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View Full Version : What is your definition of "Choke" in sports terms



Unclebuck
02-11-2013, 08:51 AM
In basketball terms what does it mean if a player chokes?

In basketball terms what does it mean if a team chokes.

Define it for me and give me an example.

I had to stop participating in the post game thread because many described the Pacers and David West as choking. So maybe in a less emotional time (instead of right after the game) maybe we should see what people think.

To me it is simple. If the pressure of the moment causes the player to make a mental or physical mistake. That can be choking. It can be, we really don't or can't know for sure, so really I use the term almost never.

However, the mistakes by David West had IMO no element of choking, what-so-ever. Mental and physical fatigue? Yes. Just a mistake for really no reason? yes, we are human, mistakes are part of it. But did the pressure cause West to make the mistake. I see no evidence of that.

if a 90% free throw shooter goes to the free throw line with his team down 1 with no time left on the clock and he misses, does that mean he choked? How can we know that? What if up until that time he was 9 for 9, so he misses and he is 9 for 10 - right at his 90%. I suppose if a player has never missed a free throw in his life misses in that pressure situation - maybe in that case he choked. But I don't think for one second that George Hill choked on the two that he missed. I mean if he was choking than why did he make two

cinotimz
02-11-2013, 08:56 AM
Gotta disagree with you on this one Buck. Now whether he actually choked or not...well like u said, we will never know for sure. But failing to make a routine play that one would normally make when the outcome of the game lays in the balance? Well that would certainly seem to satisfy most all the requirements for what we generally consider choking. Now we certainly dont want to believe that David choked, especially given our opinions of him being a BAMF. But aside from that, the ingredients certainly seem to be there.

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 09:05 AM
The great ones—Jordan, Tiger, Montana, Kobe, Bird, etc—all GET BETTER in the ultimate clutch moment.

I say West choked the other night. I say Hill choked. However, neither of them are "chokers" in general. They almost always perform in the clutch. I think they are nearly as good as the great ones I listed before. So I am not dissing them overall. But on a case by case basis, you gotta call it what it was the other night.

OlBlu
02-11-2013, 09:05 AM
In basketball terms what does it mean if a player chokes?

In basketball terms what does it mean if a team chokes.

Define it for me and give me an example.

I had to stop participating in the post game thread because many described the Pacers and David West as choking. So maybe in a less emotional time (instead of right after the game) maybe we should see what people think.

To me it is simple. If the pressure of the moment causes the player to make a mental or physical mistake. That can be choking. It can be, we really don't or can't know for sure, so really I use the term almost never.

However, the mistakes by David West had IMO no element of choking, what-so-ever. Mental and physical fatigue? Yes. Just a mistake for really no reason? yes, we are human, mistakes are part of it. But did the pressure cause West to make the mistake. I see no evidence of that.

if a 90% free throw shooter goes to the free throw line with his team down 1 with no time left on the clock and he misses, does that mean he choked? How can we know that? What if up until that time he was 9 for 9, so he misses and he is 9 for 10 - right at his 90%. I suppose if a player has never missed a free throw in his life misses in that pressure situation - maybe in that case he choked. But I don't think for one second that George Hill choked on the two that he missed. I mean if he was choking than why did he make two

I don't know in basketball terms but I can give a team example. The Denver Broncos choked against Baltimore in the playoffs and they were outcoached which may have caused the choking. Not Peyton but the rest of the team. Peyton had that game won at least twice and the defense gave up silly hail Mary passes. :cool: ... Shift+R improves the quality of this image.

vapacersfan
02-11-2013, 09:23 AM
I have a question.

Do the greats choke?

I mean, in order to make the last shot you have to be willing to take it. More often than not, especially early on, those shots are misses.

So when Reggie, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, etc miss the final shot does that mean they choked?

vapacersfan
02-11-2013, 09:25 AM
Gotta disagree with you on this one Buck. Now whether he actually choked or not...well like u said, we will never know for sure. But failing to make a routine play that one would normally make when the outcome of the game lays in the balance? Well that would certainly seem to satisfy most all the requirements for what we generally consider choking. Now we certainly dont want to believe that David choked, especially given our opinions of him being a BAMF. But aside from that, the ingredients certainly seem to be there.

I agree with this.

I get where UB is coming from, but I disagree.

If we use that logic then no one ever chokes, they simply make mistakes. I do not buy that, esp. when you make those plays on a routine basis

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 09:27 AM
I have a question.

Do the greats choke?

I mean, in order to make the last shot you have to be willing to take it. More often than not, especially early on, those shots are misses.

No. taking a decent shot and missing is not choking. (Edit: assuming you make them a decent percentage as well. JO was a choker cause he hardly ever made them at the end.) Failing to make a routine play is.

Of the four mistakes in question the other night, the only one that might not be a choke is Hill's drive to the basket. I need to see it again, but I still think it probably is.

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 09:28 AM
No way of knowing, but maybe some stat checker can look into it: I feel strongly that the great ones probably had a much higher free throw percentage at the end of games than their normal percentage.

Unclebuck
02-11-2013, 09:31 AM
Gotta disagree with you on this one Buck. Now whether he actually choked or not...well like u said, we will never know for sure. But failing to make a routine play that one would normally make when the outcome of the game lays in the balance? Well that would certainly seem to satisfy most all the requirements for what we generally consider choking. Now we certainly dont want to believe that David choked, especially given our opinions of him being a BAMF. But aside from that, the ingredients certainly seem to be there.


