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focused444
02-12-2013, 08:27 PM
I was watching Larry Bird's top 50 moments the other night, when footage (I've never seen) was shown from the Chuck Person, Larry Bird Rivalry.

here is a paragraph from wiki about Chuck: Selected fourth in the 1986 NBA Draft out of Auburn University by the Indiana Pacers, the small forward won the Rookie of the Year award in 1987 and played six seasons with Indiana. During this time, Person established a reputation as a brash, trash talking antagonist who, for better or worse, brought a competitive spirit to a floundering Pacers franchise. This culminated during the 1991 and 1992 playoffs when Person had an ongoing rivalry with Hall of Famer and future Pacers President Larry Bird.

This brashness was referred to in the Bird documentary as well, and they even went as far to say that Person's persona is where Reggie learned his antagonistic traits from.

I then realized I began following the Pacers the year after Person was traded, and while I was always aware that he was a Pacer I never saw him play until he was just another guy on the opponents team. I especially didn't know about his fiery personality.

What I'm hoping for is for the old timers (or anyone) to share personal interactions with, or great memories of Chuck. Little things you noticed about him during games, on the bench, warm ups. From the little footage I've now seen he seems like a very interesting character, and deadly shooter.

Is it true he revived the franchise?

Did Reggie learn to be a showman from Chuck?

Was he a good teammate, being that he was so explosive?

Was he brash all the time or just on the floor?


For example, Trader Joe posted an anecdote about an interaction he had with Granger on Monday (which is great by the way):

"Yesterday Seth and I were sitting behind the P's bench and when Danny came out at half time to sit on the bench as the team was warming up, we both started yelling and I said "See you Wednesday Danny!" And he looked at us, smiled, and gave a slight nod and point."

I hoping to unearth some of these jewels that show insight into Chuck's personality, or maybe a night where you saw him completely take over a game (did he do that?)

thanks! go Pacers!

Jon Theodore
02-12-2013, 08:39 PM
What is an anecdote.

focused444
02-12-2013, 08:43 PM
a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident

that's the definition

i used the word because i wanted personal stories

should i change it to stories?

BlueNGold
02-12-2013, 08:43 PM
I was a casual fan in the late 80's, probably more focused on college ball at the time. So I don't have too much to add here. But I distinctly remember Chuck and how he seemed to give the Pacers some personality and a boost. He had supreme confidence and the team leaned on him for that. He was a guy you knew would be more than willing to shoot the ball.

I thought Reggie learned something from Chuck...but he wasn't Chuck's student for long. Kind of reminds me of Paul and Danny...although today's Pacers are better players.

Reggie did seem to be his under study for a bit, but it didn't last long. It became clear very quickly who would be "the man".

It's been a long, long time...but I recall Chuck being brash all the time. It seemed to be his personality. He was an exciting player, although at the time our standards were not that high. Any competition he had with Bird was very temporary. Bird was at least a couple levels better than Chuck.

1984
02-12-2013, 08:50 PM
More HERE (http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/bird_person_game5.html).


Bird and Person enjoyed a fierce rivalry throughout their careers. Person was a brash, outspoken, trash-talker who wanted to get in Bird’s face. Bird was a quiet assassin who generally let his actions speak for him – although he could talk trash with the best of them. On one legendary late December night, Bird told Person before a game that he had a present for him. In the fourth quarter, after hitting a clutch 3-pointer, Bird turned to Person, who was seated on the Pacers’ bench, and said, “Merry Christmas.” Such was the nature of their rivalry.

focused444
02-12-2013, 08:55 PM
I was a casual fan in the late 80's, probably more focused on college ball at the time. So I don't have too much to add here. But I distinctly remember Chuck and how he seemed to give the Pacers some personality and a boost. He had supreme confidence and the team leaned on him for that. He was a guy you knew would be more than willing to shoot the ball.

I thought Reggie learned something from Chuck...but he wasn't Chuck's student for long. Kind of reminds me of Paul and Danny...although today's Pacers are better players.

Reggie did seem to be his under study for a bit, but it didn't last long. It became clear very quickly who would be "the man".

It's been a long, long time...but I recall Chuck being brash all the time. It seemed to be his personality. He was an exciting player, although at the time our standards were not that high. Any competition he had with Bird was very temporary. Bird was at least a couple levels better than Chuck.

Crazy how history repeats itself, including the circumstances around Reggie and PG's draft involving a local basketball hero. Hope Paul continues down Reggie's path.

Yeah the documentary made it clear that Bird was levels above Person, but Person being who he is gave him a good fight in a playoff series.

BlueNGold
02-12-2013, 08:59 PM
Crazy how history repeats itself, including the circumstances around Reggie and PG's draft involving a local basketball hero. Hope Paul continues down Reggie's path.

Yeah the documentary made it clear that Bird was levels above Person, but Person being who he is gave him a good fight in a playoff series.

Wow. I'm kind of embarrassed. I never even thought of the Gordon Hayward and Steve Alford connection. Kind of spooky.

focused444
02-12-2013, 09:01 PM
haha right, it is kinda spooky. There are some other similarities too. Their size, lankiness, and both being from SOCAL. I can't take credit for those though.

imawhat
02-12-2013, 10:07 PM
I'd love to hear more about Chuck in general, even as a player. He left before I got head first into the Pacers.

He seemed like a very nice guy. I ran into him before the 89 Indiana/Kentucky HS all-star game at MSA and he was pretty friendly.

DrFife
02-12-2013, 11:01 PM
I'd love to hear more about Chuck in general, even as a player. He left before I got head first into the Pacers.

He seemed like a very nice guy. I ran into him before the 89 Indiana/Kentucky HS all-star game at MSA and he was pretty friendly.

I remember how Chuck would hit a shot from an insane distance and back-pedal while wagging his head up and down like a bobble-head doll. He was our little side-show for a couple years there.

Kstat
02-12-2013, 11:41 PM
Reggie's "never take advice from chuck person" stories were always the best

Professor S
02-12-2013, 11:42 PM
I wish I had a concrete memory about his personality to share. I do remember witnessing a great game if his firsthand at MSA. It was the 89-90 season, making me 12 years old at the time. My father, uncle, and I made the trip to Indy to see the Pacers take on the then-defending champion Pistons.

I got Stuart Gray's autograph before the game. He and Bill Laimbeer were ejected for fighting in the first quarter (shocking! Laimbeer ejected?).

But "The Rifleman" was on fire that night. He had 25 points at half. He was slowed a bit in the second half but still had 40+. The Pistons put the clamps on and came away with the win, but Chuck Person and the Pacers made me a fan for life that night.

Sollozzo
02-13-2013, 12:12 AM
Reggie's "never take advice from chuck person" stories were always the best


There is one from his I Love Being the Enemy book that particularly stands out. In an exhibition game, the Pacers were killing the Bulls because the Bulls were going through the motions and not really giving a crap. Reggie had been on fire that night and Person said something like "talk ***** to Michael, he ain't any good". Reggie, feeling good about himself, decided to do it and began talking some to ***** to Jordan. 45 wasn't about to be served up like that, not even in an exhibition game. So 45 goes on a scoring tear and the Bulls win the game. At the end of the game, MJ went up to Reggie and said "don't ever talk ***** to me again."

Reggie concluded the story by saying "Two things: Number one, I never talked ***** to Michael again, and number 2, I never listened to Chuck Person again."

That's my paraphrasing of it. I don't have the book in front of me right now.

The Bird serving up Person story is hilarious too.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 01:10 AM
I'd much rather talk about '91 than the season we don't discuss in that other thread.

:love:

For history purposes, the Pacers in the mid-80's were the walking dead. With Herb Williams and Clark Kellogg as their starting forwards, and an absolutely wretched backcourt, they managed 94 wins over a four year period. Yes. Jim O'Brien's worst season was still better than their best season.

They started picking up some young talent in the draft - Stipo, Fleming, Tisdale.

Finally Donnie Walsh was promoted to GM. His first moves were hiring Dr. Jack Ramsay and drafting Rifleman. He signed John Long as a FA to play SG. The culture of the team changed immediately.

Then they got their blessing in disguise - Kellogg's knees were shot. Rifleman stepped into the starting lineup as a rookie, was a landslide rookie of the year winner. A big win in Phoenix that season (when we were all accostomed to going 0fer on west coast trips) was punctuated by Chuck's 42 points - 18 for 23 from the floor including 6-6 from behind the arc. Chuck also made more game winning shots as a rookie than most players make in a career.

That team made the playoffs for the second time in the Pacers' NBA history against the loaded Atlanta Hawks. Chuck and Dominique instantly had a nice rivalry. That team also had Doc Rivers, Spud Webb, Tree Rollins and Kevin Willis. How Fratello and later Wilkens never got more out of them, I don't know.

The Pacers first NBA playoff win ever was game #3. Rifleman led the team with 23 (0-1 from behind the arc), 17 and 7.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704290IND.html

MSA was rocking.

In game #4, Rifleman dropped 40 again, on only 27 FGA (including 0-3 on 3's). That was his 40 second 40-point game a rookie. He also added 7 rebounds and six assists. The 40 points would be a franchise (NBA) playoff record until Reggie scored 41 in game #5 against the Bucks (2000).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198705010IND.html

The point of this part of the history lesson is that many will come on here and tell you that Chuck was only a one-deminsional long-range bomber. That may have become true, but it was a coaching prophesy that became self-perpetuated.

Chuck teased us with what the Pacers could actually become.

A certain percentage of Indiana basketball fans didn't like it though. The Pacers were supposed to be the local punching bags to beloved Larry Bird and the Celtics.

The next season ended with the Knicks eliminating the Pacers for the #8 seed on the very last day of the season. A young rookie kid named Miller played off the bench behind John Long and averaged 10 points per game.

The following year, Stipo's knees were shot.

A young rookie C named Smits was not ready to play but thrust into the lineup.

Dr. Jack had all he could take and retired. Mel Danies wanted nothing to do with the HC job. George Irvine happened yet again and went 6-14, by far the highest winning percent of his coaching career.

And then Q-tip-head was hired.

At that point, Rifleman's three year run was 19P, 8R, 4A; 18P, 7R, 4A; and 22P, 7R, 4A.

Dick Versace decided Rifleman could/ should only shoot 3's. While Chuck had a range on his jumper out to almost the timeline, he was also somewhat judicious in when he used the 3 point shot - saving it for big moments. Even while logging heavy minutes, he only took a couple 3FGAs per game (up to 2.6 in the third year which was boosted by Versace parking him at the 3point line.)

Naturally, his rebounding took a tumble since he was away from the basket, and his reasonably efficient two-point shot started to fade away from his game.

The Pacers also picked up Detlef Schrempf, and while Det was the sixth man his offensive versatility made him one of the key go-to guys. And they'd had all of Herb Williams' turnovers they could take, and in came Tank Thomspon as well.

