and West are getting older. They're all stars, and they haven't won a championship. If this team shows the potential to do that in the playoffs, I can imagine a scenario where career goals beat out money. And I don't think it's that rare for that to happen.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 01:41 PM
The reason to trade Danny Granger this summer, is that may be the only possible way to retain David West, and stay under the LT line.

If you can keep West without trading him, you do that. I'm just not certain that it isn't going to take a huge deal to keep West, which I think is more important than keeping Granger.

Even if West made $16m next year (I'd be beyond stunned, but hey it's possible), we'd still be (with Danny) at least a few million under the LT and only needing to replace Augustin and Sam Young in our rotation. That's workable. I think they'll both be here next season.

idioteque
02-28-2013, 01:41 PM
The reason to trade Danny Granger this summer, is that may be the only possible way to retain David West, and stay under the LT line.

If you can keep West without trading him, you do that. I'm just not certain that it isn't going to take a huge deal to keep West, which I think is more important than keeping Granger.

West's contract expires after this season correct? So if we traded Granger, wouldn't we have to take back basically the same amount of money in a contract that wouldn't expire until the next season (or later), thus not giving us any more flexibility to bring back West?

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 01:43 PM
Roy also has no injury history, has much rarer size and a more in demand skill set, and had never signed a big contract before. I don't think Danny would come back cheap, but they are entirely different case studies.

Roy got offered a max contract by another team taking that decision out of his hands, I expect the same thing to happen with West and probably Danny.

Even if they have "good intentions" some team is going to offer some crazy contract making the Pacers to overpay them.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 01:44 PM
West's contract expires after this season correct? So if we traded Granger, wouldn't we have to take back basically the same amount of money in a contract that wouldn't expire until the next season (or later), thus not giving us any more flexibility to bring back West?

We could take back 75%.

Sookie
02-28-2013, 01:49 PM
We could take back 75%.

So, we're talking about Trading Granger, someone who still is the face of the franchise, even if he's not the best player..to a team that's not going to give us equal value for him. (In terms of what Danny's worth to us.) But even worse, he'll be worth perhaps 75% of Danny's contract...which we'll likely mean...that the player we'll get is going to be someone like Reddick. If we're lucky.

Oh, and seeing as how close George and Granger are, we'll likely upset George in the process.

This just blows.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 01:51 PM
Diana Taurasi and Penny Taylor (WNBA, Phoenix Mercury) took a pay cut so that their team could resign their center, so they could challenge for a championship a few years ago. And I'd imagine any pay cut they took would be more impactful than any pay cut West or Granger would take. I believe Lebron and Bosh took less money to go win. Even though they get the max (or at least Lebron does), they would have made more money had they stayed in their cities. Both situations were done for "Legacy" reasons. Aka..winning a championship.

Danny's decision will be similar. (And West, for that matter). Although no one would/should blame Danny, if he does decide to go for more money..which I'm sure he'd get. The reality is, him and West are getting older. They're all stars, and they haven't won a championship. If this team shows the potential to do that in the playoffs, I can imagine a scenario where career goals beat out money. And I don't think it's that rare for that to happen.

Yes Bosh, Wade and Lebron gave Miami a "discount", the "discount" is kind of fake because in Florida they don't pay state taxes, also remember that Bosh was in Canada and the taxes there are a killer so even if he got the max there he would probably be making less than now at the end.

Dwade is probably the only one giving a "discount" because he was already there is guess.

idioteque
02-28-2013, 01:51 PM
So, we're talking about Trading Granger, someone who still is the face of the franchise, even if he's not the best player..to a team that's not going to give us equal value for him. (In terms of what Danny's worth to us.) But even worse, he'll be worth perhaps 75% of Danny's contract...which we'll likely mean...that the player we'll get is going to be someone like Reddick. If we're lucky.

Oh, and seeing as how close George and Granger are, we'll likely upset George in the process.

This just blows.

I am sure George would be consulted before such a trade, in large part because in would be done so that he could get a serious pay day at the end of next year. However at this point I doubt even his agent knows exactly what he'll be worth.

Strummer
02-28-2013, 01:56 PM
We could take back 75%.

We could also take back 0% if we trade him to a team under the cap or that has a large trade exception.

Great article. Too bad we don't get that kind of insight into the team from the local newspaper writers.

Cubs231721
02-28-2013, 01:56 PM
The reason to trade Danny Granger this summer, is that may be the only possible way to retain David West, and stay under the LT line.

If you can keep West without trading him, you do that. I'm just not certain that it isn't going to take a huge deal to keep West, which I think is more important than keeping Granger.

They'll be able to keep West and not go over the luxury tax next year. Right now the Pacers are at 49.28 million for 9 players. So even if West gets 12-13 million, that still leaves 7-8 million left for 3 players. 2 of those players will likely be their draft picks at 2 million total, so they'll have money to sign either a backup PF or backup PG to fill out the roster, whichever one they don't get in the draft.

The real problem is after next year when Granger/George/Lance all hit free agency. The poster you quoted suggests just letting Granger walk at that point instead of trading him this summer.

I agree completely with that poster that if the Pacers trade Danny they aren't taking on any kind of significant long-term money in the process. That would be pointless. I think most of the people talking about trading him this summer are more referring to expiring+young player or expiring+picks. That would solve the money issue for future years, and also help keep the Pacers talent pipeline going.

I do think though that with Danny's injury, the Pacers might just hold onto him and risk losing him for nothing, hoping they can get him for a bargain after his contract expires.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 02:03 PM
Even if West made $16m next year (I'd be beyond stunned, but hey it's possible), we'd still be (with Danny) at least a few million under the LT and only needing to replace Augustin and Sam Young in our rotation. That's workable. I think they'll both be here next season.

What about Hansbrough? His spot in the rotation will also need to be replaced, unless you're planning on him staying. If West gets $16 million, we'd be at $65.9 million. Hansbrough's QO is $4.2 million, so that puts us at $70.1 million. That puts us firmly in LT territory.

Cubs231721
02-28-2013, 02:03 PM
Even if West made $16m next year (I'd be beyond stunned, but hey it's possible), we'd still be (with Danny) at least a few million under the LT and only needing to replace Augustin and Sam Young in our rotation. That's workable. I think they'll both be here next season.

