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flakcatcher
02-22-2013, 08:02 AM
Hi guys. I recently posted a link to a piece a wrote that was framed as a love letter from Pacers to Indy. It was surprisingly popular; it became by far the most read thing that's ever appeared in the near 2-year history of the Indy-based website, Punchnel's, where it was published.

Now, another writer has submitted a "response article,"saying to the Pacers, "Maybe we're just not into you." The writer makes some interesting arguments, and I'm curious what you guys think about them.

Here's his story:

http://www.punchnels.com/first-person/pacers-not-so-fast-romeo/


Dear Pacers,

I know you want me back and you make a good case that you have done your job. I commend you for it. Smart draft picks like Danny, Roy, and Paul have worked out well. I am pleasantly surprised by the success of David West and George Hill in the post-South Beach era of free agent migration to big markets. You have rebuilt better and faster than I would have thought possible.

I really like Frank Vogel. Is it true that he is Brad Stevens’ older brother?

For the record, I don’t care about the Brawl. I am over Jamaal Tinsley. Kravitz is right: I am not racist. I understand that the NBA has the best talent, but it is not always the best showcase for it. I am a Big Ten fan and is it true that I prefer the atmosphere and intensity of a good game at Hinkle. We’ve tried to kill the high school basketball tournament but I still like to go to a good prep matchup. It’s a tough combination for you to be in a small market but not the only game in town. My guess is that the people in Portland don’t have the same kind of basketball entertainment options that we do.

But I get a little tired of anybody telling me what my responsibility as fan is, and what teams “deserve” from me. This seems to be unique to sports. When Sylvester Stallone makes a ****** movie (link to any of a dozen movies), Sly doesn’t tell people he “deserves” the support of his fans. Sports are entertainment, and the product needs to provide entertainment value. It’s not a relationship, it’s an entertainment choice.

You sold out long ago to the corporate suites and deep-pocket season ticket holders. You decided on a business model that relied on ticket sales to the upper class and TV contracts for the middle class. So let’s not be too quick to blame the fan base when they are a little hesitant to take the family to a game.

I looked for tickets for Friday night’s game against Detroit. Seats below the concourse are $90 minimum. Yes, I know you say that I could probably find a cheaper ticket from a scalper, but that’s not really helping you out. And I could sit up above…

But you do realize what the game looks like on an HD TV in my basement, right? Are you really making the case that the cheap seats are a smart play? For the cost of taking a family of four to the game, I can buy a new Samsung, and I get to watch Brooke Olzendam.

Plus, I don’t think it’s fair for you to measure my feelings for you based on attendance. You are averaging 80 percent of the seats filled. What kind of business model are you running where 80 percent of capacity not only isn’t good enough, it brings national scrutiny?

If you sold 3,000 more tickets for 41 home games at $50 a ticket, that nets you around $6 million, maybe a little more after you sell $9 beers. That’s chump change.

Can’t we say we love you by building you a new fieldhouse and giving you money to operate it? We just voted to give you an additional $10 million of taxpayer money to go with the original $33.5 million. You seem a little needy. Please don’t trade in your strip club handgun for a metaphoric one that says we need to support you, or else.

If attendance were so important, why wouldn’t the NHL be doing better? Have you compared their attendance figures to the NBA? In many cities where they compete, usually in the same arenas, the NHL teams beat the NBA teams.

The answer is that television contracts and television ratings are what drive your success. So let’s not get carried away fretting about whether 13,000 or 16,000 show up on Tuesday night to watch you play the Warriors. Don’t be so insecure. Let’s look forward to revenue sharing.

And by the way, do you know the last time you gave us a single digit draft pick? Probably not. We were much younger then. It was 1989 and George McCloud. I know it’s not your fault. In fact, it’s because you haven’t tanked that we have been stuck in mediocrity. I guess we used all our civic good fortune with the Colts, but it would be nice to get a Kevin Durant every once in a while.

Finally–and this is hard for me to say, because I really do like you–but you have a certain Washington Generals feel. I’m not talking about the Hansbrough brothers. I mean that there’s a big dead end ahead. Oh, I know you were up 2-1 on the Heat last spring, and you have beaten them twice in the regular season. But you are Lebron’s *****. I don’t know if he is better than Michael Jordan, but I know we won’t be going to the finals until he retires or takes his talents to the White Sox. You say this is pessimistic? At the All Star break, Vegas oddsmakers had the Pacers at 25-1 to win the championship. You have the eighth-best record in the league. In any other sport with this resume, you’d have better odds. But Vegas knows how the NBA works.

So I can emotionally and financially invest in you now and be rewarded in May by watching Joey Crawford treat Dywane Wade like he’s porcelain. Let’s be frank: you are regular-season programming and playoff fodder.

I’m sorry if that hurts. Yes, we have a chance. Yes, you’ve changed. Yes, it turns me on when you embarass the Knicks. Yes, I promise to go to a game. Yes, I like you. But let’s just be friends.

DJVendetta
02-22-2013, 08:17 AM
I'm not even a little bit upset at this guys response. Again everyone has their reasons for attending/not attending a Pacers game. I mean I live in south Florida and I'd kill to be able to make it up to a game at BLF. I also attend all the games they play in Miami every year, but I wasn't going to this year since the tickets are butt **** expensive until my girl surprised me with tickets for christmas. I'd like to think if I moved up to Indiana that I would aim to purchase season tickets and this is solely due to not having the opportunity to experience Pacers basketball live in the town where they are loved instead of here where I am pretty much threatened by Heat fans to get my *** kicked lol.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 08:24 AM
Yeah, he is clearly over Tinsley :rolleyes:

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 08:27 AM
in the town where they are loved.

This article didn't imply any love from the town.

Let's just hope that they are a minority :(

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 08:29 AM
I am not entirely sure what he means by "below the concourse" I assume he means the lower level His claim that the lowest price seat is $90.00 is true only if you pay the ticketmaster service fees. He could have bought those a week ago or so without the service fees, if he really wanted and the tickets would have been 78

This paragraph is such Bull-****.
And by the way, do you know the last time you gave us a single digit draft pick? Probably not. We were much younger then. It was 1989 and George McCloud. I know it’s not your fault. In fact, it’s because you haven’t tanked that we have been stuck in mediocrity. I guess we used all our civic good fortune with the Colts, but it would be nice to get a Kevin Durant every once in a while.

pacerfaninga
02-22-2013, 08:36 AM
I am not entirely sure what he means by "below the concourse" I assume he means the lower level His claim that the lowest price seat is $90.00 is simply not true.


This paragraph is such Bull-****.
And by the way, do you know the last time you gave us a single digit draft pick? Probably not. We were much younger then. It was 1989 and George McCloud. I know it’s not your fault. In fact, it’s because you haven’t tanked that we have been stuck in mediocrity. I guess we used all our civic good fortune with the Colts, but it would be nice to get a Kevin Durant every once in a while.





Maybe he should just become an OKC fan? Not sure the Pacers need/want fans like him anyway. This team is special, period, end of story. If some people do not realize that by now then they never will. Having come up from GA the last few seasons I can say that the fans that do attend the games are by far the most passionate and fun to be around of any pro sporting event I have attended. The last thing I want is to have to cheer for the Sacramento Pacers so I am hoping people open their eyes and realize what they have before it is gone.

Jukeb0xHero
02-22-2013, 08:37 AM
And by the way, do you know the last time you gave us a single digit draft pick? Probably not. We were much younger then. It was 1989 and George McCloud. I know it’s not your fault. In fact, it’s because you haven’t tanked that we have been stuck in mediocrity. I guess we used all our civic good fortune with the Colts, but it would be nice to get a Kevin Durant every once in a while.

Lost me there - the Pacers have largely been competitive throughout this entire era and the fact that the Brawl and fall out the season after still never dropped us beyond like 10th in the conference is commendable, not condemnable.

Otherwise, makes a fair enough argument.

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 08:38 AM
Maybe he should just become an OKC fan? Not sure the Pacers need/want fans like him anyway. This is team is specail, period, end of story. The last thing I want is to have to cheer for the Sacramento Pacers!

Correction - the $90.00 claim is true if you pay the ticketmaster service charge

Slick Pinkham
02-22-2013, 08:39 AM
Do searches at stub hub and circle city for tickets for 3 random upcoming home games and post for him the cost of two tickets together in the lower level.

Do the same for the next IU home game, the next Chicago Bulls home game, and just for giggles a really bad team like Cleveland.

He has his mind made up, but at least you can correct his misconceptions with facts.

idioteque
02-22-2013, 08:48 AM
That guy's post is straight derpin'. Gets on his high horse about the purity of high school basketball and Butler and proceeds to call the Pacers Lebron's *****. I bet he was in BLF recently...in a Heat jersey. Guy probably became a HUGE LIFE LONG COLTS FAN...in 2004.

The contradictions and misinformation here just irk me.

will567
02-22-2013, 08:52 AM
This captures exactly how I feel about the Pacers and the NBA. I just do not love this group like I have others. I like them but I do not love them.

graphic-er
02-22-2013, 08:54 AM
Just a couple thoughts, this guy basically affirms the stereotype that Indianapolis people are homebodies. They would rather stay at home and be a couch potato than actually go out and see any form of live entertainment unless its free, or lots of alcohol is involved. Its the same reason why the Indianapolis Sympony had so much trouble this year raising money to even exist. People would rather stay at home than actually sponge up any sort of real culture.

I can't stand his last set of paragraphs where he basically calls the team irrelevant.

idioteque
02-22-2013, 08:56 AM
I can't stand his last set of paragraphs where he basically calls the team irrelevant.

This guy just hates the Pacers. I bet he attended a Colts game this year. Did anyone here realistically think the Colts had a chance to win the Super Bowl this year?

graphic-er
02-22-2013, 09:00 AM
This captures exactly how I feel about the Pacers and the NBA. I just do not love this group like I have others. I like them but I do not love them.

Well nobody on here is gonna change your mind. But just keep your ears open so you can jump on the bandwagon when the media tells you to.

HC
02-22-2013, 09:03 AM
I don't really have a problem with anything he said. He is just as entitled to feel the way he does as we are to feel otherwise. He makes some good points, it is quite expensive to take a family to any NBA game. I understand that if you explore the options there are great deals for Pacers tickets to be had, but this isn't always the case. When you live a little over an hour away like I do, bringing the kids to a game during the week is just not going to happen. That is when things get a little tough for me, because weekend ticket prices are a bit over the top for me if I plan on bringing the family. And personally I'm not too impressed with the family night promotion. The food is blah, and they don't have a t shirt that would fit any man over 5'7" or any child less than 4'.

King Tuts Tomb
02-22-2013, 09:04 AM
With fans like this guy who needs enemies.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 09:05 AM
His point about not having a single digit draft pick since 1989 as a BAD thing is completely moronic.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 09:06 AM
This captures exactly how I feel about the Pacers and the NBA. I just do not love this group like I have others. I like them but I do not love them.

You feel that the Pacers are LeBron's *****es and that we would trade our "strip club handgun" for a metaphoric one?

idioteque
02-22-2013, 09:06 AM
With fans like this guy who needs enemies.

No kidding.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 09:07 AM
Correction - the $90.00 claim is true if you pay the ticketmaster service charge

Yeah but if you go to stub hub you can usually swing lower level for 40-50. And guess what that does help the arena feel more full and then BOOOM better atmosphere.

idioteque
02-22-2013, 09:08 AM
His point about not having a single digit draft pick since 1989 as a BAD thing is completely moronic.

For several reasons, including the fact that our most recent top ten pick is a freaking 22 year old All-Star. But he was picked 10 instead of 9 so that doesn't count.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 09:09 AM
Honestly, I don't think enough people are fully appreciating what Paul is doing this season at 22 years old. If he keeps up his averages, he will join a group that up until this season has only been 3 people, but if he and Lebron can continue their trajectories, they will become the 4th and 5th guys to post this kind of season statistically.

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 09:13 AM
Honestly, I don't think enough people are fully appreciating what Paul is doing this season at 22 years old. If he keeps up his averages, he will join a group that up until this season has only been 3 people, but if he and Lebron can continue their trajectories, they will become the 4th and 5th guys to post this kind of season statistically.


It gives you chills when you think how good he already is at 22. He literally has the tools to do basically anything on the basketball court.

Sandman21
02-22-2013, 09:17 AM
$55 gets you a ticket in the Fan Zone at club level tonight ( or as this guy puts it, at concourse level) at Stub Hub. ****, $36 gets him his precious below concourse level seats for the Warriors next week, $16 gets him into the Fan Zone!

This is one of those chumps who wants court side seats, food and limo service for $100.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 09:21 AM
Also, I hope this guy never wants to go to a Colts game. Becuase even with aftermarket you're talking pretty much 80 a seat minimum just to get in the damn building.

PacerPenguins
02-22-2013, 09:23 AM
We all know people will be in the seats come playoff time, so why can't they go to regular season games? I dont get it

Kemo
02-22-2013, 09:25 AM
EFFF that guy and his opinion....
After reading that garbage, I just wanna throat punch him for being an uninformed butthole...

Cactus Jax
02-22-2013, 09:29 AM
Different stadium and team and all, but I know I got Pacers vs Suns tickets for about $75 bucks each w/ fees, and my seats are over pretty close towards Pacers bench. I guess if I wanted to follow the team every game at stadium it would be a bit much though. Number 1 thing I would say though is to not wait until the last second unless you want to deal w/ scalpers. Buy a month in advance for a team not named Heat, Lakers, Bulls, Knicks, Celtics and I'd figure you could get a decent deal for it.

RWB
02-22-2013, 09:39 AM
EFFF that guy and his opinion....
After reading that garbage, I just wanna throat punch him for being an uninformed butthole...

Sounds like an anger managment issue. :D Had to throw that out there today as I had a guy flip me off this morning coming into work because I was driving the speed limit. :)

*astrisk*
02-22-2013, 09:42 AM
The year was 1999, his name is Jonathan Bender, 5th overall pick by Toronto and traded immediately to Pacers.

We may have never earned a Top 5 pick, but I am glad we haven't. This Franchise has ALWAYS tried, almost to a fault. They have also owned their mistakes and TRIED to make up for them.

Paul George is currently the best player to come out of the 2010 Draft, and Lance Stephenson is by far the STEAL of the draft, and you could make an arguement he is already a Top 10 Player from that draft.

joew8302
02-22-2013, 09:52 AM
What is the crime with sitting in the balcony?

Yes it is high up, but the views are still excellent, you an see offensive sets develop better, and you watch the game in the premier arena in the NBA. The arena experience/vantage point is much better than television. I still have yet to figure this out.

Cousy47
02-22-2013, 09:52 AM
Just a couple thoughts, this guy basically affirms the stereotype that Indianapolis people are homebodies. They would rather stay at home and be a couch potato than actually go out and see any form of live entertainment unless its free, or lots of alcohol is involved. Its the same reason why the Indianapolis Sympony had so much trouble this year raising money to even exist. People would rather stay at home than actually sponge up any sort of real culture.

I can't stand his last set of paragraphs where he basically calls the team irrelevant.
This is a very good observation about not only Indy but the entire sports fan community. TV has made it possible to share in the excitement of games without the bother of actually going to the game. You see plays much more vividly on a HDTV than in attendance, unless you have front row seats. The stay at home fan is the creation of the League and Sports Television and is not just a problem in Indpls. Go to a nice sports bar with your friends, have some adult beverages and watch the games on large screen tvs.

BRushWithDeath
02-22-2013, 09:53 AM
We all know people will be in the seats come playoff time, so why can't they go to regular season games? I dont get it

Because most people think the regular season is largely irrelevant? I don't necessarily agree but it's not an uncommon thought.

Handoverfist
02-22-2013, 09:57 AM
I wonder if his feelings will change after we win the title this year? Go Pacers!

naptownmenace
02-22-2013, 09:58 AM
He made a few good points. The points that are valid are that...

1. The City has helped the Pacers out financially.

2. The Pacers shouldn't be begging people to come to the games or questioning them when they don't. Let the media handle calling out the public.

3. This:
The answer is that television contracts and television ratings are what drive your success. So let’s not get carried away fretting about whether 13,000 or 16,000 show up on Tuesday night to watch you play the Warriors. Don’t be so insecure. Let’s look forward to revenue sharing. Revenue sharing is going to be huge this year. Look at the luxury tax bills the Knicks and Lakers are going to pay. You could purchase another Big Screen billboard with the money the Pacers will probably get this year. Yeah, and the Pacers probably shouldn't be so insecure.

I think you guys have clearly pointed out what he's gotten wrong but that doesn't mean that the 3 things above don't have any merit.

naptownmenace
02-22-2013, 10:02 AM
What is the crime with sitting in the balcony?

Yes it is high up, but the views are still excellent, you an see offensive sets develop better, and you watch the game in the premier arena in the NBA. The arena experience/vantage point is much better than television. I still have yet to figure this out.

I totally agree. Also, the new big screen billboard negates the problem of not being able to see as well from the balcony.

SMosley21
02-22-2013, 10:05 AM
I've got an idea, and I know it will never happen, but how about we just drop the whole subject. The more the local media has brought up that the fans aren't showing up, it seems like locals are actually rebelling against showing up. It makes the Pacers organization look like whiny little brats.

IF THE TEAM KEEPS WINNING (talking deep playoff run), PEOPLE WILL SHOW UP TO THE GAMES.

That's how Indiana works. It's really that simple.

BPump33
02-22-2013, 10:06 AM
What is the crime with sitting in the balcony?

Yes it is high up, but the views are still excellent, you an see offensive sets develop better, and you watch the game in the premier arena in the NBA. The arena experience/vantage point is much better than television. I still have yet to figure this out.

I've stated several times already, but my seats are in the balcony and I love them. I'm only speaking for myself, but it's not just about the view. It's about being in the building. I've been to every home game since Feb. 5, 2010. Long story, but I've only missed one game since late 2008. I love being able to say I've been there for every game that Lance has suited up, when Danny hit the jumper to beat the Knicks, the time Jeff Foster tripped the nut who ran on to the floor or the time we beat the Knicks by 34 while basically having a dunk contest at the same time.

Sure I could watch those games at home, but it wouldn't carry the same weight for me. The crazy part: my tickets the last two seasons come out to an average of $8/game. Well worth it, in my opinion.

I completely understand people have reasons for not attending games and that's fine. Everyone's situation is different. I'm just ready to stop talking about attendance and start enjoying the fact that we are damn good team with a legitimate shot of winning a title. As Peck has said numerous times, attendance has gotten better this season. We are trending in the right direction already. That's all I can really ask for.

SMosley21
02-22-2013, 10:10 AM
I've stated several times already, but my seats are in the balcony and I love them. I'm only speaking for myself, but it's not just about the view. It's about being in the building. I've been to every home game since Feb. 5, 2010. Long story, but I've only missed one game since late 2008. I love being able to say I've been there for every game that Lance has suited up, when Danny hit the jumper to beat the Knicks, the time Jeff Foster tripped the nut who ran on to the floor or the time we beat the Knicks by 34 while basically having a dunk contest at the same time.

Sure I could watch those games at home, but it wouldn't carry the same weight for me. The crazy part: my tickets the last two seasons come out to an average of $8/game. Well worth it, in my opinion.

I completely understand people have reasons for not attending games and that's fine. Everyone's situation is different. I'm just ready to stop talking about attendance and start enjoying the fact that we are damn good team with a legitimate shot of winning a title. As Peck has said numerous times, attendance has gotten better this season. We are trending in the right direction already. That's all I can really ask for.

Agree with the whole post but mostly this last part. The sooner we all stop talking about "attendance issues" and just enjoy how awesome our team, the sooner attendance won't be an issue at all.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 10:12 AM
To be fair, the Pacers org really hasn't complained about people not showing up. It's been the media. The Pacers have just been running different specials and winning basketball games.

Sookie
02-22-2013, 10:13 AM
First of all, Thank God Paul George went to a small school. He'd be the number one draft pick in that class now.

Second, I think the letter is hypocritical, but I'll give him a little bit of credit when it comes to his argument with tv deals and ticket prices.

Sure, they are cheap. I don't think he realizes how cheap (for instance, it's cheaper than our women's college basketball team. And let's not even get into Knicks prices..) but when you have a television...and it's cold outside...50 dollars per person is a little pricey.

And tv deals are where the money is for NBA teams. But that's not the point. It's about the atmosphere.

People are impatient. If this team beats the Heat in the playoffs and the starters return..fans will show up. It takes time to build up fans. Even last season, we weren't an elite team. This year, I think we really are. And it'll show in the playoffs.

And finally...if Indiana's odds to win a championship are really 25-1...I'm going to have to look at that....

BPump33
02-22-2013, 10:13 AM
To be fair, the Pacers org really hasn't complained about people not showing up. It's been the media. The Pacers have just been running different specials and winning basketball games.

And that's all I want from them. I agree with Mosley, though. The media beating people over the head with this seems to be doing more harm than help. Just keep winning.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 10:13 AM
Dude is nothing but a smartass that is masquerading as "liking" the Pacers when its quite clear he not only doesnt but is quite bitter as well...The article should be removed....hes not worthy of the attention.

Since86
02-22-2013, 10:15 AM
To be fair, the Pacers org really hasn't complained about people not showing up. It's been the media. The Pacers have just been running different specials and winning basketball games.


As they should. I think taking out an full page ad in the Star, or some kind of campaign somewhere, saying they don't think they "deserve" your money, but are working hard towards putting a product worth your money would do some good.

I don't think guilting people into attending games is really going to do the trick. I would imagine it actually creates some animosity.

Since86
02-22-2013, 10:16 AM
Dude is nothing but a smartass that is masquerading as "liking" the Pacers when its quite clear he not only doesnt but is quite bitter as well...The article should be removed....hes not worthy of the attention.

Might be true, but he's a lot closer to the average person than we are or there wouldn't be a need to have these discussions. PS&E/NBA need to figure out a way to reach people like him, not tell him to **** off.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 10:17 AM
And I've fallen into the trap as well, but here we are again with a fan who is clearly on the fence about coming back fully and we all are calling him an idiot, etc. I'm just as guilty as the next guy, but like I said in another thread, our best way to convert people like this is to get their butt in the building and let them see Paul George do Paul George things in person. They need to see Lance get the rebound and start bursting up court like a run away freight train. And then they need to see David West just be a bad mother.....

The point is, all us die hards, should take on ourselves to be ambassadors, not dicks. Like I said I'm just as guilty because I called his argument about single digit draft picks completely moronic.

pathil275
02-22-2013, 10:17 AM
Yes, going to a game is significantly more expensive than watching it on TV. But atmosphere and emotions experienced at the game are invaluable. In the end everybody has to weight that for himself.