Vern-Reggie-Chuck-Tank-Smits found themselves in the 1990 playoffs getting clobbered by Detroit. Chuck had a lousy series.

Rifleman built a mansion on Geist. Chuck was tape junkie, and had installed multiple satellite dishes (remember, this was before the League Pass) so that he could watch every game and take notes on tendencies of the other SFs. Reggie built a mansion next door (not the one that burned). There was a cool NBA on NBC halftime feature in this era on their houses, and how they'd walk next door to shoot pool against each other.

The next season got off to lousy start, and Versace was canned (thank God) and Bo Hill took over. The day after Bo Hill was named coach, Reggie signed a huge contract extension. Up until then, the rumor was that he wanted to go back to LA and play with Magic. After signing that contract extension, Reggie began moving away from his "Hollywood" nickname.

Realizing that his young guns were more likely to play good defense if their offensive games were on, Bo emphasized ball movement and offense and probably maximized that team's potential. The Bird-Person rivalry had been gathering heat to match the Person-Wilkens rivalry. To the point where Chuck called out the Indianapolis fans that were booing when Rifleman outplayed Bird in a regular season game. This one:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199102240IND.html

Chuck was a legendary trash talker, as was Bird. That actually became a rallying cry for the Pacers fans, but the action in the stands was every bit as intense as the action on the court.

At 41-41, which was a solid recovery after Versace started the season at 9-16, the Pacers and Celtics met in the playoffs.

The Pacers blew out the C's in Game #2, behind Chuck's 39 points on just 24 shots (16-24 overall, including a red-hot 7-10 from behind the arc. But hey, that's also 9-14 inside the arc in a playoff game so again ignore those "he was just a three-point specialist" remarks)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199104280BOS.html

There is a contingent of us that would love to get this particular game of this series onto the NBA Classics rotation.

Game #3 was UGLY. MSA was ready to explode. And Bird, McHale, and Parrish were ready to play defense. Chuck was awful. Just awful. 2-6 from the floor for six points.

Game #4 was a different story. Chuck erupted for 30 and Reggie added 27. The series went back to Boston tied at 2. And MSA was at its all-time loudest.

Dale Raterman, long time marketing director for the Pacers, describes Game #4 like this:



The crowds in Market Square Arena got national attention during the Pacers' conference finals appearances for being among the loudest and most passionate in the NBA. Rightly so. But in my 15 years with the Pacers, the loudest I ever heard the crowd in MSA - and the only time I literally saw a crowd carry a team to victory - was during the opening round of the 1991 NBA Playoffs. Let me set the scene. The Pacers finished the season 41-41 and faced the Atlantic Division champion Boston Celtics. Boston edged the Pacers in Game 1. However, led by Chuck Person's 39 points, Indiana won Game 2, 130-118, in the fabled Boston Garden. Returning to Indianapolis for the next two contests of the five-game series, the Pacers' fans hoped that the team could hold its homecourt advantage and win its first NBA playoffs series. The Celtics won the bitterly fought Game 3, 112-105. Two nights later in Game 4, the Celtics built a seven-point lead over the first three quarters.

During the timeout between the third and fourth periods, public address announcer Reb Porter implored the crowd to ''get on your feet and help YOUR Indiana Pacers during the final quarter.'' The crowd rose, began to make noise and no one - I mean no one - ever sat down the rest of the night. The Pacers began chipping away at the Celtics' lead. With every Pacers' point and every Celtics' miss, the crowd got louder and louder. Standing and cheering through every time out, every free throw and every second of action, the crowd needed no encouragement. There was no music played over the loudspeakers, no announcements to instruct the fans to support the home team. As the team's public relations director, my seat was next to the Pacers' bench. During timeouts, I could see in each player's eyes the adrenaline rush that was pushing them to new heights.

The team played harder in that fourth quarter than any I had ever seen. By midway through the quarter, the roar was deafening. The Pacers eventually grabbed the lead and held on for a 116-113 victory to send the series back to Boston for a deciding Game 5. (The Celtics prevailed in another thriller, 124-121, in a game still among the most storied in Garden history. Larry Bird, sent to the locker room to recover from hitting his head on the floor, returned to the court in the second half to inspire the Celtics to the victory.) But the intensity - on the floor and off - during those 12 minutes in the final quarter of Game 4 will never be matched - in my eyes, or in my ears.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/msa_staff.html?quicktabs_tabs_social=2

:love:

I'll tell you from personal experience the following stories. I had 15th-row seats, across from the C's bench. When we parked in the lot at Arena Sporting Goods that night, the young "kid" (probably my age, I was a junior in college at the time) got out of the car wearing a Bird jersey and Pacers cap. Jay's_Dad@Section222 used his football coach's voice and said, "Young man, you are going to have to make up your mind before you walk into that arena. Us or them?" The kid was so intimidated he took off his Bird jersey and left it in the car.

At some point in the second half Rifleman hit a big shot, changing the momentum. The C's were going to call timeout after advancing the ball to halfcourt, but McHale passed to Bird or vise versa, Chuck intercepted the pass, dribbled about 15 feet for a 1 on 3 slow "fast" break, stopped and put a 28-footer right through the middle of the net. Now the C's called timeout and Chuck took a lap around MSA pounding his chest, further electrifying the 1/2 of the crowd that was cheering for the Pacers. The other 1/2 of the crowd was insulted that Chuck could show up their hero. In all of the years of going to games with a father that is a coach... well, he just doesn't cheer. He watches, and takes it all in, thinking about what his next move would be. I've gotten fewer than five high-fives from him in 35 years of going to Pacers games together. And that shot was one of them.

During either that timeout, or the quarter break mentioned above, the guy in a Green #33 jersey sitting behind me told me to sit down. This so-infuriated Jay's_Fiance@Section222 that she started yelling back at him. "At least he's cheering for the home team." Yep, she's a keeper.

Anyway, re-read that description above. Such a game.

Off to game five, the damn game we do get watch on NBA Classics. Stupid Larry Bird comes back after almost breaking his ugly face. And Rifleman has a great chance to send it to overtime and misses the biggest shot of his career. Chuck finished with 32 and the three-headed second options of Detlef, Micheal Williams and Reggie each had more than 20 in that game.

The Pacers did not regain the magic the following season. They struggled instead of breaking out. Young Dale Davis gradually replaced Tank Thompson. There were two players in the league that averaged 20-5-5 - Bird and Pippen. Or as Chuck likes to describe it, there were three players in the league that season that averaged 19-5-5 - Bird, Pippen and Rifleman.

But they were swept by Boston. Then Donnie Walsh outsmarted himself by trading Rifleman and Micheal Williams for a pile of Pooh (Richardson) and some spare change. The idea was that Detlef would be the team's new go-to guy. But that team also didn't really get its act together either and Bo Hill's contract was not renewed. Larry Brown came in, decided it was time for it to be Reggie's team and traded Detlef for McKey. Smits was finally ready to be a starter (you'll notice in that '91 series that Dreiling was starting ahead of Smits to keep Rik out of foul trouble). Antonio Davis was picked up, along with Workman. And Larry Brown had a vastly different team than Bo Hill's final season. But they got off to an awful start, 1-6, then up to 5-10, and still just 11-17 in early January and only 16-23 in late January before it clicked and they finished 31-12 over the last 2.5 months. Oh yeah, something else happened in there - Byron Scott signed and made it his personal mission to teach Reggie and the team what it meant to be winners.

Meanwhile, Chuck was banished to Minnesota where he was not part of their future. As a free-agent, he signed with San Antonio and was reunited with Bo Hill. Bo used him a lot at PF, and suddenly Chuck was back up to 5 rpg (and the second highest per-36 rebound rate of his career). Late during training camp of Chuck's second season in SA, there was a mishap at either the takeoff or landing of the team's charter plane. Chuck's back was wrecked. He only missed two games that year, but then he subsequently missed the entire following season. But he was in good company. David Robinson missed 70+ games, and Sean Elliott and Charles Smith each missed most of the season. With the exception of Will Purdue, that was the entire front court. Bo Hill got canned, they drafted Duncan, and the rest has been SA history. During the season that Chuck missed due to injury, the players responded to an ESPN or SI survey and one of the questions was "who's the best trash talker?" Chuck finished in the top-four. Hang on to this story... If you saw my comments in the Jalen Rose thread- that was also the Season We Do Not Discuss, and Rifleman spent the year rehabbing at his home in Geist, was seen at numerous Pacers games, and was paying Roger Brown's medical bills.

After one more year in SA, Chuck was traded to Chicago, cut immediately, and spent the lockout year in Charlotte.

He played one more season in Seattle. During the season, Gary Payton was asked about talking trash, and told the reporter he didn't think he was the even the best trash talker on his team. "Chuck Person missed an entire season and was still one of the top vote getters -- how can I top that?"

The eight-seeded Sonics playoff run ended in Utah in game #5 in a three-point loss. Chuck Person played one minute of Game #5, and was 0-1. Gary Payton threw him the ball for the last shot that looked eerily similar to that Game #5 loss in Boston a decade earlier. Here's how SI and Paul Westphal described the last shot of Chuck's career:


Seattle had pulled within 94-93 when Gary Payton flipped in a runner in the lane with 25 seconds to play.

The Sonics got a final chance, but Chuck Person's 3-point attempt bounced off the rim at the buzzer.

"I'd bet on him anytime," Seattle coach Paul Westphal said. "He's a money shooter. He's made a lot of those in his career. He gave it a good ride and it just didn't go in."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2000/playoffs/news/2000/05/05/jazz_sonics_gm5_ap/

:love:

focused444
02-13-2013, 01:35 AM
holy smokes ChicagoJ! amazing post! I laughed, learned, and nearly cried. Thank you

Kstat
02-13-2013, 01:52 AM
Chuck was a guy that always seemed to bite off more than he could chew. He'd get to a point where you felt he was ready for the big time, but he was always upstaged by his opposing number.

He couldn't shake off Dennis Rodman in 1990, he got edged out by the corpse of Larry bird in 1991, and then he was taken behind the woodshed by bird's understudy (Reggie Lewis) in 1992. I felt he was a bit Iike mark Aguirre. Competent scorer on a mediocre team, but a vital component on a contender. I thought he was more comfortable in his own skin in San Antonio than he ever was in Indiana.

JR Smith reminds me a lot of chuck person. Talent of an all star, but the unfounded confidence of a hall of famer.

Chuck would have been awesome on twitter.

Unclebuck
02-13-2013, 09:11 AM
I can't compete with J's write-up, nor will I try. I was more of a Chuck fan than a Reggie fan when they were both here, mainly because I guess Chuck was the first player that got us to the playoffs. He made a difference on this team.