Tyler would also have to be replaced in that scenario. That would be basically 66 million for 10 players, so essentially the Pacers would be filling those roles with draft picks and minimum salary players (1st round pick, 2nd round pick, and bringing Young back at the minimum would put the Pacers somewhere around 68.5-69 million for 13 players). That's pretty tight but doable. But West having that large of a contract would crush the Pacers in future seasons, so I can't see the Pacers going up that high if bidding somehow got that crazy (which I doubt).

Infinite MAN_force
02-28-2013, 02:04 PM
The money situation is pretty tough. Now, granted, the LT could very well be a bit higher in 2 years, but probably not by a lot.

Let's say it remains at what ShamSports currently reports it as, ~$70.3m.

I'll try to be somewhere in between realistic and rosey with my salary projections:

George Hill ($8m) / BackupPG
Paul George (~$14m) / Lance Stephenson (~$5m aka MLE range) / Orlando Johnson (~$0.9m)
Danny Granger (~$8m) / Gerald Green ($3.5m)
David West (~$12m) / Miles Plumlee ($1.2m)
Roy Hibbert (~$14.9m) / Ian Mahinmi ($4m)

That adds up to $71.5, over the tax.

Odds are we WILL NOT be willing to be a tax payer. There's a small chance; Simon allowed it in the past 10 years, but I wouldn't bet on it, either.

And that doesn't account for 2013 draft picks, 2014 draft picks, or even if we give those all away to save money you still need to sign some minimum salary guys to keep the roster at the minimum size of 13 players. (Though, someone remind me, do minimum salary guys still count against the cap, or not? Or am I thinking that the league or someone other than the team that is, pays for their salary but it still goes on the cap?)

So, if you think we'll give away all of our draft picks the next two years, AND Danny will take less than $8m per AND David will take less than $12m per AND Lance will take a minimum of $5m per... you might just get by.

I could see us packaging a late 1st and Green in order to dump salary, which makes up some ground here. There is also the possibility we keep Danny and let Lance walk. I think there are ways to keep the core together, it may come down to choosing between Danny and Lance.

Downtown Bang!
02-28-2013, 02:11 PM
I can imagine it, but consider what usually happens, and then really dwell on the fact that it will be the AGENTS of these players, not the players themselves, working on the new deals, and that fantasy fades away pretty quick.

Persuasive as they may be the Agents still work for the players. It is ultimately the players decision as to whether they want to maximize market value or give up some $$$ in order to stay in a situation that is right for them.

The fantasy is assuming most players value the opportunity for a championship or loyalty to an organization over maximizing monetary compensation. Truth is most do not and as much as we as fans wished they did none of them need to apologize for making that choice.

SycamoreKen
02-28-2013, 02:17 PM
Man I can't believe it. These guys are reminding me of that group of thugs the Spurs. Seriously though, Danny's attitude reminds me of Ginibili's.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 02:24 PM
I could see us packaging a late 1st and Green in order to dump salary, which makes up some ground here. There is also the possibility we keep Danny and let Lance walk. I think there are ways to keep the core together, it may come down to choosing between Danny and Lance.

THIS. If we could somehow trade our first with someone taking on Green's contract, then I think we would be as good as gold with DG, OJ, Lance and Paul.

The fact that signing Green to such a long term deal may be the thing that breaks this team apart is nauseating.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 02:29 PM
Dude relax, take a deep breath...

I actually tend to agree that Danny and the team would strongly prefer to NOT part ways. Danny seems like the rare type of player who might turn down more lucrative offers (within reason) in order to stay with the Pacers (this is not unheard of, Dirk did this with the Mavs in order to win a championship).

However they way you have been reacting to some of the other posters here is indeed over the top.

People HAVE presented facts for their side of the argument (namely salary considerations, which are a real issue). The Pacers are not made of money, and attendance is still lagging behind where we all hoped it would be at this point. Simon has refused to go into the luxury tax for a very long time now. We still have to re-sign DWest and plan for keeping PG. Something might have to give. Let's hope it doesn't, but much crazier things have happened.

Finally it's fine for people to disagree, but that doesn't necessarily make one side "irrational." I agree with the other poster that you might not be using that word correctly... Not trying to attack you, just pointing out that you're not doing yourself any favors with how you are presenting your argument... JMHO


Ummm....no....ur way off...waaaayyyyyyy....

People have made the case for the Pacers going to have payroll issues...which I have been saying for months...thats not the issue...Now they wont really be an issue til after DAnnys contract ends...and when Georges new deal would take effect....so thats not really the sticking point...they have made a case for the payroll issues...but not why DAnny is the odd man out....and why he will not only put out to pasture but done so this offseason...they will attempt to get rid of Roy or Hill or a host of others before they get rid of Danny....Danny is on the same course as Reggie.....and there are many many facts that point to such....and none that point to the fact that DANNY will be the one let go if someone indeed has to go....NONE...amazing how the guy who was our best player and face of the franchise before he got hurt suddenly is the odd man out....lol...like i said..irrational...

LetsTalkPacers84
02-28-2013, 02:31 PM
Im not crying! I just have something in my eye...

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:32 PM
If the Pacers had any plans to get rid of Hill or Hibbert, the best time to do it would have likely been last offseason.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 02:32 PM
We could also take back 0% if we trade him to a team under the cap or that has a large trade exception.

Great article. Too bad we don't get that kind of insight into the team from the local newspaper writers.

True, but has any team ever absorbed such a large deal withing sending money back? He'll be worth around $14m next year.

rabid
02-28-2013, 02:33 PM
Ummm....no....ur way off...waaaayyyyyyy....

and none that point to the fact that DANNY will be the one let go if someone indeed has to go....NONE...

So... salary numbers aren't facts? Remind me not to pick you when I'm putting together my next debate team.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:33 PM
True, but has any team ever absorbed such a large deal withing sending money back? He'll be worth around $14m next year.

What did Peja get from New Orleans in our sign and trade? I don't really remember.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 02:35 PM
What about Hansbrough? His spot in the rotation will also need to be replaced, unless you're planning on him staying. If West gets $16 million, we'd be at $65.9 million. Hansbrough's QO is $4.2 million, so that puts us at $70.1 million. That puts us firmly in LT territory.

You can draft his replacement, you can re-sign Pendergraph, or you can play Miles and Ian together if you believe that's workable.

Hicks
02-28-2013, 02:36 PM
I could see us packaging a late 1st and Green in order to dump salary, which makes up some ground here. There is also the possibility we keep Danny and let Lance walk. I think there are ways to keep the core together, it may come down to choosing between Danny and Lance.