He has a valid point though that ticket sales only account for a fraction of a franchise's revenue. In the end these 3,000 empty seats won't decide whether professional basketball in Indy has a future or not. What he might forget is that he won't have a Durant et al. around long-term if those star players have to play in an empty arena.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 10:18 AM
You know, I don't actually care about the attendance. It is going up and as we keep winning it will keep going up.

My problem is the mentality of the person who wrote that article.

Hicks
02-22-2013, 10:19 AM
*Warning: I'm going to ramble on as I re-read the guy's article and respond bit by bit with the thoughts that come to me at the time*

I think it's fair for people to just not be that into the team. Regardless of the reason, that's perfectly valid in and of itself to simply not care about the team (much).

The first question I have is, "Was he ever really here?" He says, "I know you want me back," but it's hard to tell when he left in the first place (and if he was ever here at all).

I'm not sure what he means by the NBA having the best talent yet 'not always the best showcase for it.'

I think it's completely legit to prefer the atmosphere of a game at IU to a game at Bankers Life Fieldhouse. There's a lot I don't like about the experience of an NBA game with regards to the environment (too much noise, too often, usually a little too loud, all of the stuff that placates kiddies and families that I don't care about, it's almost a non-stop barrage of noise pollution).

Ditto for a good high school crowd (I'm spoiled because I grew up here in New Castle, in that regard).

I think there's some truth to the Pacers not being the only game in town. If the Colts didn't exist I think you would see more people giving us a look.

I get where he's coming from as well with regards to when fans try to tell non fans what they should do. I am a big fan James Cameron movies (particularly his first handful), but I don't go around insisting 'outsiders' go watch James Cameron movies, for example. Granted, his flicks don't have nearly the same financial problems as the Pacers. :D But regardless, these folks are NOT OBLIGATED to care about the Pacers. My only beef with outsiders is when they say a bunch of ******** that isn't true (like the team being comprised of thugs and that kind of crap).

He then goes on to talk about selling out to corporations and the increased cost of tickets. It's hard for me to comment because I wasn't buying tickets prior to Conseco Fieldhouse (if I went to a game, someone was taking me back then). But I can say that as someone who has limited income, it's a big deal to invest in a lower level seat. I'm spoiled because I have friends who will invite me to sit with them in those locations, but if I didn't have that I would always be either in the balcony or at home with my budget. The closest I could ever imagine sitting on my own dime would be the fan zones in sections 19, 20, 1, & 2, but doing so would be a BIG bite for me.

This brings me to Stubhub. People love to bring up stubhub. Personally, I've never used it. For whatever reason it never seemed attractive to me. I'm also not sure that everybody is aware of its existence. A lot are, but I'd guess a lot more than that are not. If they do use it, does that really make the Pacers any happier? I don't see why it would beyond the appearance of a bigger crowed because those tickets are all being RESOLD, are they not? So it's not making them any more money in that regard (though, yes, anyone who comes and then buys food or merchandise still adds something). Don't get me wrong, stubhub sounds like a fair counter point to make to those who complain about prices, but it's not perfect, and it does nothing to change the fact that a lot of people are going to simply go directly through the team to buy tickets, and yes those prices are relatively not cheap unless you're fine with sitting somewhere in the balcony.

This brings me to his point about HDTV. Sorry, but I totally get this part, too. I've been a huge fan since 1998, but I've always been perfectly happy watching the games on TV. I go to games because I have friends there, I like that I'm supporting the team, and I like feeling like 'a member of the club' as a STH, but at the same time I spent years and years rarely making the trip to Indy because I never had a problem watching on TV. And that was how I felt back when it was SD on a 21" TV, let alone now on a 42" in HD. Every once and a while I just don't feel like driving over (takes me about 45 minutes or so), and in those cases I'm perfectly content to just hit the living room for the game. So I get that.

And, again, depending on your level of disposable income, it's TREMENDOUS bang for your buck to just stay home and watch FSN Indiana, relative to attending games, let alone all/most of them. MUCH cheaper and still extremely satisfying.

Now, he lost me with his bit about the cost of taking his family to the game is the same he could have spent on buying a new TV. That was ridiculous IMO.

I don't claim to know all of the math, but I suspect there's truth to the point that it's the TV revenue (league wide) that matters a lot more to the league than having perfect / 95+% attendance matters. Especially the national TV deals.

Jumping to the part about tax dollars, frankly, I tend to side with the tax payer on this. I think professional sports in general (at least what little I know about how it works with the NFL and the NBA, anyway) push their luck with the public funds they ask for. I know they argue that they make the city money, but it seems like people manage to come up with numbers that prove/disprove that depending on their opinion, so I'm decidedly UNdecided on that front. But that's not my main point here, it's this: If I don't care about a given pro sports team in my town, I sure as hell don't like the idea that I'm helping to pay for it. Especially if my city's economy isn't that great. So I think there's valid reason to not be thrilled here, too.

Then he just goes into Stupidville with the bit about where our draft picks are, so enough said there. Nothing we haven't talked about ad nauseum here before.

Then we get to the frontrunner stuff. It's hard for a Pacer fan to imagine, I think, but they can acknowledge that there are plenty of fans of sports out there who get more pleasure out of rooting for winners than rooting for one particular jersey year in and year out. They get more pleasure out of seeing greatness (wherever it happens to be playing that year) and cheering it on than hitching their wagon to one horse forever. And you know what? I'm fine with that. It's not my call or my place to tell them what to appreciate or how to enjoy sports. I even think I can see the appeal myself, to be honest. I've made my bed with the Pacers, but it doesn't mean I don't have appreciation for the great players out there, too. I can easily imagine a world where I would just support greatness and leave it at that. That's not how it ended up, but it could have. At least for me.

But that's not exactly what he's arguing, is it? No, he seems to be making the argument that he's not rooting for someone else's team, he's merely refusing to root for THIS team until IT IS THE GREATNESS. Even the fact that we are damn good right now, we're not greatness, thus he's not buying. I really don't know what to say to him about that. If it's "The Pacers are the best team in the league" or bust, then I guess the bottom line is 99% of the time you won't ever care about the Pacers.

He says we're "LeBron's *****". I'd be lying if I said I had no idea what he's talking about, but that's still hyperbolic and frankly may not be a defensible position at all in a few months (call it a homer hunch, if you must, but I think I'm being objective to see a great chance to shock a lot of people). Regardless, I can see why outsiders would assume this is fact given the sports culture we live in (it's ESPN's world). Although his point about Vegas isn't easily dismissible IMO. People don't eff around where their wallets are concerned.

He ain't wrong about the refs blowing Wade and James, though. That part gets infuriating to me. It's the closest I come to throwing in the towel myself with the NBA entirely, to be honest. Garbage.

His closing bit about 'let's just be friends' is a fair place to be. Just because someone makes an awesome dessert doesn't mean it's one you prefer to eat.

Mo Tibbs
02-22-2013, 10:20 AM
That point was completely moronic though. It should get corrected.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 10:21 AM
Might be true, but he's a lot closer to the average person than we are or there wouldn't be a need to have these discussions.

The average person in Indiana is like that? :-o

Hicks
02-22-2013, 10:23 AM
I totally agree. Also, the new big screen billboard negates the problem of not being able to see as well from the balcony.

True, but it begs the question: Why pay and drive to watch the game on a big screen TV in my seat when I can do the same thing for 'free' in my living room?

I understand that BLF is a great venue, but that may not be as big of a deal to some people. I'm in the middle on it myself.

*edit*

And by the way, this brings me back to what I was talking about with others in another thread: The noise and non-basketball stuff at the games.

Frankly, each year I come to hate it more. So much so that if I didn't love the Pacers, I probably wouldn't go to games, either. I know there's a market that likes that stuff, but I think there's an equally sized market (or if not equal, then let's just say a significant one) that does not at all. I get real tired of the constant jukebox / being almost yelled at.

Hicks
02-22-2013, 10:25 AM
By the way, I want to echo something I said the other day about this whole topic:

The bottom line is that people who want to be there will find excuses to be there, and people who do not want to be there will find excuses to not be there.

And I think the Pacers should market themselves as a good product they are proud of, try to show why, and not worry about encouraging people to show up so much (ie 'Come and see us!' or whatnot). Just demonstrate the quality, and move on. Make the commercials a love letter to the team and the product versus an attempt at wooing people. I would also stop giving away tickets left and right and having super sales left and right. At this point it just makes the product look cheap, IMO. I mean if a car salesman offered me a new car at 70% discount, I would be extremely skeptical as to why he's going to such lengths to basically give the car away.

Since86
02-22-2013, 10:27 AM
The average person in Indiana is like that? :-o

If people didn't think like that, then there wouldn't be an attendance issue. The Indy metro area might be small, but it's still about a million people. BLF only holds less than 20,000 people. It takes less than 2% of the population to fill it. If that wasn't the predominate attitdue, then more would be going.

This isn't an Indiana thing. This issue impacts the vast majority of teams. The NBA said 75% of teams were losing money. The Pacers aren't in a unique situaiton.

EDIT: Math is a bit fuzzy this morning. It would really be less than 0.2% of the population.

Mac_Daddy
02-22-2013, 10:30 AM
This writer doesn't seem like much of a fan to me so much as one of the casual observers. Clearly hasn't seen the giant screen they've installed that makes even the highest nosebleeds seem like you're watching an HD television set in your living room with a much better atmosphere.

TinManJoshua
02-22-2013, 10:32 AM
And I've fallen into the trap as well, but here we are again with a fan who is clearly on the fence about coming back fully and we all are calling him an idiot, etc. I'm just as guilty as the next guy, but like I said in another thread, our best way to convert people like this is to get their butt in the building and let them see Paul George do Paul George things in person. They need to see Lance get the rebound and start bursting up court like a run away freight train. And then they need to see David West just be a bad mother.....

The point is, all us die hards, should take on ourselves to be ambassadors, not dicks. Like I said I'm just as guilty because I called his argument about single digit draft picks completely moronic.

But that was a terrible point to try to make. We had Reggie in the '90s, and if they'd pay attention we've got a legit star on the team now. We've not been "stuck in mediocrity" that long. For about 6 years we were, but we're not still there.

Hicks
02-22-2013, 10:32 AM
As they should. I think taking out an full page ad in the Star, or some kind of campaign somewhere, saying they don't think they "deserve" your money, but are working hard towards putting a product worth your money would do some good.

I don't think guilting people into attending games is really going to do the trick. I would imagine it actually creates some animosity.

I'd like to see the ads all be loveletters to the team and also a bit of pointing to the scoreboard, so to speak. Express the passion people have for the team, show off the excitement and the winning and the talent, and let the public figure it out from there.

On the pricing front, one thing that sucks for PS&E marketing is they can't throw in a line like, "And if you go to stubhub, sit in the lower level for just $40! (or whatever)" They can only show off retail prices or their own sales.

flakcatcher
02-22-2013, 10:32 AM
*Warning: I'm going to ramble on as I re-read the guy's article and respond bit by bit with the thoughts that come to me at the time*

I think it's fair for people to just not be that into the team. Regardless of the reason, that's perfectly valid in and of itself to simply not care about the team (much).

The first question I have is, "Was he ever really here?" He says, "I know you want me back," but it's hard to tell when he left in the first place (and if he was ever here at all).

I'm not sure what he means by the NBA having the best talent yet 'not always the best showcase for it.'

I think it's completely legit to prefer the atmosphere of a game at IU to a game at Bankers Life Fieldhouse. There's a lot I don't like about the experience of an NBA game with regards to the environment (too much noise, too often, usually a little too loud, all of the stuff that placates kiddies and families that I don't care about, it's almost a non-stop barrage of noise pollution).

Ditto for a good high school crowd (I'm spoiled because I grew up here in New Castle, in that regard).

I think there's some truth to the Pacers not being the only game in town. If the Colts didn't exist I think you would see more people giving us a look.

I get where he's coming from as well with regards to when fans try to tell non fans what they should do. I am a big fan James Cameron movies (particularly his first handful), but I don't go around insisting 'outsiders' go watch James Cameron movies, for example. Granted, his flicks don't have nearly the same financial problems as the Pacers. :D But regardless, these folks are NOT OBLIGATED to care about the Pacers. My only beef with outsiders is when they say a bunch of ******** that isn't true (like the team being comprised of thugs and that kind of crap).

He then goes on to talk about selling out to corporations and the increased cost of tickets. It's hard for me to comment because I wasn't buying tickets prior to Conseco Fieldhouse (if I went to a game, someone was taking me back then). But I can say that as someone who has limited income, it's a big deal to invest in a lower level seat. I'm spoiled because I have friends who will invite me to sit with them in those locations, but if I didn't have that I would always be either in the balcony or at home with my budget. The closest I could ever imagine sitting on my own dime would be the fan zones in sections 19, 20, 1, & 2, but doing so would be a BIG bite for me.

This brings me to Stubhub. People love to bring up stubhub. Personally, I've never used it. For whatever reason it never seemed attractive to me. I'm also not sure that everybody is aware of its existence. A lot are, but I'd guess a lot more than that are not. If they do use it, does that really make the Pacers any happier? I don't see why it would beyond the appearance of a bigger crowed because those tickets are all being RESOLD, are they not? So it's not making them any more money in that regard (though, yes, anyone who comes and then buys food or merchandise still adds something). Don't get me wrong, stubhub sounds like a fair counter point to make to those who complain about prices, but it's not perfect, and it does nothing to change the fact that a lot of people are going to simply go directly through the team to buy tickets, and yes those prices are relatively not cheap unless you're fine with sitting somewhere in the balcony.

This brings me to his point about HDTV. Sorry, but I totally get this part, too. I've been a huge fan since 1998, but I've always been perfectly happy watching the games on TV. I go to games because I have friends there, I like that I'm supporting the team, and I like feeling like 'a member of the club' as a STH, but at the same time I spent years and years rarely making the trip to Indy because I never had a problem watching on TV. And that was how I felt back when it was SD on a 21" TV, let alone now on a 42" in HD. Every once and a while I just don't feel like driving over (takes me about 45 minutes or so), and in those cases I'm perfectly content to just hit the living room for the game. So I get that.

And, again, depending on your level of disposable income, it's TREMENDOUS bang for your buck to just stay home and watch FSN Indiana, relative to attending games, let alone all/most of them. MUCH cheaper and still extremely satisfying.

Now, he lost me with his bit about the cost of taking his family to the game is the same he could have spent on buying a new TV. That was ridiculous IMO.

I don't claim to know all of the math, but I suspect there's truth to the point that it's the TV revenue (league wide) that matters a lot more to the league than having perfect / 95+% attendance matters. Especially the national TV deals.

Jumping to the part about tax dollars, frankly, I tend to side with the tax payer on this. I think professional sports in general (at least what little I know about how it works with the NFL and the NBA, anyway) push their luck with the public funds they ask for. I know they argue that they make the city money, but it seems like people manage to come up with numbers that prove/disprove that depending on their opinion, so I'm decidedly UNdecided on that front. But that's not my main point here, it's this: If I don't care about a given pro sports team in my town, I sure as hell don't like the idea that I'm helping to pay for it. Especially if my city's economy isn't that great. So I think there's valid reason to not be thrilled here, too.

Then he just goes into Stupidville with the bit about where our draft picks are, so enough said there. Nothing we haven't talked about ad nauseum here before.

Then we get to the frontrunner stuff. It's hard for a Pacer fan to imagine, I think, but they can acknowledge that there are plenty of fans of sports out there who get more pleasure out of rooting for winners than rooting for one particular jersey year in and year out. They get more pleasure out of seeing greatness (wherever it happens to be playing that year) and cheering it on than hitching their wagon to one horse forever. And you know what? I'm fine with that. It's not my call or my place to tell them what to appreciate or how to enjoy sports. I even think I can see the appeal myself, to be honest. I've made my bed with the Pacers, but it doesn't mean I don't have appreciation for the great players out there, too. I can easily imagine a world where I would just support greatness and leave it at that. That's not how it ended up, but it could have. At least for me.

But that's not exactly what he's arguing, is it? No, he seems to be making the argument that he's not rooting for someone else's team, he's merely refusing to root for THIS team until IT IS THE GREATNESS. Even the fact that we are damn good right now, we're not greatness, thus he's not buying. I really don't know what to say to him about that. If it's "The Pacers are the best team in the league" or bust, then I guess the bottom line is 99% of the time you won't ever care about the Pacers.

He says we're "LeBron's *****". I'd be lying if I said I had no idea what he's talking about, but that's still hyperbolic and frankly may not be a defensible position at all in a few months (call it a homer hunch, if you must, but I think I'm being objective to see a great chance to shock a lot of people). Regardless, I can see why outsiders would assume this is fact given the sports culture we live in (it's ESPN's world). Although his point about Vegas isn't easily dismissible IMO. People don't eff around where their wallets are concerned.

He ain't wrong about the refs blowing Wade and James, though. That part gets infuriating to me. It's the closest I come to throwing in the towel myself with the NBA entirely, to be honest. Garbage.

His closing bit about 'let's just be friends' is a fair place to be. Just because someone makes an awesome dessert doesn't mean it's one you prefer to eat.

This. Very thoughtful and well-written response, and I agree with just about all 2,000ish words of it.

vapacersfan
02-22-2013, 10:33 AM
True, but it begs the question: Why pay and drive to watch the game on a big screen TV in my seat when I can do the same thing for 'free' in my living room?

I understand that BLF is a great venue, but that may not be as big of a deal to some people. I'm in the middle on it myself.

*edit*

And by the way, this brings me back to what I was talking about with others in another thread: The noise and non-basketball stuff at the games.

Frankly, each year I come to hate it more. So much so that if I didn't love the Pacers, I probably wouldn't go to games, either. I know there's a market that likes that stuff, but I think there's an equally sized market (or if not equal, then let's just say a significant one) that does not at all. I get real tired of the constant jukebox / being almost yelled at.

People do at at Redskins games all the time. By suite level boxes, then sit on the chairs and watch the games inside next to the bars and resturants.

I dont get it. I would rather save the money and watch it on my bigscreen.

By I love the atmosphere of the game....maybe I am not the norm :confused:

On topic, I feel we are beating a dead horse. I appreciate hearing "others" opinions, but good lord I hate the argument about draft picks.

As others have said, win and let the chips fall where they may (for this year at least)

billbradley
02-22-2013, 10:35 AM
Not that into you? Don't worry about it Pacers, the ex always comes crawlin' back.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 10:35 AM
If people didn't think like that, then there wouldn't be an attendance issue. The Indy metro area might be small, but it's still about a million people. BLF only holds less than 20,000 people. It takes less than 2% of the population to fill it. If that wasn't the predominate attitdue, then more would be going.

This isn't an Indiana thing. This issue impacts the vast majority of teams. The NBA said 75% of teams were losing money. The Pacers aren't in a unique situaiton.

EDIT: Math is a bit fuzzy this morning. It would really be less than 0.2% of the population.

I see. If that's the attitude of the common folk in Indiana then I'm just disappointed :(

duke dynamite
02-22-2013, 10:38 AM
So I can emotionally and financially invest in you now and be rewarded in May by watching Joey Crawford treat. Letís be frank: you are regular-season programming and playoff fodder.

Sounds more like Peyton Manning and the Colts if you ask me...

Since86
02-22-2013, 10:38 AM
I see. If that's the attitude of the common folk in Indiana then I'm just disappointed :(

I'm not sure why you keep relegating this to only Indiana.

SMosley21
02-22-2013, 10:40 AM
By the way, I want to echo something I said the other day about this whole topic:

The bottom line is that people who want to be there will find excused to be there, and people who do not want to be there will find excuses to not be there.

And I think the Pacers should market themselves as a good product they are proud of, try to show why, and not worry about encouraging people to show up so much (ie 'Come and see us!' or whatnot). Just demonstrate the quality, and move on. Make the commercials a love letter to the team and the product versus an attempt at wooing people. I would also stop giving away tickets left and right and having super sales left and right. At this point it just makes the product look cheap, IMO. I mean if a car salesman offered me a new car at 70% discount, I would be extremely skeptical as to why he's going to such lengths to basically give the car away.

I agree completely. I actually practiced this in my own line of work. I manage an apartment community and up for about 2 years the manager previous to me had all sorts of specials and discounts thinking it would help occupancy. Well it not only wasn't helping occupancy, but the occupants we were getting weren't exactly the creme of the crop. With the rents as low as they were, it made our place look cheap. People don't want something cheap, they want something in their price range that they can rely on. Once I took over the property, I immediately stopped offering any specials, and I raised the monthly rents on all of our floor plans by $25/month. Within 2 months we started seeing a positive difference. Since then our sales are up significantly and have stayed up for the past 18 months, and our occupancy has never dipped below 94% but is routinely around 96-98% (it was down to 82% when I took over).

If you promote it as cheap, people assume there's a reason for that.

RLeWorm
02-22-2013, 10:42 AM
I'm not even a little bit upset at this guys response. Again everyone has their reasons for attending/not attending a Pacers game. I mean I live in south Florida and I'd kill to be able to make it up to a game at BLF. I also attend all the games they play in Miami every year, but I wasn't going to this year since the tickets are butt **** expensive until my girl surprised me with tickets for christmas. I'd like to think if I moved up to Indiana that I would aim to purchase season tickets and this is solely due to not having the opportunity to experience Pacers basketball live in the town where they are loved instead of here where I am pretty much threatened by Heat fans to get my *** kicked lol.
Same here! Live in South Florida and i wish i could go to a Pacers game. Especially if they got cheap *** tickets? I know i'm gonna be at BLF one day thats for sure

Justin Tyme
02-22-2013, 10:46 AM
Lets face it, no matter how big a fan of the Pacers some are they just aren't going to come to the games, myself included. I can sit in a 20 X 20 family room in front of a 65" TV, and go to the kitchen for whatever I want to get to eat or drink whenever I feel like it, and still cheer my Pacers on to victory. I haven't missed a game this season, yet I haven't been to a Pacers game since MSA.

I have never been to a Colts game, nor do I have any inclination to do so. I wasn't excited about when Hudnut brought the Colts into Indy during the dead of night, nor when they won the Super Bowl. I couldn't even tell you who their running back is, but I can tell you who the Bears running back b4 Gale Sayres was... never been to a Bears game either. I can tell you who both qtrbacks names were the years the Bears won the Super Bowls. I've been to 2 IU BB games, 1 Purdue BB game, and zero Butler games since moving to the Indy area decades ago. IIRC, the last time I was at Hinkle to see a BB game was 1963 to see the IN-KY Boys Allstar BB game. The last HS BB game I was at was a semi-state game to watch my alma mater play 5 or more years ago with the enticement of relatives.

