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View Full Version : Actual Pacers/Warriors Postgame Thread: Basketball talk only please



mattie
02-26-2013, 11:03 PM
Go Pacers!

Great performances from West, Hill and PG.

Also of note - besides Curry's ungodly shooting, the rest of the Warriors didn't perform that well. I think the Pacers overall played some damn good defense, although there were a couple lapses early on.

http://i54.tinypic.com/30sdkb6.png
(Courtesy NBA.com)

PacersHomer
02-26-2013, 11:05 PM
David was a monster. He imposed his will against a PF who can't play D. We've seen it so much this season.

mattie
02-26-2013, 11:06 PM
David was a monster. He imposed his will against a PF who can't play D. We've seen it so much this season.

Yup. Just a monster game from him. It kind of gets lost just because of Curry's unbelievable game.. but man West had it going.

PacersHomer
02-26-2013, 11:07 PM
Curry's shooting was amazing but he made a bunch of awful passes. I'm surprised he only had 6 turnovers.

cdash
02-26-2013, 11:08 PM
I was flipping back and forth between the Pacers and Hoosiers all night--how did Danny look? The stat line isn't anything to write home about, but how was he moving, how was his timing, did he try to force the action, etc.

PacersHomer
02-26-2013, 11:10 PM
I was flipping back and forth between the Pacers and Hoosiers all night--how did Danny look? The stat line isn't anything to write home about, but how was he moving, how was his timing, did he try to force the action, etc.

Didn't hit rim on his first two shots, but once he started attacking the basket he got more confident. It's a work in progress but I don't think he is as far off as his statlines would say. Honestly everyone tried to force the action. We kept on trying to run plays for Danny when he wasn't feeling it. We didn't let the game come to him.

cdash
02-26-2013, 11:11 PM
Did Danny play more with the second unit or the starters? His minutes look more like they were with the second unit.

PacersHomer
02-26-2013, 11:12 PM
Did Danny play more with the second unit or the starters? His minutes look more like they were with the second unit.

2nd unit but West was out there for a good portion of it on his first appearance. George, Hill, and West were out there for his 2nd appearance.

Goyle
02-26-2013, 11:13 PM
I missed Danny's field goal, how did he get it?

Danny's looking okay, if he never gets his shot back I'm okay with our bench unit revolving around Danny and Tyler forcing the issue and trying to get to the line.

mattie
02-26-2013, 11:14 PM
I'd guess Danny's minutes were half and half. It was really nice seeing him be aggressive. He made several drives to the hoop. One led to a tip in, one led to his trip to the foul line very nice.

Also, couldn't help be get excited at one point seeing the bench out there and for the first time all season, not being scared. It was, DJ, OJ, Danny, Tyler and Ian. And they looked pretty good. I mean Danny playing a lot better freeing up Orlando for some outside shots and bam, that's a strong unit!

Oh and as to be expected, Danny just needs some time to get acclimated to NBA ball again. I mean he was exhausted!

PacersHomer
02-26-2013, 11:14 PM
I missed Danny's field goal, how did he get it?

Danny's looking okay, if he never gets his shot back I'm okay with our bench unit revolving around Danny and Tyler forcing the issue and trying to get to the line.

It was a pretty nice jumper IIRC. He created the shot and sank it. He'll get his shot back. He's always rusty to start, let alone coming off of a 9 month break.

Pacerfan
02-26-2013, 11:15 PM
I missed Danny's field goal, how did he get it?

Danny's looking okay, if he never gets his shot back I'm okay with our bench unit revolving around Danny and Tyler forcing the issue and trying to get to the line.

It was a classic Danny midrange pull up shot off the dribble. He's getting there. He definitely looked way more comfortable this game compared to last.

Pacergeek
02-26-2013, 11:17 PM
should I be concerned about Danny's horrendous start shooting the ball?

mattie
02-26-2013, 11:18 PM
Oh and the Warriors starting front line vs David West: 5-13, 12 points, 5 TO's.

West: 28, 3 TO on 16 shots. That was an *** beating.

David Lee is an allstar???? West beat a current All-Star, from the vaunted Western-Conference like a rented mule. BAMF.

mattie
02-26-2013, 11:19 PM
Do not refer to this team as "lacking talent." That's absurd.

cdash
02-26-2013, 11:20 PM
should I be concerned about Danny's horrendous start shooting the ball?

