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View Full Version : Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?



Mackey_Rose
02-18-2013, 02:55 PM
I think this is a tough question to answer, because these things aren't in a vacuum, but if you had an expansion franchise, and the option of choosing 1 player to start your team with, who do you choose?

I think there are very good arguments that can be made for both.

DJVendetta
02-18-2013, 02:57 PM
I love Paul George, but really? Maybe it's just me, but I would take Kyrie without question.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 02:59 PM
This is tough, I love Kyrie, earlier this season I expressed he may be my favorite young player to watch in the NBA. But historically big time wings win more than big time point guards. Paul has physical gifts that Kyrie will never have.

DJVendetta
02-18-2013, 03:00 PM
This is tough, I love Kyrie, earlier this season I expressed he may be my favorite young player to watch in the NBA. But historically big time wings win more than big time point guards. Paul has physical gifts that Kyrie will never have.

I agree with this in a lot of ways, but I don't know if PG would be the winged player I start my franchise with. (Don't kill me for saying that! lol). quite frankly my dream would be to just have them both on the same team :buddies:

Unclebuck
02-18-2013, 03:00 PM
That is a really tough question. Both are very, very good right now and are going to be great.

But I guess since I think the point guard is the most important position on the floor, I might go with Kyrie. And yet if you have a wing player thaT creates the offense, maybe you don't need the point guard, so maybe I'd take George.

The only answer I would disagree with is the "that's easy, I'll take......"

Cactus Jax
02-18-2013, 03:01 PM
Kyrie is the 1 not all-world guy (yet) that I would trade PG for, and even then I would be really nervous.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:02 PM
That is a really tough question. Both are very, very good right now and are going to be great.

But I guess since I think the point guard is the most important position on the floor, I might go with Kyrie. And yet if you have a wing player thaT creates the offense, maybe you don't need the point guard, so maybe I'd take George.


I think a month agao I would have answered differently. But Paul has shown the ability recently to be the creator in the offense. Heck, Spo was running Lebron's sets for Paul in the 4th quarter last ngiht. Getting him the ball off a screen and having him go to the hoop with the option to kick to a shooter in the corner (Kyrie) or try and finish himself.

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 03:03 PM
I absolutely love PG, but I think Irving is the next generations top player, he's a very special talent. He's marketable, too... Uncle Drew is some good stuff.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:03 PM
I do love Uncle Drew. Best commercial in a long time.

Mackey_Rose
02-18-2013, 03:03 PM
I think the best argument for choosing Paul George is Lebron James. In my opinion, Kyrie is the better, more exciting player.

But he can't guard Lebron James.

Goyle
02-18-2013, 03:04 PM
I'm taking Kyrie, but like I mentioned in the other thread these two guys are both going to be superstars.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:05 PM
Last point guard to be the true superstar of a title winning team? Isaiah? I mean we talk titles on here so often. Can a guy be "Batman". The wing has produced way more Batmans.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:08 PM
Also, I know our team is better than Cleveland, but we are not 32-21 without Paul george doing Paul George-y things so far this year. And Cleveland is currently 16-37.

Coopdog23
02-18-2013, 03:09 PM
Kyrie had a far better All Star weekend, but I'd rather have Paul on my team if that's the point of this thread

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:11 PM
So if Cleveland called up the Pacers and said Kyrie for Paul, you guys are all doing it huh? I don't think anyone can accuse PD of being homers anymore.

Ace E.Anderson
02-18-2013, 03:12 PM
How can you NOT go with Kyrie?

I mean I understand that he "can't guard Lebron" but it's not like Paul is causing Lebron to shoot under 50% either. NOBODY can stop Lebron, so to me that's irrelevant.

If I'm starting a franchise I'm taking the 20 year old Irving, and trying to surround him with some talent.

He's already got a great handle, has shown the ability to be clutch, can shoot, can drive, can pass, has size..you could go on and on. But the fact that he's already this good and is 2 years younger than the "still coming into his own" Paul George is another selling point.

LetsTalkPacers84
02-18-2013, 03:12 PM
Who's a better talent and player? Kyrie Irving, no question. Not to say that won't change.

Who do you a better chance to win with? Paul George

imawhat
02-18-2013, 03:13 PM
We'll know the answer in two years. I think Kyrie is better now but he's too injury prone. In two years we'll know if Kyrie has injury problems and whether or not Paul will have continued his upward growth.

I'm nervous about Brian Shaw not being around. I'm not around the team, but he seems to be a great mentor in helping Paul figure out how to get to the next level.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:14 PM
Paul has 16 double doubles and his trip dub this year.

Kyrie has 2 double doubles.

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 03:15 PM
Yea, my ONLY concern with Kyrie is his injury history. That to me is the only real determinant long-term. I guess another few years will give us a better idea of Kyrie's durability. Body aside, though, he's on a different level, talent-wise.

Ace E.Anderson
02-18-2013, 03:15 PM
How can you NOT go with Kyrie?

I mean I understand that he "can't guard Lebron" but it's not like Paul is causing Lebron to shoot under 50% either. NOBODY can stop Lebron, so to me that's irrelevant.

If I'm starting a franchise I'm taking the 20 year old Irving, and trying to surround him with some talent.

He's already got a great handle, has shown the ability to be clutch, can shoot, can drive, can pass, has size..you could go on and on. But the fact that he's already this good and is 2 years younger than the "still coming into his own" Paul George is another selling point.

I will say this though--Kyrie is a tad injury prone, whereas Paul has been healthy so far throughout his career. That's something you can't take for granted

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:16 PM
Last night, Spo benched Kyrie for Paul. Bosh was benched for Noah....would be interesting to see his take on this.

Ace E.Anderson
02-18-2013, 03:16 PM
Paul has 16 double doubles and his trip dub this year.

Kyrie has 2 double doubles.

Let me ask you; and you may have already said....

Do you think Paul George is better than Kyrie Irving?

TinManJoshua
02-18-2013, 03:16 PM
Cleveland ain't got a healthy big, a David West or a Danny waiting to come back from injury. They've got a Stephenson(Waiters, who has his own "he's a point" fans on their board") and that's about it. Luke Walton was their locker room vet prior to signing Shaun Livingston. Talk about a young team.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:19 PM
Let me ask you; and you may have already said....

Do you think Paul George is better than Kyrie Irving?

Right now? yes.

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 03:22 PM
It's not fair to compare this year's PG to this year's Kyrie. Irving is younger, and even then has less seasons under his belt. Of course Kyrie is going to be behind PG in development --- he's got two more years to catch up and 1 more season. Did he start at a younger age? Yep... which also says something. Irving also has a lot less team around him.

PG is a damned good defender, a hard matchup at his position, very versatile and smooth.... but Kyrie has the chance to be the best player of this incoming generation. It's his to lose.

Ace E.Anderson
02-18-2013, 03:23 PM
Right now? yes.

Interesting. Though I'd disagree, I can wholeheartedly understand your way of thinking.

Wings have long dominated the league as far as winning goes, whereas PG's only seem to get AS nominations.

But to me, Kyrie is already a top 10-15 player in the league. But that's just because I love what he brings to the table.

Edit: ps thanks for answering

Ace E.Anderson
02-18-2013, 03:24 PM
The fact that we're having this conversation, and it's LEGITIMATELY a conversation; shows just how much Paul has grown as a player this year lol.

Crazy

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 03:26 PM
The fact that we're having this conversation, and it's LEGITIMATELY a conversation; shows just how much Paul has grown as a player this year lol.

Crazy

Yea, very good point.. I think last year I wouldn't have even put PG in the same category as Irving, so to be doing so is a testament to PG. I think a year ago I had hopes of what PG could be, but I'll admit that I had reservations and maybe even doubts... and that may be erased now. But I don't have and have never had reservations about Kyrie. I've always watched him and thought he was going to be very, very special. He's not like John Wall, who has always struck me as being insanely physically gifted and maybe not so much mentally gifted. Kyrie has a maturity and vision and feel for the game about him that is just rare.

naptownmenace
02-18-2013, 03:26 PM
Right now, I'd have to go with Kyrie. He's already an incredible player and he's only going to get better. In 2-3 years, I don't know. If Paul reaches his potential... man he could be really good. Tough question. I'm glad I don't have to choose. Maybe Kyrie will come to Indy as a free agent and they can take over the league together.

If not, I just hope that Kyrie recruits Paul to be in his next Uncle Drew commercial with big Wes! I'm thinking of all the "Don't jump youngblood!" moments that commercial could have.

Hicks
02-18-2013, 03:27 PM
I think this is a tough question to answer, because these things aren't in a vacuum, but if you had an expansion franchise, and the option of choosing 1 player to start your team with, who do you choose?

I think there are very good arguments that can be made for both.

My twitch reaction was to think Kyrie Irving. In general, but especially since he's a PG.

But then I thought about how close it's starting to get, and then furthermore I thought about which one has a medical history that might scare me if I'm the GM. So I voted Paul George. If they had the same health history, I'd probably go with Irving at this time.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:28 PM
A month ago, I would have said Kyrie without hesitation. Paul's ability to create offense for other over the past month though, edges him ahead IMO.

imawhat
02-18-2013, 03:30 PM
The fact that we're having this conversation, and it's LEGITIMATELY a conversation; shows just how much Paul has grown as a player this year lol.

Crazy


It is crazy. So many things have gone into his improvement, but overall I think his improvement in dribbling opens everything else up. Now he can dribble with his head up and make better plays.

Unclebuck
02-18-2013, 03:31 PM
Just think if you were a Wizard fan. I would be like, wait I thought John Wall was supposed to be the next great point guard. What happened??

Ace E.Anderson
02-18-2013, 03:32 PM
If the two players traded positions; Kyrie on a veteran loaded Pacers team, and Paul George on a young somewhat talent deprived team like Cleveland--is the argument as close?


Obviously merely hypothetical, but do both players grow and develop as much as they have? Are the pacers closer to being a true contender than they are now?

Lol this thread is driving me to think!!

TinManJoshua
02-18-2013, 03:32 PM
I could go either way. The injury history has me wavering from my initial choice.

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 03:32 PM
The one thing going for us is that Cleveland seems utterly incapable of keeping the superstars that come through there, lol.... so MAYBE WE HAVE A CHANCE.

BRushWithDeath
02-18-2013, 03:34 PM
James Harden should probably be included in this discussion. Also, this thread reminded me of something extremely disconcerting. There are five 2013 All-Stars who are younger than our 2012 1st round draft pick.

Kyrie Irving, Paul George, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, and Kevin Durant are all younger than Miles Plumlee. At least Derrick Rose's knee kept it on one hand.