After saying all that, I can say w/o a doubt I have more Pacers fandom than relatives, neighbors, and people I know. My point is not everyone has a desire to attend games of their favorite team, and it doesn't make them less of a fan of their favorite team. We are a society of convenience, and it's more convenient for the majority of local Pacers fans to stay home, save their money for other things, and watch the Pacers play on tv in the comfort of their home while sitting in the best seat in the house. Attending Pacer games just isn't a priority for the average person, and unfortunately for the Pacers that's just the way it is.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 10:48 AM
I'm not sure why you keep relegating this to only Indiana.

I'm not from the USA, my friend. I don't know how things are over there. As such, I am in no position to compare Indiana to any other state. And frankly I don't want to know about any other state.

I only want to know about Indiana. That's the state that my Pacers play in.

And as I said my problem is not with the attendance. It's with the attitude.

Does the common folk of Indiana believe that we are LeBron's bithces?

Since86
02-22-2013, 11:01 AM
Does the common folk of Indiana believe that we are LeBron's bithces?



I don't know about that. I'm saying that the average person thinks that there are better ways to spend their money than to go watch an NBA game live. Especially when money is tight for most people due to the economy.

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 11:01 AM
I see many of you are saying it is just as good to stay home and watch on my large screen HDTV. Sure it saves time and money. But something I don't believe anyone has brought up that works in favor of going to see a game in person. When I see a game in person, I get a much better feel for what is going on, who is good, who isn't, what the teams are trying to do. Sure it makes a difference where you sit in the fieldhouse but being there in person allows you to experience the technical aspects of the game at a completely more advanced level .

I have used this as examples. Seeing John Stockton on TV was one thing. But seeing him in person brought a whole different level of appreciation for him. I could see just how good he was, the angles of his passes, his overall game. On TV you cannot appreciate the size and speed of Lebron - I could make a long list of similar type stuff.

Watching a game on TV is like going to a high school freshman class, seeing a game in person is like going to a college graduate class.

Having said all that, you don't have to go to every game, you can get enough of a feel from TV that is more than justifies staying home. But I do believe you get a much fully feel for the game in person. And I am just talking about the actual basketball, not the crowd, or atmosphere. there is a reason why teams pay good many to send their scouts to attend games in person

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 11:03 AM
I see many of you are saying it is just as good to stay home and watch on my large screen HDTV. Sure it saves time and money. But something I don't believe anyone has brought up that works in favor of going to see a game in person. When I see a game in person, I get a much better feel for what is going on, who is good, who isn't, what the teams are trying to do. Sure it makes a difference where you sit in the fieldhouse.

I have used this as examples. Seeing John Stockton on TV was one thing. But seeing him in person brought a whole different level of appreciation for him. I could see just how good he is, the angles of his passes, his overall game. On TV you cannot appreciate the size and speed of Lebron - I could make a long list.

Watching a game on TV is like going to a high school freshman class, seeing a game in person is like going to a college graduate class.


Yeah, but you sit in the lower level don't you? I certainly agree with you that you pick up on things in the lower level that you wouldn't at home. The problem though is that you pick up on less things in the balcony than you do at home on your shinny HDTV.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 11:04 AM
Lets face it, no matter how big a fan of the Pacers some are they just aren't going to come to the games, myself included.

That's perfectly understandable, Justin.

I call myself an Olympiacos fan but I have only attended an Olympiacos game once in my life. And that was with my father when I was young. And it was football not basketball. And I don't even like football.

Honestly, I'm not a big sports fan. I cannot fault anyone for not going to games. That's why my problem is not with the attandance. It's with the mentality that this writer displayed.

Luckily, you don't have that mentality. Neither do I. This mentality has nothing to do with whether one goes to games or not. It has to do with some people paying attention and caring and other people not giving a damn.

Justin Tyme
02-22-2013, 11:04 AM
As they should. I think taking out an full page ad in the Star, or some kind of campaign somewhere, saying they don't think they "deserve" your money, but are working hard towards putting a product worth your money would do some good.

I don't think guilting people into attending games is really going to do the trick. I would imagine it actually creates some animosity.\


I understand what you are propsing, but how many people even get or read the Indy Star anymore? Is there a better media way than the Star to do it?

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 11:05 AM
I'm saying that the average person thinks that there are better ways to spend their money than to go watch an NBA game live. Especially when money is tight for most people due to the economy.

That's perfectly understandable. As I said, my problem is not if people go to games or not.

It's the other stuff that he said.

Brad8888
02-22-2013, 11:18 AM
The flat screen in the basement is not the only competition for the Pacers in their quest to sell tickets.

For those pointing out that cheap tickets can be purchased from StubHub and other sources outside the Pacers / Ticketmaster, that has always been the case and always will be the case.

Keep in mind, though, that those sources keep pounding on the "attendance" figures shown by the Pacers franchise, and undermines its' pricing power (ability to sell tickets at a typical NBA pricing level that is designed into the league business model).

Those cheap tickets are already being counted as having been sold to others prior to the final sale to those who actually attend the games. They also compete against the Pacers ability to sell additional tickets (both season tickets and single game tickets) for somewhere near a decent price for those who are willing to spend the money and time it takes to attend games.

It is also true that all professional sports franchises face this same competition.

However, larger markets have an inherently larger demand for a relatively finite pool of "secondary market" tickets. Given that the law of supply and demand shows that higher demand for any good / service with a set amount of supply always yields a higher price, those tickets will be more expensive than what we see in Indy. Then, the price difference between the "secondary market" tickets and the franchises selling additional tickets becomes significantly less, leaving the franchises in better position to sell additional tickets that actually count toward attendance figures. In fact, given a relatively small difference, I suggest that some people would have an aversion towards buying secondary market tickets due to not being completely sure that the tickets being presented are valid tickets instead of fakes, giving the franchises in larger markets yet another advantage.

Also, StubHub and e-mail ticket transfers from friends, family, and businesses are far more trustworthy sources for cheap / free tickets than used to be available from scalpers. Why would lots of us NOT look to those types of sources first? Also, there really is no sense of urgency to purchase tickets for regular season games because there are so many of them, and this drives the price of most average matchups down in the secondary market also. This diminishes the perceived value of any given Pacers ticket for most games, and may well contribute to people simply not bothering to purchase at all regardless of the source.

Why, in a building with good to great views of the action from virtually any seat in the house, would people care about having a consistent seat for every game? Relationships / friendships with other STH's do develop, and that is one thing that even I miss about not being a STH at this point. There also is something comforting about consistent expectations being met from having an identical viewpoint of all games. Otherwise, in virtually all cases, identical or better experiences are available for less money for those who do not commit to being in the same seat for every game that they attend, whether it be from the Pacers directly or from the secondary market.

In most businesses, customers are rewarded for loyalty and repeat business. The current NBA / Pacers business model actually discourages it, which ends up really damaging ticket sales in my opinion.

I believe that the Pacers should possibly consider something radical, which would at first alienate cheap ticket purchasers and damage the actual "butts in seats" more than it would attendance figures. I think that there should be some sort of a buyback guarantee by the franchise, wherein a STH has the option to "sell" their tickets back to the franchise (actually credit for their accounts) for a percentage of face value that increases as the level fan committment and loyalty increases. That would provide a fairly stable floor for the perceived value of the tickets, and an increased willingness of core fans / businesses to commit to purchasing season tickets. It would also lower the amount of tickets that are held by scalpers of any given game, thereby reducing the competition against the Pacers efforts to increase its attendance figures.

Pacers24Colts12
02-22-2013, 11:30 AM
I consider myself a big Pacers fan. When they were bad, we went to a lot of games mainly because we could get cheap lower level tickets. Now, good luck with that, it's about 60-90 bucks to sit behind the goal in 1 or 20 according to what I've seen on StubHub. I'm like a lot of the average fans, I have two kids, although not old enough to go yet, I am not going to pay 10-15 bucks (or cheaper) to sit in the balcony. If i'm going, I'm sitting club or lower. I'd much rather stay at home and watch it on my HD tv than pay to go sit in the balcony. TV contracts run sports, not attendance. Attendance is used as a crutch to move teams IMO. Personally, I think the Pacers are missing the boat BIG TIME on the club level seats. If balcony tickets are at most 25 bucks (not sure on that) I think they could price club at 30-40 instead of the 110 some sections are.

Another thing I consider a hinderance. The games start at 7:00, most get off work at 5:00, by the time I go home, change really quick, and leave with my wife, it's about 6:45 before we get to the game. I'd think even a 7:30 start time would help out some.

graphic-er
02-22-2013, 11:31 AM
Hey we all have big HDTVs to watch the game, so lets all just stay home and watch the game. Why have a stadium at all! Lets just transition the NBA to a giant studio with a basketball court in the middle of it. Then out fit it with crazy camera angles. I want an embedded camera in the floor under the basket so I can see Lebron dunk and land on my face! Well make the court out of a giant LED screen with a glass overlay and play commercials under the players feet. The possibilities are endless, and best of all we wont' have to worry about fans! Though we'll only have 4 teams because thats all the star power we need to sell a consistent block of commericals every week.

beast23
02-22-2013, 11:32 AM
The average person in Indiana is like that? :-o
Unfortunately, that statement is true. And, I've been in Indy for all of my 61 years. Indianapolis is a town where the typical pro sports fan is a "bandwagon" fan. Folks will follow and attend Purdue and IU games, and now Butler, as though they were religions. Back in the day (for most areas of the state), the same could be said for high school games. But the Pacers, and even the Colts, have been different.

The bottom line is that I would give anything for the Pacers to play and beat the Heat and reach the finals. That is precisely what is needed to put Indy in "put up or shut up" mode. But I would have to admit that I would be more than a little anxious about what that response might be.

But typically, Indy will jump on the bandwagon and support winners through attendance. And, that goes for both the Colts and the Pacers.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 11:33 AM
Yeah, but you can't force people to enjoy the sports experience. Even when teams are good, a lot of people go just to say they are going. It becomes a status symbol.

Winning is the best cure. Period.

BPump33
02-22-2013, 11:34 AM
Yeah, but you can't force people to enjoy the sports experience. Even when teams are good, a lot of people go just to say they are going. It becomes a status symbol.

Winning is the best cure. Period.

Exactly.

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 11:36 AM
I don't think that Indy is really that much different than most other places when it comes to being "bandwagoners". It's just that it stands out here because we are a tiny market and don't have millions and millions of extra people to pull from. I've outlined many times how the Patriots had pathetic attendance 20 years ago, and how the Celtics also were not selling out. And the Boston market is bigger than Indy by millions and millions of people. Don't let Boston fans fool you when they act like they are a utopia of diehard sports fandom. They didn't support the Patriots before Kraft turned the team into a winner, and they didn't care about the Celtics at all for the 15 years in between Bird's retirement and the Big 3. That's not intended to pick on Boston as much as it is to show that other places are also fickle, even places that are much larger than Indy. Philly and Detroit have made major attendance woes in recent years. I get that Detroit has been hurt by the economy, but it's still a huge metro area with plenty of well off people in its suburbs.

Sure the Knicks have always sold out the Garden (which isn't hard to do when you have 22 million people in your area), but does anyone believe that the demand for tickets in the 2000's was the same as the 90's? No way.

Justin Tyme
02-22-2013, 12:11 PM
Hey we all have big HDTVs to watch the game, so lets all just stay home and watch the game. Why have a stadium at all! Lets just transition the NBA to a giant studio with a basketball court in the middle of it. Then out fit it with crazy camera angles. I want an embedded camera in the floor under the basket so I can see Lebron dunk and land on my face! Well make the court out of a giant LED screen with a glass overlay and play commercials under the players feet. The possibilities are endless, and best of all we wont' have to worry about fans! Though we'll only have 4 teams because thats all the star power we need to sell a consistent block of commericals every week.


Your sarcasm is duly noted to us that would rather watch the Pacers play on tv. I'll just have to struggle along not being there in person and try to refrain myself from being envious of you being at BLF in person. BUT we can both cheer OUR Pacers on in whatever way we feel comfortable in doing so. GO PACERS!!

15th parallel
02-22-2013, 12:19 PM
I can't really say much because I'm not an Indy native, and neither an American, nor even live in America. If I did I'll try to watch as many live games as I can, like how I do here in our local basketball pro league. Each person has different reasons why they do or don't go in Pacers games, and we really can't do about it. It's just sad that many from Indy doesn't appreciate the Pacers even if they're currently winning right now. I mean, the organization have just exerted so much for them to get the fan love they used to enjoy before. They did remove the headcases. They tried to build a great team based from what they have, and are currently doing great right now. They have made the playoffs for 2 years, and is on their way to the group of title contenders. They have offered lots of promos, discounts, and other stuff just so people can enjoy a live game in BLF, one of the best stadiums out there, with cheap tickets. The owners have done everything they can to ensure the team won't move to another city, for now. What is there to look for? It's like everything is spoon-fed to those people and yet they are still apathetic towards the Pacers. It's not like it's an obligation for residents there to come and watch every home game live, but if they want to keep the team in the city, then give the Pacers support by watching them live. At least before they give they make conclusions that it's not worth watching, try to at least see a game and and observe. Why look for a Durant when you have a Paul George that can just be as exciting, but on a different way? Why do you say it's not entertaining when the Pacers has a Lance Stephenson out there, who's practically entertaining playing basketball and making fun from time to time? Why not appreciate how the Pacers are playing right now, when they are playing the Hoosiers way? Being ignorant isn't an excuse when the team is doing great for about 3 years now.

In a way, I think the NBA advertising as a whole should really help in promoting the Pacers. It's not so common to see headlines or blogs that are Pacers-related. Pacers highlight reels aren't even that many in their post-game recaps. It will really help the league as a whole if they can promote more up and coming small market teams rather than spend so much webpage spaces on articles about Lakers drama, or the Heat's "greatness."

Heisenberg
02-22-2013, 12:55 PM
See, I told you the Pacers needs to get out in front of this. The franchise has not said a single word positive or negative. But all these articles and radio discussions breed contempt among the people that don't go to games. People think the actual Pacers are *****ing and moaning and calling people frontrunners and racists and whatever else.

All of this stuff over the last couple weeks is doing a helluva lot more to hurt the growth of the fanbase than help it.

Banta
02-22-2013, 12:59 PM
I can't disagree with much of what he said. And I, too, find it annoying to be chided by media or my fellow fans about attendance. He is very on point to illustrate that attendance below sell-out level can still be considered successful. When I have a performance goal (for the Pacers, their attendance), I do not blame my customers if I fail to meet the goal. Neither should the Pacers blame fans when the organization fails to meet its goal.

In dissent to him, I say that there is something special about the current roster and I believe that they actually can advance to and win the Finals! :buddies: I am glad that they didn't make any moves. And I am thrilled with the recent emergence of OJ and Pendergraph as I think that gives the team more options and more quality fouls to give.

ilive4sports
02-22-2013, 01:02 PM
This was actually painful to read. Just seems incredibly misinformed on so many levels.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 01:02 PM
Might be true, but he's a lot closer to the average person than we are or there wouldn't be a need to have these discussions. PS&E/NBA need to figure out a way to reach people like him, not tell him to **** off.



No...being told to f.c. off is exactly what this ahole needs to be told...Who says hes closer to the average person than we are??? I say bs to that. Hes nothing but an insecure smartass begging for attention. Hence why it should be dleted...someone wants to make a post stating similar...so be it...he then can be torched....but reprinting spam from another site with this load of ****? thats bs....and the admins should know better.

ilive4sports
02-22-2013, 01:05 PM
I don't care what business you run. $6 million dollars isn't chump change. That would pay the salaries of Pendergraph, Young, Stephenson, OJ, Plumlee, and Ben Hansbrough and still have another million+ left.

TinManJoshua
02-22-2013, 01:06 PM
My tv runs my life. It's just much more convenient for me, being 12 steps from my kitchen. That way I don't have to be bothered with things like driving, parking, crowds, walking any amount that could be construed as exercise, standing in line, talking to strangers, talking to acquaintances, talking to friends, human interaction, etc... What a waste of my time all that stuff is. Just feed it into my living room please.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 01:08 PM
Lets face it, no matter how big a fan of the Pacers some are they just aren't going to come to the games, myself included. I can sit in a 20 X 20 family room in front of a 65" TV, and go to the kitchen for whatever I want to get to eat or drink whenever I feel like it, and still cheer my Pacers on to victory. I haven't missed a game this season, yet I haven't been to a Pacers game since MSA.

I have never been to a Colts game, nor do I have any inclination to do so. I wasn't excited about when Hudnut brought the Colts into Indy during the dead of night, nor when they won the Super Bowl. I couldn't even tell you who their running back is, but I can tell you who the Bears running back b4 Gale Sayres was... never been to a Bears game either. I can tell you who both qtrbacks names were the years the Bears won the Super Bowls. I've been to 2 IU BB games, 1 Purdue BB game, and zero Butler games since moving to the Indy area decades ago. IIRC, the last time I was at Hinkle to see a BB game was 1963 to see the IN-KY Boys Allstar BB game. The last HS BB game I was at was a semi-state game to watch my alma mater play 5 or more years ago with the enticement of relatives.

After saying all that, I can say w/o a doubt I have more Pacers fandom than relatives, neighbors, and people I know. My point is not everyone has a desire to attend games of their favorite team, and it doesn't make them less of a fan of their favorite team. We are a society of convenience, and it's more convenient for the majority of local Pacers fans to stay home, save their money for other things, and watch the Pacers play on tv in the comfort of their home while sitting in the best seat in the house. Attending Pacer games just isn't a priority for the average person, and unfortunately for the Pacers that's just the way it is.

Lol...save the money for other things? based on your post the only thing you evidently are saving for is a papa johns pizza....someone so lazy and convenience oriented isnt likely to spend it on "anything else" worthwhile....and anyone that thinks the best seat in the house is in front of a 65 inch tv is living in denial....and likely is on their way to being a contestant on the biggest loser.

naptownmenace
02-22-2013, 01:10 PM
Yeah, but you sit in the lower level don't you? I certainly agree with you that you pick up on things in the lower level that you wouldn't at home. The problem though is that you pick up on less things in the balcony than you do at home on your shinny HDTV.

I totally disagree with this statement. When you are at home, you don't control the view of court. You only see what the cameraman catches and if they miss something, you have to hope they show you a replay.

Usually when I go to a game I sit in the balcony. I have sat in the lower level of BLF one time. I can definitely see plays develop, see the player open in the corner or under the basket, and you can lock in on one matchup and follow it on both sides of the court whether those 2 players have the ball in their hands or not. And if you miss a great play or a questionable foul, you're more likely to get a replay at the game than at home.

I do have good eyesight though. Maybe that's the difference.

Heisenberg
02-22-2013, 01:10 PM
Lol...save the money for other things? based on your post the only thing you evidently are saving for is a papa johns pizza....someone so lazy and convenience oriented isnt likely to spend it on "anything else" worthwhile....and anyone that thinks the best seat in the house is in front of a 65 inch tv is living in denial....and likely is on their way to being a contestant on the biggest loser.quit being a dick

BPump33
02-22-2013, 01:12 PM
Lol...save the money for other things? based on your post the only thing you evidently are saving for is a papa johns pizza....someone so lazy and convenience oriented isnt likely to spend it on "anything else" worthwhile....and anyone that thinks the best seat in the house is in front of a 65 inch tv is living in denial....and likely is on their way to being a contestant on the biggest loser.

C'mon. That's not necessary.

Banta
02-22-2013, 01:18 PM
Lol...save the money for other things? based on your post the only thing you evidently are saving for is a papa johns pizza....someone so lazy and convenience oriented isnt likely to spend it on "anything else" worthwhile....and anyone that thinks the best seat in the house is in front of a 65 inch tv is living in denial....and likely is on their way to being a contestant on the biggest loser.

Don't be such a jag, brother. Those insults you made don't even make sense in the context of a reply to the post by Justin Tyme.

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 01:20 PM
See, I told you the Pacers needs to get out in front of this. The franchise has not said a single word positive or negative. But all these articles and radio discussions breed contempt among the people that don't go to games. People think the actual Pacers are *****ing and moaning and calling people frontrunners and racists and whatever else.

All of this stuff over the last couple weeks is doing a helluva lot more to hurt the growth of the fanbase than help it.

I hadn't thought of it that way. Not sure I agree with you though.

TinManJoshua
02-22-2013, 01:24 PM
Don't be such a jag, brother. Those insults you made don't even make sense in the context of a reply to the post by Justin Tyme.

That reply is more suiting to me, but that's his problem. That's how I live my life now, lets please move on.

Eleazar
02-22-2013, 01:25 PM
First only winning will cure the attendance woes. We aren't a large enough market to fill a stadium when we haven't proven to be able to win year in and year out. There are only about 3 or 4 markets in the US that has populations large enough to do that. Indy certainly isn't one of them. Make another great showing in the playoffs this year, and people will come.

Secondly I think people need to cool it on attendance. It is a psychological thing, the worst thing you can do is put out a perception that people don't care about the Pacers, as it makes the Pacers look uncool, and people won't want to go because the Pacers aren't cool. Most people never grow out of their high school mentalities until they are too old for it to matter. You want to put out a positive image, not a negative image. Focus only on the good, and ignore the bad. So stop complaining about attendance, and start telling people how great the team is. Tell them that Paul George is developing into a better player than Reggie right before our eyes, that this team is on pace to be one of the all-time great defensive teams ever, and that this is all happening without Granger.

On the topic of draft picks lets just look at who we have. At this point in time I would say we have 5 players who most likely would be top 10 draft picks in their draft if the drafts happened today; Granger, West, Hibbert, George, and Stephenson plus Hill would defiantly be a lottery pick. Add to this we do have at least on single digit draft pick on this team already, DJ Augustin was drafted 9th. Haha, ok I know I am just being a smartass now. I don't even know where West was picked as I didn't look that far back. This team may not have had the top picks in the draft, but you would be a struggle to find anyone who has drafted as well as the Pacers who didn't luck out on getting a top pick or two. We have drafted two players that would be top 10, possible top 5 picks today at pick 17. With the exception of George it actually seems like we draft better the further back we draft. :P

Hicks
02-22-2013, 01:26 PM
Lol...save the money for other things? based on your post the only thing you evidently are saving for is a papa johns pizza....someone so lazy and convenience oriented isnt likely to spend it on "anything else" worthwhile....and anyone that thinks the best seat in the house is in front of a 65 inch tv is living in denial....and likely is on their way to being a contestant on the biggest loser.

Out of line.

BPump33
02-22-2013, 01:27 PM
I agree, Eleazar. The Pacers need to be "cool" again. I think Paul George is the key to that.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 01:31 PM
Don't be such a jag, brother. Those insults you made don't even make sense in the context of a reply to the post by Justin Tyme.

