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Nuntius
02-14-2013, 08:48 AM
As we all know most people here are down on Green. I have heard numerous people telling that he has no trade value at all or even that he has negative value.

Personally, I want to keep Green as I believe that he will bounce back when his ankle and confidence return to 100% (maybe the Dunk Contest will help?) but let's take a look at what fans of opposing teams are willing to give up for Green.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1233028

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1233049

Those are 2 trade proposals in RealGM's Trade & Transactions boards that revolve around Green returning to the Nets and Marshon Brooks being traded to the Pacers. The same person, Trader_Joe (not our own TJ), who is a Nets fan is the creator of both threads.

Here's a comment from a Nets fans:


id make this trade in a second. trading brooks for green would be awesome and id be thrilled even if it was the onyl deal we make this year.

not sure why the pacers would though

I've said several times that Green has value for Brooklyn. At least, for their fans. I don't know how the TPTB sees it but the Nets crowd certainly consider him an upgrade over what they have at back-up SF (Stackhouse) and SG (Bogans).

The overall point of this thread is that it's good to look at what fans of opposing teams think about our players. Especially about our struggling players. I know that RealGM is not exactly a reliable source as a forum but it's nice to have some insight on what other fans may think.

BRushWithDeath
02-14-2013, 09:03 AM
I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that the Nets scouting department has watched more of 2012-2013 Gerald Green than one random fan on a realgm message board.

Johanvil
02-14-2013, 09:11 AM
I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that the Nets scouting department has watched more of 2012-2013 Gerald Green than one random fan on a realgm message board.

Yep. I can see us calling with such trade proposal and getting a "No, thanks". *hangs up phone*

Pacer Fan
02-14-2013, 09:48 AM
I think he has good value per contract. Just cause Pacers aren't giving him minutes in our stagnant 1/2 court offense doesn't mean that another team can't use him in a more productive role.
Also, Brooks plays absolutely, positively zero defense. He would be so terrible with DJ on the floor at the same time.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't do that trade, but I would have a hard time pulling the trigger.

Unclebuck
02-14-2013, 09:54 AM
I'll put it this way, I do not understand why any team would want him. Not saying there aren't any teams out there who would take him, but I think if they watched him play this season I don't understand why anyone would want him

15th parallel
02-14-2013, 10:00 AM
He really has a down year, but still the contract of Green is not much of a cap killer to try shopping him out of the Pacers. I expected he'll struggle because he's a well known streaky shooter and most of his attempts are from the outside by design. If the Pacers can get a good deal out of him, then great. But with the current situation right now, I doubt we'll get a better value out of him unless he'll be a filler for a multiple-player trade.

I'm on the side that the Nets, or some other teams, are interested to get him as an energy guy (not the Hans-type energy guy, more of electrifying the crowd and the team with highlight plays). And who knows, with a guy like him you just need to pair him with a passing-savvy PG like Deron and he'll be a potent scorer with a cheap contract for 3 years.

Coopdog23
02-14-2013, 10:05 AM
I'll put it this way, I do not understand why any team would want him. Not saying there aren't any teams out there who would take him, but I think if they watched him play this season I don't understand why anyone would want him

Exactly what I was thinking. He hasn't shown enough for him to be someone we could get quality assets for him in a trade. He has so much potential like PG had, but he has to learn discipline and learn the fundamentals of the game to go along with his freak athletic ability. Once he does that, he'll be a special player

Pacerized
02-14-2013, 10:40 AM
I'd gladly trade him for a 2cd round pick right now but I think we'd be hard pressed to get that.

vnzla81
02-14-2013, 10:46 AM
I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that the Nets scouting department has watched more of 2012-2013 Gerald Green than one random fan on a realgm message board.

Apparently the Pacers scouts didn't watch the guy play that much either, anybody could tell that the Pacers were making a huge mistake by signing him to that contract.

ejwallace
02-14-2013, 11:02 AM
My gut tells me that the Pacers grabbed him with hopes of running the floor and getting good "highlight footage" dunks and fast breaks. In my mind, a fast break of Augustin with the ball, and PG24 and Green filling the lanes....That's a SCTP ANY day....

Honestly, look at our second team....Augustin, Green, Mahinmi, Hansbrough, and currently it seems that PG24 is getting left on the court with these guys....That is one hell of a lot of athleticism and speed....On paper, that group SHOULD be able to run and out hustle any second team out there. Getting easy fast break buckets...I think that part of the issue with Green is that we aren't getting the production out of the second team TPTB was envisioning when they built this roster. We are getting very good play out of the second team, but we're not getting dominating play out of them....

TBH, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see Pendy get bumped into that second string somewhere....He seems to have a similar play style to Augustin, Green, and Mahinmi....The one that truly doesn't fit that team to me is Tyler....But Tyler has to be in that group, as his aggressive play is too valuable to put on the bench...Again, it all makes sense on paper, but transitioning to real play rarely goes the way the paper reads...

Goyle
02-14-2013, 11:10 AM
Apparently the Pacers scouts didn't watch the guy play that much either, anybody could tell that the Pacers were making a huge mistake by signing him to that contract.