BillS
02-18-2013, 03:35 PM
If the two players traded positions; Kyrie on a veteran loaded Pacers team, and Paul George on a young somewhat talent deprived team like Cleveland--is the argument as close?

Seriously here, wasn't the argument being made that Paul was being "held back" due to playing on a veteran loaded team prior to this year when DG was down? Wouldn't people be arguing that you learn faster by starting and being the Man on your team as soon as you get into the league?

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:35 PM
If the two players traded positions; Kyrie on a veteran loaded Pacers team, and Paul George on a young somewhat talent deprived team like Cleveland--is the argument as close?


Obviously merely hypothetical, but do both players grow and develop as much as they have? Are the pacers closer to being a true contender than they are now?

Lol this thread is driving me to think!!

Kyrie is a scoring point guard. I'm not sure his assists would go up. I think he would be about the same. I don't know about Paul he is tougher to gauge. I think he may have developed slower in Cleveland, but now that it seemingly has "clicked" for him I htink he would remain a big impact player if he and Kyrie suddenly swapped spots. In fact his scoring might actually go up in Cleveland.

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 03:35 PM
If the two players traded positions; Kyrie on a veteran loaded Pacers team, and Paul George on a young somewhat talent deprived team like Cleveland--is the argument as close?


Obviously merely hypothetical, but do both players grow and develop as much as they have? Are the pacers closer to being a true contender than they are now?

Lol this thread is driving me to think!!

I think that question further drives home the point. Kyrie entered a team that was really a wreck and is the undisputed centerpiece and leader. I'm not entirely sure PG would've handled it the same --- he has always seemed to need to take time without shouldering that kind of load. I think PG was helped tremendously by being on the mature, professional team that was around him here. I guess what Im' saying is... would PG have been an All-Star this year had he been doing this for the Cavs? I honestly think that's probly not the case.

Let's be honest here, Kyrie was an undisputed #1 pick... PG was a "risk pick" at 10. The pedigree is just not on the same level. PG is realizing his potential, whereas Kyrie is simply executing the potential everyone expected of him.

Hicks
02-18-2013, 03:36 PM
A month ago, I would have said Kyrie without hesitation. Paul's ability to create offense for other over the past month though, edges him ahead IMO.

Admittedly, yeah, if he consistently can initiate offense (from passing as well as shooting/scoring) like he was doing last week, then it doesn't really matter that the other guy in the poll is a point guard.

Mackey_Rose
02-18-2013, 03:37 PM
The thread title was poorly constructed on my part. Neither one of these guys are the "Best Young All-Star."

Kevin Durant isn't even 25, and then you have guys like Griffin, Harden, and Westbrook who are all younger than him.

I should have said "Best All-Star born in the '90's."

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:37 PM
But who has the higher ceilling? Even now it is still probably PG no? And I think he is the more complete player at this moment as well.

I don't know that there is a for sure answer, I'm honestly a little surprised at the poll, but still awesome that PG has put himself out there, because like I said even a month ago I would have gone Kyrie in a heartbeat.

Mackey_Rose
02-18-2013, 03:38 PM
James Harden should probably be included in this discussion. Also, this thread reminded me of something extremely disconcerting. There are five 2013 All-Stars who are younger than our 2012 1st round draft pick.

Kyrie Irving, Paul George, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, and Kevin Durant are all younger than Miles Plumlee. At least Derrick Rose's knee kept it on one hand.

Jrue Holiday. Also a '90's baby.

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 03:39 PM
I would love for PG to prove me wrong.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:42 PM
I've been on the Paul is about who he is train up until mid January. I rode that train for a long time and I loved riding it and honestly even if it is now true that he's not getting any better than this, I'm still ok with it (Though Kyrie will probably end up better then), but I'm done underselling the kid. Paul has answered the bell and he has upped his offense while not slipping on D which you know is kind of a big deal. So I'm all aboard the PG is going to be a big bright shining star train even if it ends up in ashes. I can still just hop on the PG is an 18, 8, and 4 train at 38% 3 point shooting. Which you know if he does that he'll only be the 5th dude ever to do those numbers for a season.

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 03:44 PM
What's crazy to think is that as good as PG is at the 3-ball... Kyrie still hits it at a higher clip. At 20... in his second season. Kyrie's form isn't even really all taht perfect, he's got a lot of room to improve. And he's still hitting high and even winning the 3-ball contest despite all odds. He hit something like 17 out of 18 at one point during the contest final round.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIe1F0YCL3E

BRushWithDeath
02-18-2013, 03:48 PM
Jrue Holiday. Also a '90's baby.

Ahh hell. I forgot Jrue Holiday and Blake Griffin. So much for my one hand argument. At least Miles has Brook Lopez by a couple of months.

But seriously, the young talent in the league right now is pretty extraordinary.

Mackey_Rose
02-18-2013, 03:50 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/n8pfj32yHYw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm posting this so that nobody can ever say I don't appreciate art.

Nuntius
02-18-2013, 03:51 PM
Kyrie Irving is awesome. He is an absolutely complete offensive player and he is only 20 years old. He has amazing handles, he can shoot, he has good body control, he has great footwork, he can drive and finish at the rim, he can post up, he can pass. He can do everything on the offensive side of the ball. But he's not a two-way player yet. And he is a point guard.

Yes, the point guard is one of the most important positions in basketballs. But what's important is that your point guard knows his role. You don't have to be an amazing talent to be a successful point guard. If you are a good basketball player and you execute your role then you can be a successful point guard even if you are not a top 10 talent. In fact, point guards that are top 10 talents tend to win less titles than any other position in the NBA.

Simply put, wings and bigs win more often than PGs. Under this premise, I would take Paul George over Kyrie Irving. Simply because Paul is a wing and Kyrie is a PG.

Ace E.Anderson
02-18-2013, 03:53 PM
What's crazy to think is that as good as PG is at the 3-ball... Kyrie still hits it at a higher clip. At 20... in his second season. Kyrie's form isn't even really all taht perfect, he's got a lot of room to improve. And he's still hitting high and even winning the 3-ball contest despite all odds. He hit something like 17 out of 18 at one point during the contest final round.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIe1F0YCL3E

Kyrie is going off of pure talent at this point. His shooting form isn't all that great (like you said) and as tight as his handle is (and I think it's the best in the game) he still has yet to master driving angles, changing speeds, and the use of a floater (all ala Tony Parker) within his arsenal. What I mean is, once he learns to play basketball more, he'll be even better than he is currently.

I think one thing Kyrie will always have over Paul is the ability to score whenever he wants. Kyrie ALWAYS gets himself a good look, and it's second nature to him. He's a player that's much more likely to go off for 30 or 40 points in a given game, whether he's hitting the 3-ball or not. If Paul isn't knocking down his 3's, he most likely isn't going to score much over 20--if at all.

Now does that necessarily make him better than Paul is a completely different discussion, but I think Kyrie will always be ahead offensively.

Edit: And because of his size and athleticism, Paul wll always be better defensively.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:54 PM
I will trade my first born to bring Kyrie to the Pacers pair him with PG. How many first borns will it take? Who wants in on this?

Mackey_Rose
02-18-2013, 03:56 PM
I will trade my first born to bring Kyrie to the Pacers pair him with PG. How many first borns will it take? Who wants in on this?

Don't reach young blood.

pacer4ever
02-18-2013, 03:56 PM
Last night, Spo benched Kyrie for Paul. Bosh was benched for Noah....would be interesting to see his take on this.

Noah last night showed the world why he is one of my favorite players. Guys who play hard no matter the setting or game is a guy I want on my team. You could tell Noah and Paul wanted to win Bosh didn't. The huddle said it all to me PG24 and Noah had there game faces on and everyone eles didn't. That was what made me most proud of Paul. Spo asked the unit to play hard and win it and pg24 just looked serious and nodded. I was upset Spo but Bosh in I think they win the game if they keep Noah and PG24 the whole 4th. Pg24 showed what all the greats have desire to win not matter what and that was pretty cool. I knew Noah had that trait but I didn't know pg24 did.

naptownmenace
02-18-2013, 03:57 PM
I know he plays point but IMO, he plays more like a Shooting Guard. He's more like Dwayne Wade than he is Chris Paul that's for sure.

Kyrie's defense still leaves a lot to be desired. He's downright terrible at times, losing his man away from the ball. If he can improve in that area, he'll be an MVP caliber player. I still need to see Paul George finish this season out before I can say that he's definitely superstar bound. I have no doubts that Kyrie will be a superstar.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 03:59 PM
I actually think I might call Kyrie Gilbert Arenas without the crazy.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 04:01 PM
Don't reach young blood.

Yes.

Mackey_Rose
02-18-2013, 04:01 PM
The fact that this is conversation, and while I don't want to change my pick, just knowing that Paul has a legitimate argument is incredibly exciting.

Ace E.Anderson
02-18-2013, 04:03 PM
I actually think I might call Kyrie Gilbert Arenas without the crazy.

Great comparison there. From the size to the ability to score from the PG spot.

Sparhawk
02-18-2013, 04:05 PM
Kyrie. I'm not sure it would even be close. Kyrie is gonna be the best pg in the league in a couple of years once CP3 slows down.

Kid Minneapolis
02-18-2013, 04:09 PM
Kyrie isn't necessarily small by PG standards, either. 6'3", 200 lbs. And he's going to fill out more in the next few years. I could completely see him developing one heckuva back-to-the-basket post-game a la Mark Jackson down the road (he's already bigger than Mark), sooner than later, and that would pretty much give him the most complete offensive skillset in the league at that position. He does all that without being an athletic freak like John Wall, which just goes to show that he's got it "up there" where it counts. He's got the mental superiority. He uses angles and momentum and leverage better than almost anyone I've watched recently. He's not bulling people over with strength and speed like LeBron or jumping over people. He's got a very low-to-the-ground game.

Sookie
02-18-2013, 04:16 PM
The fact that this is conversation, and while I don't want to change my pick, just knowing that Paul has a legitimate argument is incredibly exciting.

I don't know who I'd go with, honestly. (Although, I personally would lean towards PG..) But Irving is certainly going to be quite special..and as you said, the fact that there's a legitimate argument for PG is exciting.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 04:16 PM
Someone should show this poll to PG ;)

Nuntius
02-18-2013, 04:20 PM
I know he plays point but IMO, he plays more like a Shooting Guard. He's more like Dwayne Wade than he is Chris Paul that's for sure.


He's certainly a scoring point guard. That's true. And Tony Parker (another great scoring point guard) has won while taking a Finals MVP.

Kyrie could certainly have a career similar to Tony. But he would also need a Duncan.

Mackey_Rose
02-18-2013, 04:21 PM
He's certainly a scoring point guard. That's true. And Tony Parker (another great scoring point guard) has won while taking a Finals MVP.

