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Eddie Gill
02-12-2013, 03:37 PM
Jalen Rose on the Grantland podcast talking about the 40 point playoff game, and his relationship with Larry Brown:



One of the best bulletin board situations I was a part of, and this was in an interesting dynamic, because Larry Brown was the coach of the Indiana Pacers and he basically ran our team into the ground his final year there, we did not make the playoffs because he knew he was going to Philladelphia.

Jacoby: What did he do to run you team into the ground?

Coaches are like the person controlling the chessboard and while there’s a king, all of the pieces are important in control of the chessboard to the dynamic of a roster. And a coach can massage it to the point where, you’re not getting the maximum out of everyone. He did that with the Knicks.

When we got a chance to play against him the next year, now granted, we were a team that didn’t make the playoffs. The next season we were playing in the ECF Game 7 versus Michael and the Bulls WITH BASICALLY THE SAME TEAM. So, that’s how you run a situation into the ground. So, when we got a chance to play against him in the playoffs, those next couple of seasons we used fuel to not only go against one of the best players in the league Allen Iverson, but you had the extra umph of wow, this is the coach who sabotaged our season.

>>Did you have a conversation before the game with the team?
We all had conversations about it. To the point where not only did we wanna beat Philly, we wanted to stick it to him.

One of my favorite games of my career, and this has only happened four or five times in NBA playoff history- Shaq and Kobe didn’t do it, Mike and Scotty didn’t do it in the playoffs, Durant and Westbrook haven’t done it in the playoffs, LBJ/Wade haven’t done it in the playoffs. And that’s having two players score 40 pts in the same game. And Reggie and I were fortunate enough to do it.
There were times in that game when we would literally take turns. I think me and Reggie were the only guys on our team to score double figures in that game. It was Mark Jackson who was the maestro of it, Larry Bird was the coach, Rick Carlisle was offensive coordinator. When you get two guys going, and you’ve got a floor general like Mark Jackson, who’s one of the all-time leading assist leaders ever to play the game, and you’ve got the extra motivation to not only beat Philly because you’re in the playoffs, but also to stick it to Larry Brown, that was something that meant a lot to me especially, because I was one of the people during that year when he was running the team into the ground that got 15 DNPs. I was a guy he brought into the office and said Jalen – we had just taken a trip to Europe and played Seattle and Gary Payton was playing at the time. I was playing point guard for the Pacers and we played them back-to-back games. And one of those games, I think it was Gary Payton, I think I had like 20 plus points, 10 plus assists – I was playing good basketball. I’m thinking that now this is gonna carry on to the rest of the season. We get back to Indiana after practice one day coach brown brings me into the office one day and says “Chris Webber and Juwan Howard – they’re trending up. Ray Jackson and Jimmy King – they’re trending down. I’m going to be the determining factor into which way you go.” And I looked at him and I said, “No you’re not. You can do whatever you have to do, but I’m still gonna be competitive in practice, I’m still gonna work on my game, and hopefully, it translates to opportunities.” And he didn’t play me in 15 games that year.

>>>And the next year you scored 40 in the playoffs?

Two season after that when he was in Philly. So, there was a time when we went and played against Detroit, my hometown. I had 80 people at the game. Now granted, I’m no rookie, this is my third year. I started in Denver the second half of my rookie season, I made the All-Rookie team, I played in the All-Rookie Game, I was no Tim Duncan as a rookie, but I showed a little bit of promise. My second year I was a starter - I think I had the assist record for the Nuggets. My next year we made the playoffs and got swept by the San Antonio Spurs. That summer is when I got traded.

So Larry, being the head coach, he had the pulse that, for some reason, I wasn’t on his like list. You know on Facebook how you can like somebody? He didn’t like me. And I didn’t do anything to actually feed into it. I would be honest with you and tell you, ‘Man, that day in practice I shouldn’t have said that’. It was from the beginning. He didn’t give me a chance to do anything I didn’t like. So we go to Europe, and I have this good game against Gary Payton and the Sonics with Shawn Kemp. I’m thinking that this is gonna translate into a good year for me and then we have that meeting and I’m like ‘Oh God’. One of the games early I was getting moderate minutes – maybe 10-12 per game – we go to Detroit, my hometown. This is my third trip to Detroit, I had played there once a year with Denver my first two years. Now I’m in the Eastern Conference, we’re gonna go to them twice a season. My first trip to Detroit, 80 fans in the stands that I bought tickets for. My uncle’s got a big sign for me, my mom’s sitting courtside, all my people are there. He didn’t play me for the first 3 quarters. He put me in during the fourth quarter and I had five straight points. I went 2-2 and Detroit called a timeout. During the timeout he took me out of the game. At first it was against Washington. He didn’t want me to go against Chris Webber and Juwan Howard who were the stars of that team, you know the media build-up was three of the Fab Five were about to play, ladadada. So going into that game, I think he played me like 8 minutes. And then the Detroit game happened soon after that. So, it was all bad that rest of the season. I was able to use that motivation as a player, work in practice, keep my attitude up, I had good teammates who still supported me, I had good vets around me, Reggie, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis. So when we played them in the playoffs, we did use that bulletin board material.