Nope. For his production last season, the contract we gave him should have been a steal. It's easy to say "THEY DIDN'T SCOUT HIM ENOUGH" now that he's been so bad. I'll sign a guy scoring 13ppg on great percentages every single offseason. It's going to work out more often than not.

Coopdog23
02-14-2013, 11:14 AM
He was really brought in to bring energy off the bench

vnzla81
02-14-2013, 11:16 AM
By the way how many more games until we call the off season a fail? I was told at around 25 games that it was too early, are people still making excuses? not doing a good job at upgrading the bench is going to cost the Pacers on the playoffs.

Goyle
02-14-2013, 12:02 PM
By the way how many more games until we call the off season a fail? I was told at around 25 games that it was too early, are people still making excuses? not doing a good job at upgrading the bench is going to cost the Pacers on the playoffs.

Based on performances I'm ready to say it was a failed offseason. Ian and OJ are the only guys that are looking good. Keep in mind though we haven't even gotten a chance to see the bench the FO had in mind when they made the moves.

BillS
02-14-2013, 12:21 PM
What is your definition of "fail"? I think Ian was an absolute upgrade over Lou, to the point of saving us from Roy's offensive slumping in some games. DJ was a meh to poor, though he has been doing better. The draft of OJ was good, draft of Miles was meh - so far haven't seen any kind of OMG FAIL! based on those drafted after him, though we have some hints at a player or two who would have been more successful but not any kind of missed star. Green has not lived up to anyone's expectations (even vnzla81 was more against the contract than the acquisition), who expected that?

I think we didn't downgrade the bench, improvement remains to be seen once we see more of Lance and Ian on the floor as supporting options for one another off the bench. I wouldn't call it a particular success, but I wouldn't stamp it as a shameful failure either.

McKeyFan
02-14-2013, 12:21 PM
By the way how many more games until we call the off season a fail? I was told at around 25 games that it was too early, are people still making excuses? not doing a good job at upgrading the bench is going to cost the Pacers on the playoffs.

The off season might end up being a fail, but we may not be a fail if Vogel is smart about tightening up the rotation.

Lance at backup point guard, a wing tandem of PG, Danny, Lance, and OJ, and Mahinmi as a backup big is not a bad 8-9 man rotation.

Most of the off season acquisitions don't help, but the biggest need (backup big) did get addressed with Ian, and the surprises of Lance and OJ get us the rest of the way there.

McKeyFan
02-14-2013, 12:23 PM
I could see where a team with a fast paced offense and a great distributing point guard might have an interest in Green. We are not that team.

Hicks
02-14-2013, 12:24 PM
I don't think giving the front office a singular grade or result for the sum of their off season moves makes a lot of sense or otherwise has much of any use. I think going case by case would make more sense.

For now, I think Ian is a success, Green is a failure, Orlando is trending positively, Miles is an Incomplete, and DJ is trending very negatively but not quite the failure that Green has been. Small fry signings like Sam and Ben basically get a pass from me unless they make the team noticeably worse or present locker room cancer, so they're fine to me.

*edit* I forgot to look at our returning FA's. I'd say Hill IMO is a success while Roy is extremely mixed at best.

Trader Joe
02-14-2013, 12:26 PM
By the way how many more games until we call the off season a fail? I was told at around 25 games that it was too early, are people still making excuses? not doing a good job at upgrading the bench is going to cost the Pacers on the playoffs.

Did we not re-sign George Hill and Roy Hibbert this offseason?

Beyond those two obvious moves, Ian has been a good pickup and OJ looks like another strong second round selection.

Slick Pinkham
02-14-2013, 12:34 PM
I'll be cheering for Green to win the slam dunk contest, and then maybe some team will see an ability to market him to their fan base as an exciting player, and thus choose to give up an expiring contract of similar value, a few half full tubes of Ben Gay, and maybe a second round pick.

We then act like we found $20 in the pocket of an old coat.

wintermute
02-14-2013, 12:41 PM
My initial reaction to our offseason signings was to be skeptical - I didn't like that we were getting 2 former low-minute players in Green and Mahinmi to be our 7th and 8th man basically. Well, it's worked 1 out of 2, so I guess I don't feel too bad about the Green signing now.

With DJA though, I really thought that he'd be an effective 6th man, possibly playing starter's minutes. In terms of failing to meet expectations, I think DJA has definitely been one of the worst signings for the Pacers in years. The only silver lining is that he's on a short contract and will likely be gone soon.

Justin Tyme
02-14-2013, 12:58 PM
Apparently the Pacers scouts didn't watch the guy play that much either, anybody could tell that the Pacers were making a huge mistake by signing him to that contract.


The 3.5 mil a year isn't the issue with Green's contract, the 3 fully guaranteed year contract IS THE ISSUE. This was a major blunder. Even if only the last year was unguaranteed his contract would be so much more tradeable. He'll still be in a uni come next season, so I can only hope he "finds" his game or it's going to be a long 2 more years of Green.

ECKrueger
02-14-2013, 01:04 PM
I still think Green can be okay. I'm hoping this is a learning year, and he just needs to learn how to play on a team better. Similar to Lance, I do not know that he has ever had to learn the little nuisances of the sport.

Slick Pinkham
02-14-2013, 01:08 PM
I would see if the Thunder would give up Eric Maynor for Gerald Green.