Oh contrare....the reason some get up in arms is because we have struck a nerve. Theres a simple saying. Put your money where your mouth is. Many arent and are getting made to feel guilty. And i agree, they SHOULD be made to feel guilty. The ones that cant afford it, so be it....but theyre not the ones that are saying anything. Theyre to shy and likely embarassed. And those are the ones i feel for. But these aholes that give a long line of excuses for why they wont spend their money on the pacers because of hdtv and the like...well screw them. Theyre the dicks. And its why they are so up in arms. Theyve been called out. And it dont feel so good now does it. So let the fire continue to burn. Anyone that thinks someone that sits and watches a game at home and hasnt been to a game since MSA is the same sort of fan as someone whos been to a thousand games is also in denial. Hes not a fan. Hes a casual observer. A fan actually does something to SUPPORT his team that his team can actually feel. He makes a difference. Home court advantage, etc. So yea...i do take it personal...Put ur money where ur mouth is. or STFU.

Hicks
02-22-2013, 01:37 PM
Oh contrare....the reason some get up in arms is because we have struck a nerve.

No, you were just being needlessly rude. That struck a nerve. If you can't make your point without being blatantly insulting, best not to post here.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 01:40 PM
Ok, I read another article of that David Anderson guy who wrote the article that the OP posted. The article was about the Nerlens Noel injury. He completely buries NBA and NFL for the age limit.

It's pretty clear that he doesn't like the NBA. At all.

iogyhufi
02-22-2013, 01:40 PM
That reply is more suiting to me, but that's his problem. That's how I live my life now, lets please move on.

:citizenkane:

Pacers
02-22-2013, 01:46 PM
Lol...save the money for other things? based on your post the only thing you evidently are saving for is a papa johns pizza....someone so lazy and convenience oriented isnt likely to spend it on "anything else" worthwhile....and anyone that thinks the best seat in the house is in front of a 65 inch tv is living in denial....and likely is on their way to being a contestant on the biggest loser.

Boy, I can't imagine why people would be reluctant to go sit next to quality Pacers fans such as yourself. If interaction with people like you and TinMan are what I'm missing by not going to games, I'll count myself lucky.

kielbeze
02-22-2013, 01:51 PM
Not sure if this was mentioned but 5 million dollars a year from our T.V. revenue is paid to the former owners of the formar St. louis ABA owners. So I don't believe our T.V. Deal is too lucarative anyway.

Pacers
02-22-2013, 02:02 PM
The real problems with this kind of thing are problems for all teams in all sports. Cost of tickets plus cost of everything else that goes with it. The fact that you can watch ALL of the games at home on a TV that you bought for the same price as taking your family (who doesn't really want to go anyway) to ONE game.

The problem the Pacers have, is that this town used to LOVE the Pacers. But when the brawl happened, everyone scurried away and found other things to do with their income. They realized that they don't need to go to every/handful/ONE game every year. They found that they can watch their TV, follow the team, and still get to do whatever activity they found they could do with all the free time they had not following the team for four or five years.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 02:03 PM
No, you were just being needlessly rude. That struck a nerve. If you can't make your point without being blatantly insulting, best not to post here.

Oh contrare...this whole notion that alleged fans arent supporting the team is waht is striking a nerve. People want to believe u can sit at home and watch a team play and that makes you some sort of fan. And when some are saying no...not really..it strikes a nerve. Pacers and some of us are saying, hey, the Pacers have done their part now how bout a little help. To which they say no and get all bent out of shape. Because they know deep down the Pacers and some of us have a very good point. They should be doing more than what they are. Because they can and yet choose not to and make excuses as to why not. So if you cant stand the heat, dont go in the kitchen. As for being rude and insulting, I find the initial spam posting very rude and insulting. And its very clear im not the only one. The fact that you as an admin and founder allow such when its not even coming from a poster or sportswriter etc is irresponsible in my eyes. But hey, thats me. You have gone to great lengths at times to keep the site clean. Cant help but think if able saw it he would delete it. But maybe not. As i said. If a poster makes a post, then he can take the consequences. But all this has done has fueled some lameass's ego.

Pacers
02-22-2013, 02:04 PM
When you grow up, you'll realize that there is no "real-fan" nerve there to be struck by hacks on the other side of the computer screen.

Slick Pinkham
02-22-2013, 02:05 PM
The Pacers should just respond only in a positive way, on TV and in the paper. Not begging, not whining, just excited and thankful. Something like

"There has been much media discussion about Pacers fan support and the resurgence of our young and talented team as they drive toward another playoff run. We are proud to report that our attendance this year is up XX%. We thank all of our fans and we invite all of you to come and experience Pacers basketball as we look to make this a legendary season!"

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 02:06 PM
The real problems with this kind of thing are problems for all teams in all sports. Cost of tickets plus cost of everything else that goes with it. The fact that you can watch ALL of the games at home on a TV that you bought for the same price as taking your family (who doesn't really want to go anyway) to ONE game.

The problem the Pacers have, is that this town used to LOVE the Pacers. But when the brawl happened, everyone scurried away and found other things to do with their income. They realized that they don't need to go to every/handful/ONE game every year. They found that they can watch their TV, follow the team, and still get to do whatever activity they found they could do with all the free time they had not following the team for four or five years.

Then don't go to the games. I have no problem with that.

But don't talk **** about the Pacers just because you're still bitter over Tinsley and SJax. That's exactly what the writer of that article did.

PS: I want to make it pretty clear that my reply is aimed to the writer of the article and in no way, shape or form to you.

LetsTalkPacers84
02-22-2013, 02:06 PM
Its still cheaper than taking my family to watch a 3D movue

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 02:09 PM
Boy, I can't imagine why people would be reluctant to go sit next to quality Pacers fans such as yourself. If interaction with people like you and TinMan are what I'm missing by not going to games, I'll count myself lucky.

Hey....anything u can come up with to help soothe your conscience for not supporting your team....you go right ahead and do it....we all need to find a way to sleep at night.

notque
02-22-2013, 02:10 PM
You're all crazy lucky to have the Pacers there. I'm a huge basketball fan, and a huge Pacers fan, and would have season tickets there.

But I'm in Arizona, and we have the Suns. I haven't even been to a Suns game, and have no interest in them. Perhaps it would be okay to see a decrepit JO, but the tickets here are MUCH higher than the Pacers, and the Suns are terrible.

I wish I had your problems. Go see a frickin game.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 02:10 PM
I find the initial spam posting very rude and insulting.

What spam posting?

A poster wrote an article regarding the Pacers and fan attendance in a site. Being a PD poster (even if he's not a big time regular) he let us know. He did the right thing, imo.

Then a writer in that site posted a response to his article. Again, he let us know. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

kielbeze
02-22-2013, 02:11 PM
As I am reading this thread and mulling about things that I have been seeing.
We are all discussing a topic that is pointless. Attendance has been getting better and better all year long. I am seeing more and more games where fans are in standing room only seats. constant sellouts won't happen until we prove ourselves. Larry said it last year. "We have something to prove, and I kinda like it that way." We still do. Attendance becomes less of an issue as the season and success continue. Why is an entire forum ripping eachothers throats out about it now? The bandwagon is loading up and if we continue this trend the Pacers will be the hottest ticket in town again. I don't see the Colts being overly successful next year. So the cool thing to do will be to claim you are a lifelong Pacers fan and come tot he games in a Jermaine O'neal jersey you bought last time we were cool.

RWB
02-22-2013, 02:13 PM
You're all crazy lucky to have the Pacers there. I'm a huge basketball fan, and a huge Pacers fan, and would have season tickets there.

But I'm in Arizona, and we have the Suns. I haven't even been to a Suns game, and have no interest in them. Perhaps it would be okay to see a decrepit JO, but the tickets here are MUCH higher than the Pacers, and the Suns are terrible.

I wish I had your problems. Go see a frickin game.

So do you go see the Pacers when they play there?

Derek2k3
02-22-2013, 02:15 PM
I cannot get over these idiotic arguements centered around ticket price.

I've attended 4 games this season in the lower level. Total investment made? $120. FOR 8 TICKETS. (My wife went with me).

$90 minimum? GTFOH

notque
02-22-2013, 02:15 PM
So do you go see the Pacers when they play there?

March 30th, I've been waiting all year for it. I have one opportunity to see them, I hope work doesn't make me travel during that time.

I've been waiting, all year. All frickin year. I've seen 95%+ of all Pacers games in the last 3 years on NBA LP, and haven't had a chance to catch a game yet.

EDIT: Actually, I have seen the Pacers live in the last 3 years, once in Indy when I flew back to see family, so that's partially a lie. I have caught a game, just not here.

Kstat
02-22-2013, 02:18 PM
:mjpopcorn:

RWB
02-22-2013, 02:18 PM
March 30th, I've been waiting all year for it. I have one opportunity to see them, I hope work doesn't make me travel during that time.

I've been waiting, all year. All frickin year. I've seen 95%+ of all Pacers games in the last 3 years on NBA LP, and haven't had a chance to catch a game yet.

Make sure you're decked out in Pacer gear so we can see ya on FSIN

notque
02-22-2013, 02:19 PM
Make sure you're decked out in Pacer gear so we can see ya on FSIN

Thanks man, I'm planning on buying tickets soon as I hear my work schedule at that point. I have been looking over tickets, and there are a pair center courtside row 3 I have my eye on.

SMosley21
02-22-2013, 02:20 PM
No, you were just being needlessly rude. That struck a nerve. If you can't make your point without being blatantly insulting, best not to post here.

I'm stumped as to why that person hasn't been, at the very least, suspended from the site yet. These posts are completely common place for them.

ChicagoJ
02-22-2013, 02:20 PM
As they should. I think taking out an full page ad in the Star, or some kind of campaign somewhere, saying they don't think they "deserve" your money, but are working hard towards putting a product worth your money would do some good.


Blue Collar. Gold Swagger.

Kstat
02-22-2013, 02:23 PM
I'm stumped as to why that person hasn't been, at the very least, suspended from the site yet. These posts are completely common place for them.

Do what everyone else does. Block him from existence. You'd be surprised how much it improves the forum experience.

beast23
02-22-2013, 02:23 PM
Not sure if this was mentioned but 5 million dollars a year from our T.V. revenue is paid to the former owners of the formar St. louis ABA owners. So I don't believe our T.V. Deal is too lucarative anyway.
They do not pay 5M! They pay 1/7 of the TV revenue provided to them by the league. So, they get to keep over 85% of the TV revenues. Not 100%, but certainly not chump change, either.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 02:24 PM
When you grow up, you'll realize that there is no "real-fan" nerve there to be struck by hacks on the other side of the computer screen.

Lol...ok...ill keep that in mind...thank you. Though Im fraid your previous comments obviously disprove such. But again...whatever it takes for you to sleep at nite, by all means.

ChicagoJ
02-22-2013, 02:25 PM
Yeah, but you sit in the lower level don't you? I certainly agree with you that you pick up on things in the lower level that you wouldn't at home. The problem though is that you pick up on less things in the balcony than you do at home on your shinny HDTV.

That's not true.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 02:26 PM
I think sitting high is actually best for seeing stuff unfold especially away from the ball. You can see more of the court.

Courtside is great but is more ooohs and aaahs. And to see how players interact on the bench.

Kstat
02-22-2013, 02:27 PM
I think sitting high is actually best for seeing stuff unfold especially away from the ball. You can see more of the court.

Courtside is great but is more ooohs and aaahs. And to see how players interact on the bench.

Best seat in the house for my money is always row 1 in the 200 seats. Never an obstructed view.

SMosley21
02-22-2013, 02:29 PM
I think sitting high is actually best for seeing stuff unfold especially away from the ball. You can see more of the court.

Courtside is great but is more ooohs and aaahs. And to see how players interact on the bench.

I can see both sides of that argument. I had season tickets in the balcony for 3 years and you definitely see things you can't see unless you're up top, like how a play develops and what every single player is doing. On the other hand, the last home game against Detroit we had seats in row 7 (basically eye level with the players) and it was so awesome to see Lance's intensity and his facial expressions on the defensive end of the floor. I think it's just going to be different based on each individual consumer.

SMosley21
02-22-2013, 02:31 PM
Best seat in the house for my money is always row 1 in the 200 seats. Never an obstructed view.

You also have a nice ledge to put your drinks on instead of putting them on the floor (risking them getting kicked) or in the cupholders on the back of the seats (risking someone's hair getting in your beer). Row 1 up in the balcony is a damn fine experience.

Kstat
02-22-2013, 02:33 PM
You also have a nice ledge to put your drinks on instead of putting them on the floor (risking them getting kicked) or in the cupholders on the back of the seats (risking someone's hair getting in your beer). Row 1 up in the balcony is a damn fine experience.

Had my first season tickets (paid for by myself anyway) our third championship year, center section 201 row 1. Since then I always get that seat, even if I'm paying a little extra.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 02:33 PM
What spam posting?

A poster wrote an article regarding the Pacers and fan attendance in a site. Being a PD poster (even if he's not a big time regular) he let us know. He did the right thing, imo.

Then a writer in that site posted a response to his article. Again, he let us know. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

They usually are very, very careful about posts that are obviously designed to direct traffic to another blog, forum, site, etc. Usually only legit news sites etc. Now what you have here is a response to a post/article on another site....thats again directing traffic to another site. That has typically been deemed to be spam on here. And most often times deleted. Theres no credibility or accountability. It could be the same guy for all we know and just a ruse to direct traffic. Especially considering the controversial nature. As mentioned, I would be curious to see what Able thinks, because hes usually the most sensitive about such. We have basically been discussing the alleged opinion of someone that we dont even know truly exists or can be in any way held acountable for such. Spam in more ways than one.

ChicagoJ
02-22-2013, 02:33 PM
They do not pay 5M! They pay 1/7 of the TV revenue provided to them by the league. So, they get to keep over 85% of the TV revenues. Not 100%, but certainly not chump change, either.



Yes it is. 1/7th of their TV national TV money is about $5 million on average of the current NBA national TV contract.

That never ends. The former owners of the Spirits are getting about $20 million into perpetuity just for being bought out in 1976.

That franchise, which will never play another game, is worth about $200 million today, or its pulling $50 million in value from each of the Spurs, Nuggets, Pacers, and Nets.

-- Gordon Growth math for any other valuation dorks out there: ($20 million * 1.03) / (13% - 3%) is slightly over $200 million.

I may have skipped this yet, but local television money is going to be based on Ratings. Does anybody think there are that many people sitting at home, enjoying every game, but not helping raise awareness of the Pacers? I don't. I think the local TV ratings are still pretty bad and it isn't really accurate to say that is only because they aren't on Channel 4 anymore. Too many houses have access to FSNI for that to be legit.

ChicagoJ
02-22-2013, 02:35 PM
I think sitting high is actually best for seeing stuff unfold especially away from the ball. You can see more of the court.

Courtside is great but is more ooohs and aaahs. And to see how players interact on the bench.

I like courtside once or so per year to be reminded just how big and fast the players are.

But I go to watch the game, and I'm far less interested in facial expressions and nonsense like that.

To me, seeing the entire floor is key.

But I also sit in the corner of the balcony, for the same reason.

Since86
02-22-2013, 02:38 PM
We have basically been discussing the alleged opinion of someone that we dont even know truly exists or can be in any way held acountable for such.

And that's different than an internet messsage board how exactly?

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 02:43 PM
Just a couple thoughts, this guy basically affirms the stereotype that Indianapolis people are homebodies. They would rather stay at home and be a couch potato than actually go out and see any form of live entertainment unless its free, or lots of alcohol is involved. Its the same reason why the Indianapolis Sympony had so much trouble this year raising money to even exist. People would rather stay at home than actually sponge up any sort of real culture.

I can't stand his last set of paragraphs where he basically calls the team irrelevant.
Yeah, but he ALSO claims that Hoosiers love to go to games at Mackey, Hinkle and Assembly Hall. I've seen Mackey when they weren't winning so that's total BS, and ditto with Butler till their amazing back to back runs.

And if he can show me how he can get similar seats to an IU game for cheaper than the Pacers, and with a shorter drive from anywhere in the metro Indy area or above I-70 at all, and with cheaper parking and with food cheaper, then I'll buy that whole "Pacers cost too much". Going to a IU game right now takes more gas, more time and costs more for a ticket than going to a Pacers game. But this *$(*% is pushing this "that's worth it" angle.



I can't wait till this team moves to another city away from a**-clowns like this. Maybe Luck can get hurt and have the Colts tank for a few seasons till they have to move due to low attendance (ie, see the 90's including the winning teams) as well. Then he can enjoy his IU games, his HS games and the county fair.




Plus these arguments NEVER EXPLAIN THE SELL OUTS. The Pacers have sold out for an entire season before just as the Colts finally started doing just before Lucas opened. Every single case he makes fails to explain those situations because the points he makes were applicable then too. He doesn't even explain the CURRENT SELL OUTS for the Miami games or the Reggie-TNT Knicks game. But there is an explanation that does - I'm an ignorant fan who only likes mega-stars or lives in the dream past when we all supported Reggie except for that decade where I didn't actually go watch a Reggie Miller team play even if they were headed to the ECF. That's the hard truth because it explains all the attendance patterns for both the Colts and Pacers.




I'm at the point that I'll pay MORE for my ticket if it allows us to tell this jerky that he's not allowed in BILF when the team is headed to the Finals...just John Green his a**.

This isn't even about "loyalty", it's about not having the sense to know the best bargain in all of national sports right now, apart from maybe Spring Training baseball (which is warm, cheap and fun).

Pacer Fan
02-22-2013, 02:43 PM
The Pacers should just respond only in a positive way, on TV and in the paper. Not begging, not whining, just excited and thankful. Something like

"There has been much media discussion about Pacers fan support and the resurgence of our young and talented team as they drive toward another playoff run. We are proud to report that our attendance this year is up XX%. We thank all of our fans and we invite all of you to come and experience Pacers basketball as we look to make this a legendary season!"
Yea, Try and tell Well's (Debbie Downer) that!!

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 02:45 PM
And that's different than an internet messsage board how exactly?

Lol...well typically we are at least discussing someones actual post and not hearsay.....this is hearsay in message board world i guess....and usually for such to happen that hearsay must come from a ccredible source....its one thing if you post it...we know who u are...figuratively speaking anyway...but in this case....we have someone that doesnt post here much directing traffic elsewhere saying he posted a letter and got this letter/post in response.....thats typically not the way it works...

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 02:45 PM
That's not true.


To each their own. I think that the bottom half of the balcony has a pretty good view, but once you start getting above row 20 it sucks. The view on an HD TV is superior to that of row 25 of the Fieldhouse, IMHO.

RWB
02-22-2013, 02:49 PM
I can't wait till this team moves to another city away from a**-clowns like this. Maybe Luck can get hurt and have the Colts tank for a few seasons till they have to move due to low attendance (ie, see the 90's including the winning teams) as well. Then he can enjoy his IU games, his HS games and the county fair.


I know you like to vent at times, but damn don't be putting any reverse type voodoo on Andrew Luck. I have enough love and room in my heart for both Indy teams. :D

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 02:53 PM
My secret dream is for Paul George and Andrew Luck to become best buds and start a buddy cop show.

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 02:57 PM
That's not true.

I agree. It's not as bad as an NFL game where the TV coverage is just worthless for seeing the unfolding of plays (oh look, random WR was just "left" wide open according to the TV), but I'm a guy that goes to games and then comes home to watch those same moments on DVR. What I often find is that the TV coverage missed it.

For example, at the game we saw Vogel tear off after Smith as soon as it was happening and then saw the Knicks assistant coming down for a piece of Frank. The TV team is trying to keep up with this and often loses focus of one thing while trying to chase another "story". This is very true of plays as well.



Now I actually prefer sitting low for Pacers games because of the speed and power and a sense of connection I guess. But I'll also sit up high and have done so for years. I was pretty far up for that epic game 4 vs Boston with Chuck and Reggie and there is no way, even in HD, that watching that on TV would have been remotely the same. Heck, for the Lakers Finals when I didn't have a ticket for game 4 (just 3/5) a buddy and I went and watched on TV at the Fieldhouse just to be a part of the atmosphere, and it was really popular, tons of people came down. So even when we were "watching on TV" we still did it as close to being in the game as we could. This wasn't a few nut jobs, this was tons of people at a WTHR event.




By the way, Cowherd was ripping on Indy for another reason that makes all this moot - Pacers are BOTTOM FIVE IN TV VIEWERSHIP TOO. So these people saying "I prefer to watch at home" are also lying about that. They don't care about the team AT ALL. That's why it seems weird about attendance. If they were watching on TV then they'd get the same effect we all do which is that itch, that bug, that says "man, I gotta get down there in person".

Sookie
02-22-2013, 02:59 PM
Pacers fans are no different than any other team in any other place.

You win. People will pay to see you. It takes a little time, but they'll come.

Winning brings fans. You have the diehards, that would be there regardless, but if you win, the casual fan will go to see the Pacers play.

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 03:10 PM
By the way, Cowherd was ripping on Indy for another reason that makes all this moot - Pacers are BOTTOM FIVE IN TV VIEWERSHIP TOO. So these people saying "I prefer to watch at home" are also lying about that. They don't care about the team AT ALL. That's why it seems weird about attendance. If they were watching on TV then they'd get the same effect we all do which is that itch, that bug, that says "man, I gotta get down there in person".

I question that we are bottom 5. Is he going by viewers or by rating. A 2.4 rating in NYC is 10 times more viewers than a 2.4 rating in Indy. Viewers? sure we are probably close to bottom 5. Ratings? I doubt it, but I don't have the stats to prove one way or the other

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:12 PM
I know you like to vent at times, but damn don't be putting any reverse type voodoo on Andrew Luck. I have enough love and room in my heart for both Indy teams. :D
I know. It's not fair to the real fans of both teams nor those great players. I'd never really wish them misfortune.

But it's like having a friend that's way better than their g/f or b/f and yet that person completely ignores them and treats them like garbage. You want to see them move on to someone that will appreciate them because you know they are out there.



The Pacers aren't the only "non-thug" team out there. The NBA has had a really great set of draft classes the last 6-7 years with terrific stars like Irving, Durant, Westbrook and Love (ignoring his stomp thing which no local even knows about). The face of the NBA is pretty clean cut when you see guys like Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Chris Paul, Griffin, Durant, Westbrook and Rose out in front. Apart from some of the stars being floppers on the court or whiny, few of the elites come off as "ghetto" or "thug" in any way. The NBA norm is college geek chic right now.

And as Cowherd points out the Colts have had more problems than the Pacers in total. When Mike Doss literally did the EXACT SAME THING as Jackson did at Rio (fire gun off into the air in club parking lot) NO ONE CARED. It barely made news and no one was upset with the Colts or even Mike Doss. Why? Because they wear helmets and are more numbers on jerseys than faces of some "urban" culture that scares people.

That's where the whole "we aren't racist" cries start to ring hollow. I have to wonder why Al Unser Jr can go total DUI, have multiple drunken episodes in his life, and leave his g/f on the side of the highway after a drunken fight but the city responds with "meh" or "I hope he gets the help he needs". We didn't have massive rants of outrage to the local media about how these irresponsible jerks have to be reigned in.

