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Unclebuck
02-21-2013, 08:35 AM
I don't think the point being made here: that Indianapolis supported the Pacers in the past so that proves we are not racist - I don't believe that is a valid point. Afterall we are only talking about around 4,000 fewer people per game compared to the 2000 season. I am sure there are some people who have never been fans of the NBA and the pacers because of race - that is true today, true in 2000 and true in 1990. So it is a factor, one factor of many - at least a few dozen factors as to why attendance is down.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130220/SPORTS15/302200099/Bob-Kravitz-Pacers-attendance-woes-not-tied-racism (http://www.indystar.com/article/20130220/SPORTS15/302200099/Bob-Kravitz-Pacers-attendance-woes-not-tied-racism)

This was in 1999-2000, back before Indianapolis became a racist town. The Indiana Pacers, playing their first season at Conseco Fieldhouse, sold out every game.

This was in 2004-05, the season of The Brawl, but still well before Indy turned virulently racist. The Pacers averaged 16,994 fans per game and had more than 13,000 full season ticket holders or season-ticket-holder equivalents.

This was in 2008, before Indy’s latent, simmering racism reared its ugly head. The city, and the state, helped elect Barack Obama to the presidency of the United States, the first time Indiana had gone for a Democratic presidential nominee in decades.

Since then, we’ve become a bunch of hood-wearing, cross-burning racists who simply won’t show up to Pacers games because we don’t like black people. Or so it has been suggested by Colin Cowherd, an ESPN talk-show host who is generally the smartest guy out there and has always been extraordinarily kind to me. (So I’ll repay his kindness by trashing his argument. Shows you what kind of guy I am.)

You’re holding an organization to a standard that happens because of race,” he said the other day on his nationally broadcast show. “There’s no other explanation why people don’t go to Pacers games.”

Well, actually, there is.

There are a couple of reasons.

Here’s the big one: The NBA season-ticket-buying culture in Indianapolis is dead, at least for now. That has nothing to do with race. That has everything to do with six years of really bad basketball.

Here’s what Colin doesn’t quite get as he watches from afar in Bristol, Conn. After that 2004-05 season, pro basketball died here in Indianapolis. Ron Artest went crazy.

Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley and others got in trouble. The team made the playoffs, but it was an unlikable team, and the Pacers were forced to trade off all those players in order to change the culture.

The result was five or six years of nice guys who couldn’t play a lick of basketball.
After having the 17th best attendance in the league in 2004-05 — and keep in mind, with the fieldhouse’s capacity, the best the Pacers can be is 13th — they dipped to 24th in 2005-06, then fell to 30th two years later, losing more than 3,000 fans per game. And it has remained near the bottom since.

The bottom line is, you don’t rebuild a season ticket buying culture after just one year of reaching the second round of the playoffs. Especially not in a small, relatively soft market, a market hit hard by the bad economy, a market that has seen the Pacers lose corporate sales from the likes of Dick’s Sporting Goods, Marsh and others.

While the numbers are still paltry — 5,000 full season ticket holders and 7,000 full season equivalents — the fact is, the Pacers have increased attendance by about 1,000 a game, a 7.4 percent increase. Fans are not Pavlov’s dogs. They don’t react overnight. For now, they realize they don’t have to purchase a season ticket. Instead, they can get a deeply discounted ticket to any game they select, and do so at the last second.

All of this frustrates the Pacers to no end, and they have meeting after meeting trying to figure out how to fill the house. But it’s going to take time. It’s going to take continued winning. It’s going to take the kinds of solid citizens who currently populate the Pacers’ happy locker room.

Maybe I don’t believe race enters into the Pacers attendance equation because I don’t want to believe it. It’s entirely possible I am seeing the world through my preferred post-racial prism, that I am being protective and provincial.

But I don’t believe that a few poll responses on an unscientific WTHR poll — a few mind-numbing responses referring to a great group of guys as “thugs” and “criminals” — is somehow representative of the civic mind-set.

Where does race factor into attendance? It doesn’t. This team drew great crowds when Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson and Antonio and Dale Davis were battling the Knicks and the Bulls. The team drew well in the early 2000s with Jermaine O’Neal and Co., and the big crowds continued to support the Pacers even after all hell broke loose in Auburn Hills, Mich., on Nov. 19, 2004.

Atlanta, another city with a pretty good team, doesn’t draw for the Hawks. And that is a much more populated city with a huge black population. Is it race there, too? Do they hate Zaza Pachulia?

Like the Pacers themselves, I would agree the team should be better supported. This is a very good team with a bunch of likable, approachable young players. They play the kind of basketball Hoosiers profess to love, a democratic style that features teamwork and selflessness.

I also understand it takes time, a couple of years, to rebuild a season-ticket-buying culture.

I would ask Colin to do this: Three years from now, if the Pacers are still a contender — and they should be — check back in with us. Let’s look at the attendance then. Let’s see if the Pacers are filling the house, or at least coming close.

If they aren’t, well, then I’ll entertain the argument. Until then, no sell.

The bottom line is, you don’t rebuild a season ticket buying culture after just one year of reaching the second round of the playoffs. Especially not in a small, relatively soft market, a market hit hard by the bad economy, a market that has seen the Pacers lose corporate sales from the likes of Dick’s Sporting Goods, Marsh and others.

While the numbers are still paltry — 5,000 full season ticket holders and 7,000 full season equivalents — the fact is, the Pacers have increased attendance by about 1,000 a game, a 7.4 percent increase. Fans are not Pavlov’s dogs. They don’t react overnight. For now, they realize they don’t have to purchase a season ticket. Instead, they can get a deeply discounted ticket to any game they select, and do so at the last second.

All of this frustrates the Pacers to no end, and they have meeting after meeting trying to figure out how to fill the house. But it’s going to take time. It’s going to take continued winning. It’s going to take the kinds of solid citizens who currently populate the Pacers’ happy locker room.

Maybe I don’t believe race enters into the Pacers attendance equation because I don’t want to believe it. It’s entirely possible I am seeing the world through my preferred post-racial prism, that I am being protective and provincial.

But I don’t believe that a few poll responses on an unscientific WTHR poll — a few mind-numbing responses referring to a great group of guys as “thugs” and “criminals” — is somehow representative of the civic mind-set.

Where does race factor into attendance? It doesn’t. This team drew great crowds when Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson and Antonio and Dale Davis were battling the Knicks and the Bulls. The team drew well in the early 2000s with Jermaine O’Neal and Co., and the big crowds continued to support the Pacers even after all hell broke loose in Auburn Hills, Mich., on Nov. 19, 2004.

Atlanta, another city with a pretty good team, doesn’t draw for the Hawks. And that is a much more populated city with a huge black population. Is it race there, too? Do they hate Zaza Pachulia?

Like the Pacers themselves, I would agree the team should be better supported. This is a very good team with a bunch of likable, approachable young players. They play the kind of basketball Hoosiers profess to love, a democratic style that features teamwork and selflessness.

I also understand it takes time, a couple of years, to rebuild a season-ticket-buying culture.

I would ask Colin to do this: Three years from now, if the Pacers are still a contender — and they should be — check back in with us. Let’s look at the attendance then. Let’s see if the Pacers are filling the house, or at least coming close.

If they aren’t, well, then I’ll entertain the argument. Until then, no sell.

Sollozzo
02-21-2013, 08:48 AM
I thought that was a petty good column.

Also, I feel that people have this image of Indiana that the place is nothing but a bunch of hayseed hicks. However, 25% of the Indianapolis population is African American. There are literally hundreds of thousands of African Americans in the community who can also go to games.

Mackey_Rose
02-21-2013, 08:50 AM
Well said, Bob.

King Tuts Tomb
02-21-2013, 08:59 AM
I've been through this argument too many times on PD so I'll just say I disagree with Kravitz and leave it at that.

graphic-er
02-21-2013, 09:04 AM
I thought that was a petty good column.