Chuck also was misunderstood. He didn't have great talent, wasn't a very good athlete (by NBA small forward standards), he was somewhat limited overall. His shooting was streaky and he didn't have the best form so I never thought he was a great shooter.

But he did have some things working for him. He was as smart as any player to ever put on a Pacers NBA uniform, his BB IQ was extremely high, (his passing was very underrated) even though he didn't IMO have great instincts for basketball. He also was extremly mentally tough, he never backed down, never backed away from a challenge. he was stubborn in a good and bad way. he wasn't an easy guy to coach, he thought he knew best.

Chuck was my favorite player when he was traded, but the pacers made the correct decision in trading Chuck and building around Reggie. It shouldn't be a surpirse that In many ways his rookie season was his best season, he didn't have a great upside as it was his smarts that made him so good and he came into the NBA with that.

He was an emotional player and when he got worked up he could go off and the bigger the game the more he would step up

Grover
02-13-2013, 10:45 AM
I lived in Atlanta from 89-94 and its kind of blurred together and I don't know which season this was...

It was a year the Pacers had weak defense but an excellent shooter at each position and a lot of fun to watch on offense (Smits at C, Schremph at the 4, Chuck at 3, Reggie at the 2 and the questionable point guard George McCloud - a shooting guard out of position, imo).

One game against the Hawks, Chuck was really feeling it and woofing it up. Then came the moment I'll enjoy forever.

Chuck drove the lane drawing like all five Hawks (may not have been but it seemed like it at the time) and just flipped the ball backwards over his head without looking to hit McCloud wide open in the corner. Before George even caught the ball, Chuck started dancing and waving his arms wildly as he ran back down the floor celebrating. Luckily McCloud hit the shot, but seeing Person's cocky confidence flowing through the whole team was awesome. I think he had that bobble head thing going (mentioned above) too! Great fun

I know I didn't have that kind of faith in George McCloud...

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 12:36 PM
These are both good. I'll add a little:


Chuck was a guy that always seemed to bite off more than he could chew. He'd get to a point where you felt he was ready for the big time, but he was always upstaged by his opposing number.

He couldn't shake off Dennis Rodman in 1990, he got edged out by the corpse of Larry bird in 1991, and then he was taken behind the woodshed by bird's understudy (Reggie Lewis) in 1992. I felt he was a bit Iike mark Aguirre. Competent scorer on a mediocre team, but a vital component on a contender. I thought he was more comfortable in his own skin in San Antonio than he ever was in Indiana.

A lot of that was Dick Versace's low views of Chuck, and the criticism that followed when Chuck did what his coach asked- stand at the 3-point line and the rebounding numbers tumbled. Reuniting Chuck with Bo Hill in SA certainly helped reenergize both of them. But I don't completely agree with your comment because I believe he still owns that house in Geist. In the mid-90's, he still split his offseasons between Brantley and Geist.


JR Smith reminds me a lot of chuck person. Talent of an all star, but the unfounded confidence of a hall of famer.

Chuck would have been awesome on twitter.

Those are great observations and quite accurate, IMO.


I can't compete with J's write-up, nor will I try. I was more of a Chuck fan than a Reggie fan when they were both here, mainly because I guess Chuck was the first player that got us to the playoffs. He made a difference on this team.

Chuck also was misunderstood. He didn't have great talent, wasn't a very good athlete (by NBA small forward standards), he was somewhat limited overall. His shooting was streaky and he didn't have the best form so I never thought he was a great shooter.

Chuck was a 6'8" NBA forward that couldn't dunk. In that era, there was only one other player with that description, but Bird actually could dunk. Bird probably had a higher vertical than Rifleman. Rifleman might've had as high a BBIQ as Bird. Chuck didn't have Larry's court vision, but let's be honest less than a dozen players in NBA history have seen the entire court -- and deliver the pass -- like Bird could do and they're probably all in the HoF.


But he did have some things working for him. He was as smart as any player to ever put on a Pacers NBA uniform, his BB IQ was extremely high, (his passing was very underrated) even though he didn't IMO have great instincts for basketball. He also was extremly mentally tough, he never backed down, never backed away from a challenge. he was stubborn in a good and bad way. he wasn't an easy guy to coach, he thought he knew best.

Chuck was my favorite player when he was traded, but the pacers made the correct decision in trading Chuck and building around Reggie. It shouldn't be a surpirse that In many ways his rookie season was his best season, he didn't have a great upside as it was his smarts that made him so good and he came into the NBA with that.

This is where I disagree. First of all, with that trade they were building around Detlef, not Reggie. It wasn't Reggie's team until Brown came in and traded Detlef. Second, Chuck saw the writing on the wall - that his future was as a sixth man and lobbied against the trade rumors to stay with Donnie, Bo, Reggie and the Pacers. Word has come out over the years that it was George Irvine, in his VP role, that was pushing hard for the trade. When Bo Hill's contract was not renewed, he lamented about how the trade that was supposed to help chemistry didn't actually help chemistry, and the talent was depleted. You always say the winner of an NBA trade is the one who receives the best talent. Minnesota received the two most talented players in that trade. I think we all would have loved for Rifleman and AD to be the two frontcourt bench players for the Larry Brown-era Pacers. He even said so himself, at one point, when he said the only way the Pacers would have had the firepower to compete with that vintage of the Rockets was if they still had the Rifleman.


He was an emotional player and when he got worked up he could go off and the bigger the game the more he would step up

Like Reggie after him, and now David West, he was just the guy you trusted in that situation. He wasn't afraid of the big stage and bright lights. When the PA system was playing "Holding out for a Hero" (bad 1980's flashback) -- everybody in MSA knew where the ball was going and he still made the plays far more often than not (cueing vnzla to call him 'choker'). At the time he left, he was far-and-away the best player we'd had since the ABA ended. Maybe Billy Knight came close, but nobody else. He's long since been surpassed. Even I'll admit that.

Signed,

Chuck Person's biggest fan

Slick Pinkham
02-13-2013, 01:06 PM
Thanks for the stroll down memory lane- awesome stories. I had forgotten how much of a complete player Chuck was in his first few years, as opposed to being a shooter hanging out by the 3-point line after (as you stated) his coaches asked him to do that. For example, the playoff boxscores you linked showed him shooting 10 or even 15 free throws, plus boards, plus assists. Later the boards went down and he never drew fouls because... well... who needs to foul a guy waiting to shoot a jumper?

I was a Billy Knight guy, and then I really drifted away from the team somewhat in the late 80s (well, graduate school can do that to a guy). It was that opening round of the 1991 playoffs vs. Boston that really re-awakened my fandom.

Unclebuck
02-13-2013, 01:42 PM
Chuck also seemed to have a tendency to gain some weight from time to time. That is just his body type as you can see after his playing days.

J, so you think the pacers were building around Detlef. I don't see it that way. The common thought at the time: either Reggie or Chuck, but not both. Detlef could adjust his game to either.

QuickRelease
02-13-2013, 02:33 PM
My favorite memory of Chuck was actually when he got kicked out of a game. He took the ball and kicked it into the stands. Someone threw the ball back onto the court. Chuck took the ball and kicked it into the stands again. I still laugh about that to this day. Chuck was real streaky, but when he got going, buckets! I remember a game (in Chicago I think), and Reggie and Chuck hit back to back to back threes, which helped to solidify that win (at least I think they won). That was the first time I saw Chuck Person dunk. I remember that whoever was announcing was laughing so hard, because they weren't sure if Chuck was going to get off the ground high enough to dunk it. He didn't come away from that dunk with the name 'Skywalker' to be sure. One of my earlier memories of the Pacers was how emotional Donnie's presser was when he traded Chuck away.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 03:16 PM
Chuck also seemed to have a tendency to gain some weight from time to time. That is just his body type as you can see after his playing days.

J, so you think the pacers were building around Detlef. I don't see it that way. The common thought at the time: either Reggie or Chuck, but not both. Detlef could adjust his game to either.


Problem was that the opposite happened - Detlef, Reggie and Rik had awful on-court spacing. Mostly because when Detlef moved into the starting lineup he got in everyone's way. That's not the same as chemistry, and its actually a bigger problem. Detlef didn't adjust to any of them. And with Brown looking for "four interchangeable wings" and "five guys that can defend the post", that left nowhere for Detlef to play or go.

As a starter, in 60 games he averaged 40 mpg and 18.3 ppg.

In the other 22 off the bench, he averaged 32 mpg and 20.4 ppg.

Things got worse overall when he started.

They were 0.500 and improving before the trade, and plateau'ed at 0.500 after the trade. Safe to say it just didn't work while overall depleting the talent level of the team.

Chemistry was better without Micheal Williams gambling for too many steals or shooting too many pull-up jumpers with Chuck and Reggie standing there with open hands, ready for the ball. The 1992 season was when I decided that PGs should only shoot layups, nothing else, and my honeymoon with Micheal Williams was short-lived. He was what we needed on the court in 1991, and a stat-stuffing disaster in 1992.

Reggie and Chuck were not perpetuating the "one or the other" talk. That was the media's/ fan's perception. That may have happened with other players in other eras, but those two seemed to genuinely enjoy the presence of each other on and off the court. Would love to just listen in when Rifleman, Barkley and Reggie get together now and talk about old times. That has to be hilarious.

BobbyMac
02-13-2013, 03:45 PM
I saw him play many times. This write up is a very good account of Person and the Pacers during that time. My small story was during his rookie year he hit a 35 foot 3 to win a game at MSA and the guy in front of me stood up and yelled "I"M SORRY I BOOED YOU ON DRAFT NITE!!!!"

I'd much rather talk about '91 than the season we don't discuss in that other thread.

:love:

For history purposes, the Pacers in the mid-80's were the walking dead. With Herb Williams and Clark Kellogg as their starting forwards, and an absolutely wretched backcourt, they managed 94 wins over a four year period. Yes. Jim O'Brien's worst season was still better than their best season.

They started picking up some young talent in the draft - Stipo, Fleming, Tisdale.

Finally Donnie Walsh was promoted to GM. His first moves were hiring Dr. Jack Ramsay and drafting Rifleman. He signed John Long as a FA to play SG. The culture of the team changed immediately.

Then they got their blessing in disguise - Kellogg's knees were shot. Rifleman stepped into the starting lineup as a rookie, was a landslide rookie of the year winner. A big win in Phoenix that season (when we were all accostomed to going 0fer on west coast trips) was punctuated by Chuck's 42 points - 18 for 23 from the floor including 6-6 from behind the arc. Chuck also made more game winning shots as a rookie than most players make in a career.

That team made the playoffs for the second time in the Pacers' NBA history against the loaded Atlanta Hawks. Chuck and Dominique instantly had a nice rivalry. That team also had Doc Rivers, Spud Webb, Tree Rollins and Kevin Willis. How Fratello and later Wilkens never got more out of them, I don't know.

