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The Future
02-08-2013, 10:02 PM
No, this isn't an overreaction thread after the loss to Toronto in overtime.

This guy is stealing money LITERALLY and is most likely the worst offensive center in the league.

The Pacers have to find someway to get off this contract ASAP, might be one of the worst contracts in the league as we speak.

9.9 PPG and 8.3 REB per game on 41.5% shooting is HORRENDOUS.

Max contract???

Unbelievable.

Nuntius
02-08-2013, 10:04 PM
No, this isn't an overreaction at all.

Also, wrong board?

BornReady
02-08-2013, 10:14 PM
I know I'm knee jerking, but I've been pretty disappointed in Hibbert's play lately (this season) and to be honest, I wouldn't mid too much right now if he were traded.

ejwallace
02-08-2013, 10:14 PM
While we're at it, maybe would could dump West and George too....

PacersRule
02-08-2013, 10:22 PM
Watching Hibbert fall to the floor after every contact and mess up his teammate's amazing passes by missing bunnies makes me wanna crack my head open. I'm really hoping that the return of Granger can help get Hibbert going.

Ace E.Anderson
02-08-2013, 10:45 PM
You can't average double figures and be the worst offensive anything.

As disappointing as he's been, he's only avg 3 points less than last year.

If you're looking for big offensive stats, you're unrealistic. He's a key to our defense and rebounding being tops in the league.

If we trades him, I wouldn't be too heartbroken, but I bet area 55 would.

Also, where was this after last game where he dominated? Lol

tadscout
02-08-2013, 11:00 PM
Give me a break, he is the anchor to the best defense in the league. He blocked 5 shots and challenged/deterred many more than that... Stats can't paint the whole picture when it comes to a guy that does so much for our defense (or if you do want a stat, he's near the top of the league in defensive win shares).

Nights like this when the Raptors are taking allot of jump shots when he is in there (b/c he's preventing drives) the defensive rebounds are going to be long... hmm wonder why PG had 14 rebounds.......

Heisenberg
02-08-2013, 11:05 PM
That's not what literally means.

ColeTheMole
02-08-2013, 11:13 PM
Let's look at some big man salaries for this year.

Dwight Howard 19.2
Pau Gasol 19.0
Chris Bosh 17.5
Marc Gasol 13.9
Brook Lopez 13.7
Roy Hibbert 13.7
Tyson Chandler 13.6
Emeka Okafor 13.5
Andrew Bogut 13.1
Nene Hilario 13.0

He looks just about right to me. Big men get paid. Face it.

Pacer Fan
02-08-2013, 11:14 PM
There is a reason he got 3 rebounds tonight, cause a rookie (for the most part) was abusing him and he done nothing to fight back. Of course if he did, I'm sure the refs would've had something to say about it, so It's a moot point really.

Hibbert needs to get more aggressive, but I'm ok with his play right now, overall. He is to big to be out there playing out of his mind cause he will just end up hurting himself. He just needs to know he has to step it up come playoffs and I think he will. JMO

cgg
02-08-2013, 11:16 PM
He got 3 rebounds because he was contesting every shot, so he wasn't in position.

billbradley
02-08-2013, 11:22 PM
If only we had Kaman . . .

Pacer Fan
02-08-2013, 11:31 PM
He got 3 rebounds because he was contesting every shot, so he wasn't in position.

He was contesting all those jump shots? Hmm, we must have been watching different games or something.

Anthem
02-08-2013, 11:32 PM
That's not what literally means.
:bowdown:

Miller_time04
02-08-2013, 11:33 PM
He's fine. The offense will come. He's coming off an injury. And he's a big reason why we have the best D in the league. Give it time.

Merz
02-08-2013, 11:40 PM
I realize that he is the anchor to the D and an all around good guy...but I really can't blame anyone for feeling beyond disappointed with him at times.

Doddage
02-08-2013, 11:42 PM
Without Roy Hibbert, we are not 31-20, first in the Central Division, and third best in the East.

rock747
02-08-2013, 11:46 PM
I don't necessarily think we need Roy to score all the time. Some of his misses and dropped passes are frustrating, but we have other guys on the floor that do a lot more than they did last year. Roy makes a difference out there and the thing I like best is I know he always is giving maximum effort. As a fan, it's a lot easier to be ok with a guy struggling if you know he is working hard.

gummy
02-09-2013, 12:07 AM
Nope. Let's not.

The Future
02-09-2013, 12:09 AM
That's not what literally means.

Clearly your expectations are quite low for the teams highest paid player.

Heisenberg
02-09-2013, 12:18 AM
Clearly your expectations are quite low for the teams highest paid player.

Clearly I have a grasp of English.

dal9
02-09-2013, 12:31 AM
That's not what literally means.

I would say it is getting to be at least debatable in this case.

Hicks
02-09-2013, 12:38 AM
"No."

- Walsh and Pritchard.

vnzla81
02-09-2013, 12:41 AM
Hibbert is not going anywhere this thread is **^^^.

King Tuts Tomb
02-09-2013, 01:03 AM
I agree we need to trade Roy.

I'm thinking something along the lines of Roy for LeBron and Wade. Let me know what you think and we can workshop this trade a little.

The Future
02-09-2013, 01:46 AM
Clearly I have a grasp of English.
Such a child, trying to insult a person on a forum.

Clearly you lack knowledge about the game of basketball since your posts lack any kind of depth.

Now clean your glasses and realize that Hibbert is a liability to this team.

cdash
02-09-2013, 01:53 AM
Such a child, trying to insult a person on a forum.

Clearly you lack knowledge about the game of basketball since your posts lack any kind of depth.

Now clean your glasses and realize that Hibbert is a liability to this team.

You typed three sentences there. The first sentence makes the second two incredibly hypocritical. Also, he was right.

As for the OT--no. Roy's offense has been brutal this year, but defensively he is the anchor for this team. You know, the best defensive team in the NBA? Roy is a huge part of this team's success. I have zero desire to trade him, struggling or not.

The Future
02-09-2013, 02:09 AM
You typed three sentences there. The first sentence makes the second two incredibly hypocritical. Also, he was right.

As for the OT--no. Roy's offense has been brutal this year, but defensively he is the anchor for this team. You know, the best defensive team in the NBA? Roy is a huge part of this team's success. I have zero desire to trade him, struggling or not.

I'm sorry to hear you guys were English majors!

And actually, although Hibberts blocks have been significant for us, his pick and roll defense has been very poor this year. He isn't worth his contract by many millions.

dal9
02-09-2013, 02:10 AM
^ its "you guy's were English majors"

Heisenberg
02-09-2013, 02:32 AM
Such a child, trying to insult a person on a forum.

Clearly you lack knowledge about the game of basketball since your posts lack any kind of depth.

Now clean your glasses and realize that Hibbert is a liability to this team.Firstly, stop being so thin skinned, people disagree sometimes on the internet. Anyway, Roy's been dreadful on offense. That's clear to anyone, spectacles or not (even though only English majors wear glasses, obviously). It's past the point of a slump, he's just bad offensively, for whatever reason. He's also a fringe DPOY candidate. I love West, and he's playing the best defense of his life this year, but it's still not any better than average. But he puts up points so he's awesome and Roy sucks.

I also wish people'd put some context to "max contract." His "max contract" isn't the same as Joe Johnson, or Amare Stoudemire, or Deron Williams, or Elton Brand. I'd easily take Roy over all those players, and his contract's smaller.

presto123
02-09-2013, 03:14 AM
I wish we could sub Roy out after every defensive stop. LOL!! He has been great on the defensive end but it almost seems every time he throws up a shot on the offensive end it's a wasted possession. Some of the shots he throws up have no chance of going in. He is what he is I guess. I don't ever see him being an offensive juggernaut. Good thing a big part of this team's identity is defense.

yoadknux
02-09-2013, 05:24 AM
Roy's been disappointing this season. Defensive anchor or not, he's hardly a scoring threat in the paint with his combination of 41% shooting & 2 TO's for his low usage rate. He's also not the rebounder he should be and we all know it.

Some guy here posted that big guys get paid. True. How many of these big guys have a long term deal AND shoot 41% from the field? I guess 0. I even doubt the lowest FG% guy on that list (whoever that is) shoots below 46%.

A defensive anchor that shoots 40% from the field shouldn't be the highest paid player on your team. His contract is pretty much the reason we're going to have to dump Granger, West, Hill or George at some point.

Anyway, I am against trading him for now because he has a pathetic bang for buck value which means we're gonna get crap for him. I'd rather play him and hope that at some point (hopefully next year) he'll have some fluke shooting streak that will boost his trade value and then we could get some serious offers.

Question though, who do you expect to get for him?

MvPlumlee
02-09-2013, 06:05 AM
Just because Hibbert makes Bargnani look like a tough mother****er and Valanciunas like the ROY doesn't mean he can't be a positive on the floor. He is +6 btw
That's just how our defense works and bigs who move well and shoot very well are allowed to take a lot of midrange jumpers.
Paul George "steals" a lot of his rebounds, but that shouldn't matter as long it's a Pacer. Pacers are a very good rebounding team in most games.
Yeah, his offense is awful, but we have to assume that a hardworking man like Roy should be able to find his offense back from last year.

That's said, I would love to have a center like Valanciunas on the Pacers.

D-BONE
02-09-2013, 07:29 AM
Love the rim protection & passing! Pretty much can't stand everything else.

I could care less about him being a part of the offense. But, I would like double - digit boards average and the ability to consistently finish offensive board put backs at the rim. His contract & top paid billing on our team would be much more palatable if he accomplish those things.

As it stands, can't imagine he's even being shopped. Whether or not I'd be disappointed if he were moved would totally depend on what we got in return.

Inca Street
02-09-2013, 07:34 AM
Surely you can't be serious


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0A5t5_O8hdA

PG24
02-09-2013, 07:36 AM
I'm glad someone else agrees with me. I was probably the only one saying not to re sign him.

BlueNGold
02-09-2013, 09:06 AM
He had an awfully nice hook-pass to West for a lay in. But generally, yes, his offense has been putrid.

But his defense remains very, very good. He's a very serious obstacle for guys trying to get to the rim and he makes our perimeter defense better too by allowing guys to press. He's good enough defensively to start on this team, even if his offense is bad.

But pull the crystal ball out. I believe Roy Hibbert will resolve his mental issues and you will find him kicking some *** in the future. You've already seen his roller coaster act and you know it's mental even though it appears physical. Just hang on. I've seen people struggle like this and they ultimately come out of it stronger than the rest of us.

Kemo
02-09-2013, 09:27 AM
This thread P!SSES ME OFF!!! ...

I personally think a moderator needs to delete this crap ... embarassing for me as a PD member to think that Big Roy could happen to open up PD in his browser and the first thing he sees is an "official trade roy hibbert thread"...

Your thoughtlessness disgust me ..

dohman
02-09-2013, 09:36 AM
No, this isn't an overreaction thread after the loss to Toronto in overtime.

This guy is stealing money LITERALLY and is most likely the worst offensive center in the league.

The Pacers have to find someway to get off this contract ASAP, might be one of the worst contracts in the league as we speak.

9.9 PPG and 8.3 REB per game on 41.5% shooting is HORRENDOUS.

Max contract???

Unbelievable.

That horrible center anchors the best defense in the nba. He allows PG to pressure the ball without fear of someone scoring at the rim. He allows David west to roam around the paint to deflect passes at will. Don't overvalue offense because its defense and grit that win championships.

He may be the worst offensive player int he league. I get that but also remember because of him you hold your opponents to a FG% less than what he is currently shooting.

He is the reason we are 3rd in the east.

Lets also look at this logically. If he is making 41 baskets out of 100 that means in 10 games he would make one more basket a game to get to 50% if he shot 10 shots a game. So you want to trade a former allstar and one of the best defensive players, shot blockers, and offensive rebounders in the league over 2PPG. Our average win margin is quite high and while I want roy to shoot 50% as much as everyone it is hardly worth saying trade him.

We will instantly turn into Dallas......

xIndyFan
02-09-2013, 09:43 AM
"No."

- Walsh and Pritchard.

I would guess that if you pressed TPTB at the Pacers the answer is NO, not now. We are at least a year away from having to decide whether to trade Roy or not. For a couple of reasons. First, the Pacers have decided to give this team, Hill, Paul, Danny, Lance, David and Roy, a chance to make a playoff run. So it's time to let the dice roll and see how good this team is when it has all the players on the court at the same time. Second, the Pacers don't need the money right now. Nor will they need the money next summer. The Pacers have the cap space to resign David West without going over the cap with or without trading Roy. So there is no need to get rid of him for pennies on the dollar just because he is a max player who is under performing.

Now this does not mean the Pacers would not be willing to listen to a trade for Roy. But it does mean the Pacers don't have to trade Roy unless they can trade him for a clearly better player. That is true of pretty much every player on the team. Pacers are willing to trade him [or anyone else] for LeBron James or Kevin Durant. So they are willing to trade. But absent a trade that is lopsided in the Pacers favor, there is no financial need to trade Roy until next year's trading deadline.

OlBlu
02-09-2013, 10:09 AM
No, this isn't an overreaction thread after the loss to Toronto in overtime.

This guy is stealing money LITERALLY and is most likely the worst offensive center in the league.

The Pacers have to find someway to get off this contract ASAP, might be one of the worst contracts in the league as we speak.

9.9 PPG and 8.3 REB per game on 41.5% shooting is HORRENDOUS.

Max contract???

Unbelievable.

The Pacers didn't start winning until Roy started playing. I don't care if he scores much at all. He clogs up the middle and he is a defensive force who changes the game. He just needs to defend, block shots and rebound for this team to win. If you trade him, fine another 7'2" center who can do what he does. Centers are always overpaid. Hibbert is not overpaid for a center and his not on a max contract. He got the max for what he could sign for at the time. Next time around, he will get a max contract if the Pacers keep winning......:cool: ...

3rdStrike
02-09-2013, 10:11 AM
He's fine. The offense will come. He's coming off an injury. And he's a big reason why we have the best D in the league. Give it time.

I'm sorry, but what are you basing this on? I ask because I've been hearing "the offense will come. Give it time" since, oh, the first week of the season. What's the basis for believing he's going to suddenly go from not being able to post up guards on a mismatch to scoring efficiently inside? What's the logic behind that?

It's not because he's going to get it, or he's equivalent to PG/David West. That's just completely nonsensical and not even giving effort to thought. The reason he won't get traded is his value is at its lowest in years. You don't sell this low on a player until his personality becomes a problem.

Since he's not going anywhere, they need to tell him when he's not 100% wide open (which he never is), either dunk or pass the damn ball until he learns another move. No more hook shots. They destroy the offense.

OlBlu
02-09-2013, 10:14 AM
I'm sorry, but what are you basing this on? I ask because I've been hearing "the offense will come. Give it time" since, oh, the first week of the season. What's the basis for believing he's going to suddenly go from not being able to post up guards on a mismatch to scoring efficiently inside? What's the logic behind that?

It's not because he's going to get it, or he's equivalent to PG/David West. That's just completely nonsensical and not even giving effort to thought. The reason he won't get traded is his value is at its lowest in years. You don't sell this low on a player until his personality becomes a problem.

Since he's not going anywhere, they need to tell him when he's not 100% wide open (which he never is), either dunk or pass the damn ball until he learns another move. No more hook shots. They destroy the offense.

This thread gets my vote as the most ignorant of the year........:cool: ...

Cousy47
02-09-2013, 10:24 AM
Pretty good official trade thread. Noticed there was not a trade for an actual player mentioned? A young Wilt, Shaq, Kareem? I'll bet we could trade him to the 76ers for Bynum right now. By this time next year Ian could be our starting Center, maybe not. Just who would you trade Roy for?

mrknowname
02-09-2013, 10:42 AM
you're not really going to get somebody better than him in a trade. he's one of the most well rounded big men in the league, although not elite at anything (except for shot blocking maybe). his lack of athleticism really limits him on both ends though

edit: one of the more underrated things about hibbert is his durability. how many games has he missed due to injury?

SIR-LANCE-ALOT
02-09-2013, 10:45 AM
they said the Hawks are willing to trade Josh Smith for a young Center......im just saying

SIR-LANCE-ALOT
02-09-2013, 10:47 AM
you're not really going to get somebody better than him in a trade. he's one of the most well rounded big men in the league, although not elite at anything (except for shot blocking maybe). his lack of athleticism really limits him on both ends though

edit: one of the more underrated things about hibbert is his durability. how many games has he missed due to injury?he doesnt play alot of minutes for him to get injured tho

SIR-LANCE-ALOT
02-09-2013, 10:49 AM
i dont think this thread is about Hibbert being a scrub, its just the expectations for him were so high, and with him being the top paid pacer right now, you would think u would get more out of him than this

diamonddave00
02-09-2013, 11:00 AM
Even in Roy's case I don't think expecting improvement on both ends of the court after signing a max deal is unreasonable. We are often told how hard he works in the off season- so what did he work on the last offseason?