Kyrie could certainly have a career similar to Tony. But he would also need a Duncan.

He's getting an Oden.

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 04:22 PM
He's getting an Oden.

Good one.

HeliumFear
02-18-2013, 04:26 PM
Right now,Kyrie is unquestionably better than George is. That may change in the coming seasons or it may not,but for now I'd take Kyrie.

TinManJoshua
02-18-2013, 04:31 PM
Kyrie is most definitely a point guard. He can pass the ball very well. But a contested jumper from him is still a better shot than a wide open corner three from CJ Miles.

Pace Maker
02-18-2013, 04:40 PM
Not a knock on Paul George by any means, but I would take Kyrie. He is a Chris Paul Jr, albeit a worse passer but a better finisher.

PGisthefuture
02-18-2013, 04:49 PM
I was thinking Kyrie at first, but then I got to thinking... If you look at the recent history of the league all of the biggest stars have been wing players. You have Kobe, KD, LeBron, etc. Also, like it's been mentioned, Paul can guard LeBron, bring up the ball, and score. I think Paul has a more all-around game than Kyrie. The only thing Kyrie is noticeably better than PG at is scoring. Everybody wants to compare Kyrie to Chris Paul, but he really doesn't get his teammates involved that much. I think the comparison to Gilbert Arenas without the off-court troubles is a good comparison actually. Speaking of Chris Paul, he is a great point guard, the best in the league. He has never won a ring though, the point guard position is important, but it is clear that wings win championships in this era at least.

I am not trying to knock Kyrie, it is obvious that he is very talented. I also think Paul has a ways to go if he is going to be mentioned in the same breath as LeBron, Kobe, and Durant. I honestly don't know if he'll ever be that good. If I'm going to start a franchise though, I think I'll have to go with PG.

On a side note: I have also recently thought about Paul being the next guy that Uncle Drew picks up. That would be awesome.

Cousy47
02-18-2013, 04:49 PM
Since the poll said "Who do you want", I went with PG. Kyrie is great, he's going to be a superstar, he's never going to be a 6'10", defensive stopper at 3 position, rebounding, scoring threat all over the floor, Paul George! JMO

TinManJoshua
02-18-2013, 04:57 PM
http://youtu.be/s26uLHAEwIo

Trader Joe
02-18-2013, 05:00 PM
Had anyone seen this? Dunno how I missed, but I remember PG got some pub along with Kyrie that they were the two young guns who looked like they belonged in those runs in Vegas last summer.

This story is hilarious.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/32115/kyrie-irving-challenges-kobe-bryant-to-50000-game-of-one-on-one

pumpk35
02-18-2013, 05:12 PM
Don't reach young blood.

HAHA! Logged in to thank that one!

xtacy
02-18-2013, 05:14 PM
I love Paul George, but really? Maybe it's just me, but I would take Kyrie without question.

no it's not just you.

BornReady
02-18-2013, 05:38 PM
Kyrie is unbelievable. He's young, he's surprisingly big for his position, and there isn't anything he can't do. There aren't any holes in his game right now, and most importantly, Kyrie has that ever so elusive killer instinct that will make him a superstar. Mark my word, Kyrie will be the best player in the NBA in 5 years.

brownjake43
02-18-2013, 05:46 PM
Now this is unbelievable to me. I thought it was Paul George hands down, I was shocked to see the results. I live in Ohio so I get every Cavs game, Kyrie Irving has turned into one the most overrated players in the game, and I love his game offensively. But his defense is lacking big time, while PG is one of the best defenders in the game at his position. Kyries team is near the bottom of the East, and they had their own Joakim Noah for half of the season thus far in Varejo, also have solid role players in Waiters, Gee, and Thompson. Kyries court vision is also lacking considering he is a Point Guard. He is an unbelievable ball handler and scorer, but wow I am shocked a group of Pacer fans would take Kyrie over Paul George, absolutely shocked. This shows how much people only watch the ball when they watch basketball games.

brownjake43
02-18-2013, 05:58 PM
So if Cleveland called up the Pacers and said Kyrie for Paul, you guys are all doing it huh? I don't think anyone can accuse PD of being homers anymore.

No kidding. This shocks me, very few homers on this board. No way I trade PG for Kyrie, but thats just me I guess.

owl
02-18-2013, 06:23 PM
Now this is unbelievable to me. I thought it was Paul George hands down, I was shocked to see the results. I live in Ohio so I get every Cavs game, Kyrie Irving has turned into one the most overrated players in the game, and I love his game offensively. But his defense is lacking big time, while PG is one of the best defenders in the game at his position. Kyries team is near the bottom of the East, and they had their own Joakim Noah for half of the season thus far in Varejo, also have solid role players in Waiters, Gee, and Thompson. Kyries court vision is also lacking considering he is a Point Guard. He is an unbelievable ball handler and scorer, but wow I am shocked a group of Pacer fans would take Kyrie over Paul George, absolutely shocked. This shows how much people only watch the ball when they watch basketball games.

True. Defense wins championships supposedly so I will stick with PG. Bigs take a little longer to develope.
PG was still growing as of last year and getting used to his size. Increased strength will come with time. Plus
he is driven to win.

SkipperZ
02-18-2013, 06:32 PM
anyone else 3 years into the league or less and I would say PG, but kyrie is on another level from everyone else

The Big Smooth
02-18-2013, 06:55 PM
The thread title was poorly constructed on my part. Neither one of these guys are the "Best Young All-Star."

Kevin Durant isn't even 25, and then you have guys like Griffin, Harden, and Westbrook who are all younger than him.

I should have said "Best All-Star born in the '90's."

Paul is better than Griffin.

shags
02-18-2013, 07:20 PM
It's a tough choice for who is better. But I'll say this. Both are locks to be on the 2014 U.S. World Championship team, and they'll probably be starting. Irving and Harden in the backcourt, with George, Griffin, and either Aldridge, Brook Lopez, or Anthony Davis at center.

yoadknux
02-18-2013, 08:17 PM
I think Kyrie is the obvious answer & there's no comparison between them. He has "superstar" written all over him.

tnasty4l
02-18-2013, 09:32 PM
Pg all day long.kyrie is alright,but i think he is little bit over rated for now.in our system you need wings that can score.besides hes not great assist man.in our system hell be a sligthly better g hill.

bshall
02-18-2013, 09:37 PM
Pg all day long.kyrie is alright,but i think he is little bit over rated for now.in our system you need wings that can score.besides hes not great assist man.in our system hell be a sligthly better g hill.

When it comes down to the games elite players it doesn't matter what system you run. You change your system to fit with your stars, not the other way around. This is something the Lakers need to figure out.

And comparing Kyrie to George Hill is absolutely insane. Irving was better than George Hill the second he was drafted, and that's in any system.

tnasty4l
02-18-2013, 09:56 PM
I guess your right about the system,but some coaches are stubborn about the way they run their teams.but i wasnt comparing kyrie to hill i was ju st saying with our weapons hed just be a spot up shooter with hes lack of passing.but maybe with better talent the assists goes up.id stil take pg because i think he is better.besides he was number 1 and pg was 10 hes supposed to be better.

MrHale
02-18-2013, 10:42 PM
I think its no question kyrie at this moment is better then george. Would pacers trade george for kyrie? No.. would cavs trade kyrie for George? Hell no.. with how both teams are built there the perfect fit for what they got goin on right now.. i would say there both untradeable

SMosley21
02-18-2013, 11:01 PM
I think it's awesome that we even have the ability to make this a serious debate. That means PG is really damn good. The homer in me says I'd take Paul but I'm on record as saying Kyrie is my favorite point guard in the association already.

*astrisk*
02-18-2013, 11:07 PM
If you are asking me who I would take first if I was starting a franchise, Paul or Kyrie, I think it is obviously, Paul.. In the history of the NBA, there have been only a handful of Elite PGs to lead their teams to championships. If you eliminate the PGs who were teamed up with ELITE #1 overall pick Big Men, the list becomes only a handful in the NBAs history... PG is a phenomenol defender with above avg. Scoring potential. He can guard 3 positions at an elite level. I think defense deserves the edge over offense, as it "wins championships"...

PG

The Future
02-18-2013, 11:20 PM
This vote should be closer IMO.

Kyrie Irving is a tremendous scorer but what else does he do well?

He is a average passer at the PG position and DOES NOT play DEFENSE at all. Watch on league pass if you dont believe me. One of the bigger liabilities at the point guard position defensively.

On the other hand, what doesn't Paul George do well?

I'm not saying I would take George over Irving but its awfully close since Irving is poor defensively and isn't that great at passing the rock. Amazing scorer though.

mattie
02-18-2013, 11:25 PM
And comparing Kyrie to George Hill is absolutely insane. Irving was better than George Hill the second he was drafted, and that's in any system.

This is so true. Irving is a STUD. He's so much better than Hill it's not a dicussion.

But.

As official PD George Hill apologist, I have to explain why I'd much rather have Hill than Kyrie Irving.

When it comes to the makeup of a contending team, it is so much easier to contain a pointguard than nearly every other player on the court.

It's the reason George Hill actually outplayed Kyrie in two prior games this season. Dynamic points like Kyrie will always have that problem of being short, and when they play defenses like the Pacers which you see in the playoffs on the regular, they'll get slowed because of shot blockers and limiting three pointers.

Vogels D limits three's at all costs so Hill went over the top on PnR's every time forcing Irving to drive either for the open (low quality) jumper or drive to the basket to somehow find a way to shoot over Roy Hibbert. That's just not a recipe for success.

On the other hand, in nearly every system Hill is a low option that requires minimal defensive attention. As such a physically imposing point guard, he'll always find opportunities to score a reletively efficient 15 points no matter what. He's longer than the opposing points, he's stronger and he'll always have a few open looks from the outside. (because the team is focused on stopping PG, Granger and West).

Kyrie will always dominate the regular season but come playoff time he's going to struggle to score, unless another major dynamic player can take the pressure off. Is that going to happen when Kyrie is paid huge max contracts? Cleveland will hope so, but we'll have to see.

Meanwhile, Hill has played with Granger, West, George, Ginobili, Duncan, and Parker. He'll always have the opportunity to play with those guys on that level his entire career.

Now when you spend your money on a dynamic wing like Paul George, even though he's not on the scoring level of Kyrie, when it comes to slowing down PG in the playoffs it becomes a much difficult task. You're not going to limit open looks from the outside because he's 6'10. You're going to have trouble limiting his looks in the lane because he's 6'10". He's not quite as skilled yet, but really the biggest limit to PG's scoring is himself. It's not like defenders can do a whole lot to slow Paul George down.