The Pacers first NBA playoff win ever was game #3. Rifleman led the team with 23 (0-1 from behind the arc), 17 and 7.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704290IND.html

MSA was rocking.

In game #4, Rifleman dropped 40 again, on only 27 FGA (including 0-3 on 3's). That was his 40 second 40-point game a rookie. He also added 7 rebounds and six assists. The 40 points would be a franchise (NBA) playoff record until Reggie scored 41 in game #5 against the Bucks (2000).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198705010IND.html

The point of this part of the history lesson is that many will come on here and tell you that Chuck was only a one-deminsional long-range bomber. That may have become true, but it was a coaching prophesy that became self-perpetuated.

Chuck teased us with what the Pacers could actually become.

A certain percentage of Indiana basketball fans didn't like it though. The Pacers were supposed to be the local punching bags to beloved Larry Bird and the Celtics.

The next season ended with the Knicks eliminating the Pacers for the #8 seed on the very last day of the season. A young rookie kid named Miller played off the bench behind John Long and averaged 10 points per game.

The following year, Stipo's knees were shot.

A young rookie C named Smits was not ready to play but thrust into the lineup.

Dr. Jack had all he could take and retired. Mel Danies wanted nothing to do with the HC job. George Irvine happened yet again and went 6-14, by far the highest winning percent of his coaching career.

And then Q-tip-head was hired.

At that point, Rifleman's three year run was 19P, 8R, 4A; 18P, 7R, 4A; and 22P, 7R, 4A.

Dick Versace decided Rifleman could/ should only shoot 3's. While Chuck had a range on his jumper out to almost the timeline, he was also somewhat judicious in when he used the 3 point shot - saving it for big moments. Even while logging heavy minutes, he only took a couple 3FGAs per game (up to 2.6 in the third year which was boosted by Versace parking him at the 3point line.)

Naturally, his rebounding took a tumble since he was away from the basket, and his reasonably efficient two-point shot started to fade away from his game.

The Pacers also picked up Detlef Schrempf, and while Det was the sixth man his offensive versatility made him one of the key go-to guys. And they'd had all of Herb Williams' turnovers they could take, and in came Tank Thomspon as well.

Vern-Reggie-Chuck-Tank-Smits found themselves in the 1990 playoffs getting clobbered by Detroit. Chuck had a lousy series.

Rifleman built a mansion on Geist. Chuck was tape junkie, and had installed multiple satellite dishes (remember, this was before the League Pass) so that he could watch every game and take notes on tendencies of the other SFs. Reggie built a mansion next door (not the one that burned). There was a cool NBA on NBC halftime feature in this era on their houses, and how they'd walk next door to shoot pool against each other.

The next season got off to lousy start, and Versace was canned (thank God) and Bo Hill took over. The day after Bo Hill was named coach, Reggie signed a huge contract extension. Up until then, the rumor was that he wanted to go back to LA and play with Magic. After signing that contract extension, Reggie began moving away from his "Hollywood" nickname.

Realizing that his young guns were more likely to play good defense if their offensive games were on, Bo emphasized ball movement and offense and probably maximized that team's potential. The Bird-Person rivalry had been gathering heat to match the Person-Wilkens rivalry. To the point where Chuck called out the Indianapolis fans that were booing when Rifleman outplayed Bird in a regular season game. This one:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199102240IND.html

Chuck was a legendary trash talker, as was Bird. That actually became a rallying cry for the Pacers fans, but the action in the stands was every bit as intense as the action on the court.

At 41-41, which was a solid recovery after Versace started the season at 9-16, the Pacers and Celtics met in the playoffs.

The Pacers blew out the C's in Game #2, behind Chuck's 39 points on just 24 shots (16-24 overall, including a red-hot 7-10 from behind the arc. But hey, that's also 9-14 inside the arc in a playoff game so again ignore those "he was just a three-point specialist" remarks)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199104280BOS.html

There is a contingent of us that would love to get this particular game of this series onto the NBA Classics rotation.

Game #3 was UGLY. MSA was ready to explode. And Bird, McHale, and Parrish were ready to play defense. Chuck was awful. Just awful. 2-6 from the floor for six points.

Game #4 was a different story. Chuck erupted for 30 and Reggie added 27. The series went back to Boston tied at 2. And MSA was at its all-time loudest.

Dale Raterman, long time marketing director for the Pacers, describes Game #4 like this:


http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/msa_staff.html?quicktabs_tabs_social=2

:love:

I'll tell you from personal experience the following stories. I had 15th-row seats, across from the C's bench. When we parked in the lot at Arena Sporting Goods that night, the young "kid" (probably my age, I was a junior in college at the time) got out of the car wearing a Bird jersey and Pacers cap. Jay's_Dad@Section222 used his football coach's voice and said, "Young man, you are going to have to make up your mind before you walk into that arena. Us or them?" The kid was so intimidated he took off his Bird jersey and left it in the car.

At some point in the second half Rifleman hit a big shot, changing the momentum. The C's were going to call timeout after advancing the ball to halfcourt, but McHale passed to Bird or vise versa, Chuck intercepted the pass, dribbled about 15 feet for a 1 on 3 slow "fast" break, stopped and put a 28-footer right through the middle of the net. Now the C's called timeout and Chuck took a lap around MSA pounding his chest, further electrifying the 1/2 of the crowd that was cheering for the Pacers. The other 1/2 of the crowd was insulted that Chuck could show up their hero. In all of the years of going to games with a father that is a coach... well, he just doesn't cheer. He watches, and takes it all in, thinking about what his next move would be. I've gotten fewer than five high-fives from him in 35 years of going to Pacers games together. And that shot was one of them.

During either that timeout, or the quarter break mentioned above, the guy in a Green #33 jersey sitting behind me told me to sit down. This so-infuriated Jay's_Fiance@Section222 that she started yelling back at him. "At least he's cheering for the home team." Yep, she's a keeper.

Anyway, re-read that description above. Such a game.

Off to game five, the damn game we do get watch on NBA Classics. Stupid Larry Bird comes back after almost breaking his ugly face. And Rifleman has a great chance to send it to overtime and misses the biggest shot of his career. Chuck finished with 32 and the three-headed second options of Detlef, Micheal Williams and Reggie each had more than 20 in that game.

The Pacers did not regain the magic the following season. They struggled instead of breaking out. Young Dale Davis gradually replaced Tank Thompson. There were two players in the league that averaged 20-5-5 - Bird and Pippen. Or as Chuck likes to describe it, there were three players in the league that season that averaged 19-5-5 - Bird, Pippen and Rifleman.

But they were swept by Boston. Then Donnie Walsh outsmarted himself by trading Rifleman and Micheal Williams for a pile of Pooh (Richardson) and some spare change. The idea was that Detlef would be the team's new go-to guy. But that team also didn't really get its act together either and Bo Hill's contract was not renewed. Larry Brown came in, decided it was time for it to be Reggie's team and traded Detlef for McKey. Smits was finally ready to be a starter (you'll notice in that '91 series that Dreiling was starting ahead of Smits to keep Rik out of foul trouble). Antonio Davis was picked up, along with Workman. And Larry Brown had a vastly different team than Bo Hill's final season. But they got off to an awful start, 1-6, then up to 5-10, and still just 11-17 in early January and only 16-23 in late January before it clicked and they finished 31-12 over the last 2.5 months. Oh yeah, something else happened in there - Byron Scott signed and made it his personal mission to teach Reggie and the team what it meant to be winners.

Meanwhile, Chuck was banished to Minnesota where he was not part of their future. As a free-agent, he signed with San Antonio and was reunited with Bo Hill. Bo used him a lot at PF, and suddenly Chuck was back up to 5 rpg (and the second highest per-36 rebound rate of his career). Late during training camp of Chuck's second season in SA, there was a mishap at either the takeoff or landing of the team's charter plane. Chuck's back was wrecked. He only missed two games that year, but then he subsequently missed the entire following season. But he was in good company. David Robinson missed 70+ games, and Sean Elliott and Charles Smith each missed most of the season. With the exception of Will Purdue, that was the entire front court. Bo Hill got canned, they drafted Duncan, and the rest has been SA history. During the season that Chuck missed due to injury, the players responded to an ESPN or SI survey and one of the questions was "who's the best trash talker?" Chuck finished in the top-four. Hang on to this story... If you saw my comments in the Jalen Rose thread- that was also the Season We Do Not Discuss, and Rifleman spent the year rehabbing at his home in Geist, was seen at numerous Pacers games, and was paying Roger Brown's medical bills.

After one more year in SA, Chuck was traded to Chicago, cut immediately, and spent the lockout year in Charlotte.

He played one more season in Seattle. During the season, Gary Payton was asked about talking trash, and told the reporter he didn't think he was the even the best trash talker on his team. "Chuck Person missed an entire season and was still one of the top vote getters -- how can I top that?"

The eight-seeded Sonics playoff run ended in Utah in game #5 in a three-point loss. Chuck Person played one minute of Game #5, and was 0-1. Gary Payton threw him the ball for the last shot that looked eerily similar to that Game #5 loss in Boston a decade earlier. Here's how SI and Paul Westphal described the last shot of Chuck's career:



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2000/playoffs/news/2000/05/05/jazz_sonics_gm5_ap/

:love:

Grover
02-13-2013, 04:44 PM
My favorite memory of Chuck was actually when he got kicked out of a game. He took the ball and kicked it into the stands. Someone threw the ball back onto the court. Chuck took the ball and kicked it into the stands again. I still laugh about that to this day. THAT WAS AWESOME!

Naptown_Seth
02-13-2013, 04:53 PM
Back in the day you could meet Pacers at White Castle for appearances. I met Chuck at one and Michael Williams at one. In both cases the crowd was small enough that I got to talk to them for a fair amount of time. In fact Mike spoke with my g/f and myself for 15-20 minutes due to low turnout and him just being a really nice guy. (no reps, teammates, posse, handlers...the guy just drove there by himself and met people, despite it being an official team function...weird)

I tried to get Chuck to have the team use "Welcome to the Terrordome" as the team's MSA music, but I don't think he was much of a rap/PE fan based on his reaction (didn't really know the song).

But here's what makes the story strange by today's standards - not only did Chuck spend time talking to me in a White Castle but he also signed my PLAYOFF TICKETS because this all went down right before freaking GAME 3 vs the Celtics in the epic 5 game series that featured Chuck bombing and bragging and Bird coming back from smacking his head.

Can you imagine a crowd of 10-15 coming to see Granger, PG, Hibbert, Hill or West at a flipping WC during the Orlando series last year? Can you imagine the team even having them do it during the series? That's how freaking bad things were for the team, and credit to the players for putting out the effort when the city clearly didn't give a F about them.