Also, I feel that people have this image of Indiana that the place is nothing but a bunch of hayseed hicks. However, 25% of the Indianapolis population is African American. There are literally hundreds of thousands of African Americans in the community who can also go to games.

This is just an honest observation from my attending 21 games, 33 games, and 21 games over the past 3 years, but Young African American males do not seem like they enjoy going to Pacer games. They will sit there with the most bored look on their face like they could care less what happens. Even when there is a tremendous play, no reaction. Even during crunch time, no enthusiasm. Even when Grady tries to jolt the crowd to their feet, nope just gonna sit here. I this observation doesn't reflect all who go to games, but its just what I've noticed alot of the time.

naptownmenace
02-21-2013, 09:16 AM
I came in here expecting to hate this article. I'm very surprised to find that I agreed with pretty much everything Kravitz said. The part about the Atlanta Hawks was an excellent point. I'm African-American... if anyone was wondering.


I thought that was a petty good column.

Also, I feel that people have this image of Indiana that the place is nothing but a bunch of hayseed hicks. However, 25% of the Indianapolis population is African American. There are literally hundreds of thousands of African Americans in the community who can also go to games.

That's a good point. The few times I get to go to the games during the regular season, I don't see very many blacks there. Now during the playoffs, the attendance is more diverse but I noticed a lot of them were there to root for Lebron, DWade, and the Heatles last year and the Bulls the year before. The black community doesn't really seem to support the Pacers as much as they did back during the 2001-04 seasons. Maybe the black community would be a good marketing opportunity for the Pacers.

Slick Pinkham
02-21-2013, 10:01 AM
The article is good, but Kravitz, for effect, really exaggerates what Colin Cowherd said. I heard most of the radio program that day.

Cowherd's point was that there is a nationwide "teflon" appeal of the NFL that the NBA simply does not share. There are probably many reasons for the phenomenon, wherein fans wildly root for the jersey in the NFL and don't care much at all about the character of the person wearing the jersey, while in the NBA the arrest records and attitudes of the players greatly affect fans level of attachment to the team. One difference is that the NBA markets the players while the NFL doesn't do it that so much.

Another factor is that in the NBA the players are visible, you sit closer, you see their tattoos, you hear the hip-hop music culture that has been integrated into the arena experience, and maybe just since there are fewer players you seem to care more about their egos, attitudes, and vices. It's not hard for Cowherd or anyone to correlate ingrained negative images of NBA players with racial stereotyping. Cowherd went way too far in saying that it is maybe the main cause for NBA's non-telfon coating, compared to the NFL's telfon layer, and specifically indicating that Indiana was his prime example. As Pacers fans we were disgusted when they let us down (ala the brawl, arrests, laziness) and some people in our fan base said they'd never support those thugs again. Some people in many other fan bases would say the same thing. What's odd is that it sticks 8-9 years later, for a select few people anyway, with those players being long gone. In the NFL it wouldn't stick a week, unless your misdeeds reach a Michael Vick level. Even then, redemption is a couple of good games away.

I think that there is a cultural bias for many that leads to lesser fan support for NBA players relative to NFL players in certain demographic groups, but I don't think it's greater than it has been at any time in the past, or specific to the Pacers in any way. I also think that it is a far less important factor than Cowherd thinks it is. I also don't interpret Cowherd's radio remarks (I don't follow twitter) as indicating that he thinks the phenomenon is at all unique to Pacer fans.

owl
02-21-2013, 10:25 AM
At the Pacers best they never lead the league anywhere close in attendance. I have said it before and I will say it again the biggest problem is the Pacers are in a small a market with really tough competition for the entertainment dollar. There will always be the race factor for some people. We live in a fallen and broken world. But that is not the reason why they have not done better.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 10:26 AM
That's why so many people attend IU games. Right Colin Cow?

Slick Pinkham
02-21-2013, 10:40 AM
There is a cultural element to even enthusiastic fandom. If Cody Zeller had the physical appearance as Chris "Birdman" Anderson, there would be less enthusiastic support for him. IU fans would still fill the arena, I think, though. And while a list of most beloved IU players would have Steve Alford, Cody Zeller, and Damon Bailey on it, it most certainly would have Calbert Cheaney, Alan Henderson, Quinn Buckner, Scott May, Isiah Thomas, Landon Turner, and now Victor Olidipo on it as well. Maybe Eric Gordon would be on the most beloved list too, if not for the stench of the Sampson era. The most beloved players played hard, played well, bought into the team concept, showed toughness, worked hard, got better at their craft, and contributed to some level of team success. Has nothing to do with skin color.

The most Pacers players played hard, played well, bought into the team concept, showed toughness, worked hard, got better at their craft, and contributed to some level of team success. They would be Reggie, Mel, Big Mac, Rajah, Paul, Roy, Danny. No difference. Has nothing to do with skin color. The butts somehow don't go into the Pacers seats as eagerly though, following the disappointments of the mid and late-90s. Why is the big question, and likely there isn't just one easy answer or one easy fix. But I think it's fixable.

FlavaDave
02-21-2013, 11:39 AM
There is a difference between being racist towards all black people, and being racist towards certain kind of black person. I heard Jermaine O'Neal being referred to as a "thug" more times than I can count because he had cornrows and tattoos and punched a dude that rushed the court during The Brawl. Meanwhile, Marvin Harrison was adored because he was a "clean cut nice guy", even though he turned out to be a literal murderer.

Now, is this the root of our attendance problems? I have no idea. But you can't sweep the issue under the rug by holding up a few examples of non-prejudiced behavior by the local population.

My guess is that enduring racial bias from the Artest-Jackson era is a factor for a (no pun intended) minority of former customers, but not for a majority of the people who stay at home.

Since86
02-21-2013, 11:42 AM
Oh boy...

ndcoltsnpacers
02-21-2013, 11:49 AM
Come on now, we were an Obama state just 4 years ago.

Pacer Fan
02-21-2013, 12:07 PM
We had more white guys on our team at one point that the tv made fun. The attendance was terrible then. So It's not about race. It's all about paying money for fun entertainment and It's not fun to lose.

mattie
02-21-2013, 12:13 PM
This.


I've been through this argument too many times on PD so I'll just say I disagree with Kravitz and leave it at that.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 12:28 PM
Seriously you folks who think it is about race, do you realize that

1.) The main population base for the Pacers is an urban area that is actually extremely diverse?

2.) There are plenty of well attended basketball games in the state of Indiana that feature folks of all different types and backgrounds.

Look, I know Indiana has a history. I went to Brebeuf and played in a basketball sectional that featured Danville, Crawfordsville, Lebanon, Western Boone....we were the only team that had non-white players and this was in the mid 2000s, so I get it Indiana is still an evolving place.

But blaming the Pacers attendance issues on it? Come on, it doesn't even make sense. You're telling me we can't even find 17,000 non-racists in the state of Indiana with the money to watch a basketball game? It's a completely ridiculous thing to focus on when it comes to the Pacers attendance woes.

I don't know if I stepped over any PD political lines with this post and if I did feel free to delete it, but as someone who has seen both sides of this from my high school days, I just had to say that I find the suggestion that it is really impacting Pacers attendance completely baseless.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 12:31 PM
Folks were just loading up the stands to watch Travis Diener pass the ball to Dunleavy, Troy and Foster weren't they? And I'm pretty sure there were several games where those 4 dudes started.

BillS
02-21-2013, 12:33 PM
Look, I know Indiana has a history. I went to Brebeuf and played in a basketball sectional that featured Danville, Crawfordsville, Lebanon, Western Boone....we were the only team that had non-white players and this was in the mid 2000s, so I get it Indiana is still an evolving place.

