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View Full Version : Bobby Knight - Ron Artest - Question?



Los Angeles
12-20-2004, 05:34 PM
I know many of you are long time IU fans as well as Pacers fans.

Both Knight and Artest are love-him-or-hate-him Indiana basketball guys prone to odd behavior and/or violent episodes.

Is anyone here a fan of one and not the other? Did/does anyone hate (or love) them both for similar reasons? Did you stick up for both before the lids blew off? Did you want them both gone? Is my comparison unfair to either?

Me? - I hated Bob Knight from the moment he cut in line in front of me at the Marsh salad bar. :mad: THAT WAS IT! :mad:

Ronnie - I learned to love him last season only to see it wash away so quickly between the ECF and this year.

I could handle odd behavior from both until it got personal - so my release valve is probably right in the middle.

ChicagoJ
12-20-2004, 05:57 PM
That's an interesting question. I view a coach, and in particular a college coach, much differently than a professional player. So I don't know if this analysis is useful or not but here it is...

With Bobby, I didn't really care what the media or John Q. Public thought of him. I cared about what his players, and ex-players, thought of him. As a coach. As a mentor. As someone who helped prepare them for the challenges of life. For all the stupid, embarassing, offensive things Bobby did, and there were plenty, I can't think of a single one that violated the spirit of the team. It was mostly Bobby's inability to deal with people whom he viewed to be intellectually inferior.

To the guys inside that lockerroom, whom Bobby was hired to guide and lead, a very large percentage of the things that got the media and John Q. Public up in a tizzy were absolutely 100% irrelevant. Sure, he was embarassing to the university at times.

When he lost me (and I wasn't a big fan of Bobby's post-Bailey) was when the players no longer respected him. And sure, there were always a few guys that needed to transfer - Bobby's system wasn't for everyone - but there's nothing wrong with that. Dane Fife might be my all-time favorite college player for all those reasons. He knew exactly what he was getting into, and he wanted to face the challenge head-on... I'm not sure I've even watched a college game since Dane graduated.

If I were good enough to play D-I basketball, I would've picked IU/ Knight. But hey, I'm a coach's son and for a while, some people thought Jay's_Dad@Section204 even looked and acted somewhat like Bob Knight, with the plaid sportcoat, gray hair and all, so take that with a grain of salt...

I'm not a Knight apologist - I can't or won't defend many of the bizarre things he's done. But I think for the student-athletes tough enough to play for him and survive for four seasons, that is ultimately an invaluable experience.

But if the things we've observed or heard about Ron are true: how disruptive he is to the team, his selfishness, the distractions he brings, the power struggles with coaches and management, his inability to control himself when its crucial for him to control himself...

BigMac
12-20-2004, 07:06 PM
When he lost me (and I wasn't a big fan of Bobby's post-Bailey) was when the players no longer respected him. And sure, there were always a few guys that needed to transfer - Bobby's system wasn't for everyone - but there's nothing wrong with that. Dane Fife might be my all-time favorite college player for all those reasons. He knew exactly what he was getting into, and he wanted to face the challenge head-on... I'm not sure I've even watched a college game since Dane graduated.


The player's started to lose respect for him when Assistant Coaches such as the one who is the current head coach at that very same university would undermine him and degrade him behind his back-which I only blame Coach Knight for because he kept those people as assistant coach's way too long. The assistant coach's #1 job in Coach Knight's system is to be a buffer between him and the players, and promote unity from gaining mental toughness from the psychological ploys Knight would administer. The assistant coach's job is to be accessable to the players and be there to ***** to the assistant coach about the head coach or what is being done and to empathize with the player but not to go against what Coach Knight was doing. Some assistant coach's wanted to be the player's best friend without telling him the truth about what Coach Knight was doing (or actually speak against him) and why he was doing it. But to some coaches, yes, I am talking about you know who, took that as an opportunity to agree with the player's *****ing and continue to pile on with the player's problems by agreeing with them and adding their two cents worth against the head coach. Not that I know that that was done or anything (even though I do) ;). Knight had his assistant coach's, led by the current head coach, who actually undermined what he was doing-not that I agreed or agree with all of it but you cannot argue with the results-results that were gained when he had assistants working within the system and not against.