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 03:39 PM
we need link

Sollozzo
02-12-2013, 03:55 PM
Interesting story. Brown definitely seems like he is a guy who players grow tired of quickly. You learn a lot from him, but he wears you out in the process, both physically and mentally. In Reggie's book, he sounds like he respects Brown, but you can tell that Brown got on his nerves quite a bit. I'm a bit too young to have a clear memory of that season, but Brown must have done a pretty poor job for the team to not even make the playoffs. I realize that Smits missed 30 games and that Jackson was traded before the season, but there was too much talent on that team to completely whiff on the playoffs. Hopefully this topic elicits a good post from ChicagoJ about "the season we do not discuss".

I'm sure that the players did cartwheels when Bird was hired. Bird was the anti-Brown.

I forgot that Rose had to play for Brown in NY in 05-06. I bet he hated that.

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 04:06 PM
Coaching Rose was no day at the beach either. Whenever Brown was asked why Jalen wasn't playing Brown would always reply by asking who is he going to guard. That was a very legitimate question because Jalen often approached defense as though it were optional.

Smi

Eddie Gill
02-12-2013, 04:14 PM
we need link

I transcribed the text from the podcast, which can be found here: http://www.grantland.com/podcasts/_/sort/grantland-network

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 04:26 PM
We ABSOLUTELY need a "season we do not discuss" warning on this.

This just makes me want to scream.

immortality
02-12-2013, 04:28 PM
I transcribed the text from the podcast, which can be found here: http://www.grantland.com/podcasts/_/sort/grantland-network I listened to the podcast, as Rose's stories are always fun, but +1 for transcribing it.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 04:50 PM
Hopefully this topic elicits a good post from ChicagoJ about "the season we do not discuss".



Already replied before I saw this. For a bit of perspective .... my half-season package that year the Pacers went 3-19 (and one of the wins may have been the damn preseason game. Our package really got it bad...) In late March, there's nearly nobody at the game and somebody comes down to talk to me and Jay's_Wife@Aisle20 and said, "I've skipped a couple of games lately, but you're here every game. This has to have been hard." My response: "I'm learning to hate this team."

:laugh:

They were four games under 0.500.

Rik Smits missed thirty games. They were two games under 0.500 with him (25-27) and two games under 0.500 (14-16) without him.

Mark Jackson was brought back at the trading deadline. We were two games under 0.500 when he came back (also 25-27, but that's coincidence), and finished two games under 0.500 for the rest of the season (14-16)


Oh it keeps working.

Derrick McKey played 50 games (started 49). In those fifty games? Yep, 24-26. The other 32 games? 15-17.

Dale Davis played 80 games. Yep... 39-41 in the games he played and 0-2 in the games he missed.

Haywoode Workman mutilated his knee after the fourth game. Yep, you gessed it, 1-3 when when played and 38-40 over the rest of the season.

Any way you slice it, that team was just destined to be four games under 0.500.

The Vinnie Askew expiriment was a little bit worse... 19-24. Of course, his inability to throw an inbounds pass at crunch time in about four games in a row while Derrick was out contributed to that. How he stayed in that role for four games is a mystery.

At least Larry decided to set Eddie Johnson free from his Hell. And Denver did, too, allowing the revitalized Eddie to average 11 ppg as Houston's sixth man after languishing next to Jalen for a number of DNP-CD's.

Erick Dampier was probably the highlight of that season, as a rookie. He was at least two games over 0.500 in the 72 games he played (37-35), making us 2-8 in the other ten games.


I seriously could have filmed an NBA Commerical for "I hate this team."

:soundoff:

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 05:05 PM
Oh, this was fun.

NOW I'M JUST HONKED OFF!!

Where's that Larry Brown punching bag?

You know it was bad when Mayor Fred Hoiberg is happy to be quoted in the Indy Star at the end of the season about how the playes won't miss Brown.

Seriously... I NEED TO GO PUNCH SOMETHING NOW.

There's a reason we don't discuss this... MY BLOOD PRESSSURE!

Sollozzo
02-12-2013, 05:10 PM
Oh, this was fun.

NOW I'M JUST HONKED OFF!!

Where's that Larry Brown punching bag?

You know it was bad when Mayor Fred Hoiberg is happy to be quoted in the Indy Star at the end of the season about how the playes won't miss Brown.

Seriously... I NEED TO GO PUNCH SOMETHING NOW.

There's a reason we don't discuss this... MY BLOOD PRESSSURE!


The one game I saw in person that season was a March win against Dallas when Hoiberg scored what was then a career high of 21 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199703260IND.html

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 05:51 PM
This game was actually the highlight of the season, and one that I won't forget...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199703120IND.html

Not because Pacers-Hawks was a good rivalry at that point, because it was.

Rather, it was the halftime tribute to Roger Brown:

http://www.indystar.com/article/19970311/NEWS06/703110301/Pacers-great-Roger-Brown-given-an-emotional-goodbye
(http://www.indystar.com/article/19970311/NEWS06/703110301/Pacers-great-Roger-Brown-given-an-emotional-goodbye)
Small blurb here from the otherwise detested Sam Smith, just a few days before Roger's death...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1997-03-04/sports/9703040024_1_robinson-and-duncan-general-manager-gregg-popovich-tim-duncan/2


Nice gesture: The Spurs' Chuck Person was in Indianapolis recently with a $10,000 check for the fund for former Pacers great Roger Brown, who has terminal cancer. Person, who still maintains a home in Indianapolis, said: "I'm not doing this for self-gratification. I'm doing this to make people aware that sometimes great people are struck down before their time."