Yep. We could just let Lance walk. Especially if Orlando continues to seem promising as a backup 2.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 02:36 PM
What about Hansbrough? His spot in the rotation will also need to be replaced, unless you're planning on him staying. If West gets $16 million, we'd be at $65.9 million. Hansbrough's QO is $4.2 million, so that puts us at $70.1 million. That puts us firmly in LT territory.

Lol...16 million eh....i got laughed off the board when I said he might get something close to 15 million. Next year isnt a problem...next year is very manageable...you will see...however...its the following season that things will start to get tricky...in fact...I would even think the Pacers might try to sign West to a contract that descends in value from year to year...and I also expect them to sign him to more years than they know he will play...he will likely get a 4 or 5 year deal easily...even at his age...but the following offseason is the real problem...actually its not even technically then...its the end of that following season as the LT is figured on the year end payroll....so conceivably the Pacers make a move like some teams made jsut a couple of weeks ago....at the trade deadline in Feb of 2015...thats really the Dday....and yet TJ thinnks theyre gonna trade DG this offseason....pfft...puhlease....but hey TJ...if they do...you got me on record with lots of stuff that should be fun shoving back down my throat....but if I were you...I wouldnt hold my breath...

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 02:37 PM
Ummm....no....ur way off...waaaayyyyyyy....

People have made the case for the Pacers going to have payroll issues...which I have been saying for months...thats not the issue...Now they wont really be an issue til after DAnnys contract ends...and when Georges new deal would take effect....so thats not really the sticking point...they have made a case for the payroll issues...but not why DAnny is the odd man out....and why he will not only put out to pasture but done so this offseason...they will attempt to get rid of Roy or Hill or a host of others before they get rid of Danny....Danny is on the same course as Reggie.....and there are many many facts that point to such....and none that point to the fact that DANNY will be the one let go if someone indeed has to go....NONE...amazing how the guy who was our best player and face of the franchise before he got hurt suddenly is the odd man out....lol...like i said..irrational...

I think you're confused on both the meanings of the words irrational, and facts.

This team has proven they are contenders this season without Granger. Why do you think they would rather trade Hibbert or George Hill to keep him?

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:37 PM
I never said I think they are going to trade DG this offseason. I said I think they could, and I said "if" they do. But you just keep on truckin'

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 02:38 PM
Lol...16 million eh....i got laughed off the board when I said he might get something close to 15 million.

If only...

rabid
02-28-2013, 02:38 PM
Lol...16 million eh....i got laughed off the board when I said he might get something close to 15 million. Next year isnt a problem...next year is very manageable...you will see...however...its the following season that things will start to get tricky...in fact...I would even think the Pacers might try to sign West to a contract that descends in value from year to year...and I also expect them to sign him to more years than they know he will play...he will likely get a 4 or 5 year deal easily...even at his age...but the following offseason is the real problem...actually its not even technically then...its the end of that following season as the LT is figured on the year end payroll....so conceivably the Pacers make a move like some teams made jsut a couple of weeks ago....at the trade deadline in Feb of 2015...thats really the Dday....and yet TJ thinnks theyre gonna trade DG this offseason....pfft...puhlease....but hey TJ...if they do...you got me on record with lots of stuff that should be fun shoving back down my throat....but if I were you...I wouldnt hold my breath...

You don't get it. It's not your opinions, it's the fact that you are calling others "irrational" and accusing them of having NO FACTS (you are capitalizing a lot). It's really undermining and distracting from what you are trying to say.

EDIT: which is a shame because you are making a lot of great points, though I don't agree with them all. Just maybe calm down a bit? I don't get the sense that anyone on this thread really wants Danny to leave, or is assuming he will... it's just that these things DO happen in the NBA...

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:41 PM
Please dont tell me this is your justification for why you think Danny will be traded this summer...Please. Was James Harden the captain of the team and face of the franchise? Was he Durants mentor? Lol...cmon...Is Danny Granger on a rookie contract and will be looking at re-signing for millions and millions more? Was James Harden the heart and soul of the Thunder? cmon man...this makes it even worse. Now if they wouldve traded Durant or Westbrook, ok.....lol.. then you got a poiint. If they traded Durant or Westbrook so they could make room to re-sign Harden, then OK. Or, OKC. But they didnt.

Harden was the key guy in the OKC locker room in a lot of folks' opinion. Clearly OKC worked through it but there were major, major chemistry concerns surrounding that deal.

The point is a Harden deal was all about money, just as if Granger is moved or not re-signed, it will be all about money. I'm sure even the biggest non-Danny fans would agree that as he gets healthier he can help the team, but this is all about dollars and cents, and also trying to get value if you can.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 02:42 PM
someone forgot their happy meds today...:rolleyes:

In all seriousness though, this thread definitely took a turn lol

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:43 PM
I honestly have no idea what he is so upset about.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 02:44 PM
someone forgot their happy meds today...:rolleyes:

In all seriousness though, this thread definitely took a turn lol

Great national article though.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 02:44 PM
Yep. We could just let Lance walk. Especially if Orlando continues to seem promising as a backup 2.

Lance will indeed be the one huge variable in all of this...He obviously will be looking for as big of a deal as is possible...expeically considering how hes playing on a deal that probably is significantly undervalued when all is said and done....so depending on how much he continues to develop...it will be interesting to see how the market for him plays out....Im sure they hope to keep him...but if the writing is on the wall and they know there will be no way...then he could definitely be put on the block....but I will say it again...I think the time will come..either next offseason or at the deadline in 2015...that they take a hard look at Roys contract...because thats the real problem in the Pacers payroll....

Hicks
02-28-2013, 02:44 PM
What did Peja get from New Orleans in our sign and trade? I don't really remember.

Looks like ~$60m over 5 years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2510218

KingGeorge_24
02-28-2013, 02:46 PM
This read hit me hard. I love this team so much. Like i cant wait to attend IUPUI next year so i can be closer to the team and attend more games. It sucks living 2 hours away. Ive always believed that Paul and Danny could co-exist. My two favorite players. I also love West. Hes been one of my favorite players since i started watching basketball in 2005. Just a bunch of good guys on this team. They all seem like best friends. I honestly think we can win the championship within the next 3 years.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:47 PM
Great national article though.

