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View Full Version : Odd Thoughts: Misery vs the Nets



Peck
02-12-2013, 01:59 AM
I look at it like this, we were lucky to make it as close as it was. We just looked lethargic and for lack of a better term uninterested during the first half of this game. If it wasnít for Jeff Pendegraph running wild in the first half I think we might have been down by 10 at the half, but as it was he totally shell shocked both the Nets and the Pacers.

Look weíre not about making excuses but honestly I wonder if fatigue isnít catching up a little bit here? We have played a LOT over the past couple of weeks, now if you want to be a championship team you have to overcome that but I wonder if some of that didnít come into play.

Also letís be honest here the Nets do match up pretty well to us and right now they actually have both the size and physicality to cause us disruption. Paul George had a bad night, some of that was bad shooting but most of it was because Gerald Wallace is one hell of a defender who would not allow Paul to just go wherever he wanted. Since David West basically couldnít play (and should not have played) that meant that Reggie Evans could do his thing and not be forced out of the game due to lack of defense. Brooke Lopez just destroyed Roy Hibbert or more to the point on the offensive end Brooke Lopez destroyed Roy Hibbert on the defensive end Roy Hibbert destroyed Roy Hibbert. Lance did good but in the end just isnít long enough to bother Joe Johnson and well George Hill did what he could but at the end of the day we just had another bad game.

I understand that Paul fouled out of the game but why the last two games (which of course have both ended in losses) Frank has chosen to stick D.J. Augustine in the game is beyond me. Why do we have Sam Young on the roster then? I mean poor George Hill all 6í2Ē of him had to guard Joe Johnson 6í8Ē in the post for the last shot in regulation. Did anybody not think this was going to end up in score for Joe?

SighÖ. Well at least the Bulls won so they didnít gain anything on us.

On another bright note, if Danny does come back on Wednesday then at the very least we wonít have to hear anyone complaining about him ruining a winning streak or team chemistry if we do lose (which we better not). Itís always good to look for the good right? Right?

Tonight were just going to hit some bulletpoints because I donít really even feel like talking about this game much.

ē This had to be one of the worst attended games of the year. Honestly it did surprise me a little because I thought Brooklyn might be more of a draw than they are I guess. But yea 11,672 is very pathetic. On the bright side if nobody saw it then they canít hold it against us.
ē Iím only going to talk about Roy briefly because I donít want to go overboard but Iíll just say it. For whatever good he did you on defense tonight he more than countered that with his putrid offense production. Iíll state this very clearly, Roy Hibbert hurt the Indiana Pacers when he was on the floor tonight. You can disagree all you like & I am not a Roy basher and acknowledge all of the good he does on defense all year, but not tonight.
ē Our offense was beyond stagnate and stale tonight which is largely due to the defense of the Nets wing players but we settled for bad shots tonight.
ē What little crowd there was on hand really tried valiantly to get the team going in the end of the 4th but it was all for naught.
ē Gerald Green may be the single dumbest player Iíve ever seen. One pump fake almost sent him to the moon to block a shot that wasnít even there. BTW, I donít just mean from tonightís game. His body of work from this season is pretty rare in how many bonehead plays he makes. Oh well we will always have the dunk vs. the Cavs.
ē Speaking of which if you werenít there and judging by the attendance you werenít, in the layup line tonight a dunk contest broke out between Green, Young, George and believe it or not both Hansbrough. Believe it or not Young probably won that dunk off. Although in fairness to Green had he hit a bounce the ball catch it put it between the legs and behind the back dunk it would have been epic but it bounced off.
ē Look I like Reggie Evans and am always impressed when I see a pure rebounder at work, but if David West would have had his normal game then he wouldnít have even been in there for all of those boards because he canít guard him. But fortunately for him West was blind tonight. Itís a lot easier to grab rebounds when you are not even slightly involved on the offensive end and you cheat off of your man on defense. West hits his normal shots then Evans doesnít have the impact that he did.
ē You know I look at Mahinmi stats and it seems okay but I donít know he just didnít seem to have the impact on the game that I would like for him to have. Not sure why I didnít think he had a great game but I didnít.
ē We shot a total of 18 free throws tonight; the Nets actually converted 23 free throw shots. Just another sign to me that we were settling for jumperís way to often.