But if Lance Stephenson had the exact same sequence of events unfold as Little Al did? Oh brother. The chants of "see, we told you they were all gangsters and thugs" would ring out. And there is one fundamental difference between those 2 guys. It's not about some active level, it's about that gut instinct in how you react to two different people wearing or doing the exact same thing.

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 03:14 PM
Pacers fans are no different than any other team in any other place.

You win. People will pay to see you. It takes a little time, but they'll come.

Winning brings fans. You have the diehards, that would be there regardless, but if you win, the casual fan will go to see the Pacers play.

Agreed but if the casuals have the mentality that "the Pacers are just LeBron's *****es" then it's all moot and quite disappointing :(

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 03:17 PM
OKC (by a wide margin) leads local TV ratings, followed by Heat and Spurs. I don't have Pacers figures.

http://newsok.com/media-notebook-oklahoma-city-thunder-ranks-no.-1-in-nba-in-local-tv-ratings/article/3742844 (http://newsok.com/media-notebook-oklahoma-city-thunder-ranks-no.-1-in-nba-in-local-tv-ratings/article/3742844)

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 03:17 PM
Yeah, but he ALSO claims that Hoosiers love to go to games at Mackey, Hinkle and Assembly Hall. I've seen Mackey when they weren't winning so that's total BS, and ditto with Butler till their amazing back to back runs.

And if he can show me how he can get similar seats to an IU game for cheaper than the Pacers, and with a shorter drive from anywhere in the metro Indy area or above I-70 at all, and with cheaper parking and with food cheaper, then I'll buy that whole "Pacers cost too much". Going to a IU game right now takes more gas, more time and costs more for a ticket than going to a Pacers game. But this *$(*% is pushing this "that's worth it" angle.



I can't wait till this team moves to another city away from a**-clowns like this. Maybe Luck can get hurt and have the Colts tank for a few seasons till they have to move due to low attendance (ie, see the 90's including the winning teams) as well. Then he can enjoy his IU games, his HS games and the county fair.




Plus these arguments NEVER EXPLAIN THE SELL OUTS. The Pacers have sold out for an entire season before just as the Colts finally started doing just before Lucas opened. Every single case he makes fails to explain those situations because the points he makes were applicable then too. He doesn't even explain the CURRENT SELL OUTS for the Miami games or the Reggie-TNT Knicks game. But there is an explanation that does - I'm an ignorant fan who only likes mega-stars or lives in the dream past when we all supported Reggie except for that decade where I didn't actually go watch a Reggie Miller team play even if they were headed to the ECF. That's the hard truth because it explains all the attendance patterns for both the Colts and Pacers.




I'm at the point that I'll pay MORE for my ticket if it allows us to tell this jerky that he's not allowed in BILF when the team is headed to the Finals...just John Green his a**.

This isn't even about "loyalty", it's about not having the sense to know the best bargain in all of national sports right now, apart from maybe Spring Training baseball (which is warm, cheap and fun).


I agree. It's not as bad as an NFL game where the TV coverage is just worthless for seeing the unfolding of plays (oh look, random WR was just "left" wide open according to the TV), but I'm a guy that goes to games and then comes home to watch those same moments on DVR. What I often find is that the TV coverage missed it.

For example, at the game we saw Vogel tear off after Smith as soon as it was happening and then saw the Knicks assistant coming down for a piece of Frank. The TV team is trying to keep up with this and often loses focus of one thing while trying to chase another "story". This is very true of plays as well.



Now I actually prefer sitting low for Pacers games because of the speed and power and a sense of connection I guess. But I'll also sit up high and have done so for years. I was pretty far up for that epic game 4 vs Boston with Chuck and Reggie and there is no way, even in HD, that watching that on TV would have been remotely the same. Heck, for the Lakers Finals when I didn't have a ticket for game 4 (just 3/5) a buddy and I went and watched on TV at the Fieldhouse just to be a part of the atmosphere, and it was really popular, tons of people came down. So even when we were "watching on TV" we still did it as close to being in the game as we could. This wasn't a few nut jobs, this was tons of people at a WTHR event.




By the way, Cowherd was ripping on Indy for another reason that makes all this moot - Pacers are BOTTOM FIVE IN TV VIEWERSHIP TOO. So these people saying "I prefer to watch at home" are also lying about that. They don't care about the team AT ALL. That's why it seems weird about attendance. If they were watching on TV then they'd get the same effect we all do which is that itch, that bug, that says "man, I gotta get down there in person".

I wish i could thanks these posts a thousand times. Heres the real problem I have with all of this. The casual observer isnt on a pacers message board. The people really in question arent here answering to this. If youre on this message board you take this team seriously....just no two ways about it. And if youre on here as a serious follower telling me youre not going to games and buying jerseys and the like....that the only thing youre gonna do is watch the game on TV...then yea...i gotta problem with that...with one exception...if u simply cant afford it....which is a bit hard to fathom because u can damn near go for free these days...even tickets are given away on here from time to time...but if someone says i simply do not have the money to go and take my kids...then so be it....not that its too expensive....but i dont have the money because i struggle to put food on the table....then fine....but see...i dont think thats whats happening here...cause those people would usually just stay quiet...i know i would...so that leaves us with folks that are just flat out defiant....they say thyre fans and spend alot of time on the message board....yet wont spend one dollar to support the team....well guess what...an extra 6 million goes a long ways, if that is indeed the number one wants to use...we already struggle as it is being a small market team....what that means is we have to have better attendance....like an OKC...or whatever....and that would be something we could all be proud of....this isnt the thug team....if we were truly a basketball state like we like to claim-but really isnt true anymore-then even though atttendance is a problem in alot of places...IT WOULDNT BE HERE....WE HAVE THIS GREAT TEAM....REALLY LIKEABLE....WHAT A GREAT STORY...GREAT LIKEABLE TEAM....AND THE BEST ATTENDANCE IN THE LEAGUE...THATS INDIANA FOR U....WHAT A GREAT CITY AND GREAT BASKETBALL STATE....

but hell no...we suck...we got a bnch of lamers that would rather sit their fat *** on the couch and eat their Lays, drink their PBR and watch the game Al Bundy style....so yea...i gotta problem with that...i dont like being mentioned in the same breath...youre making us look bad....but hey...we get that u dont care...youve made that perfectly care...just do me a favor.....dont get so PO'd when i tell u to stfu about your excuses....and I agree with Seth...I hope they do leave indy...would serve alot of people right........

ChicagoJ
02-22-2013, 03:17 PM
Now I actually prefer sitting low for Pacers games because of the speed and power and a sense of connection I guess. But I'll also sit up high and have done so for years. I was pretty far up for that epic game 4 vs Boston with Chuck and Reggie and there is no way, even in HD, that watching that on TV would have been remotely the same. Heck, for the Lakers Finals when I didn't have a ticket for game 4 (just 3/5) a buddy and I went and watched on TV at the Fieldhouse just to be a part of the atmosphere, and it was really popular, tons of people came down. So even when we were "watching on TV" we still did it as close to being in the game as we could. This wasn't a few nut jobs, this was tons of people at a WTHR event.



Now that game in '91 was one where I was very happy to be in the 15th row. It was so loud at the bottom of that bowl. That still ranks as my #3 all-time game to be at. The only two higher for me: Game #3 and Game #5 of The Finals. I had a ticket to game #4, but that was literally the day we moved to Chicago. Literally. I drove the moving truck during the game and lost the radio broadcast near Merriville as Perkins hit the three to tie it. ESPN1000 radio in Chicago wasn't carrying the ESPNRadio feed of the game. They had a boring WhiteSox regular season game on the radio. After unpacking, I drove back down for Game #5.


By the way, Cowherd was ripping on Indy for another reason that makes all this moot - Pacers are BOTTOM FIVE IN TV VIEWERSHIP TOO. So these people saying "I prefer to watch at home" are also lying about that. They don't care about the team AT ALL. That's why it seems weird about attendance. If they were watching on TV then they'd get the same effect we all do which is that itch, that bug, that says "man, I gotta get down there in person".

That's the bigger problem than attendance. They need to start here, by heavily advertising the tv broadcasts. And WIBC should chip in with "turn down the tv sound" ads for Mark & Slick.

ChicagoJ
02-22-2013, 03:19 PM
OKC (by a wide margin) leads local TV ratings, followed by Heat and Spurs. I don't have Pacers figures.

http://newsok.com/media-notebook-oklahoma-city-thunder-ranks-no.-1-in-nba-in-local-tv-ratings/article/3742844 (http://newsok.com/media-notebook-oklahoma-city-thunder-ranks-no.-1-in-nba-in-local-tv-ratings/article/3742844)

Interesting. Spurs are usually in the top 1.

I'll bet they are looking at third place and figuring out how to fix it.

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:19 PM
I question that we are bottom 5. Is he going by viewers or by rating. A 2.4 rating in NYC is 10 times more viewers than a 2.4 rating in Indy. Viewers? sure we are probably close to bottom 5. Ratings? I doubt it, but I don't have the stats to prove one way or the other
I agree with the sentiment that we need to find out. I'm not sure what study he was citing but it would be great if someone could track it down or post it if they already know.



Sookie, the problem is that in Indiana it takes A LOT MORE WINNING to get fans on board. If Sacto, Charlotte, Memphis, Portland or Millwaukee had this team with it's current run, they'd be selling out a lot more games and would have a lot more attendance at this point.

Speaking of Portland, I love the "well they don't have other sports entertainment options"...um, no kidding, they have a MASSIVE advantage in outdoors and cultural entertainment options which is far worse. Cowherd's point was "what the hell are you doing in Indianapolis in the winter because it's not like there are entertainment options around the block." He's right. We don't have the level of cinema or arts options that a lot of other cities have, and the fans not going to Pacers games aren't going to the ISO anyway. We don't have many good, non-strip mall style restaurants, which was his whole dig that when you come to Indy everyone says "you have to go to St. Elmos" because that's the end-all, be-all of "things to do in Indy besides the track". (personally I prefer Mo's and used to prefer Dunaways, but only hardcore downtown types know about them)

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:20 PM
Why are you comparing Al Unser Jr. to Lance or any other Indianapolis athlete Seth lol. I doubt the average Hoosier would even consider Little Al a local anymore. The 500 is just a party now.

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 03:21 PM
Here is an article about the local TV ratings from last year - including playoffs.

http://www.ibj.com/local-market-tuned-in-to-pacers-playoff-game-in--huge--numbers/PARAMS/article/34539

The Indiana Pacers grabbed the attention of a big chunk of the local TV market on Sunday, drawing nearly 10 times the audience they did for their regular-season games.

After several years of struggles, the Pacers have packed Bankers Life Fieldhouse each of the last two home games in their second-round National Basketball Association playoff series with the Miami Heat, and television ratings are back to numbers not seen in years.

Sunday’s game, which aired on WRTV-TV Channel 6, drew an 18.2 rating, according to New York-based Nielsen Media Research. That means about 195,200 central Indiana households tuned in. Nielsen reported that 36.1 percent of central Indiana households watching TV from 3:30 p.m. to just after 6 p.m. were tuned into the game, which the Pacers lost, 101-93.

Those are numbers that rival viewership for Indianapolis Colts regular-season games.

For the regular season, the Pacers averaged a 2.4 rating, or about 25,730 households on Fox Sports Indiana.

As the team has improved the last two seasons, its TV ratings have been slowly building.

This year’s regular-season ratings were up 12 percent over the 2010-2011 season, which was up 35 percent over the 2009-2010 season. The Pacers are one of a small handful of NBA teams that have seen double-digit TV-ratings increases the last two seasons.

But Sunday’s audience was a giant leap.

“Those were huge numbers for an NBA game,” said WRTV spokesman Paul Montgomery.

The game helped WRTV beat its network-affiliate competitors on Sunday afternoon. During the same time slot, WISH-TV Channel 8 registered a 1.4 rating for the Byron Nelson Classic golf match and WTHR-TV Channel 13 scored a 0.1 rating in the local market for a National Hockey League playoff game, according to Nielsen.

Local market tunes in Pacers playoff in 'huge' numbers

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-22-2013, 03:21 PM
As for being rude and insulting, I find the initial spam posting very rude and insulting. And its very clear im not the only one. The fact that you as an admin and founder allow such when its not even coming from a poster or sportswriter etc is irresponsible in my eyes. But hey, thats me. You have gone to great lengths at times to keep the site clean.Oh man are you going to start talking about taking your grandkids for ice cream next?

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:22 PM
The Colts get more rope to hang themselves with because of 2 things.

1.) They won a lot more recently. Including that ever important championship.

2.) It had nothing to do with helmets. It has everything to do with a roster of 53 vs. a roster of 14

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:24 PM
i dont think thats whats happening here...cause those people would usually just stay quiet...i know i would...so that leaves us with folks that are just flat out defiant....they say thyre fans and spend alot of time on the message board
I agree. There does seem to be this underlying "you can't make me" attitude where they refuse to support the team. They cite the Reggie teams yet this team to me is just as likeable and so far less trouble (ahem GOLD CLUB...sorry Antonio and Reggie, but dang). So it's not really like they are waiting for another team like them. It's almost more like "I did my duty and went to games for a couple of years, so leave me alone".


They are missing the fundamental point which is "um, we are really just trying to give you the chance to have some FUN". Sorry to bother you, thought you might like to get outside and see the sun a little.

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 03:25 PM
We don't have many good, non-strip mall style restaurants

That's simply not true. Indy has a "Chain City USA" reputation, and it certainly has a lot of chains as does any metro with 1 million plus residents, but there are a TON of unique, locally owned mom and pop type joints. You just have to know where to look. West 38th street has an incredible selection of ethnic restaurants (Ethiopian, Peruvian, Cuban, etc). There's that great Greek Islands on S. Meridian, as well as Santorini in Fountain Square. There is a Turkish place on S. East St near Lilly that is incredible. There's a Moroccan place just north of downtown. There's Kountry Kitchen on N. College. I could go on and on and on about unique little restaurants in Indy. Downtown is certainly filled with chains, but if you get away from downtown then you can find some great unique joints. The Indy restaurant scene is always improving.

RWB
02-22-2013, 03:26 PM
And as Cowherd points out the Colts have had more problems than the Pacers in total. When Mike Doss literally did the EXACT SAME THING as Jackson did at Rio (

Actually the biggest problem was the Pacers were strapped with keeping players that get into trouble and the Colts had the advantage of cutting bait. It really is that simple. I can give you an example when Dungy was still coach. A certain player that had been drafted got cut within 3 days of camp starting. Wasn't cause he was hurt or playing bad in that short time. Nah, he was stupid enough to sneak a female into one of the camp residence halls and got caught during a bed check. Colts were nice and didn't kick him out at the time of discovery 1:10am. They had him packed up and gone by 6:30am.

I reckon if the Pacers had the same parameters as the Colts things would be completely different. Fans probably don't even realize that and give the Colts the benefit of the doubt because the knuckle heads are usually gone within a years time while the Pacer get stuck with them.

Sookie
02-22-2013, 03:27 PM
I agree with the sentiment that we need to find out. I'm not sure what study he was citing but it would be great if someone could track it down or post it if they already know.



Sookie, the problem is that in Indiana it takes A LOT MORE WINNING to get fans on board. If Sacto, Charlotte, Memphis, Portland or Millwaukee had this team with it's current run, they'd be selling out a lot more games and would have a lot more attendance at this point.

Speaking of Portland, I love the "well they don't have other sports entertainment options"...um, no kidding, they have a MASSIVE advantage in outdoors and cultural entertainment options which is far worse. Cowherd's point was "what the hell are you doing in Indianapolis in the winter because it's not like there are entertainment options around the block." He's right. We don't have the level of cinema or arts options that a lot of other cities have, and the fans not going to Pacers games aren't going to the ISO anyway. We don't have many good, non-strip mall style restaurants, which was his whole dig that when you come to Indy everyone says "you have to go to St. Elmos" because that's the end-all, be-all of "things to do in Indy besides the track". (personally I prefer Mo's and used to prefer Dunaways, but only hardcore downtown types know about them)

Yea, but those places don't have the history with the team that Indiana does.

Prove that this team isn't "Miami's *****es" in the playoffs, and the fans will come.

You could be right, and it could take more in Indiana. But this team hasn't been at a "great" level long enough for it to catch on.

If the Pacers beat Miami in the playoffs, and still have an attendance issue, then I'll agree. But this team hasn't proven..to the casual fan..that it's great yet.

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:28 PM
The Colts get more rope to hang themselves with because of 2 things.

1.) They won a lot more recently. Including that ever important championship.

2.) It had nothing to do with helmets. It has everything to do with a roster of 53 vs. a roster of 14
I disagree with #2. The helmets is a major part of it. Most casual fans couldn't spot a non-star Colt if they saw them in public. Heck, we saw them at a hotel (we were at wedding) having the before game dinner (teams stay in hotels the night before games traditionally) and I was embarrassed that I was having trouble identifying some of the various DBs at one table (we were looking in through open door and waving - geek out).

When Colts fans picture a typical player they picture the uniform, not his face.

A lot of Colts players are able to go to Pacers games and go mostly unnoticed.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:30 PM
So if the football players didn't wear helmets you would be able to identify them on the street? I doubt it. There are A LOT of them.

If you want to get down to the physical feature that makes most bball guys easy to recognize over a football players, it's not race, it's height.

And again there are FIFTY THREE of them. When they stand on the sidelines, it is a giant mob. On a basketball bench, there is no place to hide. NBA guys could start wearing helmets tomorrow and they would still be easier to recognize.

BPump33
02-22-2013, 03:32 PM
So if the football players didn't wear helmets you would be able to identify them on the street? I doubt it. There are A LOT of them.

If you want to get down to the physical feature that makes most bball guys easy to recognize over a football players, it's not race, it's height.

And again there are FIFTY THREE of them. When they stand on the sidelines, it is a giant mob. On a basketball bench, there is no place to hide. NBA guys could start wearing helmets tomorrow and they would still be easier to recognize.

You would have a much better chance, yes.

Agreed on the height, though.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:33 PM
Ok let's just slap helmets on the Pacers....sell outs....every night. I mean listen to yourselves lol.

BPump33
02-22-2013, 03:34 PM
Ok let's just slap helmets on the Pacers....sell outs....every night. I mean listen to yourselves lol.

I don't think we are arguing the same point, apparently. No one is saying that. But if you don't normally see a guy's face of course your chance of recognizing him on the street is much lower.

But yes, I think Tyler should wear a helmet.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:37 PM
I honestly don't know.

We like to act on here that the Pacers have been uber successful for so long and it's unbelievable people aren't back yet.

No, not really.

We were a .500 team that was first round fodder just two years ago. Who cares if we played hard, we were still first round fodder.

Last year, we were good, but the league hurt us with the lock out. Don't think the lock out didn't turn off fans as well.

This is really the FIRST year the Pacers are good and haven't had the NBA dicking around. Attendance is up. Season tickets are up. The signs are all positive.

Marketing, race, ticket price, black, yellow, purple, orange, white, whatever.

Just ****ing win, baby.

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:39 PM
Yea, but those places don't have the history with the team that Indiana does.

Prove that this team isn't "Miami's *****es" in the playoffs, and the fans will come.

You could be right, and it could take more in Indiana. But this team hasn't been at a "great" level long enough for it to catch on.

If the Pacers beat Miami in the playoffs, and still have an attendance issue, then I'll agree. But this team hasn't proven..to the casual fan..that it's great yet.
Sacto fans have MORE reason to hate the NBA thanks to the ref screw job vs the Lakers. Portland fans had the Jailblazers and haven't had any more WCF/Finals success than the Pacers have since 1994. Charlotte had an owner so horrible that they stopped going to games and begged for him to sell or leave town (Shinn). They are all small markets. All of them have had as much bad basketball in the last 5-6 years as Indy has. And they all would fill up games more right now. Sacto is fighting to keep their team and Portland fans are still going to games for a lesser team. Maybe Charlotte could be questioned, but having been to many games in the Hive when they had solid playoff teams I feel comfortable saying they'd pour into the arena for a Bobcats team that looked like these Pacers.

And the point you are bringing up about "if they beat Miami" is my point. In Indianapolis the fans REFUSE to follow a team that won't 99% win it all. When the Colts were great but "were just going to lose in the playoffs" then you still had blackouts. The HOF players were on the team and playing well, but if you can't guarantee a happy ending then why bother. This was true for Pacers fans and the Knicks/Bulls. That's why it took 98-2000 to start filling up the arena. The back to back 7 games ECFs prior to that DID NOT GET SEASON SELL-OUTS going. Instead the comments were "yeah, but they'll just lose to ??? because it's all rigged for stars anyway".

Chip on the shoulder, finger pointing, small town vs the world attitude with a touch of spoiled brat that refuses to try if he has to share.


So yes, if they win 70 games and sweep the Heat on the way to a title then they'll sell out. But no other city of around the Indy size would need that level of success to get to the sell-out point. That's where Indy is different than Milwaukee or Cleveland or Portland. Those cities would eat up a 50 win, could shock someone team in a heartbeat. Mutumbo's 8th seed Nuggets had plenty of Denver love before shocking the Sonics. But in Indy the reaction even after the win would be (has been) "meh, they got lucky but it won't happen again". See the reaction to Harbaugh's Colts.

BPump33
02-22-2013, 03:41 PM
We like to act on here that the Pacers have been uber successful for so long and it's unbelievable people aren't back yet.

No, not really.

Just ****ing win, baby.

No, I act like fans should be loyal all the time despite the record, but I understand I'm in the minority there.

I think we all agree that winning will bring people back.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:42 PM
No, I act like fans should be loyal all the time despite the record, but I understand I'm in the minority there.

I think we all agree that winning will bring people back.

Well unfortunately, while I wish it was this way, it is not realistic.

Pacemaker
02-22-2013, 03:43 PM
May be bringing back the Flo-Jo's will help reminiscence those good old days and help bring back that long gone "fan base".

BPump33
02-22-2013, 03:44 PM
Well unfortunately, while I wish it was this way, it is not realistic.

That's why I'm in the minority.

Sidenote: A buddy was just over my shoulder and saw the Mario Kart in your sig and got very excited. I know what he's doing this weekend.

CableKC
02-22-2013, 03:45 PM
Is it possible that this generation's Indiana basketball fans ( the LeDecision/KG/Kobe generation....which is different than the MJ/Bird/Magic/Reggie generation ) are just "Basketball Snobs" that only pay attention to the Big-Ticket Teams when it comes to NBA Professional Basketball?

The proverbial "scales" were already tipped to the next generation where they were looking for a reason to simply "bail" on the Pacers.....and the Brawl and all the garbage that happened after that is used more as an excuse to just give up on the Team.