Maynor has fallen to 3rd PG and OKC at least runs enough to ponder the appeal of GG playing garbage minutes.

Maynor is 6'3" with good pure PG skills and I think he'd run the second unit better than DJ, but then again something has held him back so who knows.

Justin Tyme
02-14-2013, 01:17 PM
Nope. For his production last season, the contract we gave him should have been a steal. It's easy to say "THEY DIDN'T SCOUT HIM ENOUGH" now that he's been so bad. I'll sign a guy scoring 13ppg on great percentages every single offseason. It's going to work out more often than not.


I hear ya, but look at Green's career b4 that. That is why I never understood giving Green a fully guaranteed contract. If he his career had been different, then I could better understand the fully guaranteed contract, but it wasn't. Walsh took a flyer, and it's bit him in the ***. It's this type situation where you try and protect yourself from a player not producing. Thus a contract with unguaranteed year/years or a team option. If the player produces, the team just picks up the unguaranteed year, if the player doesn't produce the team doesn't pick up the unguaranteed year.

Overall, I'd grade the off season with Mahinmi as good, Augustin as not so good but only on a 1 year deal, and Green, I'll be polite, a poor decision based on the type of contract he was given.

vnzla81
02-14-2013, 01:19 PM
What is your definition of "fail"? I think Ian was an absolute upgrade over Lou, to the point of saving us from Roy's offensive slumping in some games. DJ was a meh to poor, though he has been doing better. The draft of OJ was good, draft of Miles was meh - so far haven't seen any kind of OMG FAIL! based on those drafted after him, though we have some hints at a player or two who would have been more successful but not any kind of missed star. Green has not lived up to anyone's expectations (even vnzla81 was more against the contract than the acquisition), who expected that?

I think we didn't downgrade the bench, improvement remains to be seen once we see more of Lance and Ian on the floor as supporting options for one another off the bench. I wouldn't call it a particular success, but I wouldn't stamp it as a shameful failure either.

By off season I mean free agent signings, yes Hill and Hibbert were re-signed and OJ has been a surprised, I'm not talking about them I'm talking about the other "upgrades" the ones that were supposed to put the Pacers on the next level, that has been a fail, yes Ian is an upgrade over Lou but at what cost? Green and DJ have been a fail, and I don't really care about Young or Ben.

At the end of the day if you compare this bench to the one last year the bench is worse and that equals a fail off season. By the way I expect Green's and Ian's contract to affect the Pacers the same way Perkins's contract affected OKC, the Pacers are going to get rid of Danny or West because they are paying too much for bench players that don't make a difference.

Ace E.Anderson
02-14-2013, 01:21 PM
I would see if the Thunder would give up Eric Maynor for Gerald Green.

Maynor has fallen to 3rd PG and OKC at least runs enough to ponder the appeal of GG playing garbage minutes.

Maynor is 6'3" with good pure PG skills and I think he'd run the second unit better than DJ, but then again something has held him back so who knows.

That guy is so overrated in my eyes. He can't shoot, he can't score, and he's not an outstanding defender. He literally doesn't do much of anything except make the occasional good pass here or there. The ability to "run a team" is overrated sometimes.

Buuuuut if it gets us out of Green's contract, then hell....may have to look into it

Hicks
02-14-2013, 02:02 PM
The thing that bothers me about the Green signing is that he was our first choice and Carlos Delfino was our second choice. In terms of which one was more likely to give you dependable production, I would think Delfino should be the first target, ahead of Green.

dohman
02-14-2013, 02:03 PM
I have used toilet paper with more value then GG

PacerDude
02-14-2013, 02:37 PM
I have used toilet paper with more value then GG

Why would you keep your used TP ??

Nuntius
02-14-2013, 02:38 PM
I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that the Nets scouting department has watched more of 2012-2013 Gerald Green than one random fan on a realgm message board.

That's true. But they have also watched more Keith Bogans and Jerry Stackhouse than one random fan on PacersDigest ;)

Slick Pinkham
02-14-2013, 02:39 PM
Why would you keep your used TP ??

maybe he's on a Carnival cruise?

wintermute
02-14-2013, 02:40 PM
By the way I expect Green's and Ian's contract to affect the Pacers the same way Perkins's contract affected OKC, the Pacers are going to get rid of Danny or West because they are paying too much for bench players that don't make a difference.

Well, considering Mahinmi and Green combined make less than Perkins, probably not. Mahinmi is tradable - good backup C's have good trade value. Green's contract is a problem, but not a huge one.

Also, OKC didn't trade Harden because of Perkins. They traded Harden because paying Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka will also certainly put them over the tax. Just as for the Pacers, paying all the core guys - George, Hibbert, West, Hill, Stephenson, and Granger is virtually impossible without going over the tax. It's not because of the bench contracts.

Coopdog23
02-14-2013, 02:41 PM
His game overall has improved but it's not at the point where he could be a solid trade block player. I think Vogel and the rest of the team will convince him to work harder because of his unbelievable potential he has

Nuntius
02-14-2013, 02:53 PM
I'll put it this way, I do not understand why any team would want him. Not saying there aren't any teams out there who would take him, but I think if they watched him play this season I don't understand why anyone would want him

Because Green has sucked a lot after an ankle injury. He was decent before that and there are several teams out there that could use his skill set.

cdash
02-14-2013, 03:04 PM
Because Green has sucked a lot after an ankle injury. He was decent before that and there are several teams out there that could use his skill set.