The Spurs were also in town on Saturday night of that weekend. Chuck had been back in Indy rehabbing his back from the airplane injury and was at this game walking with a cane. That had to be odd for him - because of Roger and being back at his house on Geist, but he had to be part of the Spurs team that day.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199703080IND.html I'm trying to remember... I think we were expecting a video tribute that night but it wasn't ready yet/ being saved for the service on the 11th and shown again on the 12th. They did put the spotlight on Rahjah's jersey and Chuck and Dale got huge ovations for their generosity to the Brown family.

Sollozzo
02-12-2013, 06:09 PM
This part of the article was touching:

Brown's pallbearers were ex-teammates Mel Daniels, George
McGinnis, Bob Netolicky and Hillman, along with former Pacer Chuck
Person and current Pacer Dale Davis. Person and Davis had been
particularly generous in donating money to help pay for Brown's
medical expenses.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 06:26 PM
Back to happier times, here's the box on the 40-40 game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200005060IND.html

The starting lineup combined for 84. Reggie with 40. Jalen with 40. Smits with 4. Jackson and DD both had gooseeggs on a combined 0-10.

However, Croshere was also in double digits with 11.

Derrick McKey was next at 7 points. 3-3 from the floor with 2 assists - one of his better games from that era, and probably a (you-know-what) to Brownie, too.

clownskull
02-12-2013, 06:28 PM
larry brown was a guy who knew his x's and o's
he also had a very, very short shelf life and players eventually wear out at least mentally from playing for him. i remember a line from danny manning when larry followed him to the clips and said something like 'it's time to get away from larry brown'
i remember seeing brown in the last half of the season when i could see the total look of disinterest on his face and there were people with signs pleading for him not to go. i couldn'y understand why though as he was more committed to doing it his way than winning anymore.
he would much rather get blown out than play guys he didn't like.
UB is correct that jalen wasn't always the easiest guy to deal with but brown must not have been either and it was very much time for him to go.

Sollozzo
02-12-2013, 06:35 PM
Coaching Rose was no day at the beach either. Whenever Brown was asked why Jalen wasn't playing Brown would always reply by asking who is he going to guard. That was a very legitimate question because Jalen often approached defense as though it were optional.

Smi

And then Bird was hired and Rose immediately flourished. Clearly Rose deserves some accountability, but it sounds like Brown was an *** to him from day one and didn't like him. The immediate rise of Rose under Bird shows that Brown wasn't doing something right. You can't handout 15 DNPs to the player you traded Mark Jackson for.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 06:52 PM
larry brown was a guy who knew his x's and o's
he also had a very, very short shelf life and players eventually wear out at least mentally from playing for him. i remember a line from danny manning when larry followed him to the clips and said something like 'it's time to get away from larry brown'
i remember seeing brown in the last half of the season when i could see the total look of disinterest on his face and there were people with signs pleading for him not to go. i couldn'y understand why though as he was more committed to doing it his way than winning anymore.
he would much rather get blown out than play guys he didn't like.
UB is correct that jalen wasn't always the easiest guy to deal with but brown must not have been either and it was very much time for him to go.

The whole reason Bird invented this silly three-year thing was a direct response (IMO, of course) to the fiasco of Larry Brown's fourth season with the Pacers.

Now... when Mark Jackson sailed consecutive passes to Rik Smits out of bounds at the end of Game #5 of the '96 playoffs, who knew just how badly the next season would turn out. The '96 team was the only one to beat the Bulls twice, and Reggie also made a heroic-if-it-had-worked return in that same Game #5 when Steve Smith was absolutely eating Ricky Pierce alive. 1997 was the anomally.

The team got younger, more versatile and athletic that offseason.

A lineup of Travis-Reggie-Jalen-Dale-Dampier actually would have been fine with me in 1996-97. Nothing else worked, but Brownie sure did everything to avoid the obvious. signing Vinnie Askew. Jerome Allen playing ahead of Jalen? Really, Larry, who the hell could Jerome Allen guard? Played Duane Ferrell ahead of Eddie Johnson AND/OR Rose. Yeah, that turned out well.

That season was down in the George Irvine/ Dick Versace/ Isiah Thomas levels of bad coaching. But we didn't like to admit that it was because Brownie was sabotaging the season himself. He was capable of better (unlike those three), but he refused to do so. I think he spent the entire season pouting that he couldn't pursue the UCLA job when Harrick was fired because he was under contract to the Pacers.

Bball
02-12-2013, 07:50 PM
I think Brown made such a tremendous difference in Pacer fortunes his first two years, and arguably for the core of the team's career as Pacers, that I will forgive him for his final season.

Hicks
02-12-2013, 08:11 PM
Coaching Rose was no day at the beach either. Whenever Brown was asked why Jalen wasn't playing Brown would always reply by asking who is he going to guard. That was a very legitimate question because Jalen often approached defense as though it were optional.

Smi

Was he really considered a PG when we traded for him? I remember him being a PG in 2000-2001, but I figured he was always seen as a SF/SG before that. But from the story about, that may not have been the case? And maybe that's why Brown felt he couldn't play him? (Because he wouldn't guard PGs very well).

Anthem
02-12-2013, 08:20 PM
The starting lineup combined for 84. Reggie with 40. Jalen with 40. Smits with 4. Jackson and DD both had gooseeggs on a combined 0-10.
Trade them!