Clearly. Stuff like this is great, and makes supporting the team easy and fun. Excited to see if they can rally together tonight without Hibbert on D.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 02:48 PM
You don't get it. It's not your opinions, it's the fact that you are calling others "irrational" and accusing them of having NO FACTS (you are capitalizing a lot). It's really undermining and distracting from what you are trying to say.

Didnt call anyone irrational...said ignoring facts is irrational....and again...noone has presented any facts as to why DANNY WOULD BE THE ODD MAN OUT...what i said was simple...dont change crap around....TJ said this article basically further supported his notion that Danny would be traded this offseason....reading this article and getting that is pessimistic at best and irrational at worst...thats what i said....but go ahead and twist things if you would like...Im still waiting for the first fact that says Danny is the odd man out...let alone likely to be traded this offseason....WAITING....

Strummer
02-28-2013, 02:50 PM
True, but has any team ever absorbed such a large deal withing sending money back? He'll be worth around $14m next year.

I agree that 0% is unlikely.

According to ShamSports there are currently two large exceptions:

Denver $13,000,000 from Nene trade
Orlando $17,816,880 from Dwight Howard trade

http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/exceptions.jsp

Not saying I think we're sending Danny to either of those teams. And they haven't updated this list since November, so things could have changed.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 02:51 PM
Lance will indeed be the one huge variable in all of this...He obviously will be looking for as big of a deal as is possible...expeically considering how hes playing on a deal that probably is significantly undervalued when all is said and done....so depending on how much he continues to develop...it will be interesting to see how the market for him plays out....Im sure they hope to keep him...but if the writing is on the wall and they know there will be no way...then he could definitely be put on the block....but I will say it again...I think the time will come..either next offseason or at the deadline in 2015...that they take a hard look at Roys contract...because thats the real problem in the Pacers payroll....

As well as Lance is playing, we have to put it into consideration that he's still only averaging about 8 and 3. Those aren't "big deal" numbers by any means. Obviously he's young, and will end up being one of the better players on this team in the futur3e, but he should be paid adequately within his next contract for what he's doing now and what we can reasonably expect for the next 2-3 yrs. I'd think Lance would get a 3 yr, 10-12 Mil contract with the last yr being a player

Peck
02-28-2013, 02:51 PM
You people sure can take away a natural high from such an inspirational article.

Could we please visit the "we must trade Granger" or the "Danny must stay at all cost" in another thread? What you are doing (both sides) is basically pissing on the spirit of the article.

The future is the future, we are living in the here and now and Danny can't be traded till after the season. So could we please please please focus on the fact that right here and now we are pretty damn good and this team has special chemistry?

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 02:52 PM
Didnt call anyone irrational...said ignoring facts is irrational....and again...noone has presented any facts as to why DANNY WOULD BE THE ODD MAN OUT...what i said was simple...dont change crap around....TJ said this article basically further supported his notion that Danny would be traded this offseason....reading this article and getting that is pessimistic at best and irrational at worst...thats what i said....but go ahead and twist things if you would like...Im still waiting for the first fact that says Danny is the odd man out...let alone likely to be traded this offseason....WAITING....

And nobody else has any idea what you consider a "fact," so you're going to be waiting for a long time. You're attitude about this is baffling.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 02:52 PM
Clearly. Stuff like this is great, and makes supporting the team easy and fun. Excited to see if they can rally together tonight without Hibbert on D.

YEAAAA....so then we could talk about how Hibbert could be traded since the team can beat elite caliber teams without him and since the Pacers have impending payroll issues he has to go....

Which...to address their payroll issues...which in reality would make a lot more sense than putting Danny and his far more reasonable contract out to pasture...

:)

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:53 PM
Good Lord man. Please look up the meanings of the words "could", "almost" and "if" it will make your life a lot easier.

And if you don't like speculation an internet message board for sports fans may not be the place for you.

Here are facts:

The Pacers are cap conscious. Danny is a big chunk of the cap. The Pacers already are paying two young players (Hill and Roy), and will likely be giving out a max deal to another young player (Paul) sometime in the next 12 months. These are all facts.

An opinion, that some of us have, is that the Pacers will also want to pay West. Another opinion, is that the Pacers would probably like to retain a young 22 year old SG who has performed well with the rest of the starters, Lance.

This COULD (key word here) lead to Danny being the odd man out. This COULD lead to the Pacers moving Danny so they get value back.

I have never said I think Danny will be traded. I have never claimed I have a theory. All I said is it could happen and if it does it will be sad. That statement is supported by facts. It is not irrational, and it's not pessimistic. Danny has been a great Pacer and it would suck to see him go, but tough decisions are the nature of competitive sports, business, and well, life.

Yes, if the world was perfect we could retain Danny forever and ever, and maybe we will spend that dough, but we might not and acknowledging that fact is the furthest thing from being irrational.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:54 PM
You people sure can take away a natural high from such an inspirational article.

Could we please visit the "we must trade Granger" or the "Danny must stay at all cost" in another thread? What you are doing (both sides) is basically pissing on the spirit of the article.

The future is the future, we are living in the here and now and Danny can't be traded till after the season. So could we please please please focus on the fact that right here and now we are pretty damn good and this team has special chemistry?

There is no "we must trade Granger" side to this argument though lol

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 02:55 PM
YEAAAA....so then we could talk about how Hibbert could be traded since the team can beat elite caliber teams without him and since the Pacers have impending payroll issues he has to go....

Which...to address their payroll issues...which in reality would make a lot more sense than putting Danny and his far more reasonable contract out to pasture...

:)

Ok, we've officially left planet earth. And also apparently salary cap rules.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 02:56 PM
There is no "we must trade Granger" side to this argument though lol

I haven't even seen a "I want to trade Granger" side to this argument.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 03:00 PM
My final thought, Danny is just an incredible human being.

But when he says a lot of what he is saying, it is almost like he knows. I would love for Danny to end the career as a Pacer, but the writing seems to be on the wall. We may be watching the last 40 or so games of #33.

Sad. :(


You people sure can take away a natural high from such an inspirational article.

Could we please visit the "we must trade Granger" or the "Danny must stay at all cost" in another thread? What you are doing (both sides) is basically pissing on the spirit of the article.

The future is the future, we are living in the here and now and Danny can't be traded till after the season. So could we please please please focus on the fact that right here and now we are pretty damn good and this team has special chemistry?