Another indirect moment was when we drove down to see Mike Williams at another event in Edinburgh just a day or too after Chuck punted the basketball deep into the stands in Chicago due to bad calls/technical/ejection (can't recall if it was 2nd T or what). Mike remembered us and spent a few minutes talking to me, but his first question right away was "what did that look like on TV" and "what did you think about it". It was funny how much he enjoyed it.



My favorite Pacers game might be game 4 vs the Celtics. They were 1-1 and lost game 3 at home, but then made it a 5 game series with a big game 4 win in MSA. For the first time ever the city kinda thought the team might win a series. It was their first time winning more than one NBA playoff game (hard to believe now). The crowd was loud and pretty full. Chuck and Reggie both went off and after the game they both came out and waved to the crowd, etc. That's the game I'd love to see on Classic NBA or DVD.

BTW, the tickets I had him sign were for game 3. Drat.



Chuck was, by far, the leader of the Pacers. His personality dwarfed Reggie. When he'd get going he'd yap and have his head bobbing/nodding almost like he was getting out of control. Watch game 5 vs Boston when they show it and look at the insane 3 he makes very late in that game from almost HC. Not a heave, but a true "F it, I'm dropping this shot from out here" jumper.

Reggie went on to become great for his catch and shoots, but Chuck's thing was DEEP threes and massive smack.


Kellogg and Stipo had promise, but Chuck was the Pacers first NBA star. His ROY win was a massive badge for Pacers fans. His era was the first sparks of a dead engine sputtering to life. It took some time to get it going, but he was the first time you thought it was possible.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 05:19 PM
Here's a good one about one of the rematches after the "punt". Pippen's punt! (This is required reading for Reggie's contribution. Seriously, click the link. You'll be laughing.)

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-03-04/sports/9201210003_1_scottie-pippen-reggie-miller-foul

Box score:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199203030CHI.html

I need to find the original Tribune article, though I only saw it in the print edition of the Taylor University library back in the day.

The Bulls proceded to declare that Chuck Person "had the least class of any player in the NBA" after the second punt of the ball into the stands, because the ball had the audacity to land near where the coach's wives were sitting.

So when Reggie goaded Pippen into punting that ball...

:lol:

(Still looking for the other one, in context it is great too.)

Naptown_Seth
02-13-2013, 05:24 PM
Hold on, the Chuck trade WAS NOT TO BUILD AROUND REGGIE. It wasn't.

It was Bob Hill (or Walsh) in love with a big name PG who would lead the team because they thought Michael wasn't enough. They loved the IDEA of Pooh, but the truth of Pooh was that he sucked. The trade was a disaster because Michale was like George Hill now, good enough to be your PG if it allows you to keep bigger stars.

Detlef wasn't traded to make it Reggie's team either. Detlef was traded because A) that's what Brown does, he insists on moves to make it "his" team and B) there was concern that the team had too many scorers, because for some reason they thought that was a thing.

Of course RUN-TMC proved that 3 offensive minded gunners could play together. And Brown proved that even if you get rid of your all-star (Det was the more recent AS and would be an AS with Seattle too, while McKey never made the ASG) there was still enough talent to win if you used it right. Jay likes Bob Hill but to me he wasted talent. Hill was just a lot better than Versace, so it's like following JOB with Isiah.


They never should have traded Det, even though McKey was a great defender and they 100% never should have wasted their time trying to get a "name" PG...although there was a bit of that going on when they went after Jackson later, but in some ways he was trying to recover his name in LAC after "failing" in NYC.

Williams went on to set the NBA record for consecutive FTM in Minny, BTW. Then he got injured and his career was over.




Also, by far the greatest Pacers trade ever was sending Herb to Dallas for Detlef. Not young Herb either, but old Herb for a rising NBA star that was a key figure in the pre-drug implosion of the first great Mavericks team.



To think what the 88-93 era Pacers could have been with good coaching. If only they'd done what Detroit did and find a good coach and stick with him and the roster as it grew. I posted elsewhere how Detroit just kept things intact despite numerous playoff "failures", having the vision to believe in their talent.



Also Jay mentioned them "getting Antonio", but some of you might not realize that the Pacers drafted him and then let him play in Europe for 2 seasons (as I recall, maybe just 1) to season his game a bit. He was the team's best 2nd round pick ever. Sorry Lance fans, but not only was Tony great in general, but he made the ASG too (after being traded unfortunately).


Draft smart, trade smart, keep the team together. This is where you have Rik, Dale, Reggie, Tony together for years and years and across multiple coaches. That's why they were so great by 1998. That and the fact that somehow you rented Jax to Denver for a half-season in order to get Rose.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 05:45 PM
Here's a good one about one of the rematches after the "punt". Pippen's punt! (This is required reading for Reggie's contribution. Seriously, click the link. You'll be laughing.)

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-03-04/sports/9201210003_1_scottie-pippen-reggie-miller-foul

Box score:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199203030CHI.html

I need to find the original Tribune article, though I only saw it in the print edition of the Taylor University library back in the day.

The Bulls proceded to declare that Chuck Person "had the least class of any player in the NBA" after the second punt of the ball into the stands, because the ball had the audacity to land near where the coach's wives were sitting.

So when Reggie goaded Pippen into punting that ball...

:lol:

(Still looking for the other one, in context it is great too.)

Here's the original...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-03-24/sports/9101260898_1_bulls-dressing-room-reggie-miller-bulls-coach-phil-jackson

(I hate that ***hole Jordan. Can I type that while within Chicago city limits. If this is my last post ever, you know why...)

Here's his quote:

Person was ejected in the fourth quarter after kicking the basketball nearly into the first balcony following a foul and near fight with Will Perdue in which Person tossed the ball at Perdue. ``We maintained our poise and let our basketball do the talking,`` said Jordan. ``Person`s actions certainly were discrediting to the NBA. To show your temper that way when you get kicked out of the ballgame, you don`t drop kick the ball into the crowd and possibly hurt someone. I`m pretty sure the league will look at it and take some action.``

Michael Jordan can **** my ****.

Pretty sure he didn't say the same when Pippen punted the ball in the stands.

Again, some great trash talking by Reggie going on here, too. Click the link.

And here's the article where we kicked their butts for the sixth straight time at MSA three weeks prior, ending the Bulls' 11 game winning streak away from MSA, after which Reggie said, "Take away Michael and who do they have? A bunch of nobodies."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-03-03/sports/9101200291_1_bulls-reggie-miller-horace-grant

I'm with Reggie. Pippen was horribly overrated. And we matched up well with Boston and Chicago back in that era but couldn't consistently take care of the teams we were supposed to beat.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 06:26 PM
Reggie's "never take advice from chuck person" stories were always the best


I'd love for somebody to be commissioned to do a Terry Pluto/ Loose Balls style of book and sit down Person, Miller, Barkley, Gary Payton, Drexler, T. Hardaway, Dominique, Tom Chambers, and a few other guys from that era and get them to tell stories and talk trash. I'm guessing Barkley and Reggie could drive an entire chapter of "Never take advice from Chuck Person" stories. In the early to mid 90s, Jordan, Bird and Magic got all the headlines but there was a very interesting league elsewhere and unlike the 80s and CBS, NBC was covering the entire league.


= = = = = = = = =

A friend's kid was a Pacers' ballboy in that era. He said as long as you had a Snickers bar on Mr. Person's chair after practice he was a happy camper.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 07:33 PM
You may be bored with this, but I'm not. Here are a few from the SI archives:

Early in his rookie season:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126858/1/index.htm

Highlight...


He's averaging a team-high 17.4 points, most of them with that glorious jumper from 18 feet or a whole lot farther—he hit a 40-foot fadeaway buzzer-beater last month to edge Milwaukee (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Milwaukee/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) 104-103—but that's not the point. He truly tries hard all the time, which makes him real special in the NBA (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/National_Basketball_Association/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm). He rebounds (averaging a team-leading 8.9 caroms per game), he runs the fast break and unerringly hits the right man, and—no joke—he plays defense. "Offense takes innate talent," says Person, "but defense just takes practice and guts."

Yet who wants to rebound, make assists, play defense? Well, Person does: "You have to love all parts of the game," he says. "Besides, it's an awful easy job for incredible money, isn't it?"

Christmas 1989/ early in Dick Versace's first full season, which got off to a red-hot start. In part because Chuck and Reggie were both in the top-five in the league in minutes played. This did catch up with them on their way back down to 0.500:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1069274/1/index.htm

Highlight...



In the locker room after the Denver (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Denver/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) game, Person made a point of whispering encouraging words in Smits (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Rik_Smits/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)'s ear. Person had been an unpopular first-round pick by Walsh (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Donnie_Walsh/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) in 1986—Pacer fans preferred Indiana (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Indiana_Pacers/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) native Scott Skiles—but was named Rookie of the Year. In the two seasons since then, he has struggled with his roles on the court and as a captain this season and last. Five days after saying he wanted to assume the leadership role, he showed up late to a shootaround. He either shot too little or was selfish, spoke out too often or was silent. Person took a lot of the heat for the Pacers' prolonged funks but was still expected to bail them out in the clutch, as he did when he made a last-second jump shot to give the Pacers their two-point win over the Bulls on Dec. 8.

THE Boston series:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1139838/1/index.htm

Highlight...


The Rifleman had had the last word in Game 4, when after scoring 12 straight Indiana points in the final five minutes, Person backpedaled downcourt, gestured wildly to the crowd and shouted. "Nobody can guard me! Nobody! I'm a bad man!"

Person's performance that night was an uncanny display of nervy pressure shooting, even if the primary defensive victim was Bird, who these days would have trouble covering a book in the open floor.

Person's last three-pointer, with 2:06 to go, was the backbrcaker. With the score tied 109-109, Bird had tried to slip an entry pass down low to McHale, but Person—whom the Celtics consider not merely a bad defender but a horrible one—stepped in front of McHale and made the steal. He dribbled up the right wing with only one thought in mind and pulled up and let fly from the three-point line. "I shot it as high as I could," said Person, "so everyone could admire it."

The ball went in and for one brief and shining moment, Chuck Connors Person (that's his real name) was the best darned jump shooter on the planet. Afterward, in the Pacer locker room, he was predictably Chuck-full of comments. A sampling:

•"Larry knew I was in his ear, and now I'm going to be in his dreams."
•"I knew when Larry and McHale got on me, the shots were going in. It's like I was out there for target practice, shooting H-O-R-S-E by myself."
•"Unless they come up with something different, we're going to go tear some of that parquet up in Boston."

After he joined San Antonio:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1005915/index.htm

Highlight...