This is the reason I'll take an average PG like Hill/Conley over superstar points. I'll spend my money towards obtaining a superstar wing...

With that said, Cleveland really has no choice, and it isn't as if it is impossible for them to turn that team into true contenders. Of course they can. I just think it is easier the way the Pacers are going about it.

15th parallel
02-18-2013, 11:39 PM
Pretty good arguments here. Anyway, here's my take on this:

PG and Kyrie are pretty good young players right now that may turn special in the near future. Both have their advantages over the other, it just depends now on how you build the team with them as one of your main core.

PG has one of the really rare physical gifts for a wing player, and that's why he was drafted so high. He's very tall for a 2-3 wing position, very mobile and athletic, and has very long wingspan that gives him the defensive advantage over other counterparts. It just needs time to develop a player him into one of the premier wing guys in the league as it took him 3 years plus the loss of Danny this year. If you have the time and the ability to invest on a player like him, who has the potential to be a better overall player than Kyrie, then he's the better pick of the two.

Kyrie on the other hand is holding one of the two highly-valued positions in the NBA (Center being the other). And practically he's NBA ready by the time he was drafted at a very young age compared to PG. He just needs some fine tuning for him to reach CP3-level of success. He may not have the elite-level court vision yet, but his overall offense is already superstar level. Can you imagine a player like him on the current Pacers squad? He'll play PnR or PnP all day long with West or Hibbert and will be the money play on offense. If you want a more ready player then Kyrie is the better choice. Of course, the concern always with Kyrie is his durability, but it's a risk you want to take if you want a point guard that may have the potential to be on par with CP3 in the near future. BTW, CP3 had some troubling injuries back then in NO and right now he's playing one of his best career years as a pro even if he's missing some games this season.

Now, if I will take one of them to build my team, I will take PG instead of Kyrie simply because of rare physical gifts that may not come until another decade. It's always a risk to bank on raw players as compared to developed guys like Kyrie, but developing raw but physically-gifted players like PG can reward you a league-changing superstar in the future. Think of guys like KG, TMac, Kobe, LeBron (a special case of being physically gifted but at the same time already developed to be NBA ready) and JO (just a few seasons, but still...) are just a few examples. Just remember that rewards from these kinds of guys can only be reaped with patience if you are a GM or coach.

Day-V
02-18-2013, 11:39 PM
Like someone said earlier, when it comes to an Young Wing with Superstar Potential and a Young Point Guard with Superstar Potential, you take the Wing every time, for the simple fact: Name the last time a dynamic Point Guard has won a title. Tony Parker, maybe? Other than that, it's all 2's and 3's that are the guys winning most titles.

Cactus Jax
02-18-2013, 11:43 PM
I think if there were a 3rd option of I like both equally, that would be the winning option. As I had said, I may pull the trigger on the deal but I'd be scared crazy because PG could become an MVP type 2/3, which is better than an MVP type point 1, especially with the Pacers current system. I only really prefer Kyrie because I think he's a safer superstar pick.

Dr. Awesome
02-18-2013, 11:48 PM
I hate you for making me vote against Paul George.

Kid Minneapolis
02-19-2013, 12:14 AM
More wings win rings because there's more wings. It's just standard probability.

Sent from my KFJWI using Tapatalk 2

aamcguy
02-19-2013, 12:21 AM
I hate you for making me vote against Paul George.

I kind of agree with this, but I think the way the question is asked makes me feel better about it. If I had to pick 1 to build around, I would pick Irving. But I think you would have to think hard about it because it's George does as many "how did he do that?" things on defense as Irving does on offense.

But if we were to trade George for Irving, would I be happy about it? No way. At least not for a while and I learned to love Irving. But as a fan I believe I am entitled to give the edge to the player that I've grow to enjoy watching already.

BornReady
02-19-2013, 12:51 AM
I could be going crazy here, but I don't understand how anybody can really knock on Kyrie's court vision or passing. You've got to remember, he's starting alongside Gee (a d-leaguer at best) Waiters, who is too raw to be a consistent threat (but I do think will be good in the future) and Thompson who is just...Thompson. Kyrie has great synergy with Varejao, but has only had Varejao for a grand total of about 25 games this whole season. Now he's stuck trying to pass the ball to Zeller, who should absolutely not be starting by any stretch of the imagination. That's a far below average starting lineup and is ultimately quite incapable of taking advantage of Kyrie's ability to pass. We saw the Cavs immediately improve with the Memphis trade, and Speights developing quick synergy with Irving as well. I guess my point is, when you're constantly trying to carry your team and don't have even average talent/skill playing alongside you, your court vision and passing will suffer.

I will agree that Irving is an average defender at best, but I don't think its a glaring hole in his game. It just appears to be that way in comparison to his offensive game, which is sick. When you're at the caliber Kyrie is, people are going to nit pick, and that's quite honestly the only flaw people can realistically draw out. I'd personally attribute that partially to his age, and I do think his defense will improve immensely. Furthermore, I don't recall him doing particularly badly, and I don't really recall him getting lit up or absolutely demolished by anybody.

Disclaimer: this is just an opinion

*astrisk*
02-19-2013, 01:44 AM
More wings win rings because there's more wings. It's just standard probability.

Sent from my KFJWI using Tapatalk 2


There is some truth to this... However, here is some more simple math for you... Goal is 10ft high. The majority of players are really tall, they protect the rim. There are generally 8 players taller and bigger than my PG and one guarding who is the same size. The evidence shows that the effect ELITISM has on the game in terms of overall relevence of winning championships goes from big to small. It is easier to impact the game the bigger you are because you get to start closer to the basket and you generally tower over everyone. PGs need more help. They understand this, which is why they are the ones who generally have to stalk big men to play with them. Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Gary Payton, the list is full of coat-tail riding PGs. Big men don't search out to play with ball dominating PGs with limited vision and defense. To be considered an ELITE PG you've got to be able to effect the game in a multitude of ways than just filling it up. Kyrie is very good, don't know if he will become ELITE. George is the same, but his more polished tools and his versatility are the difference. Spo understood the advantage that size and defensive versatility brings to your chances of winning. Championship PGs are a dime a dozen...

rexnom
02-19-2013, 01:54 AM
I'd take Kyrie because he has "best player in the league potential." My only concern with him is that he seems a little injury-prone.

Start at the 1:37 mark of this video. Do we really think Paul could do what Kyrie does to a team as good as OKC here? I doubt he ever will. For those of you who don't feel like watching the video, Kyrie essentially single-handedly handles OKC over the last four minutes. And this has happened several times this season. He's already an elite player.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5RT3gXX2gc

mattie
02-19-2013, 01:57 AM
More wings win rings because there's more wings. It's just standard probability.

Sent from my KFJWI using Tapatalk 2

Some say Chris Paul may be the greatest point guard ever. He's the best at his position period. He's not going to win a championship this year. Possibly in the future if Blake really raises his game, but that would mean Blake would have to become basically the best PF in the game. Or, the best player on his team and the reason they would win. Why can't CP3 win??

Why couldn't two time MVP Steve Nash win if he was so great lead his team to win?

The two best SF's in the game will probably be in the finals this year. Over the last 10 years we've seen championship runs by a team who either had the best center, best powerforward, best small forward, best shooting guard, but not once a dominate point...

If we were going by odds I'd say it'd at least half to be 1 out of 5 wouldn't it?? Unfortunately Jason Kidd fell short. Steve Nash fell short. Deron Williams (utah) fell short, and Chris Paul has and will fall short.

The problem, is if you took every single one of those great teams with great PGs and switched them out with a dominate wing and an average point, the potential of those teams would completely change.

mattie
02-19-2013, 01:57 AM
In a league full of dominate point guards, you would think a dominate point would lead a team to a championship. It just isn't happening.

rexnom
02-19-2013, 02:03 AM
Didn't Magic Johnson win 5 championships followed by Isiah winning 2? All the while Bird only won 3? What am I missing? A decade of MJ?

*astrisk*
02-19-2013, 02:06 AM
Why are Chris Paul and then Rondo considered the 2 ELITE PGs in the NBA? It is because they effect the game multi-dimensionally... Chris Paul is an ELITE scorer, but both have great vision and are ELITE defenders.

Pacerized
02-19-2013, 02:11 AM
There really does seem to be more really good point guards in the game right now then we've had at one time in the past. It surprises me that only 1 is averaging more then 10 assists and he'll fall off the stat chart very soon.

*astrisk*
02-19-2013, 02:15 AM
Didn't Magic Johnson win 5 championships followed by Isiah winning 2? All the while Bird only won 3? What am I missing? A decade of MJ?

Didn't magic play with some of the greatest big men in the history of the game? Didn't he play every position (versatility)? Isn't he one of the greatest passers ever?

Isaiah, chauncey are 2 of the only Elite pgs to win rings in the last 35 years where they had little help offensively from bigs... They also played on the 2 greatest defensive teams in the last 35 years...

rexnom
02-19-2013, 02:24 AM
Didn't magic play with some of the greatest big men in the history of the game? Didn't he play every position (versatility)? Isn't he one of the greatest passers ever?

Isaiah, chauncey are 2 of the only Elite pgs to win rings in the last 35 years where they had little help offensively from bigs... They also played on the 2 greatest defensive teams in the last 35 years...
Isn't this sort of making the Kyrie point? Once he gets some help, he'll start winning.

*astrisk*
02-19-2013, 02:32 AM
Isn't this sort of making the Kyrie point? Once he gets some help, he'll start winning.

Hes gonna start winning like Steve Nash winning? Chris Paul winning? Deron Williams winning?

No. I'm not making the Kyrie point...

*astrisk*
02-19-2013, 02:36 AM
Isn't this sort of making the Kyrie point? Once he gets some help, he'll start winning.

Also, I liken Kyrie's game to Deron Williams and Steph Curry. In terms of tools and health questions...

mattie
02-19-2013, 02:48 AM
Didn't Magic Johnson win 5 championships followed by Isiah winning 2? All the while Bird only won 3? What am I missing? A decade of MJ?

You could say that for sure - A long time ago, Magic dominated, but then I'd argue if your superstar pointguard is 6'9" then sure, he won't run into the problems that all other points run into. And that is getting shut down and slowed by great defenses.

Isaiah Thomas is really the only time a dominate traditional point led his team to a title.

And I'm not saying it is not possible. I'm saying it doesn't happen very much because it is not ideal.

You can build a team around a dominate center and chances are you're going to win a championship- See every dominate center ever.
You can build a team around a dominate powerforward and you can win a championship. (ok this actually hasn't happened much- woops!)
You can build around a dominate SF and win a championship. See nearly every dominate SF ever.
You can build a team around a dominate 2 guard. See every dominate 2 ever.