NBA Basketball now ( for the common Basketball fan ) is as much about glitz and glamour across various Teams and Regions....compared to Basketball in previous generations that had the same but was limited more to Teams like the Celtics, Knicks and the Lakers.

I will say this.....when I watch games this years....I see a lot of fans from various ages that see that this Team is different and can be better. Unfortunately, the Pacers will never have as fervent of a fanbase as the Warriors or even the Kings. It will require a very deep Playoff run to the ECF and beyond to get the fanbase to turn out and pay attention.

But this goes back to what I was saying before.....sometimes I wonder if Indiana deserves an NBA Professional Team.

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:45 PM
I don't think we are arguing the same point, apparently. No one is saying that. But if you don't normally see a guy's face of course your chance of recognizing him on the street is much lower.

But yes, I think Tyler should wear a helmet.
And West. And based on how he played with a mask I think Roy could use a return to that style.

I'm shocked Tyler hasn't had another concussion issue and I'm praying West isn't blind by the end of the year.




Also Joe, you actually have a point that falls in line with my point. Less guys means more PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION. Fans aren't rooting for the jersey's, the mass of faceless "things" that smash into each other and could almost be replaced by robots without it changing what the game looked like. For the NBA fans are hyper-aware of who they are supporting, what they look like, what they sound like and what they wear.

The NBA and NFL have somewhat similar makeups of culture, and the NFL has TONS of violent crime or some levels of criminal behavior every year (a dude just shot his g/f to death and other got in a DUI wreck that killed a teammate). But fans are much more aware of the WHO behind even the slightest misstep in the NBA.


And like I said, look at how citizens reaction to the Al Unser Jr saga.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:48 PM
But the NBA is not because of race. It is because there are much less people. If Stephen Jackson the starting shooting guard for the Pacers shoots a gun in a club parking lot, it is going to get more attention than if special teamer occassional stop gap safety Mike Doss does it.

Since86
02-22-2013, 03:52 PM
I don't think we are arguing the same point, apparently. No one is saying that. But if you don't normally see a guy's face of course your chance of recognizing him on the street is much lower.

But yes, I think Tyler should wear a helmet.

True, but if you don't like the Pacers beacuse of their black players, do you really think those same people are going to like the Colts because they cant see their face through the helme?

Racists are dumb, but I think they're smart enough to realize that a minority is still a minority even if they're wearing a hat.

BPump33
02-22-2013, 03:58 PM
True, but if you don't like the Pacers beacuse of their black players, do you really think those same people are going to like the Colts because they cant see their face through the helme?

Racists are dumb, but I think they're smart enough to realize that a minority is still a minority even if they're wearing a hat.

I was just commenting on how noticeable they were, not their race.

People like the Colts more because they have won more recently. That's the bottom line for me.

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:58 PM
That's simply not true. Indy has a "Chain City USA" reputation, and it certainly has a lot of chains as does any metro with 1 million plus residents, but there are a TON of unique, locally owned mom and pop type joints. You just have to know where to look. West 38th street has an incredible selection of ethnic restaurants (Ethiopian, Peruvian, Cuban, etc). There's that great Greek Islands on S. Meridian, as well as Santorini in Fountain Square. There is a Turkish place on S. East St near Lilly that is incredible. There's a Moroccan place just north of downtown. There's Kountry Kitchen on N. College. I could go on and on and on about unique little restaurants in Indy. Downtown is certainly filled with chains, but if you get away from downtown then you can find some great unique joints. The Indy restaurant scene is always improving.

The rep isn't a national thing only, Cowherd was talking about what LOCALS say when you visit. The average guy in "pick a suburb" Indianapolis does NOT think about the places you mention. As a downtown resident I deal with these reactions all the time. My wife was walking over to Mesh with another downtown friend and a lady from out by Avon. The Avon lady sincerely asked "are we safe, we should have a weapon just in case". From Lockerbie to freaking Mesh on Mass Ave. You might need "cute tiny dog" repellent, but a weapon? No, this isn't Broad Ripple where people get attacked, this is downtown.

So those same people would never dream of going to Fountain Square or downtown. I could take a poll at all the major malls and ask them if they knew where Saffron Cafe was and 99% or more wouldn't even know WTF you were talking about (the Moroccan place you mentioned). It's not safe in these areas and why would I drive there when I can eat at this great new place called Chedders, or Bonefish Grill, or one of the Satan Trio (Appleby's, Red Lobster, Olive Garden).

And Kountry Kitchen? No, I assure you that the average "outside 465" citizen wouldn't even be willing to get out of the car at Kountry Kitchen. (personally I'm not a soul food person and get my Chicken/Waffles at Maxines since its good and closer).

rabid
02-22-2013, 04:00 PM
Sorry but this article REALLY pisses me off, there are too many outright lies, distortions, and willful ignorance here to ignore. Take the kids out of the room before reading this. Seriously **** this guy.


I looked for tickets for Friday night’s game against Detroit. Seats below the concourse are $90 minimum. Yes, I know you say that I could probably find a cheaper ticket from a scalper, but that’s not really helping you out. And I could sit up above…

What a load of garbage. The author is clearly looking for an excuse to present $90 as the minimum "realistic" price of a ticket, but this falls apart pretty fast under scrutiny. And there are other factors at play besides profit on each ticket anyway.

A casual fan shopping for a ticket isn't going to intentionally pay full price just to "help out" the team. Give me a ****ing break. This is a false argument anyway - even if you got into the building for FREE. Aside from the fact that fans will at least spend a little $ at the game on average (food, drinks, merch, parking), every single butt in the seat improves the quality of the product for everyone (louder/more visible/more exciting crowd), and benefits the Pacers' PR in a big way (word of mouth, press, perception of the team being popular etc). There is definitely a cumulative positive effect to the Pacers of having higher attendance aside from profits from sales. To say that more people going to games, at ANY price, is "not really helping" the Pacers is disingenuous at best, and the author must know this.

EDIT: FYI when I go to a Warriors game it's a minimum $120 to get a back-row lower-level seat. On STUBHUB. And they have great attendance even though they've made the playoffs once in like 20 years.


But you do realize what the game looks like on an HD TV in my basement, right? Are you really making the case that the cheap seats are a smart play? For the cost of taking a family of four to the game, I can buy a new Samsung, and I get to watch Brooke Olzendam.

First, this is a league-wide issue so it has no bearing on the Pacers' ranking in attendance compared to other teams. They have HDTVs in OKC and Portland I believe.

Second, saying you could buy an HDTV nice enough to top the in-game experience for the same price as taking a family of four to the game is an outright LIE. Even cowardly, as the author makes no attempt to show any numbers backing this up (taking the $90 ticket number which I already debunked, you'd be able to buy a $360 TV. Yeah I'll bet the game looks ****ing awesome in your basement with four people crowding around your 32" POS Samsung. Also I guess your $100/month cable TV bill is free and not part of your price calculation. Have fun.)

Third, Colts games are much more expensive, and the seats are much worse, yet this issue doesn't seem to affect their attendance… so yeah.

EDIT: I just looked up tickets for the Warriors game next Tuesday and $90 gets you TENTH ROW BASELINE SEATS. 10th ****ing row compared to watching in your basement on a 32 inch TV with your 3 other family members. Yeah what-****ing-ever.


Plus, I don’t think it’s fair for you to measure my feelings for you based on attendance. You are averaging 80 percent of the seats filled. What kind of business model are you running where 80 percent of capacity not only isn’t good enough, it brings national scrutiny?

Another flat-out ******** argument. NOT ALL ARENAS ARE THE SAME SIZE MORON. You build an arena that is appropriate for your sized market. Yeah let's just take the Palace in Auburn Hills at 22,076 and compare that to BLF at 18,165 (an 18% smaller capacity) as if they are equal. Yeah ok.

EDIT: No one is saying that the Pacers need to be one of the top draws in the league. Middle-of-the-road attendance is something like 17,000 right? That would be AMAZING average attendance for the Pacers, I think they only did that in 99-00, the Fieldhouse's first year, when we went to the Finals. Correct me if I'm wrong.


If you sold 3,000 more tickets for 41 home games at $50 a ticket, that nets you around $6 million, maybe a little more after you sell $9 beers. That’s chump change.

I already debunked this above. There are many many more benefits to the Pacers increasing attendance beyond the direct profit on ticket sales.


Can’t we say we love you by building you a new fieldhouse and giving you money to operate it? We just voted to give you an additional $10 million of taxpayer money to go with the original $33.5 million. You seem a little needy.

This argument applies to almost every market in the country, just like the HDTV argument. It has no bearing on our ranking in the league attendance-wise. And the Pacers deal is WAYYYYY better than the Colts one.


Please don’t trade in your strip club handgun for a metaphoric one that says we need to support you, or else.

I seriously want to punch this ****er in the face after reading this. So I guess Marvin Harrison got a pass for being an alleged murderer, but a strip club incident from seven years ago involving team members that have been LONG gone is relevant to the discussion, got it. What willful ignorance. Ugh.


And by the way, do you know the last time you gave us a single digit draft pick? Probably not. We were much younger then. It was 1989 and George McCloud. I know it’s not your fault. In fact, it’s because you haven’t tanked that we have been stuck in mediocrity. I guess we used all our civic good fortune with the Colts, but it would be nice to get a Kevin Durant every once in a while.

There are dozens if not hundreds of PD threads here about the value of high draft picks/tanking, I'm not taking that bait. FOUR of our starters are current or former All-Stars. And I guess 3rd in the East is "mediocrity," OK. Got it.

Also how many teams have a Kevin Durant? So you have to have a top 2-3 player in a league of THIRTY TEAMS to draw fans? Well, I guess that's what it took for the Colts, until they had Manning their attendance sucked too. This says WAY more about Indy fans than it does about the team.


Finally–and this is hard for me to say, because I really do like you–but you have a certain Washington Generals feel. I’m not talking about the Hansbrough brothers. I mean that there’s a big dead end ahead. Oh, I know you were up 2-1 on the Heat last spring, and you have beaten them twice in the regular season. But you are Lebron’s *****. I don’t know if he is better than Michael Jordan, but I know we won’t be going to the finals until he retires or takes his talents to the White Sox. You say this is pessimistic? At the All Star break, Vegas oddsmakers had the Pacers at 25-1 to win the championship. You have the eighth-best record in the league. In any other sport with this resume, you’d have better odds. But Vegas knows how the NBA works.

So I can emotionally and financially invest in you now and be rewarded in May by watching Joey Crawford treat Dywane Wade like he’s porcelain. Let’s be frank: you are regular-season programming and playoff fodder.

And finally the author reveals himself as the fair-weather douchebag non-fan that he is. We do better against the eventual NBA champion than ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE ENTIRE PLAYOFFS, including OKC (with the amazing Kevin Durant etc) who lost in 5 games, but that's not good enough to have better than second-to-last attendance in the league the next season, got it. We beat Lebron's team at home twice by double digits. Not good enough. We have to be better than one of the greatest players of all time. Got it ok.


I’m sorry if that hurts. Yes, we have a chance. Yes, you’ve changed. Yes, it turns me on when you embarass the Knicks. Yes, I promise to go to a game. Yes, I like you. But let’s just be friends.

Here's something that might hurt: GO **** YOURSELF. Stay the hell away from my team and my arena, we don't WANT your kind here. Seriously if this is truly representative of the casual potential "fan" then Indy has serious serious problems and quite frankly might not (as a market) deserve an NBA team. I mean wow this pisses me off even more than the comment threads on recent IndyStar attendance articles. Just flat-out lies and willful ignorance.

I need to go punch something now.

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 04:04 PM
And like I said, look at how citizens reaction to the Al Unser Jr saga.


What are you talking about? That legal trouble was in 2002, years after his Indy heyday. How were citizens supposed to react, exactly? Were we supposed to stand outside of 16th and Georgetown and boycott Unser? It's not like Al Unser Jr. had 41 special "Al Unser Jr. races" at the Speedway every year that citizens were still showing up to.

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 04:06 PM
I live outside 465 and you are correct I would not get out of my car at Kountry Kitchen - at least not again, the food was horrible.

RWB
02-22-2013, 04:07 PM
32" POS Samsung.


You did great, except for the Samsung comment. :D

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 04:07 PM
True, but if you don't like the Pacers beacuse of their black players, do you really think those same people are going to like the Colts because they cant see their face through the helme?

Racists are dumb, but I think they're smart enough to realize that a minority is still a minority even if they're wearing a hat.
But you are thinking in an "active racist" way. Sure, the KKK wouldn't be fooled. But I'm talking about the subconscious "there's something about that guy I don't like" stuff that still lingers. People of different colors, cultures, and nationalities still have some xenophobic tendencies.

When Obama won the in-game Pacers poll (Family Feud game with fan) it got a definite "unfavorable" reaction from the fans that night. That's the kind of cultural difference I mean, and fans are aware of it. They and the players aren't the same types of people. There is something to the massive positive reaction Tyler got his first 2-3 seasons despite just being "okay" and certainly not better than Danny or Roy.



And look, it's fair to say that a typical black American might feel really uncomfortable at a polo match. Of course I would too, but I'm guessing not as much. NASCAR is struggling to bring in the non-white fan just as much as the Pacers are struggling to bring in fans.

BillS
02-22-2013, 04:07 PM
And like I said, look at how citizens reaction to the Al Unser Jr saga.

I really don't understand why you think there should be no difference in the public reaction to a guy who basically grew up in the public eye and began a gradual slide into trouble vs. a guy most fans didn't know from Adam who was already in trouble before the first time he set foot in town.

It's not racism. It's family.

I mean, I get the point you are trying to make, but it's a bad example.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 04:09 PM
The rep isn't a national thing only, Cowherd was talking about what LOCALS say when you visit. The average guy in "pick a suburb" Indianapolis does NOT think about the places you mention. As a downtown resident I deal with these reactions all the time. My wife was walking over to Mesh with another downtown friend and a lady from out by Avon. The Avon lady sincerely asked "are we safe, we should have a weapon just in case". From Lockerbie to freaking Mesh on Mass Ave. You might need "cute tiny dog" repellent, but a weapon? No, this isn't Broad Ripple where people get attacked, this is downtown.

So those same people would never dream of going to Fountain Square or downtown. I could take a poll at all the major malls and ask them if they knew where Saffron Cafe was and 99% or more wouldn't even know WTF you were talking about (the Moroccan place you mentioned). It's not safe in these areas and why would I drive there when I can eat at this great new place called Chedders, or Bonefish Grill, or one of the Satan Trio (Appleby's, Red Lobster, Olive Garden).

And Kountry Kitchen? No, I assure you that the average "outside 465" citizen wouldn't even be willing to get out of the car at Kountry Kitchen. (personally I'm not a soul food person and get my Chicken/Waffles at Maxines since its good and closer).



Most any city has a couple of famous restaurants that they pimp to tourists. When you go to NYC, they tell you to try the Carnegie Deli (overrated) or Katz's. Pushing people towards a "famous" restaurant isn't just an Indy thing.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 04:10 PM
But you are thinking in an "active racist" way. Sure, the KKK wouldn't be fooled. But I'm talking about the subconscious "there's something about that guy I don't like" stuff that still lingers. People of different colors, cultures, and nationalities still have some xenophobic tendencies.

When Obama won the in-game Pacers poll (Family Feud game with fan) it got a definite "unfavorable" reaction from the fans that night. That's the kind of cultural difference I mean, and fans are aware of it. They and the players aren't the same types of people. There is something to the massive positive reaction Tyler got his first 2-3 seasons despite just being "okay" and certainly not better than Danny or Roy.



And look, it's fair to say that a typical black American might feel really uncomfortable at a polo match. Of course I would too, but I'm guessing not as much. NASCAR is struggling to bring in the non-white fan just as much as the Pacers are struggling to bring in fans.

I reacted unfavorably to that Obama poll because the players voted him the greatest president of all time lol.

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 04:11 PM
See the reaction to Harbaugh's Colts.


All of your points about the Colts are extremely dated. Every piece of evidence that you have to use is at least 10 years old.

Since86
02-22-2013, 04:11 PM
When Obama won the in-game Pacers poll (Family Feud game with fan) it got a definite "unfavorable" reaction from the fans that night. That's the kind of cultural difference I mean, and fans are aware of it. They and the players aren't the same types of people. There is something to the massive positive reaction Tyler got his first 2-3 seasons despite just being "okay" and certainly not better than Danny or Roy.

So the only thing you need to know in order to label someone racist is that they disagree with a black man's politics.


This is getting more and more sad as it continues. I'm glad you feel comfortable calling a complete stranger a racist, just because they spend money differently than you. Don't go watch black guys play a sport? Racist.

There must be a whole lot of white racists since NHL is doing so awful. Falling attendance at NASCAR? Racism.

Explains everything.

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 04:11 PM
I live outside 465 and you are correct I would not get out of my car at Kountry Kitchen - at least not again, the food was horrible.


I just ate there today and thought it was delicious.

BillS
02-22-2013, 04:15 PM
The rep isn't a national thing only, Cowherd was talking about what LOCALS say when you visit. The average guy in "pick a suburb" Indianapolis does NOT think about the places you mention. As a downtown resident I deal with these reactions all the time. My wife was walking over to Mesh with another downtown friend and a lady from out by Avon. The Avon lady sincerely asked "are we safe, we should have a weapon just in case". From Lockerbie to freaking Mesh on Mass Ave. You might need "cute tiny dog" repellent, but a weapon? No, this isn't Broad Ripple where people get attacked, this is downtown.

So those same people would never dream of going to Fountain Square or downtown. I could take a poll at all the major malls and ask them if they knew where Saffron Cafe was and 99% or more wouldn't even know WTF you were talking about (the Moroccan place you mentioned). It's not safe in these areas and why would I drive there when I can eat at this great new place called Chedders, or Bonefish Grill, or one of the Satan Trio (Appleby's, Red Lobster, Olive Garden).

And Kountry Kitchen? No, I assure you that the average "outside 465" citizen wouldn't even be willing to get out of the car at Kountry Kitchen. (personally I'm not a soul food person and get my Chicken/Waffles at Maxines since its good and closer).

And in almost any working class city in the country you'll find the same thing. There will be cultural areas that aren't attended by 90% of the non-urban population. Acting like the Indy suburbs are filled with the US's only bunch of chain mongers is both silly and begs the question of how the chains could exist if only Hoosiers go there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 04:15 PM
I know I've posted a ton on this subject (again), but it's worth noting that we've been walking all through really hot territory and had a pretty solid, serious debate on the subject (again).


But as someone else mentioned, we aren't the demographic that needs to be convinced. We disagree on why fans aren't coming, but the fact is that are all paying attention and IMO that has a lot to do with our willingness to be reasonable and listen to the reasoning of others as we are doing here.

It's common sense and obvious that the Pacers are a great entertainment investment now. This means, to me, that the people staying away aren't thinking in reasonable terms. There is some hang-up, which is what these thread debate is about, that is not based on logical reasons. That's why we get frustrated by the list of reasons - price, winning, types of players, cost of food, start time, etc. None of those really stand up to hard scrutiny which tells me that the real reason is not something we will ever be able to debate away with these non-fans.

Maybe it's just something we have to accept and live with. I know a lot of you guys have already chosen to not fret over it, and maybe that's for the best. Still sucks though.

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 04:15 PM
So the only thing you need to know in order to label someone racist is that they disagree with a black man's politics.


This is getting more and more sad as it continues. I'm glad you feel comfortable calling a complete stranger a racist, just because they spend money differently than you. Don't go watch black guys play a sport? Racist.

There must be a whole lot of white racists since NHL is doing so awful. Falling attendance at NASCAR? Racism.

Explains everything.

Not to mention that the county the Pacers play in was won by Obama both times. :laugh:

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 04:17 PM
Seriously....Just....Win.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 04:20 PM
Pacers have been....by far....the dominant topic of sports radio this week. Really even over IU.

Unclebuck
02-22-2013, 04:20 PM
I just ate there today and thought it was delicious.

what did you order. Maybe I got the wrong thing

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 04:21 PM
what did you order. Maybe I got the wrong thing

Dark meat fried chicken, mashed potatoes and gravy, collard greens (best I've ever had), and cornbread.

TinManJoshua
02-22-2013, 04:22 PM
Boy, I can't imagine why people would be reluctant to go sit next to quality Pacers fans such as yourself. If interaction with people like you and TinMan are what I'm missing by not going to games, I'll count myself lucky.

It's a darn shame you don't consider yourself lucky to not meet me. I'm real fun. I never called anybody a lard ball or anything, I was just cracking wise. Besides, my comment was on the state of docility this generation(and mine) has become effected by. We'd rather get our human interaction canned and delivered to our living rooms 30 minutes at a time. Living life(actually living it) has become far too great a hassle, so we just avoid the hassle by not leaving our houses and glueing ourselves to the moving pictures machine. I never went after anyone personally, so don't lump me in with people like that.

If you don't go to games because you want to avoid people like me, you shouldn't avoid the games cause I'm not there. I live one state over. I can't drive 200 miles in an hour and a half. I do go to games when I have the time and I've never met a mean person at a game.

RWB
02-22-2013, 04:22 PM
There is some hang-up, which is what these thread debate is about, that is not based on logical reasons. That's why we get frustrated by the list of reasons - price, winning, types of players, cost of food, start time, etc. .
.
See Seth that is what gets me... Start time is very important. Maybe you live so close you just walk on down to BLF 10 minutes before the game starts and you're good to go. If the Pacers played in Terre Haute at Hulman Center I'd be there every damn game. Time and distance is a factor even if we disagree. If the Pacers can't get enough fans in Indy then they need to bring them in from Greencastle, Rockville, Terre Haute, Anderson and any other reasonable distance town. And it is only reasonable if you can make it close to the start.

Edit: I also know it works both ways. A later start time could be inconvenient for others who are attending games now and would not go if the game was later.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 04:23 PM
Let me tell y'all something. We win the next 5 before that Bulls game...the Fieldhouse will be full and it will be rocking and it won't be mostly Bulls fans and y'all can take it to the damned bank.
8pm tip, national TV. I promise you it will be 90% P's fans and it will be full.

Bball
02-22-2013, 04:25 PM
Not to mention that the county the Pacers play in was won by Obama both times. :laugh:

So then... We should've sought a trade for Obama before the deadline. Maybe Granger for Obama? Or maybe a couple of bench players. Wait... Crap... woulda been a big problem matching salaries for the trade to work.

Since86
02-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Granger would just be fake tough on terrorism. Bad idea.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 04:26 PM
I know I've posted a ton on this subject (again), but it's worth noting that we've been walking all through really hot territory and had a pretty solid, serious debate on the subject (again).


But as someone else mentioned, we aren't the demographic that needs to be convinced. We disagree on why fans aren't coming, but the fact is that are all paying attention and IMO that has a lot to do with our willingness to be reasonable and listen to the reasoning of others as we are doing here.