Now Person is reunited with Spur coach Bob Hill (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Bob_Hill_Basketball/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), a former coach with the Pacers (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Indiana_Pacers/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), Person (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Chuck_Person/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)'s team for his first six NBA (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/National_Basketball_Association/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) seasons. Hill says Person (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Chuck_Person/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) is good for any team. "He's one of the most intelligent players on the court, one of the hungriest and one of the best practice players," Hill says.

Person (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Chuck_Person/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) has always been a terrific shooter. He and Larry Bird (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Larry_Bird/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) used to play one-on-one during the summers in Indiana (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Indiana_Pacers/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm). Who's better? Person (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Chuck_Person/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) says, "From 15 to 16 feet he's better. From outside the arc there's no question who's better." O.K., who's better: Person (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Chuck_Person/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) or Reggie Miller (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Reggie_Miller/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)? "It's about even," Person says. "We'll shoot H-O-R-S-E for an hour, all shots behind the old arc, and we'd make 25, 30, 40 in a row. It would be amazing." Is there a better shooter than Person (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Chuck_Person/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm)? "As much as I hate to say this," he replies, "Wesley is better." Wesley is Chuck's younger brother, a rookie with the Phoenix Suns (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Phoenix_Suns/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm).

Sollozzo
02-13-2013, 08:18 PM
So Bird and Person used to meet up in the summers and play HORSE? That's pretty cool.

http://trackemtigers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/person.jpg

speakout4
02-13-2013, 08:24 PM
I don't remember exactly when this occurred but I would see Chuck and sometimes Clark K. at Bally's at keystone at the Crossing. I remember that he would just ramble on to anyone and not saying anything in particular that made sense and thinking he was just a dumb guy. I was surprised when his coaching career started and had to come to the conclusion that it was just an act that he appeared to be not too bright.

owl
02-13-2013, 08:56 PM
I don't remember exactly when this occurred but I would see Chuck and sometimes Clark K. at Bally's at keystone at the Crossing. I remember that he would just ramble on to anyone and not saying anything in particular that made sense and thinking he was just a dumb guy. I was surprised when his coaching career started and had to come to the conclusion that it was just an act that he appeared to be not too bright.

Used to see Chuck and Vern up at the Y playing games. And yes Chuck could dunk the ball. In his later years with a bad back he had problems dunking. I had forgotten the Chuck punts. Good times. Only to be out done by Reggies bow after hittting the supposed winning shot in Chicago. Better times.

Mr_Smith
02-13-2013, 10:12 PM
Getting Chucks autograph when I was a member of the Junior Pacers club waaaay back in 91'@ University of Indianapolis. Another one that was already mentioned.....Chuck kicking the ball into the stands at Chicago Stadium. I was only 9 at the time but I still remember it.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 10:33 PM
So Bird and Person used to meet up in the summers and play HORSE? That's pretty cool.

http://trackemtigers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/person.jpg

This was an era where you went at each other like mad on the court, but everybody hung out in the offseason. Don't remember if Chuck would drive down to French Lick, if Bird came up to Geist, or if they met at a neutral court.

EDIT - in the Barkley interview posted below, Chuck said they'd all meet at Hinkle in the summers to play pickup games.

Bird used to sponsor a charity game at MSA every summer. This is what NBA summers were like 25 years ago...

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1990-08-24/sports/9008240234_1_charity-games-monday-game-dominique-wilkins

MagicRat
02-13-2013, 10:53 PM
Bird used to sponsor a charity game at MSA every summer. This is what NBA summers were like 25 years ago...

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1990-08-24/sports/9008240234_1_charity-games-monday-game-dominique-wilkins

Chuck threw down an unbelievable dunk in Larry's Game one year. He said jokingly he was going to add it to his regular game....

Of course that was before:

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/Chuckburger.jpg

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7666000.htmlBad back and all, Bird goes one-on-one with Person

http://hbr.hbrstatic.com/PubLogo/2935.gif
The Boston Globe (Boston, MA)
June 24, 1991 | Peter May, Globe Staff (http://www.highbeam.com/Search?searchTerm=author%3a%22Peter+May%2c+Globe+S taff%22&orderBy=Date+DESC) | Copyright



Permalink


INDIANAPOLIS -- The war of words, mixed with the predictable smiles and laughter, continues between those two noted quotemasters, Larry Bird and Chuck Person.

The two were at it again last night as Person played in, and Bird coached/watched the fourth annual Larry's Game at Market Square Arena. They tossed generally good-natured verbal darts at each other in the Pacers-Celtics playoff series last April and they were doing the same last night.

"I hope Larry comes back," Person said. "I want to send him out in style, the right way. I want to give him his going-away party."

Bird was asked if he had had any offseason contact with Person.

"Chuck works for me. He mows …

Sollozzo
02-13-2013, 11:08 PM
This was an era where you went at each other like mad on the court, but everybody hung out in the offseason. Don't remember if Chuck would drive down to French Lick, if Bird came up to Geist, or if they met at a neutral court.

Bird used to sponsor a charity game at MSA every summer. This is what NBA summers were like 25 years ago...

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1990-08-24/sports/9008240234_1_charity-games-monday-game-dominique-wilkins

Interesting. I found another article about "Larry's Game" from 1988:

INDIANAPOLIS — Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan will headline the cast for a benefit basketball game June 26 in Market Square Arena.

Bird is the official host for "Larry's Game," which will provide scholarships for Indiana students at state universities and colleges.

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-19/sports/sp-7642_1_magic-johnson

I bet that was a packed house. Bird and Magic in the prime of their careers, along with a young 45 coming fresh off an MVP season, scoring title, dunk contest, and DPOY. Chuck was also there.

EDIT: Also found an SI article about the 89 game:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1068549/1/index.htm

ChicagoJ
02-14-2013, 01:08 AM
YES!! A ChuckBurger sighting. Its been reloaded!

Eraser
02-14-2013, 01:43 AM
Thanks for sharing. Brings back some great memories. I was a huge Chuck fan and was there for Game 4 vs. Celtics. Definitely true about crowd willing Pacers to victory. I remember players saying afterwards that it was loudest crowd that they had ever heard. Roof nearly blew off when Chuck stopped for that 'fast break' three.

Also LOVED Chuck kicking ball way into stands in Chicago. Always admired players who hated to lose more than the so many that seem not to care. Thanks again for the post.

rabid
02-14-2013, 02:07 AM
Thanks for sharing. Brings back some great memories. I was a huge Chuck fan and was there for Game 4 vs. Celtics. Definitely true about crowd willing Pacers to victory. I remember players saying afterwards that it was loudest crowd that they had ever heard. Roof nearly blew off when Chuck stopped for that 'fast break' three.

Also LOVED Chuck kicking ball way into stands in Chicago. Always admired players who hated to lose more than the so many that seem not to care. Thanks again for the post.

Post more Eraser! 17 posts in 9 years is too few!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQZYqT6Hh8A

Peck
02-14-2013, 02:44 AM
Good Lord this thread is filled with fantasy, revisionism and good old fashioned horse ****.

I can’t tell from reading Jay’s posts if were talking about Chuck Person or Elgin Baylor.

But far be it from me to interject any reality (stuffing Dave Overpeck in a trash can) into this highly entertaining thread.

I’m willing to overlook the slights and insults to Clark Kellogg (Jay’s irrational hatred of C.K. rivals my irrational hatred of Jermaine O’Neal) and I’m even willing to pretend that the trade was made with anything in mind other than getting more for less but what I can not and will not do is pretend to let the statements of Chuck Person being the first player to take us to the Playoffs and the first star in the NBA.

If I did I would be required to turn in my Billy Knight fan card and burn all of the golden idols I’ve made to him over the years. Yes kids prior to the immortal Dale Davis elevating himself to Godhood I was a fan of a totally opposite kind of player.

Both Billy Knight & Don Buse made the 1976/77 All-Star game.

Billy was second only to Pete Maravich that season in scoring for the entire league avg. 26.6 ppg.

Don Buse had an even better year leading the league in both Steals 3.5 spg and assists at 8.5 (most of those going to Billy).

So no Chuck Person was not the first star in the NBA for the Pacers, both of these players were stars.

As to the playoffs? The team made the playoffs in the 1980/81 season led by Billy Knight who had returned to the team via trade as well as Don Buse who also came back to the team that year but by that time injury and age had taken its toll on Don so he was not the player he was just 4 years before.

All kidding aside I liked Chuck (not to the insane level that Jay did) and him kicking the ball into the stands at the old Chicago Stadium may be one of my favorite Pacers memory’s ever. In fact I wish they would play that in our opening montage prior to tip off.

I do have another more personal anecdote to share in ref. to the Rifleman. Diamond Dave was born on the day that Chuck Person was drafted. I kept telling my wife she either had to do this before or after because I didn’t want to miss the draft but no, he had to come out that day. My belief is that he felt the need to warn us all about Chuck’s lack of defense but I can’t prove it.

Anyway now that I’ve had my moment of reality I now turn you back to the imaginary world where Chuck Person was a God. ;)

Kstat
02-14-2013, 03:35 AM
Peck and jay are two of my favorite people in all of Internet-land...so of course I'm in the middle on this issue...

I do take offense to peck trying to butt in on the ten-year running joke that has been me needling Jay about Chuck's defense....

Whenever I think of chuck vs. Larry, i immediately think of the Monty python skit with the knight provoking a duel, getting all of his limbs chopped off and yet somehow believes he's winning the fight...

Where do you think you're going, Larry?

Chuck, the game's over. I scored 38 points and we won by fifteen. I'm going to the locker room.

Oh, running away are you? Get back here!

ChicagoJ
02-14-2013, 11:30 AM
Good Lord this thread is filled with fantasy, revisionism and good old fashioned horse ****.

I can’t tell from reading Jay’s posts if were talking about Chuck Person or Elgin Baylor.

But far be it from me to interject any reality (stuffing Dave Overpeck in a trash can) into this highly entertaining thread.

Oh you had to go there, did you? It was a closed locker room. Just because Overpeck was trespassing in order to apologize to Tank Thompson for the nasty article he'd just published doesn't give him a free pass. Chuck was just enforcing the "no media allowed" rules.
:laugh:

Or not...

EDIT - did I ever tell this story on here. Back when I worked downtown, my gym membership included access to NIFS. I was over there shortly after Robin Miller wrote his article on Neto's red white and blue money ball. Robin was in the lockerroom at the same time and was passing the ball around, giving Neto free advertising.

So I said, "Hey, Robin, which trash can exactly did Chuck stuff your colleague in?" He just laughed. And pointed to a trash can at the end of the row of lockers.



I’m willing to overlook the slights and insults to Clark Kellogg (Jay’s irrational hatred of C.K. rivals my irrational hatred of Jermaine O’Neal) and I’m even willing to pretend that the trade was made with anything in mind other than getting more for less but what I can not and will not do is pretend to let the statements of Chuck Person being the first player to take us to the Playoffs and the first star in the NBA.