Well if ever there was a time Danny needs to make a comeback this is it. He doesnít solve all of our problems but in a game like tonight I think he would have solved a lot of them.

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King Tuts Tomb
02-12-2013, 02:08 AM
ē Gerald Green may be the single dumbest player Iíve ever seen.


I've heard this comment, from different people, at least 10 times this season. I almost take pride in it at this point. A lot of teams win championships, but not everyone can sign the dumbest player of all time to a long term deal.

AesopRockOn
02-12-2013, 02:13 AM
This loss goes to Vogel. From going small at the end of the game on defense. To playing David "One-Eyed" West in the second half. To wasting Pendergraph's Disney movie-esque increase in skill. To looking as lethargic as most of the players, especially compared to PJ Carlisimo, who was screaming like the Internet when Chris Brown is mentioned. He was neither flexible nor assertive. Coaching performance not recommended.

pathil275
02-12-2013, 02:58 AM
It is starting to get scary how we fare against potential Eastern Conference playoff teams. I think we are 0-2 against Brooklyn, 1-2 vs. Atlanta, 1-2 vs. Milwaukee, 1-1 vs. New York, 0-1 vs Boston. These are all possible opponents in the first (two) rounds. (I do know that we are 2-0 vs. Miami and Chicago)

Lord Helmet
02-12-2013, 02:59 AM
Vogel probably tried to not let West back in the game, but West is too big of a hardass to not come back in. The only way he isn't coming back is if he can't walk.

Bball
02-12-2013, 03:11 AM
As someone that's had a scratched eyeball more than once in my life... How was it treated during the time he was out? Closed and pressure might've went a long way towards it being better in the 2nd half. ...if it could get better...

And I don't know how he played with it as it was... 'cause until it starts feeling better an eye injury can really suck. You could clearly see it bothering him.

skyfire
02-12-2013, 03:53 AM
Was Sam Young hurt/sick tonight? Surely Frank could have atleast gone offense/defense subs down the stretch. There was no way that Hill should have been defending Joe Johnson on that play.

I saw complaints on twitter about the two foul calls on what Pacers fans saw as jump balls, they were both borderline, but PG has got to have better game awareness than to foul out there. That is the play of a young guy who is still learning in the league.

McKeyFan
02-12-2013, 05:46 AM
I guess it was a Fung Shwe thing or something, because Augustine's defense, though usually terrible, wasn't all that bad on Taylor when he hit those two circus shots that basically caused us the game.

Johanvil
02-12-2013, 06:19 AM
• I’m only going to talk about Roy briefly because I don’t want to go overboard but I’ll just say it. For whatever good he did you on defense tonight he more than countered that with his putrid offense production. I’ll state this very clearly, Roy Hibbert hurt the Indiana Pacers when he was on the floor tonight. You can disagree all you like & I am not a Roy basher and acknowledge all of the good he does on defense all year, but not tonight.


But but but he only averages 2.8 points less than last season. He can't be that bad, right....? *smh*
Anyway, it's not just him who was really bad last night. Paul and West, for different reasons each, gave you a combined of 12 points. Don't look very far from that as it was probably the main reason we lost.
Really bad performance and result. 2 home losses that are gonna hurt us.


I guess it was a Fung Shwe thing or something, because Augustine's defense, though usually terrible, wasn't all that bad on Taylor when he hit those two circus shots that basically caused us the game.

Couldn't believe it at the time. Was 5 A.M. in the morning here and was screaming (heavy liquor consumption before helped that tbh). Dude was like "let's just get rid of the ball before the clock runs out" in the first shot and the other one was no less crazy.