His development curve seemed to suggest 14 ppg and 9 rpg not 10 and 8 with 41% shooting by a 7'2 center. As such after watching him sign a big contract and regress its very understandable Pacer fans are unhappy with Roy.

I rather doubt there would be a long line of teams forming to take on Roy's contract based on this season. As such we will have to hope he starts living up to it.

ejwallace
02-09-2013, 11:29 AM
Some guy here posted that big guys get paid. True. How many of these big guys have a long term deal AND shoot 41% from the field? I guess 0. I even doubt the lowest FG% guy on that list (whoever that is) shoots below 46%.

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/NotTawd/BigMen_zps954ffedc.jpg

J7F
02-09-2013, 11:47 AM
Clearly your expectations are quite low for the teams highest paid player.

I've been waiting for this thread since the day we announced signing him to the max... Congratulations! You're the winner!

Clearly you think inside the box...

First... People in general put too much emphasis on players salaries when determining their worth to a team... I understand it... But I think people go overboard with it... The agents and GMs determine salaries... Why blame a player and want him gone namely because they make a **** ton of money? Especially when you consider everything the player brings to your franchise...

Second... As has been stated and evidenced... Good big men DO NOT COME CHEAP... Notice I said good... Not great...

Third... I don't know what more you expect from a player making 13 million in the NBA... Superstars that dominate on both sides of the ball should fall between 15-20 mil IMO... Players who dominate one side of the ball should make between 10-15 mil IMO... And Roy Hibbert dominates on defense... He anchors one of the best defenses in recent history! He changes the game when he is on the floor... That is absolutely a mini-max player... Dwight Howard makes about 6 mil more per year than Roy... And he is currently anchoring one of the most disappointing defenses in recent history...

Fourth - Roy brings so much good PR to this team... I don't even need to explain this point... If you are a Pacers fan then you should already understand this massive chunk of what Roy Hibbert's 13 mil brings to this team...

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-09-2013, 12:44 PM
Right now Roy is worse on offense than Jeff Foster ever was. At least Foster could make putbacks and bunnies. I think you guys overrate his defense a little as well.

Hicks
02-09-2013, 12:50 PM
Right now Roy is worse on offense than Jeff Foster ever was. At least Foster could make putbacks and bunnies. I think you guys overrate his defense a little as well.

EVENTUALLY Jeff could make putbacks and bunnies. Certainly not for several years into his career, though. In fact, Jeff had a GOD AWFUL (worse than Roy) year in 2002-2003 where he shot freakin' 0.360 from the field FOR THE SEASON. 36% !

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jeff_foster/career_stats.html

Can you imagine how some people would be ripping him to shreds on here right now if that happened today? And we're not talking about a player who shot hook shots or tried to score in the low block, rarely took jumpers either; we're talking a garbage man type of center. That makes Roy look like Kareem.

Maybe that little historical nugget can put some of this crappy Roy stretch into perspective. It can get better, and it could be a lot worse.

ColeTheMole
02-09-2013, 12:57 PM
EVENTUALLY Jeff could make putbacks and bunnies. Certainly not for several years into his career, though. In fact, Jeff had a GOD AWFUL (worse than Roy) year in 2002-2003 where he shot freakin' 0.360 from the field FOR THE SEASON. 36% !


I agree with you in that I think a lot of the putbacks and bunnies are not purely making the shot, but KNOWING which shot to shoot (hook, lay-in, dunk, or a kick out). Roy routinely shoots the wrong kind of shot as evidenced by his running floater the other game that hit the middle of the backboard and that contributes to his bad shooting percentage as much as anything.

So hopefully Roy gets wise like Jeff and learns when to shoot what shot.

BornReady
02-09-2013, 01:20 PM
EVENTUALLY Jeff could make putbacks and bunnies. Certainly not for several years into his career, though. In fact, Jeff had a GOD AWFUL (worse than Roy) year in 2002-2003 where he shot freakin' 0.360 from the field FOR THE SEASON. 36% !

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jeff_foster/career_stats.html

Can you imagine how some people would be ripping him to shreds on here right now if that happened today? And we're not talking about a player who shot hook shots or tried to score in the low block, rarely took jumpers either; we're talking a garbage man type of center. That makes Roy look like Kareem.

Maybe that little historical nugget can put some of this crappy Roy stretch into perspective. It can get better, and it could be a lot worse.

My issue with this is that I don't think anybody had the same expectations from Foster as we do from Roy (not just as a fan, but also from the Pacers as an organization.) Nobody goes out there expecting Foster to be much of an offensive factor, but I do expect Roy to be able make many of these missed shots that should really be routine for him.

For me, Roy seems like a tease right now because he showed what he was capable of in the playoffs last year, and has not been able to do that consistently this season.

For the record, I hope I'm very wrong about Roy and I hope he turns it around. I'd gladly admit to being wrong.

dal9
02-09-2013, 01:24 PM
My issue with this is that I don't think anybody had the same expectations from Foster as we do from Roy (not just as a fan, but also from the Pacers as an organization.) Nobody goes out there expecting Foster to be much of an offensive factor, but I do expect Roy to be able make many of these missed shots that should really be routine for him.

For me, Roy seems like a tease right now because he showed what he was capable of in the playoffs last year, and has not been able to do that consistently this season.

For the record, I hope I'm very wrong about Roy and I hope he turns it around. I'd gladly admit to being wrong.

Foster must have shot a LOT less frequently too..

yoadknux
02-09-2013, 01:59 PM
Can you imagine how some people would be ripping him to shreds on here right now if that happened today? And we're not talking about a player who shot hook shots or tried to score in the low block, rarely took jumpers either; we're talking a garbage man type of center. That makes Roy look like Kareem.

Maybe that little historical nugget can put some of this crappy Roy stretch into perspective. It can get better, and it could be a lot worse.
Another fun historical nugget: Jeff Foster made a total of $50,070,075 dollars in his NBA career, Which is less than Hibbert's current $58.1m contract...

People are unhappy with the fact that our highest paid player is putting extremely bad numbers compared to the rest of the league and compared to what he had last year, and rightfully so...

OlBlu
02-09-2013, 02:26 PM
Another fun historical nugget: Jeff Foster made a total of $50,070,075 dollars in his NBA career, Which is less than Hibbert's current $58.1m contract...

People are unhappy with the fact that our highest paid player is putting extremely bad numbers compared to the rest of the league and compared to what he had last year, and rightfully so...

Some people just are not very bright and they just don't understand that Roy is the anchor to what is, perhaps, the best defense in the league. That is worth a lot of money in my book......:cool: ...

dal9
02-09-2013, 02:56 PM
What's Defensive points per possession with Hibbert versus Mahimi?

OlBlu
02-09-2013, 03:01 PM
Some people just are not very bright and they just don't understand that Roy is the anchor to what is, perhaps, the best defense in the league. That is worth a lot of money in my book......:cool: ...

Jeff was a lifelong backup and that was all that he was. He was paid handsomely for being a backup...:cool: ...

rabid
02-09-2013, 03:22 PM
I'm sorry, but what are you basing this on? I ask because I've been hearing "the offense will come. Give it time" since, oh, the first week of the season. What's the basis for believing he's going to suddenly go from not being able to post up guards on a mismatch to scoring efficiently inside? What's the logic behind that?

Because he was able to do it most of last season?

BlueNGold
02-09-2013, 03:31 PM
Some people just are not very bright and they just don't understand that Roy is the anchor to what is, perhaps, the best defense in the league. That is worth a lot of money in my book......:cool: ...

Paul and Roy are why the defense is so good. The other guys are good defenders as well, but clearly without Roy in the middle our defense would not be the same. He does seriously clog the lane. Ian is actually pretty good too.

CJ Jones
02-09-2013, 03:44 PM
What's Defensive points per possession with Hibbert versus Mahimi?

3.5 point difference per 100 possessions.

I too think Roy's D can be overrated here. He's great at protecting the rim, but he doesn't help on screen and rolls, and his man more often than not outplays him. I don't want to trade him yet, but I can't say I'd be disappointed if we did as long as we we're able to get some value back for him.

OlBlu
02-09-2013, 04:07 PM
3.5 point difference per 100 possessions.

I too think Roy's D can be overrated here. He's great at protecting the rim, but he doesn't help on screen and rolls, and his man more often than not outplays him. I don't want to trade him yet, but I can't say I'd be disappointed if we did as long as we we're able to get some value back for him.

The only thing that would make any sense would be to trade him for a center. Do you think you can set up a package and land Dwight Howard? I don't. Perhaps on of the Lopez twins? Nah, that ain't going to happen either. Just what other center do you think you can get for him and feel free to add Granger if you need to do so. Boston might jump on a deal of Garnet for Hibbert...... I don't think Garnet would come to the Pacers....:cool: ...

Naptown_Seth
02-09-2013, 05:11 PM
Overrated defense? Who the F was blocking those Raptor shots late in the game?


Roy is struggling on offense, though he's been slightly better lately.

Consider this my Official Boycott of the trade Roy thread post. We got a long way to go before that deal is a bust. Prior history, work ethic and quality of person buy a ton of leeway in my book, way more than he's used up so far.

presto123
02-09-2013, 05:16 PM
Give me a break whoever commented that Roy might open up PD and see this thread. When you make a max contract and play the way he has this year you deserve any criticism that might come your way. It would be far worse in some of the big markets. If the Pacers record was bad right now Roy would be getting hammered.

I like Roy and don't want to trade him BTW.

diamonddave00
02-09-2013, 05:19 PM
Roy was manhandled by the 20 year old Valanciunas last night. Where was he at the end when Johnson grabbed all those rebounds for the last 3 baskets in regulation and the first basket in ot? Roy grabbed all of 3 rebounds while Valanciunas and Johnson both grabbed 14.

Hell Paul George had 14 boards while Roy grabbed 3 oh wait maybe Paul was being a Troy Murphy and stealing rebounds from Roy.

Naptown_Seth
02-09-2013, 05:19 PM
Also I'm pretty sure Roy is NOT "literally" stealing money from anyone. What, is he cracking safes in the Fieldhouse, jumping the counter at Chase, jacking the clerk at the downtown Speedway?

He is literally receiving a negotiated salary that at least one other team was willing to pay him. He's figuratively stealing money in your opinion. And if you left off the "figuratively" we'd all know what you meant anyway.

But what's good hyperbole in 2013 without a random "literally" thrown in for good measure.

Heisenberg
02-09-2013, 05:24 PM
Give me a break whoever commented that Roy might open up PD and see this thread. When you make a max contract and play the way he has this year you deserve any criticism that might come your way. It would be far worse in some of the big markets. If the Pacers record was bad right now Roy would be getting hammered.

I like Roy and don't want to trade him BTW.
Of course he'd be getting hammered. But he's a big reason the record isn't bad.

Naptown_Seth
02-09-2013, 05:25 PM
Roy was manhandled by the 20 year old Valanciunas last night. Where was he at the end when Johnson grabbed all those rebounds for the last 3 baskets in regulation and the first basket in ot? Roy grabbed all of 3 rebounds while Valanciunas and Johnson both grabbed 14.

Hell Paul George had 14 boards while Roy grabbed 3 oh wait maybe Paul was being a Troy Murphy and stealing rebounds from Roy.
I won't argue that point. I think you and I discussed the whole "the next time he wins a 50/50 ball will be the first" issue last week, and it's obviously true. He's not been great at fighting guys above the rim for the ball, though he hits the floor with the best of them.

I'm not really defending his struggles at all, I'm just saying that he's got of list of reasons for me to give him plenty of leeway on the issue. He's already gone up and down with what appeared to be mental blocks in the past, just as he's been a pretty tough offensive player in the past too. He put Dwight in foul trouble a couple of years ago and had the BiLF thinking he was the next sliced bread. Then a few weeks later he's back to struggling, up and down all the time. That's part of Roy, the struggle to feel confidence and toughness in his identity in a consistent manner.

He works as hard as anyone, but it seems like he has to overcome a gut instinct when it comes to blatant toughness.

vnzla81
02-09-2013, 05:31 PM
Ok so I'm one of the people that think this thread is ridiculous but I can tell you that if you are using the one time Roy outplayed Howard to make a point and prove that he is great I don't think you are making a good argument.

BlueNGold
02-09-2013, 05:42 PM
If his offense met our expectations, he would be the best big man in the east if not the entire NBA. I count myself lucky that Troy Murphy isn't the one patrolling the paint on D anymore.

Randolph_HorseLips
02-09-2013, 06:06 PM
I can completely understand why people are frustrated with Hibbert. His 41 or 42% field-goal percentage is downright awful for a guy with his type of game.

Having said this, for me personally he gets a mini-pass because of what he's already proven. Let's not forget he was an All-Star last year. Offensively, maybe this is simply a classic "down year". Just like David West's season last year, coming off injury.

Also, someone put it well earlier in this thread... he anchors our great defense. If there was a way to measure the value of combined defense among 3 players, then the trio of Hibbert, West, and Paul George would be off-the-charts good. I'm talking A++ stuff. Hibbert DOES change the game. Even when he's not blocking shots, he's altering things. If it was just West inside, maybe teams would be more aggressive. But West AND Hibbert AND George? Not a chance.

He does need to improve offensively, though.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Hibbert has the "big oaf" factor going on. When he does something clumsy or awkward, it makes him appear foolish and unvaluable to the eye.

Hicks
02-09-2013, 06:10 PM
*note, I'm using the pronoun 'You' below to refer to the general you, not any one person*

I start to tune out real quick with the hand wringing over contracts. It's not Roy's fault, or Roy's problem, that he gets paid more money than YOU think he deserves. He doesn't owe you a damn thing in that department. That money was decided by the NBA, his agent, and at least two NBA teams, all of which collectively resulted in the amount he was able to sign for.

The guy busted his *** in the gym, developed his game, and became a good center who even managed to sneak onto an all-star team. After that, it was out of his hands regarding money.

Those checks are set in stone, so this drum beat about his salary amounts to crying over spilled milk and IMO needs to stop.

I could understand if it were YOUR money, but it's not, so just give it a rest already. It may as well be monopoly money for as much as it has anything specifically to do with any of you.

I can understand being bummed because he's not meeting expectations, though. Of course, what those expectations are varies from fan to fan, so which one's set of expectations does he have to attach himself to, exactly, anyway?

If I felt like he was dogging it, had a crappy attitude, wasn't trying, whatever, then yeah I could get behind anger or venting about it. But for God's sake is there anyone less likely to be doing that than Roy freakin' Hibbert? I don't think so.

So he's struggling, yes. He's also more than likely doing anything/everything he can to fix it, and it's just not working much at all as of this point. So given that likelihood, how about instead of busting his chops you give him some positive support to try to help him through a tough time on the floor? His gain is your gain, and beating him up about it won't solve ****.

tora tora
02-09-2013, 06:13 PM
I just wish he'd work on his balance, sick of him falling on his *** 20 times a game...

Hicks
02-09-2013, 06:27 PM
I just wish he'd work on his balance, sick of him falling on his *** 20 times a game...

I fear that's something out of his control after a certain point: Bad genetics. Oh, those genes did him several favors in other areas, but the guy is about as balanced and coordinated as a newborn giraffe. You should hear some of the stories about how physically pathetic he was back in high school and early on in college. It's a miracle he's come as far as he already has in that department. I fear he's hit his ceiling in this department. He's better off working on his decision making so that he can minimize the mistakes caused by his clumsiness, I think. Work with it instead of trying (and failing) to fix it.

Someone was saying it can help to keep ones balance if one initiates contact in the post rather than letting the defender come and whack into you. Maybe he needs to try more of that, for starters. Maybe that will help keep his upper body upright and allow him to finish more. Otherwise, just working strictly within the framework his body allows will go a ways in correcting his play in the long run, I think.

