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View Full Version : I am not entirely happy with this so suggestions are welcome (response to Colin Cowherd)



Ragnar
02-24-2013, 06:31 PM
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/alE1GQ20kzQ?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

I thought a video answer to Colin Cowherd was warranted.

Naptown_Seth
02-24-2013, 06:53 PM
David West, George Hill, Roy Hibbert and Danny Granger ARE NOT POPULAR...thus Cowherd's original point.

If they WERE popular (as they should be), then this response would be moot because CC wouldn't have said anything in the first place. They should be popular because they have played great basketball together, West was big name FA signing, Hill is from Ripple and IUPUI, and Danny was already an all-star. Bringing them up undermines your point completely.


Second, the rebuttle would be "sure, BEFORE the brawl you could embrace black players, but after the brawl you started associating them with thugs". He could suggest that in the same way 9/11 changed how people thought, the brawl had that impact on Indiana viewing the NBA/Pacers.


Third, and what Kravitz got wrong, is that CC never called it as some overt, hostile racial hangup.


Fourth, a case can be made that bringing in Dun and Troy was far too late, most fans stopped watching and didn't even know they were on the team.



But I can concede that while Tyler got massively unnatural positive support vs actual earned support, McRoberts got jack squat for putting up basically identical numbers and more exciting dunks. That was white vs white and the response from the same fan base was different. *I'm sure none of it had to with a choice of Duke over IU by a local kid. ;)



You 100% cannot cite A55/G2 or someone like me who's gone to those various road games. We are the ones already going and the point is directed at the people that don't go, that don't support Hill, West, Roy or Danny. Why don't those people like David West but did like Dale Davis? That's the question your video needs to answer. Because if it's how he plays or the team's talent level, that's just flat out wrong. BAMF in 2 years is moving quickly toward the top of the "Best Pacers PF" pantheon, and I even hear Peck speaking in those terms now.

I appreciate the effort and I'm trying to help actually. The Tyler vs Josh makes a strong point, but the stuff you are bringing up do not actually contradict CC's points. If you want to "win" the debate you need to find stuff that does. Maybe if we have 2000+ bump in attendance the rest of the year the case can be made "they just didn't know the team and the star was missing, who is black". That would be strong. It has to come true first, which would be nice if it did.

Nuntius
02-24-2013, 07:06 PM
Ragnar, Cowherd didn't accuse the Pacers fans of being racists. He accused the Indiana fans that are not Pacers fans currently and probably will never be ones of being racists.

At least, that's my take as an outsider to this issue. I may be wrong, of course.

Ragnar
02-24-2013, 07:18 PM
The never were Pacer fans would not account for a drop in attendance. The attendance for Pacer games started dropping after the nightclub incidents but that also coincided with a huge downturn in the economy.

Maybe I need to reword it as, I am one of the people who stopped watching the Pacers and my reasons were Troy, Dunleavy and Obrien. My favorite players have been etc etc.

He was tying the attendance drop to racism. Racist non pacer fans were not attending before the drop. The people who stopped did so because the product was terrible. I got to a point where I could not watch another game coached by Satan so I stopped.

Nuntius
02-24-2013, 07:24 PM
I got to a point where I could not watch another game coached by Satan so I stopped.

That's understandable. You're watching now. You're back.

Those people that Cowherd refers to are not back yet. Why?

This is the question that he's trying to answer.

cgg
02-24-2013, 07:25 PM
I think the whole thing is a bit over blown and that attendance is trending up and will continue to go up. My uncle was a former season ticket holder. Last year he went to some games and the play offs. This year he has a mini package. Next year maybe he'll get season tickets. There's probably plenty of people like that.

esabyrn333
02-24-2013, 07:43 PM
I personally think Colin is right....

BUT it's not just Indiana fans its everywhere.

I get around and work with people from all over the U.S. most of them don't watch NBA at all cause they think its just a bunch of ghetto thugs.....

Most quit watching the NBA after Jordan left Chicago.