Agreed

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 03:00 PM
Look this thread should be positive and I acknowledge that, but I will defend myself when I am called irrational and pessimistic for suggesting that Danny may have a level of awareness about what could happen this offseason or next regarding his status with the team (Hell, Danny is smarter than probably anyone on this board, I'm sure he's not ignorant to the ins and outs of it all). I will defend myself even more when someone continues to put words in my mouth saying that "I think Granger will be traded". Everything I said was modified with a could, an if, or an almost.

That being said, I am so grateful that Paul and Danny have these kind of personalities, and they both do the little things. During the Warriors game, Paul had a moment where a child behind the Warriors bench caught the ball when it went out of bounds. He tossed it to Paul as Paul was walking by and Paul tossed it back to him playfully and then asked him if could throw it to the ref. The kid was maybe 10 or 11, and I am sure a Pacer fan for life was born that moment. Those are the things that Paul, Danny, and Roy all clearly understand. That builds a bond between a young fan and a young player. That is one of the special things about sports, and why following sports is "worth it". We are lucky to have these kind of guys around our franchise.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2013, 03:03 PM
Didnt call anyone irrational...said ignoring facts is irrational....and again...noone has presented any facts as to why DANNY WOULD BE THE ODD MAN OUT...what i said was simple...dont change crap around....TJ said this article basically further supported his notion that Danny would be traded this offseason....reading this article and getting that is pessimistic at best and irrational at worst...thats what i said....but go ahead and twist things if you would like...Im still waiting for the first fact that says Danny is the odd man out...let alone likely to be traded this offseason....WAITING....

Fact...we were 34-21 without Granger this year.And that was after an extremely slow start. We've blown out the Champs twice at BLF, beat our competition for the number two seed by 40, and have been pretty close to dominant for about a month or so. I'm probably the biggest DG fan on the board, and even I can see that we've shown the ability to contend without him being a part of the team. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Fact...of our current "core group" of players (Hill, West, Roy, Paul, Danny, and now Lance) two of which just signed extensions LAST OFFSEASON. So obviously the FO sees them as long term solutions at their positions (Hill-PG/HIbbert-C) It's an obvious fact that Paul isn't going anywhere so he won't be the "odd man out".

So that leaves Lance, Danny and David.

David West made this team legit upon his arrival. He's put up 17 and 8, and has shown to be an important part of the team, if not team MVP.
Lance is 22 and has the potential to be just as good to as as Paul is--just in a different way. He has shown up in a big way during our big games.
And Danny is coming off of a knee injury, and has question marks as to how he'll be able to come back and contribute.

With all that said, out of those 3 players, it only makes sense--in a logical point of view while using FACTS from this season; that Danny would be the "odd man out"--IF that outcome is necessary

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 03:03 PM
Ok, we've officially left planet earth. And also apparently salary cap rules.

Ah...really...please explain...this should be good...you explaining salary cap rules to me....Im waiting...all ears....enlighten me....you say we have a payroll problem...which we will have in the offseason of 2014....or to be much more specific...the spring of 2015....so tell me how looking at trading your worst contract and most overpaid player when it would fix the payroll issue in one big swoop is leaving planet earth and against salary cap rules....pleeeeaase enlighten me oh brilliant one....

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 03:04 PM
Ah...really...please explain...this should be good...you explaining salary cap rules to me....Im waiting...all ears....enlighten me....you say we have a payroll problem...which we will have in the offseason of 2014....or to be much more specific...the spring of 2015....so tell me how looking at trading your worst contract and most overpaid player when it would fix the payroll issue in one big swoop is leaving planet earth and against salary cap rules....pleeeeaase enlighten me oh brilliant one....

Who is taking on Roy Hibbert's deal if it is such a bad contract. You can't just walk away from a deal in the NBA, I'm sure you're aware of that. Secondly, if you move him, you have to take salary back, surely you know this as well.

If it isn't that bad of a contract and someone else would take him, why would we get rid of Roy.

I mean the admins ask this to stop, but hey you just keep being all passive aggressive. I've never claimed to be brilliant or to enlighten anyone, all I am doing is trying to have a discussion.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 03:18 PM
Ok, we've officially left planet earth. And also apparently salary cap rules.




I mean the admins ask this to stop, but hey you just keep being all passive aggressive. I've never claimed to be brilliant or to enlighten anyone, all I am doing is trying to have a discussion.

Hmmm....yea...ok...if you say so...i musta missed the discussion part in that first post...

Since86
02-28-2013, 03:22 PM
That being said, I am so grateful that Paul and Danny have these kind of personalities, and they both do the little things. During the Warriors game, Paul had a moment where a child behind the Warriors bench caught the ball when it went out of bounds. He tossed it to Paul as Paul was walking by and Paul tossed it back to him playfully and then asked him if could throw it to the ref. The kid was maybe 10 or 11, and I am sure a Pacer fan for life was born that moment. Those are the things that Paul, Danny, and Roy all clearly understand. That builds a bond between a young fan and a young player. That is one of the special things about sports, and why following sports is "worth it". We are lucky to have these kind of guys around our franchise.

They caught it on the telecast. I was gonna bring it up, and totally spaced it after everything that went down.

It really is simple gestures like that, that go along way.

count55
02-28-2013, 03:22 PM
So...many...ellipses...

Peck
02-28-2013, 03:22 PM
There is no "we must trade Granger" side to this argument though lol

Sure there is. It may not be the "he sucks and is holding back Paul" type of comment we were getting earlier, but it is now more along the lines of because of salary cap issues he has to be traded.

Not as insidious but still with the same end result.

All I'm asking is that we just appreciate the article and the spirit of the club in this thread. If you guys want to open up another thread and talk till your hearts content I'm all for it, but just to me it seems like the wrong place to have this debate. :twocents:

DrFife
02-28-2013, 03:23 PM
So could we please please please focus on the fact that right here and now we are pretty damn good and this team has special chemistry?

That's EASY!

1) Think about KG barking, Noah flailing, and DWade preening
2) Reread the Reiter article
3) Click below, max volume

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ANCjrzSJOsU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 03:27 PM
Sure there is. It may not be the "he sucks and is holding back Paul" type of comment we were getting earlier, but it is now more along the lines of because of salary cap issues he has to be traded.

Not as insidious but still with the same end result.