Hey, now, we didn't have the luxury of going outside our area to recruit, private-school boy :swordfigh :buddies:


Seriously, while lack of diversity can <i>contribute</i> to ignorance-based racism due to lack of opportunities to get familiar with different races and cultures, I don't think it is always an indicator of systematic racism in and of itself.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 12:36 PM
Hey, now, we didn't have the luxury of going outside our area to recruit, private-school boy :swordfigh :buddies:


Seriously, while lack of diversity can contribute to ignorance-based racism due to lack of opportunities to get familiar with different races and cultures, I don't think it is always an indicator of systematic racism in and of itself.

Haha, I'm just saying it never made sense to have Brebeuf in that sectional. Especially if you know the history between Brebeuf and Lebanon basketball at all.

Danville was ok ;)

Gamble1
02-21-2013, 12:44 PM
Colin Cowherd is just trying to stay relevant and the Pacers are easy pickings. He doesn't care one way or the other if his claims are baseless or not. Why should he care at all about the Pacers and attendance problems?

The Pacers are just an exhibit A for his argument that basketball is less popular than the NFL. Its really pretty pathetic explanation for why one sport trumps the other and the obvious uncontroversial explanation is that the sport is more violent and physical. If anything the rise of other sports, see MMA explains why fans like less technical savy sports like figure skating to say ice hockey or Indycar to NASCAR.

We like violence folks! There is your explanation of why the NFL is teflon compared to the wet paper sack of the NBA.

Sollozzo
02-21-2013, 01:01 PM
Folks were just loading up the stands to watch Travis Diener pass the ball to Dunleavy, Troy and Foster weren't they? And I'm pretty sure there were several games where those 4 dudes started.

Yeah, I made this point a couple weeks ago when the race issue was brought up. In 07-08, we had Murphy, Dunleavy, Diener, and Foster. That was the first full year of Dunleavy and Murphy, and Dun averaged like 19 points that year, which was easily his best as a Pacer. Yet our attendance was a pathetic 12,221 a game, which was the worst of any of the past 13 years. We traded Al Harrington and Stephen Jackson for two highly paid white players who started, and the attendance went DOWN. Gee, that kinda puts a big dent in the whole racism angle, doesn't it.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2008

And as mentioned, Indy's demographics are nothing like the rest of the state. 25% of the Indy population is African American. Hundreds of thousands of African Americans live in this area.

Bill made a good point yesterday. Once you lose a lot of customers in your business, it's hard to regain them. The horrible 2004-2010 stretch ran off a ton of people who found other ways to spend their time and money. They are slowly coming back, but you don't undo six years worth of ill will in just two years, particularly when you don't have a Durant or Lebron. A similar example is the Indy 500. The deplorable 25/8 rule in 1996, which destroyed the chain of excellence that could be traced back to Ray Harroun in 1911, immediately ran off racing fans all over the country. I think the racing at the 500 has been very good over the last couple of years, but the people who were turned off by the horror shows in the mid to late 90's have shown little interest in returning. They moved on.

The attendance will get better though. A big win last night can do nothing but help.

graphic-er
02-21-2013, 01:16 PM
Yeah, I made this point a couple weeks ago when the race issue was brought up. In 07-08, we had Murphy, Dunleavy, Diener, and Foster. That was the first full year of Dunleavy and Murphy, and Dun averaged like 19 points that year, which was easily his best as a Pacer. Yet our attendance was a pathetic 12,221 a game, which was the worst of any of the past 13 years. We traded Al Harrington and Stephen Jackson for two highly paid white players who started, and the attendance went DOWN. Gee, that kinda puts a big dent in the whole racism angle, doesn't it.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2008

And as mentioned, Indy's demographics are nothing like the rest of the state. 25% of the Indy population is African American. Hundreds of thousands of African Americans live in this area.



Then why dont Young Black Men like going to Pacer games? Cause I don't see very many at the games and those that are their act like they are bored out of their mind.

Sollozzo
02-21-2013, 01:18 PM
Then why dont Young Black Men like going to Pacer games? Cause I do see very many at the games and those that are their act like they are bored out of their mind.

I don't know, I'm just saying I think that people from across the country view Indiana as being filled with nothing but hayseed hicks. My point is that there are also hundreds of thousands of African Americans in the community who can go to games. Does someone like Colin Cowherd understand that Indy has a strong African American community?

Heisenberg
02-21-2013, 01:29 PM
Didn't Cowherd's show just come back on in the Indy market? Now you know why he went on his rant.

I do think the "Indy's racist" stuff is getting overblown and he brought up plenty of good points other than that.

mattie
02-21-2013, 01:48 PM
In fairness- I don't think Indiana is unique with this issue. A combination of factors has lead to race being a major issue effecting attendance. I don't want to discuss it further, I just wanted to note that many of us are not making out Indy to be uniquely terrible.


Seriously you folks who think it is about race, do you realize that

1.) The main population base for the Pacers is an urban area that is actually extremely diverse?

2.) There are plenty of well attended basketball games in the state of Indiana that feature folks of all different types and backgrounds.

Look, I know Indiana has a history. I went to Brebeuf and played in a basketball sectional that featured Danville, Crawfordsville, Lebanon, Western Boone....we were the only team that had non-white players and this was in the mid 2000s, so I get it Indiana is still an evolving place.

But blaming the Pacers attendance issues on it? Come on, it doesn't even make sense. You're telling me we can't even find 17,000 non-racists in the state of Indiana with the money to watch a basketball game? It's a completely ridiculous thing to focus on when it comes to the Pacers attendance woes.

I don't know if I stepped over any PD political lines with this post and if I did feel free to delete it, but as someone who has seen both sides of this from my high school days, I just had to say that I find the suggestion that it is really impacting Pacers attendance completely baseless.

mattie
02-21-2013, 01:53 PM
Oh and obviously I and most others understand that is not the ONLY issue. There are many other factors that play into low attendance averages.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 01:54 PM
Wow

eric1516
02-21-2013, 01:57 PM
After reading Kravtiz's article and reading the various opinions that agree or disagree with his statement, I really do think that attendance comes down to a different perception problem. While Kravitz played off a racial perception, and I think that is a small part of it, attendance issues largely revolve around a misunderstanding of who the current group of players are. Of course most of us on PD know the great character strengths of our current team. However, if you watch the local news, read the Indy Star, or search other local outlets you won't hear much about the Pacers. When do you its either a quick gloss of the box score or if they are going to play a large market team.

Pair the lack of local media coverage with the national media coverage that only showcases Miami, OKC, LA, or NY and we have two problems. One, we are constantly compared against them with the "lack of star power." Second, those who are already on the fence with the NBA see those teams and they see a brand of basketball they don't like. I very much believe Indiana is a basketball state and truly loves its hoops. However, the way the NBA plays ball compared to College and HS is vastly different and very much focused on entertainment.

Bottom line: with the emergence of PG as our star, continuing [local] media coverage of our team, and a portrayal of our team as actual basketball and not entertainment, we can bring back the fans. It will just take time and it wont be because we're claiming we are "blue collar gold swagger."

mattie
02-21-2013, 01:59 PM
Wow

Thanks.

Since86
02-21-2013, 02:01 PM
Sports. Where complete strangers call another complete stranger racist, because they don't go to games.

Considering how awful WNBA attendance is, you all must be sexist too. Make sure to punch your mother.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 02:02 PM
Thanks.

The suggestion that race plays a role in attendance becomes even more ridiculous when you extrapolate it to other markets outside of Indianapolis.

dal9
02-21-2013, 02:09 PM
This is the gist of it:



Maybe I don't believe race enters into the Pacers attendance equation because I don't want to believe it




Would there be more attendance if Pacers were 82-0? Or if people had more money? Sure. But race enters into the equation.