No. Wells pointed it out on Twitter during the game: Danny is a notoriously slow starter. Factor in that everyone else is in game shape by now and has had months of basketball to get into their rhythm, and it should come as no surprise.

Gold
02-26-2013, 11:20 PM
should I be concerned about Danny's horrendous start shooting the ball?

It's typical for anyone coming in after a big injury.....and very very typical for Danny Granger period. He has time to get back into it so nah.

ThA HoyA
02-26-2013, 11:20 PM
should I be concerned about Danny's horrendous start shooting the ball?

Green?? Lol

hard to tell if its sarcasm or not:-)

ThA HoyA
02-26-2013, 11:22 PM
Hibbert is making a lot more decisive moves and his hook is looking better and better, and Paul needs to stop trying to make the flashy pass, and stop being lazy with the ball.

rabid
02-26-2013, 11:27 PM
Before the mid-4th Roy was having a really solid game. 13 points, 9 rebounds, 5 blocks on 50 percent shooting. Not bad for only 28 minutes. Good to see the big man finding his groove.

xIndyFan
02-26-2013, 11:28 PM
Thought the Pacers just looked like the better basketball team tonight. As long as Curry made shots, they could keep it close, but that basically was the only chance they had. GSW looked a lot like the Monta Ellis Warriors. Short and little. Pesky, but unable to defend in the crunch. Roy just shot over them. So did David and Paul. Jack played hard, but Lance is bigger and stronger and in the end too much for JJ to handle. David Lee and Carl Landry are good players, but they were just fighting out of their weight class all night.

Just a nice job of beating up a decent team by a superior team. Their ability to make shots keep it close, but in the end, that was all it did.

xIndyFan
02-26-2013, 11:31 PM
No. Wells pointed it out on Twitter during the game: Danny is a notoriously slow starter. Factor in that everyone else is in game shape by now and has had months of basketball to get into their rhythm, and it should come as no surprise.

There were a couple of times Danny was off to the side, trying to get his breath. Not easy to say in shape when you're trying to take care of your knees. Especially game shape. Any quick running on Danny's part was followed by a couple minutes of heavy breathing. Funny to watch guys come back late in the season when everyone else is in mid-season form.

pizza guy
02-26-2013, 11:33 PM
Only got to see the fourth quarter, but I did catch Danny playing for a few minutes. He looks healthy and active, seems comfortable. Still the worst player on a fast break I think I've ever seen, lol. His only FGM looked good, like vintage Danny.

Bummer that Roy missed the last few minutes because I was loving his play in the fourth. GS could not get near the rim with any hope of making a bucket, and Roy was active on offense as well.

But, no big deal. Roy goes out, DWEST (whose name should always be in all CAPS) took over on both ends and closed this out.

I love our attacking offense. Getting up the court and being the aggressors. Our defense has been stunning all year, and now they're attacking just as hard on offense. No coincidence that we've won so many games by double digits now. Can't wait for the playoffs.

Dr. Awesome
02-26-2013, 11:35 PM
Fine...if no one else is going to say it I will...




THE PACERS WON A GAME THAT VIOLET PALMER OFFICIATED!!!! :buddies:

OrganizedConfusion
02-26-2013, 11:36 PM
Only got to see the fourth quarter, but I did catch Danny playing for a few minutes. He looks healthy and active, seems comfortable. Still the worst player on a fast break I think I've ever seen, lol. His only FGM looked good, like vintage Danny.


This. I know his shot selection has been questionable throughout his career but it's especially bad when he could've dumped it off to an open teammate on the break.

BornReady
02-26-2013, 11:38 PM
wooo way to go George Hill! Way to set the tone early! :) I hope he keeps this sort of play up!

2minutes twoa
02-26-2013, 11:40 PM
Nice win that takes us 4 games ahead of Chicago!

focused444
02-26-2013, 11:56 PM
Loved seeing Danny hit that routine jumper. Reminded me of old times. Must be a crazy adjustment period for him because I even forgot what watching him was like.

Seems like Danny has a knack for throwing soft passes Mahinmi actually can catch.

Naptown_Seth
02-27-2013, 12:36 AM
2nd unit but West was out there for a good portion of it on his first appearance. George, Hill, and West were out there for his 2nd appearance.
Yeah, this was a change from the Detroit game. Vogel worked to have Danny get some more "starters" time. For a short run it was basically the starters and Ian.