OlBlu
02-09-2013, 06:27 PM
Everyone complaining about Hibbert should go back and look at posts when he was drafted and many people thought he was a joke who couldn't jump, couldn't run the floor and was incredibly slow. Many complained it was a wasted draft pick. They failed to examine Hibbert's work ethic and how he has made himself a very good center. In the off season, I am sure he will work on his post moves with some famous big from the past and he will come back better on the offensive side of the ball next year. It is hard to make big changes mid-year without disrupting something else. I think he will make all star teams in the future because other teams know what he means to the Pacers and he will get votes from them........:cool: ...

vincognito
02-09-2013, 06:28 PM
Those checks are set in stone, so this drum beat about his salary amounts to crying over spilled milk and IMO needs to stop.
Amnesty is an option

Hicks
02-09-2013, 06:37 PM
Amnesty is an option

Just about like how suicide is a way out of a blind date.....

granger4mvp
02-09-2013, 06:38 PM
*note, I'm using the pronoun 'You' below to refer to the general you, not any one person*

I start to tune out real quick with the hand wringing over contracts. It's not Roy's fault, or Roy's problem, that he gets paid more money than YOU think he deserves. He doesn't owe you a damn thing in that department. That money was decided by the NBA, his agent, and at least two NBA teams, all of which collectively resulted in the amount he was able to sign for.

The guy busted his *** in the gym, developed his game, and became a good center who even managed to sneak onto an all-star team. After that, it was out of his hands regarding money.

Those checks are set in stone, so this drum beat about his salary amounts to crying over spilled milk and IMO needs to stop.

I could understand if it were YOUR money, but it's not, so just give it a rest already. It may as well be monopoly money for as much as it has anything specifically to do with any of you.

I can understand being bummed because he's not meeting expectations, though. Of course, what those expectations are varies from fan to fan, so which one's set of expectations does he have to attach himself to, exactly, anyway?

If I felt like he was dogging it, had a crappy attitude, wasn't trying, whatever, then yeah I could get behind anger or venting about it. But for God's sake is there anyone less likely to be doing that than Roy freakin' Hibbert? I don't think so.

So he's struggling, yes. He's also more than likely doing anything/everything he can to fix it, and it's just not working much at all as of this point. So given that likelihood, how about instead of busting his chops you give him some positive support to try to help him through a tough time on the floor? His gain is your gain, and beating him up about it won't solve ****.

Well said

pacer4ever
02-09-2013, 06:43 PM
Amnesty is an option

no it's not even if it was allowed by the rules it wouldn't be an option.


He cant be amnestied only players who signed their deal before the new CBA who are still with their current team are eligible.

tadscout
02-09-2013, 06:45 PM
*note, I'm using the pronoun 'You' below to refer to the general you, not any one person*

I start to tune out real quick with the hand wringing over contracts. It's not Roy's fault, or Roy's problem, that he gets paid more money than YOU think he deserves. He doesn't owe you a damn thing in that department. That money was decided by the NBA, his agent, and at least two NBA teams, all of which collectively resulted in the amount he was able to sign for.

The guy busted his *** in the gym, developed his game, and became a good center who even managed to sneak onto an all-star team. After that, it was out of his hands regarding money.

Those checks are set in stone, so this drum beat about his salary amounts to crying over spilled milk and IMO needs to stop.

I could understand if it were YOUR money, but it's not, so just give it a rest already. It may as well be monopoly money for as much as it has anything specifically to do with any of you.

I can understand being bummed because he's not meeting expectations, though. Of course, what those expectations are varies from fan to fan, so which one's set of expectations does he have to attach himself to, exactly, anyway?

If I felt like he was dogging it, had a crappy attitude, wasn't trying, whatever, then yeah I could get behind anger or venting about it. But for God's sake is there anyone less likely to be doing that than Roy freakin' Hibbert? I don't think so.

So he's struggling, yes. He's also more than likely doing anything/everything he can to fix it, and it's just not working much at all as of this point. So given that likelihood, how about instead of busting his chops you give him some positive support to try to help him through a tough time on the floor? His gain is your gain, and beating him up about it won't solve ****.

:kegboypreachit::amen:

OlBlu
02-09-2013, 06:48 PM
Just about like how suicide is a way out of a blind date.....

I had a blind date once. Well, that isn't quite true, she could see a little out of one eye......:cool: ...

Hicks
02-09-2013, 06:51 PM
no it's not even if it was allowed by the rules it wouldn't be an option.


He cant be amnestied only players who signed their deal before the new CBA who are still with their current team are eligible.

Speaking of which, what is the new wrinkle this CBA added with regards to getting rid of contracts early? Not amensty, but the other one. Something like if it were a 4 year deal you could pay it over 8 years or something like that?

Naptown_Seth
02-09-2013, 06:55 PM
If his offense met our expectations, he would be the best big man in the east if not the entire NBA. I count myself lucky that Troy Murphy isn't the one patrolling the paint on D anymore.

You say that like his feet ever entered the defensive paint. If by "patrol" you mean "escort people to the paint like a doorman", then I'm with you. Dude would crush in the Seville Tauromachia league. Sometimes I think he actually blocked other Pacers from coming to stop his man. Naturally helpful I suppose.

pacer4ever
02-09-2013, 07:00 PM
Speaking of which, what is the new wrinkle this CBA added with regards to getting rid of contracts early? Not amensty, but the other one. Something like if it were a 4 year deal you could pay it over 8 years or something like that?

It's know it's called the stretch provision don't know exactly how it works though.

Google it and came up with this


EDIT: http://www.hoopsworld.com/cba-scenarios-the-stretch-clause/

dal9
02-09-2013, 07:14 PM
3.5 point difference per 100 possessions.

I too think Roy's D can be overrated here. He's great at protecting the rim, but he doesn't help on screen and rolls, and his man more often than not outplays him. I don't want to trade him yet, but I can't say I'd be disappointed if we did as long as we we're able to get some value back for him.

I would argue that that is not great. Especially since Hibbert gets Paul George and Hill with him, while Ian usually gets DJ and Sweet Gerald Greene. (Though granted, Mahimi also goes against backups more often).

About this "anchoring the amazing D stuff..." not sure how much of it is Hibbert per se. Not saying that it is the same thing, but you could say "Derrick McKey held down the starting SF spot on some offensive juggernauts" too...

Nuntius
02-09-2013, 07:21 PM
That's said, I would love to have a center like Valanciunas on the Pacers.

Everyone would love a guy like Valanciunas on their team. He will easily be a double-double machine.

Hicks
02-09-2013, 07:24 PM
Here we go with regards to the Stretch provision:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/CBA-111128/how-new-nba-deal-compares-last-one
By Larry Coon



• 2011 CBA: The player's remaining salary and his cap hit may be stretched across twice the number of seasons remaining on the contract, plus one (for example, the salary and cap hit for a player waived with two seasons remaining may be stretched across five seasons). This is entirely at the team's discretion, but it applies only to contracts signed under the 2011 CBA.

• Who benefits? Teams with bad contracts. For example, if a team has an underperforming player with one season remaining at $12 million, the team can waive him and stretch his salary across three seasons at $4 million per season. This will help with cash flow and provide $8 million in cap relief for the current season.

Roy has 3 more years on this contract to go as of this June/July.

If we used this on his contract (something I do NOT advocate), we would be paying for his salary the next seven seasons. After this season, Roy will still be owed about $44.7m. On average, that would result in about $6.4m per year from '13-'14 through '19-'20.

cgg
02-09-2013, 07:24 PM
I think believing he will get back to his career averages makes more sense then thinking he just magically became much worse on offense for no reason.

Nuntius
02-09-2013, 07:42 PM
I just know one thing. This thread is in no way official.

Trader Joe
02-09-2013, 08:33 PM
You guys who get upset over Roy's deal crack me up. If your boss comes into your office on Monday and offers you more than your worth are you going to tell him no? Are you going to say "Can't do that boss I would be literally (LOL) stealing money from you"

**** no you wouldn't.

So shut your damn pie holes about Roy's deal, if you think he's overpaid take it up with the front office not with the damn player you dinguses.

Is Roy overpaid? Maybe I don't know, but he's certainly not as overpaid as some other big men in the NBA right now check out the Lake show on a nightly basis if you need proof. But I do know that if he's "overpaid" or not all Roy did was get himself a good deal and I can't begrudge any human for doing that because every single sucker in this thread would do the exact same thing.

That's all I have to say about this absurd thread that takes an asinine premise (that Roy is somehow at fault for being paid his fair market value) and runs wild with it. If you want to be upset about how Roy is playing, fine, but you'll look a whole lot more mature about it if you leave his contract out of it. Murphy never bothered me so much how much he was paid, he upset because he was a lazy *** big man. Roy at least is a tremendous defender. Elite even.

vnzla81
02-09-2013, 08:51 PM
give him some positive support to try to help him through a tough time on the floor

I would like to know how are you going to give him positive support? through twitter? I didn't know this was called "Dr Phill digest"


Both sides are going all crazy on this thread lol

Justin Tyme
02-09-2013, 10:17 PM
I'm sorry, but what are you basing this on? I ask because I've been hearing "the offense will come. Give it time" since, oh, the first week of the season. What's the basis for believing he's going to suddenly go from not being able to post up guards on a mismatch to scoring efficiently inside? What's the logic behind that?

Logical questions demand logical answers. Just don't hold your breath waiting for those answers.

Justin Tyme
02-09-2013, 10:29 PM
i dont think this thread is about Hibbert being a scrub, its just the expectations for him were so high, and with him being the top paid pacer right now, you would think u would get more out of him than this


Bingo, we have a winner.

Justin Tyme
02-09-2013, 10:35 PM
Right now Roy is worse on offense than Jeff Foster ever was.

At least Foster could make putbacks and bunnies.

I think you guys overrate his defense a little as well.


LOL!! Foster missed more bunnies than Elmer Fudd did during rabbit season. That comment won't make your point.

Peck
02-09-2013, 10:47 PM
I've asked this before & I'll ask it again. Why has Roy almost exclusively gone to using some form of hook shot whenever he is within 10' of the basket? Honestly it's not a natural shot and he rushes it to much and is very inconsistent when he releases the shot.

I mean I understand it is almost impossible to block that shot but honestly there are times I just wish he'd use both hands and take a better shot. I know everybody wants him to dunk & yes I would like that as well but he's just not going to be able to do that all of the time.

Has anyone heard as to why he shoots like this all of the time?

Derek2k3
02-09-2013, 10:50 PM
no it's not even if it was allowed by the rules it wouldn't be an option.


He cant be amnestied only players who signed their deal before the new CBA who are still with their current team are eligible.

Not to mention the fact that the Pacers used their amnesty on Posey.

Nuntius
02-10-2013, 03:46 AM
What's the basis for believing he's going to suddenly go from not being able to post up guards on a mismatch to scoring efficiently inside? What's the logic behind that?



Logical questions demand logical answers. Just don't hold your breath waiting for those answers.

Want a logical answer?

Here you are:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2012/ (11-12 season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2011/ (10-11 season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2010/ (09-10 season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2009/ (08-09 season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2013/ (12-13 season)

Those are Roy Hibbert's shot charts for every single year of his NBA career.

Problem #1: He is shooting below 50% at rim for the first time in his career.

Let's see how he shot at rim in his previous seasons:

08-09: 51.2% (104-203)

09-10: 60.9% (181-297)

10-11: 65.1% (181-278)

11-12: 57.5% (161-280)

He is shooting 47% (94-200) from this area this season. That's a career low by 4.2%. That's 10.5% lower than what he shot last year from that same area.

Problem #2: He is shooting below 40% from 3 to 10 feet for the second time in his career. It's a career low as well.

Let's see how he shot from 3 to 10 feet in his previous seasons:

08-09: 44.6% (66-148)

09-10: 45.1% (124-275)

10-11: 39.7% (158-398)

11-12: 50.3% (173-344)

He is shooting 37.7% (81-225) from this area this season. That's a career low by 2%. That's also 12.6% lower than what he shot last year from that same area.

Problem #3: He is shooting a career low in lay-ups as well.

Hibbert's FG% in lay-ups over the previous seasons:

08-09: 41% (59-144) [36 of those, that is 61%, were assisted]

09-10: 53.3% (114-214) [69 of those, that is 60.5%, were assisted]

10-11: 54.4% (87-160) [51 of those, that is 58.6%, were assisted]

11-12: 56.2% (95-169) [45 of those, that is 47.4%, were assisted]

He is shooting 40.4% (40-99) this season. That's a career low by 0.6%. That's 15.8% lower than what he shot last year. Also, only 15 of his lay-ups are assisted. That means that only 37.5% of his lay-ups were assisted. That's 9.9% lower than his career low and 21.1% lower than his previous career low.

Should we expect from Hibbert to get by his man and create a lay-up for himself? No, we shouldn't. We should expect him to create a hook shot for himself. A hook shot that he still shoots on a 54.3% (75-138) clip. A hook shot that is assisted on a higher rate (43 of his 75 makes are assisted, that is 57.3%) than his lay-ups for some reason.

Bonus observation: Roy is rebounding more this season on the offensive end. That results in more tip-ins. Let's check his offensive rebounding numbers first and his tip-ins second.

Roy's offensive rebounding totals:

08-09: 115 (70 games) [42 games as a starter but rookie season so not a whole lot of minutes]

09-10: 177 (81 games) [69 games as a starter]

10-11: 182 (81 games) [started all but 1 game]

11-12: 213 (65 games) [lock-out season]

12-13: 192 (51 games)

So, in 51 games he has already grabbed more offensive boards than the 10-11 and 09-10 seasons in which he played 81 games. Want to do a comparison in minutes? He played 2.244 minutes in 10-11 and 2.035 minutes in 09-10. He has played 1.461 minutes so far and he has already grabbed more offensive boards than 10-11 and 09-10 (he has also blocked 12 more shots than 11-12, 5 more shots than 09-10 and 6 less than 10-11).



Along with his offensive rebounds, his tip-in attempts have increased as well. Let's start with checking his attempts in every season so far:

08-09: 25

09-10: 30

10-11: 42

11-12: 59

12-13: 73

I already posted the games and minutes above. So, in only 51 games and 1.461 minutes Roy has surpassed his career high in tip-ins by 14.

He has attempted 73 tip-ins out of 192 offensive rebounds. That means that 38% of his offensive rebounds result into tip-ins.

In fact, Hibbert's 73 tip-in attempts are more than those of Marc Gasol (24) and Tyson Chandler (43) combined!

And Tyson Chandler has grabbed more offensive rebounds than Hibbert (215, to be precise).

Now, let's see his shooting percentage in those tip-ins over the years:

08-09: 52% (13-25)

09-10: 50% (15-30)

10-11: 40.5% (17-42)

11-12: 40.7% (24-59)

12-13: 37% (27-73)

So, he is shooting a career low in tip-ins as well. But Hibbert gets his tip-ins exploiting his length and those shot attempts are usually wild due to being heavily contested and mostly off-balance.

Should we fault him for the mised tip-ins? Not so much. Why? Because we wouldn't get those shots if it wasn't for Hibbert rebounding the initial miss in the first place. But a coach could instruct him to reduce the amout of tip-ins and either kick the ball out or gather first and then attempt to finish (possibly earning a foul) because it is hurting his FG%. We all know that FG% is what matters in a Center, [i]right?

What would happen if we were to exclude those tip-in attempts from his overall shooting in each season?

Let's take a look:

08-09: He was 47.1% with 198-420. If we were to exclude his tip-ins (13-25), he would be 185-395. So, he would shoot 46.8%.

09-10: He was 49.5% (49.48% to be precise) with 387-782. If we were to exclude his tip-ins (15-30), he would be 372-752. So, he would shoot 49.5% (49.46 to be precise).

10-11: He was 46.1% with 410-890. If we were to exclude his tip-ins (17-42), he would be 393-848. So, he would shoot 46.3%.

11-12: He was 49.7% with 332-668 (note that he went 52-104 for 50% in the playoffs last year). If we were to exclude his tip-ins (24-59), he would be 308-609. So, he would shoot 50.5%.

12-13: He is 41.6% with 215-517. If we were to exclude his tip-ins (27-73), he would be 188-444. So, he would shoot 42.3%.

He would still shoot horrible but one cannot dispute that his tip-ins negatively influence his FG%. But that's just my observation.

The point of this very long post is simple. You are free to skip to this part if you don't want to read the whole post.

Roy Hibbert has proved in all 4 of his previous seasons that he is a better offensive player than he has shown so far this season. That's why we can tell that it will get better, 3rdStrike. That's our logic, Justin. 4 seasons overpower a single season. If Roy Hibbert shot 60% this season, we would have no reason to conclude that he would shoot 60% for the rest of his career. We could say that he could shoot 50% and see it as a sign of improvement, of course. But saying that he would shoot 60% would be illogical. It's similarly illogical to conclude that he will keep shooting 41.5% like he is now.