Gamble1
02-21-2013, 02:42 PM
Sports. Where complete strangers call another complete stranger racist, because they don't go to games.

Considering how awful WNBA attendance is, you all must be sexist too. Make sure to punch your mother.
That about sums it up right there. I lost what little respect I had for Cowherd and now I won't even bother listening to his show.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 02:45 PM
So many racists calling into the Dakich show right now pouring praise on Paul George and Lance Stephenson and how their confidence is contagious. Damn racists.

Mackey_Rose
02-21-2013, 03:37 PM
If you want to say that racism is still alive, that's perfectly fine. It is.

If you want to say that racism is the reason that the Pacers aren't selling out the Fieldhouse, you can do that too. You'll just sound like an idiot.

Mr_Smith
02-21-2013, 03:43 PM
I love the Zaza Pachulia reference

TheDon
02-21-2013, 03:45 PM
So odd that this is the article we get a day after destroying the knicks...wells and kravitz should be cranking out the biggest homer articles ever at this point and we get some random hot button topic debate...why even try to argue the point when the initial point was retarded anyways?

Heisenberg
02-21-2013, 03:53 PM
So odd that this is the article we get a day after destroying the knicks...wells and kravitz should be cranking out the biggest homer articles ever at this point and we get some random hot button topic debate...why even try to argue the point when the initial point was retarded anyways?

because an article about Indiana being racist gets a helluva lot more views and comments than one about killing the Knicks.

at this point the Pacers need to get out in front of this somehow. they have nothing to do with this discussion but this type of stuff breeds resentment and makes people feel like the actual franchise thinks this way about the state. I mean I don't know what they could do, not like they're going to put out a press release that says "no, we don't think Indiana is racist," but something.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 03:56 PM
Do any of the other franchises with bad attendance have to deal with this sort of dumbass crap?

Since86
02-21-2013, 03:57 PM
Do any of the other franchises with bad attendance have to deal with this sort of dumbass crap?

Only the place were the KKK was born.....

Hicks
02-21-2013, 04:18 PM
Only the place were the KKK was born.....

So the Grizzlies and Hawks, then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#First_KKK

Since86
02-21-2013, 04:22 PM
A thread like this isn't the place for historical accuracies.

Since86
02-21-2013, 04:25 PM
I was referencing Spike Lee's stupidity during Reggie's doc.

Trader Joe
02-21-2013, 04:27 PM
Haven't you guys seen all the KKK members that stand outside the fieldhouse keeping all the law abiding folks from getting into the games? It's a real travesty I tell you. Amazingly enough though they let the players into the game. One of the 7 wonders of the world really.

Midcoasted
02-21-2013, 04:35 PM
I just wish the world would face the fact that there are racists within every race and that will never change. There are black racists just like there are white racists. Yet you never hear the argument that the Pacers had their worst attendance ever when they had their whitest team in their history. Was it because the half million non white members of the Indianapolis area were racist? See how ridiculous that argument is.

Racism exists. Now it may fluctuate with time, but it always has and always will exist. It has absolutely nothing to do with attendance issues. When hockey teams struggle because of attendance, should we accuse the blacks of being racist for not supporting a bunch of white guys on ice? This blame whitey opinion is just bogus in my book. White people have shown all over the country they will fill up arenas for almost all black teams, but I have never seen majority black crowds rooting for almost all white teams. Double standard?

BillS
02-21-2013, 04:44 PM
OK, this is starting to wobble over the line. Still letting it go because we HAVE to be able to have the conversation, but keeping a close eye on it.

presto123
02-21-2013, 04:51 PM
Like I said in the other thread where I was disagreed with, the Pacers are still indirectly paying for the brawl. Notice I said INDIRECTLY. The fact is that attendance dropped and we had to ship players to change the culture and attendance has never recovered to this day is evidence enough. No one can convince me that in some ways the Pacers are not still paying for the actions of the "thugs". A bigger market probably would have shaken it off but not in central Indiana. I believe the attendance will increase and this team deserves it but nobody could have foreseen the ramifications of what went down in Detroit that day.

graphic-er
02-21-2013, 04:54 PM
I've been harping on the media coverage of this team for about a month now. I can't believe the Pacers aren't demanding better coverage of this team. Maybe they need to renovate the media room and have several of the players do a 5 min session after each game.

cdash
02-21-2013, 04:54 PM
I won't go to any games until they get rid of all those white guys. Hansbroughs, Plumless--they have to go. I'm not out here to support a bunch of honkeys.

Midcoasted
02-21-2013, 04:58 PM
OK, this is starting to wobble over the line. Still letting it go because we HAVE to be able to have the conversation, but keeping a close eye on it.

Maybe it is better suited in Market Square, but this is a major issue surrounding this franchise right now. Because of a few scattered racists on the internet we have the sports world saying we are having attendance issues because of white racism. And I'm not just calling out the white racists spouting criminal thug remarks, I'm talking about all the racists making this an issue. If anyone can seriously say that most all white people are racist and Indiana is mostly white and that is why the Pacers struggle, then they themselves must be racist. Indiana is no more racist than any other place in the world. The mostly white rural areas of any state are more racist than the diverse population centers. Ask people who live in areas right outside of Atlanta how they view the inner city, and you see this as an issue everywhere. The Pacers don't play in Indiana. They don't tour the state. They play in Indianapolis, the most diverse part of the state, where literally a half million non whites live. There are enough non whites to sell out every game for a decade if they just went to a few games a year.

Cousy47
02-21-2013, 05:17 PM
Did Cowherd mention that the ONLY sellouts the Pacers have is for games with Miami, LA, NY, Brkyn, SAS, Chicago. and Boston? These teams have all white players with no tattoos, right? Oh, wait a minute! What a silly topic in 2013! On the other hand, I have some friends who moved out of Indy and didn't see Pacer games for several years whose first questions for me was "Why are you still following those Thugs?" The public perception of a team is a delicate thing. Maybe TPTB does need a state wide 'get to know your Pacers' tour in the off season?

Hicks
02-21-2013, 06:20 PM
Haven't you guys seen all the KKK members that stand outside the fieldhouse keeping all the law abiding folks from getting into the games? It's a real travesty I tell you. Amazingly enough though they let the players into the game. One of the 7 wonders of the world really.

No. I only tend to notice them around Christmas time when they're in front of all the Walmarts ringing bells, just a few yards away from the Salvation Army who keeps looking at them nervously.

woowoo
02-21-2013, 06:34 PM
Golly... Colin Blowhard popping off at a market he is now "REENTERING" ..

????

He got what he wanted... attention... simple play, with great execution.

Who cares about Colin Cowherd?

rabid
02-21-2013, 06:38 PM
Indiana is no more racist than any other place in the world.

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Ever spent time in Evansville? Martinsville?

I love Indiana. I spent 31 years of my life living there. Crown Point, Evansville, Louisville area, Greenwood, and Bloomington. Great people for the most part. But there definitely is more racism in certain areas of the state (maybe not Indy so much anymore) than in some other parts of the country.

Doesn't make it Indiana's "fault" per se, there are complex forces at work, economically, culturally, historically... but all places are not the same, sorry.

rabid
02-21-2013, 06:43 PM
I also hesitate to get involved in this thread. I will say that "racism" is a much, much more complicated and subtle issue than some of you are making it out to be. Kravitz is oversimplifying as well. The "hey, why weren't we selling out games when we had a bunch of white dudes a few years back" comments strike me as particularly ignorant... JMHO.

I think the true attendance issues are complex. However as I've said many many times in these attendance threads... the issues are local/regional ones. It's not ticket prices, or the bad economy, or parking, or the NBA as a sport, or the product on the floor, or the stadium... these are all things that are as good or better in Indy than in other similar-sized markets who have better attendance.