He still doesn't have a clue how to play basketball.

Nuntius
02-14-2013, 03:17 PM
I hear ya, but look at Green's career b4 that.

Looking at his career is what is making me hopeful about Green. And that's what other teams may look at and decide to take a flyer on him.

Look, our offense is horrible. I repeat, it's horrible without Danny. Really, if Wall didn't miss such a big part of the season then we could have the worst offense in the league. Only Lance, West and PG lately are shooting with a respectable %. Imo, that's a weapon. Teams could think that "hey, their offense sucks so it's normal that his FG% is low". Couple that with his reported ankle injury and they could see that it is very probable that he will find his shot soon enough.

Honestly, the guy has not been a bad shooter throughout his career. Before this season, his career total from 3 was 173 out of 473. That's a 36.5 3p%. That's hardly garbage. Given his well-known athleticism and his good shooting percentage throughout his career (36.8% in good volume at Celtics and 39.1% in decent volume albeit not a lot of games at Nets), it's not out of the question to believe that a team that needs a player of his skillset (athletic wing that can shoot the 3) would want him. There are much worse contracts out there.

Nuntius
02-14-2013, 03:19 PM
At the end of the day if you compare this bench to the one last year the bench is worse and that equals a fail off season.

It isn't worse though. That's the point.

Mackey_Rose
02-14-2013, 03:22 PM
Looking at his career is what is making me hopeful about Green. And that's what other teams may look at and decide to take a flyer on him.

What about his career has you hopeful? Less than half of a lockout shortened season, does not a career make.

Regardless of his career 3 point shooting percentage. There is a reason he washed out of the league, and is now affectionately known as "the dumbest player in the history of the NBA."

Nuntius
02-14-2013, 03:32 PM
He still doesn't have a clue how to play basketball.

First, I have to say that this statement is a bit too sensationalized for my taste. You have every reason to have that opinion, though ;)

Second, so? There are several players on the NBA that have no clue how to play basketball. Green has a very specific skillset. He is an athletic wing that can shoot the 3 and dunk when given space. That's what he mostly does. Do you disagree with this assessment? If you want to disagree, I'd love to listen to your reasoning :)

If you don't disagree, let me ask this. Don't you think that there are some teams that could use Green's skillset out there? If yes, then why do we think that he has no value at all? Why do we need to freak out?

I was reading clutchfans the other day and there were several Rockets fans that didn't seem to think that were willing to ship out Patrick Patterson for a 2nd rounder. I laughed when I read it. Patterson is nothing special but my god, his value ain't so low. He is a 3rd year, 6'9 Power Forward that can score and stretch the floor. He is a bad rebounder for his size and position and doesn't do much else except from scoring but he still has 2 years in his rookie deal and he isn't going to demand a lot of money at 2014/2015 when his rookie deal expires. Why would one want to get rid of him for a 2nd rounder?

Look, I get that fans can get frustrated and quickly grow to underestimate a player of their team. The opposite also happens. But let's keep some perspective. That's why I love reading the boards of other teams. It helps us to keep perspectives. An outsider is almost always more objective than a hardcore fan.

Justin Tyme
02-14-2013, 03:33 PM
The thing that bothers me about the Green signing is that he was our first choice and Carlos Delfino was our second choice. In terms of which one was more likely to give you dependable production, I would think Delfino should be the first target, ahead of Green.

Absolutely, Delfino had a proven record over Green. IMO, Walsh was looking at the athleticism of Green feeling the Pacers needed more of it. I know Carlos didn't sign a contract until later in the off season, but what gets me is his contract wasn't fully guaranteed where as Green's is. Then that's not to say Walsh wouldn't have given Carlos Delfino a guaranteed contract too. He rec'd a 2 year contract with the 2nd year unguaranteed for 3 mil a year. He's averaging 10/3/2 at 41%/37%/80%.

Pacer Fan
02-14-2013, 03:36 PM
Ian and OJ are great pickups.
Plumlee is still unknown at this point. He is the 5th big and a rookie at the end of the 1st rnd. Can't expect much. Doesn't mean it was a bad pick.
DJ is what he is. He is a good pg filling a roll for probably less then a season on a cheap expiring.
Green, although I was sceptical about his pickup, I'm still cool with his contract. He has a good contract. He has played well on both sides of the ball, excluding his fg %. If he was hitting at a higher rate we would all be loving his contract and bench roll. I think he will come around. I think he might get traded to a team like the Rockets, Warriors, Suns, Wolves or Cavs cause he is a dynamic, fast pace type player on a cheap contract. Many rookie deals are worse then his.
Signing Hibbert and Hill are good pickups.
So overall I think last summer can be considered very successful.

Nuntius
02-14-2013, 03:36 PM
What about his career has you hopeful? Less than half of a lockout shortened season, does not a career make.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenge01.html

2nd year at the Celtics. Also, in every other season he proved 2 things.

1) He couldn't stay on a team.

2) He can shoot the ball and he is athletic.



There is a reason he washed out of the league

He washed out of the league due to character issues as far as I recall. He doesn't seem to have those issues now.