Dominate points? You have Isaiah and Magic. Magic wasn't a traditional point but a 6'9" do everything superstar. Of course he would win. That leaves us with 1 traditional point guard that won.

The rest didn't. Stockton, Nash, Paul, etc.

It's not that these players hinder title chances. It's the fact that if you spend all your money one a great point guard, you're probably going to miss out on a key ingredient that almost every championship team has ever had. Some 2-5 player who could score the ball at will, or completely own the opposing team defensively.

In the future, I'll count PG against any Kyrie team no matter what as long as Kyrie is the best player.. Because worst case scenario they'll just throw PG on Kyrie and slow him down. That's what you can do with a great wing.

No point has ever had a major effect defensively.

Heisenberg
02-19-2013, 02:51 AM
More wings win rings
say that 3 times fast

mattie
02-19-2013, 03:00 AM
To be clear I'm not saying you can't win with a superstar point. I'm just saying it isn't the ideal way to build a team. Obvious if you have a ton of talent all the way through out your team, and CP3 is your starting point, you're probably going to win.

I'll give you an example of how a team could use this reasoning and possibly overnight build an absolute juggernaut.

What if the Clippers decided to trade CP3?? They send CP3 and a draft pick out east for 'Melo, and Iman Shumpart. I think that team would be a powerhouse.

jordan/griffin/'melo/billups/bledsoe

Holytitties.

And that's not even the best deal they could get out of CP3. CP3 is considered top five in the NBA.

rexnom
02-19-2013, 04:08 AM
LA Clippers 33-11 (0.750) with Chris Paul, 6-6 (0.500) without him. And I'm not sure that they won't win the championship this year. They are surely contenders.

I think a Paul swap with any player in the league, save LeBron James and possibly Kevin Durant, would drop that team from contention.

mattie
02-19-2013, 04:39 AM
Eh maybe. Who knows.

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 05:44 AM
Do we really think Paul could do what Kyrie does to a team as good as OKC here?

Not as good as Kyrie. But the main problem still remains. Kyrie is a PG.

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 05:51 AM
When it comes to the makeup of a contending team, it is so much easier to contain a pointguard than nearly every other player on the court.


Amen, brother ;)

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 06:08 AM
Didn't Magic Johnson win 5 championships followed by Isiah winning 2? All the while Bird only won 3? What am I missing? A decade of MJ?

Magic Johnson is 6'9. In his rookie season, he won Finals MVP while starting at Center in Game 6 and dropping 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists and 3 steals. Throughout his career he played every position. He never stopped being 6'9 which is something that largely eliminated the problem that *astrisk* pointed out.

Size wins.

Yes, Isiah did win 2 rings. That's true and since him no other superstar PG has done this. But Isiah also played along Joe Dumars and Bill Laimbeer in one of the most physical teams of that time. He did won but so did the system in which he played.

cgg
02-19-2013, 08:42 AM
I don't watch Cavs games, but I will say that in a league where Lebron James exists, it's very nice to have a Paul George.

BRushWithDeath
02-19-2013, 09:07 AM
You could say that for sure - A long time ago, Magic dominated, but then I'd argue if your superstar pointguard is 6'9" then sure, he won't run into the problems that all other points run into. And that is getting shut down and slowed by great defenses.

Isaiah Thomas is really the only time a dominate traditional point led his team to a title.

And I'm not saying it is not possible. I'm saying it doesn't happen very much because it is not ideal.

You can build a team around a dominate center and chances are you're going to win a championship- See every dominate center ever.
You can build a team around a dominate powerforward and you can win a championship. (ok this actually hasn't happened much- woops!)
You can build around a dominate SF and win a championship. See nearly every dominate SF ever.
You can build a team around a dominate 2 guard. See every dominate 2 ever.

Dominate points? You have Isaiah and Magic. Magic wasn't a traditional point but a 6'9" do everything superstar. Of course he would win. That leaves us with 1 traditional point guard that won.

The rest didn't. Stockton, Nash, Paul, etc.

It's not that these players hinder title chances. It's the fact that if you spend all your money one a great point guard, you're probably going to miss out on a key ingredient that almost every championship team has ever had. Some 2-5 player who could score the ball at will, or completely own the opposing team defensively.

In the future, I'll count PG against any Kyrie team no matter what as long as Kyrie is the best player.. Because worst case scenario they'll just throw PG on Kyrie and slow him down. That's what you can do with a great wing.

No point has ever had a major effect defensively.

This post dominants the whole thread.

Mackey_Rose
02-19-2013, 09:41 AM
I find it curious how many people are willing to attribute many of these recent championships to the fact that the best player on the team was an all-important wing, and ignore the fact that those wings are, without exception, the greatest players of their generation. Since Jordan retired, none of those wings who won titles (except Lebron last year, who had another generational level great wing player beside him) did so without the help of an all-time great big man as well. Jordan had a great run, but like Lebron, he also had a great wing player with him as well, but more importantly he was the greatest player of all time.

It seems to me that what position the best player plays, is mostly irrelevant. It's more about how great that player is, and what kind of team he has around him.

Saying point guards can't effect the game as much as a wing is just crazy, in my opinion. This question shouldn't be about which position is the most important, point guard or wing. It should be about which player has a chance to turn into the better individual player, Paul George or Kyrie Irving.

owl
02-19-2013, 09:41 AM
This post dominants the whole thread.


Made me laugh.

Kemo
02-19-2013, 10:02 AM
Paul George all the way , till the wheels fall off.....


Asking this question is pretty similar to rewinding time , some 20 years ago and asking a Pacers fan ..... Reggie or Isaiah?

Except in my opinion Paul George is going to end up being the one to have the championship rings when it is all said and done... I don't believe Irving, will be able to be the Cav's "franchise player" and lead Cleveland to a championship. Only way I see a championship in his future, is by pulling a "Lebron" and either going and teaming up with 2 other superstars, or unless he can get them to come play with him.... But that's just my opinion....but YMMV .., and I really enjoy watching him play.... he is dayum good...so don't get me wrong... I just think George is THE full package, and has superstar/franchise player written all over him... I mean damn, he is THIS good already, and I STILL don't see his ceiling yet.... it's crazy... I think the sky's the limit for this kid...


.

BRushWithDeath
02-19-2013, 10:29 AM
Asking this question is pretty similar to rewinding time , some 20 years ago and asking a Pacers fan ..... Reggie or Isaiah?
Who in their right mind would pick Reggie?

Trader Joe
02-19-2013, 12:08 PM
Who in their right mind would pick Reggie?

Right, see it's not even close. Reggie was all about big moments, but statistically what Paul is doing at 22 is already better than pretty much anything Reggie did save 1 or 2 seasons. Comparing Reggie and Isaiah is just not an argument Reggie can win. Look at some of Isaiah's peak seasons, I think he had a season where he basically averaged 22 and 14 in the mid 80s. That is pretty crazy stuff.

Trader Joe
02-19-2013, 12:11 PM
I find it curious how many people are willing to attribute many of these recent championships to the fact that the best player on the team was an all-important wing, and ignore the fact that those wings are, without exception, the greatest players of their generation. Since Jordan retired, none of those wings who won titles (except Lebron last year, who had another generational level great wing player beside him) did so without the help of an all-time great big man as well. Jordan had a great run, but like Lebron, he also had a great wing player with him as well, but more importantly he was the greatest player of all time.

It seems to me that what position the best player plays, is mostly irrelevant. It's more about how great that player is, and what kind of team he has around him.

Saying point guards can't effect the game as much as a wing is just crazy, in my opinion. This question shouldn't be about which position is the most important, point guard or wing. It should be about which player has a chance to turn into the better individual player, Paul George or Kyrie Irving.

I think point guards do affect the game, but at some point it starts to become diminishing returns into the total impact of the game, I don't know it's a tough question. I'm a sucker for point guards because my favorite thing to do when playing ball is setting people up to score, so I lean towards liking them more. Like I've said since page 1, Paul's evolution as a creator over the last 15-20 games is what has moved him in front of Kyrie for me, in just my humblest of opinions, and by a slight margin. Heck in February, they are averaging the same amount of assists. Kyrie is the better scorer. Paul is the much better defender. Paul is the better rebounder, but Kyrie is not bad on the boards for a point.

Like has been said multiple times, it's just amazing we're able to actually discuss Paul alongside Kyrie right now. Never would have guessed that four months ago. Kyrie is still my favorite young player in the league that is not on the P's and it's amazing to have a guy that can stand in the same breath as him.

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 12:47 PM
I think point guards do affect the game, but at some point it starts to become diminishing returns into the total impact of the game, I don't know it's a tough question.

Point guard of course affect the game. They affect the game because they implement the coach's system. They are the ones that control the pace of the game and they must be able to make good decisions. But a player does not have to be a top 10 player to do those things. A good but not great PG is more than capable of contributing a lot in his team's title chances.

Good points that know how to dictate the game but don't dominate the ball. That's what wins championships. A Chauncey Billups type of point.

Mackey_Rose
02-19-2013, 12:56 PM
Finals MVP's by Position in the post-Jordan era:

2012 - SF (Lebron James)
2011 - PF (Dirk Nowitzki)
2010 - SG (Kobe Bryant)
2009 - SG (Kobe Bryant)
2008 - SF (Paul Pierce)
2007 - PG (Tony Parker)
2006 - SG (Dwyane Wade)
2005 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)
2004 - PG (Chauncey Billups)
2003 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)
2002 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
2001 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
2000 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
1999 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)

There have been 14 NBA Finals since Jordan retired. The MVP of those Finals has been won by 9 different players. 2 PG's, 2 SG's, 2 SF's, 1 PF, 1 C, and 1 PF/C.

So what is more important? Position, or the pure greatness of the player, regardless of position?

Pacer Fan
02-19-2013, 01:03 PM
When in doubt, be a Homer!

Mackey_Rose
02-19-2013, 01:31 PM
When in doubt, be a Homer!

I really don't think picking Paul George in this debate makes you a homer. I think there is a very legitimate argument that can be made for both of them.

I don't think what position they play is a determining factor, and I definitely don't think it's a clear cut choice either way.

cgg
02-19-2013, 01:34 PM
I really don't think picking Paul George in this debate makes you a homer. I think there is a very legitimate argument that can be made for both of them.

I don't think what position they play is a determining factor, and I definitely don't think it's a clear cut choice either way.

I think position is a factor when the best 2 players in the league are wings and slowing them down is going to contribute to your success. I don't know how high on the list of factors it is, but it is a factor.

Naptown_Seth
02-19-2013, 01:37 PM
This is tough, I love Kyrie, earlier this season I expressed he may be my favorite young player to watch in the NBA. But historically big time wings win more than big time point guards. Paul has physical gifts that Kyrie will never have.
That's my view. As we discussed during the game, there was reason Spo (too late) took out Kryie and put Paul back in late in that game - he wanted to win and needed defense and threes.