All I'm asking is that we just appreciate the article and the spirit of the club in this thread. If you guys want to open up another thread and talk till your hearts content I'm all for it, but just to me it seems like the wrong place to have this debate. :twocents:

Ok I don't understand this though, who has said he has to be traded.

All I've been saying is it could happen.

Anyway, my intent was not to bring down the thread. All I did was post about how much I liked Danny and how if we are watching his last stint as a Pacer, we should all enjoy it. And I got it thrown back in my face that I was being irrational and pessimistic.

the pac
02-28-2013, 03:32 PM
Nice story. Always loved Granger AND i love what he has done for this team. Really appreciate you putting this up

Cousy47
02-28-2013, 03:36 PM
Well, I'm glad we could throw some cold water on this TRULY nice article. I had throat lumps for awhile there. I first became a fan of Granger's while he was at New Mexico and have grown to admire and respect him more every year since. We DON'T have a salary problem with DG's contract this year or next. We have a David West problem this season. With David's contract ending, Tyler and DJ being gone(probably) after this year, we would have 13-16 million available to keep West. Could we maybe use a little of this money to extend Lance or George? I would HATE to see us lose Danny for free at the end of his contract, but if he continues to have problems with his health, he may well decide to retire or take a smaller role to continue his career. He may very well get permission to build his BATCAVE and become a secret crime fighter instead of playing basketball. Let's see how far this team can go this year. "Sufficient unto the day, is the evil thereof". Or "Never do today, what you can put off until tomorrow"!

Sollozzo
02-28-2013, 03:39 PM
I went thru all these numbers in the Hibbert thread...do I think they will go into the tax? not likely, but who knows. And I said it would very well cost more than 12 to keep David as well. But again who knows. Ill say it again. We agree on a couple of things here. You must do all you can to keep George. And he almost certainly will sign an extension before ever reaching FA. They will re-sign David because they have to. Only way they dont is if he doesnt want to come back, which is always a possibility but would seem unlikely at this point. In the pecking order, Danny is next. Thats where I think many of you are waaaaayyyyyyy off base. Its not George Hill or Roy Hibbert. And this article shouldve only made it that much more clear. Yet some here take it as even more reason to think Danny will be gone. Ridiculous I say. Just plain ridiculous. Whatever David signs for will likely be a bargain. George will get the max barring some major catastrophe, which would make this conversation meaningless then. Danny is already at a bargain contract and likely will be re-signed to somewhat of a bargain contract when the time comes. The contract that is not a bargain sticks out like a sore thumb. If they have money issues- which will be likely-you typically look at your bad contracts first and see if something can be done with them. And I think this situation will be no different and thats exactly what they will do.

You're wrong. He's not ahead of them in the pecking order. Hibbert and Hill have sizable contracts that extend beyond Granger's. We are committed to them after Granger's deal expires next year.

It comes down to West, George, and Granger. It's pretty much a no-brainer that we have to keep West and Paul George. It's simple mathematics that keeping Granger after committing money to those two is going to be extremely difficult considering the money we already have in Roy and Hill. Saying that Granger is "the heart and soul" of the team or that he is more important than Hill or Hibbert is completely irrelevant because the simple fact is that we have already committed to those two players. They are sunk cost right now. Theoretically, we have three guys in West, George, and Granger that will be commanding big bucks in the near future. Amongst those three, Granger is clearly last in terms of necessity.

HickeyS2000
02-28-2013, 03:42 PM
That's EASY!
1) Think about KG barking, Noah flailing, and DWade preening


I lol'd

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WlnA7I4ut6c/T8EuOxniSSI/AAAAAAAAAH0/tAie4_ATucc/s320/DwyaneWadePinkPants.jpg

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 03:44 PM
My final thought, Danny is just an incredible human being.

But when he says a lot of what he is saying, it is almost like he knows. I would love for Danny to end the career as a Pacer, but the writing seems to be on the wall. We may be watching the last 40 or so games of #33.

Sad. :(


Ok I don't understand this though, who has said he has to be traded.

All I've been saying is it could happen.

Anyway, my intent was not to bring down the thread. All I did was post about how much I liked Danny and how if we are watching his last stint as a Pacer, we should all enjoy it. And I got it thrown back in my face that I was being irrational and pessimistic.

Hmmm....maybe you might want to go back and reread the thread....

Sollozzo
02-28-2013, 03:45 PM
I actually don't think we'll trade Granger. I just think that we won't be able to afford him in a year. IMO, the only way we keep him is if he's a shell of his former self and isn't able to command high dollar from someone else.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 03:46 PM
You people sure can take away a natural high from such an inspirational article.

Could we please visit the "we must trade Granger" or the "Danny must stay at all cost" in another thread? What you are doing (both sides) is basically pissing on the spirit of the article.

The future is the future, we are living in the here and now and Danny can't be traded till after the season. So could we please please please focus on the fact that right here and now we are pretty damn good and this team has special chemistry?

You people? What do you mean you people?

cdash
02-28-2013, 03:47 PM
Hmmm....maybe you might want to go back and reread the thread....

I don't see anywhere where he said Danny has to be traded. All he said was that we "may" be watching his last 40 or so games in a Pacers uniform and that it appears the writing is on the wall. He's entertaining it as a very real possibility (which it is, sadly), but he isn't saying that Danny has to be traded.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 03:48 PM
Hmmm....maybe you might want to go back and reread the thread....

I can't tell if you are being serious at this point or not.

Where in this post do I say he has to be traded or that he will be traded.

The closest I get to anything like that is

"We may be watching the last 40 or so games of #33"

Do you see the "may be" there? Or are you just being a dick on purpose?

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 03:52 PM
You're wrong. He's not ahead of them in the pecking order. Hibbert and Hill have sizable contracts that extend beyond Granger's. We are committed to them after Granger's deal expires next year.

It comes down to West, George, and Granger. It's pretty much a no-brainer that we have to keep West and Paul George. It's simple mathematics that keeping Granger after committing money to those two is going to be extremely difficult considering the money we already have in Roy and Hill. Saying that Granger is "the heart and soul" of the team or that he is more important than Hill or Hibbert is completely irrelevant because the simple fact is that we have already committed to those two players. They are sunk cost right now. Theoretically, we have three guys in West, George, and Granger that will be commanding big bucks in the near future. Amongst those three, Granger is clearly last in terms of necessity.