LetsTalkPacers84
02-14-2013, 04:40 PM
All players with this small of a contract, and lack of "issues" have some value. As far as him working out here. I think it has a lot to do with our system, his style of play, and the fact that PG and Lance are killing it.

With Orlando showing signs of talent, and Danny coming back. Id be surprised if we don't move him.

boombaby1987
02-14-2013, 04:43 PM
His game overall has improved but it's not at the point where he could be a solid trade block player. I think Vogel and the rest of the team will convince him to work harder because of his unbelievable potential he has

Normally when you are 25 years old, you have to give up on the potential aspect, and realizing that is exactly what you are going to get.

Pacer Fan
02-14-2013, 04:59 PM
Normally when you are 25 years old, you have to give up on the potential aspect, and realizing that is exactly what you are going to get.

Yep, no improvement after 25, majority of players peak by 25...give me a break.

spreedom
02-14-2013, 05:43 PM
All players with this small of a contract, and lack of "issues" have some value. As far as him working out here. I think it has a lot to do with our system, his style of play, and the fact that PG and Lance are killing it.

With Orlando showing signs of talent, and Danny coming back. Id be surprised if we don't move him.


He's owed $7M over the next two seasons. It's not like he signed for the league minimum. I'm not totally convinced that he has any positive value as a trade asset right now unless it's in a deal when we're taking on a worse contract.

Jayday00
02-15-2013, 09:52 PM
I guarantee TYLER gets traded.. Chances are Green is in the deal with him, He has some value... Our offense is HORRIBLE, Green was scoring no problem last year on THe Nets.. He has value.. I'd like to see Tyler and Green packaged for a good shooting guard... Between DJ, TYLER, and GREEN would should be able to get the shooter that we need. If DJ and/or Tyler are involved.. we have the pieces to fill in so they're not missed... GO PACERS

imawhat
02-15-2013, 10:03 PM
The thing that bothers me about the Green signing is that he was our first choice and Carlos Delfino was our second choice.

I would've stopped right there. We should've aimed higher. Or if not, just sign a Sam Young to a vet minimum deal and get the same/better production.

CableKC
02-15-2013, 10:54 PM
He was really brought in to bring energy off the bench
I think that he was brought in for his athleticism, his length and his shooting.....which fits the
type of Players that Vogel wants on the wing on the defensive end.

Goyle
02-15-2013, 10:57 PM
I would've stopped right there. We should've aimed higher. Or if not, just sign a Sam Young to a vet minimum deal and get the same/better production.

Aimed higher with what money?

imawhat
02-16-2013, 01:06 AM
Aimed higher with what money?

The vet minimum for all I care. Almost everyone on the target is higher than Green or Delfino.

skyfire
02-16-2013, 01:33 AM
Why is this such an issue? The Pacers made a bad signing but it not nearly as bad of a contract as the ones that Tinsley, Bender and Croshere got. Those were all 5+ years and 6-7mil per season. This is 2 more years and 7 mil total.

I think the Pacers didn't forecast that Lance would make the leap that he did, so they wanted someone who could potentially lead the offense for the bench. Green looked like he might be capable of that based upon what he put up last season. Delfino would have been a better signing in hindsight as he is a smart player and good spot up shooter, which with Lance eventually leading the 2nd unit would have been a good complement. But its always easier to see in hindsight.

Pacer Fan
02-16-2013, 02:10 AM
What is all this love for Delfino. The dude can't do anything but spot shoot, which does little good in playoff intensity. So he gets you a few buckets in 17 minutes, he will give up 3x more.

Fascinating

spreedom
02-16-2013, 10:45 AM
What is all this love for Delfino. The dude can't do anything but spot shoot, which does little good in playoff intensity. So he gets you a few buckets in 17 minutes, he will give up 3x more.

Fascinating

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh5i99zUis1qzw1g3o1_500.gif

Banta
02-16-2013, 10:49 AM
I can't believe I'm really going to say this, but I don't think Tyler should be traded. Oh, good Lord above it makes me sigh and shake my head to say that.

Anyhow, since this thread has been 80% hijacked at this point, let me say something about Ian Mahinmi. Anyone who thinks his acquisition has been a bust isn't really looking. Ian is a very good player and would probably start on many teams and do well at it, too. If he had the opportunity at greater consistent minutes I think he'd be producing at least 12&10. Just look at his per-minute stats. I cited him as a player to target as a Hibbert replacement during free agency.

Derek2k3
02-16-2013, 11:33 AM
What is all this love for Delfino. The dude can't do anything but spot shoot, which does little good in playoff intensity. So he gets you a few buckets in 17 minutes, he will give up 3x more.

Fascinating

Interesting. Korver absolutely KILLED us in 2011...and he's only a spot shooter.

I'm not saying I'm all for Delfino or anything, just that history disagrees with your post.

Hicks
02-16-2013, 11:59 AM
Deflino struck me as a guy who could shoot well, generally knew how to play team basketball, and I thought he was considered an okay defender. But those were just my impressions; I don't mean to make any declarations one way or another. But between he and Green, I'd think I would have gone with the guy who stayed in the league longer.

Pacer Fan
02-16-2013, 12:00 PM
Interesting. Korver absolutely KILLED us in 2011...and he's only a spot shooter.