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 09:15 PM
Was he really considered a PG when we traded for him? I remember him being a PG in 2000-2001, but I figured he was always seen as a SF/SG before that. But from the story about, that may not have been the case? And maybe that's why Brown felt he couldn't play him? (Because he wouldn't guard PGs very well).


No he was small forward for Brown, no way could he have played point for Brown. He was exceedingly hard on point guards

beast23
02-12-2013, 09:16 PM
Was he really considered a PG when we traded for him? I remember him being a PG in 2000-2001, but I figured he was always seen as a SF/SG before that. But from the story about, that may not have been the case? And maybe that's why Brown felt he couldn't play him? (Because he wouldn't guard PGs very well).
I think part of the problem is that Jalen considered himself to be a PG and always wanted to be the PG. Unfortunately, Jalen was a very ball dominant player and with all the capable scorers we had, we needed a pass-first PG, not someone who was going to look for his teammates opportunities less than his own.

But defensively, it didn't matter whether Jalen played PG, SG or SF, he was capable of playing excellent defense at all three. My biggest gripe with Jalen is that he only applied himself defensively when the spirit moved him. Unfortunately, Jalen was apparently not a very spiritual man.

imawhat
02-12-2013, 09:56 PM
We ABSOLUTELY need a "season we do not discuss" warning on this.

This just makes me want to scream.

I have to ask. What made you want to scream?

I watched all the games and analyzed a bit, but I wasn't following the team like I am now. I remember thinking Jalen should've been on the floor and was baffled at why he wasn't. But that's about where it stops for me.

Do you think Brown was sabotaging the team? Was it just pure underachievement? Jalen's story is a revelation for me.

Downtown Bang!
02-12-2013, 10:10 PM
Now... when Mark Jackson sailed consecutive passes to Rik Smits out of bounds at the end of Game #5 of the '96 playoffs, who knew just how badly the next season would turn out. The '96 team was the only one to beat the Bulls twice, and Reggie also made a heroic-if-it-had-worked return in that same Game #5 when Steve Smith was absolutely eating Ricky Pierce alive. 1997 was the anomally.



Don't forget about Matt Bullard hitting late threes every time the Pacers looked like they might pull ahead or Christian Laetner choosing that game to actually battle the Pacer front court and collect a mess of rebounds.

So excited when I landed a couple of great tickets for that game and the place was electric with Reg's return. Little did I know the heartbreak and disappointment that would follow.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 11:01 PM
Don't forget about Matt Bullard hitting late threes every time the Pacers looked like they might pull ahead or Christian Laetner choosing that game to actually battle the Pacer front court and collect a mess of rebounds.

So excited when I landed a couple of great tickets for that game and the place was electric with Reg's return. Little did I know the heartbreak and disappointment that would follow.

Yeah, that's one of the two or three worst times I've ever felt leaving the arena. That game was ---right there---. And it slipped right out of Smit's reach.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 11:06 PM
Do you think Brown was sabotaging the team? Was it just pure underachievement? Jalen's story is a revelation for me.

Yes. Not really. And not really.

Injuries were clearly a factor. Smits was completing a two year run of brilliance in the low post at the end of that Atlanta series. Then a very injured season, and then when Bird came around he was reinvented as a 7'4" SF. Derrick McKey was never the same either. (although a portion of this board will argue that he was never any good in the first place...)

Larry Brown disrupted that season just about as bad as Ron Artest did in November of 2004. Problem was, Larry spread the damage over the entire season. And he kept his cute little game of talking about "playing the right way" to the media while the players were rolling their eyes. Again, even Mr. Squeaky Clean Milk Drinker Fred Hoiberg himself was outspoken, and on the record, with how much the players were looking forward to moving on without Brownie.

travmil
02-12-2013, 11:20 PM
Once again I say, I would pay money to listen to Jalen talk about basketball. Every time he tells a story from his playing days I'm absolutely captivated. I'm not kidding. I'm the same way with Bird. I bet I've listened to that BS Report with Simmons and Bird 50 times and I'll listen to this that many times too.

Peck
02-13-2013, 01:03 AM
I was an absolute born again die hard Larry Brown believer. In fact until he came to the Indiana Pacers my opinion on coaching in the NBA was that it didn't matter. It was a players league and whoever was the coach was really more just for show.

Larry Brown changed my entire outlook on that and frankly the game of basketball in general. Playing the right way was a slogan to be certain but in listening to Reggie and other players who have played for him it went well beyond that it was driven everyday in them at practice and he held every single player accountable. In fact one of the great lines of Reggie Miller's book "I love being the enemy" was a part he wrote "Larry Brown called me a ***** today". If you weren't giving what Larry thought you could or should give then he would be in your ear no matter who you were.

Jay has his memory's of that season & I won't dispute them but what he is neglecting to remind everybody of is the now infamous Popeye speech from Derrick McKey that did as much damage if not more damage to the team that year as almost anything.

Now I'm not by any measure saying that Brown was not at fault or even mostly at fault for that season (I don't really believe it myself) but when Jalen say's they went back the next year with the exact same team he is forgetting that for the most part of that season Rik Smits was out and he was back the following season.