If I did I would be required to turn in my Billy Knight fan card and burn all of the golden idols I’ve made to him over the years. Yes kids prior to the immortal Dale Davis elevating himself to Godhood I was a fan of a totally opposite kind of player.

Both Billy Knight & Don Buse made the 1976/77 All-Star game.

Billy was second only to Pete Maravich that season in scoring for the entire league avg. 26.6 ppg.

Don Buse had an even better year leading the league in both Steals 3.5 spg and assists at 8.5 (most of those going to Billy).

So no Chuck Person was not the first star in the NBA for the Pacers, both of these players were stars.

As to the playoffs? The team made the playoffs in the 1980/81 season led by Billy Knight who had returned to the team via trade as well as Don Buse who also came back to the team that year but by that time injury and age had taken its toll on Don so he was not the player he was just 4 years before.

True, but the 1981 team played a best of three series and got thumped in two uncompetitive games. (108-124 @ Philly, Julius dropped 32; and 85-96 in front of a whopping 8,921 fans at MSA. Were the curtains down?

http://001-jk-files.s3.amazonaws.com/images/boxscores/198104020IND.jpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198104020IND.html

What we said was Chuck led them to their first NBA playoff win, and captivated the fans into a pair of sold-out home playoff games.


All kidding aside I liked Chuck (not to the insane level that Jay did)

I'm clearly not healthy...


and him kicking the ball into the stands at the old Chicago Stadium may be one of my favorite Pacers memory’s ever. In fact I wish they would play that in our opening montage prior to tip off.

I do have another more personal anecdote to share in ref. to the Rifleman. Diamond Dave was born on the day that Chuck Person was drafted. I kept telling my wife she either had to do this before or after because I didn’t want to miss the draft but no, he had to come out that day. My belief is that he felt the need to warn us all about Chuck’s lack of defense but I can’t prove it.

Anyway now that I’ve had my moment of reality I now turn you back to the imaginary world where Chuck Person was a God. ;)

Its a happier world.

:hippie:

RWB
02-14-2013, 11:39 AM
My favorite Chuck moment..... The Mrs. and I had season tickets back during the George Irvine plaque. The year before I remember vividly an interview with the Trailblazers where some players were asked "What do you think of the Pacers?". The answer given..... they're a bunch of really nice guys but honestly it's like playing a semi pro team. As a fan of the Pacers that hurt and was such an embarrassment that another team could disrespect them that much.

Enter 1986 with a new coach in Jack Ramsey and a new brash forward out of Auburn that changed within the first month the following season. Chuck will go down in my top 3 NBA Pacer favorites. It was the 3rd or 4th home game of the season and the Pacers were down to the Milwaukee Bucks. IIRMC it was 2 seconds or less and I naturally thought the game was over even though we had the ball. Previous bad losing seasons had jaded me big time. Ball comes into the Rifleman and with an awkward off balance catch and shoot ....boom baby.... do you believe in miracles. That my friends was the first time I realised we have a team that doesn't have to take **** from no one.

On a pesonal note the Mrs. and I had an opportunity to Chuck on many occasions and he was always very approachable. Funny thing during that time Wayman Tisdale had this reputation of being the big ole jolly goofy grin guy who you expected to embrace the fans. Chuck really liked the attention and Wayman would rather not be bothered.

ChicagoJ
02-14-2013, 02:46 PM
For Chuck's first game back in MSA while playing for the Timberwolves, it was actually Micheal Williams that stole the show in crunch time and helf off the Pacers' rally.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199302120IND.html

There were a large number of navy #45 jerseys in the stands that night. Rumors were bouncing around the arena that Chuck and Micheal might come back out and say hi to friends and sign autographs. When the game ended, we didn't head for the exit we walked toward Aisle #12 and were standing behind the Wolves' bench.

Christian Laettner was a rookie for the Wolves that season, and was also known to come out of the lockerrom after the game looking for cute females to talk to.

There were more than a 1,000 people surrounding the tunnel at the east end of MSA. Micheal came out and quietly talked to some people Chuck doesn't do anything quiet, and came out to a nice ovation. Laettner came out, and this might be the one game of the season that nobody wanted to talk to him. He wondered around, he'd probably never seen anything quite like that - "a crowd of people out here and not one of them wants to see me?!" Lots of people were saying to Chuck, "Come home, please, this trade is killing us." The Pacers were in the middle of a seven-game losing streak at that time.

Somebody to my side shouted, "Say something, Chuck!" And Chuck's response?

"Boom, Baby!", he yelled, then jogged back into the wrong tunnel... the east tunnel.

Here's an early article of how the trade was pretty much neutral to both teams (as they both had different/ bigger problems that weren't addressed by the trade):

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-01-05/sports/1993005135_1_pacers-laettner-smits

ChicagoJ
02-14-2013, 03:05 PM
Great sit down with Barkley from a couple of years ago.. some rare Game #4 footage in the first minute or two.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/barkley_zone/2009/07/01/nba_whereyoubeen_person.nba/

danman
02-14-2013, 06:27 PM
A few opinions:

"Then Donnie Walsh outsmarted himself by trading Rifleman and Micheal Williams for a pile of Pooh (Richardson) and some spare change."

That "spare change" included Sam Mitchell, the leader in the locker room in the Pacer glory days in the 90's. C'mon now.

Larry said 'Merry Christmas.'

No, Larry said 'Merry CENSORED Christmas.' Rhymes with mucking.

re: Chuck's BB IQ was equal to Larry's

Jebus wept. No. No! Loved the Rifleman, but he was terrible defensively and a poor passer. Not a clever scorer, either. Not sure where the IQ would be demonstrated.

Detlef shouldn't have been traded.

Yes he should've. Det was a stat stuffer who didn't fit. Heavy D Mckey saved the Pacer butts so often it was ridiculous. Or put another way, the classic 90's Pacers played excellent D with the slowest starting center and point guard in the league. The Davises were stout, and Reggie was okay, but Heavy D was Heavy D. Recognize.

ChicagoJ
02-14-2013, 08:06 PM
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7666000.htmlBad back and all, Bird goes one-on-one with Person

http://hbr.hbrstatic.com/PubLogo/2935.gif
The Boston Globe (Boston, MA)
June 24, 1991 | Peter May, Globe Staff (http://www.highbeam.com/Search?searchTerm=author%3a%22Peter+May%2c+Globe+S taff%22&orderBy=Date+DESC) | Copyrigh

Free trial for the entire article. Plenty of hilarity involved...

INDIANAPOLIS -- The war of words, mixed with the predictable smiles and laughter, continues between those two noted quotemasters, Larry Bird and Chuck Person.

The two were at it again last night as Person played in, and Bird coached/watched the fourth annual Larry's Game at Market Square Arena. They tossed generally good-natured verbal darts at each other in the Pacers-Celtics playoff series last April and they were doing the same last night.

"I hope Larry comes back," Person said. "I want to send him out in style, the right way. I want to give him his going-away party."

Bird was asked if he had had any offseason contact with Person.

"Chuck works for me. He mows my yard. I see him every day," Bird said.

Does he do a good job?

"Not really. He has to ride."

Bird continued, "if it wasn't for Chuck, I'd be averaging about 12 points a game in my career. He reminds me a lot of my little brother. I want to beat him real bad every time I play him."

Bird also said his triple-double against Indiana in Game 1 of the quarterfinal series should carry an asterisk because he did it against Person.

What about it, Chuck?

"Actually, he was lucky I didn't guard him," Person maintained. "Then he would have had an awful series and everyone would have wanted to trade him instead of making him have surgery and bringing him back for another year. They would have wanted him to retire. I let some other guys guard him so he could have a good series and come back and help the league next year."

Bird had the final word slight, however. He was the coach on Person's team. And that afforded him the opportunity to turn his back on the Pacers' motormouth during the introductions.

Bird sat on the bench during the game, letting Pacer coach Bob Hill call the shots, such as they needed to be called. He wore a white "Larry's Game" shirt, a far cry from his street clothes attire, an olive green shirt with some unreadable black scribblings on it.

His coaching debut ended with a 178-170 defeat, despite 22 points from Dee Brown. Afterward, Charles Barkley noted, "There is one thing you cannot have in this game and expect to win and that's poor coaching. I knew when Larry showed up with a beer at halftime that it wasn't all that serious."

The Celtics' franchise forward is getting in his 7 miles a day of walking. He's also doing some exercises in water, although he wouldn't call it swimming. "Flopping around a little bit," he said.

The summer is only a few days old and already Bird said his biggest enemy is boredom. There are only so many baseball games to see, and he does watch a lot of them. He has done a little fishing, but finds that tiring because he has to stand all the time.

He made no predictions as to when he might be able to play. Or, for that matter, if he even would play. He is encouraged that there has been no pain since the day he left New England Baptist Hospital 16 days ago.

"I'll be glad when the summer is over," he said. "To see if I can play without pain or play at all."

He repeated his recent thoughts on the Celtics. Brian Shaw should not be traded or even shopped. The team can play with anyone if everyone is healthy. They should have beaten the Pistons even with their injuries. They could use an outside shooter in the draft.

And, he said, he really doesn't have any regrets about the way he handled things as the season -- and the pain -- intensified.

"When you're limited and can't prepare yourself, it's frustrating," he said. "I chose to play and do my best. I probably feel better about myself this year than I ever have. What I went through, the problems I had and the way I dealt with them."

But didn't even he think things became a bit absurd? Like, for instance, spending the night in the hospital in traction?

"Sometimes you've gotta do things that you don't feel like doing and don't want to do," he said. "For some reason, my body has been good to me and overcome a lot of adversity. There was a lot of days I lay there and didn't think I could play."

And he made it clear that if there are any of those days next season, he won't play.

"I'm not going through another year like I did last year," he said. "As a matter of fact, it's got to feel pretty good. I'm not going to whine about retiring now because I want to play. I'll have to see how it feels. It's very important for me to have a healthy back for the rest of my life, instead of beating and banging for another season."

ChicagoJ
02-14-2013, 08:16 PM
Digging around with my free trial...


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7657889.html

Here's Bob Ryan's article after Game #2 of the 1991 playoffs. I'm going to highlight one thing in here that is particuarly interesting to all those that are so fixated with Larry Bird's milk-drinker comment a few years ago...


With just over a minute to go, and the stunning Pacer victory safely stowed away in the icebox, Reggie Miller was dribbling away a little time when Chuck Person started calling for the ball.
"Reggie!" he pleaded. "Lemme have one more three, Reggie. I want one more three!"