The NBA does a horrible job marketing itself outside of the local areas, for example

I'm currently in South Dakota during the NFL season we get all the Vikings Games and Broncos games on TV every Sunday. You see commercials, all kinds of advertisements for these two teams.

During the NBA season they only show nationally televised games... No Nuggets & No Timberwolves games are ever on TV no commercials or anything.

The same thing held true when I lived in Biloxi Mississippi.... Saints 24/7.... You wouldn't know the Hornets played just 45 miles away. Plus since New Orleans was in a different state we didn't get any games on Fox Sports South.....

So if you are not a big time fan all you think of is the Iverson era (Big Chains & Thug ware)

This is a NBA problem not just an Indiana problem

esabyrn333
02-24-2013, 07:45 PM
If they could get a contract with ABC, NBC or CBS & set it up like the NFL and have your game depend on the region you lived in it would boost the NBA's marketability greatly

Start it every Sunday after the Superbowl.....

Sollozzo
02-24-2013, 07:48 PM
Why don't those people like David West but did like Dale Davis? That's the question your video needs to answer.

Dale Davis was drafted by the Pacers, grew up with the Pacers, and then was a vital cog on Pacer teams that went to five Eastern Conference Finals, as well as the NBA Finals in 2000. David West OTOH is only in his second season with the club. David West is the best Pacer free agent signing ever, but he has not left the imprint that Davis did. He simply hasn't been a Pacer long enough.

cgg
02-24-2013, 07:51 PM
He's popular with people that watch the games. Hard to like him when you're not watching games yet.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2013, 01:52 AM
David West is 500x the complete player that Dale Bruiser Davis was not. Who cares how long he spent with the Hornets, we've got something special at the PF position right now. David West is better defensively than Dale was on offense, and is better on offense than Dale was on defense. If those are the two power forwards to pick from, I'm choosing David West 100 times out of 100 over Dale Davis.

I could even understand fans being skeptical about: let's see if Paul George keeps this up. So let's toss that aside... even if we hardcore fans might view his progression differently... even without him, David West and George Hill should be electrifying the city already.

Is Paul George eventually going to run into the, "He's not Reggie, he's not as good as Reggie" crap that has continues to haunt Jalen Rose and Jermaine O'Neal's legacy. Even on here, with avid fans, two of the top five players to wear the Pacers' uniform during the NBA era (and probably the best player to wear a Pacers' NBA uniform) are continually dismissed.

I get sick of that even among this great community. That's got to make a signficantly negative impact on the casual fans when even the hardcore fans on a site like this diss JO and Rose.

Peck
02-25-2013, 03:42 AM
David West is 500x the complete player that Dale Bruiser Davis was not. Who cares how long he spent with the Hornets, we've got something special at the PF position right now. David West is better defensively than Dale was on offense, and is better on offense than Dale was on defense. If those are the two power forwards to pick from, I'm choosing David West 100 times out of 100 over Dale Davis.

I could even understand fans being skeptical about: let's see if Paul George keeps this up. So let's toss that aside... even if we hardcore fans might view his progression differently... even without him, David West and George Hill should be electrifying the city already.

Is Paul George eventually going to run into the, "He's not Reggie, he's not as good as Reggie" crap that has continues to haunt Jalen Rose and Jermaine O'Neal's legacy. Even on here, with avid fans, two of the top five players to wear the Pacers' uniform during the NBA era (and probably the best player to wear a Pacers' NBA uniform) are continually dismissed.

I get sick of that even among this great community. That's got to make a signficantly negative impact on the casual fans when even the hardcore fans on a site like this diss JO and Rose.

I'll stop the moment you stop about Clark & Herb. :)

ChicagoJ
02-25-2013, 11:18 AM
I'll stop the moment you stop about Clark & Herb. :)

:laugh:

Well, there's still one important difference.

When they win more than 96 games over four years, or are better than 0.500 together in the Big Ten (and I believe we all agree that the Big Ten, even back in the 1980's, was vastly inferior to the NBA.) then I'll stop referring to them as the main reason those teams stunk.