On Artest, I'm not a huge fan but he has always been very pleasant in person even to go as far as to offer to get me tix to any games if I wanted to go. I'm sure he's like that with everyone (except Detroit fans :)). My not being a huge fan is because I am not really always happy about his shot selection-something I consider close to the heart from watching so many IU games when Knight was the coach. But I do like him and I notice how he is working on his personal short comings and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt-especially because he's a Pacer!

Kegboy
12-20-2004, 07:44 PM
Well, I don't like Knight, but I went to Purdue, so that's self-explanatory.

I saw a Knight interview a week or two ago, and the question came up about confronting fans. He said he'd only talked back to fans twice in his whole career. I said, "Funny, who would have thought the only two times he talked back to fans just happened to be the only two games I saw him in person at Mackey." :sarcasm:

And, just because I can't resist, Ron Artest never told a national television audience that if a woman's being raped, she should just sit back and enjoy it.

:zip: :peak:

stipo
12-20-2004, 08:25 PM
My experience has been that the ones who love Knight, hate Artest, and visa-versa. There are so many societal factors at work here. They are both out of control maniacs at times, but I think that the big difference for Knight is he has a background of winning. Winning makes people look the other way when Knight does something stupid, Ron doesn't have that advantage.

BigMac
12-20-2004, 08:54 PM
Well, I don't like Knight, but I went to Purdue, so that's self-explanatory.

I saw a Knight interview a week or two ago, and the question came up about confronting fans. He said he'd only talked back to fans twice in his whole career. I said, "Funny, who would have thought the only two times he talked back to fans just happened to be the only two games I saw him in person at Mackey." :sarcasm:

And, just because I can't resist, Ron Artest never told a national television audience that if a woman's being raped, she should just sit back and enjoy it.

:zip: :peak:

I saw that same interview and I came away thinking that he was stating something else. Now, I don't know what was said in Lafayette but I can tell you that Coach Knight was always harrassed whenever he was on the bench and more than once had fun with the hecklers and was not confrontational. For example, a Michigna State heckler was so intense that Knight got to like him and would have conversations (friendly banter) with the alumnus and even got to the point that they became very good friends. Now, when he says he only talked back two times to fans, I took that as meaning that he only was equally abusive back to fans on two occasions. He had fun with a lot of fans (at their expense) tongue in cheek and I would hope that this is what you heard, if you indeed hear what was being said. But the fact that you can write on this message board as a Purdue alum is a miracle in itself ;). I had to throw that one in because it's been so long since I have traded barbs with a Purdue fan-and btw, I really appreciate Gene Keady though I don't like him.

And on the rape thing, I will educate you a bit on this: After he said it, he said, 'Wait, I didn't mean that. You cannot air that. That statement is wrong." To which Connie Cheung said that she agreed and that would not air-and her saying that is also on tape, something that she had edited out herself and most people do not realize so everyone reading this should now understand that. While it was wrong to say, Knight immediately recognized that he said something that he did not mean, and the reporter edited it in-just to get her ratings up. You know Cheung, the journalistic piece of crap that got Newt Gingrich's mother to say that she thought that Bill Clinton's wife was a 'real *****', even though that conversation was "just between us girls". She has caused so much harm by what she has done and cost her a lot of money because her journalistic integrity has been shot. She cannot even do network news and that is really low since we all know how Dan Rather was able to get away with making statements that something was fact which in turn was not-and now he is retiring because even he has no journalistic integrity. Funny how CBS was the network that employed both of them? Probably not.