OK, so if West makes that same play in the first quarter, is that choking? (and I mean when he threw the ill advised pass) Are you saying he never would have thrown the pass in the first quarter? What if I found an old replay of him making an almost idenitical pass in either a blowout game or in the first half of a game?

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 09:32 AM
OK, so if West makes that same play in the first quarter, is that choking?

No.

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 09:34 AM
OK, so if West makes that same play in the first quarter, is that choking?

No.

Well, maybe if it's game 7 of the finals, when if could really matter later in the game. Generally first quarter mistakes are not determining things.

Apart from weird situations, it's difficult to call something a choke in the first half.

BillS
02-11-2013, 09:35 AM
I really think that choking means to make a mistake where it has the kind of impact that reverses the fortunes of the game. I don't necessarily believe pressure has to be involved - we've all seen teams blow huge leads to lose without necessarily being forced into that position by the opponent - I'd call that "choking away a huge lead".

Making a mistake (or, for a team, a series of them) in a situation where playing well is both POSSIBLE and NECESSARY would be choking to me.

Since86
02-11-2013, 09:36 AM
The great ones—Jordan, Tiger, Montana, Kobe, Bird, etc—all GET BETTER in the ultimate clutch moment.

MJ has a famous qoute about missing more clutch shots than he hits, but still being willing to take them, and the argument is that he gets better during those moments?

We have a very bad tendancy to forget those 50 "clutch" misses and only remember the ones players hit.

BillS
02-11-2013, 09:38 AM
MJ has a famous qoute about missing more clutch shots than he hits, but still being willing to take them, and the argument is that he gets better during those moments?

We have a very bad tendancy to forget those 50 "clutch" misses and only remember the ones players hit.

I agree with some of the others that a "clutch miss" isn't a choke - unless it is a bunny shot or something a player should hit like a free throw (I have zero tolerance for missed free throws).

Unclebuck
02-11-2013, 09:40 AM
MJ has a famous qoute about missing more clutch shots than he hits, but still being willing to take them, and the argument is that he gets better during those moments?

We have a very bad tendancy to forget those 50 "clutch" misses and only remember the ones players hit.


OK, so he choked on the ones he missed and on the ones he made he didn't choke.

Just like Hill choked on the two free throws he missed, but didn't choke on the other two that he made, even though they were right after eachother.

I'm getting more and more confused

BillS
02-11-2013, 09:44 AM
OK, so he choked on the ones he missed and on the ones he made he didn't choke.

Just like Hill choked on the two free throws he missed, but didn't choke on the other two that he made, even though they were right after eachother.

I'm getting more and more confused

Well, I would certainly call missing free throws a choke, and often do. Make the damn charity shots, you're a professional! :zip:

cinotimz
02-11-2013, 09:44 AM
OK, so if West makes that same play in the first quarter, is that choking? (and I mean when he threw the ill advised pass) Are you saying he never would have thrown the pass in the first quarter? What if I found an old replay of him making an almost idenitical pass in either a blowout game or in the first half of a game?

As you said...we will never know for sure...but one of the key elements is the fact the game hangs in the balance...so it seems even the most simple or mundane tasks become more challenging...i remember hearing stats of free throw shooters percentages in the last two minutes of games and the difference being like 4 points or less...or someting along those lines...and then one could compare that to his percentage at all times....if it falls off, then one could make an argument that the pressure is affecting him and he is "choking"....again....one can argue that it just happens...sure...but if the frequency increases...well..its not something u can really ignore...if Hills an 80% free throw shooter yet seemingly cant hit that percentage in the last two minutes of close games....well.....

Again, theres no way to definitively prove any of this...ever....its incredibly subjective...and probably a bit unfair...but at the same time theres no denying the pressure of the moment affects people in different ways....most seem to make more mistakes or have more difficulty doing things they normally have little problem doing...its the rare individual that in these situations seem to rise to the occasion and become even better under such pressure...

vapacersfan
02-11-2013, 09:49 AM
MJ has a famous qoute about missing more clutch shots than he hits, but still being willing to take them, and the argument is that he gets better during those moments?

We have a very bad tendancy to forget those 50 "clutch" misses and only remember the ones players hit.

I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed. - MJ


You miss 100 of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky

BillS
02-11-2013, 09:56 AM
You miss 100 of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky

So, wait - if you don't take 200 shots you could be 50%? :lol:

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 10:04 AM
MJ has a famous qoute about missing more clutch shots than he hits, but still being willing to take them, and the argument is that he gets better during those moments?

We have a very bad tendancy to forget those 50 "clutch" misses and only remember the ones players hit.

You'd have to compare his percentage of these last second shots to his overall fg% to get a sense of whether my assertion is right or wrong. Even then, it would be difficult, because last second shots are usually outside and heavily defended, unlike many other shots during the course of a game.

Ragnar
02-11-2013, 10:10 AM
I agree with UB on this one, I see it as a mistake not a choke. Maybe if we did had not just played 4 games in 5 nights I would see it differently.

King Tuts Tomb
02-11-2013, 10:12 AM
LeBron was the biggest choker in the world until his teammates started hitting open three pointers in the playoffs. Now he's super clutch.

Since86
02-11-2013, 10:25 AM
You'd have to compare his percentage of these last second shots to his overall fg% to get a sense of whether my assertion is right or wrong. Even then, it would be difficult, because last second shots are usually outside and heavily defended, unlike many other shots during the course of a game.

Not trying to be a dick here, but you throw out a pretty generic statement about players getting better at crunch time, then when it's pointed out that one of your examples has a famous quote about failing, and now you need percentages to back it up?