Hey, somebody had to be the best players and leading scorers on those awful teams. Doesn't mean they were actually "good", just the best of our wretched teams.

I'm not always whining and moaning about some of the better players from some of our better teams in our franchise history. (None of this is personally about you, Peck, you just "volunteered" to be the voice of the, "hey, let's trash our own players" crowd.)

I'm picking on the key members of 96 wins over four seasons. Even in a shorter period of time (by about 1/2 a season), Jim O'Brien's teams won 121 games and their worst season was significantly better than Clark's/ Herb's best season together.

I suppose you want to say that's becasue Jim O'Brien had better rosters to work with, right?









That's exactly my point.

He wasn't trying to build an NBA front court around a pair of college teammates that were only 0.500 in the Big Ten.

As much as I'm impressed with Olidipo, I'm not about to suggest that any NBA should try to build around a Hulls-Olidipo backcourt. (Well, maybe the Pistons should. :devil: ) But they're at least winning their Big Ten games.

Sollozzo
02-25-2013, 11:33 AM
David West is 500x the complete player that Dale Bruiser Davis was not. Who cares how long he spent with the Hornets, we've got something special at the PF position right now. David West is better defensively than Dale was on offense, and is better on offense than Dale was on defense. If those are the two power forwards to pick from, I'm choosing David West 100 times out of 100 over Dale Davis.



That wasn't my point. Obviously us diehards can appreciate how great West has been. I think he's easily the best Pacer FA signing ever. I suppose you could make a case for Byron Scott because of the experience and intangibles he brought to the team, but from a pure skill standpoint it's definitely West.

But this discussion is about why casual fans aren't showing up, and Seth wondered why West isn't as popular as Dale. When you're talking about casual fans, you can't expect a guy who has been here for just two seasons to be as popular as a guy who was here for nine and a half and was an integral part on five teams that went to the ECF's, including an NBA Finals appearance. Davis also made an all star team. I bet that some casual fans who only pay attention to the NBA a bit here and there might not have even known who West was before we signed him.

ChicagoJ
02-25-2013, 12:31 PM
Admittedly, I'm taking this thread down the wrong tangent, but it is sorta-related...



How did those casual fans learn about Dale Davis in the first place?

All teasing of Peck aside, I know I would certainly tell anyone that would listen that as long as it didn't involve Dale Davis getting fouled and going to the FT line in the fourth quarter, that he was one of the absolute best clutch defenders and rebounders I've ever seen. Now I yelled "GET RID OF IT!" at many of those rebounds... He was every bit as clutch defensively, and with rebounding, as Reggie was with the jump shot.

And we, as the hardcore fans, talked him up.

Why does this hardcore fan base spend so much time nitpicking its team's best players instead of hype them up? (And why does it, much to the :rolleyes: of the casual fan base, spend so much time hyping up complimentary role players?)

To read this place, we should dump Cindy Crawford because she's got a mole on her face and spend more time with Roseanne because she's got great potential at making us laugh.

(Okay, I've been married for too long. Somebody can insert some more timely references in here for me.)

We wonder why there's no water cooler talk - or misinformed water cooler talk - about this team... well, its our job to fix it.

Kid Minneapolis
02-25-2013, 12:55 PM
Yea, Dale was a good guy, good player, but I think his reputation gets overblown in PacerLand by the mere fact of the team around him. I love DD... I'm not going to sit here and pretend he was one of the greatest PFs of all time. He screened well, he rebounded well, he was tough. His offensive game was on par with Reggie Evans. The team he was on was very likable, and he was the glue, tough guy that had everyone's back.

Sollozzo
02-25-2013, 01:02 PM
Admittedly, I'm taking this thread down the wrong tangent, but it is sorta-related...



How did those casual fans learn about Dale Davis in the first place?

All teasing of Peck aside, I know I would certainly tell anyone that would listen that as long as it didn't involve Dale Davis getting fouled and going to the FT line in the fourth quarter, that he was one of the absolute best clutch defenders and rebounders I've ever seen. Now I yelled "GET RID OF IT!" at many of those rebounds... He was every bit as clutch defensively, and with rebounding, as Reggie was with the jump shot.