Hibbert is shooting 47.1% for his career. A player does not normally decline at 26 (unless he is Andris Biedrins that just stopped caring for whatever reason). So, it's not far-fetched to believe that he is more likely to return to his career averages than keep shooting at his career low.

It's just a matter of numbers. You cannot disprove numbers. It's that simple!

yoadknux
02-10-2013, 05:38 AM
You guys who get upset over Roy's deal crack me up. If your boss comes into your office on Monday and offers you more than your worth are you going to tell him no? Are you going to say "Can't do that boss I would be literally (LOL) stealing money from you"

**** no you wouldn't.

So shut your damn pie holes about Roy's deal, if you think he's overpaid take it up with the front office not with the damn player you dinguses.

Is Roy overpaid? Maybe I don't know, but he's certainly not as overpaid as some other big men in the NBA right now check out the Lake show on a nightly basis if you need proof. But I do know that if he's "overpaid" or not all Roy did was get himself a good deal and I can't begrudge any human for doing that because every single sucker in this thread would do the exact same thing.

That's all I have to say about this absurd thread that takes an asinine premise (that Roy is somehow at fault for being paid his fair market value) and runs wild with it. If you want to be upset about how Roy is playing, fine, but you'll look a whole lot more mature about it if you leave his contract out of it. Murphy never bothered me so much how much he was paid, he upset because he was a lazy *** big man. Roy at least is a tremendous defender. Elite even.
Do you think anyone here cares about Roy Making a lot of money? Nobody gives a **** about that, we're all happy for him getting rich, the problem starts when that money counts against your cap and you are forced to dump Granger or not resign West because of the underperforming overpaid big fellow

Nuntius
02-10-2013, 05:39 AM
Do you think anyone here cares about Roy Making a lot of money? Nobody gives a **** about that, we're all happy for him getting rich, the problem starts when that money counts against your cap and you are forced to dump Granger or not resign West because of the underperforming overpaid big fellow

There is no need to dump Granger or not resign West because of Roy's contract at the moment.

5_7_Clash
02-10-2013, 10:40 AM
You guys who get upset over Roy's deal crack me up. If your boss comes into your office on Monday and offers you more than your worth are you going to tell him no? Are you going to say "Can't do that boss I would be literally (LOL) stealing money from you"

**** no you wouldn't.

So shut your damn pie holes about Roy's deal, if you think he's overpaid take it up with the front office not with the damn player you dinguses.

Is Roy overpaid? Maybe I don't know, but he's certainly not as overpaid as some other big men in the NBA right now check out the Lake show on a nightly basis if you need proof. But I do know that if he's "overpaid" or not all Roy did was get himself a good deal and I can't begrudge any human for doing that because every single sucker in this thread would do the exact same thing.

That's all I have to say about this absurd thread that takes an asinine premise (that Roy is somehow at fault for being paid his fair market value) and runs wild with it. If you want to be upset about how Roy is playing, fine, but you'll look a whole lot more mature about it if you leave his contract out of it. Murphy never bothered me so much how much he was paid, he upset because he was a lazy *** big man. Roy at least is a tremendous defender. Elite even.

Well said. And with that, this seems like a good place for this:

http://paulcrump3.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/anigif_enhanced-buzz-14037-1360271914-5.gif?w=824

5_7_Clash
02-10-2013, 10:49 AM
And this is just my general overall feeling about this thread...

http://paulcrump3.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/laughcry-vincent-price.gif?w=824

5_7_Clash
02-10-2013, 10:53 AM
However, THIS could be a good reason to actually trade Hibbert...

http://paulcrump3.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/step-brothers.gif?w=824

5_7_Clash
02-10-2013, 10:53 AM
And... scene.

Thank you for your time.

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 11:40 AM
Jeff was a lifelong backup and that was all that he was. He was paid handsomely for being a backup...:cool: ...

Strongly disagree with this statement. Jeff Foster started more than one season for the Pacers team with Miller, Tinsley, JO, Artest, Jackson that won 60 games. Foster was an ideal pf/c for that team. He was also only 4-5 seasons into his career. Foster in his prime quite possibly is the best pf/center we had. more specifically center. dale davis was great as well but talk about zero offensive game. dale would fiinsh near the rim no doubt.

the foster thtat played two seasons ago vs the bulls in the postseaoson was lights out. or the foster that pulled down like 21 rebounds in a detroit pistons postseason game.. half of which were offensive rebournds. Foster was is in his own right a BAMF as well. defenswively he pissed players off and was always solid on putbacks and made great passes.

point is. even the Foster from two seasons ago vs the bulls was probably in many respects better than Smits or Hibbert. Fosters back would not allow him to play the same minutes. otherwise on a team like this one where scoring is not requird from the center, Foster would probably average 15 rebounds a game and 7 pts. would probably lead lg in offensive rebounds. unselfish and smart.

smits was not durable, and only gave you offesne. he was right for those teams because offense was needed.

Foster was a helluva lot more than a carreer backup. he did everything but score. and thats not a bad thning to have on certain teams where offense is alreadythere.. JO, Artest, Miller, Jackson, Tinsley... Foster did the dirty work and he did it very damn well.

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 11:50 AM
i disagree with dealing Hibbert. I do not think he is as overpaid as some on here believe. the "LITERALLY" stealing money from pacers is an extermist OP.


for conversations sake. what is that everyone on here believes Hibbert should be paid? if the contract could be reworked and negotiated right now what would you expect to see Hibbert paid

Hicks
02-10-2013, 12:03 PM
:laugh: The lifelong backup who started 79 out of 82 games for an ECF 61-win team and who started 345 out of 764 career games. Oh, Lord that's hilarious.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jeff_foster/career_stats.html

http://images1.makefive.com/images/entertainment/movies/best-quotes-from-anchorman-the-legend-of-ron-burgundy/sixty-percent-of-the-time-it-works-every-time-brian-fantana-7.jpg

55% of the time... it's right every time.

Hicks
02-10-2013, 12:09 PM
Well said. And with that, this seems like a good place for this:

http://paulcrump3.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/anigif_enhanced-buzz-14037-1360271914-5.gif?w=824

If I had both the time and skill... I'd love to edit that gif. Put a sign on the shopping cart, "Trade Market." Replace the kid tossing the cereal box with the kid tossing Roy's head with a concerned look on his face, cut to the Dikembe swat, showing a now smiling/happy Hibbert floating way...

OlBlu
02-10-2013, 12:09 PM
:laugh: The lifelong backup who started 79 out of 82 games for an ECF 61-win team and who started 345 out of 764 career games. Oh, Lord that's hilarious.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jeff_foster/career_stats.html

http://images1.makefive.com/images/entertainment/movies/best-quotes-from-anchorman-the-legend-of-ron-burgundy/sixty-percent-of-the-time-it-works-every-time-brian-fantana-7.jpg

55% of the time... it's right every time.

Yeah, that is one year..... How about the others? How about being hurt all of the time? Foster was a run-of-the-mill post player for almost all of his career....:cool: ...

vnzla81
02-10-2013, 12:29 PM
Yeah, that is one year..... How about the others? How about being hurt all of the time? Foster was a run-of-the-mill post player for almost all of his career....:cool: ...

Yeah but he was the heart and soul of the team, plus his aura around the team was the best looking aura I have seen in my life.

Johanvil
02-10-2013, 12:36 PM
:laugh: The lifelong backup who started 79 out of 82 games for an ECF 61-win team and who started 345 out of 764 career games. Oh, Lord that's hilarious.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jeff_foster/career_stats.html

http://images1.makefive.com/images/entertainment/movies/best-quotes-from-anchorman-the-legend-of-ron-burgundy/sixty-percent-of-the-time-it-works-every-time-brian-fantana-7.jpg

55% of the time... it's right every time.

That doesn't make sense...

OlBlu
02-10-2013, 12:37 PM
Yeah but he was the heart and soul of the team, plus his aura around the team was the best looking aura I have seen in my life.

That is a different story altogether and I agree with you.....:cool:

cdash
02-10-2013, 12:37 PM
This thread is still happening?

5_7_Clash
02-10-2013, 12:45 PM
Foster in his prime quite possibly is the best pf/center we had.

This needs to be done...

Jeff Foster (Career Avg)-

G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

764 345 20.6 1.9 3.9 .497 0.0 0.1 .130 1.0 1.7 .615 2.8 4.1 6.9 0.9 0.7 0.4 0.8 2.5 4.9

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fosteje01.html

Mel Daniels (Career Avg)-

G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

639 35.2 7.3 15.6 .468 0.0 0.1 .088 3.8 5.8 .657 4.5 10.4 14.9 1.8 0.6 1.5 3.0 3.6 18.4

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/danieme01.html

vnzla81
02-10-2013, 12:54 PM
This needs to be done...

Jeff Foster (Career Avg)-

G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

764 345 20.6 1.9 3.9 .497 0.0 0.1 .130 1.0 1.7 .615 2.8 4.1 6.9 0.9 0.7 0.4 0.8 2.5 4.9

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fosteje01.html

Mel Daniels (Career Avg)-

G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

639 35.2 7.3 15.6 .468 0.0 0.1 .088 3.8 5.8 .657 4.5 10.4 14.9 1.8 0.6 1.5 3.0 3.6 18.4

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/danieme01.html

Yeah but team chemistry was better with Foster :-p

Brinocerous
02-10-2013, 01:00 PM
I loved me some Jeff Foster, but lets get real here. Hans is already a better overall player than Jeff. To say otherwise is willful ignorance of the facts.


<colgroup><col><col span="2"><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col span="2"><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>

G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


Foster
764
345
21
2
3.9
0.5
0
0.1
0.13
1
1.7
0.62
2.8
4.1
6.9
0.9
0.7
0.4
0.8
3
4.9


Hans
216
30
20
3
7.2
0.43
0
0
0
3
3.8
0.77
1.9
2.8
4.6
0.5
0.6
0.2
0.9
2
9.1

</tbody>

BlueNGold
02-10-2013, 01:12 PM
I loved me some Jeff Foster, but lets get real here. Hans is already a better overall player than Jeff. To say otherwise is willful ignorance of the facts.


<tbody>

G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


Foster
764
345
21
2
3.9
0.5
0
0.1
0.13
1
1.7
0.62
2.8
4.1
6.9
0.9
0.7
0.4
0.8
3
4.9


Hans
216
30
20
3
7.2
0.43
0
0
0
3
3.8
0.77
1.9
2.8
4.6
0.5
0.6
0.2
0.9
2
9.1

</tbody>


You cannot be serious. Tyler is somewhat fortunate to be 2nd string. We would get killed with him starting.

Brinocerous
02-10-2013, 01:21 PM
And we would get killed even worse with Foster starting.

able
02-10-2013, 01:25 PM
And we would get killed even worse with Foster starting.

Sorry you lost me, claiming tyler being better than Foster is insane, go over that stat row, and you will see WHY Jeff was at least twice the player hansboroough is. Oh wait, I get it, you only look at the points avg, I seeeeee, lol well that explains ALL. In fact the entire thread is explained in one go, shall I lock it now ?

OlBlu
02-10-2013, 01:30 PM
Sorry you lost me, claiming tyler being better than Foster is insane, go over that stat row, and you will see WHY Jeff was at least twice the player hansboroough is. Oh wait, I get it, you only look at the points avg, I seeeeee, lol well that explains ALL. In fact the entire thread is explained in one go, shall I lock it now ?

That gets my vote, it is absurd......:cool: ... Besides, I am preparing a good gloat for when Ohio State clobbers IU.....

Brinocerous
02-10-2013, 01:40 PM
Sorry you lost me, claiming tyler being better than Foster is insane, go over that stat row, and you will see WHY Jeff was at least twice the player hansboroough is. Oh wait, I get it, you only look at the points avg, I seeeeee, lol well that explains ALL. In fact the entire thread is explained in one go, shall I lock it now ?

I actually agree with you on the comparison. It's inaccurate to try to gauge a player with a 13 year career vs. one 4 years in the league. For a more accurate comparison, here's Jeff's 4th year averages vs. Tyler's 4th year:


<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col span="2"><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>

Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


foster
2002-03 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fosteje01/gamelog/2003/)
26
IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2003.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2003.html)
C
77
2
10
1
2.3
0.36
0
0
0
0
0.8
0.54
1.5
2.1
3.6
0.7
0.4
0.3
0.4
1
2.1


hans

2012-13 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hansbty01/gamelog/2013/)
27
IND (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2013.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013.html)
PF
51
0
16
2
4.6
0.43
0
0
0
3
3.5
0.73
1.6
2.5
4.1
0.4
0.3
0.3
0.8
2
6.4


</tbody>

So in each players' fourth year as a pro, one player has seen more floor time, got to the stripe more and converted, gotten more rebounds and averaged 3x more points. And the other one is Jeff Foster.

And I also agree that the sooner this thread is taken out back and shot, the better the internet in general will be.

ilive4sports
02-10-2013, 01:41 PM
I loved me some Jeff Foster, but lets get real here. Hans is already a better overall player than Jeff. To say otherwise is willful ignorance of the facts.


<tbody>

G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


Foster
764
345
21
2
3.9
0.5
0
0.1
0.13
1
1.7
0.62
2.8
4.1
6.9
0.9
0.7
0.4
0.8
3
4.9


Hans
216
30
20
3
7.2
0.43
0
0
0
3
3.8
0.77
1.9
2.8
4.6
0.5
0.6
0.2
0.9
2
9.1

</tbody>

what am i looking at here that proves Tyler > Foster? The 4ppg more at a lower shooting percentage? You can't be serious. The only thing Tyler does better than Jeff and will only do better than Jeff is score. Foster dominated on the glass, especially offensively, was a superior defender and a better passer.

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 01:43 PM
This needs to be done...

Jeff Foster (Career Avg)-

G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

764 345 20.6 1.9 3.9 .497 0.0 0.1 .130 1.0 1.7 .615 2.8 4.1 6.9 0.9 0.7 0.4 0.8 2.5 4.9

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fosteje01.html

Mel Daniels (Career Avg)-

G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

639 35.2 7.3 15.6 .468 0.0 0.1 .088 3.8 5.8 .657 4.5 10.4 14.9 1.8 0.6 1.5 3.0 3.6 18.4

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/danieme01.html

I ablsolutely do not disagree. I meant in my time as Pacers fan which is back Vern Fleming, Greg Drieling, Person so forth. Cannot disagree with you when his # hangs from the rafters.

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 01:49 PM
[QUOTE=Brinocerous;1584249]I loved me some Jeff Foster, but lets get real here. Hans is already a better overall player than Jeff. To say otherwise is willful ignorance of the facts.

HA. im a big Hans supporter and he is no where near the player Fiesty Foster was in his prime. Foster was 6'10 easy and could gaurd most teams Centers. Even did a decent job against Shaq.

Foster better passer, rebounder, defender, leader, and played just as hard. Foster was a better version of Dennis Rodman. Foster dominated games with his offensive rebounding.

The only reason he no longer started for this team was due to back problems. If i had a healthy Foster in his prime or HIbbs right now i would take Foster. if Hibbert hits his prime with some offensive game then i would reconsider. I would take Foster over Smits as well for the long haul, other than a 3 year career run under Bird Smits had durability issues.

Hans better than Foster right now. C'mon Man.

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 01:51 PM
And we would get killed even worse with Foster starting.

you must not remember the series Foster played in Reggie Millers last season. one game during that series Foster ended up with a record in rebounds, i think it was 21. he also had like 12 offensive rebounds and won us that game easily. in fact, Detroit was gameplanning on Foster the next game. Foster was a big reason that series went 6 games.

you obviously do not realize how good Jeff Foster was in his prime.

Trophy
02-10-2013, 01:52 PM
Obviously some people aren't watching the games carefully and are just basing performance by the stats. Roy's defense is a big reason why we're at the level we're at. His offense is starting to pick up, but I guess some people would rather go with the negatives rather than the positives to try and :stirthepo on PD.

I have a really hard time taking threads like these ones seriously. Just reading the title made me :shakehead.

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 01:54 PM
what am i looking at here that proves Tyler > Foster? The 4ppg more at a lower shooting percentage? You can't be serious. The only thing Tyler does better than Jeff and will only do better than Jeff is score. Foster dominated on the glass, especially offensively, was a superior defender and a better passer.

if Hansbrough were 6'10 and could gaurd opposing teams centers, he would have a chance to reach Fosters level. i like Hansbrough as much as the next pacer fan and prob more, but Feisty Foster was more valuable in many respects over Hans.

dal9
02-10-2013, 02:02 PM
[QUOTE]

HA. im a big Hans supporter and he is no where near the player Fiesty Foster was in his prime. Foster was 6'10 easy and could gaurd most teams Centers. Even did a decent job against Shaq.