King Tuts Tomb
02-12-2013, 07:43 AM
I guess it was a Fung Shwe thing or something, because Augustine's defense, though usually terrible, wasn't all that bad on Taylor when he hit those two circus shots that basically caused us the game.

I thought the same thing while watching the game. Sometime this season Orlando Johnson or somebody else from the bench will hit two crazy circus shots that win us a game and a fan of the other team will say "I can't believe Orlando Johnson hit some crazy shots to beat us."

I didn't really mind losing this game. We put ourselves in a good position and couldn't quite put it away. What worries me is blowouts. The Pacers have only been really beaten down 3 times (Boston, Orlando, Portland) in the last two months. Every other loss has been decided in the fourth quarter by a pretty small margin, more than a few of those on some pretty crazy flukes.

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 08:04 AM
Yes Sam Young was unavailable. I forget why - either sick or injured.

While I know there have been plenty of games this season where the Pacers really need Granger, this game was the first game were it was that obvious. Sure offensively, but even more defensively. Perhaps the biggest keys to the game late and in OT: with Paul George fouled out, the Pacers had to defend Joe Johnson with George Hill and it seemed as though either JJ scored or was the Pacers were forced to double team and leave shooters wide open. Granger could have guarded JJ and the pacers could have played their normal defense.

I thought the Pacers bench played well - they brought the energy especially in the second quarter that erased a 10 point deficit.

disappointing game, but nothing that has me worried long term. No red flags

Ace E.Anderson
02-12-2013, 08:50 AM
I thought the same thing while watching the game. Sometime this season Orlando Johnson or somebody else from the bench will hit two crazy circus shots that win us a game and a fan of the other team will say "I can't believe Orlando Johnson hit some crazy shots to beat us."

I didn't really mind losing this game. We put ourselves in a good position and couldn't quite put it away. What worries me is blowouts. The Pacers have only been really beaten down 3 times (Boston, Orlando, Portland) in the last two months. Every other loss has been decided in the fourth quarter by a pretty small margin, more than a few of those on some pretty crazy flukes.

As a playoff team, aren't the close ones the ones that you want to win? More often than not, in the playoffs--the games are extremely close. Losing all these close games against either short-manned teams, or less talented teams is a bad thing to me.

xIndyFan
02-12-2013, 09:58 AM
I guess it was a Fung Shwe thing or something, because Augustine's defense, though usually terrible, wasn't all that bad on Taylor when he hit those two circus shots that basically caused us the game.

I thought DJA played OK last night. His shooting seemed off a little, don't know the stats, and his defense was good enough. He lacks size and nothing's going to make that better, but his play was good. I think Frank likes his offense and ball handling. DJA is an NBA player that can be counted on to do the right thing at the right time. That is an important thing to a coach, IMO.

ejwallace
02-12-2013, 10:17 AM
I understand that Paul fouled out of the game but why the last two games (which of course have both ended in losses) Frank has chosen to stick D.J. Augustine in the game is beyond me. Why do we have Sam Young on the roster then? I mean poor George Hill all 6í2Ē of him had to guard Joe Johnson 6í8Ē in the post for the last shot in regulation. Did anybody not think this was going to end up in score for Joe?

My understanding is that he puts DJ in at the end of the game because he isn't as carefree of a player as Lance....My guess is that he has some of the best handles on the team, and they want to limit turnovers and protect the ball as much as possible in the final minutes of the game....

Hicks
02-12-2013, 10:22 AM
My understanding is that he puts DJ in at the end of the game because he isn't as carefree of a player as Lance....My guess is that he has some of the best handles on the team, and they want to limit turnovers and protect the ball as much as possible in the final minutes of the game....

That's my guess as well. He trusts DJ more than he trusts Lance right now. Can't say I blame him, but right now there's no ideal choice.

Now, with Danny back on the other hand, hopefully we don't have to see that.

Since86
02-12-2013, 10:23 AM
My understanding is that he puts DJ in at the end of the game because he isn't as carefree of a player as Lance....

Lance was in the game though.