I pray/hope race is not a major factor, but who knows.

aamcguy
02-21-2013, 08:17 PM
I honestly wasn't aware this was even being considered an issue.

I hate reading articles by people playing the race card. I hate reading articles by people protesting against others playing the race card. It's not qutie as simple as, "If you don't talk about it, it will go away," but I feel like there's no reason to give something so potentially divisive legs. Racism is out there, but it's not running rampant in dominant culture *quite* the way journalists hoping to score ratings by talking about contentious yet safe issues would have you believe.

Midcoasted
02-21-2013, 09:36 PM
I'm sorry but this is just not true. Ever spent time in Evansville? Martinsville?

I love Indiana. I spent 31 years of my life living there. Crown Point, Evansville, Louisville area, Greenwood, and Bloomington. Great people for the most part. But there definitely is more racism in certain areas of the state (maybe not Indy so much anymore) than in some other parts of the country.

Doesn't make it Indiana's "fault" per se, there are complex forces at work, economically, culturally, historically... but all places are not the same, sorry.

I live in Evansville, and it is nothing like the fantasy world you are describing. The inner city is a very diverse place and you see just as many black racists as whites. Just check Topix if you don't believe me. The idiotic racism goes both ways. If you are white with a big family odds are you have at least one bi racial family member. I have several. How could we be so racist? I have had several black friends and acquaintances over the years. And trust me I have met black people who are racist against other black people. So your notion that Evansville is so full of white racism is false. Outside of the city of Evansville in the majority white parts you have more white racism than the inner city. In the inner city the blacks are more racist than the ones that live in the majority white areas. It's called human nature.

Again it's a two way street. I have been in the black areas and encountered racism for being white. I'm sure black people have been to the white areas and encountered it. But I've been the only white guy in the club and never truly had a problem. And I've seen one black guy in a club full of whites and never have a real problem. Almost no hate crimes occur here, even though the crime rate is pretty high within the city limits.

I have also lived on the Southside of Indianapolis for many years, which is a majority white as well. I encountered just as much racism in Indianapolis as Evansville, which was some words here and there, but no for real hate crimes. Ever head of Whiteland Indiana? It was called that for a reason at one point in time. You obviously have not lived here in Evansville the last 20 years. Maybe in 1992 you had a point, I have heard crazy stories from the riots in the 60s, but I never see extreme racial issues here today. We all seem to get along just fine, even if some dumbasses make stupid comments on the Internet.

Ok mods I won't make any more comments on this issue. I am done with this thread.

Hicks
02-21-2013, 10:32 PM
To me, the bottom line is that we had racism in Indiana in the 70s 80s 90s and 2000s, probably even more back then than in 2013, so it was always a variable in this equation since the creation of the franchise, which is why I see no reason why it would suddenly be a more significant factor today than it has ever been before. It's almost certainly other reasons IMO.

Kstat
02-21-2013, 10:40 PM
To me, the bottom line is that we had racism in Indiana in the 70s 80s 90s and 2000s, probably even more back then than in 2013, so it was always a variable in this equation since the creation of the franchise, which is why I see no reason why it would suddenly be a more significant factor today than it has ever been before. It's almost certainly other reasons IMO.

This is the harsh truth (as I see it):

The nba has and will always be about the stars. When the pacers get a crowd pleasing star that shines on a national level, local attendance will go up.

Given Paul George's rise, he could be there someday, but he doesn't do a lot of his work in the highlight reels. Reggie did almost all of his work there. George is probably a better player right now than Reggie ever was, but he may never be as big a local draw.

(Cue the inevitable response of rants about Indiana being about team first and me not knowing what I'm talking about)

rabid
02-21-2013, 10:42 PM
Sigh here we go, I have to respond but then I'm done here...


I live in Evansville...

Cool. I like Evansville. I lived there from 1985-87. Went to Plaza Park Middle School and lived near Division St. near Green River Rd. before they turned it into a bypass. My stepmom was born and raised there, and my dad met and married her 27 years ago while we lived there. I still have friends from there and I have been back many many many times, most recently in 2009 or so for a few days. Did some riverboat gambling among other things.


(Evansville) is nothing like the fantasy world you are describing.

Go back and re-read exactly what I said. What "fantasy world" did I describe?

You said, and I quote...


Indiana is no more racist than any other place in the world.

Any other place in the world? Really?.... Have you traveled much?

I never said Evansville was a bad place, in fact I even said (referring to all of Indiana actually) "Great people for the most part." Please go back and re-read what I actually said, not what you seem to *feel* like I said.


The inner city is a very diverse place and you see just as many black racists as whites. Just check Topix if you don't believe me.

This is meaningless, what's your point? There is no racism in Evansville because there are black people and white people in the same place?


The idiotic racism goes both ways.

I agree! In fact I never said otherwise.


I have had several black friends and acquaintances over the years. And trust me I have met black people who are racist against other black people.

You have several black friends, cool... there couldn't possibly be racism in Evansville if you have black friends right?


So your notion that Evansville is so full of white racism is false.

I never said that. Please show me where I said that.


Outside of the city of Evansville in the majority white parts you have more white racism than the inner city.

Totally agree.


In the inner city the blacks are more racist than the ones that live in the majority white areas. It's called human nature.

EDIT: Sorry, misread what you said here, I actually agree with this


Again it's a two way street. I have been in the black areas and encountered racism for being white. I'm sure black people have been to the white areas and encountered it. But I've been the only white guy in the club and never truly had a problem. And I've seen one black guy in a club full of whites and never have a real problem. Almost no hate crimes occur here, even though the crime rate is pretty high within the city limits.

I think you have a pretty different idea of what "racism" is than I do. Racism isn't just overt hate crimes and fighting and name calling. It's MUCH more subtle and institutional than that. It's income and job disparity, education disparity, housing and job discrimination, and a whole host of other things.


I have also lived on the Southside of Indianapolis for many years, which is a majority white as well.

So did I. Greenwood High School class of 1992. I was editor of the school paper and had to go to MSA for Pacers games to take pictures of the school band or the color guard or whenever our choir would sing the national anthem, that sort of stuff. I got floor press passes for Pacer games and that's when I fell in love with the team. Chuck Person, Detlef, young Reggie etc.

There was a total of ONE black kid in my entire high school until my senior year, when that kid's younger brother became a freshman. Then there were two black kids! (That doesn't have any correlation to racism, just sayin)

Did you know that the head of the KKK resided in Greenwood for many years in the early 20th century? One of the town's claims to fame.


I encountered just as much racism in Indianapolis as Evansville, which was some words here and there, but no for real hate crimes.

Again, I think you unfortunately have a very superficial idea of what "racism" is. There's a LOT more to it than name calling or hate crimes.


Ever head of Whiteland Indiana? It was called that for a reason at one point in time.

Thanks yeah, I lived 5 miles from there for 6-7 years and had close friends who went to their high school. What's your point.


Even if some dumbasses make stupid comments on the Internet.

Thanks for the not-so-thinly veiled personal attack! Have a great day. I stand by every single word I said previously, which if you actually chill out for a second and re-read slowly, wasn't anywhere as accusatory as you seem to have taken it.

Midcoasted
02-21-2013, 11:19 PM
Sigh here we go, I have to respond but then I'm done here...



Cool. I like Evansville. I lived there from 1985-97. Went to Plaza Park Middle School and lived near Division St. near Green River Rd. before they turned it into a bypass. My stepmom was born and raised there, and my dad met and married her 27 years ago while we lived there. I still have friends from there and I have been back many many many times, most recently in 2009 or so for a few days. Did some riverboat gambling among other things.



Go back and re-read exactly what I said. What "fantasy world" did I describe?

You said, and I quote...



Any other place in the world? Really?.... Have you traveled much?

I never said Evansville was a bad place, in fact I even said (referring to all of Indiana actually) "Great people for the most part." Please go back and re-read what I actually said, not what you seem to *feel* like I said.