Foster better passer, rebounder, defender, leader, and played just as hard. Foster was a better version of Dennis Rodman. Foster dominated games with his offensive rebounding.

The only reason he no longer started for this team was due to back problems. If i had a healthy Foster in his prime or HIbbs right now i would take Foster. if Hibbert hits his prime with some offensive game then i would reconsider. I would take Foster over Smits as well for the long haul, other than a 3 year career run under Bird Smits had durability issues.

Hans better than Foster right now. C'mon Man.

Probably can just rename this the "say crazy **** thread"...not to single this post out, but I am reading along nodding, good point, good point, OK I agree, and all of a sudden here comes "Foster was a better version of Dennis Rodman"

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 02:04 PM
Yeah, that is one year..... How about the others? How about being hurt all of the time? Foster was a run-of-the-mill post player for almost all of his career....:cool: ...

Foster had no offensive game for most of his career. except for the offensive rebounding which made up for a ton of it.

bottom line:

Foster would be starting on over half the nba teams, and probably closer to two thirds in his prime. Therefore, he was not a career backup as your original post suggeted.

I know Foster would start on the Heat, Celtics (could move KG to PF like we did JO), Hawks, Philly, Spurs (Pop would get Foster on court in his prime), Lakers (Kobe would love Foster tracking down 10 offensive rebounds or more some games).

These are playoff caliber teams and Foster would start on over half of them would be my guess. easily he would start on the rest of the bottom feeders.

Your estimation of solid role players must be completely skewed in regard to mine. The Heat would be very very dangerous with a healthy Jeff Foster circa 2001-2008

* I bet Coach Vogel would agree as well. After Fosters retirement the FO asked Coach Vogel waht he wanted most from the draft.. Coach Frank asked if there was another Foster out there and if so go get him. I dont think Plumee is that guy but thats not point.

dal9
02-10-2013, 02:04 PM
Hibbert is shooting 47.1% for his career. A player does not normally decline at 26 (unless he is Andris Biedrins that just stopped caring for whatever reason). So, it's not far-fetched to believe that he is more likely to return to his career averages than keep shooting at his career low.

It's just a matter of numbers. You cannot disprove numbers. It's that simple!

I would suggest the "whatever reason" that Biedrins stopped caring was "got a huge contract." Could that be relevant to Roy's struggles?

5_7_Clash
02-10-2013, 02:08 PM
[QUOTE]

HA. im a big Hans supporter and he is no where near the player Fiesty Foster was in his prime. Foster was 6'10 easy and could gaurd most teams Centers. Even did a decent job against Shaq.

Foster better passer, rebounder, defender, leader, and played just as hard. Foster was a better version of Dennis Rodman. Foster dominated games with his offensive rebounding.

The only reason he no longer started for this team was due to back problems. If i had a healthy Foster in his prime or HIbbs right now i would take Foster. if Hibbert hits his prime with some offensive game then i would reconsider. I would take Foster over Smits as well for the long haul, other than a 3 year career run under Bird Smits had durability issues.

Hans better than Foster right now. C'mon Man.


And how exactly is this true?

Justin Tyme
02-10-2013, 02:08 PM
Want a logical answer?

Here you are:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2012/ (11-12 season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2011/ (10-11 season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2010/ (09-10 season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2009/ (08-09 season)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2013/ (12-13 season)

Those are Roy Hibbert's shot charts for every single year of his NBA career.

Problem #1: He is shooting below 50% at rim for the first time in his career.

Let's see how he shot at rim in his previous seasons:

08-09: 51.2% (104-203)

09-10: 60.9% (181-297)

10-11: 65.1% (181-278)

11-12: 57.5% (161-280)

He is shooting 47% (94-200) from this area this season. That's a career low by 4.2%. That's 10.5% lower than what he shot last year from that same area.

Problem #2: He is shooting below 40% from 3 to 10 feet for the second time in his career. It's a career low as well.

Let's see how he shot from 3 to 10 feet in his previous seasons:

08-09: 44.6% (66-148)

09-10: 45.1% (124-275)

10-11: 39.7% (158-398)

11-12: 50.3% (173-344)

He is shooting 37.7% (81-225) from this area this season. That's a career low by 2%. That's also 12.6% lower than what he shot last year from that same area.

Problem #3: He is shooting a career low in lay-ups as well.

Hibbert's FG% in lay-ups over the previous seasons:

08-09: 41% (59-144) [36 of those, that is 61%, were assisted]

09-10: 53.3% (114-214) [69 of those, that is 60.5%, were assisted]

10-11: 54.4% (87-160) [51 of those, that is 58.6%, were assisted]

11-12: 56.2% (95-169) [45 of those, that is 47.4%, were assisted]

He is shooting 40.4% (40-99) this season. That's a career low by 0.6%. That's 15.8% lower than what he shot last year. Also, only 15 of his lay-ups are assisted. That means that only 37.5% of his lay-ups were assisted. That's 9.9% lower than his career low and 21.1% lower than his previous career low.

Should we expect from Hibbert to get by his man and create a lay-up for himself? No, we shouldn't. We should expect him to create a hook shot for himself. A hook shot that he still shoots on a 54.3% (75-138) clip. A hook shot that is assisted on a higher rate (43 of his 75 makes are assisted, that is 57.3%) than his lay-ups for some reason.

Bonus observation: Roy is rebounding more this season on the offensive end. That results in more tip-ins. Let's check his offensive rebounding numbers first and his tip-ins second.

Roy's offensive rebounding totals:

08-09: 115 (70 games) [42 games as a starter but rookie season so not a whole lot of minutes]

09-10: 177 (81 games) [69 games as a starter]

10-11: 182 (81 games) [started all but 1 game]

11-12: 213 (65 games) [lock-out season]

12-13: 192 (51 games)

So, in 51 games he has already grabbed more offensive boards than the 10-11 and 09-10 seasons in which he played 81 games. Want to do a comparison in minutes? He played 2.244 minutes in 10-11 and 2.035 minutes in 09-10. He has played 1.461 minutes so far and he has already grabbed more offensive boards than 10-11 and 09-10 (he has also blocked 12 more shots than 11-12, 5 more shots than 09-10 and 6 less than 10-11).



Along with his offensive rebounds, his tip-in attempts have increased as well. Let's start with checking his attempts in every season so far:

08-09: 25

09-10: 30

10-11: 42

11-12: 59

12-13: 73

I already posted the games and minutes above. So, in only 51 games and 1.461 minutes Roy has surpassed his career high in tip-ins by 14.

He has attempted 73 tip-ins out of 192 offensive rebounds. That means that 38% of his offensive rebounds result into tip-ins.

In fact, Hibbert's 73 tip-in attempts are more than those of Marc Gasol (24) and Tyson Chandler (43) combined!

And Tyson Chandler has grabbed more offensive rebounds than Hibbert (215, to be precise).

Now, let's see his shooting percentage in those tip-ins over the years:

08-09: 52% (13-25)

09-10: 50% (15-30)

10-11: 40.5% (17-42)

11-12: 40.7% (24-59)

12-13: 37% (27-73)

So, he is shooting a career low in tip-ins as well. But Hibbert gets his tip-ins exploiting his length and those shot attempts are usually wild due to being heavily contested and mostly off-balance.

Should we fault him for the mised tip-ins? Not so much. Why? Because we wouldn't get those shots if it wasn't for Hibbert rebounding the initial miss in the first place. But a coach could instruct him to reduce the amout of tip-ins and either kick the ball out or gather first and then attempt to finish (possibly earning a foul) because it is hurting his FG%. We all know that FG% is what matters in a Center, [i]right?

What would happen if we were to exclude those tip-in attempts from his overall shooting in each season?

Let's take a look:

08-09: He was 47.1% with 198-420. If we were to exclude his tip-ins (13-25), he would be 185-395. So, he would shoot 46.8%.

09-10: He was 49.5% (49.48% to be precise) with 387-782. If we were to exclude his tip-ins (15-30), he would be 372-752. So, he would shoot 49.5% (49.46 to be precise).

10-11: He was 46.1% with 410-890. If we were to exclude his tip-ins (17-42), he would be 393-848. So, he would shoot 46.3%.

11-12: He was 49.7% with 332-668 (note that he went 52-104 for 50% in the playoffs last year). If we were to exclude his tip-ins (24-59), he would be 308-609. So, he would shoot 50.5%.

12-13: He is 41.6% with 215-517. If we were to exclude his tip-ins (27-73), he would be 188-444. So, he would shoot 42.3%.

He would still shoot horrible but one cannot dispute that his tip-ins negatively influence his FG%. But that's just my observation.

The point of this very long post is simple. You are free to skip to this part if you don't want to read the whole post.

Roy Hibbert has proved in all 4 of his previous seasons that he is a better offensive player than he has shown so far this season. That's why we can tell that it will get better, 3rdStrike. That's our logic, Justin. 4 seasons overpower a single season. If Roy Hibbert shot 60% this season, we would have no reason to conclude that he would shoot 60% for the rest of his career. We could say that he could shoot 50% and see it as a sign of improvement, of course. But saying that he would shoot 60% would be illogical. It's similarly illogical to conclude that he will keep shooting 41.5% like he is now.

Hibbert is shooting 47.1% for his career. A player does not normally decline at 26 (unless he is Andris Biedrins that just stopped caring for whatever reason). So, it's not far-fetched to believe that he is more likely to return to his career averages than keep shooting at his career low.

It's just a matter of numbers. You cannot disprove numbers. It's that simple!


I commend you on the time you put forth on your post. The law of averages is on Hibbert's side that his game will improve sooner or later. The point some have made is Hibbert isn't living up to his contract. It's frustrating to watch a player get paid for the play that made them an Allstar and then not produce like one.

We can cuss and discuss whether Hibbert deserves his contract until the cows come home, but the fact is by his own play and production he doesn't. Hibbert isn't playing well, and he even admitted as such in an interview with Brooke on tv last week.

Some have mentioned Tyson Chandler as a comparison to Hibbert. I did some research on Chandler last night. I looked at his production. People in the past have mentioned how much he meant to Dallas and now NY. That he's a "D" player 1st and not a scorer per se. IIRC, someone compared Chandler's salary to Hibbert's salary. I didn't realize they were both making 13.6 mil this year until I looked it up at Shamsports.

Here is what Chandler is giving for his 13. 6 mil.

11.5 PPG... 11.2 RPG... 67% FG... 66.7% FT

3-20 reb games in a row last week. 4-18 reb games this year... 27-10 reb or more games this year.


This is what Hibbert is giving for his 13.6 mil this year.

9.9 PPG... 8.3 RPG... 41.6% FG... 70% FT

The most rebs Hibbert has garnered in a game this year is 15. 15 games of 10 rebs or more in a game this season

Hibbert isn't producing for the salary he's being paid as Chandler is. Both Hibbert and Chandler are good "D" players, and contribute mightly to their teams "D".

IMO, this thread was a thread of frustration from Hibbert's play this season, and more to the loss to Toronto when the bigs of Toronto went 20 of 32 shooting for 62%. It is frustrating to watch AMIR JOHNSON get 14 and 14 and 20 year old ROOKIE Valanciunas get 14 and 13. Thus, I personally can understand the thread originator and others frustration. To me, they have a right to express their displeasure with Hibbert's play. Trading Hibbert might be an over re-action at the present, but if things haven't changed this time next year it might have some validity.

I knew after reading the thread title this was going to be a controversial thread. I was prepared, but unfortunately some took the thread to another level to the point of asking for the thread to be deleted. That bothered me more than any other comments in this thread. I want to thank ADMIN for ignoring the request. JMOAA

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 02:17 PM
[QUOTE=PacersPride;1584294]

And how exactly is this true?

how is not true. its just my opinion. i could give a detailed analysis but would you read it. i doubt it. so i will just say i believe overall Foster was a better rebounder. not a better defender. but Rodman was limited with his size whereas Foster was more of a combo backup big who could gaurd PF/C. ive always believed that to important when it comes to the front court rotation. plus Rodman was nukkin futts and Foster a leader. its a shame Foster did not have 2-3 seasons left.

he coulda made a huge difference in last seasons miami series just like he did vs the bulls and thats n limited minutes. foster was as solid as it gets from a guy who did not need to score to impact a game.

Justin Tyme
02-10-2013, 02:27 PM
I would suggest the "whatever reason" that Biedrins stopped caring was "got a huge contract." Could that be relevant to Roy's struggles?


Speaking of Biedrins he got "8" rebs last game!!! I had to take a double take at the box score as I thought my eyes had deceived me.

Lets ALL hope Hibbert doesn't come close to what Biedrins has become after signing his last contract. Talk about a disappearing act.

5_7_Clash
02-10-2013, 02:34 PM
[QUOTE=5_7_Clash;1584319]

how is not true. its just my opinion. i could give a detailed analysis but would you read it. i doubt it. so i will just say i believe overall Foster was a better rebounder. not a better defender. but Rodman was limited with his size whereas Foster was more of a combo backup big who could gaurd PF/C. ive always believed that to important when it comes to the front court rotation. plus Rodman was nukkin futts and Foster a leader. its a shame Foster did not have 2-3 seasons left.

he coulda made a huge difference in last seasons miami series just like he did vs the bulls and thats n limited minutes. foster was as solid as it gets from a guy who did not need to score to impact a game.

I actually WOULD read any analysis you'd like to put together and I think some other people would, too. I'd encourage you to do so.
I appreciate that this is just your opinion but I feel like a statement like this is more about hyperbole and trying to prove your point than it is a well-informed argument. There isn't any universe where Foster was a better Dennis Rodman. None. And I love The Chairman and hate Dennis Rodman. But I'm sorry, it's just not anywhere close to a valid point.

Dennis Rodman's Career Achievements:

5ื NBA champion (1989–1990, 1996–1998)
2ื NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1990–1991)
2ื NBA All-Star (1990, 1992)
2ื All-NBA Third Team (1992, 1995)
7ื All-Defensive First Team (1989–1993, 1995–1996)
All-Defensive Second Team (1994)
7ื NBA rebounding champion (1992–1998)
Detroit Pistons #10 retired

OlBlu
02-10-2013, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE=PacersPride;1584333]

I actually WOULD read any analysis you'd like to put together and I think some other people would, too. I'd encourage you to do so.
I appreciate that this is just your opinion but I feel like a statement like this is more about hyperbole and trying to prove your point than it is a well-informed argument. There isn't any universe where Foster was a better Dennis Rodman. None. And I love The Chairman and hate Dennis Rodman. But I'm sorry, it's just not anywhere close to a valid point.

Dennis Rodman's Career Achievements:

5ื NBA champion (1989–1990, 1996–1998)
2ื NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1990–1991)
2ื NBA All-Star (1990, 1992)
2ื All-NBA Third Team (1992, 1995)
7ื All-Defensive First Team (1989–1993, 1995–1996)
All-Defensive Second Team (1994)
7ื NBA rebounding champion (1992–1998)
Detroit Pistons #10 retired

The worm should be in the HOF.....:cool: ... Foster never made an all star team. This is a silly discusion....

Heisenberg
02-10-2013, 02:57 PM
[QUOTE=5_7_Clash;1584356]

The worm should be in the HOF.....:cool: ... Foster never made an all star team. This is a silly discusion....

Rodman is in the HOF. And yes, this is a silly discussion.

Hicks
02-10-2013, 02:58 PM
That doesn't make sense...

Jeff started 45% of his NBA games. That includes essentially the entire 2004 season, where we were a damn good team (suggesting he wasn't merely starting because he was on a bad team).

So while it would be fair to say he was off the bench more often (55%) than not, to phrase it as 'he's a lifelong backup' would not be fair because it would imply that Jeff was almost exclusively a bench player (and I think, considering the source, it is also a veiled insult to the quality of Foster as a player).

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 03:04 PM
[QUOTE=PacersPride;1584333]

I actually WOULD read any analysis you'd like to put together and I think some other people would, too. I'd encourage you to do so.
I appreciate that this is just your opinion but I feel like a statement like this is more about hyperbole and trying to prove your point than it is a well-informed argument. There isn't any universe where Foster was a better Dennis Rodman. None. And I love The Chairman and hate Dennis Rodman. But I'm sorry, it's just not anywhere close to a valid point.