In fact I always go so far as to say that I believe that Larry Browns tenure was so important to our franchise that his teachings lasted for the next 3-4 seasons. Larry Bird did not turn Rik Smits into an effective player, Larry Brown did. In fact it was Brown that told all of us we needed to climb off of Smits back and understand that he wasn't going to be a 10-12 rpg player but he could be a mid range weapon. It worked.

Now as time has gone on and I've reviewed his tenures at every team he has been with since he left here I have determined that he is a coaching Diva and frankly has become a sad caricature of himself. His X's & O's are solid but ultimately coaching is more than that.

That is why I am now a Frank Vogel devotee. I truly believe that we have a special coach on our hands even if at times his rotations make me want to bite nails.

As to Jalen, well all I can say is that yes he did score 40 points that day, thanks to Reggie Miller. Reggie stopped shooting and they did everything in their power to make certain that he scored his 40th point that day and when he was at the free throw line shooting his last free throws the noise echoing in his ear has haunted him to this day. Instead of cheering him hitting 40 the crowd bursts into a chant of REGGIE REGGIE REGGIE. He later complained to WTHR in the locker room that it was the biggest game of his life and all the crowd wanted to do was cheer for someone else. Bitter is the pill to swallow living in the shadow.

As to Uncle Buck's quote about Jalen and Larry Brown, that was to me. I was sitting right behind the Pacers bench and Jalen had already gotten a few DNP's that season and I yelled to Larry "Play Jalen" and he turned right around and looked at me and said "who's he going to guard". Little did I know that Larry actually knew what he was talking about. As Beast said Jalen could guard any of three positions when he wanted to, but his dedication to defense was as rare as Haley's comet.

Again Brown was no peach but you should go listen to other story's by Jalen, in particular I invite you to listen to his story about a fight between player Carter & Coach Mitchell and you can see that while Jalen is entertaining he would be a person who you would probably want to kill in a locker room.

Oh also they might ask him sometime how it went for him when the demand was either Jalen Rose or Jermaine O'Neal and who won out there. While they are there they might as well ask him how he enjoyed his all star games.

Yea as you can tell I really soured on Jalen.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 01:16 AM
Oh don't get me wrong. I loved Brown's first three seasons. But to me he undid all of his good works in the fourth season. Bo Hill was better than a 39-43 coach, with a less talented roster. Brownie left them in worse shape than when he started.

Eddie Gill
02-13-2013, 01:27 AM
I can't comment on the season that apparently can't be mentioned (I was only 8 at the time), but I did have quite a few encounters with Larry Brown. My mom worked in an office across the street from MSA (I spent a lot of time there after school and weekends), and we'd frequently see him in the market. He was always VERY friendly, always called us by name, and always chatted us up. To the point where, in retrospect, I almost wonder if Larry Brown was hitting on my mom. Take it for whatever its worth.

imawhat
02-13-2013, 01:30 AM
Derrick McKey Popeye speech? Please go on.

Brad8888
02-13-2013, 02:09 AM
Sounds like an awful lot of asshurtions being made by a guy who believed he should run the show, and who really needs the attention to remain a viable TV personality at this point in his life.

I was happy that we turned Jalen and Travis into Brad Miller, Artest, and filler, even back at the time of the trade. It was a huge upgrade in talent and killer instinct, and grit and hustle over guys who preferred to operate outside the team concept. Despite everything that ended up happening later (refusing to pay Brad and getting Scot "I get paid millions of dollars to suck" Pollard, and the entire bad Ron-Ron), I still like the trade.

Peck
02-13-2013, 03:08 AM
Derrick McKey Popeye speech? Please go on.

To understand the Popeye speech you must first understand how significant our injury problem was that season. Rik Smits who was our starting center missed a significant chunk of the season, Haywood Workman who was scheduled to be our starting point guard shredded his knee and only played 4 games. This left Eric Dampier a rookie and Travis Best a seldom used second year point guard starting for a large chunk of games.

Needless to say early in the season we were having trouble scoring because basically Reggie Miller was our only true offensive threat in the starting unit.

Larry Brown went to both Derrick McKey & Dale Davis and asked each of them to step outside of their normal game and attempt to provide more offense.

Now this is where people will have some disagreement with Larry Brown but the reason we know he did this? Simple he told the local press that he went to them. He told them this during a non game day where they were having either a shoot around or practice. Back in the day WTHR actually did a pretty good job of covering the Pacers and when the players were available for comment they went to both Dale & Derrick to ask each of them about this and how they intended to help the team.

The first interview they showed was Dale and somewhere between 100 "you know" & 50 "uh's" we got the message that Dale would do whatever was asked of him and had already been working with the assistants on his offensive game.

Then they went to McKey. It's been so long now I can not tell you word for word what he said but the gist of it was that he was the player he was and he couldn't be anything else and he would not be changing his game. He ended the interview by saying "I am what I am". Forevermore to be known as the Popeye speech because of how very similar it is to Popeye's "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam".

Like I said above I don't doubt that the season was shot by Brown but when you look at the circumstances that team was going to struggle no matter what. BTW, McKey as he was want to do, came to camp out of shape and he ended up missing as many games as Rik did that season.

Sadly the Dale Davis as an offensive weapon experiment ended with the same results that General Custer met with at Little Big Horn, but God love him he tried.