You weren't worried about percentages before, only when the assertion is challeneged.

We're not talking about specific examples of when GH/West supposedly "choked," like the defense in the situations, it's just getting labeled as a choke just because it was a missed opportunity. Why isn't that the standard with your examples?

Pacer Fan
02-11-2013, 10:39 AM
I've always used the word "choke" more towards the opponent as more of an arrogant way of them losing. But, when a team or player under performs in a bad way then it could be considered choking. Did the Pacers choke against the Raptors or did everything that could go wrong just go wrong. I think West lost his cool because of the way the game was being called. I think he was as frustrated as I have ever seen him. So, in a way he choked.

Hill driving to the basket wasn't a choke, but a bad no call by the refs. Lowery punched Hills elbow from behind that sent the ball out of bounds. This was a bad break for the Pacers, no choking involved.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2013, 10:45 AM
I think the Supreme Court defines this best - "I know it when I see it."

And you should ask Nick Anderson about it.

I've been busy this weekend. Are people calling the Toronto game a choke?

A collapse and a choke are not the same things. The Pacers just didn't finish the game. That might or might not be choking.

David threw a low percentage pass but as I recall - NOBODY ELSE WAS OPEN EITHER! That's a team turnover.

Brad8888
02-11-2013, 10:46 AM
:choke:

Also, while we are discussing this, we might as well determine if there is any such thing as a "hot streak" at the same time.

To the "Intuition Over Integers" crowd (thanks McKey Fan), I would think the answer to both is a resounding yes. I am a member of this crowd.

To the stat guys, the answer is no, it is all part of the overall dataset that creates the stats used for the analysis, and correlation does not equal causality.

Unclebuck
02-11-2013, 10:47 AM
I mean I guess Reggie called the Knicks chokers in both the 8 in 9 second game and in the 25 points in the 4th quarter game.

OK, I just thought of when a team did choke. I think the Knicks choked, or maybe were in shock after Reggie scored 8 in 9 seconds, Starks missed two free throws and Patrick missed a rebound putback. In that situation it was such na shocking swing, that I think the Knicks couldn't process just what happened and it impacted Starks shots.

Brad, we were thinking the same thing at the exact same time

Trader Joe
02-11-2013, 10:47 AM
Nobody else was open, but David had a time out to use did he not?

To me David's pass and Cody/Sheehey's missed defense at the end of the Illinois game were both prototypical examples of a choke.

BillS
02-11-2013, 10:50 AM
At the game I thought there wasn't a timeout, but later I found out there was.

Doing that without a timeout available was a mistake but it was forced to a certain extent - so not a choke.

Making that mistake with a timeout left - yeah, that gets close to the definition of a choke.

Ransom
02-11-2013, 10:56 AM
The great ones—Jordan, Tiger, Montana, Kobe, Bird, etc—all GET BETTER in the ultimate clutch moment.

I say West choked the other night. I say Hill choked. However, neither of them are "chokers" in general. They almost always perform in the clutch. I think they are nearly as good as the great ones I listed before. So I am not dissing them overall. But on a case by case basis, you gotta call it what it was the other night.

Not to be a smart aleck, but do you have any stats to show that Tiger shot or putted better in clutch situations? Or that Kobe shoots better in clutch situations? Henry Abbott would argue he does not.

Unclebuck
02-11-2013, 11:00 AM
Making that mistake with a timeout left - yeah, that gets close to the definition of a choke.

Wouldn't the opposite be more true. I mean here he is knowing there are no timeouts, knowing he has to get the ball in, so he panics and throws the ball long. But he knew the were timeouts and he threw the ball quick, he wasn't close to a 5 second count.

Is it possible that he thought Lance was running free and je just didn't see the defender and the pass he threw wasn't a perfect throw.

Sookie
02-11-2013, 11:11 AM
To me, choking is when a team has the lead, and they lose the game through their own mistakes. Turnovers, easy missed opportunities to score, poor defense.

Obviously, the other team is going to have something to do with it, but I think the idea is that the leading team/player had control..and they lost it.

BillS
02-11-2013, 11:12 AM
Wouldn't the opposite be more true. I mean here he is knowing there are no timeouts, knowing he has to get the ball in, so he panics and throws the ball long. But he knew the were timeouts and he threw the ball quick, he wasn't close to a 5 second count.

Is it possible that he thought Lance was running free and je just didn't see the defender and the pass he threw wasn't a perfect throw.

I think it is consistent with my definition. No timeouts, have to get the ball in, make a bad pass - that's a situation where the defense has a big part in forcing the turnover. I would only call it a "choke" if it was done while missing other safe passes. As I recall the rest of the team was pretty covered up (the Raptors pressed hard the last few Pacer inbounds).

A choke really has to be based on making a game critical mistake when other options existed and were possible. In this case, the timeout option was definitely possible, and would have been a better call.

Bottom line is that a choke is an unforced error made under game-changing circumstances when the possibility existed of maintaining the lead (i.e. you can't choke if you are the team coming from behind). A choke is a subcase of a mistake.

imawhat
02-11-2013, 11:12 AM
Even David West himself basically said he choked.

He said he second guessed himself and threw the pass. With a timeout we could've advanced the ball to half-court but he panicked.

It was a very bad pass to make in any circumstance, and it was well out of the realm of what David West normally does.

Unclebuck
02-11-2013, 11:17 AM
OK, maybe I should ask this. Is choke one of the worst things you can say about a player. or is it somthing that happens to them all - they all do it from time to time.