No...not wrong at all....just because guys were signed to deals doesnt mean we have any more of a committment to them than to anyone else per se....are you really going to tell me that the team is more committed to Gerald Greene than Danny Granger, David West, and Paul George because we have a longer deal with Green? No, dont think so....just because we have them signed to deals doesnt mean we wont trade them to make room for someone else. Its a really simple concept. Here, let me give you a very simple example to the very simple concept. Denver signed Nene to a rather pricey contract because they had to to keep him or else they would lose him for nothing. You protect the asset. Happens all the time. The pacers didnt want to pay Hibbert what they did. But they had no choice. It was either pay him or lose him for nothing. So they did the right thing and paid him to keep him. Especiallysince their payroll was such they could afford to overpay for a couple years and not affect anything signifcantly. But the time is coming that they will have issues. And thats when its likely certain decisions will be made.

The point was simple. You read that article and I would think most sane individuals would say wow. HOw lucky are we to have such a great guy playing for us. Just a class act. And we have been incredibly lucky. And we obviously will do everything possible to make sure he retires a Pacer. You dont read that article and go wow....what a great guy....hes outta here...and sooner rather than later. Lol..cmon.

rabid
02-28-2013, 03:54 PM
Could we please visit the "we must trade Granger" or the "Danny must stay at all cost" in another thread? What you are doing (both sides) is basically pissing on the spirit of the article.

Peck can you please split this out into another thread? I have a feeling most ppl would approve of that, including most of the people having the current debate....

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 03:56 PM
Peck can you please split this out into another thread? I have a feeling most ppl would approve of that, including most of the people having the current debate....

It's not a debate when one side keeps having words put into their mouth.

Please anyone go back and re-read my first three posts in this thread, that elicited cinotimz accusation to me that I was being pessimistic and irrational and tell me if I was in fact being pessimistic or irrational or just discussing a realistic scenario. That has been discussed by several PDers after the last several Pacers games.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 03:56 PM
No...not wrong at all....just because guys were signed to deals doesnt mean we have any more of a committment to them than to anyone else per se....are you really going to tell me that the team is more committed to Gerald Greene than Danny Granger, David West, and Paul George because we have a longer deal with Green? No, dont think so....just because we have them signed to deals doesnt mean we wont trade them to make room for someone else. Its a really simple concept. Here, let me give you a very simple example to the very simple concept. Denver signed Nene to a rather pricey contract because they had to to keep him or else they would lose him for nothing. You protect the asset. Happens all the time. The pacers didnt want to pay Hibbert what they did. But they had no choice. It was either pay him or lose him for nothing. So they did the right thing and paid him to keep him. Especiallysince their payroll was such they could afford to overpay for a couple years and not affect anything signifcantly. But the time is coming that they will have issues. And thats when its likely certain decisions will be made.

The point was simple. You read that article and I would think most sane individuals would say wow. HOw lucky are we to have such a great guy playing for us. Just a class act. And we have been incredibly lucky. And we obviously will do everything possible to make sure he retires a Pacer. You dont read that article and go wow....what a great guy....hes outta here...and sooner rather than later. Lol..cmon.

Got it, so lets trade Roy and Hill for expiring contracts and call it a day.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 03:58 PM
I don't see anywhere where he said Danny has to be traded. All he said was that we "may" be watching his last 40 or so games in a Pacers uniform and that it appears the writing is on the wall. He's entertaining it as a very real possibility (which it is, sadly), but he isn't saying that Danny has to be traded.

Lol...and like ive said...a million times...there is nothing...nothing...NOT A DAMN THING...that makes it a very real possibility that Danny will be traded. And whether you or TJ or anyone keeps saying it, it doesnt make it true. As ive said...this article makes it that much clearer that its a very distinct possibility he will never play in any other uniform other than a Pacers uniform. Not sure how that escapes some of you. Bird, Walsh, Pritchard etc know Dannyand what he means to the team. This article may have been enlightening to some but not others. Why do u think Bird always said he would never trade Danny? All this article does is make it that much more clear to fans why management will not likely trade him or let him go elsewhere. Yall are funny...really. Danny is the type of guy you keep. If push comes to shove you get rid of others. Hes in the Tim Duncan mold. The Reggie mold. Hes a rare breed and the article only exemplifies that. The Pacers will find a way to make sure he retires a Pacer. As its quite clear that Danny wants that as well. Rare is the dday you are drafted and retire in the same uniform. Danny Granger is that rare. This article gives us some insight as to why.

Sollozzo
02-28-2013, 03:58 PM
No...not wrong at all....just because guys were signed to deals doesnt mean we have any more of a committment to them than to anyone else per se....are you really going to tell me that the team is more committed to Gerald Greene than Danny Granger, David West, and Paul George because we have a longer deal with Green? No, dont think so....just because we have them signed to deals doesnt mean we wont trade them to make room for someone else. Its a really simple concept. Here, let me give you a very simple example to the very simple concept. Denver signed Nene to a rather pricey contract because they had to to keep him or else they would lose him for nothing. You protect the asset. Happens all the time. The pacers didnt want to pay Hibbert what they did. But they had no choice. It was either pay him or lose him for nothing. So they did the right thing and paid him to keep him. Especiallysince their payroll was such they could afford to overpay for a couple years and not affect anything signifcantly. But the time is coming that they will have issues. And thats when its likely certain decisions will be made.

The point was simple. You read that article and I would think most sane individuals would say wow. HOw lucky are we to have such a great guy playing for us. Just a class act. And we have been incredibly lucky. And we obviously will do everything possible to make sure he retires a Pacer. You dont read that article and go wow....what a great guy....hes outta here...and sooner rather than later. Lol..cmon.

Right, virtually the only way it could work is if we trade Hibbert or Hill. In a year, both of those guys will be what, 27 years old? If you think that we're going to trade our 27 year old center who anchors our defense, or our 27 year old clutch pg who is the best PG we've had since Jackson, simply so we can keep a 31 year old player who we went 34-21 without, and who has essentially been replaced on the roster by a 22 year old stud on the verge of stardom...then that's your prerogative.

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 04:00 PM
It's not a debate when one side keeps having words put into their mouth.

Please anyone go back and re-read my first three posts in this thread, that elicited cinotimz accusation to me that I was being pessimistic and irrational and tell me if I was in fact being pessimistic or irrational or just discussing a realistic scenario. That has been discussed by several PDers after the last several Pacers games.