This is meaningless, what's your point? There is no racism in Evansville because there are black people and white people in the same place?



I agree! In fact I never said otherwise.



You have several black friends, cool... there couldn't possibly be racism in Evansville if you have black friends right?



I never said that. Please show me where I said that.



Totally agree.



EDIT: Sorry, misread what you said here, I actually agree with this



I think you have a pretty different idea of what "racism" is than I do. Racism isn't just overt hate crimes and fighting and name calling. It's MUCH more subtle and institutional than that. It's income and job disparity, education disparity, housing and job discrimination, and a whole host of other things.



So did I. Greenwood High School class of 1992. I was editor of the school paper and had to go to MSA for Pacers games to take pictures of the school band or the color guard or whenever our choir would sing the national anthem, that sort of stuff. I got floor press passes for Pacer games and that's when I fell in love with the team. Chuck Person, Detlef, young Reggie etc.

There was a total of ONE black kid in my entire high school until my senior year, when that kid's younger brother became a freshman. Then there were two black kids! (That doesn't have any correlation to racism, just sayin)

Did you know that the head of the KKK resided in Greenwood for many years in the early 20th century? One of the town's claims to fame.



Again, I think you unfortunately have a very superficial idea of what "racism" is. There's a LOT more to it than name calling or hate crimes.



Thanks yeah, I lived 5 miles from there for 6-7 years and had close friends who went to their high school. What's your point.



Thanks for the not-so-thinly veiled personal attack! Have a great day. I stand by every single word I said previously, which if you actually chill out for a second and re-read slowly, wasn't anywhere as accusatory as you seem to have taken it.

1. I am sorry you took my post like it was directed exclusively towards you. I could have worded it better and made that clear. Again I apologize.

2. I was directing it more towards the discussion in general, not you specifically. I do get offensive when people call my city more racist because it just simply is not true. It was like I was defending it against all the people that make that assumption. I do not think words carry as much weight as actions. I have seen white people make racist remarks then fall in love with a black person. Some people just make dumb and ignorant comments because they are human, and humans fear what is different than them. They later realize they are wrong or they did not really fully mean what they said in the first place. My point is that if racism really was that prevalent then hate crimes would occur more than they do, not that they are an exclusive measure of racism.

3. You make great points about subtle racism. I know it exists, but I still stand to argue that it is no more prevalent in Evansville, or amongst whites. Races in all cities are racist. Any white person knows they may not survive in certain neighborhoods very long simply because of their skin color. Places like LA come to mind. I had a white friend from San Diego. He told me stories of all the racism he encountered because he was white from Mexican Americans. He was jumped several times and even stabbed once simply for being white. So what city do you speak of that has so much less racism than Evansville?

4. Subtle racism exists in all races. White people just happen to be the majority in this country. I would debate that all countries have problems with subtle racism towards the minorities. I think if whites were the minority, they would have it tougher as well, because racism transcends skin color. Whenever a race has a majority that means there are more total racists, and it does cause some form of disadvantage for minorities, but the legal system has tried to remedy the situation through anti discrimination laws. The justice system may be racist, but that is an evil and corrupt system that needs reform regardless. I just have never witnessed racism hold back a qualified black person. All the black people I know that were good workers and people climbed the ladder just as easy as a white person, and easier in some cases because of affirmative action.

5. I did not mean to direct the dumbasses comment at you. I was speaking of all the idiots on the Internet that spew off racist remarks. These idiots are a make up of all races. You just see more white ones because there are a lot more white people in this country than any race.

6. I am done this time. I know I have crossed the line for this board and this discussion belongs in Market Square but I wanted to respond to your comments.

rabid
02-21-2013, 11:37 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful reply Midcoasted. :buddies:

It's complicated isn't it...

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:14 AM
I'm sorry but this is just not true. Ever spent time in Evansville? Martinsville?

I love Indiana. I spent 31 years of my life living there. Crown Point, Evansville, Louisville area, Greenwood, and Bloomington. Great people for the most part. But there definitely is more racism in certain areas of the state (maybe not Indy so much anymore) than in some other parts of the country.

Doesn't make it Indiana's "fault" per se, there are complex forces at work, economically, culturally, historically... but all places are not the same, sorry.
100% agree. I've heard racist talk and had to cope with it simply to maintain social decorum. I've been in many converstations where people say things that they don't even realize is racist. AT WORK last year someone emailed out a photoshop of Obama as a monkey. AT WORK. No one flinched, no one was hauled into HR, and the general reception was "ha ha".

Also it's not been that long ago that we had a Klan rally down at the courthouse, like the early 90s as I recall. This is the truth from a lifer Hoosier who has also had the chance to briefly live in a few other places. Indy Metro is interesting and has a decent level of diversity, but it's a drastically different demographic just 20-30 miles from the circle.



Plus Kravitz response was way over the top. He took Cowherd's points and twisted them into hyperbolic strawmen. Colin never said it's KKK time and hoods in Indy. He said that in some of these markets fans feel uncomfortable with a product built around people that look different and perhaps come from a different culture.

And don't even get me started on "but HS or NCAA players are black and get support" because the sad truth there is that those roles are perceived as "controlled" young men, not rich 20 somethings able to do whatever they want and imposing their culture on you. It can feel almost like a passive aggressive thing where the black kids are allowed to be controlled by a white coach, but look out when it comes to a black NCAA coach in the state. Indiana had a brief run, and you have IUPUI, the metro college.

But if IU had a president, AD, and so on that promoted what might be considered a classic "black school" climate like Grambling, with the marching band styles, players with different fashion sense, etc. Well then skin would crawl for a good portion of the fanbase.



Indiana is also not the most racist area I've been too. There are certainly a lot more overt issues in placers like the Carolinas, Alabama and Mississippi. Indiana is just a few steps up from "overt" and is now in the "I don't have any problem with them, I just don't like their hip hopping and bling and all the gang problems like at Black Expo". And maybe this is only 30% of the area or 40%, whatever. It's still more than other places have. So just because lots of people aren't that way doesn't mean it's not an issue still in setting the cultural mood.

Naptown_Seth
02-22-2013, 03:30 AM
Sports. Where complete strangers call another complete stranger racist, because they don't go to games.

Considering how awful WNBA attendance is, you all must be sexist too. Make sure to punch your mother.
Women can't play quality basketball, it's boring to watch because they kinda suck.

Sexist or not sexist? Because that's the reason the attendance for the WNBA is lower. To me it sounds like the perception of the sport product is being based directly on a gender based stereotype. It may be built on some truth, but it's got nothing to do with a hate crime on a woman. Mom can't throw a ball does NOT equal punch your mom.



And there is a difference between racism in the traditional sense of open hostility and the general discomfort of being cultural out of synch. Kings of Comedy were pretty damn funny, but they didn't sell a lot of tickets to white people. That's not just random chance.


And of course this goes both ways, or multi-ways. It also goes for nationalities, regionalism, etc. There is a reason why soccer and hockey aren't as popular in the US. But that doesn't make it wrong to note it and say "maybe soccer just isn't for Americans, maybe they just shouldn't try to support a pro-league" much in the way Colin is saying "maybe the NBA just isn't for Indiana and maybe it has less to do with costs (low) and style (team based instead of single star).



I think the subconscious racial views played a huge part in how the brawl, Rio, 8 Seconds and Cloud 9 were perceived. If someone followed Larry Bird back to the Conrad and took shots at him, the fans wouldn't wanted to run him out of town or blamed him for it. Just like fans will trash a black player that fathers a kid out of wedlock or maybe doesn't do a great job of supporting them, but gives Larry a free pass on his first daughter.

So the Pacers had won over fans and they did have some actions that should have made fans not like those particular players. But they should know or could easily know that those problematic players are long gone, and yet they've clung to the "thug" image which tells me it's more about how they view NBA players in general.