Person already had an NBA playoff record seven 3-pointers. He had personally acted as Boston's Lord High Executioner, humiliating the Celtics on their own hallowed floor by scoring 39 points without the aid of a free throw. But he wanted more. He wanted to hear the Celtics, the Garden fans, the city of Boston and all of New England bleat a pathetic no mas. Chuck Person was going to extract every minute bit of pleasure from this exquisite afternoon of basketball virtuosity he possibly could.

"I love it," he declared when the 130-118 win was finally recorded in the books. "National TV. Parquet floor. Those {expletive} banners up there. The leprechauns. They were all trying to stop me, and no one did."

How good was Chuck Person yesterday? "Gym rats all over America had to love that performance," said Miller. "There'll be guys going out there now throwing up shots from everywhere after watching that. When I'm in awe, that's saying something, because I feel I'm the best shooter in the league."

Not yesterday. The NBA is a gunfighter's circuit, and there was no one in the league -- or, for that matter, in the world -- who could have shot a basketball with more precision and accuracy and flair and sheer destructiveness than Chuck Person did in Boston Garden on this particular Sunday afternoon.

He hit shots from straight down the middle. He hit shots from the left wing. He hit shots from the right wing. He hit shots from the corner. He hit turnarounds. He hit shots on transition, catching long passes and firing up effortless treys that did not so much strike the nylon cords as they did caress them. There was none of this "shooter's roll," bounce around the rim six times and fall in stuff. He could have scored his 39 points had the rim circumference been reduced by 6 inches. What more can you say? He was so devastating that even Reggie Miller was impressed.

Remember, please, that he was doing this on the road in a playoff game against the most tradition-laden team in basketball. He had willingly assumed the role of Public Enemy No. 1 by initiating a public spat with the ultimate local hero. On Friday night Larry Bird put down Chuck Person. The Celtics won the game and Larry Bird got the headlines. Yesterday Chuck Person orchestrated the videotape he's always wanted of a Celtics-Pacers game, out-Larrying Larry in his own living room and then trashing said icon when it was over.

"This is my day in the sun," he smirked. "I got the last laugh here in the Garden. Maybe I'll have to go home and put my arm in traction tonight."

When he couldn't think of anything else to say, Person outlined the strategy for doing it all over again when the teams resume combat Wednesday night at Market Square Arena.

"We've basically got mismatches at every position," he explained. "Now, being a scorer, I've got to know how to analyze the tendencies of the defensive players. {Kevin} Gamble and {Reggie} Lewis, I just take them low. Kevin and Larry, they know I can take them off the dribble, so they back off and give me the shot. If they do get up, I just take one dribble and I can get free for the shot."

Humility, you may have noted, is not one of Person's long suits.

"Chuck talks," admits Indiana president Donnie Walsh, "but he can back it up. You've gotta have some guys like that on your team. This is not a melba toast league."

Chuck Person has always done a lot of talking for a guy who in five seasons has yet to appear in an All-Star Game. Granted, the small forward spot is a glamour position, and the East All-Star team always seems to be clogged up with such names as Bird, McHale, Barkley, Wilkins, King and a few others of note, but if Chuck's as good as he suggests, he'd have a little more hardware and jewelry to display. Or perhaps all he's needed is the proper forum to display his talents. Dropping seven threes and 39 points on the Celtics in a playoff game at the Garden tends to get people's attention.

"I've seen him shoot that way before," says Walsh, "but this was for a lot higher stakes. I've always thought he was on the borderline between very good and great."

"I've seen him play that way before," agreed LaSalle Thompson. "Today you saw it."

The Pacers long ago reconciled themselves to Person's bravado, his swagger, his taunting, his emotional outbursts, his basic, well, Chuckness. Person, unlike most players, really wants to be the complete center of attention. "No matter what I do in a game," he shrugs, "if we lose, it's my fault. That's fine with me. I've got wide enough shoulders to carry the load."

Even a bored Chuck Person has more confidence than 95 percent of his peers. With this historic performance as a springboard, the question arises: What outrageous things might he say and do when the Celtics arrive Wednesday night?

"Good question," smiles Reggie Miller. "With Chuck, anything is possible."



"Melba Toast League"??!? Donnie, :wtf:

Naptown_Seth
02-14-2013, 10:14 PM
Sorry Danman, but the Sonics W/L record begs to differ. Detlef was fine. He didn't fill up empty stats, he did whatever needed to be done. He could pull you outside for the 3, he could get the pass you needed and he rebounded as well as Paul George did. And he did it all coming off the bench in a league where everyone wants to be a starter.

McKey was also functional and a strong defensive player. But the the 2000 Pacers went to the Finals NOT ON DEFENSE, BUT ON OFFENSE (and McKey played a lot less minutes for that team). They weren't just good on offense, they were elite on offense. So this idea that you had to lock guys down as the only way to win is just not true.

Larry Brown (even if he didn't believe it), Phil, Pop, Sloan, and Carlisle/Bird - these guys would have won a ton of games with a roster of Jax/Workman, Reggie, Chuck/Detlef/Dale, Rik - Tony, Best. Bob Hill was a classic .500 coach and proved it elsewhere. Worth giving a shot to coach, but not on par with the title winning coaches.


This is what bothers me the most about so few Pacers games featuring Detlef on Classic/DVD. The Reggie in Charlotte game shows Detlef all over the place, and that's not even one of his elite games. The nights he was hitting triple doubles or close to them, you knew he was out there. Those weren't "empty" stats.



It's like saying Carlisle was better off without Brad Miller because the team won so many more games. No he wasn't. He was just so much better as a coach than Isiah that despite a roster handicap he still won a lot more.

Brown was better than Bob Hill, and if they'd kept Detlef then right now you'd be remember a bunch of different big plays Det made on the ECF runs instead of McKey. Different, maybe not defensive, but some assists, scores, or rebounds that were key to the wins. Because with Brown instead of Hill they were going to win more, period. Plus Brown was also given Antonio Davis for free that first year because he was just coming back from Europe.


McKey was a great Pacers and a tough defender, clearly far better than Detlef on defense. But Det crushed him on offense and made All-Star teams with 2 different teams and as a bench player in the case of the Pacers. How many 6th men also make the ASG? Not many.

Naptown_Seth
02-14-2013, 10:21 PM
Again, read Jay's posted articles from game 2. Now look at my story about Chuck doing a flipping WC appearance AFTER that game and BEFORE game 3. And you get 15-20 fans showing up?

Remember this when the liars tell you how they were always being the team and always loved Reggie. It's total bulls***. MSA did worse back then than the BiLF just did for that Bobcats game. If it's not IU they don't care and never did.


Game 3 and 4 of that series were the first time MSA really seemed to fill up, and as Jay mentions it had to do just as much with all the Larry Bird fans that wore Celtics jerseys to the game. Like 50/50.

Can you imagine 50% of the RCA dome being Brady jerseys for the AFC CG? It was so bad back then that it dwarfs the Miami/Chicago attendance problems we have now.

MagicRat
02-14-2013, 10:29 PM
That game was the 11th greatest in Pacers history, at least up until the 93-94 team yearbook was published (although there is a total points typo). Also, apparently Peck was part of the fan base that helped run Chuck out of town on a rail.........
http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/chuckyearbook.jpg

ChicagoJ
02-14-2013, 10:33 PM
Bob Hill was a classic .500 coach and proved it elsewhere. Worth giving a shot to coach, but not on par with the title winning coaches.

There's a middle ground you're missing. You know I was going to go here:


<tbody>


1994-95

NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1995.html)
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/1995.html)
82
62
20
.756
21.0
1
15
9
6
.600



1995-96

NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1996.html)
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/1996.html)
82
59
23
.720
18.0
1
10
5
5
.500



</tbody>

Now everybody knows the difference. Those Spurs teams had a better roster. Bo Hill had a 0.500 roster with the Pacers and that's exactly what they got from him.

Larry Brown didn't take the same team to more success. He took one look at the roster and made a lot of changes.

RWB
02-15-2013, 08:46 AM
Game 3 and 4 of that series were the first time MSA really seemed to fill up, and as Jay mentions it had to do just as much with all the Larry Bird fans that wore Celtics jerseys to the game. Like 50/50.

Can you imagine 50% of the RCA dome being Brady jerseys for the AFC CG? It was so bad back then that it dwarfs the Miami/Chicago attendance problems we have now.

My memory must be going bad but I remember while the game started out with the usual Celtic crowd it ended completely a pro Pacer crowd including those Indy idiots wearing the nasty green. Specifically Chuck was interviewed after the game and kept gushing he couldn't believe how much Pacer support there was. Even said he and Reggie looked at each other to ask if they were in the right building meaning it was a Pacer home crowd.

Unclebuck
02-15-2013, 09:06 AM
They never should have traded Det, even though McKey was a great defender and they 100% never should have wasted their time trying to get a "name" PG...although there was a bit of that going on when they went after Jackson later, but in some ways he was trying to recover his name in LAC after "failing" in NYC.

Williams went on to set the NBA record for consecutive FTM in Minny, BTW. Then he got injured and his career was over.

Also, by far the greatest Pacers trade ever was sending Herb to Dallas for Detlef. Not young Herb either, but old Herb for a rising NBA star that was a key figure in the pre-drug implosion of the first great Mavericks team.



I completely disagree with you that they never should have traded Deltef. Detlef and Brown were feuding and not getting along, he had to be traded and McKey was perfect for what this team needed at that time. Pacers would not have been as good in '94 or '95 without the Det for McKey trade.

Pacers did have way too many offensive players who didn't defend in the early 90's, they were extremely soft. Rik, Det, Chuck, Reggie, and Michael Williams - that was a horrible defensive lineup. Adding Woody, McKey, Dale Davis all tough physical defenders changed the culture of the team and they became winners. No Brown wouldn't have won with the offensive 5-some I listed above - not at all.

RWB
02-15-2013, 09:11 AM
Also Det let it be known to Donnie he wouldn't mind going home to Washington (the state, not the Capitol). Worked out both ways in Brown wanted a trade and Walsh didn't like how Detlef was outspoken about leaving for the west coast.

Sollozzo
02-15-2013, 09:12 AM
Sorry Danman, but the Sonics W/L record begs to differ. Detlef was fine.

I think that Payton and Kemp were the main reasons for their impressive W/L records. They won 55 games the year before Detlef came. They were both extremely young players then. Sure they won 63 when they added Detlef, but I think the growing of Payton and Kemp was the main reason for that improvement.

Mo Tibbs
02-18-2013, 04:58 PM
This thread is awesome! Chuck was just before I remember watching the Pacers. I mean I did with my grandparents but I was too young to remember what was going on. I remember being told about the punts in Chicago. And it was awesome to hear about Reggie trash talking Pippen and then saying they had nobody besides Jordan. Where is that now!? The NBA NEEDS that now.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-19-2013, 01:16 PM
This thread is awesome!2nded, great thread!