I'm not saying I'm all for Delfino or anything, just that history disagrees with your post.

First, Korver can play some defense unlike Delfino. Korver is taller and has a much better standing reach.
Secondly, Pacers wasn't good at all and was lucky to be there.
Third, Korver didn't kill it.
Forth, Korver done nothing against the much better team and team defense in the Heat. The Heat shut him down and he was worthless.

Lastly, Allen is a spot up shooter and is terrible on defense, but something tells me he isn't a one trick pony on how he gets his shot, unlike Delfino.

But hey, let's just name drop to make weak arguments just to do it.

Pacer Fan
02-16-2013, 12:24 PM
Deflino struck me as a guy who could shoot well, generally knew how to play team basketball, and I thought he was considered an okay defender. But those were just my impressions; I don't mean to make any declarations one way or another. But between he and Green, I'd think I would have gone with the guy who stayed in the league longer.

I understand, and the safe thing is if you can get a trade of Green for Delfino, you have to do it.
But, I would rather gamble that Green can put it together in time for the playoffs. I'm sure the FO was taking that gamble and I'm willing to give him more time. If he doesnt, then trade him this summer and move on. If we trade Green, let's hope It's for someone that is better then Delfino. Even if Pacers throw more at the deal.

spreedom
02-16-2013, 06:27 PM
First, Korver can play some defense unlike Delfino. Korver is taller and has a much better standing reach.
Secondly, Pacers wasn't good at all and was lucky to be there.
Third, Korver didn't kill it.
Forth, Korver done nothing against the much better team and team defense in the Heat. The Heat shut him down and he was worthless.

Lastly, Allen is a spot up shooter and is terrible on defense, but something tells me he isn't a one trick pony on how he gets his shot, unlike Delfino.

But hey, let's just name drop to make weak arguments just to do it.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_DUqlt9EHJS9NijuETZQ_m_s0cqnEp YmsGUmme0CZRRSIiDf20A

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTccJJYWn2ivs-W_YxZ1J9ot-ez_3-ePJ2YfZaY20kuZ0BjauUk3Q

I disagree 100% with that statement. Korver is not anything close to a good defender.

repole
02-16-2013, 06:54 PM
The ankle thing is overstated, and he really wasn't playing especially well before the injury. I think it's mostly in his head, not a physical thing.

People want to talk about how many terrible decisions he makes and all the "bonehead" mistakes, but his turnover rate is lower than last year, and is pretty respectable for a SG who is told to create for himself on occasion but mostly plays off the ball. His rebound rate is lower which concerns me a bit, and his assist rate is lower (mostly a function of limited handling of the ball), and his steal rate is lower (entire team seems to play at home on defense).

The point is, most of his rates have reasonable explanations for where they are compared to last season. The one thing that doesn't have a reasonable explanation is his FG%, and despite people wanting to claim it's ****** shot selection or anything of the like, he's missed shots at a rate this year that he simply wasn't missing frequently last year. I'd venture to say about 75% of the problem is him inexplicably forgetting how to shoot the ball, and the last 25% is him being an absolute nightmare fit for this offense. There's no way the Pacers front office, or anyone else really, could have watched Green last year and anticipated him forgetting how to shoot the basketball.

Pacer Fan
02-17-2013, 02:18 AM
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_DUqlt9EHJS9NijuETZQ_m_s0cqnEp YmsGUmme0CZRRSIiDf20A

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTccJJYWn2ivs-W_YxZ1J9ot-ez_3-ePJ2YfZaY20kuZ0BjauUk3Q

I disagree 100% with that statement. Korver is not anything close to a good defender.

No where did I say he was a good defender. What's your deal, can't read? Like to make stuff up to try and prove a point by using two pictures that mean absolutely nothing, except they are funny.

cgg
02-17-2013, 02:38 AM
Interesting. Korver absolutely KILLED us in 2011...and he's only a spot shooter.

I'm not saying I'm all for Delfino or anything, just that history disagrees with your post.

An 8th seed with a losing record that had Mike Dunleavy getting significant minutes had defensive lapses?

MvPlumlee
02-17-2013, 03:16 AM
The ankle thing is overstated, and he really wasn't playing especially well before the injury. I think it's mostly in his head, not a physical thing.

People want to talk about how many terrible decisions he makes and all the "bonehead" mistakes, but his turnover rate is lower than last year, and is pretty respectable for a SG who is told to create for himself on occasion but mostly plays off the ball. His rebound rate is lower which concerns me a bit, and his assist rate is lower (mostly a function of limited handling of the ball), and his steal rate is lower (entire team seems to play at home on defense).

The point is, most of his rates have reasonable explanations for where they are compared to last season. The one thing that doesn't have a reasonable explanation is his FG%, and despite people wanting to claim it's ****** shot selection or anything of the like, he's missed shots at a rate this year that he simply wasn't missing frequently last year. I'd venture to say about 75% of the problem is him inexplicably forgetting how to shoot the ball, and the last 25% is him being an absolute nightmare fit for this offense. There's no way the Pacers front office, or anyone else really, could have watched Green last year and anticipated him forgetting how to shoot the basketball.