Peck
02-22-2013, 03:54 AM
Are there idiots who hate the Pacers & NBA because of race? Yes, I am absolutely certain that there are.

Those people did not attend Pacers games in the past (with maybe the exception of back in the 80's and very early 90's wearing their Kelly Green) the aren't attending Pacers games now and they will never attend Pacers games in the future.

So to me they are not an issue nor should they be. In fact wasting any moment of your life thinking about them is a loss.

Again I am just stunned that the attendance is even an issue right now. This year is so much better than it has been in the past few years it's not even funny.

One thing though that Bob did point out in his article that I did not know and am glad that he did. Due to the capacity we can only ever be as high as 13th in the NBA in attendance.

mattie
02-22-2013, 04:02 AM
Well said Seth. Thank you. Yiu were able to accurately describe the problem without upsettung people.

I think there are two schools of thought in white america. "Racism doesnt really exist" crowd and thise who see major problems with how our society treats minorities. I think the problem, as you said, is thos who think racism is a minor issue believe racism means "kkk." Where as systematic racism is something you cannot see unless you're looking for it.

The subtle racism in our society whether it is from individuals or the media is a major problem we must solve. It doesnt mean people intend to cause harm. They just dont realize it. Calling an african american a "thug" for instance is extremely offensive but many people dont realize it.

mattie
02-22-2013, 04:03 AM
That was on my phone.

Apologies for any errors.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 09:18 AM
Again, yes, racism exists in Indiana. I made that very clear in my first post. I've witnessed it first hand. I have three adopted sisters that are not white like the rest of my family. I've seen some of the looks we get once we get a certain distance from the safety of Indy and it's burbs. I heard the racist things that the black players on my high school team had to hear as well when we beat Lebanon in Sectionals. I've seen it.


But it is not the reason the Pacers can't sell out games every night. It's probably not even in the top 50 reasons. 1.) These people typically don't live that close to the fieldhouse. For most areas I've had this experience in (and again sure there are some racists still even in metro Indy, but we all know it is extremely, extremely rare, Indy is now a very diverse place) it would be a minimum one hour both ways to attend a Pacers game anyway. 2.) These areas I've also had these experiences in are typically pretty hard hit by economy themselves. The fieldhouse sit 18,165. If racists were the only issue the Pacers had to deal with when marketing the team or filling up the stadium or even the primary issue or even a top 5 or 10 issue, the fieldhouse would be full every night because it's just not that big of an issue specifically for the Pacers.

It's a societal issue, one we should want to eradicate, yes, but not one that the eradication of would lead to a sudden increase in support of the Pacers.

graphic-er
02-22-2013, 09:19 AM
Maybe Kravitz can do a new article about the attendance being tied to couch potato-ism.

RWB
02-22-2013, 09:24 AM
Also it's not been that long ago that we had a Klan rally down at the courthouse, like the early 90s as I recall. This is the truth from a lifer Hoosier who has also had the chance to briefly live in a few other places. Indy Metro is interesting and has a decent level of diversity, but it's a drastically different demographic just 20-30 miles from the circle.


And I've seen something similar in Terre Haute. A Klan rally of 10 white sheeted buffoons making fools of themselves. Of course they were eclipsed big time by the crowd of over a hundred folks yelling back at the POSs. And to clarify the anti Klan folks were from the Terre Haute area (not brought in from the outside). Funny thing also is the crowd was 90% white and 10%black.

Indiana as a whole is no worse or better than anywhere else, but it sure seems we get stuck with that label. Gee I believe with little effort we might discover there is racism even on the east coast where Cowherd is from.

TOP
02-22-2013, 10:25 AM
So the idea that racism is connected to attendance, does this only apply to the NBA or something?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/depth/_/name/ind/indianapolis-colts

4 of 11 starters on the Colts offense are white and 1 of 11 starters on defense are white. The depth chart shows the starting tight end is white and Dwyane Allen is listed as the fullback but Allen was 4th in receiving yards on the team with over 500 and is listed as a tight end on the stat sheet while Cody Fleener had 280. So I'm counting Allen as the starting tight end despite what the depth chart shows. Also worth noting aside from just 5 of the 22 starters being white, the third leading receiver and back up running back are both black and contributed with 780yds receiving and 420 yards rushing. Point is, the team was centered around 18 black players, 5 white players and 1 Hawaiian player not including special teams. And of the five white starters, three were offensive lineman. Nobody goes to the game to watch offensive lineman or buys their jerseys so that leaves two white players actually worth watching, the QB and SS. That didn't seem to hurt attendance...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance/_/sort/homePct

I'm assuming the Pacers attendance being down has to do with the fact that a lot of people can't afford to go to games. I know a number of people who are struggling to save their homes and avoid foreclosure. When your options are keeping a roof over your head, electricity on, water running, heat running, food on the table, phone, internet, insurance, gas etc. or going to a game, the choice is easy for most. And a lot of people who can afford to the games, can't afford to go to both Colts and Pacers games. With football being more popular, more people would rather go to football games. Then you factor in there are only 8 home games in the NFL and 40 in the NBA. We're just finishing up 11 home games in the span of 29 days. We also had a stretch earlier in the season of 7 home games in 15 days. 11 home games in 29 days is a home game every two and a half days, and 7 home games in 15 days is a home game every other night. Unless you've been preparing for the whole offseason for the season and bought season tickets, a lot of people don't have the money or aren't invested in the NBA enough to put forth that much time and money. It's not just tickets, it's also gas and the potential of paying for parking, eating at the game or eating out, multiple tickets for an entire family or paying a baby sitter. That adds up really quickly for just that 15 day and 29 day span. Or if you're a casual fan, that's a lot of time to devote to basketball over the course of 15 days-29 days.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think race playing a part in attendance is the farthest factor from making a difference in attendance being down. I think it has everything to do with some people not being able to afford it at all, others not being able to afford 40 home games and some that can afford it, they spend their money on going to Colts games. Or maybe they're fans of Hoosier football, Hoosier basketball, Notre Football, Notre Dame basketball, Purdue football, Purdue basketball, Butler basketball, Bulls, Bears, Bengals, Reds, Cubs, White Sox etc. and they spend their money seeing them instead. You can't afford to do it all and the majority of people prefer football over basketball. There are also a number of people who prefer baseball over basketball and a lot of people prefer college sports over pro sports. I really don't think race plays much of a factor if at all in attendance but that's jmo I guess.

TOP
02-22-2013, 10:32 AM
Are there idiots who hate the Pacers & NBA because of race? Yes, I am absolutely certain that there are.

Those people did not attend Pacers games in the past (with maybe the exception of back in the 80's and very early 90's wearing their Kelly Green) the aren't attending Pacers games now and they will never attend Pacers games in the future.

So to me they are not an issue nor should they be. In fact wasting any moment of your life thinking about them is a loss.

Again I am just stunned that the attendance is even an issue right now. This year is so much better than it has been in the past few years it's not even funny.

One thing though that Bob did point out in his article that I did not know and am glad that he did. Due to the capacity we can only ever be as high as 13th in the NBA in attendance.

But wouldn't that be assuming that everyone with larger arenas fill theirs? If we filled our arena and a team with a larger arena didn't fill theirs, couldn't we surpass 13th?

BillS
02-22-2013, 02:48 PM
Calling an african american a "thug" for instance is extremely offensive but many people dont realize it.

So what word CAN be used for a person who chooses a violent lifestyle that isn't considered racist?

When I grew up, a thug was more likely to refer to the guy selling protection for the Mafia - I have no idea when the decision was made that it was racist, who I should be checking my vocabulary with to have it approved, and what word I'm allowed to use instead.