Dennis Rodman's Career Achievements:

5ื NBA champion (1989–1990, 1996–1998)
2ื NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1990–1991)
2ื NBA All-Star (1990, 1992)
2ื All-NBA Third Team (1992, 1995)
7ื All-Defensive First Team (1989–1993, 1995–1996)
All-Defensive Second Team (1994)
7ื NBA rebounding champion (1992–1998)
Detroit Pistons #10 retired

Rodman was a great player no doubt. but I dont believe Foster is as far behind to state its a silly discussion. Just to set the record straight. I used in comparison to the hans vs foster debate which imo is silly. Rodman was on teams that won championships and they are always given the accolades. I am not denying Rodman as great. but Foster was great in his own right. only due to lingering back issues did his career numbers not reach the record books. here is a great article to justify my position.

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2011/02/jeff-foster-could-out-rebound-the-floor/

Everyone who follows the NBA closely knows that Jeff Foster is one of the best rebounders in league history, particularly when it comes to offensive rebounding. Looking at offensive rebound rate (a metric that since 1971 has recorded the percentage of rebounds a player gets while he is on the court and is the best measure of rebounding ability), only four players in NBA history have a better career percentage than Jeff’s 15.2: Jayson Williams, Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone and Larry Smith. And overall, factoring in both offensive and defensive boards, Foster’s 18.93 is the eight best total rebound rate since they started recording it. (Rodman is first with an absolutely insane 23.44.)

5_7_Clash
02-10-2013, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=5_7_Clash;1584356]

Rodman was a great player no doubt. but I dont believe Foster is as far behind to state its a silly discussion. Just to set the record straight. I used in comparison to the hans vs foster debate which imo is silly. Rodman was on teams that won championships and they are always given the accolades. I am not denying Rodman as great. but Foster was great in his own right. only due to lingering back issues did his career numbers not reach the record books. here is a great article to justify my position.

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2011/02/jeff-foster-could-out-rebound-the-floor/

Everyone who follows the NBA closely knows that Jeff Foster is one of the best rebounders in league history, particularly when it comes to offensive rebounding. Looking at offensive rebound rate (a metric that since 1971 has recorded the percentage of rebounds a player gets while he is on the court and is the best measure of rebounding ability), only four players in NBA history have a better career percentage than Jeff’s 15.2: Jayson Williams, Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone and Larry Smith. And overall, factoring in both offensive and defensive boards, Foster’s 18.93 is the eight best total rebound rate since they started recording it. (Rodman is first with an absolutely insane 23.44.)

When you take a look at the 4th year numbers comparison between Foster and Hans, it's in no way as silly as saying that Foster>D-Rod.

Jeff Foster was most definitely a great cleaner on both sides of the floor. One of the best. I absolutely agree with you. And he gave a lot to this franchise, his teammates, and the fans both on and off the court. He will always be one of my favorite Pacers, no doubt.

And with that... I'm out (of this discussion). *drop mic*

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE=PacersPride;1584373]

When you take a look at the 4th year numbers comparison between Foster and Hans, it's in no way as silly as saying that Foster>D-Rod.

Jeff Foster was most definitely a great cleaner on both sides of the floor. One of the best. I absolutely agree with you. And he gave a lot to this franchise, his teammates, and the fans both on and off the court. He will always be one of my favorite Pacers, no doubt.

And with that... I'm out (of this discussion). *drop mic*

all im saying is Foster was more than a "lifelong" career backup posted by someone below.

1984
02-10-2013, 03:47 PM
Dang - it has been so long since a thread got locked around here.

OlBlu
02-10-2013, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=OlBlu;1584367]

Rodman is in the HOF. And yes, this is a silly discussion.

I thought he might be but I wasn't sure. He certainly deserved to be even though people here think Foster was better....:cool: ...

Peck
02-10-2013, 04:14 PM
[QUOTE=Heisenberg;1584368]

I thought he might be but I wasn't sure. He certainly deserved to be even though people here think Foster was better....:cool: ...

There are a lot of homers on this board, which is fine because it is a Pacers board afterall, but there may be only one or two people who actually believe this.

I mean everybody knows I love Dale Davis but even I wouldn't say that Dale Davis (who was better than Foster) was better than Rodman. The worm was a one of a kind animal.

*Yes I realize that I am opening up the Dale vs. Foster debate, but isn't that much better than having to hear about trading away Roy?

Hoop
02-10-2013, 04:48 PM
I'm not actually happy with Roy this season, but I do not want to trade him, he's anchored the D pretty darn well. The FG% is a worry, hard to believe a guy that big with a historically good touch around the rim is shooting that bad.

They said on the JMV radio show that of any player that has took a least 200 shoots around the rim Roy is dead last in FG% for the entire NBA.

Nuntius
02-10-2013, 05:24 PM
I would suggest the "whatever reason" that Biedrins stopped caring was "got a huge contract." Could that be relevant to Roy's struggles?

It's fallacious to assume that a player stops caring after he gets a huge contract. In fact, even Biedrins didn't simply stopped caring as I said in my original post.

He had a career season in the year that followed the signing of his huge contract. He was injured in the following season (09-10) and appeared in only 33 out of 82 games due to back and groin ailments. He had some good games at the beginning of the 10-11 season but he was injured again starting December 10 and after battling through injuries he sprained his ankle in March 16 which ended his season. He played 59 out of 82 games in that season. He is still being constantly re-injured every so often.

OlBlu
02-10-2013, 05:37 PM
It's fallacious to assume that a player stops caring after he gets a huge contract. In fact, even Biedrins didn't simply stopped caring as I said in my original post.

He had a career season in the year that followed the signing of his huge contract. He was injured in the following season (09-10) and appeared in only 33 out of 82 games due to back and groin ailments. He had some good games at the beginning of the 10-11 season but he was injured again starting December 10 and after battling through injuries he sprained his ankle in March 16 which ended his season. He played 59 out of 82 games in that season. He is still being constantly re-injured every so often.

If a player stops caring, it is his defense that will suffer. That hasn't happened to Roy. He has developed some kind of mental block on offense and I think he will work hard to try and correct that in the off season........:cool: ...

Nuntius
02-10-2013, 05:57 PM
I commend you on the time you put forth on your post. The law of averages is on Hibbert's side that his game will improve sooner or later. The point some have made is Hibbert isn't living up to his contract. It's frustrating to watch a player get paid for the play that made them an Allstar and then not produce like one.

We can cuss and discuss whether Hibbert deserves his contract until the cows come home, but the fact is by his own play and production he doesn't. Hibbert isn't playing well, and he even admitted as such in an interview with Brooke on tv last week.

People have the right to be frustrated about Roy's poor offensive production. That much is true. Roy is, of course, frustrated about this as well. That's one of the reasons that he isn't producing better as well, imo. He knows that people are frustrated about his offensive play and tries his best to prove them wrong but fail and fail again. But that's just my take.

Even if someone disagrees with my take, we would probably have to agree on one thing. Yes, people have the right to be frustrated by Roy's offensive play but they should acknowledge his overall play and impact in our team.



Some have mentioned Tyson Chandler as a comparison to Hibbert. I did some research on Chandler last night. I looked at his production. People in the past have mentioned how much he meant to Dallas and now NY. That he's a "D" player 1st and not a scorer per se. IIRC, someone compared Chandler's salary to Hibbert's salary. I didn't realize they were both making 13.6 mil this year until I looked it up at Shamsports.

The difference is that Hibbert normally is a scorer. Not a 20 PPG one (almost no post player is a 20 PPG one, nowadays) but he is solid Center offensively. You can throw him the ball in the post and expect him to score. There is a reason why Chandler has only shot 39 of his 309 more than 3 feet away from the rim.

Yes, Chandler is indeed shooting 67% for the season. But 72.9% of his baskets are assisted and 87.3% of his shots are at the rim. By the way, he is shooting 16/39 from further than 3 feet. That's 41%.



Here is what Chandler is giving for his 13. 6 mil.

11.5 PPG... 11.2 RPG... 67% FG... 66.7% FT

3-20 reb games in a row last week. 4-18 reb games this year... 27-10 reb or more games this year.


This is what Hibbert is giving for his 13.6 mil this year.

9.9 PPG... 8.3 RPG... 41.6% FG... 70% FT

The most rebs Hibbert has garnered in a game this year is 15. 15 games of 10 rebs or more in a game this season

Those stats are absolutely true. But it's very important to put them into context.

Tyson Chandler plays in a poor rebounding team. The New York Knicks are #22 in Total Rebounds per Game and #16 in Total Rebounding % (Rebound Rate). The Indiana Pacers are #3 in both categories. You can access those stats here -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/total-rebounds-per-game

Want to know the second best rebounder on the Knicks? It's Carmelo Anthony at 6.3 RPG. After him? It's their sixth man, JR Smith at 5 RPG. And he is a shooting guard. Here are the stats about this as well -> http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/ny/cat/avgRebounds/new-york-knicks

The Pacers on the other hand? Roy is first with 8.3 RPG, Paul George follows with 7.8 RPG and David West comes third with 7.6 RPG. Simply put, there are less available rebound on the Pacers to grab as we tend to crash the boards collectively as a team. Plus, it's important to note that Chandler is playing 33.1 MPG while Roy plays 28.6 MPG. Here are the stats -> http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/ind/cat/avgRebounds/indiana-pacers




Hibbert isn't producing for the salary he's being paid as Chandler is. Both Hibbert and Chandler are good "D" players, and contribute mightly to their teams "D".

Let's also put this into context. The Knicks are #16 in Defensive Efficiency, tied for #18 in Opponent FG% and tied for #25 in Opponent TS%. They are not a great defensive team and Chandler's impact on that end has not been as big this season. Ask any Knicks fan in any online forum and he should tell you that Tyson has not been as good as he was last year.

On the other hand, the Pacers are #1 in all of the aforementioned categories. Roy makes a real impact defensively. It isn't only about blocking shots. It is about altering tons of shots and making guards think twice before they enter our paint.




IMO, this thread was a thread of frustration from Hibbert's play this season, and more to the loss to Toronto when the bigs of Toronto went 20 of 32 shooting for 62%. It is frustrating to watch AMIR JOHNSON get 14 and 14 and 20 year old ROOKIE Valanciunas get 14 and 13. Thus, I personally can understand the thread originator and others frustration. To me, they have a right to express their displeasure with Hibbert's play. Trading Hibbert might be an over re-action at the present, but if things haven't changed this time next year it might have some validity.

I knew after reading the thread title this was going to be a controversial thread. I was prepared, but unfortunately some took the thread to another level to the point of asking for the thread to be deleted. That bothered me more than any other comments in this thread. I want to thank ADMIN for ignoring the request. JMOAA

As I said before, I can understand the frustration. But don't lose perspective. Just like we cannot get too high about Paul George, we cannot get too low about Roy Hibbert. Frankly, I don't want to know what I will read when PG gets his max.

PS: Valanciunas will get a lot of double-doubles in his career. He would have gotten a bunch of them already if it wasn't for his injury that side-lined him for so long. He is a real Center. I'm just so glad that I'm able to see him night in and night out in the NBA. That's a privilege I didn't have when he was playing in Europe.

vnzla81
02-10-2013, 06:04 PM
I'm not actually happy with Roy this season, but I do not want to trade him, he's anchored the D pretty darn well. The FG% is a worry, hard to believe a guy that big with a historically good touch around the rim is shooting that bad.

They said on the JMV radio show that of any player that has took a least 200 shoots around the rim Roy is dead last in FG% for the entire NBA.

Roy can hit 150 straight 3 pointers and his percentage would not be as good as Chandlers(somebody on twitter posted this).

ejwallace
02-10-2013, 06:11 PM
This thread is simply ridiculous....Roy's FG% has dropped AT MOST 8% over his ENTIRE career....That means that he missed 8 more shots per 100 than he did last season....He is only down 3 points per game....THREE POINTS...His rebounds are down by only 1/2 a rebound per game, and I would argue that Lance (who's RPG has increased by 2.5 over last season) and PG (who's RPG has increased by 2.2 over last season and 4.1 over the previous season) steal more rebounds from Roy this year than they ever did in the past....Roy's BLK and STL have both increased this year, minor increases, but they HAVE increased....He forces opponents to alter more shots than anyone else on the team, and is the main reason that teams tend to settle for long range jumpers against us (also helping Lance and PG inflate those rebounding stats).

Come on guys, put away the pitchforks and enjoy the ride....Hibbert has NEVER been an offensive machine, why would you expect him to be now??

Let me go ahead and include his career stats so that you don't have to waste your time searching for them....Maybe these will help prove to all you fickle fans that Roy is really not having as bad a year as you think he is....You're expecting more because the man got paid, and that is not his fault, it's yours....

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/NotTawd/HibSeasons_zps8e76b49e.jpg

speakout4
02-10-2013, 06:17 PM
....He is only down 3 points per game....THREE POINTS...His rebounds are down by only 1/2 a rebound per game,
http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/NotTawd/HibSeasons_zps8e76b49e.jpg

THREE POINTS==22.6%, not chopped liver considering.

Pacer Fan
02-10-2013, 07:21 PM
This thread P!SSES ME OFF!!! ...

I personally think a moderator needs to delete this crap ... embarassing for me as a PD member to think that Big Roy could happen to open up PD in his browser and the first thing he sees is an "official trade roy hibbert thread"...

Your thoughtlessness disgust me ..

I have a few things to say about this...

First, I want to say that I support Hibbert as I stated earlier. I think he will be fine come later in the season and playoff. I don't need him to slam and jump every time he gets a chance during season games. At 7'2" and his weight, we need him to be solid for years. Now, come playoffs, he better step it up and makes those quick roll moves in the post. See him jumping higher for clear rebounds and put backs with some slams. We know he possess the ability to do so.

Secondly, I was one that didn't want to sign him until like the deadline came and at that point we really didn't have a choice. But, prior to RFA begin I had made a comment that got larger then I wanted, but my comment as I remember was like, If Hibbert doesn't live up to this max rookie scale contract, I will feel sorry for him cause he will have a hard time dealing with it. We know he is a sensitive person, right? But with all this said, he wanted the contract and he signed the contract.

And lastly, He will deal with much more criticism on tv, newspaper, tweeter, fans in the stands, coaches and teamates then the chances of him coming to PD. And at the end of the day, it should do him more good then bad anyways or I guess I was correct acouple months before he signed that terrible contract that would only put more pressure on him, more pressure then he maybe able to handle. Time will tell.

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 08:00 PM
[QUOTE=Heisenberg;1584368]

I thought he might be but I wasn't sure. He certainly deserved to be even though people here think Foster was better....:cool: ...

i am assured in stating Foster is not a career lifelong backup player like some people believe on here ...

picasso
02-10-2013, 08:07 PM
Look at what MIA did to LA today, James and Dwade were camping in the paint. My oh my, It's not like us having Hibbert effects the opposing offensive players.

I just don't get it. I just don't get it. I have read every opposing teams forum during and post our games, They have said, Why isn't (Teams player) driving to the rim?

Responses, Yeah it's not like they have Hibbert or anything. We are blessed to have this defensive anchor, This isn't 2k where you can plug in a athletic C and win. You can't!

If you could than Javale would be a HOF by now, People need to stop looking at certain things and look at others. It's beating a dead horse. Without Hibbert we would be in the middle

of the pack defensively at best. Did you not see Lebron and wade drive in with no one meeting them at the rim? My goodness, At least our guys know that Hibbert is waiting.

Is he over payed? Of course! But big men in the NBA are a premium. If we didn't match I can swear to my life that we would be having a vice-cersa debate. Man why didn't we re-signed

Hibbert, He was a home grown talent. Stupid cheap front office, We had a nice young core together. One could argue we wouldn't be in the position we are currently in(11 games over .500)

without Hibbert. How many game saving blocks/defensive stops has he had all year? At the end of the day, We are not paying his contract. I'm not loosing any sleep over his money.

Hibbert is a talented Center, He isn't a try hard hustle player.

PacersPride
02-10-2013, 08:12 PM
i will say it again that I believe the idea of trading Roy right now is a bad idea so i have lost interest in the theard topic.

there has been three topics on Foster:

1) Foster is a carreer backup
2) Hans is better than Foster
3) Foster was Rodman type player

the first two were stated by posters and i respectfully disagree. since neither of those posters can backup their opinons with fact i will move ont my statement regarding Rodman.

I may have used Rodman as a point of reference. if anything Foster was at minimum a poor mans Rodman. see the article i posted below regarding his rebounding prowess.