Bball
12-20-2004, 09:11 PM
I saw that same interview and I came away thinking that he was stating something else. Now, I don't know what was said in Lafayette but I can tell you that Coach Knight was always harrassed whenever he was on the bench and more than once had fun with the hecklers and was not confrontational. For example, a Michigna State heckler was so intense that Knight got to like him and would have conversations (friendly banter) with the alumnus and even got to the point that they became very good friends. Now, when he says he only talked back two times to fans, I took that as meaning that he only was equally abusive back to fans on two occasions. He had fun with a lot of fans (at their expense) tongue in cheek and I would hope that this is what you heard, if you indeed hear what was being said. But the fact that you can write on this message board as a Purdue alum is a miracle in itself ;). I had to throw that one in because it's been so long since I have traded barbs with a Purdue fan-and btw, I really appreciate Gene Keady though I don't like him.

And on the rape thing, I will educate you a bit on this: After he said it, he said, 'Wait, I didn't mean that. You cannot air that. That statement is wrong." To which Connie Cheung said that she agreed and that would not air-and her saying that is also on tape, something that she had edited out herself and most people do not realize so everyone reading this should now understand that. While it was wrong to say, Knight immediately recognized that he said something that he did not mean, and the reporter edited it in-just to get her ratings up. .

I'll let you expound further because I have forgotten the details, but it needs to be said that Knight was making an analogy to something. He wasn't saying that a raped woman should enjoy it (which is what this thread seems to be saying but I am sure isn't what is meant).

I don't remember what Knight was speaking to in the first place but I'm certain his point had nothing to do with rape. He simply drew a bad analogy... and has been said... realized the inappropriateness immediately and asked that to be stricken.

...I grew tired of Knight toward the end of the Bailey years. The 50 point (plus I think) loss at Minnesota (and Knight's actions) was probably the defining moment of me going to the other side of the fence.

-Bball

3Ball
12-20-2004, 10:48 PM
I never got the Knight Mystique, even though I went to IU. Maybe I'm too young to really remember the glory days, but he just seemed like a blowhard living off of past glories. I know his teams had good graduation rates, but it seemed like his main message to his kids was, "Submit. Submit to whoever is loudest. Not to the TEAM. But to ME." I never liked it, but, of course, his biggest failing was that he stopped winning.

I agree that I had just started to think that Artest had got it last year. Ugh, what to make of this guy.

Coach
12-21-2004, 08:38 AM
The analogy that Knight was making in that interview was about officiating. He was trying to make this point. 'If the officiating is screwing you, you need to realize that as a coach there is nothing you can do about it. So you might as well sit back and enjoy the game.' That is not a direct quote but I remember him stating that in another piece. The only problem with that is that he never would sit back. He would always give them a piece of his mind. :D

stipo
12-21-2004, 09:32 AM
Most people in Indiana thought Bob Knight was the greatest coach ever. The way he handled his teams became the pattern that many high school coaches copied, the whole "army mentality", much to my chagrin. Sometimes this IS a good method for teaching if it's handled right, but it contrasts with a Hoosier native who WAS the best, at least record wise -- John Wooden.

I think Coach Woodens' players would tell you that they grew alot as young men under his tutelage, AND they won, without being coached by a raving lunatic. Bob Knight pales in comparison in coaching AND in just as a human being, IMHO.

That being said, I think it have been very interesting if Knight would have coached Artest. I think it would have made Ron a better person, and perhaps driven Knight out of coaching shortly after (which would be a win-win situation for me!). And, when Ron got to the pros and still acted nutty on occasion, the criticisms would be much softer and quieter because of who his former coach was. I can hear many fans now --"Go get'em Ron, Coach wouldn't have taken that B.S. either!" and "He's just doing what Bob taught him!" :laugh:

ChicagoJ
12-21-2004, 10:01 AM
Not sure that explanation was right - Knight was describing how he handled stress. And if you throw out the offense phrase at the beginning of his response, the "relax and and enjoy it" comment was the answer he was trying to give and it makes sense in the context of the entire interview. So he chose to discuss a very stressful situation - it was a poor analogy and as the words came out Knight's mouth, he realized the analogy was a poor choice and he asked to retract the words.

But in Connie Chung revisionist history, she was called to Bloomington because Knight wanted to tell all the women in the world that if they are ra...

Again, I'm not an apologist for Knight.