Heisenberg
02-13-2013, 03:13 AM
I can't comment on the season that apparently can't be mentioned (I was only 8 at the time), but I did have quite a few encounters with Larry Brown. My mom worked in an office across the street from MSA (I spent a lot of time there after school and weekends), and we'd frequently see him in the market. He was always VERY friendly, always called us by name, and always chatted us up. To the point where, in retrospect, I almost wonder if Larry Brown was hitting on my mom. Take it for whatever its worth.
From what I understand of Brown, yes, he was hitting on your mom.

Mr_Smith
02-13-2013, 07:41 AM
Oh the infamous 96-97 season, I was junior in high school and remember that season vividly....such a horror show

Ragnar
02-13-2013, 10:11 AM
I drank a LOT that year

Unclebuck
02-13-2013, 10:20 AM
Oh don't get me wrong. I loved Brown's first three seasons. But to me he undid all of his good works in the fourth season. Bo Hill was better than a 39-43 coach, with a less talented roster. Brownie left them in worse shape than when he started.

If Brown left them in worse shape than when he started then how come the team won 58 games and was what many beliueve was the best Pacers team in history in the year after Brown left.

I understand what you are suggesting, but I just don't agree. In fact the team probably wanted to show Brown they were still good and that helped in 1998.

Brown was the best coach I have ever watched up close.

Hicks
02-13-2013, 10:29 AM
Larry Bird, Rick Carlisle, and Dick Harter might have had something to do with it.....

Seems like Larry Brown gets more credit for what he did with that roster than the above three typically get.

Unclebuck
02-13-2013, 10:34 AM
BTW, McKey as he was want to do, came to camp out of shape and he ended up missing as many games as Rik did that season.



McKey out of shape? I don't recall that being the case. I do recall it coming out a few years later that Derrick had one leg longer than the otrher and that was the primary reason he started having so many injuries as he did. Was he in the best shape, I don't know, but he certainly never gained any weight. His body wasn't made to be a longterm NBA player.


I will stick by more assertion that Mckey was the Pacers MVP in 1994 and 1995. (Phile jackson said the same thing) Many will disucss him being a reluctant scorer, OK, fine, but he was a great passer, extremly smart, knew how to run any offense that the coach wanted. I just never thought he was as talented of a scorer as many seemed to.

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale Davis, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen. But in many ways I think Mckey was probably the best. He was the best combination of one-on-one and team defender I have ever seen - maybe only Scottie Pippen was better. Artest was great one-on-one but his team defense was inconsistant.

I always said that Mckey guarded 1 and a half players and when Rose was on the floor mcKey guarded two players. Mckey guarded his own man extrmely well, and yet was a great team defender and usually had to help on Jalen's man a lot.

Game 5 against the Bucks in 2000, McKey was playing on one leg, but his defense in that fourth quarter was amazing. I went back and re-watched the 4th quarter some years later and I focused just on Mckey's defense. He had to help so often pon Jalen's man, and yet Derrick had 7 deflections - 3 turned into steals, although he didn't get credit because his delfeciton went to someone else.

Coopdog23
02-13-2013, 10:37 AM
McKey out of shape? I don't recall that being the case. I do recall it coming out a few years later that Derrick had one leg longer than the otrher and that was the primary reason he started having so many injuries as he did. Was he in the best shape, I don't know, but he certainly never gained any weight. His body wasn't made to be a longterm NBA player.


I will stick by more assertion that Mckey was the Pacers MVP in 1994 and 1995. (Phile jackson said the same thing) Many will disucss him being a reluctant scorer, OK, fine, but he was a great passer, extremly smart, knew how to run any offense that the coach wanted. I just never thought he was as talented of a scorer as many seemed to.

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale David, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen. But in many ways I think Mckey was probably the best. He was the best combination of one-on-one and team defender I have ever seen - maybe only Scottie Pippen was better. Artest was great one-on-one but his team defense was inconsistant.

I always said that Mckey guarded 1 and a half players and when Rose was on the floor mcKey guarded two players. Mckey guarded his own man extrmely well, and yet was a great team defender and usually had to help on Jalen's man a lot.

Game 5 against the Bucks in 2000, McKey was playing on one leg, but his defense in that fourth quarter was amazing. I went back and re-watched the 4th quarter some years later and I focused just on Mckey's defense. He had to help so often pon Jalen's man, and yet Derrick had 7 deflections - 3 turned into steals, although he didn't get credit because his delfeciton went to someone else.

He was just a little slow compared to other players he guarded

Drewtone
02-13-2013, 11:08 AM
Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale David, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen.

Peck!!! Peck!!!! Blaspheme! That was on purpose!

I will say this about Brown/Rose... as an IU guy during the Fab 5 era, I loathed Jalen coming out and was indifferent at best with the idea of him on our team. However, I do recall vividly that the season-long raw deal he got from Coach turned me (and a number of my friends who had felt the same way) into big supporters of Jalen. Over the years, I drifted back to indifference.

Sollozzo
02-13-2013, 11:15 AM
The team never makes the Finals without the rise of Jalen. Of course you can say they don't make it without Reggie or Dale either, but Reggie and Dale were basically the same players that they had been in previous years. It was the rapid emergence of Jalen as a legit scoring threat alongside Reggie that propelled the team into the Finals. Shaq had Kobe. Jordan had Pip. But prior to 2000, Reggie really never had a guy alongside him who could be counted out for 20 PPG in a playoff series, with the exception of Smits in 1995 (torched Ewing). If Reggie was cold in a playoff game, then there really wasn't anyone else who could step up and pour in 20 points until Jalen grew.

beast23
02-13-2013, 11:26 AM
I drank a LOT that year
Good to see you back.