Danny's bucket came off a standard Danny drive to jumpshot, and so far in both games his shown that his moves aren't far off the norm. I think a small portion of his bad shooting is just nerves about missing. You can kinda see him get more confident as he gets involved or makes a play. There's a touch of "I don't want to spoil this" to his game.



In big part thanks to Curry the Warriors shot better from 3 than from 2. Crazy. Of course Curry was 7-10 from 2 and from 3. As I said on Twitter, this was similar to the game in GSW where he and Klay just couldn't be defended at times. In that game I recall Klay hitting a slump point too, but not as pronounced perhaps. Also in this case the Pacers scored the ball much better than they did out there and that ultimately made the difference.

Also for all his flopping Jarret Jack couldn't get his shot going. I really kinda hated his game tonight. He was really obsessing with some of his flop stuff. I couldn't believe they gave him the call on that old school sweep through where he basically fouls himself on PG's arms.


My Twitter game for the night was "which GSW big would foul out first". Stupid scrum ruined it because Biedrens was about to win I think. But Roy/West/Danny had their front line in foul trouble all game. I mean Lee or Carl Landry are defending David West??? Yes, please.


To me the most impressive thing was how the Pacers kept defending the drive and kick to the weakside. They read that for steals all night, or better put they often forced GSW to blatantly pass the ball to the Pacers trying to make that kickout (that wasn't there). It had to happend 5-6 times at the very least, probably more. Like one time it went to West but he lost it, so I don't think it counted as a steal.


Curry was annoying (for several reasons) but it's kinda cool to be at an NBA game when someone has it going like that. Of course we had 2 guys (West) and for awhile 3 (Hill), so apart from the scrum it was pretty darn entertaining.

PaceBalls
02-27-2013, 12:55 AM
Danny Granger seems to always shoot bad at the start of the season. He should be getting into his groove just before the playoffs.

We have to keep David West. He just owns everyone. I have only seen him get shut down one time this season, against the Grizzlies on New Years eve. He really should have been an all star this year.

PacersHomer
02-27-2013, 01:01 AM
One thing about Granger that makes me positive is that his D is already looking good. It's not as many minutes as usual but he's still playing hard on both ends. He just needs game shape. I bet it'll click for him in a week or two, he'll score 20, and the Danny we know and love will be back.

mattie
02-27-2013, 02:01 AM
I have come full circle on David West. Amazing what a different player he is this year. It's really Neatoh.

imawhat
02-27-2013, 02:31 AM
Has any Pacer in the past 10 seasons had a more quietly good season than George Hill? Dude's at 14.7pts/4rbs/5ast/1st in his first season as a full-time PG. And he's doing it while playing solid D and hitting clutch shots.

I feel like I've underappreciated him this season, but he's having a hell of a season.

AesopRockOn
02-27-2013, 02:41 AM
What was encouraging from Danny is what you guys have already pointed out: he got himself to the line. West and Tyler are really the only other players who both force contact in that way and get the respect from the refs. Paul will get there next year. I think Danny's transition will be a little smoother because he knows he can get those kinds of calls, get into a rhythm from the line, and start to hit jumpers off of cuts and screens. It's odd to consider a 2-17 shooting start encouraging, but the baby steps are exactly how I wanted to see him return.

I also thought Hill really played hard on D despite Curry's immaculate shooting and ankle-breaking ball handling. This team is just too fun to watch right now. I'd say put us on national TV more but...

CableKC
02-27-2013, 03:28 AM
Curry's shooting was amazing but he made a bunch of awful passes. I'm surprised he only had 6 turnovers.
Curry's shooting was the ONLY reason the Warriors were in it. With 2+ minutes in the 2nd QTR....the Pacers were up by 11....and by the end of the half....they were up by 1 or 2 pts ( I forget ). All because of Curry scoring a whole bunch of points in an instant.

Offensively...the Warriors...led by Curry, Lee, Jack, Klay and even Landry...are a highly efficient scoring Team. They are good at converting on each of their possesions. That's why they were in this game until the defense simply clamped down while the Pacers offense finally kicked in.

If the Pacers defense wasn't this good.....the Warriors easily could have won the game in the end. They kept on coming back and scoring.