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 10:25 AM
But Lance was in the game last night during the 4th and OT. DJ only came in after PG fouled out. (let me add DJ was also in when Paul picked up his 5th foul fpor a few minutes)

Young was not available last night. Green is terrible. Who should have been in the game after PG fouled out. We had no one really.

Coopdog23
02-12-2013, 10:26 AM
At least Pendergraph showed up

King Tuts Tomb
02-12-2013, 10:39 AM
As a playoff team, aren't the close ones the ones that you want to win? More often than not, in the playoffs--the games are extremely close. Losing all these close games against either short-manned teams, or less talented teams is a bad thing to me.

I'm not too worried. It's such a thin line between winning and losing these games that one crazy shot (see: Johnson, Amir) can swing the outcome. I remember around this time last year Miami was getting hammered for not closing out regular season games. They turned out alright.

I don't really believe that clutch-ness exists so losing close regular season games means nothing to me. It usually just means that a fifty-fifty play went against you.

MTM
02-12-2013, 11:01 AM
Some teams look ahead at the schedule and wind up with a loss as a result because they are focused on the 'next' game instead of the game in front of them. I was at the Raptors game and watched the Nets game on TV and thought in both cases (OT for the Raptors game and the entire Nets game) the team appears to be looking ahead to someone to come in a save the game for them. It's as if they know Granger is returning imminently so they are (perhaps subconciously) waiting to be saved instead of going out there and snatching the "W".

Justin Tyme
02-12-2013, 11:18 AM
I've heard this comment, from different people, at least 10 times this season. I almost take pride in it at this point. A lot of teams win championships, but not everyone can sign the dumbest player of all time to a long term deal.


What's that say about who signed him?

I'll just be polite and say apparently someone didn't do their homework very well.

Sparhawk
02-12-2013, 11:22 AM
I've heard this comment, from different people, at least 10 times this season. I almost take pride in it at this point. A lot of teams win championships, but not everyone can sign the dumbest player of all time to a long term deal.

And yet the Pacers gave him a 3 guaranteed years. Who's dumb now?

Justin Tyme
02-12-2013, 11:32 AM
It is starting to get scary how we fare against potential Eastern Conference playoff teams. I think we are 0-2 against Brooklyn, 1-2 vs. Atlanta, 1-2 vs. Milwaukee, 1-1 vs. New York, 0-1 vs Boston. These are all possible opponents in the first (two) rounds. (I do know that we are 2-0 vs. Miami and Chicago)


I don't want to be negative, but the thought of going 1 and done in the playoffs has been creeping into my mind the last 3 weeks or so. I'm extremely concerned about having to play either Atlanta or Brooklyn in the 1st round.

Yeah yeah I know, Granger will be back and everything will immediately turn into gold and prosperity. Lets just hope it turns out the way everyone is sure it will. To be honest, it has to!

Justin Tyme
02-12-2013, 11:36 AM
I guess it was a Fung Shwe thing or something, because Augustine's defense, though usually terrible, wasn't all that bad on Taylor when he hit those two circus shots that basically caused us the game.


Circus shots isn't exactly how I'd describe those shots, and I can guarantee he couldn't make them again to save his life. Even, he was grinning after hitting them.

Justin Tyme
02-12-2013, 11:43 AM
And yet the Pacers gave him a 3 guaranteed years. Who's dumb now?


If I could, I'd give you a 1,000 thank yous!

I said from day 1, the money didn't bother me, but a fully guaranteed was a mistake.

McKeyFan
02-12-2013, 12:11 PM
And yet the Pacers gave him a 3 guaranteed years. Who's dumb now?

Graham Mirnatzi might have an opinion here . . . but your point is too good to be critical.

dohman
02-12-2013, 12:19 PM
Serious question. If Pendergraph can have this type of production in the back up minutes should we start to look at him as a option over tyler? I have been a huge tyler fan because of his hustle but his price tag is going to be to much. If we can develop pendy this season and he can hit that midrange shot he is going to be deadly. I am all for giving him another game or two to see if he can produce.