I always considered choking to be about the worst thing you can say about a player - in fact it is the worst thing you can say about a player

Maybe I'm wrong

Brad8888
02-11-2013, 11:20 AM
I mean I guess Reggie called the Knicks chokers in both the 8 in 9 second game and in the 25 points in the 4th quarter game.

OK, I just thought of when a team did choke. I think the Knicks choked, or maybe were in shock after Reggie scored 8 in 9 seconds, Starks missed two free throws and Patrick missed a rebound putback. In that situation it was such na shocking swing, that I think the Knicks couldn't process just what happened and it impacted Starks shots.

Brad, we were thinking the same thing at the exact same time

:point:

:spock:

ChicagoJ
02-11-2013, 11:22 AM
Alright. Is panicked the same as choked?

I see a bad decision from a guy that is normally pretty reliable at crunch time.

To me a choke is more of when you're in a situation to do what you do best, but fail at the most crucial time.

I also think in an 82 game season that we should never make too much out of one single game.

You start seeing something over a series of games and it matters more.


Did Reggie choke at the end of Game #6 of the 2000 Finals with those two badly-missed threepointers that could have extended it to Game #7?

Did Rifleman choke at the end of Game #5 in 1991 when we could have defeating ****ing Larry Bird and those ***hole Celtics?

(yes. to both of those.)

Sookie
02-11-2013, 11:23 AM
OK, maybe I should ask this. Is choke one of the worst things you can say about a player. or is it somthing that happens to them all - they all do it from time to time.

I always considered choking to be about the worst thing you can say about a player - in fact it is the worst thing you can say about a player

Maybe I'm wrong

All players choke from time to time.

There are players who have a pattern of choking. I think calling a player a "choker" (aka, has a pattern of choking) is the worst thing you could say about a player.

Unclebuck
02-11-2013, 11:27 AM
I am now convinced that the term choking serves no real value and shouldn't be used, because it has no real standard of meaning.

Although some players are better under pressure than others, and some are more mentally tough than others, and some are just better than others.

vnzla81
02-11-2013, 11:40 AM
West choked twice on the Toronto game, Hill also choked, s*** happens.

Trader Joe
02-11-2013, 11:43 AM
West choked twice on the Toronto game, Hill also choked, s*** happens.

Exactly. Toronto was an anomaly, not the norm, our two best crunch time players made unusual mistakes. It's not a big deal, but it was a choke. Fatigue, sloppiness, just generally not giving a **** against Toronto (which we all know does happen in the NBA) who knows why exactly it happened, but it happened. In terms of games that I actually wouldn't mind losing that Toronto game is right up there, yeah we should have won against a bad team, but I'm glad we beat CHI, ATL, and PHI and if losing to TOR was the trade we had to make to do that I am ok with it (as long as we take care of BKN tonight)

Mac_Daddy
02-11-2013, 11:46 AM
I look at choking as a consistent trend toward not being able to close out a game. Sometimes people have a bad game here and there where they underperform, but I look at their overall trend. David West is not a choker. In fact, he's been consistently good down the stretch when we have needed someone to step up.

I also look at who steps up to try and make things happen. Half of being clutch is having the cojones to step up and take the shot or make the play, let alone hit the shot.

Hicks
02-11-2013, 11:47 AM
I define it basically the way it is described when Will Galen cited a definition the other day. It's letting nervousness or anxiety beat you and cause your mind/body to perform at a lower level than normal and therefore resulting in you failing to execute in clutch situation. I think the term literally derives from that concept; your throat feeling tight or dry because you are nervous, and those same nerves being the reason why you perform at a lower level than your norm.

Robert Horry was always cool as a cucumber. If he missed a shot late in a game, I would never ever consider that a choke job because I know he's not nervous. He just missed a jumpshot.

There are other players that seem to get too nervous and shrivel in those big moments. They would be chokers/choking.

vnzla81
02-11-2013, 11:50 AM
Here is a good video showing why people called Lebron "Lechoke"

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XG9WMckoayo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Note that West and Hill don't choke all the time so they don't qualify as chokers.

Since86
02-11-2013, 11:52 AM
Exactly. Toronto was an anomaly, not the norm, our two best crunch time players made unusual mistakes. It's not a big deal, but it was a choke. Fatigue, sloppiness, just generally not giving a **** against Toronto (which we all know does happen in the NBA) who knows why exactly it happened, but it happened.

So basically any time they fail, it's a choke? Looks like you're more interested in the outcome, as opposed to the reason why it happened.

Chocking is a subcategory of failing, and it revolves around the "why."

Trader Joe
02-11-2013, 11:54 AM
So basically any time they fail, it's a choke? Looks like you're more interested in the outcome, as opposed to the reason why it happened.

Chocking is a subcategory of failing, and it revolves around the "why."

I think choking involves making one or more unforced mistakes. Even if you want to give West a pass on the pass, he still blanked on that timeout.

Hicks
02-11-2013, 12:00 PM
So basically any time they fail, it's a choke? Looks like you're more interested in the outcome, as opposed to the reason why it happened.

Chocking is a subcategory of failing, and it revolves around the "why."

That's always been my understanding as well, but I see more and more people use 'choke' as a substitute for any kind of late game failure. I don't care for it, but I do read/hear that more than I thought I used to.

Since86
02-11-2013, 12:01 PM
I think choking involves making one or more unforced mistakes.

So do you consider missed shots/FTs "mistakes?"

I don't.

Trader Joe
02-11-2013, 12:02 PM
So do you consider missed shots/FTs "mistakes?"