Also...something to note....the Pacers on average keep teams from making up to 5 3pt Attempts a game. The Warriors made 12-21 ( 57% ) of the 3pt shots. Having the best 3pt shooting in the league hit 7-10 3pt attempts doesn't help.

skyfire
02-27-2013, 03:40 AM
Also for all his flopping Jarret Jack couldn't get his shot going. I really kinda hated his game tonight. He was really obsessing with some of his flop stuff. I couldn't believe they gave him the call on that old school sweep through where he basically fouls himself on PG's arms.


The sweep through is still a foul, but they have changed the rules this season so that it isn't a shooting foul.

Leroy Staley
02-27-2013, 07:18 AM
Yes, he is looking better and better. He really is a force defensively, and he is starting to be more forcefuul on his shots. I was worried after the first two Biedrins blocks, but he came right back at him. His shoorting percentage is creepign up. Good stuff.

Mac_Daddy
02-27-2013, 08:31 AM
I can't be the only one that really loathes the "Clear Path" foul, right? The only reason I see for its existence is that it allows for a showboat dunk and punishes the team trying to stop it from happening with 2 FTs and the ball.

Cactus Jax
02-27-2013, 08:38 AM
I can't be the only one that really loathes the "Clear Path" foul, right? The only reason I see for its existence is that it allows for a showboat dunk and punishes the team trying to stop it from happening with 2 FTs and the ball.

The Pacers definently got that call for some reason, but I kind of agree with the rule if its clearly ahead with noone in front, otherwise people would just foul off the ball. A highlight dunk or two is always nice and most players need clear path to do it.

Since86
02-27-2013, 10:21 AM
I have come full circle on David West. Amazing what a different player he is this year. It's really Neatoh.

Except the fact that he isn't a different player. He's a bigger part of the offensive scheme, but his numbers are pretty close to last years. He's shooting 0.05% better, and getting more assists due to having the ball more. His rebounding rate is pretty much identical, 1 every 4 mins, which is why he's getting 1 more rebound because he plays 4 more minutes.

This is why listening to how bad DWest was last year was so damn funny.

Since86
02-27-2013, 10:23 AM
I can't be the only one that really loathes the "Clear Path" foul, right? The only reason I see for its existence is that it allows for a showboat dunk and punishes the team trying to stop it from happening with 2 FTs and the ball.

I like the rule, but when it's bang-bang, I think they need to go with just a regular foul. Last nights call was horrible though. The foul happend the moment GH grabbed the ball and Lee was clearly between him and the Pacers basket.

Coopdog23
02-27-2013, 10:28 AM
I can't be the only one that really loathes the "Clear Path" foul, right? The only reason I see for its existence is that it allows for a showboat dunk and punishes the team trying to stop it from happening with 2 FTs and the ball.

I think they should take it away. I gives the team 2 FTs and the ball which is way worse than if you give up a dunk or lay-up

Mackey_Rose
02-27-2013, 10:32 AM
I think they should take it away. I gives the team 2 FTs and the ball which is way worse than if you give up a dunk or lay-up

That's the point.

naptownmenace
02-27-2013, 10:33 AM
David was a monster. He imposed his will against a PF who can't play D. We've seen it so much this season.

David West's basketball IQ is at an all-time high. He's not a quick as he used to be (he was never a track star to begin with) but he really understands the game and knows how to exploit his defender's weaknesses.

Eleazar
02-27-2013, 10:36 AM
Except the fact that he isn't a different player. He's a bigger part of the offensive scheme, but his numbers are pretty close to last years. He's shooting 0.05% better, and getting more assists due to having the ball more. His rebounding rate is pretty much identical, 1 every 4 mins, which is why he's getting 1 more rebound because he plays 4 more minutes.

This is why listening to how bad DWest was last year was so damn funny.

It goes beyond stats, and really has more to do with his defense than offense. His defense last year was pretty mediocre, still was at the beginning of the season, but it is now leagues better than it was.

Mackey_Rose
02-27-2013, 10:41 AM
Except the fact that he isn't a different player. He's a bigger part of the offensive scheme, but his numbers are pretty close to last years. He's shooting 0.05% better, and getting more assists due to having the ball more. His rebounding rate is pretty much identical, 1 every 4 mins, which is why he's getting 1 more rebound because he plays 4 more minutes.