But from what I recall, didn't you drink a lot EVERY day? Lol

Wasn't your expression after a lot of games something like "this was not the game to start my sobriety?"

Brad8888
02-13-2013, 12:08 PM
From what I understand of Brown, yes, he was hitting on your mom.

His moves may not have been the best, but he DID play the game the right way, didn't he???

And, after all, the man probably wasn't dead if ya know what I mean.

He must have thought she was fly, or phat, or whatever was the hip lingo the youngsters used back in the day...

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 12:52 PM
Brown was the best coach I have ever watched up close.

With two obvious exceptions in different venues - Bob Knight and Bill Cowher - I agree with this. Which is why what he did during that last season was so infuriating.

= = = = = = = = = = = =

The roster was better, but the team was in shambles, confidence destroyed, from the outside it seemed to have two camps - the vets we loved but were losing their command of the Eastern Conference and the young guns that Brown refused to invest in. And Dale Davis probably could be put in either of those two camps.

The roster was good, sure. And Bird did the exact right thing by writing "58" (or was it "56" - either way it was quite bold for a 39-win team in disarray) on the chalkboard and calmly restoring their confidence. Bird knows basketball, and he knows basketball players. I still don't think any other coach could've gotten them back to the ECFs so quickly, and I was not a big fan of Larry Bird. But you can't argue with his results.

And the roster improved, too. Mullin was a huge upgrade over anything you want to desribe that trade to be. Dampier and Ferrell. Hell yeah. Moving McKey to the bench. Hell yeah. Croshere didn't do much as a rookie with a broken hand but played a key role in the next few seasons. Jalen was reclaimed from the dead and was a budding star, and they had Mark Jackson for a full season. The coach wasn't an upgrade, just a much needed change and a positive voice instead of the one that had been beating them down while propping himself up.

Peck
02-13-2013, 01:08 PM
McKey out of shape? I don't recall that being the case. I do recall it coming out a few years later that Derrick had one leg longer than the otrher and that was the primary reason he started having so many injuries as he did. Was he in the best shape, I don't know, but he certainly never gained any weight. His body wasn't made to be a longterm NBA player.


I will stick by more assertion that Mckey was the Pacers MVP in 1994 and 1995. (Phile jackson said the same thing) Many will disucss him being a reluctant scorer, OK, fine, but he was a great passer, extremly smart, knew how to run any offense that the coach wanted. I just never thought he was as talented of a scorer as many seemed to.

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale Davis, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen. But in many ways I think Mckey was probably the best. He was the best combination of one-on-one and team defender I have ever seen - maybe only Scottie Pippen was better. Artest was great one-on-one but his team defense was inconsistant.

I always said that Mckey guarded 1 and a half players and when Rose was on the floor mcKey guarded two players. Mckey guarded his own man extrmely well, and yet was a great team defender and usually had to help on Jalen's man a lot.

Game 5 against the Bucks in 2000, McKey was playing on one leg, but his defense in that fourth quarter was amazing. I went back and re-watched the 4th quarter some years later and I focused just on Mckey's defense. He had to help so often pon Jalen's man, and yet Derrick had 7 deflections - 3 turned into steals, although he didn't get credit because his delfeciton went to someone else.

Dude, c'mon...

McKey was routinely out of shape when he would report for camp. No he didn't look like Oliver Miller but he wasn't in basketball shape.

Unclebuck
02-13-2013, 01:38 PM
Dude, c'mon...

McKey was routinely out of shape when he would report for camp. No he didn't look like Oliver Miller but he wasn't in basketball shape.


I can't really argue with you, except to say I don't remember that. Would you say he just wasn't in basktball shape? or that he wasn't in shape at all. He always did strike me as a guy who probably didn't work on his game a lot in the summer. Or would he have gotten worse time than Harirson in Jack Ramsey first day of training camp long distance run. I want to say it was 5 miles but it couldn't have been that. Was it 2 or 3?

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 03:10 PM
Dude, c'mon...

McKey was routinely out of shape when he would report for camp. No he didn't look like Oliver Miller but he wasn't in basketball shape.

Agree completely. How many seasons started with him on the IR with a pulled hamstring? Most of them.

I liked Derrick. But he was a slooooowwww starter just about every year.

Unclebuck
02-13-2013, 03:14 PM
I guess I blocked it out of my mind. He was injured the year we got him. I don't remember his second year here (his first full season) but after that he was injured off and on every year.

I decided to look up how many games he played each year of his career

'88 - 82 games
'89 - 82 games
'90 - 80 games
'91 - 73 games
'92 - 52 games
'93 - 77 games
'94 - 76 games
'95 - 81 games
'96 - 75 games
'97 - 50 games
'98 - 57 games
'99 - 13 games
'00 - 32 games
'01 - 66 games
'02 - 41 games

He had 6 seasons were he averaged between 33 minutes and 35 minutes per game. The most he ever averaged per game was 3.46 - his second season with the pacers '95.

Career 48.6% shooter. 31.6% three point shooter. Highest points per game average was his second season at 15.9. He averaged 13.3 for us in his second season here.

SMosley21
02-13-2013, 06:56 PM
I love Jalen. Always have, always will.