I don't.

No I do not. Assuming they are good shots, now if a team is settling for shots outside of their offense it starts to look like a choke.

Since86
02-11-2013, 12:03 PM
No I do not. Assuming they are good shots, now if a team is settling for shots outside of their offense it starts to look like a choke.


I should have emphasized it more in the original question, but I was more hoping to get it geared towards missing FTs. Are those chokes?

Trader Joe
02-11-2013, 12:04 PM
I should have emphasized it more in the original question, but I was more hoping to get it geared towards missing FTs. Are those chokes?

Eh, free throws tend to hug pretty hard to the law of averages so I don't necessarily view that as a choke.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2013, 12:09 PM
I should have emphasized it more in the original question, but I was more hoping to get it geared towards missing FTs. Are those chokes?


I think of choking, as I think I said above, as failing to do something you normally do well at a very important time.

So when an 80%+ shooter misses four in a row in a big moment, then that to me is much more of choke than West underthrowing an inbounds pass, which is just a really embarassingly bad turnover.

When one of the best crunch time shooters of all time misses a pair of shots in a big NBA Finals game, that's more of a choke than Paul George slipping and missing and off-balance shot as time expires. He's not a proven clutch player yet.

Since86
02-11-2013, 12:13 PM
So when an 80%+ shooter misses four in a row in a big moment, then that to me is much more of choke than West underthrowing an inbounds pass, which is just a really embarassingly bad turnover.


That's where I am with it.

Looking back on it from the seat of my work chair, it's a bad pass to make. Watching it unfold real time, I thought the decision to throw the pass was okay/good, but that he just underthrew the ball. I don't even think Johnson had to cross halfcourt to intercept the pass. I thought, in real time, had West put more air under the ball we would have been talking about how great of a heads up play it was, because all 10 guys were well within the Toronto half court, leaving 3/5ths of the court wide open space.

To me, choking is letting the situation get the better of you. Throwing a pass that shouldn't ever be made, just losing control of the ball, doing something where the pressure noticeably got to you.

I think West's problem was execution, not idea.

I haven't looked at the replay since like Sat, but I thought Johnson made a really good play. He came across the court to get to the pass. I'm not sure a lot of 6'10 forwards/centers make that play.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2013, 12:20 PM
That's where I am with it.

Looking back on it from the seat of my work chair, it's a bad pass to make. Watching it unfold real time, I thought the decision to throw the pass was okay/good, but that he just underthrew the ball. I don't even think Johnson had to cross halfcourt to intercept the pass. I thought, in real time, had West put more air under the ball we would have been talking about how great of a heads up play it was, because all 10 guys were well within the Toronto half court, leaving 3/5ths of the court wide open space.

To me, choking is letting the situation get the better of you. Throwing a pass that shouldn't ever be made, just losing control of the ball, doing something where the pressure noticeably got to you.

I think West's problem was execution, not idea.

I haven't looked at the replay since like Sat, but I thought Johnson made a really good play. He came across the court to get to the pass. I'm not sure a lot of 6'10 forwards/centers make that play.

I looked at David West and thought I saw Big Ben, after this year's shoulder injury, underthrowing yet another pass on the sideline that was easily picked off. (Cowboys, Bengals.)

But that's just me!

I generally agree. I didn't fault the idea in real time, but he underthrew the ball. He puts enough air under it and Lance (I think it was Lance?) gets the ball in the front court and dribbles out the time and we're hailing him for having the guts to throw that ball.

imawhat
02-11-2013, 12:24 PM
OK, maybe I should ask this. Is choke one of the worst things you can say about a player. or is it somthing that happens to them all - they all do it from time to time.

I always considered choking to be about the worst thing you can say about a player - in fact it is the worst thing you can say about a player

Maybe I'm wrong

I don't think so at all. I think it's worse to be a net negative every time you step on the floor.

There are a lot of really good players that don't play well in clutch situations. Darren Collison is a hyperbolic example. Before that runner he hit this season, I couldn't recall a time when Darren hit a shot in a close game with less than a minute to play. I could recall multiple airballs, turnovers, and shots that barely hit the backboard. Having said that I'd still take him over our current backup, 10 times out of 10.

imawhat
02-11-2013, 12:28 PM
Alright. Is panicked the same as choked?

I see a bad decision from a guy that is normally pretty reliable at crunch time.

I think they can be the same. What happened with David vs. Toronto was really out of character. He's the most clutch player on the team and almost never panics. He's so under control, even when the shot clock is at 3 or 2. I'd probably feel most comfortable with him even taking a game tying three of anyone on our team. But he choked against Toronto.

Slick Pinkham
02-11-2013, 12:34 PM
The great ones—Jordan, Tiger, Montana, Kobe, Bird, etc—all GET BETTER in the ultimate clutch moment.


There is an element of perception bias at play, though. You remember the made shots/plays and label them clutch, while forgetting the misses.

Kobe is remembered for clutch shots, and he certainly is not afraid to take them. However, at one point I read an analysis of "heroball" shooting in general. Kobe's shooting percentage in the last seconds of a game, tied or behind 2 or less, is actually lower than his overall shooting percentage. I am sure that this is the case for many people who we deem to be clutch. If Kobe takes 5 potential game-winning jumpers, misses 4 and hits 1, the 1 that he hit is shown forever and becomes part of the legacy of clutchness, deserved or not. The other 4 are forgotten. For Lebron, the 4 misses were remembered and the 1 miss was forgotten, until he was deemed a winner.

vnzla81
02-11-2013, 12:39 PM
I looked at David West and thought I saw Big Ben, after this year's shoulder injury, underthrowing yet another pass on the sideline that was easily picked off. (Cowboys, Bengals.)