Please go back and find where cinotimz even mentioned you. I quoted noone. Funny that you took exception to such a generic comment not directed at anyone in particular. Hmmmm...You however did quote me...to which I then did respond directly to you since you had singled me out. I never did such to you. You did that on your own. Now if you took exception to such...well...that pretty much says it all...and who are you really trying to kid??? You have been going on how you think Danny is done after the season for some time. So please give it a rest with this innnocent victim routine.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2013, 04:01 PM
Peck can you please split this out into another thread? I have a feeling most ppl would approve of that, including most of the people having the current debate....

Absolutely.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 04:01 PM
Shame on me for saying that if these were to be Danny's last games in a Pacers uniform that we make sure to enjoy them and show our appreciation. Honestly, shame on me, I had no idea it would bring this about. All I was saying was that if it were to happen I hope we all could say that we had appreciated that time we had with him as a Pacer.

Completely my fault, had no idea someone could overreact like this to such an innocent comment.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 04:04 PM
Please go back and find where cinotimz even mentioned you. I quoted noone. Funny that you took exception to such a generic comment not directed at anyone in particular. Hmmmm...You however did quote me...to which I then did respond directly to you since you had singled me out. I never did such to you. You did that on your own. Now if you took exception to such...well...that pretty much says it all...and who are you really trying to kid??? You have been going on how you think Danny is done after the season for some time. So please give it a rest with this innnocent victim routine.

Please provide proof that I have been "going on" that Danny is done after this season for some time. I mean good Lord, NaptownSeth has attended the last several games with me in person and he can attest that I have been waxing poetical about how you can see Danny is still very much the same player and that he is already on the verge of putting his game back together and that he will end up being not only valuable to our playoff chances this year, but a crucial piece to our success. But clearly, I have been driving the run Danny out of town bandwagon for some time. That is why I wore his jersey to the Warriors game on Tuesday. It's all part of my plan.

And, I didn't call you out. All I said was you were overreacting to some innocent comments, which is still what you are doing.

cdash
02-28-2013, 04:05 PM
Please go back and find where cinotimz even mentioned you.

Finally, someone on PD has referred to themselves in the third person. I've been waiting almost four years for this moment.

vnzla81
02-28-2013, 04:08 PM
Shame on me for saying that if these were to be Danny's last games in a Pacers uniform that we make sure to enjoy them and show our appreciation. Honestly, shame on me, I had no idea it would bring this about. All I was saying was that if it were to happen I hope we all could say that we had appreciated that time we had with him as a Pacer.

Completely my fault, had no idea someone could overreact like this to such an innocent comment.

Now you know how I feel sometimes :laugh:

rabid
02-28-2013, 04:18 PM
It's not a debate when one side keeps having words put into their mouth.

Please anyone go back and re-read my first three posts in this thread, that elicited cinotimz accusation to me that I was being pessimistic and irrational and tell me if I was in fact being pessimistic or irrational or just discussing a realistic scenario. That has been discussed by several PDers after the last several Pacers games.

Whoa whoa whoa I am in total agreement with you! I've been defending you on here (I don't quite agree with the "writing is on the wall" comment but I certainly have no problem with you saying it). You totally have to defend yourself and have been exercising a ton of restraint (I am about to put this guy on ignore honestly).

I just agree with Peck that the back-and-forth is very unfortunate and distracting and that this thread has deviated very far away from what the article was about.

EDIT: and that it would be very nice to split off this thread, there are other aspects of this great article that I'd rather be discussing.

I'm totally not attacking you at all man.

tadscout
02-28-2013, 04:18 PM
Sooo, ummm... yeah...

What an awesome article! :)

cinotimz
02-28-2013, 04:19 PM
Shame on me for saying that if these were to be Danny's last games in a Pacers uniform that we make sure to enjoy them and show our appreciation. Honestly, shame on me, I had no idea it would bring this about. All I was saying was that if it were to happen I hope we all could say that we had appreciated that time we had with him as a Pacer.

Completely my fault, had no idea someone could overreact like this to such an innocent comment.

nice try...but thats not what you did...at all...you said after reading the article you felt even more like the writing was on the wall and danny knew it....and he would be gone...

yes...shame on you...for reading that article and somehow being sad because it made you think that Danny would soon be gone...in fact in your words...his last 40 or so games....

keep dancing...the more you talk the worse it gets.

rabid
02-28-2013, 04:21 PM
keep dancing...the more you talk the worse it gets.

I have a feeling you have no idea how you are coming off here.

Trader Joe
02-28-2013, 04:22 PM
nice try...but thats not what you did...at all...you said after reading the article you felt even more like the writing was on the wall and danny knew it....and he would be gone...

yes...shame on you...for reading that article and somehow being sad because it made you think that Danny would soon be gone...in fact in your words...his last 40 or so games....

keep dancing...the more you talk the worse it gets.

I'm going to leave this thread with this, you couldn't be any further from the truth of what I actually said or what my intent was. Luckily, I feel like most people who actually understand the English language understand that.

As far as dancing, I've never been a big dancer, but maybe I should have picked it up. Might have helped my footwork.

Sandman21
02-28-2013, 04:26 PM
I have a feeling you have no idea how you are coming off here.

Just ignore him. He once accused someone of being Walsh' son in law.

Peck
02-28-2013, 05:11 PM
sigh.....

Look I have to leave for the game so I just don't have time to separate the posts right now, if it is still going on when I get back I might do it then. But IMO by that time it will be to late.

I don't want to say we have ruined what should have been an uplifting thread but well we have pretty much ruined what should have been an uplifting thread.

All anyone had to do was walk away from this and it would have been over but no the need to win the internet was to strong.

It truly was a great article though and now I look forward to supporting the team tonight, I know all of you do as well.

Sorry I guess I don't mean to sound preachy here but damn..... this just wasn't the time or place.

yoadknux
03-01-2013, 03:03 AM
I thought it was really funny when Granger talked about how Bird never calls him but called him about George

Trader Joe
03-01-2013, 08:55 AM
I thought it was really funny when Granger talked about how Bird never calls him but called him about George

Agreed, hilarious to imagine Bird after the second or third phone call, "Why won't Danny pick up his ****ing phone?"

Eleazar
03-01-2013, 09:13 AM
If Granger is able to get back to being old Granger then he will be back. If anyone is gone it will be West. Personally I don't think anyone will be gone unless they just demand an absurd amount of money.