But this got me to thinking something once again. The college game is supposed to be about the development of young men and women into student-athletes and adults. I'd happily watch NAIA or Div. II/ III games but I really don't like what CBS, Nike, and other sources of big $$$ have done to college athletics.

stipo
12-21-2004, 12:02 PM
I'm interested in seeing a steel cage match between Knight and Artest. The Genital, er, General would be given a folding chair as a weapon to make up for their age difference. Someones missing a really good pay-per-view opportunity.:chuckle:

beast23
12-21-2004, 12:02 PM
I don't recall the setup, but do remember Knight's quote very well. It was
"... if rape is inevitable, you may as well sit back and enjoy it." I think Knight was making an analogy and he was also trying to be humorously cute, but immediately recognized that he had crossed a boundary.

Connie Chung has done a lot of good work through the years, particularly with getting interviewees to say things they really didn't want to reveal. I think Chung has a knack for putting herself on another person's level, thereby giving the interviewee a false sense of comfort.

Knight was granted full control over the content of what was to be aired as his condition for participating in the interview. During the interview, Connie Chung reportedly talked with Knight as Knight would talk to anyone else.... dropping the "F-bomb" and other profanities quite liberally.

Knight was furious over the interview because of the rape reference and because of the number of quotes that required beeping that were used. I believe he even filed a lawsuit for breach of contract since CBS aired things that he asked to be omitted. I believe the lawsuit was later dropped since the damage was already done and all the lawsuit would do is continue to draw attention to the interview.

Los Angeles
12-21-2004, 12:19 PM
Ron and Bobby are both sports celebrities, and unfortunately, when you are a celebrity everything you say and do is put up to scrutiny. The could learn alot from Tom Cruise - just smile, laugh, look good and KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT IN PUBLIC!

Unfortunately, you can never take anything you say back, especially when reporters are always wanting an inside scoop. Most of us are fortunate enough that when we say or do something stupid it doesn't make the news.

I find it interesting that some folks I've discussed this with (not just in this thread) have given Ron a pass because he's "such a nice guy" off the court, but then don't really recognize that Knight was NOT a nice guy off the court. Knight was fairly consistently a big a-hole 24/7. Many people loved him for his unapologetic approach to coaching. Suddenly the nice guy defense seems full of holes.

A friend of mine claims that Knight gets a pass from him because he was always about the "team", and Ron doesn't because his behavior betrays the team.

indygeezer
12-21-2004, 12:23 PM
But this got me to thinking something once again. The college game is supposed to be about the development of young men and women into student-athletes and adults. I'd happily watch NAIA or Div. II/ III games but I really don't like what CBS, Nike, and other sources of big $$$ have done to college athletics.

I like going to Butler games. :D


Chung is married to Maury Povitch...the first of the TV Tabloid Journalists IMO.


I know others have tried to draw out Hoosiers as being supporters of BOTH Bobby and Ronnie, and I guess I can see why. I was a supporter of BK but then before he ever came along I was used to that type of coaching. Heck, my Jr High coach took his belt off and whipped a player at halftime of one of our games. Yes, I saw it happen, I was on the team. So his behavior didn't seem so extraordinary to me. I'm surprized he has lasted as long as he has. He has had to adapt alot to these pampered non-coachables that go to college today.
As for Ron, I really really wish he could make it in Indiana. He is just such a talent. He is EXACTLY the type player anyone who grew up on "Hoosier Hysteria" would appreciate. 110% effort at each end of the court. But he needs his medication and until he is willing to take it....

Los Angeles
12-21-2004, 01:51 PM
If a child of mine was EVER touched by a coach in that way, either he would end up in prison or I would. I think times have changed for the better.

It was obvious to me that (for whatever reason) Bobby Knight's overbearing intimidation methods stopped working on his players, and the only thing he could come up with was to turn up the volume, not turn it down. The footage of the Reed choke nearly made me lose my lunch. That kid looked like a boxer on the court, and I sometimes wondered if all those black eyes came from game play.

Did any Indiana folks dislike BOTH Artest and Knight?

indygeezer
12-21-2004, 02:20 PM
If a child of mine was EVER touched by a coach in that way, either he would end up in prison or I would. I think times have changed for the better.