But that's just me!

I generally agree. I didn't fault the idea in real time, but he underthrew the ball. He puts enough air under it and Lance (I think it was Lance?) gets the ball in the front court and dribbles out the time and we're hailing him for having the guts to throw that ball.


You keep talking about that one play but you forget about the other one in overtime were he threw the ball into the stands.

Look I get that you UB and others don't want to think about "BAMF" as a choker, especially UB(he was having as much fun as Bills dogs on UB's leg during that game ;)) but the reality is that the guy choked, twice, I mean he admitted choking into a point were he doesn't even want to talk about the game.(twitter interview).

vnzla81
02-11-2013, 12:46 PM
By the way this hasn't been the first time West throws some crazy pass at the end of the game losing the Pacers a game, I can remember 2 or 3 games last year were he threw the ball away, I also remember Hill missing free throws in important situations, like I said before s*** happens and no player is perfect.

Randolph_HorseLips
02-11-2013, 01:04 PM
UncleBuck,

In terms of a team, I've always thought "choke" can mean one of two things:

1) When a team blows a game they had in hand. When they beat themselves.
2) When a team is severely upset by a team they should beat. (The #1 seeded Sonics choked against the #8 Nuggets that one year)

I don't say "choke" very much but I think this is the way it is generally defined. Trolls in message-board land tend to misuse the term.

I gather that this is in response to the Toronto game. By either of those definitions, we choked. When you lose to a bad team at home, and you do it after leading by 4 with 10 seconds to go, you choked.

David West definitely played a large part in the choke. That pass was bone-head City, and the 30 pts he scored is essentially wasted.

Wasn't all his fault. George Hill came up small and Paul George disappeared after Halftime. I don't remember Tyler doing anything, either. But like it or not, the lights shine the brightest in the waning moments of games. That's when players, individually, have the choke label thrown at them.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2013, 01:33 PM
By the way this hasn't been the first time West throws some crazy pass at the end of the game losing the Pacers a game, I can remember 2 or 3 games last year were he threw the ball away, I also remember Hill missing free throws in important situations, like I said before s*** happens and no player is perfect.


A) David himself said he choked. I'm not disputing that nor focusing on it. He clearly did not make gamewinning plays and in fact the plays he made contributed to the loss. I think that's out of character for him and I don't think it happens often enough to label him as a choker.

Meanwhile, I noticed a few missing commas, and run-on sentences from Hell. Did you choke on that post, or was it just a few grammar flubs on one post out of almost 23,000?

(Not that I really care that much about grammar, but as an illustration: if the standard is "anything less than perfection is a choke job" then I disagree with the standard.)

David made some bad plays at crunchtime. No doubt. But that's all it was. He didn't choke he just screwed up the finish of one out of 82 regular season games.

Its Toronto, in February for crying out loud. And that's why I'm not all that worked up about it. He's shown many more times than not that he can be relied on in those situations.

Since86
02-11-2013, 01:35 PM
A) David himself said he choked.

Where did he say that?

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 02:06 PM
Not trying to be a dick here, but you throw out a pretty generic statement about players getting better at crunch time, then when it's pointed out that one of your examples has a famous quote about failing, and now you need percentages to back it up?

You weren't worried about percentages before, only when the assertion is challeneged.

I'm confrused.

Jordan said he missed a lot of shots at the end of games. Does this prove he didn't get better at the end of games?

ChicagoJ
02-11-2013, 02:09 PM
Where did he say that?


I'm not on Twitter. I thought I saw somebody post that he said something to that effect on Twitter. Now I can't find it.

So I assume at this point that I'm wrong and have misquoted him.

I choked on that post. Should have checked my sources better. Sorry about that.

imawhat
02-11-2013, 02:40 PM
I choked on that post. Should have checked my sources better. Sorry about that.

That's the worst thing you can call a poster.

imawhat
02-11-2013, 02:44 PM
Here's what was said: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/02/08/rudy-gay-game-winner-david-west-paul-george-toronto-raptors-indiana-pacers/1903931/

"I can't be that careless at the end of the game with the ball," West said. "I second-guessed myself, hesitated a little bit and threw it short."

Shade
02-11-2013, 02:44 PM
Losing control of a game through one or a series of errors.

BlueNGold
02-11-2013, 09:21 PM
Missing 3 shots in the last minute of regulation including the last second shot?

The Future
02-11-2013, 09:40 PM
Delete this thread ASAP.

We should have 18 losses (BROOKLYN, DENVER, TORONTO should have been wins)

Now we have 21 losses.

vnzla81
02-11-2013, 09:53 PM
Today the Pacers choked again, two consecutive games with West making stupid decisions at the end.

Randolph_HorseLips
02-11-2013, 10:07 PM
Today the Pacers choked again, two consecutive games with West making stupid decisions at the end.

This team looks so lifeless on offense all of the sudden, following all those 100+ point games.

Tough to figure out.

Granger's return might be coming at the right time.

D-BONE
02-11-2013, 10:12 PM
UncleBuck,

In terms of a team, I've always thought "choke" can mean one of two things:

1) When a team blows a game they had in hand. When they beat themselves.
2) When a team is severely upset by a team they should beat. (The #1 seeded Sonics choked against the #8 Nuggets that one year)

I don't say "choke" very much but I think this is the way it is generally defined. Trolls in message-board land tend to misuse the term.