And we, as the hardcore fans, talked him up.

Why does this hardcore fan base spend so much time nitpicking its team's best players instead of hype them up? (And why does it, much to the :rolleyes: of the casual fan base, spend so much time hyping up complimentary role players?)

To read this place, we should dump Cindy Crawford because she's got a mole on her face and spend more time with Roseanne because she's got great potential at making us laugh.

(Okay, I've been married for too long. Somebody can insert some more timely references in here for me.)

We wonder why there's no water cooler talk - or misinformed water cooler talk - about this team... well, its our job to fix it.


I think that the unprecedented (for NBA Pacer fans) special 1994 and 1995 playoff runs immediately won over the hearts of the community. The goodwill for the core of those teams lasted all the way through 2000 when we made the Finals. Reggie was the star, and guys like Smits, the Davis brothers, and Jackson were his reliable sidekicks who were leading the team on deep runs every year. Weren't Smits and Dale the only two guys besides Reggie who were there for every deep playoff run? Jackson wasn't on the 1994 team and Antonio wasn't on the 2000 team. Fans knew Dale as that mean nasty enforcer who was always doing the dirty work for the teams on deep runs. All those years of goodwill made him a special player.

I think that there is growing water cooler talk around the community. I was at the Knicks and Pistons games and they both had good crowds. The crowd for the Pistons game was particularly encouraging. The place was mostly full. The sportsline boxscore says that it was a crowd of 17,750. I don't know if that many people showed up, but it couldn't have been too much less. It wasn't too long ago that a Friday night game against an awful team like Detroit would have drawn a pitiful crowd. I went to multiple Friday night games in the miserable 2006-2010 stretch that drew awful attendance. So a good crowd for a bad Pistons team was very encouraging.

What we need more than anything is an exciting playoff series win. I'm not saying that we have to beat Miami, but we need something more exciting than a first round victory against an Orlando team without Dwight Howard. In 1994 we beat the young hyped Magic and the number 1 seeded Hawks. In 1995 we beat the Hawks again and then beat the evil Knicks in an extremely memorable 7 game series. Exciting stuff like that is what really brings people out. This current roster looks like they have the regular season covered, but what they need is that exciting playoff series win. Can you imagine if we won our first round series and then beat the Knicks in the Eastern semis? The Fieldhouse would be rocking and I have no doubt that the community would be buzzing with Pacer pride.

naptownmenace
02-25-2013, 01:31 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the media needed a non basketball angle to get talking about the Pacers and they finally have one - the fans that said they weren't going to follow the Pacers until they cleaned up their act but still haven't come back several years after they have. When a person like Colin Cowherd throws the word racism into the mix people take notice.

For as crazy as all this talk is, it's really helping the Pacers franchise get some recognition. I was listening to CBS Sports radio over the weekend and they were talking about how good the Pacers are and how much they enjoy watching Paul George play. Everything is trending in the right direction.

Some people need to be told that something is good before they will even bother looking into it for themselves. People are sheep. If you tell them vampire vs. werewolf loves stories are the hottest thing ever and that there's something wrong with you for not liking them... well a lot of people are going to at least google said stories and maybe read some reviews. Some will just jump on the bandwagon because someone whose opinion they trust tells them they should.

I didn't think it was a good idea to call out the casual sports fans but now I see that it was the spark that was needed to get the attention of those people who used to like the Pacers but stopped following them for whatever the reason. You don't need to send any sort of rebuttal to Colin Cowherd. Let him keep talking. It's getting the Pacers more attention than beating the Heat, Knicks, and Bulls 2 times each has.

SMosley21
02-25-2013, 05:28 PM
This topic just will not die. :deadhorse

Coopdog23
02-25-2013, 06:54 PM
He's not from here. He will never get what sports are in Indy. We love the Pacers, but high school and college basketball are huge too. He believes we don't care about the Colts that much. 82 consecutive sell outs there. He only knows what northeastern sports are because he is in that area.