I also was always a huge fan of Heavy D. Not until this thread have I seen so many people speak ill of him. I was a kid (born in 83) for most of Derrick's time with us, but I only have fond memories of his game. He was the player that made me appreciate defense at an early age.

Downtown Bang!
02-13-2013, 08:42 PM
McKey out of shape? I don't recall that being the case. I do recall it coming out a few years later that Derrick had one leg longer than the otrher and that was the primary reason he started having so many injuries as he did. Was he in the best shape, I don't know, but he certainly never gained any weight. His body wasn't made to be a longterm NBA player.


I will stick by more assertion that Mckey was the Pacers MVP in 1994 and 1995. (Phile jackson said the same thing) Many will disucss him being a reluctant scorer, OK, fine, but he was a great passer, extremly smart, knew how to run any offense that the coach wanted. I just never thought he was as talented of a scorer as many seemed to.

Defense is where he earned his keep though. The best defenders ever to wear an NBA Pacers uniform in no particular order, Dale Davis, Artest, McKey, Paul George is or will be among those top three. I would say those 4 are the best I have seen. But in many ways I think Mckey was probably the best. He was the best combination of one-on-one and team defender I have ever seen - maybe only Scottie Pippen was better. Artest was great one-on-one but his team defense was inconsistant.

I always said that Mckey guarded 1 and a half players and when Rose was on the floor mcKey guarded two players. Mckey guarded his own man extrmely well, and yet was a great team defender and usually had to help on Jalen's man a lot.

Game 5 against the Bucks in 2000, McKey was playing on one leg, but his defense in that fourth quarter was amazing. I went back and re-watched the 4th quarter some years later and I focused just on Mckey's defense. He had to help so often pon Jalen's man, and yet Derrick had 7 deflections - 3 turned into steals, although he didn't get credit because his delfeciton went to someone else.

Mckey was the single most important player acquisition in the 90's. Most fans will say Mark Jackson or Jalen Rose but even after McKey was having serious injury issues he was the guy helping close games 3, 4 & 6 against the Bulls in 98 while those two were on the bench because they couldn't defend anyone or be trusted to get the ball into the front court when on offense.

We never make the ECF if that trade isn't made and Schrempf stays in Indy.

I will also forever fondly remember McKey handing Pippen the ball in the final seconds of game 4 of the 98 ECF and asking him if he delivered on Sundays.

ChicagoJ
02-13-2013, 10:51 PM
Mckey was the single most important player acquisition in the 90's. Most fans will say Mark Jackson or Jalen Rose but even after McKey was having serious injury issues he was the guy helping close games 3, 4 & 6 against the Bulls in 98 while those two were on the bench because they couldn't defend anyone or be trusted to get the ball into the front court when on offense.

We never make the ECF if that trade isn't made and Schrempf stays in Indy.

I will also forever fondly remember McKey handing Pippen the ball in the final seconds of game 4 of the 98 ECF and asking him if he delivered on Sundays.

And we're blown out in the final minutes of Game #7 vs. the Knicks in '94 if McKey doesn't hit back-to-back 3FGA's.

I continue to wonder if there is something more to the Popeye speech. I recall a guy that had no interest in individual accolades, only in doing what his coach wanted. Now, I've never taken Larry Brown's statements to the press to be the actual truth. I believe everything he said publicly had an agenda to it, and whatever he said to the players privately remained private.

Which is why I just disagree with most of the vilifying of players if we don't know exactly what the coach is asking them to do.

We also like to pretend that we know where every player is supposed to be defensively. We don't know, of course. And I suspect we often blame somebody for being out of position when they were already covering for somebody else first.

imawhat
02-13-2013, 11:32 PM
Larry Brown was interviewed on NBA TV last summer. People were talking about his coaching career, and the topic of players came up. Larry said "I've coached some great players in my career" and went off to name several. There were two Pacers he mentioned. The first was Reggie, and the second was not Smits, not Dale, and not Jax. It was McKey.

Ragnar
02-14-2013, 10:47 AM
Good to see you back.

But from what I recall, didn't you drink a lot EVERY day? Lol

Wasn't your expression after a lot of games something like "this was not the game to start my sobriety?"


hmmm that sounds like something I would have said but I cant remember, probably because of the drinking!

BPump33
02-14-2013, 11:30 AM
McKey (as he often is) was court side at the game last night. No one else noticed him until halftime and then he was surrounded. Several people around us were saying, "Who's that?" Kind of made me sad.

Peck
02-14-2013, 01:10 PM
Little known fact.

I was a huge Derrick McKey fan until the popeye speech and then his continually showing up to camp out of shape and the ever increasing regularity of his missed games due to strains. But to be clear it was the Popeye speech that did it for me.

Also I will agree that the most important player transaction was the one that brought McKey to the Pacers & I liked Schremph a lot.

BillS
02-14-2013, 02:21 PM
Little known fact.

I was a huge Derrick McKey fan until the popeye speech and then his continually showing up to camp out of shape and the ever increasing regularity of his missed games due to strains. But to be clear it was the Popeye speech that did it for me.

Also I will agree that the most important player transaction was the one that brought McKey to the Pacers & I liked Schremph a lot.

It should be remembered, however, that once he "did it", it took a certain coach almost 3 years to take over as ruler of Peck's own private Hell.

Lesson, of course, is, "Don't pi$$ Peck off."