I gather that this is in response to the Toronto game. By either of those definitions, we choked. When you lose to a bad team at home, and you do it after leading by 4 with 10 seconds to go, you choked.

David West definitely played a large part in the choke. That pass was bone-head City, and the 30 pts he scored is essentially wasted.

Wasn't all his fault. George Hill came up small and Paul George disappeared after Halftime. I don't remember Tyler doing anything, either. But like it or not, the lights shine the brightest in the waning moments of games. That's when players, individually, have the choke label thrown at them.

Agree with this and I was referring to a team choke in the Toronto post-game thread. In that case, it was not only the failure to close, but the numerous poor plays / turnovers. I mean, we had the lead really late, yet we couldn't even get shots up to try to close it due to several bonehead plays.

Nets was bordering on a choke, but we didn't totally not give ourselves a chance. We had shots to win or stay in, but did not make. What both games definitely constitute are complete inability to close - crunch time impotence.

Dr. Hibbert
02-11-2013, 10:20 PM
David West choked. No question about it. Anyone claiming differently is just looking for reasons to be a bobbleheaded optimist, which is fine, just not reality.

Hicks
02-11-2013, 10:28 PM
David West choked. No question about it. Anyone claiming differently is just looking for reasons to be a bobbleheaded optimist, which is fine, just not reality.

That, or we just have a different definition of 'choke'. But no, I'm just a bobbleheaded optimist... Carry on...

Cactus Jax
02-12-2013, 12:04 AM
2 of the 3 shots West had late would've been really tough makes, and it was obvious that West wasn't 100% with the eye issue. I'd blame Vogel for having him out there when as quoted after the game, he was basically playing with 1 eye. Everybody just was terrible tonight besides Pendergraph, and maybe Hill, and Stephenson at times. I think Lance should've created some more 3 point shots towards the end of the overtime. Frank stayed big for too long towards the end of the game, and when he had to replace PG, he chose DJ Augustin for god knows why.

BillS
02-12-2013, 09:26 AM
Today the Pacers choked again, two consecutive games with West making stupid decisions at the end.

I don't quite call the Brooklyn game a choke because we were not in command of the game through a significant portion of the fourth quarter. To me, in order to choke you can't have been see-sawing the lead. I would just call this a bad loss.

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 09:34 AM
I don't quite call the Brooklyn game a choke because we were not in command of the game through a significant portion of the fourth quarter. To me, in order to choke you can't have been see-sawing the lead. I would just call this a bad loss.

Pacers were up 4 points with a minute to go and still lost the game, that is a choke, they score one time and the game is over, Hill had one chance, West had 3 opportunities and nothing.

imawhat
02-12-2013, 09:38 AM
Pacers were up 3 points with a minute to go

Fixed

Since86
02-12-2013, 09:41 AM
I don't quite call the Brooklyn game a choke because we were not in command of the game through a significant portion of the fourth quarter. To me, in order to choke you can't have been see-sawing the lead. I would just call this a bad loss.

Trying to rationalize with the irrational.

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 09:49 AM
Fixed


My bad I meant to say 4 points, Pacers were up 4 points at the 01:03min mark when Paul George decided to foul Evans.

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 09:53 AM
Sorry I started this thread

BillS
02-12-2013, 09:53 AM
My bad I meant to say 4 points, Pacers were up 4 points at the 01:03min mark when Paul George decided to foul Evans.

But you have to figure the NBA is a game of runs. Failing to hold on to a 4 point lead when you were down by that many points a few minutes before isn't a choke, it is just failing to finish. After all, if the Pacers end up winning would it be that the Nets choked away the 3 point lead they had at 3:46?

Losing control is the missing element between my definition of choke and yours. Being in the lead does not imply you were in control of the game, particularly if the lead has constantly changed throughout the last minutes of the fourth quarter.

BillS
02-12-2013, 09:54 AM
Sorry I started this thread

Not sure why, ultimately it has been a pretty good discussion and insight into why certain posters feel the way they do after certain losses.

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 10:02 AM
But you have to figure the NBA is a game of runs. Failing to hold on to a 4 point lead when you were down by that many points a few minutes before isn't a choke, it is just failing to finish. After all, if the Pacers end up winning would it be that the Nets choked away the 3 point lead they had at 3:46?

Losing control is the missing element between my definition of choke and yours. Being in the lead does not imply you were in control of the game, particularly if the lead has constantly changed throughout the last minutes of the fourth quarter.

Failing to finish is one of the descriptions of a choke, failing to score wide open jumpers is a choke, making stupid mistakes at the end of the game is a choke, all those things happened last night.

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 10:04 AM
Not sure why, ultimately it has been a pretty good discussion and insight into why certain posters feel the way they do after certain losses.

I know less now than when I started the thread. And now it seems like every loss will be judge as as either a choke or not.

What is the opposite of choke? any thoughts?

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 10:10 AM
I know less now than when I started the thread. And now it seems like every loss will be judge as as either a choke or not.

What is the opposite of choke? any thoughts?

Aren't you the guy that posted this?



Now that was a choke

BillS
02-12-2013, 10:13 AM
Failing to finish is one of the descriptions of a choke, failing to score wide open jumpers is a choke, making stupid mistakes at the end of the game is a choke, all those things happened last night.