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 01:26 PM
It is starting to get scary how we fare against potential Eastern Conference playoff teams. I think we are 0-2 against Brooklyn, 1-2 vs. Atlanta, 1-2 vs. Milwaukee, 1-1 vs. New York, 0-1 vs Boston. These are all possible opponents in the first (two) rounds. (I do know that we are 2-0 vs. Miami and Chicago)

I think the season series is way overrated. I don't put any real significance in the fact that we are 2-0 to the Heat, nor am I worried that we are 0-2 against the Nets.

Regular season ain't the playoffs. There are so many variables besides actual basketball that figures into the regular season that simply are not factors in the playoffs. I have found regular season series is almost worthless as a predictor as to what will happen in the playoffs.

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2013, 01:32 PM
David West WANTED TO PLAY. Scratched cornea. When he first got hurt and they took him to numb the eye, they also had him take some practice court shots. He wasn't even close. So at halftime he expressed the desire to go and again they had him shoot. He was back on track so in he came.

Note that Reggie had 14 boards in the first half I believe. Also note that down the stretch West kept putting a body on him on every Nets possession. I was yelling for him to do it so I was obviously focused on it, and every time he would find him as the shot was about to go up and basically forfeit any shot he had at a rebound in order to keep Reggie at bay. Even still Reggie got a decent amount of 2nd half boards, but West's impact on him was pretty dramatic.

Had West not gotten smacked I think Evans sees a lot less rebounds and likely would have had foul trouble.




I'm suspecting that Sam must have pain still/again because while I could buy the idea that they were easing Green back into the rotation, it makes zero sense that when you needed stops late you would ever think DJ for Paul with Hill rotated tot he clearly taller Joe Johnson would be a good thing. Joe Johnson is the kind of guy you specifically bring Sam Young in to defend, so Young must not be really available.

And even with that in mind, I still would prefer to have the "I can contribute" Pulp out there instead of DJ. It makes you worse defensively and DJ doesn't get the offense going any more than OJ does, especially if Hill is out there already.



Ultimately the loss is on Roy. He was given lots of PT against non-Lopez bigs during the game and didn't really destroy them like he should. Very disappointing. No PG, limited West, no Danny....that's a game where Roy has to look better on offense than Jeff Pendergraph. Seriously. I mean I enjoy rooting for Jeff and it was fun, but let's be realistic about what his game is.




The game was so bad that the only post-game PD people were me and BillS, both sans wives even. It felt kinda pathetic, 2 losers soaking in despair. :( ;)

Sookie
02-12-2013, 01:42 PM
I think DJ playing just has to do with who Vogel trusts to not screw up. Frank is a positive person, and positive with his guys..but all coaches have players they trust and don't trust.

He obviously doesn't trust Green (nor should he), OJ is a rookie, and Young just rejoined the team. Leaving DJ...

Ace E.Anderson
02-12-2013, 01:46 PM
Serious question. If Pendergraph can have this type of production in the back up minutes should we start to look at him as a option over tyler? I have been a huge tyler fan because of his hustle but his price tag is going to be to much. If we can develop pendy this season and he can hit that midrange shot he is going to be deadly. I am all for giving him another game or two to see if he can produce.

Whether that mid range J can be consistent or not, Jeff just seems to be a bigger, longer, more athletic player out there. I LOVE Tyler's intensity and energy, but if that can be replicated by Jeff AND we could turn Tyler, DJ's expiring and our 1st into something of substance, I'd think we'd have to look at it.

pacer4ever
02-12-2013, 02:54 PM
Whether that mid range J can be consistent or not, Jeff just seems to be a bigger, longer, more athletic player out there. I LOVE Tyler's intensity and energy, but if that can be replicated by Jeff AND we could turn Tyler, DJ's expiring and our 1st into something of substance, I'd think we'd have to look at it.