Irving is amazing, maybe better handles that Chris Paul. But PG can do everything and that includes guarding Irving at times. Irving is more of a very talented specialist while PG has become the "whatever you need done" guy while somehow being really strong in most of those areas. He doesn't have one thing he does as well as Irving's best thing (handles) but he impacts the game more in total.

Naptown_Seth
02-19-2013, 01:51 PM
Finals MVP's by Position in the post-Jordan era:

2012 - SF (Lebron James)
2011 - PF (Dirk Nowitzki)
2010 - SG (Kobe Bryant)
2009 - SG (Kobe Bryant)
2008 - SF (Paul Pierce)
2007 - PG (Tony Parker)
2006 - SG (Dwyane Wade)
2005 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)
2004 - PG (Chauncey Billups)
2003 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)
2002 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
2001 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
2000 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
1999 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)

There have been 14 NBA Finals since Jordan retired. The MVP of those Finals has been won by 9 different players. 2 PG's, 2 SG's, 2 SF's, 1 PF, 1 C, and 1 PF/C.

So what is more important? Position, or the pure greatness of the player, regardless of position?
But let's be fair. There is ONE PG on the list that wasn't paired with another Finals MVP winner. Parker was great, no doubt, but Duncan was still on that team.

You are going by number of players who won at each position, but let's look at MVP wins by position regardless of repeats.
Now there are 2 PG, 3 SG, 2 SF, 1 PF, 6 C (because Duncan was doing as a true center/low post guy). And if you break down the roles it's clear that Dirk as a non-defender, non-power rebounder was really just a glorified go-to shooter SF, not a true PF type.

So what wins you titles is a guy that can defend the wing or the rim and can attack on offense so bad that you can't do much about it. You could feed Tim and Shaq in the post and they couldn't be stopped. Otherwise you had to have a guy with good length that could hit jumpers or get to the FT line when the defense got tough.

The NBA had seen A TON of ultra-quick break-you-down PGs that could score (AI, Marbury, etc). I'm not even counting Nash because he was as much a facilitator for others. He scored to keep you honest more than operating as your top 1-2 shooting threat. And none of those guys carried their team to a title.

Even Billups didn't quite work that way. He was a unique guy on a very balanced team built on defense. He hit the big jumpers partly out of the Detroit system more than a Kobe "now I'll just beat you" way.

Parker is the only guy that would be close to that Irving "break you down and score" style, and again he had Duncan on the court with him. And the Spurs are the best "system" team in the NBA thanks to Pop.



Irving is great and will be great. Chris Paul might have a chance at a title with the LAC (though they don't seem like favorites vs Durant or SAS). But bang for buck it has seemed like having your main scorer be a small PG isn't a good path toward a title.

Trader Joe
02-19-2013, 01:53 PM
To be fair Seth, Irving is not a small PG. He's not the mismatch PG can be, but he's not small either.

Mackey_Rose
02-19-2013, 01:57 PM
But let's be fair. There is ONE PG on the list that wasn't paired with another Finals MVP winner. Parker was great, no doubt, but Duncan was still on that team.

You are going by number of players who won at each position, but let's look at MVP wins by position regardless of repeats.
Now there are 2 PG, 3 SG, 2 SF, 1 PF, 6 C (because Duncan was doing as a true center/low post guy). And if you break down the roles it's clear that Dirk as a non-defender, non-power rebounder was really just a glorified go-to shooter SF, not a true PF type.

So what wins you titles is a guy that can defend the wing or the rim and can attack on offense so bad that you can't do much about it. You could feed Tim and Shaq in the post and they couldn't be stopped. Otherwise you had to have a guy with good length that could hit jumpers or get to the FT line when the defense got tough..

You are right, there is one PG that wasn't paired with another Finals' MVP winner in Chauncey Billups. Beyond him, there are only 3 other players who could qualify under that restriction. Paul Pierce didn't have another Finals' MVP winner with him, but he did have 2 other Hall of Famers. Kobe had another 1st ballot Hall of Famer in Pau Gasol. Dirk is easily the most impressive, because he did so much on his own. That was an absolutely incredible run of shooting he had in the 2011 playoffs, and is something we aren't likely to ever see matched any time soon.

Why does the fact they most of these guys were matched up with other Finals' MVP caliber players only work against the PG's?

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 05:58 PM
So what is more important? Position, or the pure greatness of the player, regardless of position?

I think that it's relatively important to note that those 2 PGs who won were of the scoring variety and not the true PG one.

Mackey_Rose
02-19-2013, 08:56 PM
I think that it's relatively important to note that those 2 PGs who won were of the scoring variety and not the true PG one.

Kyrie Irving certainly fits more into the mold of Tony Parker than he does Chris Paul.

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 09:03 PM
Kyrie Irving certainly fits more into the mold of Tony Parker than he does Chris Paul.

Agreed. Who will be his Duncan? ;)

Mackey_Rose
02-19-2013, 09:06 PM
Agreed. Who will be his Duncan? ;)

That is entirely irrelevant in regards to this thread.

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 09:19 PM
That is entirely irrelevant in regards to this thread.

True. But it isn't entirely irrelevant with the possibility of a point guard winning a ring.

PR07
02-19-2013, 09:45 PM
If I had no previous allegiances and you told me to pick one, I'd probably pick Irving. I think he plays a position that is harder to fill in point guard, the field general of the court.

However, the homer in me would pick George.

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 09:57 PM
I think he plays a position that is harder to fill.


That isn't true in this era, though. This is an amazing generation of point guards. There are several good point guards out there as the last few drafts were quite deep in PG production.

Wings? I'd say that a quality wing is harder to find at the moment than a quality point guard.

PR07
02-19-2013, 10:05 PM
That isn't true in this era, though. This is an amazing generation of point guards. There are several good point guards out there as the last few drafts were quite deep in PG production.

Wings? I'd say that a quality wing is harder to find at the moment than a quality point guard.

I'm not sure we can say that, I mean the Pacers have arguably two all-star caliber wings. In the past year, we've seen three all-star caliber wings get moved in Andre Iguodala, James Harden, and Rudy Gay. When's the last time an all-star PG in their prime got moved?

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 10:24 PM
When's the last time an all-star PG in their prime got moved?

Chris Paul?

Also, I'm not talking about the top players in their positions either. I'm not talking about All-Stars only. I'm talking about those players that are not of an All-Star level but are pretty damn good. The Mike Conleys and George Hills of the league. They are significantly better than the Caron Butlers and the Alonzo Gees of the league ;)

spazzxb
02-19-2013, 10:44 PM
When it comes down to the games elite players it doesn't matter what system you run. You change your system to fit with your stars, not the other way around. This is something the Lakers need to figure out.

And comparing Kyrie to George Hill is absolutely insane. Irving was better than George Hill the second he was drafted, and that's in any system.

Dwight Howard needs to realize he isn't as good as he thinks. He is a freak, however I believe he cares more about his own numbers than winning. H e needs to be a dominant rebounder and shot blocker, but is better as a complimentary player on offense. Not sure there is any team that would satisfy him and be successful. Howard wants to be the focus of the offense, however his offensive skills are limited.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

Mackey_Rose
02-19-2013, 10:44 PM
Chris Paul?

Also, I'm not talking about the top players in their positions either. I'm not talking about All-Stars only. I'm talking about those players that are not of an All-Star level but are pretty damn good. The Mike Conleys and George Hills of the league. They are significantly better than the Caron Butlers and the Alonzo Gees of the league ;)

You think those guys are on similar tiers of their respective positions?

Nuntius
02-19-2013, 10:53 PM
You think those guys are on similar tiers of their respective positions?

That's the point. They are not. The good but not great PGs are far better than the good but not great SFs. Hill is supposed to be in the 15 range for PGs, right? Which is the 15th best SF? Which is the 15th best SG?

That's my point. This is a great generation for PGs. The availability is sky high. That's my argument.

Wings are more rare at the moment and that's why I will prefer a potential elite Wing from a potential elite PG.

PS: I also believe that you don't need an elite PG to win a ring, though. You need a good, complete, reliable player that will implement the team's system.

Mackey_Rose
02-19-2013, 10:57 PM
That's the point. They are not. The good but not great PGs are far better than the good but not great SFs. Hill is supposed to be in the 15 range for PGs, right? Which is the 15th best SF? Which is the 15th best SG?

That's my point. This is a great generation for PGs. The availability is sky high. That's my argument.

Wings are more rare at the moment and that's why I will prefer a potential elite Wing from a potential elite PG.

The 15th best wing is not Alonzo Gee or Caron Butler. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Nuntius
02-20-2013, 05:06 AM
The 15th best wing is not Alonzo Gee or Caron Butler. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Feel free to tell me who is the 15th best SF and who is the 15th best SG :)

Mackey_Rose
02-20-2013, 09:45 AM
Feel free to tell me who is the 15th best SF and who is the 15th best SG :)

Why did you make the jump from just "wing," to now the two wing positions are separated? Which one is Paul George?

BRushWithDeath
02-20-2013, 10:11 AM
Why did you make the jump from just "wing," to now the two wing positions are separated? Which one is Paul George?

Regardless, you're not getting into the Gee/Butler class even if you do make a relatively arbitrary separation like that.

Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, DeRozan, Mayo, Crawford, Klay Thompson, J.R. Smith, Redick, Afflalo, Kevin Martin, Beal, Gordon, Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Dudley

That's 18 SG's off the top of my head who are clearly better than either guy. I'm sure there are more.

LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Igoudala, Turner, Parsons, Marion, Metta, Dunleavy, Beasley, Brewer, Tayshaun

There's 19 SF's. I'm probably forgetting some of them as well.

But yes, the 15th best point guard is better than the 15th best SG or SF if you're going to make that separation. If you lump wings together, as you should, they're not even close.

In respect to Kyrie vs. PG, I also don't understand at all why it matters what position they play in regards to their ability to get their team to a title. Yes, historically, there have been more wings and bigs win titles as a teams best player than point guards. Because there have been more of them that are the best players in the league. The amount of point guards who could be considered a top 3 player at any point in their career is miniscule compared to the amount of wings and bigs who could be considered at that level. If Kyrie is good enough to get into the conversation as a top-3 type player, he's good enough to be the best player on a title winning team. The same applies to PG. The position they play is irrelevant.

So basically, Kyrie doesn't need a Duncan. He needs a Parker and a Ginobli. Kyrie can be the Duncan.