It's common sense and obvious that the Pacers are a great entertainment investment now. This means, to me, that the people staying away aren't thinking in reasonable terms. There is some hang-up, which is what these thread debate is about, that is not based on logical reasons. That's why we get frustrated by the list of reasons - price, winning, types of players, cost of food, start time, etc. None of those really stand up to hard scrutiny which tells me that the real reason is not something we will ever be able to debate away with these non-fans.

Maybe it's just something we have to accept and live with. I know a lot of you guys have already chosen to not fret over it, and maybe that's for the best. Still sucks though.

But youre wrong Seth...havent u been paying attention? Its all Samsungs fault.....

And last week it was the fact Indy doesnt have this awestome mass-transit system...:rolleyes:

SMosley21
02-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Pacers have been....by far....the dominant topic of sports radio this week. Really even over IU.

Which has been awesome, but a good chunk of that airtime has been spent discussing attendance. But, if the attendance topic gets to be the segue into talking about how awesome the team is, I'm all for it. I just have had enough of hearing the locals belittled over not going to games. If they're going to go it will be on their own accord, not because someone is making them feel bad about not going.

Larry built it, and slowly but surely the fans are coming...

wait... I mean... nvm

rabid
02-22-2013, 04:29 PM
You did great, except for the Samsung comment. :D

LOL I was referring more to the imagery of four family members crowded around a 32" TV in a basement. Samsung makes nice TVs. Except for the one this guy owns, THAT one is a POS :laugh:

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 04:30 PM
See Seth that is what gets me... Start time is very important. Maybe you live so close you just walk on down to BLF 10 minutes before the game starts and you're good to go. If the Pacers played in Terre Haute at Hulman Center I'd be there every damn game. Time and distance is a factor even if we disagree. If the Pacers can't get enough fans in Indy then they need to bring them in from Greencastle, Rockville, Terre Haute, Anderson and any other reasonable distance town. And it is only reasonable if you can make it close to the start.

Edit: I also know it works both ways. A later start time could be inconvenient for others who are attending games now and would not go if the game was later.

Exactly....move the start time later and then you will have the people closer complaining it ends too late to bring their kids...some already do that....you just cant please everyone when it comes to something like that...no matter what you do...and youre gonna get more fans from nearby than you are a couple hours away....that sucks for you and i realize that....but what can you do? at least some of the games, albeit a few, have later start times due to a number of different reasons...not the least of which is national tv...

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 04:32 PM
And in almost any working class city in the country you'll find the same thing. There will be cultural areas that aren't attended by 90% of the non-urban population. Acting like the Indy suburbs are filled with the US's only bunch of chain mongers is both silly and begs the question of how the chains could exist if only Hoosiers go there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
Fair point, but at the same time you've traveled enough to know that the per capita density of chains varies from city to city. Minneapolis 100% does NOT look anything like Indianapolis. Chicago doesn't look like Indianapolis. Phoenix does not look like Indianapolis because even though it has chains they de-emphasize them with city landscaping that emphasizes maintaining the desert footprint.

In Houston no one goes to Taco Bell because why would you bother, there are hundreds of other far more interesting Tex Mex options.

And I don't mean you never eat at one, I just mean that the ratio of "unique vs chain nights out" is lower in a lot of other places. Indianapolis really lacks an identity. There's not a specific cultural heritage that people associate with Indy. To me Indy has an identity on par with Columbus OH.

And part of the whole discussion comes back to what Cowherd was specifically saying - maybe the NBA is a product best served in places of greater cultural diversity rather than a place disinterested in "cultural areas of urban population". He's saying the potential fanbase of Indianapolis isn't as good for an NBA team as these other cities that can pull from a larger segment of people willing to explore those areas.


A lot of what I hear in this thread as defense actually backs his point, as do attendance and viewership figures. There was a reason the NBA gave up on Vancouver, and certainly it's a large city with an interesting population. It just wasn't an NBA city.

The confusion here is that it seemed that with the ABA Indy WAS an ABA/NBA city, but now it doesn't seem to be that kind of town.


You know plenty of other cities/states don't make as big a deal about their state fair as Indiana does. The idea of a state fair doesn't play as well in a lot of other states, but in Indiana its a pretty big deal. There's a cultural difference. Seattle or Houston just don't support a state fair event. In fact Houston, San Antonio and Dallas (I think) all have their major, 2 week RODEO instead. It's a bit similar, not not really the same thing. Houston rodeo is rodeo. You have stuff setup outside, like small rides and such, but the primary draw is inside watching the actual rodeo. They march the cattle and such to the dome (or Reliant now I guess) right down the highways or major roads. That's not part of Indiana's culture. It's a different place with people who grew up thinking differently.


The bigger cities have the advantage of being able to support multiple major cultural basis at the same time, but in towns the size of Indy you are going to have 1-2 flavors of interest at most and everything else will struggle to gain traction.

RWB
02-22-2013, 04:34 PM
Oh yeah I like tv. Got a 50" and 42" Samsung, 65" Panasonic, and two 37" Vizios for the bedrooms. For the best entertainment dollar I've got a 120" screen using an Epson projector in the basement/theater room and I prefer to go to games when I can make it on time. :)

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 04:37 PM
RWB - but don't IU games have the same travel and start time issues? Most of the affluent Indy areas are north of the city, and at best those people maybe work downtown. So how are they making the drive down for an IU game on time?

We know that not all of an IU game is filled with people from Bloomington. Plenty of Indy people drive down for games. They do so because they have greater passion for that product and are more willing to adjust schedules and put up with the inconvenience.


Every guy here knows that concept - watch the hoops a guy will jump through for the super hot girl vs the effort they'll put in for someone they just aren't into. Suddenly they'll say "yeah, but I just don't feel like going out on TUE night, and dinner costs so much, etc", but when it comes to the girl they are passionate about they ignore all those factors and never bring them up.

So the point is that the excuses aren't the real problem, it's the lack of connection that sparks that passion. Get that passion and they won't mention parking, start times, or ticket prices. Those are just excuses covering the real problem that comes back to the thread title - I'm just not that into you.

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 04:38 PM
Oh yeah I like tv. Got a 50" and 42" Samsung, 65" Panasonic, and two 37" Vizios for the bedrooms. For the best entertainment dollar I've got a 120" screen using an Epson projector in the basement/theater room and I prefer to go to games when I can make it on time. :)

Bingo.....ty....every time I hear someone say its better to sit at home and watch the game versus being at the actual game itself I just want to :puke:

RWB
02-22-2013, 04:41 PM
The bigger cities have the advantage of being able to support multiple major cultural basis at the same time, but in towns the size of Indy you are going to have 1-2 flavors of interest at most and everything else will struggle to gain traction.

If we're going this far into the conversation I know you and Bill are very aware of this. Indiana can't even keep the best and brightest. Please folks understand I'm not putting down Hoosiers (born and raised here) but there is a certain brain drain from the state where students with top degrees move on out when they graduate.

CableKC
02-22-2013, 04:44 PM
I live outside 465 and you are correct I would not get out of my car at Kountry Kitchen - at least not again, the food was horrible.
Is that the Kountry Kitchen that has Chicken and Waffles that is next to some parking structure and in a "not so great" location?

rabid
02-22-2013, 04:47 PM
If we're going this far into the conversation I know you and Bill are very aware of this. Indiana can't even keep the best and brightest. Please folks understand I'm not putting down Hoosiers (born and raised here) but there is a certain brain drain from the state where students with top degrees move on out when they graduate.

Yup I got three degrees in Indiana: AS from Ivy Tech, Bachelor's and Master's from IU. I now work in Silicon Valley.... though I wish I could bring the Pacers and Fieldhouse out here with me :(

rabid
02-22-2013, 04:48 PM
Bingo.....ty....every time I hear someone say its better to sit at home and watch the game versus being at the actual game itself I just want to :puke:

Heck I didn't even mention the new 50-foot display in the Fieldhouse during my rant, which I imagine cancels out that whole argument in terms of visibility

graphic-er
02-22-2013, 04:49 PM
Let me tell y'all something. We win the next 5 before that Bulls game...the Fieldhouse will be full and it will be rocking and it won't be mostly Bulls fans and y'all can take it to the damned bank.
8pm tip, national TV. I promise you it will be 90% P's fans and it will be full.

I want to believe, you but history says you'll be wrong. Those Chicago fans have already bought the tickets.

Since86
02-22-2013, 04:50 PM
Bingo.....ty....every time I hear someone say its better to sit at home and watch the game versus being at the actual game itself I just want to :puke:

It's not the view. It's the comfort. Want a beer? Don't have to stand in line. Just go to the fridge and grab one. (Saves you $6.50 in the process) Want food? Just go back into the kitchen.

And then you figure out, hey I can pause this thing while I get my rear-end off the couch. Then you figure out that that record button allows you to wait 30-40mins after tip off, and you get to skip all of the timeouts and half time!

Then you realize that you save 3hrs worth of driving time, and $30 worth of gas. Instead of getting home at 1130 and staying up for another hour or so, you're already at home.


Does the atmosphere makeup for all those advantages? Not for some people. And not for me, to be honest. I've said it before, but the only reason I go to games is to give them my money.


I don't think the NBA can compete with the luxuries of your own home. Me and my GF are still planning on getting season tix next year, but to be honest, I doubt I make it to 30 games. Getting to Indy from Muncie and then home again just shoots the entire night. If I stay at home, I get all the luxuries that come with it, plus I have 3-4extra hours to do something other than drive.

rabid
02-22-2013, 04:54 PM
It's not the view. It's the comfort. Want a beer? Don't have to stand in line. Just go to the fridge and grab one. (Saves you $6.50 in the process) Want food? Just go back into the kitchen.

And then you figure out, hey I can pause this thing while I get my rear-end off the couch. Then you figure out that that record button allows you to wait 30-40mins after tip off, and you get to skip all of the timeouts and half time!

Then you realize that you save 3hrs worth of driving time, and $30 worth of gas. Instead of getting home at 1130 and staying up for another hour or so, you're already at home.


Does the atmosphere makeup for all those advantages? Not for some people. And not for me, to be honest. I've said it before, but the only reason I go to games is to give them my money.


I don't think the NBA can compete with the luxuries of your own home. Me and my GF are still planning on getting season tix next year, but to be honest, I doubt I make it to 30 games. Getting to Indy from Muncie and then home again just shoots the entire night. If I stay at home, I get all the luxuries that come with it, plus I have 3-4extra hours to do something other than drive.

This is a great argument against getting SEASON tickets, but IMO it is not an argument against going to a handful of games each year. Not sure where the "3-4 extra hours" come from either unless you live in Lafayette or Bloomington....

Since86
02-22-2013, 04:55 PM
I'm from Muncie. It takes me about an hour and fifteen minutes to get to BLF. Multiply it by two and you're right at 3 1/2 hrs. I drive 80 pretty much the whole way, and I'm not gonna go any faster.

CableKC
02-22-2013, 04:59 PM
Seriously....Just....Win.
To be clear....win what? Win the ECF? Win a Championship? Win games against the Super Teams that fans only pay attention to?

rabid
02-22-2013, 05:00 PM
I'm from Muncie. It takes me about an hour and fifteen minutes to get to BLF. Multiply it by two and you're right at 3 1/2 hrs. I drive 80 pretty much the whole way, and I'm not gonna go any faster.

I don't think people living in Muncie are what's causing the attendance problems...

RWB
02-22-2013, 05:00 PM
I'm from Muncie. It takes me about an hour and fifteen minutes to get to BLF. Multiply it by two and you're right at 3 1/2 hrs. I drive 80 pretty much the whole way, and I'm not gonna go any faster.
Been there done that actually after the New York game. Got pulled over by State one mile east of Rockville going 67 in a 55. Really nice guy that let me off with a warning. Very thankful or that game experience would have been rather expensive.

CableKC
02-22-2013, 05:00 PM
Yup I got three degrees in Indiana: AS from Ivy Tech, Bachelor's and Master's from IU. I now work in Silicon Valley.... though I wish I could bring the Pacers and Fieldhouse out here with me :(
Yeah....no kidding. Me too. :buddies:

But question to you....since it relates to me as well. Since both of us live outside of Indiana and we see how much support the Warriors have ( even before the Mark Jackson years ).......how do you view the level of fan support that the local Indy fanbase gives to the Pacers?

As an out of State fan.....reading responses like this Fan letter and the overall lack of general support for the Team.....I find it hard to stray from my "Indiana just doesn't seem to deserve nor want a NBA Professional Team" comment.

rabid
02-22-2013, 05:02 PM
Yeah....no kidding. Me too. :buddies:

We need to meet up next year when we both go see the Pacers at Oracle... what's your degree in? CS? I'm a UI designer...

cinotimz
02-22-2013, 05:04 PM
I'm from Muncie. It takes me about an hour and fifteen minutes to get to BLF. Multiply it by two and you're right at 3 1/2 hrs. I drive 80 pretty much the whole way, and I'm not gonna go any faster.

Lol...hmmmm...obviously a Ball State or IU grad....We wouldnt let you into Purdue with that sort of math ;) ;) And yet you cant wait to get your season tickets, right?

TinManJoshua
02-22-2013, 05:07 PM
I don't think the NBA can compete with the luxuries of your own home.

The problem is where does this end? It doesn't stop at the NBA. Why go to football games? Why go to college sports games? Why go to a movie theater? Why go to bars?

You can have all that stuff at home, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD do everything at home. I'll say again, I'm not going after anybody personally. "In this economy?" Is one of the great tricks of our generation. No one ever has money, but they have all the neatest gadgets, buy their kids(or themselves) all the newest video games, and have great big beautiful TVs to watch because they don't have any money to ever go out.

RWB
02-22-2013, 05:11 PM
RWB - but don't IU games have the same travel and start time issues? Most of the affluent Indy areas are north of the city, and at best those people maybe work downtown. So how are they making the drive down for an IU game on time?

We know that not all of an IU game is filled with people from Bloomington. Plenty of Indy people drive down for games. They do so because they have greater passion for that product and are more willing to adjust schedules and put up with the inconvenience.



Seth, I don't have an answer to get out of this box. For those around Indy you're right and I agree. Might fight ad nauseam has been additional opportunities for people out of town (Sat/Sun) or the Friday later PM game. We've purchased 14 tickets/games (times 2) for the season and blew off 4 already because work and play didn't match up. I really feel sorry for BillS and the investment he has made because there is no way I would spend that kind of cash and watch it blow away.

CableKC
02-22-2013, 05:11 PM
We need to meet up next year when we both go see the Pacers at Oracle... what's your degree in? CS? I'm a UI designer...
Sorry...I meant that I live in the Bay Area too....not that I lived in Indy and got my degree in UI.

But yes.....next year....we will have to meet up at a game. Hopefully Seth, Gnome and El Pacero will come out next season to another game.

rabid
02-22-2013, 05:37 PM
Sorry...I meant that I live in the Bay Area too....not that I lived in Indy and got my degree in UI.

But yes.....next year....we will have to meet up at a game. Hopefully Seth, Gnome and El Pacero will come out next season to another game.

so that WAS El Pacero I saw trying to sneak down to the front rows earlier this year... Lol

Nuntius
02-22-2013, 06:31 PM
If Sacto, Charlotte, Memphis, Portland or Millwaukee had this team with it's current run, they'd be selling out a lot more games and would have a lot more attendance at this point.


I wanted to comment on this earlier but I had to go out so I'm commenting now.

The Sacramento fanbase is really loyal. It's very touching how hard they try to keep a struggling Kings franchise even though the Maloofs have done all they could to run into the ground. A fanbase like that really deserves a team.

A "fan" like that David Anderson doesn't deserve a team. He deserves the Maloofs not the Simons.

ChicagoJ
02-22-2013, 06:43 PM
If we're going this far into the conversation I know you and Bill are very aware of this. Indiana can't even keep the best and brightest. Please folks understand I'm not putting down Hoosiers (born and raised here) but there is a certain brain drain from the state where students with top degrees move on out when they graduate.

:wave:

D-BONE
02-22-2013, 07:17 PM
What is the crime with sitting in the balcony?

Yes it is high up, but the views are still excellent, you an see offensive sets develop better, and you watch the game in the premier arena in the NBA. The arena experience/vantage point is much better than television. I still have yet to figure this out.

We've had balcony seats in my family back to MSA. The analogous seats we were transferred to in BLF are a better view. Agree the views up there are great for balcony. Certainly if you can get lower rows up there it's worth going and taking family given the reasonable prices.

Banta
02-22-2013, 07:18 PM
In response to everyone who complains that Indiana doesn't deserve the team because locals don't show enough support-- the situation is what it is. There are not enough people who want to attend the games for BLF to sell out. Those are the facts. The people who don't come to the games don't want to. Should they buy tickets to a game they don't want to attend out of some obligation to a corporation? No, the facts are that YOU want to attend the games but lots of other people don't and they have no obligation to do so. It couldn't be any more simple.

Now I have to go wash the Daihatsu.

CableKC
02-22-2013, 07:27 PM
so that WAS El Pacero I saw trying to sneak down to the front rows earlier this year... Lol
Yes, it was....if you see a guy at a Pacer game with a championship belt around his shoulder....assume that it's him.

You should have come down.....Seth, Mrs. Gnome's lucky Husband, Mrs. Gnome, El Pacero and I were in the lower bowl section talking it up during the game.

Next Pacer game in Oracle Arena, we have to remember to meet up.

rabid
02-22-2013, 09:21 PM
In response to everyone who complains that Indiana doesn't deserve the team because locals don't show enough support-- the situation is what it is. There are not enough people who want to attend the games for BLF to sell out. Those are the facts. The people who don't come to the games don't want to. Should they buy tickets to a game they don't want to attend out of some obligation to a corporation? No, the facts are that YOU want to attend the games but lots of other people don't and they have no obligation to do so. It couldn't be any more simple.

Now I have to go wash the Daihatsu.

Well obviously.

The issue is when people don't own up to the real reasons why they don't want to go. Misinformation can really hurt the team and prevent people who otherwise WOULD want to go form going.

What pissed me off about the article was all of the flat out lies and willful ignorance, clearly it's the guy's right to not want to go to a game.

If you're just not interested, that's fine, but OWN that. Don't hide behind some BS like "it costs $90 a game for lower level seats." That's simply a lie. Very frustrating when guys like me would probably be sitting in the 10th row tonight (and most nights) if they still lived in Indy...

On a lighter note, attendance tonight was 17,750! w00t

Trophy
02-22-2013, 09:29 PM
With a near sellout tonight and likely the start to many more, that individual can go :censored: his or herself.

You can't please everyone, but thousands and thousands of people in Indy are fans of the Pacers. Diehard, casual, etc.

Let's move on and stop catering to the few who obviously weren't fans of the Pacers, for whatever reason. That goes for any team in any city. Not everyone is interested.

Sollozzo
02-22-2013, 10:30 PM
If we're going this far into the conversation I know you and Bill are very aware of this. Indiana can't even keep the best and brightest. Please folks understand I'm not putting down Hoosiers (born and raised here) but there is a certain brain drain from the state where students with top degrees move on out when they graduate.

Indy will never be able to compete with a Chicago or New York, but it's not doing too bad for a landlocked city in the middle of nowhere:

The 10-county Indianapolis-Carmel metro area fueled much of Indiana's population growth over the past decade, adding 231,137 people, according to analysis by the Indiana Business Research Center at IU's Kelley School of Business.

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/17319.html

There's Indiana, and then there's Indianapolis. Growth in most of Indiana is pretty stagnant. Growth in Indy, however, is very strong.

graphic-er
02-22-2013, 10:31 PM
So was it the overall shaming of Indianapolis over the past 2 weeks by the media as a whole that got 17K+ to watch the Pistons or was the team killing New York and Chicago and Paul George with his great All-star game.

rm1369
02-22-2013, 11:09 PM
Interesting thread. I've learned I'm racist, uncultured, a ****** fan, and an all around horrible person. I'm not the author of the article, but I agree / understand most of his arguments. Until very recently I would have considered myself a die hard fan. Ive never been a season ticket holder, but I would attend around 8-10 games a year and watch nearly all the rest on TV. I've not been to a single game this year for the first time in nearly 20 years (excluding a couple years spent living out of state) And only watched a handfull on tv. I had a circle of friends and family that loved the pacers - went to games together, talked / argued about them, and, most importantly, cared. Their particpation has dwindled as well. The reasons are small and many. There is no single universal reason people are not attending. Many of the reasons you guys like to ridicule are very valid small pieces to the puzzle - just not the entire picture. My personal list:

- I've realized I don't care much for the NBA. It's funny that every time someone mentions that the Pacers can't win without a superstar they are called a bandwagon fan who only wants to follow a Lebron James type player. My belief and experience is that the issue is the exact opposite - it's not that I want a LBJ, its a complaint that you can't win a title in the NBA without one. That's what the Washington Generals comment refers to. It's not commentary on the Pacers, its commentary on the NBA. I don't need or expect my team to win every year, but I have to believe they can eventually win. That they can build a champion. And the honest truth is I DON'T. Not anymore. I don't remember when exactly it changed, but its very similar to finding out there is no Santa. I want to believe, I really truly do. But I can't. And every time I see Dwade flop his way to the line or jump into a defender, it just reinforces my understanding of David Sterns NBA.

-Atmosphere. It's a bit of a chicken / egg argument here. I took my daughter to a few games last year and had a decent time. I took her to a colts game this year and had a great time. The combo of the constant "entertainment" and (here is the chicken /egg part) the lack of crowd made it seem a lot less special to my daughter. You felt like you were a part of something at the Colts game. We were just watching at the Pacers game. My daughter has no big allegiance to either team or sport, but I know which one she would prefer to go to - so guess where I'll spend my money. This will change some as fans slowly come back and I'm sure I'll take her back at some point.

- I simply got out of the habit of following the team religiously and my interest has steadily declined. I blame JOB (and Bird) for this. I started disliking the product so much that I started purposely not watching on some nights. And I found other things to do. So I watched a little less accidentally - I'd forget they had a game on occasion, etc. My wife noticed and stopped planning things around their schedule, so I missed a few more games. And my life goes on. Many people are creatures of habit. Once they've lost that habit it isnt so easy to turn back on. You have to rebuild it and that takes time.

Most of my friends and family have similiar Reasons. I'd love to be more interested. I love being caught up and invested in the team and the moment (that's why you watch sports) But my current feelings about the NBA make it extremely tough to watch consistantly enough to rebuild my habit. The fact that my daughter only somewhat likes going to pacers games and my friends and family are in a similar place as me certainly doesn't help.

I understand everyone's concern and in some ways feel bad for the team. However, if you really want to help the Pacers, I'd suggest that the majority of the posters in this thread not talk about the Pacers to anyone but die-hard fans. Because the last thing this thread makes me want to do is go to a damn Pacer game.