Not only longer more alert on defens. Although Tyler to his credit has gotten a lot better in that area this year. The biggest reason to play Pendy is his screen setting and passing. Tyler will get the ball on the block you know it is never coming out of his hands. No joke if I was writing a scouting report on the guy I would just triple team him he is a selfish player. Even when he tries to pass he isnt good at it. Pendy is just a much better PnR player on both sides of the ball he can read screens and make the write play which is what Tyler can't do. His moves is always predetermined and pretty robotic. Pendy isn't the most fluid guy in the world but compared to Tyler he is light years better in that area. Plus he rebounds and blocks out much better IMO.

Pendy should of been our backup 4 since the preseason.

Trader Joe
02-12-2013, 04:06 PM
David West WANTED TO PLAY. Scratched cornea. When he first got hurt and they took him to numb the eye, they also had him take some practice court shots. He wasn't even close. So at halftime he expressed the desire to go and again they had him shoot. He was back on track so in he came.

Note that Reggie had 14 boards in the first half I believe. Also note that down the stretch West kept putting a body on him on every Nets possession. I was yelling for him to do it so I was obviously focused on it, and every time he would find him as the shot was about to go up and basically forfeit any shot he had at a rebound in order to keep Reggie at bay. Even still Reggie got a decent amount of 2nd half boards, but West's impact on him was pretty dramatic.

Had West not gotten smacked I think Evans sees a lot less rebounds and likely would have had foul trouble.




I'm suspecting that Sam must have pain still/again because while I could buy the idea that they were easing Green back into the rotation, it makes zero sense that when you needed stops late you would ever think DJ for Paul with Hill rotated tot he clearly taller Joe Johnson would be a good thing. Joe Johnson is the kind of guy you specifically bring Sam Young in to defend, so Young must not be really available.

And even with that in mind, I still would prefer to have the "I can contribute" Pulp out there instead of DJ. It makes you worse defensively and DJ doesn't get the offense going any more than OJ does, especially if Hill is out there already.



Ultimately the loss is on Roy. He was given lots of PT against non-Lopez bigs during the game and didn't really destroy them like he should. Very disappointing. No PG, limited West, no Danny....that's a game where Roy has to look better on offense than Jeff Pendergraph. Seriously. I mean I enjoy rooting for Jeff and it was fun, but let's be realistic about what his game is.




The game was so bad that the only post-game PD people were me and BillS, both sans wives even. It felt kinda pathetic, 2 losers soaking in despair. :( ;)

I had to get out of there after the game I was so upset about some of what I saw from the officials and also I couldn't deal with the guy who said we should have subbed in Tyler for DJ.

Cousy47
02-12-2013, 04:19 PM
Vogel probably tried to not let West back in the game, but West is too big of a hardass to not come back in. The only way he isn't coming back is if he can't walk.
I read that same thing in Kravitz's column today. BS. Vogel is the Coach. David wanted to play and Frank let him? West couldn't see, had a scratch in is eye and needed some salty sweat in it so it could heal?

Sparhawk
02-12-2013, 04:23 PM
The team should take this as a learning experience. Need to move the ball around if they want to be successful. Force feeding Roy and clearouts aren't the way to go.

Also, why wasn't Hill just taking it to CJ Watson all night? This to me, was the biggest mistake. Hill didn't do anything til the 4th. Needed him to step up and take control in the first. Have to take advantage of mismatches when they present themselves.

AesopRockOn
02-12-2013, 04:41 PM
I think DJ playing just has to do with who Vogel trusts to not screw up. Frank is a positive person, and positive with his guys..but all coaches have players they trust and don't trust.

He obviously doesn't trust Green (nor should he), OJ is a rookie, and Young just rejoined the team. Leaving DJ...

It's not the post-PG-fouled-out-like-a-dumbass period as much as the fact that DJ (and obviously Hill, in that situation) should NEVER be in during the last defensive possession of the game. Frank needs to be flexible and smart enough to know that a team like the Nets will iso on final plays and that individual defense is the biggest concern.