This is why listening to how bad DWest was last year was so damn funny.

Offensively, I completely agree with you. He's basically the exact same player as he was last year, with a higher usage rate. Defensively, I think he has been much, much better this year. He's more active with his hands, his help-side rotation has been nearly flawless, and he moves so much more fluidly covering the pick and roll.

But seriously... DUH!! Anyone who didn't think having another full year after his knee surgery would help him, is a moron.

The guy is a great player. He was one of my favorites before he came here, and he's already in the argument for my all-time favorite Pacer ever. It won't surprise me to see some other team throw a ton of money at him, but the Pacers would have to be crazy not to make him their biggest priority after this season. If you have to cut bait on Danny Granger in the summer, in order to keep David West, I don't think that is even a debate. He's an absolute monster as a player, and even more important as a leader. If he isn't a Pacer next year, I'm going to be devastated.

Since86
02-27-2013, 10:41 AM
But it really isn't. West is the receipent of playing with a great defense team. He was a pretty good defender last year. He's never lost, he always has active hands. When the team you're playing on is a defensive juggernaut, it makes each individual look better due to the collective.


Is he the exact same player? Of course not. He moves so much better this year, but that should have been expected. Being a little slow, especially laterally, should be expected with a ACL injury, and not some launching pad for criticism, like it was.

Coopdog23
02-27-2013, 10:42 AM
That's the point.

What is the point of implementing the rule anyways?

ThA HoyA
02-27-2013, 10:48 AM
What is the point of implementing the rule anyways?

To reward the defense for making a steal or creating a turnover.... And being able to turn it into points instead of the team that turns it over bail themselves out an just grab the player

greyhound80
02-27-2013, 11:21 AM
I was at the game last night. I am just amazed at how good PGeorge is. He is going to be the best Pacer of all time IMO. When he, West and Hill are at a high level? Bring on ANYONE!!! You hear that Miami???
Concerns: Bench didn't play well at all last night. Ian played better after Roy was ejected. A minor thing I guess.
Please no suspensions also!!! The whole thing would have been over if Curry hadn't come over to grab Roy. He's the one who should get suspended. Thompson kept it going too.

Kstat
02-27-2013, 11:33 AM
What is the point of implementing the rule anyways?

Fast breaks are good for the flow of a game. Teams should not be rewarded for screwing up and then grabbing a guy from behind, which is what it means when you commit a clear path foul. If you want to foul a guy to take away a dunk, you should have to be back on defense first.

Good, physical fouls have their place in the game, but in that scenario, it's just cheap. I absolutely hated clear path fouls before the rule was implemented. I wish FIBA would follow suit.

Trader Joe
02-27-2013, 11:35 AM
I can't be the only one that really loathes the "Clear Path" foul, right? The only reason I see for its existence is that it allows for a showboat dunk and punishes the team trying to stop it from happening with 2 FTs and the ball.

They do the same thing in soccer and hockey on breakaways. There is a punishment if you interfere with someone with a clear path.

naptownmenace
02-27-2013, 12:11 PM
The Pacers definently got that call for some reason, but I kind of agree with the rule if its clearly ahead with noone in front, otherwise people would just foul off the ball. A highlight dunk or two is always nice and most players need clear path to do it.

I love the clear path foul. IMHO, it's one of the best rule changes the NBA has ever made. Getting rid of the hand-checking and defensive 3-second warning were also great moves.

TinManJoshua
02-27-2013, 12:21 PM
They do the same thing in soccer and hockey on breakaways. There is a punishment if you interfere with someone with a clear path.

Soccer is way worse, honestly. A clear path foul doesn't automatically eject you from a game.

Trader Joe
02-27-2013, 12:23 PM
Meh, not worse IMO, just different rules.

PacersHomer
02-27-2013, 12:33 PM
Meh, not worse IMO, just different rules.

Huge difference between a goal in soccer and a lay-up in basketball too.

TinManJoshua
02-27-2013, 12:33 PM
Meh, not worse IMO, just different rules.

Worse is a bad choice of words. More severe? It's more for the offending team to overcome.

Mackey_Rose
02-27-2013, 01:16 PM
Worse is a bad choice of words. More severe? It's more for the offending team to overcome.

Like PacersHomer astutely pointed out, losing a clear goal scoring opportunity in a soccer game, (when 1 goal might ultimately be the only one scored in the game) is much more punitive to the offended team, so it all essentially evens out.