It is their job to try to figure out what is going on in his head when they talk with him and want to sign him. Sure, someone could have anticipated that. Some teams exactly did that and let the Pacers sign him.

I like Green and I still believe he can be useful for the Pacers, but someone needs to get into his head like Bird 1 and Bird 2 do with Stephenson and the psychiatrist does with Hibbert.
The moment people expected him to show up and deliver, definitely was not easy. Granger out, Lance not ready yet, Paul dealing with his own struggles. Entirely new bench, except for the guy who is known for mostly looking out for himself. Green is new to the team. No point guard on the team like Deron. A (too) slow pace for him.

I can understand why he struggled, but he needs to get over it and our FO sure is to blame for signing him. He wouldn't be the first Pacer with an overstated injury.

PaceBalls
02-17-2013, 04:05 AM
http://www.lissgallery.com/neil_leifer/gallery_photos/Wilt_Chamberlain_dunking.jpg

Proof Bill Russell was a bad defender.

repole
02-20-2013, 12:39 AM
It is their job to try to figure out what is going on in his head when they talk with him and want to sign him. Sure, someone could have anticipated that. Some teams exactly did that and let the Pacers sign him.

I couldn't disagree more. Anyone who talked to Green last year or this offseason had nothing but great things to say about his attitude and how he seemingly had his head on straight. There was article after article about how the light switch had finally gone on. There was absolutely 0 reason to think he'd turn into THIS bad of a shooter. Regress to the mean some? Sure. Struggle to adapt early on? Sure. But not 48% to 34% struggle. No one could have seen that coming other than a time traveler. It'd be one thing if Green was a classic contract year type guy who got his money and stopped giving a ****, but I assure you that's not the case. Saying someone could anticipate that is like saying the St Louis Cardinals should have anticipated Rick Ankiel forgetting how to throw a strike (no idea if anyone will get that reference). Green had some ups and downs confidence wise in his past, and has always been a streaky shooter, but never like this.

Again, people can talk about other teams passing on Green all they want, but by all accounts the Nets would have happily signed him to a similar deal if it'd made any sense with their roster composition at the time/they had his bird rights/they weren't busy getting through the Dwightmare. Not to mention, using that type of logic is faulty to begin with. Every team other than the Nets passed on Green last year, and that worked out pretty well for the Nets.

MvPlumlee
02-20-2013, 01:21 AM
What can I say? :)

I guess it's a good thing Gerald has his fans, who will always have his back, no matter what.

Go Green :dance:

repole
02-20-2013, 01:30 AM
I mean I root for Green and all, but nothing in my post is "pro Gerald," if anything it's placing the blame on Green and not the Pacers. Expecting the Pacer's front office or anyone else to have somehow anticipated him becoming a terrible jumpshooter seemingly over night is ridiculous.

MvPlumlee
02-20-2013, 02:59 AM
I mean I root for Green and all, but nothing in my post is "pro Gerald," if anything it's placing the blame on Green and not the Pacers. Expecting the Pacer's front office or anyone else to have somehow anticipated him becoming a terrible jumpshooter seemingly over night is ridiculous.

Nope, you just can't accept the possibility that Gerald Green might always be a terrible jumpshooter when there is pressure on him or when he isn't playing for a lottery team(Nets).

Saying nobody knew this could happen is just your way of denying reality.

PaulGeorgeHill
02-20-2013, 06:39 AM
I haven't read all of this thread yet and I'm not sure if this was mentioned but Green shot a WORSE percentage in the DUNK CONTEST than he is shooting in this regular season lol just thought I would throw that out there

LG33
02-20-2013, 07:48 AM
I haven't read all of this thread yet and I'm not sure if this was mentioned but Green shot a WORSE percentage in the DUNK CONTEST than he is shooting in this regular season lol just thought I would throw that out there

I don't know how accurate that is. It looked like he was making at least one dunk per attempt...

repole
02-20-2013, 11:06 AM
Nope, you just can't accept the possibility that Gerald Green might always be a terrible jumpshooter when there is pressure on him or when he isn't playing for a lottery team(Nets).

Saying nobody knew this could happen is just your way of denying reality.

Please, tell me what logical reason there was to believe that a guy who shot 42% for his career and 35% from three would turn into a 35%/28% shooter this year? The Mavs were a playoff team and he shot 44% for them. There were plenty of reasons to think Green might not fit here, but there were absolutely none to think he'd be THIS bad.

Derek2k3
02-20-2013, 11:19 AM
Please, tell me what logical reason there was to believe that a guy who shot 42% for his career and 35% from three would turn into a 35%/28% shooter this year? The Mavs were a playoff team and he shot 44% for them. There were plenty of reasons to think Green might not fit here, but there were absolutely none to think he'd be THIS bad.

I think it's fair to say you couldn't anticipate how truly awful Green has been. Hindsight is 20/20, and it's just a bad break that he's been so useless this season.

In fact, the kid has already played more games this season (44) than in all but one other season in his career. He just doesn't seem to be an NBA player, unfortunately.

spreedom
02-20-2013, 11:28 AM
Please, tell me what logical reason there was to believe that a guy who shot 42% for his career and 35% from three would turn into a 35%/28% shooter this year? The Mavs were a playoff team and he shot 44% for them. There were plenty of reasons to think Green might not fit here, but there were absolutely none to think he'd be THIS bad.