Of course, they have the misfortune of playing at the same time as LeBron and KD so both guys probably won't ever be top-3 players at the same time.

spazzxb
02-20-2013, 01:49 PM
Regardless, you're not getting into the Gee/Butler class even if you do make a relatively arbitrary separation like that.

Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, DeRozan, Mayo, Crawford, Klay Thompson, J.R. Smith, Redick, Afflalo, Kevin Martin, Beal, Gordon, Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Dudley

That's 18 SG's off the top of my head who are clearly better than either guy. I'm sure there are more.

LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Igoudala, Turner, Parsons, Marion, Metta, Dunleavy, Beasley, Brewer, Tayshaun

There's 19 SF's. I'm probably forgetting some of them as well.

But yes, the 15th best point guard is better than the 15th best SG or SF if you're going to make that separation. If you lump wings together, as you should, they're not even close.

In respect to Kyrie vs. PG, I also don't understand at all why it matters what position they play in regards to their ability to get their team to a title. Yes, historically, there have been more wings and bigs win titles as a teams best player than point guards. Because there have been more of them that are the best players in the league. The amount of point guards who could be considered a top 3 player at any point in their career is miniscule compared to the amount of wings and bigs who could be considered at that level. If Kyrie is good enough to get into the conversation as a top-3 type player, he's good enough to be the best player on a title winning team. The same applies to PG. The position they play is irrelevant.

So basically, Kyrie doesn't need a Duncan. He needs a Parker and a Ginobli. Kyrie can be the Duncan.

Of course, they have the misfortune of playing at the same time as LeBron and KD so both guys probably won't ever be top-3 players at the same time.

You can't simply lump them together. Some play both but many 3's are to slow or lack the lateral mobility to guard 2 guards, and many 2's are to short to play 3. P.G. has neither of these weaknesses.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

Kid Minneapolis
02-20-2013, 02:05 PM
Regardless, you're not getting into the Gee/Butler class even if you do make a relatively arbitrary separation like that.

Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, DeRozan, Mayo, Crawford, Klay Thompson, J.R. Smith, Redick, Afflalo, Kevin Martin, Beal, Gordon, Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Dudley

That's 18 SG's off the top of my head who are clearly better than either guy. I'm sure there are more.

LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Igoudala, Turner, Parsons, Marion, Metta, Dunleavy, Beasley, Brewer, Tayshaun

There's 19 SF's. I'm probably forgetting some of them as well.

But yes, the 15th best point guard is better than the 15th best SG or SF if you're going to make that separation. If you lump wings together, as you should, they're not even close.

In respect to Kyrie vs. PG, I also don't understand at all why it matters what position they play in regards to their ability to get their team to a title. Yes, historically, there have been more wings and bigs win titles as a teams best player than point guards. Because there have been more of them that are the best players in the league. The amount of point guards who could be considered a top 3 player at any point in their career is miniscule compared to the amount of wings and bigs who could be considered at that level. If Kyrie is good enough to get into the conversation as a top-3 type player, he's good enough to be the best player on a title winning team. The same applies to PG. The position they play is irrelevant.

So basically, Kyrie doesn't need a Duncan. He needs a Parker and a Ginobli. Kyrie can be the Duncan.

Of course, they have the misfortune of playing at the same time as LeBron and KD so both guys probably won't ever be top-3 players at the same time.

I completely agree that the position doesn't define ones ability to get a ring. People love to point to wings as the ring-getters of late. Well ten years ago it was bigs. Before that it was wings again. Before that it was little guys. It just goes through cycles, and changes every 5-6 years or so. Point being, don't look at stuff like that and determine "well, a PG hasn't won a ring in 6 years, while wings have dominated; therefore PGs are unable of carrying their team to a title." It's a false theory. And like I said earlier in this thread, lil guys suffer from pure probability, because at almost any given time in league history there is a relatively low percentage of dominant PGs compared to wings. Right now we're at a low point of PGs and bigs... wings are the big constituent these days. We don't know who's going to dominate the league 5 years from now. I could see LeBron still being a factor... maybe Durant is hauling in ring after ring? Maybe PG ascends to heights none of us can predict? Maybe Kyrie is hauling in his second ring in two years? We don't know. I'm not even trying to predict that. I'm just saying right now and for the foreseeable future, Kyrie Irving is the Andrew Luck of the NBA --- the clear and obvious best player to enter the league in a number of years. He was the top choice in college... in the draft... in his rookie season, and people can look at him and say "Yea, that guy is special." And saying that is no slight to PG, that's like saying "Russell Wilson sucks"... well no, that's not true, in fact Russell Wilson is a beast and a stud and I could completely see him winning a ring before Luck. But Luck, to me is still the blue-chip, high pedigree talent. Russell Wilson is still a very, very, very, very, very good young player, with a chance to be something special, and who like PG was also under-rated and under-appreciated early on and grew into something special.

Nuntius
02-20-2013, 02:19 PM
Why did you make the jump from just "wing," to now the two wing positions are separated? Which one is Paul George?

Good point. I made this point because there are some players that are pretty clearly SGs (Bryant, Wade), some that are pretty clearly SFs (Gay, Granger, Pierce) and some players that tend to blur the lines (Paul George, Iguodala).

Nuntius
02-20-2013, 02:24 PM
Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, DeRozan, Mayo, Crawford, Klay Thompson, J.R. Smith, Redick, Afflalo, Kevin Martin, Beal, Gordon, Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Dudley

That's 18 SG's off the top of my head who are clearly better than either guy. I'm sure there are more.

LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Igoudala, Turner, Parsons, Marion, Metta, Dunleavy, Beasley, Brewer, Tayshaun

There's 19 SF's. I'm probably forgetting some of them as well.


I see. Even if we were to lump them all together as wings.

Would you take Redick, Afflalo, Beal, Gordon (not prime Gordon, this Gordon), Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen (again, this season's Ray Allen), Dudley, Metta, Dunleavy, Brewer, Beasley and Tayshaun (again, this year's Tayshaun) over Conley and Hill?

Kid Minneapolis
02-20-2013, 02:43 PM
An interesting point of contention might be Irving VS. PG on the court. I don't see Irving being tasked to guard PG simply on size... but I could see PG being tasked to guard Irving, because he's shown capable of guarding smaller, quicker guards. PGs ability to defend almost any wing player is astounding. His length, speed, height, ability to stay in front, predict passing lanes, etc, might not be matched in the league right now.

The difference with Irving, though... is that he's not like LeBron --- brute strength, power, speed. He's not like Derrick Rose --- speed, strength, shiftiness.

Irving possesses little of that. His game is completely based on him breaking you down off the dribble using angles, leverage, momentum --- in other words... his mind, and his body control and quickness, good decision-making, good shooter. I could honestly see Irving being able to have success against PG. I could see him breaking PG down off the dribble. Now, that said, I could also see PG giving Kyrie fits here and there. But of all the wing players in the league, I think Kyrie might have more success than most people against PG. That's how strong his 1-on-1 game is. Kyrie isn't just 1-on-1 though... he often breaks down his defender, only to find a cutter or an open man... once he breaks you down, he goes in so many different directions. I am very excited and interested to see what kind of team they put around him. Right now I don't feel like he has any team around him, tbo. And that's one of my concerns with Kyrie is that he landed with such an inept organization, historically speaking. He may never reach the heights he's capable of as long as he's in Cleveland.

Kyrie to me has the highest pure raw skillset of any PG in the league, and that's including CP3 and Deron Williams and Rondo. Right now I'd place those three guys above him, but I don't think that's going to be the case for long. In two years, I think we'll be referring to Kyrie as the best PG in the world.

Trader Joe
02-20-2013, 03:09 PM
I would have said Rose is more skilled than Kyrie, but with the knee now who knows. Kyrie might have the best raw tool kit. BUt you could also make the case that outside of Lebron, PG has the best raw toolkit of any wing.

Kid Minneapolis
02-20-2013, 04:21 PM
Yea, PG does have a very complete skillset, but the only skill of his that I consider "elite" is his defense. His offense is still coming and while effective, far from "elite". He can be shut down or thrown off his game on occasion, and he's not yet at a point where he can score at will at any time.

BRushWithDeath
02-20-2013, 07:51 PM
I see. Even if we were to lump them all together as wings.

Would you take Redick, Afflalo, Beal, Gordon (not prime Gordon, this Gordon), Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen (again, this season's Ray Allen), Dudley, Metta, Dunleavy, Brewer, Beasley and Tayshaun (again, this year's Tayshaun) over Conley and Hill?
A couple of them possibly but now you are comparing a 12-15ish PG to a 25-35ish wing. What is the point?

Nuntius
02-20-2013, 08:02 PM
A couple of them possibly but now you are comparing a 12-15ish PG to a 25-35ish wing. What is the point?

Here are the players you mentioned that I consider clearly better than Hill and Conley:

Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Iguodala.

I consider it a wash with everyone else that I didn't mention the previous post. If you count those players, they are 15th.

So, we're essentialy comparing the 15th PG with the 15th wing (combined SGs and SFs).

BRushWithDeath
02-21-2013, 10:18 AM
Here are the players you mentioned that I consider clearly better than Hill and Conley:

Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Iguodala.

I consider it a wash with everyone else that I didn't mention the previous post. If you count those players, they are 15th.

So, we're essentialy comparing the 15th PG with the 15th wing (combined SGs and SFs).

I cannot grasp what point you're trying to make. Doesn't saying that the 15th best wing is about the same as the 15th best point guard validate that position is irrelevant to the discussion?

Nuntius
02-21-2013, 12:20 PM
I cannot grasp what point you're trying to make. Doesn't saying that the 15th best wing is about the same as the 15th best point guard validate that position is irrelevant to the discussion?

If you're lumping together SGs and SFs as wings then it is irrelevant. If you don't, then it isn't.

SMosley21
02-21-2013, 12:22 PM
Kyrie Irving and Paul George are both amazing young basketball players. We should consider ourselves extremely lucky to have one of them on our team.

Nuntius
02-21-2013, 12:23 PM
Kyrie Irving and Paul George are both amazing young basketball players. We should consider ourselves extremely lucky to have one of them on our team.

Agreed :D

Mackey_Rose
02-21-2013, 12:24 PM
If you're lumping together SGs and SFs as wings then it is irrelevant. If you don't, then it isn't.

Do you even know which side of the argument you are on anymore? You should run for President of whatever country you live in. If your European politics are anything like American politics, your flip flopping would be perfect.

PR07
02-21-2013, 12:35 PM
How many point guards did we have to run through between Mark Jackson and George Hill? It was a neverending carousel.

Yes, today's NBA has a lot of young talent at the position, but historically for us, it's been an incredibly difficult position to fill. I think it's a lot easier to find a good wing than it is a good point guard, and yes, that's because SG and SF are largely interchangeable as far as their position go.