It was obvious to me that (for whatever reason) Bobby Knight's overbearing intimidation methods stopped working on his players, and the only thing he could come up with was to turn up the volume, not turn it down. The footage of the Reed choke nearly made me lose my lunch. That kid looked like a boxer on the court, and I sometimes wondered if all those black eyes came from game play.

Did any Indiana folks dislike BOTH Artest and Knight?


I was in Jr. High about 45 years ago...and my father whipped alot harder than that coach did. And there was no appeal to police or courts back then. Oh, and if you got a whuppin at school...you got one at home....afterwards they MIGHT ask what you had done to deserve whipping at school. But we didn't talk back to teachers, parents, coaches or police back then either.
NOW SEE WHAT YOU WENT AND DID!!! YOU GOT ME STARTED!!!

Hicks
12-21-2004, 02:22 PM
Geezer, it's stories that that make me GLAD things have changed. I hate how kids/their parents can and do abuse it today (teacher touches kid's arm, kid doesn't like teacher, kid cries, screams acts like they've been shot, teacher gets grilled for it), but I prefer that to kids being beaten.

*steps off soapbox*

indygeezer
12-21-2004, 02:30 PM
Geezer, it's stories that that make me GLAD things have changed. I hate how kids/their parents can and do abuse it today (teacher touches kid's arm, kid doesn't like teacher, kid cries, screams acts like they've been shot, teacher gets grilled for it), but I prefer that to kids being beaten.

*steps off soapbox*

There is a difference between "beaten" and spanked. I've never seen a kid beaten at school except by a schooyard bully. The belt by the coach was excessive true, but nobody went yelling to the cops/newpapers either. It was handled internally and effectively.

Hicks
12-21-2004, 02:34 PM
I guess I consider hard whippings a beating anymore. :shrug: I see the difference in what you're saying though.

indygeezer
12-21-2004, 02:36 PM
Get back on topic or the FA will be moving this to the Politics board. :laugh:

Hicks
12-21-2004, 02:39 PM
You mean, like, me? ;) :D

Bobby Knight. Well, I grew up knowing him as "famous IU coach, won some titles, good coach, and threw a chair and screamed a lot". I've learned more of him now, and I feel about the same way, but I think he's a loud-mouthed bully and don't think of him that often. Fun to watch talk though.

Los Angeles
12-21-2004, 02:50 PM
I was in Jr. High about 45 years ago...and my father whipped alot harder than that coach did. And there was no appeal to police or courts back then. Oh, and if you got a whuppin at school...you got one at home....afterwards they MIGHT ask what you had done to deserve whipping at school. But we didn't talk back to teachers, parents, coaches or police back then either.
NOW SEE WHAT YOU WENT AND DID!!! YOU GOT ME STARTED!!!
:)

I like it when folks don't hold back. I guess that's why I post here.

If this were back then, would Ron be the one that deserves a beating? Or coach Knight?

An inability to relate to children is no reason to beat them down. Children talk back today, and are looking for a response. "Because i said so" used to be enough, because it came with threat of a belt. I like the challenges modern kids bring, because they make me really think about my decisions.

Dealing with kids, and people in general for that matter, you have to be more sly and manipulative, make them think your idea is really their idea. It's tricky and not for the short-tempered.

If you can't out smart people, out beating them only makes them hate you, not respect you.

Los Angeles
12-21-2004, 02:54 PM
BTW - what happened to the kid in your story? Did the kid become a better player or better person? Or did the kid drop out of basketball for good, missing out on all the things he could have learned from being on the team? Something in between?

indygeezer
12-21-2004, 03:02 PM
:)

I like it when folks don't hold back. I guess that's why I post here.

If this were back then, would Ron be the one that deserves a beating? Or coach Knight?

An inability to relate to children is no reason to beat them down. Children talk back today, and are looking for a response. "Because i said so" used to be enough, because it came with threat of a belt. I like the challenges modern kids bring, because they make me really think about my decisions.