Since86
02-22-2013, 11:18 PM
The problem is where does this end? It doesn't stop at the NBA. Why go to football games? Why go to college sports games? Why go to a movie theater? Why go to bars?

You can have all that stuff at home, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD do everything at home. I'll say again, I'm not going after anybody personally. "In this economy?" Is one of the great tricks of our generation. No one ever has money, but they have all the neatest gadgets, buy their kids(or themselves) all the newest video games, and have great big beautiful TVs to watch because they don't have any money to ever go out.

It doesn't end. Peck talks about how it grinds him when people talk about how they like college better, and he brings up DePauw. No one goes to those games. You're a Kent State guy, you guys have probably have some rough attendance. Ball St struggles with everything. They barely get people to go when the teams are good, let alone when they suck. I think they're getting like 2,000 at home mens games.

NASCAR attendance is falling. Movie theaters are losing money like crazy.

Bars have lost a lot of their business from the smoking bans as well.

graphic-er
02-22-2013, 11:38 PM
-Atmosphere. It's a bit of a chicken / egg argument here. I took my daughter to a few games last year and had a decent time. I took her to a colts game this year and had a great time. The combo of the constant "entertainment" and (here is the chicken /egg part) the lack of crowd made it seem a lot less special to my daughter. You felt like you were a part of something at the Colts game. We were just watching at the Pacers game. My daughter has no big allegiance to either team or sport, but I know which one she would prefer to go to - so guess where I'll spend my money. This will change some as fans slowly come back and I'm sure I'll take her back at some point. Your experience was predetermined. You lamented the Pacers for having a few really bad years while they were building this current monster.



I understand everyone's concern and in some ways feel bad for the team. However, if you really want to help the Pacers, I'd suggest that the majority of the posters in this thread not talk about the Pacers to anyone but die-hard fans. Because the last thing this thread makes me want to do is go to a damn Pacer game. You aren't going to one anyway by your own admission. This thread had no impact on that. So if you read a thread and feel personally attacked by it, then thats on you, nobody singled you out. You singled yourself out.

rm1369
02-22-2013, 11:53 PM
Your experience was predetermined. You lamented the Pacers for having a few really bad years while they were building this current monster.

No my daughter and the crowd determined my experience. Are you suggesting that a half sold out BLF has the same excitement as a a sold out LOS? My whole point is the current lack of attendance makes the whole experience less. So much so that my daughter loves going to Colts games and is only so - so about about Pacer games. Hence the chicken / egg reference. You need people to make it an experience people want to come to.


You aren't going to one anyway by your own admission. This thread had no impact on that. So if you read a thread and feel personally attacked by it, then thats on you, nobody singled you out. You singled yourself out. Did I say I'm not going because of this thread? Did I say I was personally attacked? I'm simply stating that the attitudes in this thread wouldn't help recruit people to games. Do you disagree with that? Do you think printing this thread in indystar would help pacers attendance? I've seen too many people I would have considered quality posters sounding like asses in this thread

Since86
02-23-2013, 12:01 AM
Is there any excuse that is justifiable to not attend? The way these discussions go, I wouldn't think there is one. I mean, when people try to justify why it's a good idea to charge crazy concession prices with it being in line with movie theaters, as movie theaters across the country are struggling, says something. It says people don't want to pay them there either.

It just seems like every reason that people don't go, is because there's something wrong with them. They're racist. They're ignorant. Etc. Face it folks, we are the very very small minority. Thinking that other people are wrong, because they chose to spend their money differently isn't all that hard to figure out.

You have to put a product worthy of the cost on the floor. Winning does most of it, but you're not going to get people running back quickly. You'll pick up the bandwagoners at the end when you're making a push, but for the most part, people are going to want consistent winning before you see consistent attendance. If the Pacers have a great season, like they have been, and make a pretty good playoff run, and we this is a problem next season at this time then I don't know if Indy would be able to really support a NBA franchise.

That would suck.

Heisenberg
02-23-2013, 12:05 AM
Interesting thread. I've learned I'm racist, uncultured, a ****** fan, and an all around horrible person. I'm not the author of the article, but I agree / understand most of his arguments. Until very recently I would have considered myself a die hard fan. Ive never been a season ticket holder, but I would attend around 8-10 games a year and watch nearly all the rest on TV. I've not been to a single game this year for the first time in nearly 20 years (excluding a couple years spent living out of state) And only watched a handfull on tv. I had a circle of friends and family that loved the pacers - went to games together, talked / argued about them, and, most importantly, cared. Their particpation has dwindled as well. The reasons are small and many. There is no single universal reason people are not attending. Many of the reasons you guys like to ridicule are very valid small pieces to the puzzle - just not the entire picture. My personal list:

- I've realized I don't care much for the NBA. It's funny that every time someone mentions that the Pacers can't win without a superstar they are called a bandwagon fan who only wants to follow a Lebron James type player. My belief and experience is that the issue is the exact opposite - it's not that I want a LBJ, its a complaint that you can't win a title in the NBA without one. That's what the Washington Generals comment refers to. It's not commentary on the Pacers, its commentary on the NBA. I don't need or expect my team to win every year, but I have to believe they can eventually win. That they can build a champion. And the honest truth is I DON'T. Not anymore. I don't remember when exactly it changed, but its very similar to finding out there is no Santa. I want to believe, I really truly do. But I can't. And every time I see Dwade flop his way to the line or jump into a defender, it just reinforces my understanding of David Sterns NBA.

-Atmosphere. It's a bit of a chicken / egg argument here. I took my daughter to a few games last year and had a decent time. I took her to a colts game this year and had a great time. The combo of the constant "entertainment" and (here is the chicken /egg part) the lack of crowd made it seem a lot less special to my daughter. You felt like you were a part of something at the Colts game. We were just watching at the Pacers game. My daughter has no big allegiance to either team or sport, but I know which one she would prefer to go to - so guess where I'll spend my money. This will change some as fans slowly come back and I'm sure I'll take her back at some point.

- I simply got out of the habit of following the team religiously and my interest has steadily declined. I blame JOB (and Bird) for this. I started disliking the product so much that I started purposely not watching on some nights. And I found other things to do. So I watched a little less accidentally - I'd forget they had a game on occasion, etc. My wife noticed and stopped planning things around their schedule, so I missed a few more games. And my life goes on. Many people are creatures of habit. Once they've lost that habit it isnt so easy to turn back on. You have to rebuild it and that takes time.

Most of my friends and family have similiar Reasons. I'd love to be more interested. I love being caught up and invested in the team and the moment (that's why you watch sports) But my current feelings about the NBA make it extremely tough to watch consistantly enough to rebuild my habit. The fact that my daughter only somewhat likes going to pacers games and my friends and family are in a similar place as me certainly doesn't help.

I understand everyone's concern and in some ways feel bad for the team. However, if you really want to help the Pacers, I'd suggest that the majority of the posters in this thread not talk about the Pacers to anyone but die-hard fans. Because the last thing this thread makes me want to do is go to a damn Pacer game.

So what would make you change your mind? I'm not being snarky or anything, genuinely asking. Is it even anything the Pacers could do or you just would need large league wide changes to the product as a whole?

graphic-er
02-23-2013, 12:31 AM
No my daughter and the crowd determined my experience. Are you suggesting that a half sold out BLF has the same excitement as a a sold out LOS? My whole point is the current lack of attendance makes the whole experience less. So much so that my daughter loves going to Colts games and is only so - so about about Pacer games. Hence the chicken / egg reference. You need people to make it an experience people want to come to. LOL...If the Pacers are kicking *** and taking names then a half sold out BLF is plenty exciting and raucous. Ever been to a Colts game where they are getting blown out? Its a pretty sad place. The size of the crowd does not determine my enjoyment. It is the players and the team and the game that determine my enjoyment. You had so so experience at the Pacer game last year because you admittedly do not care much for the team or the game anymore. Thus your experience was predetermined. I don't see how it had anything to do with the crowd.




Did I say I'm not going because of this thread?Did I say I was personally attacked? I'm simply stating that the attitudes in this thread wouldn't help recruit people to games. Do you disagree with that? Do you think printing this thread in indystar would help pacers attendance? I've seen too many people I would have considered quality posters sounding like asses in this thread

"I've learned I'm racist, uncultured, a ****** fan, and an all around horrible person."

"Because the last thing this thread makes me want to do is go to a damn Pacer game. "

If this thread kept you away from going to a Pacers game, then you weren't going anyways.

rm1369
02-23-2013, 12:47 AM
So what would make you change your mind? I'm not being snarky or anything, genuinely asking. Is it even anything the Pacers could do or you just would need large league wide changes to the product as a whole?

My single biggest issue is with the league - not the team. There was a slow erosion of the "magic" and, honestly, a deep hatred and distrust for David Stern. (His retirement may help). I honestly don't know what the team could do. I certainly had my complaints about the teams management over the past 10 years, but that has nothing to do with my current apathy. I'm not trying to be punitive with them. As I said, I'd love to have that belief back, but its hard to make yourself truly believe something just because you want too.

A league wide shift away from preferential treatment and reliance on superstars would certainly help. Isn't going to happen though. Being proven wrong (another Detroit) would certainly help. But, IMO, its only slightly more realistic.

rm1369
02-23-2013, 01:00 AM
LOL...If the Pacers are kicking *** and taking names then a half sold out BLF is plenty exciting and raucous. Ever been to a Colts game where they are getting blown out? Its a pretty sad place. The size of the crowd does not determine my enjoyment. It is the players and the team and the game that determine my enjoyment. You had so so experience at the Pacer game last year because you admittedly do not care much for the team or the game anymore. Thus your experience was predetermined. I don't see how it had anything to do with the crowd.

I had a so so time at the game because my daughter was ****ing bored half the damn game - both times. I went to the game for her. She doesn't understand either game to the point of really caring. She gets excited when the crowd is excited. It isn't that hard to understand if you aren't just being an ***. And the colts lost the game I took her too (Jacksonville) - granted they were up most of the game.




If this thread kept you away from going to a Pacers game, then you weren't going anyways.

Whatever. If you can't understand that the attitudes reflected in this thread would likely have a negative impact if expressed to the people on the fence about going to games then there is no reason to discuss it further.

CableKC
02-23-2013, 01:02 AM
Interesting thread. I've learned I'm racist, uncultured, a ****** fan, and an all around horrible person. I'm not the author of the article, but I agree / understand most of his arguments. Until very recently I would have considered myself a die hard fan. Ive never been a season ticket holder, but I would attend around 8-10 games a year and watch nearly all the rest on TV. I've not been to a single game this year for the first time in nearly 20 years (excluding a couple years spent living out of state) And only watched a handfull on tv. I had a circle of friends and family that loved the pacers - went to games together, talked / argued about them, and, most importantly, cared. Their particpation has dwindled as well. The reasons are small and many. There is no single universal reason people are not attending. Many of the reasons you guys like to ridicule are very valid small pieces to the puzzle - just not the entire picture. My personal list:

- I've realized I don't care much for the NBA. It's funny that every time someone mentions that the Pacers can't win without a superstar they are called a bandwagon fan who only wants to follow a Lebron James type player. My belief and experience is that the issue is the exact opposite - it's not that I want a LBJ, its a complaint that you can't win a title in the NBA without one. That's what the Washington Generals comment refers to. It's not commentary on the Pacers, its commentary on the NBA. I don't need or expect my team to win every year, but I have to believe they can eventually win. That they can build a champion. And the honest truth is I DON'T. Not anymore. I don't remember when exactly it changed, but its very similar to finding out there is no Santa. I want to believe, I really truly do. But I can't. And every time I see Dwade flop his way to the line or jump into a defender, it just reinforces my understanding of David Sterns NBA.

-Atmosphere. It's a bit of a chicken / egg argument here. I took my daughter to a few games last year and had a decent time. I took her to a colts game this year and had a great time. The combo of the constant "entertainment" and (here is the chicken /egg part) the lack of crowd made it seem a lot less special to my daughter. You felt like you were a part of something at the Colts game. We were just watching at the Pacers game. My daughter has no big allegiance to either team or sport, but I know which one she would prefer to go to - so guess where I'll spend my money. This will change some as fans slowly come back and I'm sure I'll take her back at some point.

- I simply got out of the habit of following the team religiously and my interest has steadily declined. I blame JOB (and Bird) for this. I started disliking the product so much that I started purposely not watching on some nights. And I found other things to do. So I watched a little less accidentally - I'd forget they had a game on occasion, etc. My wife noticed and stopped planning things around their schedule, so I missed a few more games. And my life goes on. Many people are creatures of habit. Once they've lost that habit it isnt so easy to turn back on. You have to rebuild it and that takes time.

Most of my friends and family have similiar Reasons. I'd love to be more interested. I love being caught up and invested in the team and the moment (that's why you watch sports) But my current feelings about the NBA make it extremely tough to watch consistantly enough to rebuild my habit. The fact that my daughter only somewhat likes going to pacers games and my friends and family are in a similar place as me certainly doesn't help.

I understand everyone's concern and in some ways feel bad for the team. However, if you really want to help the Pacers, I'd suggest that the majority of the posters in this thread not talk about the Pacers to anyone but die-hard fans. Because the last thing this thread makes me want to do is go to a damn Pacer game.
Before I start, let me say that I respect your opinion and can understand what you are trying to say.

From what I can tell, there are 2 parts to this when it comes to supporting the Team.

I get the part about what you say about the "experience and Product" that you see when you spend time and money to go to a game at BILF. Simply put...the product that PS&E markets to the fans isn't what you'd expect and want from going to a Professional Basketball game.

But the 2nd part that I am not sure that you answered is if you'd simply support the Team while watching the game at home. I get that over the last couple of years...the product under JO'B sucked....but the Team, how it's run, what it does on the offense and defensive end...has changed 180 degrees. To me, there is a difference between the product/experience that you have when you go to a game at BILF and just supporting the Team ( in general ) because of the product that they put on the floor throughout the season.

Have you watched enough games this season to see that this Team run under Vogel is different than the garbage that JO'B put on the floor? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here....I'm just saying that if you watch the Team from home on Fox Sport Indiana....you'll see that this Team is NOTHING like the Team that you were so turned off by under JO'B.

Also...I'm trying to understand if the NBA product ( As a whole ) turns you off or simply anything that is related to the Pacers. For example.....a Heat game will likely be sold out ( hence the overall BILF fan experience should be better ) ....would you go to see that game cuz the Heat are playing? or would it even matter cuz it's irrelevant what Team is there cuz the overall NBA product is what you are not interested in?

rm1369
02-23-2013, 01:31 AM
Before I start, let me say that I respect your opinion and can understand what you are trying to say.

From what I can tell, there are 2 parts to this when it comes to supporting the Team.

I get the part about what you say about the "experience and Product" that you see when you spend time and money to go to a game at BILF. Simply put...the product that PS&E markets to the fans isn't what you'd expect and want from going to a Professional Basketball game.

But the 2nd part that I am not sure that you answered is if you'd simply support the Team while watching the game at home. I get that over the last couple of years...the product under JO'B sucked....but the Team, how it's run, what it does on the offense and defensive end...has changed 180 degrees. To me, there is a difference between the product/experience that you have when you go to a game at BILF and just supporting the Team ( in general ) because of the product that they put on the floor throughout the season.

Have you watched enough games this season to see that this Team run under Vogel is different than the garbage that JO'B put on the floor? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here....I'm just saying that if you watch the Team from home on Fox Sport Indiana....you'll see that this Team is NOTHING like the Team that you were so turned off by under JO'B.

On the first part, I'm not entirely complaining about the quality of the product at BLF. I don't care for the games and gimmicks that I believe cheapen the experience (for me), but I don't really mean to insinuate that is keeping me away. All I'm trying to say is that the current lack of a crowd makes it less fun. I realize the irony in what I'm saying, but that doesn't change the fact that the games I took my daughter to last year where just OK when compared to other options. This will correct itself as more people come to games and I will likely take my daughter back once the crowds are back to give her a better experience. I just have little interest it again taking her to games where there is no one sitting near us in the balcony as was the case at the previous games.

On the second part, I'm not at all trying to be punitive with the team. I didn't purposely leave. I started taking games off because I absolutely hated the JOB led teams. I was getting angry to the point it wasn't worth it. I didn't completely leave and I didn't intend to be where I am now. However, from there started a slow (unintentional) slide away from the team and the league (separate issues). I'm not an uninformed fan. I know every player on the team, their game, and that they all have been good citizens (which has never been a real concern of mine anyways). I like the team. I don't like the league. And I've lost the habit of following them religiously. Maybe it's the definition of "bandwagon", but IMO a big factor in attendance is that a large portion of the fans lost that habit for various reasons. Those reasons may be gone, but its hard to get back in the habit of watching 75+ games when you've filled that void with something else. Not only did my habits change, but so did my families. Currently my dislike of the league is my big issue. It's hard for me to fully invest in the team when I don't like the league.

Nuntius
02-23-2013, 01:49 AM
but I agree / understand most of his arguments.

So, you agree /understand that the Pacers are LeBron's *****es?



I don't need or expect my team to win every year, but I have to believe they can eventually win. That they can build a champion. And the honest truth is I DON'T. Not anymore. I don't remember when exactly it changed, but its very similar to finding out there is no Santa. I want to believe, I really truly do. But I can't. And every time I see Dwade flop his way to the line or jump into a defender, it just reinforces my understanding of David Sterns NBA.


1) So, when the Pacers win will you be back? Will you return when they beat the Heat in the ECF?

2) Stern has already announced his retirement next season. It's not his NBA anymore.

PS: I am from Greece. I always loved and played basketball. European basketball is much different than the NBA. The team is emphasized and not the individuals / superstars. Good coaches shine. I'm not a fan of the NBA. In fact, I used to hate it. Now, I don't hate it but I don't like several things about it either (superstar calls, large market bias etc).

But this Indiana Pacers team encompasses what's good in basketball. Seriously. I wouldn't follow the NBA if it wasn't for the Pacers.

CableKC
02-23-2013, 01:53 AM
On the first part, I'm not entirely complaining about the quality of the product at BLF. I don't care for the games and gimmicks that I believe cheapen the experience (for me), but I don't really mean to insinuate that is keeping me away. All I'm trying to say is that the current lack of a crowd makes it less fun. I realize the irony in what I'm saying, but that doesn't change the fact that the games I took my daughter to last year where just OK when compared to other options. This will correct itself as more people come to games and I will likely take my daughter back once the crowds are back to give her a better experience. I just have little interest it again taking her to games where there is no one sitting near us in the balcony as was the case at the previous games.

On the second part, I'm not at all trying to be punitive with the team. I didn't purposely leave. I started taking games off because I absolutely hated the JOB led teams. I was getting angry to the point it wasn't worth it. I didn't completely leave and I didn't intend to be where I am now. However, from there started a slow (unintentional) slide away from the team and the league (separate issues). I'm not an uninformed fan. I know every player on the team, their game, and that they all have been good citizens (which has never been a real concern of mine anyways). I like the team. I don't like the league. And I've lost the habit of following them religiously. Maybe it's the definition of "bandwagon", but IMO a big factor in attendance is that a large portion of the fans lost that habit for various reasons. Those reasons may be gone, but its hard to get back in the habit of watching 75+ games when you've filled that void with something else. Not only did my habits change, but so did my families. Currently my dislike of the league is my big issue. It's hard for me to fully invest in the team when I don't like the league.
I highlighted the part that I think stands out the most. The sentiment that you left because of JO'B ball isn't unusual a few years back. If you go back to many of the Post-Season threads during the JO'B years.....there were A LOT of hard core PD Members here that were ready to leave...even STH that told their Agents that they would not renew their Season Tickets if JO'B returned. Many of us decided to stick it out and were rewarded with Vogel-Ball....while UNDERSTANDABLY...others ( like yourself ) simply left. So, I don't blame you for leaving.

I can understand the reasons for not bringing your daughter to a game for the reasons mentioned above...I just hope that you start watching games on a regular basis ( of course, on Fox Sports Indiana ) in the comfort of your home just to see how different the Team is. My guess is that you understand enough about Basketball to appreciate what this Team is about now to see that they are worth following and ultimately going out to a game at some point with your daughter ( maybe a Friday or Saturday game when there will likely be more fans in the stands ).

graphic-er
02-23-2013, 01:59 AM
On the first part, I'm not entirely complaining about the quality of the product at BLF. I don't care for the games and gimmicks that I believe cheapen the experience (for me), but I don't really mean to insinuate that is keeping me away. All I'm trying to say is that the current lack of a crowd makes it less fun. I realize the irony in what I'm saying, but that doesn't change the fact that the games I took my daughter to last year where just OK when compared to other options. This will correct itself as more people come to games and I will likely take my daughter back once the crowds are back to give her a better experience. I just have little interest it again taking her to games where there is no one sitting near us in the balcony as was the case at the previous games.

On the second part, I'm not at all trying to be punitive with the team. I didn't purposely leave. I started taking games off because I absolutely hated the JOB led teams. I was getting angry to the point it wasn't worth it. I didn't completely leave and I didn't intend to be where I am now. However, from there started a slow (unintentional) slide away from the team and the league (separate issues). I'm not an uninformed fan. I know every player on the team, their game, and that they all have been good citizens (which has never been a real concern of mine anyways). I like the team. I don't like the league. And I've lost the habit of following them religiously. Maybe it's the definition of "bandwagon", but IMO a big factor in attendance is that a large portion of the fans lost that habit for various reasons. Those reasons may be gone, but its hard to get back in the habit of watching 75+ games when you've filled that void with something else. Not only did my habits change, but so did my families. Currently my dislike of the league is my big issue. It's hard for me to fully invest in the team when I don't like the league.

This team flies in the face of what you think is wrong with the league, so I don't know what your issue is. But it sounds like you won't bother until the sheeple reaffirm Pacer games as a worthy good time. Also people don't' lose habits. They quit them. They also do not find habits, they start them.

Nuntius
02-23-2013, 02:00 AM
Whatever. If you can't understand that the attitudes reflected in this thread would likely have a negative impact if expressed to the people on the fence about going to games then there is no reason to discuss it further.

Those attitudes that you speak of are not targeted to the people who are on the fence about going to games.

They are targeted to the people that are not interested to even watch a game, hate the team and bash them for what happened 8 years ago.

rm1369
02-23-2013, 02:13 AM
This team flies in the face of what you think is wrong with the league, so I don't know what your issue is. But it sounds like you won't bother until the sheeple reaffirm Pacer games as a worthy good time. Also people don't' lose habits. They quit them. They also do not find habits, they start them.

They've won a title?

The rest I don't give a **** about. Be the grammar police I don't give a ****. You don't like my opinion then quit reading it. I'm done dealing with someone that obviously just wants to be an ***.