That was 4 years ago, and happened to be the season that he played himself out of the league for over two years. He also played less than 10MPG for Dallas and was completely out of the rotation by the time the playoffs rolled around. He wasn't a contributor on that squad in any meaningful way. I don't think citing that season as an example of productivity makes any sense at all.

repole
02-20-2013, 11:41 AM
That was 4 years ago, and happened to be the season that he played himself out of the league for over two years. He also played less than 10MPG for Dallas and was completely out of the rotation by the time the playoffs rolled around. He wasn't a contributor on that squad in any meaningful way. I don't think citing that season as an example of productivity makes any sense at all.

I cite it because MvPlumlee is trying to claim that there was some reason to believe Green would come in and shoot 35% due to all this immense pressure of being on a playoff team. For this to be true, there'd have to be some tangible example of Green's jumpshot ******** the bed in a high pressure situation, and since his shot didn't do that in Dallas (the rest of his game may have, but not his shot), no such example exists.

My point isn't that Green played well in Dallas or anything like that, only that there simply is no evidence to suggest coming into this season that Green would struggle shooting the ball because of the pressure of Indiana/his new role. There may not be much evidence to suggest the contrary either, but again, my entire point is that to try and claim that anyone should have seen 35% shooting coming is ridiculous.

Nuntius
02-20-2013, 02:13 PM
Nope, you just can't accept the possibility that Gerald Green might always be a terrible jumpshooter when there is pressure on him or when he isn't playing for a lottery team(Nets).


When there is pressure on him?

Wasn't he under pressure to prove that he was worth of a lottery pick for the Celtics? He shot 36.8% from 3 and averaged 10.4 PPG as a scorer off the bench for the Celtics in his second season (06-07). In his first season he only shot 30% from 3 (6-20) but he did shot 47.8% from the field (66-138).

Thing is that Green is for his career a 34.6% shooter from 3. Even with this abysmal his season factored in, his career average is more than respectable. He isn't a terrible jumpshooter.

Numbers don't lie.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenge01.html

MvPlumlee
02-21-2013, 05:57 AM
Numbers don't lie, no. Stats do however. When the numbers get a meaning, there is always interpretation involved.

Some players put up great stats on bad teams. Some players put up great stats because of the free offense. Some players put up great stats because other players help them a lot...





Please, tell me what logical reason there was to believe that a guy who shot 42% for his career and 35% from three would turn into a 35%/28% shooter this year? The Mavs were a playoff team and he shot 44% for them. There were plenty of reasons to think Green might not fit here, but there were absolutely none to think he'd be THIS bad.

Yet, he IS this bad. There has to be a reason why and that implies people could have known. Scouts, GMs get payed to predict stuff like this.
That doesn't mean I predicted he would be this bad, but I'm no scout or GM.

Nuntius
02-21-2013, 12:53 PM
Numbers don't lie, no. Stats do however. When the numbers get a meaning, there is always interpretation involved.


3 point percentage is a pretty strict number. It is open to interpretation regarding volume. But that's it. There's no other interpretation.

If you shoot 34.6% from 3 for your career then it's pretty clear that you are not a bad jump shooter. Certainly not an 28% one.

PR07
02-21-2013, 01:04 PM
It's not the best contract, but it's not going to cripple our salary cap management either.

I don't think you can necessarily blame the Pacers for taking a flyer on Green. He's young, athletic, and fits in with the rest of our young core. Yes, he was putting up nice numbers on a bad team in New Jersey, in fact a career year, but it's not like the Pacers were expecting him to come in and be the #1 scoring option. All they were looking for was someone who could create their own shot and score off the bench. It hasn't worked out so far, but too many people are playing Monday Morning Quarterback here on a contract that quite frankly isn't worth such an intense discussion.

repole
02-21-2013, 03:04 PM
MvPlumlee is basically trying to argue that anything and everything can and should be predicted. It's the same as getting mad at every NFL team for passing on Tom Brady because somehow, scouts should have been able to tell that he'd become one of the all time greats, even though even the biggest Michigan fans would have told you he was a long shot to be a starting NFL QB.

Sometimes factors come into play that no one could have reasonably been expected to anticipate. That's what has happened with Green here, and it sucks, but the blame should mostly be on him, not the front office.

MvPlumlee
02-21-2013, 03:49 PM
We disagree, that's all. I believe our FO is also to blame.

But in no way or shape I'm mad at them.

I like Green and I'm one of the few that doesn't want to trade him. We have yet to see the best Pacers Green.
Next season he will know his teammates, he will know our offense and defense and even this season he can be useful as the 9th or 10th player off the bench where he doesn't have so much pressure on his shoulders.

cdash
02-21-2013, 05:28 PM
I like Green and I'm one of the few that doesn't want to trade him. We have yet to see the best Pacers Green.
Next season he will know his teammates, he will know our offense and defense and even this season he can be useful as the 9th or 10th player off the bench where he doesn't have so much pressure on his shoulders.

Just think how good he's going to be once that tornado sweeps him up and he goes to Oz with all the other misfits and mutants lacking things like "a heart" or "courage." Once that boy completes that journey and gets his brain, you've got something sweeter than Yoo-hoo.