Rodman got alot of pub on teams with larger market share and championhsship status. I give you Rodman was great at rebounding, and defense. offesively he was bad. he was basically Dale Davis bad on offense.

I believe the major advantage that Rodman would have on Foster is defense and i dont think its that significant. as far as rebounding i think Foster was as good as anyone. Foster was a very smart player and good passing big man.

I dont buy into the accolades all that much from the NBA.. because overall bigger market teams recieve all the recognition. Rodman dominated with Detroit but if i remember correctly he only played there 6 years or so, then SA, then Bulls, he seemed to decline quickly. Foster was very durable. if not for the limited ability he would have continued to start for almost a decade.

Foster is significantly better player than Hansbrough, hope Hansbrough gets there. If Hans were 6'10 and could gaurd both pf/c he would be more sought after.

Foster as a career backup is just laughable.

Foster may not have the same accolades as the worm but i at least believe Foster was a poor mans Rodman. although i believe stating that is a discredit to Fosters game. Foster is very undervalued by some on here. its a real shame.

during that 6 game series with detroit , reggie millers last run .. foster had a game of 21 rebounds , we dominated that game with Fosters effort and extended the series.

ChicagoJ
02-10-2013, 08:28 PM
Do you think anyone here cares about Roy Making a lot of money? Nobody gives a **** about that, we're all happy for him getting rich, the problem starts when that money counts against your cap and you are forced to dump Granger or not resign West because of the underperforming overpaid big fellow

My cap?

I'm just a fan. Of the team.

I'm nutz about the team. But I think some people need to know when/ where to draw the line. None of us on PD signed him to the contract and none of us on PD are going to have to trade him or sign another player. There are professionals who deal with that for a living. Along with countless people in cyberspace pretending they could do a better job when they barely know what 10% of the job requirements are for somebody in the front office.

This place is a lot more fun when we talk about the game of basketball.

Pacer Fan
02-10-2013, 08:40 PM
Jeff was a great valued player and a borderline starter for much of his career. His last contract was terrible vs production, but who knew he'd have chronic back issues.

Rodman and Foster should not be compared in anyway. Rodman was on a much different level and he was a huge part of the Bulls Championships. Rodman's play will never be noticed to It's fullest on paper. He was one hell of a tough mf and got in his opponents heads like no other.

I was always a huge fan of Foster.
I always admired Rodman's play.

BornReady
02-10-2013, 09:08 PM
My cap?

I'm just a fan. Of the team.

I'm nutz about the team. But I think some people need to know when/ where to draw the line. None of us on PD signed him to the contract and none of us on PD are going to have to trade him or sign another player. There are professionals who deal with that for a living. Along with countless people in cyberspace pretending they could do a better job when they barely know what 10% of the job requirements are for somebody in the front office.

This place is a lot more fun when we talk about the game of basketball.

oh come on, you don't think I can do a better job than Kahn? :P

WhoLovesYaBaby?
02-10-2013, 09:43 PM
Maybe if we all cry loud enough Brad Miller will come back.

clownskull
02-10-2013, 09:44 PM
i am frustrated with roy's fg%
but i'm not giving up on him.

Nuntius
02-11-2013, 02:30 AM
Roy can hit 150 straight 3 pointers and his percentage would not be as good as Chandlers(somebody on twitter posted this).

Because Chandler will keep shooting under the basket. He doesn't even dare to shoot farther than 3 feet of the basket ;)

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 07:50 AM
In fact the entire thread is explained in one go, shall I lock it now ?
Thanks for not closing the thread. In my opinion, one of the reasons for PD's success is the great restraint of the admins. When actual basketball discussion is taking place, even if many of the opinions are way out there, we should, imo, have a very, very long leash.

OlBlu
02-11-2013, 09:07 AM
Thanks for not closing the thread. In my opinion, one of the reasons for PD's success is the great restraint of the admins. When actual basketball discussion is taking place, even if many of the opinions are way out there, we should, imo, have a very, very long leash.

Well said and you are right, they are in general very tolerant.....:cool: ...

Derek2k3
02-11-2013, 09:11 AM
Because Chandler will keep shooting under the basket. He doesn't even dare to shoot farther than 3 feet of the basket ;)

Precisely. They never, ever run a play for Tyson, and if he isn't right under the basket he passes it out.

McKeyFan
02-11-2013, 10:07 AM
Well said and you are right, they are in general very tolerant.....:cool: ...

Lovely. Appreciation where appreciation is due.



:cool:

Pacergeek
02-11-2013, 10:22 AM
Roy does miss plenty of, by NBA standards, easy baskets. If we can get a center to strictly play defense, then Roy could be moved. Is he really better than Asik on Houston?

yoadknux
02-11-2013, 11:13 AM
My cap?

I'm just a fan. Of the team.

I'm nutz about the team. But I think some people need to know when/ where to draw the line. None of us on PD signed him to the contract and none of us on PD are going to have to trade him or sign another player. There are professionals who deal with that for a living. Along with countless people in cyberspace pretending they could do a better job when they barely know what 10% of the job requirements are for somebody in the front office.

This place is a lot more fun when we talk about the game of basketball.
I haven't read such an ignorant post in a long time. Had you bothered to read any of the comments I made on this thread, you wouldn't have found that I support trading Hibbert yet. I absolutely do not understand how you think I "pretend I'm part of the front office" in any way.

There is nothing wrong with being disappointed with a guy who doesn't live up to the bar he had set last year.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2013, 11:48 AM
I haven't read such an ignorant post in a long time. Had you bothered to read any of the comments I made on this thread, you wouldn't have found that I support trading Hibbert yet. I absolutely do not understand how you think I "pretend I'm part of the front office" in any way.

There is nothing wrong with being disappointed with a guy who doesn't live up to the bar he had set last year.

Huh?

Because you referred to it as "your" cap. Meaning, "my" cap.

I've totally lost interest in the cap. I have no control over it. I don't write the checks, sign the contracts, any of it. I'd rather discuss the game of basketball than the front office of basketball.

So don't call it "your" or "my" cap, call it Donnie Walsh's/ Pritchard's cap.

ChicagoJ
02-11-2013, 11:49 AM
oh come on, you don't think I can do a better job than Kahn? :P


Given that he was trained by the Pacers' front office, and still sucks, I think that says more about the difficulty of the job than for us in general and in cyberspace.

But I don't you well enough to completely answer. What's your resume/ experience?

Justin Tyme
02-11-2013, 01:54 PM
Because Chandler will keep shooting under the basket. He doesn't even dare to shoot farther than 3 feet of the basket ;)


Why do you care where Chandler shoots from to get his 11.5 PPG? The point is he's getting it at the rate of 66% which is "25%" higher than Hibbert. He has Melo, JR, Kidd, Felton, etc to shoot from the outside.

Chandler is also gettiing 11.2 RPG, and he's not getting them the "Murphy way" either. He's in the paint with his lunch pail and hardhat getting it done.

Maybe we have a difference of opinion of what the job of a center is. I don't know. What I do know is I'm not looking for a Mehet Okur type center, who is constantly straying outside the paint to shoot 3's and long 2's. I want a Pekovic or a Gortat type center. Someone who is hardnosed, wears a hardhat, and carries his lunch pail to work with him. If it means all they can do play in the paint around the basket, that's just fine with me as long as they can make the putbacks and bunnies at 50% or higher. Throw that in with ability to defend and you have my type CENTER.

"Hibbert has many good qualities", but unfortunately hardnose toughness isn't one of them. IMO, his fragile mentality is why he's struggling this season. His struggling has caused his lack of offensive play, thus the reason why posters feel, including myself, he's currently not worth his MAX contract. I can only hope Hibbert turns his offensive game around and quickly. He'll be needed in the playoffs for more than patrolling the paint. He needs to be able to play with the big boys offensively, and take advantage of the not so big boys offensively.

I previously mentioned Pekovic and Gortat. Both their contracts expire the summer of 014. "IF" Hibbert's struggling continues, I'd be interested in them. Yes, I know they will command a max type salary, but they are both mentally and physically tough players. Sorry, I like Dale Davis type big men, always have always will. JMOAA

Coopdog23
02-11-2013, 04:38 PM
WE'RE NOT TRADING ROY!!!!!! End of discussion

Nuntius
02-11-2013, 07:09 PM
Why do you care where Chandler shoots from to get his 11.5 PPG?

It's quite simple, Justin. Teams are not going to try to guard Chandler if he is outside of 3 feet from the basket. They will not guard him in the elbow. They will not guard him in the high post. They will not front him because he will rarely even attempt to get post position. They will only guard him when he rolls after a pick. Nothing else.

In any other case other than a Chandler PnR, the Knicks play with 4 guys on offense as Chandler is not a threat to score unless left alone right under the rim. He is not a scoring threat and he is not even a passing threat.

Hibbert forces teams to have at least on defender on him every single time. In fact, he more often than not forces teams to double him (especially by fronting him in the post and trapping him baseline). They cannot leave Hibbert uncovered because he will either score or find an open teammate for an easy score. Chandler cannot do this. Teams do not game plan against Chandler. They did game plan against Hibbert last season.



Chandler is also gettiing 11.2 RPG, and he's not getting them the "Murphy way" either. He's in the paint with his lunch pail and hardhat getting it done.

He's not getting them the Murhy way, that's true. He is in the paint and grabs them. But then again he is probably the only Knick player that consistently crashes the boards. Melo is the second best rebounder and the Knicks are a mediocre rebounding team in overall. Hence, there are available rebounds for him. If Chandler was a Pacers, I could assure you that he wouldn't average 10 rebounds per game. With Paul George, David West, George Hill and even Lance Stephenson (and DG when he returns) there are simply not a lot of boards to grab on the defensive end.



Maybe we have a difference of opinion of what the job of a center is. I don't know. What I do know is I'm not looking for a Mehet Okur type center, who is constantly straying outside the paint to shoot 3's and long 2's.

Are you trying to say that Hibbert is a Mehmet Okur type of Center? :hmm:

I'm not looking for a Mehmet Okur either. If I did, I wouldn't consider Drummond and Valanciunas as good as I do at the moment.



I want a Pekovic or a Gortat type center. Someone who is hardnosed, wears a hardhat, and carries his lunch pail to work with him. If it means all they can do play in the paint around the basket, that's just fine with me as long as they can make the putbacks and bunnies at 50% or higher. Throw that in with ability to defend and you have my type CENTER.

Pekovic's shot chart:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pekovni01/shooting/2013/

Gortat's shot chart:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gortama01/shooting/2013/

Hibbert's shot chart:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2013/

Chandler's shot chart:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandty01/shooting/2013/

Pekovic and Gortat are a lot closer to Hibbert offensively than you think. In fact, only Chandler refuses to shoot outside of 3 feet. Gortat has a nice jumper while Pekovic is more of a back to the basket type but they both attempt several shots from the 3 to 10 ft range. I didn't say that I want my Center to stretch the floor. But it's laughable to refuse to shoot from further than 3 feet!

PS: Pekovic is a below par defender at the moment, though. Gortat is decent but nowhere near Roy.

PS II: You will also notice something else in those shot charts. Hibbert has the lowest assisted rate of everyone else.



"Hibbert has many good qualities", but unfortunately hardnose toughness isn't one of them. IMO, his fragile mentality is why he's struggling this season. His struggling has caused his lack of offensive play, thus the reason why posters feel, including myself, he's currently not worth his MAX contract. I can only hope Hibbert turns his offensive game around and quickly. He'll be needed in the playoffs for more than patrolling the paint. He needs to be able to play with the big boys offensively, and take advantage of the not so big boys offensively.

Hibbert definitely plays hard on the court. Oh, and he shot 50% in the playoffs in the last season ;)



I previously mentioned Pekovic and Gortat. Both their contracts expire the summer of 014. "IF" Hibbert's struggling continues, I'd be interested in them. Yes, I know they will command a max type salary, but they are both mentally and physically tough players. Sorry, I like Dale Davis type big men, always have always will. JMOAA

Feel free to ask Suns fans about Gortat's mental and physical toughness.

I wouldn't take either one on Roy's contract. And I like both players.

The Future
02-11-2013, 07:36 PM
I can name 10 better defensive centers in the league and 29 better offensive centers in the league than Roy Hibbert.

Hicks
02-11-2013, 07:50 PM
I can name 10 better defensive centers in the league and 29 better offensive centers in the league than Roy Hibbert.

Go for it.

The Future
02-11-2013, 08:06 PM
11 defensive centers:
Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, Andrew Bynum, Marc Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, DeAndre Jordan, Larry Sanders

Offensively:
Dwight Howard, LaMarcus Aldridge, Brook Lopez, Al Jefferson, Chris Bosh, Tim Duncan, DeMarcus Cousins, Al Horford, Nikola Pekovic, Kevin Garnett, Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka, Amar'e Stoudemire, Nene, Nikola Vucevic, Joakim Noah, Marcin Gorat, Chris Kaman, Andrew Bogut, Spencer Hawes, Omer Asik, Tyson Chandler, Robin Lopez, Jason Thompson, Valanciunas, Drummond, Favors

J7F
02-11-2013, 08:42 PM
11 defensive centers:
Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, Andrew Bynum, Marc Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, DeAndre Jordan, Larry Sanders

Offensively:
Dwight Howard, LaMarcus Aldridge, Brook Lopez, Al Jefferson, Chris Bosh, Tim Duncan, DeMarcus Cousins, Al Horford, Nikola Pekovic, Kevin Garnett, Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka, Amar'e Stoudemire, Nene, Nikola Vucevic, Joakim Noah, Marcin Gorat, Chris Kaman, Andrew Bogut, Spencer Hawes, Omer Asik, Tyson Chandler, Robin Lopez, Jason Thompson, Valanciunas, Drummond, Favors

I'm sorry...

That is incorrect...

The Future
02-11-2013, 08:49 PM
I'm sorry...

That is incorrect...

No, stats prove this as well.

Nuntius
02-11-2013, 09:46 PM
11 defensive centers:
Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, Andrew Bynum, Marc Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, DeAndre Jordan, Larry Sanders


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html

Roy Hibbert is #2 in Defensive Rating behind Tim Duncan and tied for #3 along with Kevin Durant and David West in Defensive Win Shares behind Joakim Noah and Paul George.

So, at worse he is the #3 best defensive Center in the league.

Simply put, you are wrong! The stats prove it.

3rdStrike
02-11-2013, 10:09 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html

Roy Hibbert is #2 in Defensive Rating behind Tim Duncan and tied for #3 along with Kevin Durant and David West in Defensive Win Shares behind Joakim Noah and Paul George.

So, at worse he is the #3 best defensive Center in the league.

Simply put, you are wrong! The stats prove it.

Stats don't prove defense, sorry. DAVID WEST is in the same breath in those statistics. :rolleyes: I'm sorry, but if you think David West is a top anything defensive player then I've got some beachside property in Indy and some real fans to show you in Heat jerseys.

Hibbert really is an elite defender inside the paint, but he's every single bit as bad on offense. Every. Single. Bit.

vnzla81
02-11-2013, 10:12 PM
I'm sorry...

That is incorrect...

Not that I agree but his list is not that bad, can you explain why do you think he is incorrect?

D-BONE
02-11-2013, 10:18 PM
Stats don't prove defense, sorry. DAVID WEST is in the same breath in those statistics. :rolleyes: I'm sorry, but if you think David West is a top anything defensive player then I've got some beachside property in Indy and some real fans to show you in Heat jerseys.

Hibbert really is an elite defender inside the paint, but he's every single bit as bad on offense. Every. Single. Bit.

Yep. 5 for 18 tonight. 7 footer who can't consistently convert bunnies at the rim. If dude could just make 50% of layups he'd easily average 15 per game. Honestly, I don't care if he's part of our offensive game plan. He can specialize in defense, but for the love of all that's holy, can't you hit some of the point blank shots?

The Future
02-11-2013, 10:55 PM
Ever since the brawl, Indy's expectations have been quite low.

Some people were actually thinking Hibbert's 5-18 game tonight was PRODUCTIVE.

smh

Cactus Jax
02-11-2013, 11:54 PM
11 defensive centers:
Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, Andrew Bynum, Marc Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, DeAndre Jordan, Larry Sanders


This season Dwight has been very lazy/poor defensively. Ibaka isn't a center, Bynum's been out the whole year, Bogut's barely played, and I wouldn't really call Sanders a center either. And Kevin Garnett is only a center because they got noone else on the Celtics that plays big.