Your definition of choke pretty much covers any loss where the team had a chance to win but didn't execute. That would make the distinction between a loss and a choke pretty useless as far as I'm concerned - except for pretty exceptional games even between the best teams, EVERY loss involves mistakes somewhere down the line. Teams simply don't play perfect games, and just the fact of a mistake at the end of a game causing the loss as opposed to one in the 3rd quarter that lets the other team get ahead for good doesn't make that former game a choke to me.

If you have a pair of teams essentially scoring at will on each other throughout the game, with the lead changing 30-40 times, and the win comes down to a final drive and layup that rolls out and therefore gives the other team the win, is that a choke? It's a missed shot at the end of the game that was the reason for the loss.

To have choked you have to have been in a position where winning is completely assured unless you do something stupid. While making mistakes kept us from holding the lead, the very fact that the lead had changed hands multiple times in the last 5 minutes leads to the conclusion that winning WASN'T completely assured. In a 2-possession game, the Nets could have just as easily won with a couple of 3 point shots at the right times without any mistakes by the Pacers. To me, a choke has to be something where the outcome was not going to change unless the leading team makes those final mistakes. The Toronto game fits that bill pretty well, but the Brooklyn game does not.

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 10:18 AM
Aren't you the guy that posted this?

That was a joke.

Coopdog23
02-12-2013, 10:29 AM
When you have a lead late in the game or a demanding lead in a playoff series and you end up blowing it. Examples: 2004 Yankees vs Red Sox, 2012 Packers vs Colts, Pacers vs Raptors/Nets

McKeyFan
02-12-2013, 11:15 AM
That was a joke.

Ahso! Velly funny Runklebuck. A choke!

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 12:07 PM
Your definition of choke pretty much covers any loss where the team had a chance to win but didn't execute. That would make the distinction between a loss and a choke pretty useless as far as I'm concerned - except for pretty exceptional games even between the best teams, EVERY loss involves mistakes somewhere down the line. Teams simply don't play perfect games, and just the fact of a mistake at the end of a game causing the loss as opposed to one in the 3rd quarter that lets the other team get ahead for good doesn't make that former game a choke to me.


If he's going to consider every loss a "choke", then it seem to me that vnzla is saying that he truly expects that this Pacers team is good enough to go 82-0.

:pineapple:apple:

And David West is clutch enough that he can make all the shots, passes, and defensive stops to get us to 82-0.

:dorange: :mango:

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 12:13 PM
If he's going to consider every loss a "choke", then it seem to me that vnzla is saying that he truly expects that this Pacers team is good enough to go 82-0.

:pineapple:apple:

I'm not considering every loss a choke, just this last two games were THE ALL-STAR choked and made mistakes at the end of the game again.

Note that I understand why you and UB don't want to see it that way(man crush glasses on)

BillS
02-12-2013, 12:21 PM
Note that I understand why you and UB don't want to see it that way(man crush glasses on)

Yeah, that's the ONLY reason for anyone to disagree with your definition. :rolleyes:

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 12:27 PM
Yeah, that's the ONLY reason for anyone to disagree with your definition. :rolleyes:

That is one of the reasons why UB opened this thread, he didn't like people calling "The Pacers MVP" a choker.


Note that I didn't say that it was the only reason, but is one of the reasons for sure, I understand were are they coming from though no big deal.


Please don't make this thread about me I was just responding to Bills, thank you.

Trader Joe
02-12-2013, 12:32 PM
Brooklyn game was not a choke.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 12:59 PM
Brooklyn game was not a choke.


They're one game behind us in the standings, are a 12-12 road team, and neither team was really "in control" of the game.

That's a tough loss, not a "choke."

Unclebuck
02-12-2013, 01:18 PM
That is one of the reasons why UB opened this thread, he didn't like people calling "The Pacers MVP" a choker.


Note that I didn't say that it was the only reason, but is one of the reasons for sure, I understand were are they coming from though no big deal.


Please don't make this thread about me I was just responding to Bills, thank you.


Maybe I really wanted to know what some people in this forum thought. The fact that many people suggested that West choked brought the issue to my mind, and no for the record I don't think David choked.

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Maybe I really wanted to know what some people in this forum thought. The fact that many people suggested that West choked brought the issue to my mind, and no for the record I don't think David choked.

Like I don't know that ;)

QuickRelease
02-12-2013, 01:46 PM
I wouldn't define it as just a miss. People miss all the time, even the great ones. To me, a choke is when a person performs up until the pressure is really on, but then tightens up and starts doing uncharacteristic things as the pressure increases.

McKeyFan
02-12-2013, 02:41 PM
To me, a choke is when a person performs up until the pressure is really on, but then tightens up and starts doing uncharacteristic things as the pressure increases.

Like making two really bad passes.

Coopdog23
02-12-2013, 02:42 PM
Brooklyn game was not a choke.

The final minute of regulation and the whole OT was

Hicks
02-12-2013, 07:48 PM
Like making two really bad passes.

If he did that because he tightened up, fine. I don't buy it. Not with him. Guy's too mentally tough for that. I think he just screwed up and/or had a brain fart from fatigue. Very hard time assuming it was nervousness.

1984
02-12-2013, 08:39 PM
If I said, "Peyton Manning" would that result in an infraction and a thread lockdown? If so, I am not saying "Peyton Manning."

McKeyFan
02-12-2013, 08:43 PM
If he did that because he tightened up, fine. I don't buy it. Not with him. Guy's too mentally tough for that. I think he just screwed up and/or had a brain fart from fatigue. Very hard time assuming it was nervousness.

I'm willing to consider that.

Sandman21
02-14-2013, 08:12 PM
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/408/108/72445043_display_image.jpg?1285202177