Dealing with kids, and people in general for that matter, you have to be more sly and manipulative, make them think your idea is really their idea. It's tricky and not for the short-tempered.

If you can't out smart people, out beating them only makes them hate you, not respect you.

OH oh....
I can understand to a degree what you are saying but (isn't there always a "but"?) your method also sets the example where the kid learns to sneak around and manipulate others rather than respect rule and accept the consequences of their actions. At some time they may be shocked to learn that there are consequences and they won't understand why they can't get out of paying the price forwhat they did.
Manipulating them teaches kids that to get their way they must manipulate others rather than deal honestly and fairly. Now your arguement is that beating them teaches them to lash out and use force. But not if they learn to respect others first. And that was part of my upbringing. Respect others and their rights or there is a penalty to pay and sometimes that penalty is painful.

indygeezer
12-21-2004, 03:12 PM
BTW - what happened to the kid in your story? Did the kid become a better player or better person? Or did the kid drop out of basketball for good, missing out on all the things he could have learned from being on the team? Something in between?

He played the remained of his eligibility but because he had been held back in early grades, he was over the age limit his senior year. He went on to be a car salesman, embezzeled money from the dealership and spent time in prison. The last I heard he OWNED a dealership in Arizona.

Honest

Los Angeles
12-21-2004, 03:32 PM
I think we're seeing eye to eye. I also very much believe in structure and discipline, as it's clear you do. I was wrong to use the word "manipulation" because that suggests lying is appropriate. I think "reasoning" - turning the question back on them and putting them on the spot - is a better word. Can't explain why you need an extra 5 bucks? No money from me. You've come up with a good reason? Here's your 5 bucks, but i'll be asking you all about it later. Later: Can't prove you used the 5 bucks the way you said you would? Got caught in a lie? Enjoy all that sweeping and mopping. The Garage could use some help too. Plus, you just gave me more ammo for next time.

Talking it through KEEPS kids honest, it doesn't encourage them to lie as long as you are diligent. I should add that this is only one of the weapons in your arsenal - not the only one. Discipline is a good thing. Push ups. Running laps. Towel duty. 100 free throws. These are all physical forms of discipline used by our coaches, and don't require one swat.

Sometimes, especially when they are young, I consider laying hands on kids an absolute last resort - but a little goes a long way. And only if we are talking about your own kids.

I wouldn't DARE touch another person's child. Obviously, your coach felt that it was OK.

Los Angeles
12-21-2004, 03:35 PM
He played the remained of his eligibility but because he had been held back in early grades, he was over the age limit his senior year. He went on to be a car salesman, embezzeled money from the dealership and spent time in prison. The last I heard he OWNED a dealership in Arizona.

Honest

Wow - just wow.

indygeezer
12-21-2004, 04:04 PM
Now see, we have exact same methods of disciplin. I'm a firm believer that windows need washing just every few days, and there is always a garage to clean, or a stairway to vacuum. Don't like it? Just say so because we've got a really messy house and additional chores can be assigned!!
Geezer Jr. and Geezerette can count on one hand the number of times I've applied corporal punishment to either. {{Unfortunately my oldest two cannot say the same They are nearly 40 and I was brutal when they were young}}. Oh, the younger ones have also discovered that even mom and dad can assign term papers to write. :censored: And they get graded (Mrs. G being a teacher). But I do not condemn a parent who uses an open hand swat to the bottom at the appropriate time. Sometimes other means just do not have the needed impact.

A few years ago I was at Jr. Cub Scout meeting. 50-60 boys and their parents in attendance. During the break a scuffel occurred and two boys ganged up on a smaller one. They knocked him down and were punching on him and started to kick him. I came up behind hind the two, grabbed em by the shirt collar and lifted them up off their feet. Face to face I yelled at em...WE DON'T DO THAT SORT OF STUFF AROUND HERE....I had never seen the boys before in my life. But I soon found out that their parents had seen what I did. They were part of the group that asked me to be the Cub Leader the next year. (NO THANKS I DID THAT WITH THE OLDEST TWO)

Los Angeles
12-21-2004, 04:23 PM
Good stories. Thanks. :)