Coopdog23
02-27-2013, 02:09 PM
To reward the defense for making a steal or creating a turnover.... And being able to turn it into points instead of the team that turns it over bail themselves out an just grab the player

I think it should just be a foul and we play on. It can be a huge, deciding play for just fouling someone

Kstat
02-27-2013, 02:19 PM
I think it should just be a foul and we play on. It can be a huge, deciding play for just fouling someone

You know what's a huge, deciding play? A live ball turnover.

You've already put yourself in that position by not taking care of the ball. You don't get to bail yourself out by tugging on the back of someone's jersey.

Don't foul if you don't want to give up two baskets instead of one.

Naptown_Seth
02-27-2013, 10:03 PM
Exactly. Rules in sports are meant to punish teams that play the wrong way. So when teams/people find "loopholes" then the sporting org has to adjust rules to maintain the spirit of the initial rule. A foul being used as a positive play is not in the spirit of the game, but if you stop a sure dunk and turn it into 2 FTAs or a sideout, then you got a massive benefit from the foul.

Sure 1 foul hurts a little bit, and more if you are in foul trouble. But often it is a blip on the radar where as the game might be decided by 1-2 points.




It reminds me of people that hate the infield fly rule, but would hate it a lot more if Jeter just intentionally drop a pop out and then turned the 3B to 2B double play to get 2 outs instead of 1. Before the IF rule that would be "legal" but it was clearly not the intent of the sport - to be better off failing to make a play.

The funniest thing is that it's usually fans of the hitting team that get mad about the rule....because they are idiots of course.

Naptown_Seth
02-27-2013, 10:19 PM
Someone in the other thread asked me about the steals and why they were called bad passes. I said I'd look at the tape to see if I thought it was scheme, a great play or just tons of bad passes.

I then spent about an hour or more working up each TO for the first half when my CPU rebooted for updates out of the blue. Brutal. :(


But the summary of them all would be this - many of them had tons to do with Paul and Hill's length, very high awareness by Hill, Paul and West where they read plays before they unfold (especially PG who is 1/2 second ahead of the game on that end), and some scheme.

They trap a lot of PnR, West was able to hedge the ball out pretty badly a few times (once to the HC line), and they are running a scheme where the weakside guy makes a point to drop to the other high post on drives and swipe at the ball. The effect is not to make the steal but rather to force the dribble up a bit early.

This leads to easier blocks for Roy or the ball being stopped and looking for a bail out pass back to the weakside arc...where Paul typically gobbles it up. One time a pass went right to Danny just standing there, he didn't even have to move.

You see good hands by all of the big 3. I'd say about 40% of the GSW 1st half possession featured some level of ball disruption, even if it was just tipped away or knocked OOB.


GSW tried to vary the PnR from the top of the arc at first to going from the sideline toward the lane. Coming from the sideline seemed to work worse.



Then GSW got clever and tried to burn our help on PnR. They ran a high PnR and from that passed it to Lee in the low post. So you have Curry on that side (just passed the ball) with Lee attacking and the Pick (Landry? I forget) going down the lane. Paul is defending Klay I think on the high wing.

The trick is to draw Paul to help on the pick cutting the lane for the easy layup, but Lee is going to skip pass out to Klay. This is NOT A READ, this is the play as drawn up because Klay is moving before Lee even has the ball and Lee goes immediately into the pass.

But this is where Paul is great. He sees what is happening, you can pause and see him catch himself just on Lee's eyes. The pass hasn't left yet but he can see it will. So he jumps that passing lane, and ironically is partially hidden from Lee because of the pick man.

This ends up as basically a pick 6 steal, he's on the move as he catches it and is somewhat ahead of all the Warriors. That play isn't "scheme" per se, that's a Paul George read of a play. Massive defensive awareness.


Again the length is a big factor that allows the schemes to work and the awareness to pay off. Hill had a couple of tips, blocks or steals where he just had the length to rise up and get to a shot or lob pass. Paul the same. And while West isn't using lengthy really, his footwork, awareness, and quick hands are making him massively effective at disrupting plays.


Roy helps all of this too by being there to clean up, allowing for greater push away from the rim. But in some ways these guys are also helping him because they are setting up the plays at the rim to be weaker attempts ripe for blocking.