Mackey_Rose
02-21-2013, 12:37 PM
How many point guards did we have to run through between Mark Jackson and George Hill? It was a neverending carousel.

Yes, today's NBA has a lot of young talent at the position, but historically for us, it's been an incredibly difficult position to fill. I think it's a lot easier to find a good wing than it is a good point guard, and yes, that's because SG and SF are largely interchangeable as far as their position go.

The real issue is, it doesn't matter what position any team's best player plays when it comes to winning a championship. It matters how great that best player is.

Nuntius
02-21-2013, 12:41 PM
Do you even know which side of the argument you are on anymore? You should run for President of whatever country you live in. If your European politics are anything like American politics, your flip flopping would be perfect.

Well, my main argument is that I wouldn't choose to build my franchise around a PG as I consider that there are more good PGs around than any other position, I guess :D

PR07
02-21-2013, 01:08 PM
The real issue is, it doesn't matter what position any team's best player plays when it comes to winning a championship. It matters how great that best player is.

True, but all things being considered equal (and in this case it's too early to tell who has more "greatness" between George and Irving), I'm looking at position.

rexnom
02-21-2013, 05:15 PM
I would have said Rose is more skilled than Kyrie, but with the knee now who knows. Kyrie might have the best raw tool kit. BUt you could also make the case that outside of Lebron, PG has the best raw toolkit of any wing.
Kyrie might have the best tool kit. There's some raw things about him. Also a whole lot of developed things about him.

vnzla81
02-24-2013, 03:14 PM
How is Paul George better than Kyrie if according to some people here Paul George is not even better than Danny Granger? hell some people don't even think Paul George is better than David West.

cgg
02-24-2013, 03:21 PM
Chris Paul?

Also, I'm not talking about the top players in their positions either. I'm not talking about All-Stars only. I'm talking about those players that are not of an All-Star level but are pretty damn good. The Mike Conleys and George Hills of the league. They are significantly better than the Caron Butlers and the Alonzo Gees of the league ;)

Deron Williams. Jason Kidd.

cgg
02-24-2013, 03:26 PM
How is Paul George better than Kyrie if according to some people here Paul George is not even better than Danny Granger? hell some people don't even think Paul George is better than David West.

More important to the offense than*

Tyrone Biggums
02-26-2013, 02:15 AM
You have to pick Paul because of potential. No offense to Kyrie but he already is almost as good has he will ever be. Paul has so much room to grow still and he's already averaging almost 18 8 and 4 and is a defensive stopper. That's scary. Kyrie is a 6'3 pg with a lightning quick handle and a deadeye shooter. Paul George is a 6'9 sg with a limited handle who is a streaky shooter and still struggles but has superstar athleticism. If I didn't think Paul could tap into his potential then I'd say Kyrie in a second but from what I've seen this year PG is a man who is finally realizing what he can do on the court. With even limited growth next year PG can be averaging 22 9 and 5. That's crazy

bunt
02-26-2013, 06:10 PM
Not sure if this has been posted anywhere but there was some high praise thrown Paul's way from ESPN chats yesterday. One from Wilbon and the other Michael Wallace. Just a couple interesting perspectives from a couple national guys who watch, talk, and write a lot of basketball.


pj (midlo)

rank your top 10 players today in NBA. my list starts with Lebron (1),
Michael Wallace (3:56 PM)

I know I'm leaving a few guys off, and this is in no particular order after the first two names. Rose and Rondo would be in there somewhere, but I left them out due to injuries. But these were the first 10 to come to my mind. LeBron Durant CP3 Kobe Wade Dwight Parker Duncan P.George Carmelo


Tom (Gery)

Mike - do you buy into the Pacer's being a legitimate threat to the Heat in the playoffs? I like Indy's squad, they play tough defense, but didn't the Heat just beat them 4-2 last year - without Bosh!
mike wilbon (2:01 PM)

Yeah, but Paul George is better now. If I was handing in my All-NBA ballot today, let's see...LeBron and Durant, Kobe...I could put Paul George in that other slot because Chris Paul has missed some games. Maybe CP3 and George fill out my all-NBA team. I'd put him ahead of Carmelo if the Pacers finish ahead of the Knicks, which I think they will. Nobody on Denver ahead of Paul, nobody on Golden State...Tony Parker deserves serious consideration, for sure...Nobody on the Bulls or Nets...George is a better player, a borderline star...he takes over games now. Granger could give them depth off the bench...I think Indiana is the other conference finalist...They won't beat Miami, but could really challenge them.

rexnom
02-27-2013, 03:52 AM
You have to pick Paul because of potential. No offense to Kyrie but he already is almost as good has he will ever be. Paul has so much room to grow still and he's already averaging almost 18 8 and 4 and is a defensive stopper. That's scary. Kyrie is a 6'3 pg with a lightning quick handle and a deadeye shooter. Paul George is a 6'9 sg with a limited handle who is a streaky shooter and still struggles but has superstar athleticism. If I didn't think Paul could tap into his potential then I'd say Kyrie in a second but from what I've seen this year PG is a man who is finally realizing what he can do on the court. With even limited growth next year PG can be averaging 22 9 and 5. That's crazy
Again, Kyrie is two years younger than Paul. I don't understand how you can be so sure he's tapped all of his potential.

rexnom
02-27-2013, 03:54 AM
Not sure if this has been posted anywhere but there was some high praise thrown Paul's way from ESPN chats yesterday. One from Wilbon and the other Michael Wallace. Just a couple interesting perspectives from a couple national guys who watch, talk, and write a lot of basketball.
Wow. How can Tony Parker continue to be so criminally underrated? He's top 5 in the league.

Eraser
02-27-2013, 04:29 AM
Sorry Pacer fans (and I am a lifelong fan), but there isn't one GM in the league that would take Paul George over Kyrie Irving. Yes, PG is a great young player on both sides of the court, but Kyrie is budding superstar. They just don't come along very often. Every other argument doesn't matter next to that one, IMHO.

Team Indy
02-27-2013, 06:34 AM
Mike Wilbon suggested in his chat that Paul George would be on his All NBA 1st team ballot.

Mackey_Rose
02-27-2013, 09:33 AM
Sorry Pacer fans (and I am a lifelong fan), but there isn't one GM in the league that would take Paul George over Kyrie Irving. Yes, PG is a great young player on both sides of the court, but Kyrie is budding superstar. They just don't come along very often. Every other argument doesn't matter next to that one, IMHO.

I get what you are saying, but there is a whole lot of evidence to suggest that Paul George is also a budding superstar.

Trader Joe
02-27-2013, 10:22 AM
I think if you put this poll on a board outside the central division like let's say a Rockets board, a lot of them would pick PG, JMO. Paul's all star performance blew away a lot of people and he has been killing it in our nationally televised games this year. Embrace it.

OlBlu
02-27-2013, 10:33 AM
Sorry Pacer fans (and I am a lifelong fan), but there isn't one GM in the league that would take Paul George over Kyrie Irving. Yes, PG is a great young player on both sides of the court, but Kyrie is budding superstar. They just don't come along very often. Every other argument doesn't matter next to that one, IMHO.

I think a lot of that is the positions they play. Great point guards are highly sought after. Wing players are easy to find. I think they are both great young players but I voted for Irving because he plays the point.....:cool:

Trader Joe
02-27-2013, 10:40 AM
This whole great wing players are easy to find and point guards are so hard to find is ridiculous.

Is there a deeper position in the league right now than point guard?

Sollozzo
02-27-2013, 10:43 AM
Sorry Pacer fans (and I am a lifelong fan), but there isn't one GM in the league that would take Paul George over Kyrie Irving. Yes, PG is a great young player on both sides of the court, but Kyrie is budding superstar. They just don't come along very often. Every other argument doesn't matter next to that one, IMHO.

I don't agree with that at all.

Trader Joe
02-27-2013, 10:51 AM
I can think of one GM who would take PG over Kyrie....probably the bloody Pacers. I just don't blieve for a second that if Kyrie was offered straight up for Paul we would take the deal.

I also don't believe for a second that the Cavs would trade Kyrie for PG. There is a very good chance these guys could be taking over a couple of the superstar mantles that get passed around in the next couple years.

As Wade falls off (and as much as he is runnning from father time, he is), and as Melo and New York continue to not hang banner, Paul and Kyrie will take those spots.

Mackey_Rose
04-17-2013, 09:30 AM
Hopefully, starting this weekend, Paul will make this debatable once again.

Trader Joe
04-17-2013, 12:34 PM
Hopefully, starting this weekend, Paul will make this debatable once again.

Yeah he's dropped it for the past month or so, hasn't he? Bizarre. Hopefully just young legs needing a few days off to recharge. Still need to remember what he did from basically mid Jan to mid March. I think he'll get back there and probably higher, but I just hope it won't take til next fall.

Naptown_Seth
04-17-2013, 12:40 PM
Well if he doesn't get back to at least "maybe ASG" level this will be a short playoff run. As TJoe and I have discussed, Paul doesn't seem to blend well with Roy having it going in the low post.

Pace Maker
04-17-2013, 12:48 PM
It doesn't help that he's been pretty cold from 3, even while getting pretty good looks.

TinManJoshua
04-17-2013, 01:23 PM
Hopefully, starting this weekend, Paul will make this debatable once again.

To be fair to both sides here, Kyrie is taking a lot of heat in Cleveland right now. "Attitude issues". Like not participating in fan appreciation night.

http://www.realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?38471-Kyrie-Irving/page511

Coopdog23
04-17-2013, 01:28 PM
Right now Kyrie is better, but PG has more potential

Mr.ThunderMakeR
04-17-2013, 02:03 PM
To be fair to both sides here, Kyrie is taking a lot of heat in Cleveland right now. "Attitude issues". Like not participating in fan appreciation night.

http://www.realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?38471-Kyrie-Irving/page511Funny how they were talking about adding some veteran talent to win now, and one of the main players discussed was Danny Granger.

Trader Joe
04-17-2013, 02:06 PM
Well if he doesn't get back to at least "maybe ASG" level this will be a short playoff run. As TJoe and I have discussed, Paul doesn't seem to blend well with Roy having it going in the low post.

I think he can, even while he's been "bad" he's still tossed in some decent games during the stretch. I think a lot of it is legs getting a week off will help him I think, his body has to adjust over the summer to the work load he got this season. I expect to continue to see an upward trend, but there definitely could be a speed bump here that we just have to live throuhg. I think when we look back on it 10 years from now it will be worth it though.

Unclebuck
04-17-2013, 03:01 PM
John Wall who I have never been impressed with was extremely impressive the last time the pacers played the Wizards. He's extremely fast - I would probably put him as fast as Iverson in his prime - 2001 - maybe faster.