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Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 02:51 PM
Thug has no racial connotations. If anyone thinks it does that is their own issue.

Heisenberg
02-22-2013, 03:08 PM
It's absolutely become much more common place to call black athletes a "thug" disproportionately to white athletes. Not guys that get in legal trouble or anything, just guys that commit hard fouls and stuff like that. I wouldn't necessarily call it a slur, but it absolutely has gained racial connotations in the last decade or so.

RWB
02-22-2013, 03:14 PM
I remember Pacers fans calling Bill Laimbeer a thug all the time. Didn't realize we were calling him something bad about his race.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:14 PM
It's absolutely become much more common place to call black athletes a "thug" disproportionately to white athletes. Not guys that get in legal trouble or anything, just guys that commit hard fouls and stuff like that. I wouldn't necessarily call it a slur, but it absolutely has gained racial connotations in the last decade or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA

There aren't as many white guys in the NBA to call a thug to begin with. But one of the NBA's most famous on court thugs is Bill Laimbeer.

I hear white hockey players get called thugs all the time.

mattie
02-22-2013, 03:18 PM
So what word CAN be used for a person who chooses a violent lifestyle that isn't considered racist?

When I grew up, a thug was more likely to refer to the guy selling protection for the Mafia - I have no idea when the decision was made that it was racist, who I should be checking my vocabulary with to have it approved, and what word I'm allowed to use instead.

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Calling a professional african american athlete a "thug" absolutely has racial connotations. For the very reason you stated.

A thug is a criminal. Period.

" a brutal ruffian or assassin"

From Websters...

Since86
02-22-2013, 03:20 PM
just guys that commit hard fouls and stuff like that.

So you mean when people are properly using the word by it's defintion?


a brutal ruffian or assassin : gangster (http://www.pacersdigest.com/gangster), tough (http://www.pacersdigest.com/tough)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thug

a brutal person : bully (http://www.pacersdigest.com/bully)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ruffianhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ruffian

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:20 PM
Calling a professional african american athlete a "thug" absolutely has racial connotations. For the very reason you stated.

A thug is a criminal. Period.

" a brutal ruffian or assassin"

From Websters...

Wait....what?

Since86
02-22-2013, 03:22 PM
Calling a professional african american athlete a "thug" absolutely has racial connotations. For the very reason you stated.

A thug is a criminal. Period.

" a brutal ruffian or assassin"

From Websters...

When your quoted defintion doesn't meet your paraphrased definition.....

BillS
02-22-2013, 03:22 PM
Calling a professional african american athlete a "thug" absolutely has racial connotations. For the very reason you stated.

A thug is a criminal. Period.

" a brutal ruffian or assassin"

From Websters...

So it can be applied to anyone BUT a professional African American athlete?

Meaning Bill Laimbeer is a thug, Pat Riley is a thug, but Charles Oakley is a ... what?

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Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:23 PM
So when I call Todd Bertuzzi a white, canadian hockey player a thug....am I a racist?

mattie
02-22-2013, 03:31 PM
Eh. If you can't see why that's offensive, then. well. Ok.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:34 PM
Eh. If you can't see why that's offensive, then. well. Ok.


Being called a thug is probably offensive, but it's not because of race.

EDIT: If I call Chris Birdman Anderson a drug addled burn out is that racist? He's EARNED that nickname.

Since86
02-22-2013, 03:38 PM
Eh. If you can't see why that's offensive, then. well. Ok.

So what would be a term you think is appropriate to describe a group of guys who get in fights/shoot a gun at a strip club, get in a high speed chase through downtown while firing shots out the window, and who go into stands and beat up a fan? (Not only that, but think they did nothing wrong in the process)

You say thug means criminal. All those are crimes. They got charged for them. So calling them thugs is calling them criminals, they got charged and convicted of crimes, but calling them criminals is racist.

And around and around we go.

Mackey_Rose
02-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Whatever you do, don't call any White American athletes miscreants.

Trader Joe
02-22-2013, 03:43 PM
I don't even understand why we are so focused on the word thug. Because a few dopes on the IndyStar comment section of Pacers articles calls them thugs? Who ****ing cares? Those people weren't going to games anyway. And they are a tiny *** minority.

Mackey_Rose
02-22-2013, 03:46 PM
I don't even understand why we are so focused on the word thug. Because a few dopes on the IndyStar comment section of Pacers articles calls them thugs? Who ****ing cares? Those people weren't going to games anyway. And they are a tiny *** minority.

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Sookie
02-22-2013, 04:38 PM
I think racism plays a part in why the NBA isn't as popular as other major sports. (and yet, I believe ranks the highest in popularity among young African American men) Yes, I know that most major sports have plenty of minorities, but the NBA is the only sport that focuses on individual players, and that I think allows for prejudices to come out. And sometimes the reality of who those players are doesn't really come out.

This isn't blatant racism, this is subtle, subconscious or systemic.

I think a great example, is how people cite that they don't like the NBA because of the hiphop culture. First of all, I'd argue the NBA doesn't really have that culture anymore. All the players dress like Steve Urkel or Blaine Anderson (glee..yea..glee.) We constantly see things focusing on Lebron reading the Hunger Games, or Kobe talking about how he loves Harry Potter and Lady Gaga. That's not hip hop.

And second, all of the reasons people cite for disliking hiphop have to do with race. There's not difference between hiphop and rock..or pop...or country. So by "hiphop culture"..the meaning is clearly "black culture." And that makes people uncomfortable. Totally a form of subtle racism.

So yes, I think racism contributes to the NBA being less popular than other major sports. But I don't think it contributes to attendance specifically. I think winning determines whether a team has high attendance or not. Consistent winning. The Pacers had low attendance with Troy and Dunleavy. If the Pacers win, the fans will come back.

Bball
02-22-2013, 05:41 PM
Here's where I am on the 'thug' word:
Some people see it as code for something else. Personally, I don't use it as code for anything and I'm sure many others don't either. OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised if some (read:a few) were using it as code (or a more accepted way of saying something else). Since some (read: several) see it as offensive then I just don't use the word in normal conversation if I can avoid it.

Slick Pinkham
02-22-2013, 06:14 PM
rough hockey players are called goons, at least that's the term I have always heard rather than thug.

dal9
02-22-2013, 07:56 PM
Thug has no racial connotations. If anyone thinks it does that is their own issue.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt, and projection is not just a way to show movies on a screen...

Trader Joe
02-23-2013, 12:26 AM
Denial is not just a river in Egypt, and projection is not just a way to show movies on a screen...

Do you have something to actually say? I think I could probably take offense to what you are accusing me of in this sentence, but it's not worth my time. And frankly as someone who comes from a family that is mixed racially I don't see any reason to have to defend anything I've said in here. I know better than most of you how some of the sleeze balls in Indiana and in other states act, but no it does not really impact the NBA or its attendance.

--------
Anyway pretty good crowd tonight on Friday against a bad Detroit team.

Just win baby.

DgR
02-23-2013, 12:07 PM
These are my reasons for the low attendance (sorry if I'm repeating anything):

1. I agree with Kravitz, one season of high level basketball is not long enough to convince the casual bandwagon fans, and those are the fans who
are missing at the moment. I'm talking about the fans that need to be associating themselves with a winning sports team, not necessarily the Pacers,
the fans that are willing to invest in season tickets, but only if the team is very competitive i.e contending for a championship.

2. I feel the character of the league has changed drastically since the 90s. There are no longer any real rivalries in the game. No real passion. Only stars.
I think that change of culture is a bad fit with a blue collar state like Indiana. (I've never been to Indiana but that's my guess :) )

3. What I've always thought, the NBA regular season is way too long, and the regular season games are relatively meaningless. if the season was half as long,
each game's significance would multiply and it would also prevent a lot of injuries to the players. Win-win in my book.

4. The bad economy obviously has its effects.