Hibbert has played like **** this season offensively, but defensively he's been pretty good, he's not that great against bigs that can shoot outside, but blocking shots and covering defense for others he's been pretty good.

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 04:59 AM
Stats don't prove defense, sorry. DAVID WEST is in the same breath in those statistics. :rolleyes: I'm sorry, but if you think David West is a top anything defensive player then I've got some beachside property in Indy and some real fans to show you in Heat jerseys.

Hibbert really is an elite defender inside the paint, but he's every single bit as bad on offense. Every. Single. Bit.

Defensive win shares do not prove defense, that's true. That's because it mostly judges team defense and not individual D. But defensive rating can prove defense.

OlBlu
02-12-2013, 08:41 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_leaders.html

Roy Hibbert is #2 in Defensive Rating behind Tim Duncan and tied for #3 along with Kevin Durant and David West in Defensive Win Shares behind Joakim Noah and Paul George.

So, at worse he is the #3 best defensive Center in the league.

Simply put, you are wrong! The stats prove it.

Stats rarely prove anything. Observation is almost always better. I agree with you that Hibbert is better than a couple of posters are making him out to be but number two defensively because of a stat sets of a :bs: ... alarm. I don't think Hibber is the third best defensive center in the league but I don't think he is below the 11th best either. :cool: ...

The Big Smooth
02-12-2013, 08:53 AM
11 defensive centers:
Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, Andrew Bynum, Marc Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, DeAndre Jordan, Larry Sanders

Offensively:
Dwight Howard, LaMarcus Aldridge, Brook Lopez, Al Jefferson, Chris Bosh, Tim Duncan, DeMarcus Cousins, Al Horford, Nikola Pekovic, Kevin Garnett, Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka, Amar'e Stoudemire, Nene, Nikola Vucevic, Joakim Noah, Marcin Gorat, Chris Kaman, Andrew Bogut, Spencer Hawes, Omer Asik, Tyson Chandler, Robin Lopez, Jason Thompson, Valanciunas, Drummond, Favors

I do not think Ibaka, Bogut and Jordan are better defensively than Roy. The only players that are significantly better defensively on that list than Roy are Noah, Howard (although, not at the moment) and Duncan.


Offensively, it's hard for me to justify Roy being better than any of those. He should be better than all but 4 or 5 on that list, but he just isn't this year. If he could make his shots from within 5 feet of the basket, he would be a top 5 offensive center averaging 17-18ppg.

I was directly behind the bench last night in the 4th row ($30 for the tickets from a scalper....soooo expensive :rolleyes:) and it was really pathetic to see how far off some of Roy's shots were. You don't really pick up on that on TV. But when you have a good angle like that, you see how badly Roy is missing shots that should be layups. At this point, I don't know what it is. His mid-range game seems to be back to normal, but he looks as bad as he did as a rookie underneath the basket. It's sad when you would rather have Lance Stevenson taking a shot under the basket instead of your 7'2" center.

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 09:05 AM
Stats rarely prove anything. Observation is almost always better.

Stats do not tell the whole story most of the time but they are far more objective than observation or the "eye test".

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 09:13 AM
I do not think Ibaka, Bogut and Jordan are better defensively than Roy. The only players that are significantly better defensively on that list than Roy are Noah, Howard (although, not at the moment) and Duncan.


Bogut is a great defender. He is just not healthy enough to show it most of the time.

Ibaka and Jordan are overrated defenders, imo. They are weakside shot-blockers and nothing more. They are not good man defenders and struggle to defend the post.

Pacer Fan
02-12-2013, 09:24 AM
I'm just wondering what you guys think.

I really don't have a desire to trade Hibbert, but I can't help but wonder if he could be traded and if so, exactly what in return.

Al Jefferson expiring?
Andrew Bogut?
Tyrus Thomas and Henderson?
Gortat and Beasley?

Is this about right? Is he valued more or less to other teams?

I know what he means to this team, but what about other teams viewing him as?

Again, this isn't to hate on him, just trying to get a consensus.

BillS
02-12-2013, 09:40 AM
Stats rarely prove anything. Observation is almost always better.

As I have said over and over again, stats are facts. You can't argue that the numbers are wrong, they are what they are.

If you think a stat is not showing the entire picture, you need to be able to explain WHY the number is what it is but doesn't mean what people think it means.

The problem with the "eye test" is that too many people see what isn't there or miss what is there, then remain stubbornly fixated on what they think they saw instead of understanding what is actually happening.

In reality, to interpret statistics well, you need to use both the numbers and observation to make the pieces fit.

BornReady
02-12-2013, 09:55 AM
Given that he was trained by the Pacers' front office, and still sucks, I think that says more about the difficulty of the job than for us in general and in cyberspace.

But I don't you well enough to completely answer. What's your resume/ experience?

Haha it was just a joke. My experience goes as far as fantasy basketball with my friends :D

billbradley
02-12-2013, 10:24 AM
If anyone has followed my posts, I usually defend Hibbert pointing out his great D and just ask for higher FG%s. After watching a Hibby miss a layup at the rim to reach the 4 for 15 mark INSTEAD OF KEEPING THE BALL HIGH AND DUNKING THE BALL, I say bench him for a game.

Hibby's confidence and emotions cannot be coddled anymore, because it's not working. There was a time when Hibbert would really come out with a fire and hunger against Lopez. I get that Hibbert does ALL the extra stuff, put in ALL the extra work, but his head isn't right and what we're doing isn't working.

Bench Roy a game or two.

ChicagoJ
02-12-2013, 10:39 AM
Stats do not tell the whole story most of the time but they are far more objective than observation or the "eye test".

So what. You're trying to analyze or measure something that is -- at the minimum -- as qualitative as it is quantitative. And perhaps significantly more qualitative than quantitative.

Stats can be helpful here. One would first need to agree on the selection of stats, and that is very qualitative itself. That's about as strong of a statement as you can make about the stats.

The Big Smooth
02-12-2013, 10:51 AM
If anyone has followed my posts, I usually defend Hibbert pointing out his great D and just ask for higher FG%s. After watching a Hibby miss a layup at the rim to reach the 4 for 15 mark INSTEAD OF KEEPING THE BALL HIGH AND DUNKING THE BALL, I say bench him for a game.

Hibby's confidence and emotions cannot be coddled anymore, because it's not working. There was a time when Hibbert would really come out with a fire and hunger against Lopez. I get that Hibbert does ALL the extra stuff, put in ALL the extra work, but his head isn't right and what we're doing isn't working.

Bench Roy a game or two.

I have to agree. There is no excuse for the missed layups. He is the tallest player in the NBA, yet he can't make a shot from 18 inches from the basket. Bench Roy on Wednesday. Let him have a whole week to think about it. Ian is playing well enough to warrant more playing time.

Like I said in a previous post, it's not just that Roy is missing easy shots, it's how badly he is missing them. You could tell that most of his shots weren't going in last night as soon as he released. He was 3 feet from the basket, yet he was well short. Maybe Roy should look up I-65 at Noah. Noah is much weaker than Roy, yet he goes up strong like he has 40 lbs on Roy. With his length, anything within the charge circle should be a dunk.

West90
02-12-2013, 11:11 AM
Hey guys, first time poster here been watching the board for a couple years too long. Anyways, please for the love of god do not trade Hilbert. I believe he is playing a little below his contract, but not by much on how much a quality center will cost you these days. His defense is superb and that's most important. Offensively he has been struggling yes,but there's times out there when i watch him and i say there's not 5 centers in this league than can make a 8 foot left handed hook shot the way he is capable of. He is 26 but still has growth to do. just be patient with him. Anyway's cheers to the board :cheers:

Pacer Fan
02-12-2013, 11:19 AM
If anyone has followed my posts, I usually defend Hibbert pointing out his great D and just ask for higher FG%s. After watching a Hibby miss a layup at the rim to reach the 4 for 15 mark INSTEAD OF KEEPING THE BALL HIGH AND DUNKING THE BALL, I say bench him for a game.

Hibby's confidence and emotions cannot be coddled anymore, because it's not working. There was a time when Hibbert would really come out with a fire and hunger against Lopez. I get that Hibbert does ALL the extra stuff, put in ALL the extra work, but his head isn't right and what we're doing isn't working.

Bench Roy a game or two.

I agree, bench him against the Bobcats and make him think about it during Allstar break. Might do him some good and it sure isn't going to hurt his production.

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 12:14 PM
If anyone has followed my posts, I usually defend Hibbert pointing out his great D and just ask for higher FG%s. After watching a Hibby miss a layup at the rim to reach the 4 for 15 mark INSTEAD OF KEEPING THE BALL HIGH AND DUNKING THE BALL, I say bench him for a game.

Hibby's confidence and emotions cannot be coddled anymore, because it's not working. There was a time when Hibbert would really come out with a fire and hunger against Lopez. I get that Hibbert does ALL the extra stuff, put in ALL the extra work, but his head isn't right and what we're doing isn't working.

Bench Roy a game or two.

Why do you hate Hibbert?

Phree Refill
02-12-2013, 12:15 PM
The likelihood of Vogel benching Roy is about the same as Artest and JOB working for this franchise simultaneously in any capacity ever again.

billbradley
02-12-2013, 12:15 PM
Why do you hate Hibbert?

I like Roy Hibbert...

billbradley
02-12-2013, 12:16 PM
The likelihood of Vogel benching Roy is about the same as Artest and JOB ever working for this franchise simultaneously in any capacity ever again.

I agree, I doubt it will happen.

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 12:17 PM
I like Roy Hibbert...

It doesn't look like it, stop hating on Roy!!

billbradley
02-12-2013, 12:17 PM
It doesn't look like it, stop hating on Roy!!

troll city

Pacer Fan
02-12-2013, 12:20 PM
The likelihood of Vogel benching Roy is about the same as Artest and JOB working for this franchise simultaneously in any capacity ever again.

Not sure about that, Frank benched DJ, then Gerald and just benched Paul last night for crappy play.

Oh wait, Paul fouled out! Duh is me!

BillS
02-12-2013, 12:25 PM
I'm really not sure how benching Roy helps him get his head together. Seems it would do the opposite, and if this was JOB trying to do it everyone would be screaming at him for ruining Roy's confidence by doing so.

That said, I actually would be willing to see what Ian does with the starters. While the Bobcats game would be a good one to give Roy a boost, it would also be a good one to see what Ian is able to do as a starter.

billbradley
02-12-2013, 12:30 PM
I'm really not sure how benching Roy helps him get his head together. Seems it would do the opposite, and if this was JOB trying to do it everyone would be screaming at him for ruining Roy's confidence by doing so.

That said, I actually would be willing to see what Ian does with the starters. While the Bobcats game would be a good one to give Roy a boost, it would also be a good one to see what Ian is able to do as a starter.

I'm no coach, but it helped DJ.

Derek2k3
02-12-2013, 12:31 PM
I'm really not sure how benching Roy helps him get his head together. Seems it would do the opposite, and if this was JOB trying to do it everyone would be screaming at him for ruining Roy's confidence by doing so.

That said, I actually would be willing to see what Ian does with the starters. While the Bobcats game would be a good one to give Roy a boost, it would also be a good one to see what Ian is able to do as a starter.

I'm personally holding out until the team is whole before changing things up.

Hopefully Danny is back tomorrow, and we can run a month with our true starting 5. Then see how Roy responds.

In wins, Roy is shooting about 43%. In losses, 38%. There is a direct correlation to his efficiency and Pacer wins, and it's vitally important to get him engaged/in a rhythm by the time April rolls along. I believe in Frank, as well as Roy. Roy pisses me off, sure, but anyone who works as hard as he does has the opportunity to turn it around.

When he was really struggling, he would get super tentative and defer non stop. The last few games, it's clear Frank is telling him to get shots up. Short term pain for long term gain in my opinion. He can get through this, the investment right now is worth it.

In reality, Roy isn't making any fewer shots (4.2 as opposed to a career average of 4.4) he's just taking 1 extra shot per game. He's close to getting this figured out.

Derek2k3
02-12-2013, 12:33 PM
I'm no coach, but it helped DJ.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but Roy is a different animal. He definitely struggles with confidence, and a benching could be hugely problematic. Big risk for a young $14M center. If DJ didn't respond well, whatever, we can overcome that. If Roy doesn't? That's a problem.

This reminds me a bit of Noah's struggle after his big contract last season. He worked his way out of it eventually, and so will Roy.

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 12:37 PM
Maybe Roy should look up I-65 at Noah. Noah is much weaker than Roy, yet he goes up strong like he has 40 lbs on Roy.

Noah has much better balance and a stronger base than Roy.

billbradley
02-12-2013, 12:40 PM
I wouldn't disagree with that, but Roy is a different animal. He definitely struggles with confidence, and a benching could be hugely problematic. Big risk for a young $14M center. If DJ didn't respond well, whatever, we can overcome that. If Roy doesn't? That's a problem.

This reminds me a bit of Noah's struggle after his big contract last season. He worked his way out of it eventually, and so will Roy.

So what you're saying is Roy could play worse? Because what we're doing now isn't working. Unless it's Danny being out (which it's not) just saying "Roy will come around" is not the answer anymore.

J7F
02-12-2013, 12:44 PM
Not that I agree but his list is not that bad, can you explain why do you think he is incorrect?

Namely on his defensive list... I could tell at a glance...

I would love to dig up some data but don't really have time to...

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 12:53 PM
So what you're saying is Roy could play worse? Because what we're doing now isn't working.

It isn't working offensively. But it is working defensively. He is confident on the defensive end. He knows that his teammates and coaches appreciate it and his teammates know that he has their backs.

If Frank breaks his confidence he could start struggling on the defensive end as well. Which would be horrible.



Unless it's Danny being out (which it's not) just saying "Roy will come around" is not the answer anymore.

Personally, I think that Danny's return will help Roy a lot. Teams will not be able to double him as much as they do when he has Danny on the wing ready for the kick out.

billbradley
02-12-2013, 01:01 PM
It isn't working offensively. But it is working defensively. He is confident on the defensive end. He knows that his teammates and coaches appreciate it and his teammates know that he has their backs.

If Frank breaks his confidence he could start struggling on the defensive end as well. Which would be horrible.

To me, that's a lose lose. Finding the cup is one thing. But blocking shot and communicating with your team to know where to be? Staying on the court? Roy can't be that fragile where he forgets how to do those things because he doesn't start a game. If he is, yikes.



Personally, I think that Danny's return will help Roy a lot. Teams will not be able to double him as much as they do when he has Danny on the wing ready for the kick out.

I posted Mannix saying that, and I agreed it could be possible. But the reality is Danny isn't going to help Roy make a wide open dunk, instead throwing up a finger roll, as Center, of the back of the rim.

Naptown_Seth
02-12-2013, 02:07 PM
I'm no coach, but it helped DJ.

I disagree. Apart from hitting the 3 closer to his career rate, I find his game to be just as useless now as it was before. Terrible defense, abandons his man at the hint of a PnR, doesn't get guys the ball half as well as Lance does on the high PnR, doesn't really do anything with penetration deeper into the lane (many forced misses at the rim in traffic), doesn't run much of a break (again, see Lance).

Ditto Green, although his return PT is still extremely limited.


I've seen one guy "fix" his game this year - Paul coming back and just taking tons of volume jumpers post-GSW which somehow got his whole game/confidence up a notch.




Hibbert almost needs to go up to Ft Wayne and play against guys that are clearly weaker just to get his inside confidence back. At the rim he looks defeated before he even tries to make plays, putbacks, etc. The dude needs a sabbatical, Australian outback walkabout at this point. He's been so tough on defense, but his mind is not right and it's not about to get right just by sticking to the same routine in the same environment.

Since86
02-12-2013, 02:14 PM
Frank needs to stop forcing him the ball so much. There's nothing uglier to watch than the Pacers make a concentrated effort to get Roy the ball, for him to get blocked by the front of the rim.

He needs to get his points off of put backs and dump offs. Forget this postup idea, until he starts showing the ability to handle it.

billbradley
02-12-2013, 02:17 PM
I disagree. Apart from hitting the 3 closer to his career rate, I find his game to be just as useless now as it was before. Terrible defense, abandons his man at the hint of a PnR, doesn't get guys the ball half as well as Lance does on the high PnR, doesn't really do anything with penetration deeper into the lane (many forced misses at the rim in traffic), doesn't run much of a break (again, see Lance).

I disagree. I think he had better control over himself and the game after he was benched. DJ even got us a couple wins when Hill went down.

Derek2k3
02-12-2013, 02:21 PM
I disagree. Apart from hitting the 3 closer to his career rate, I find his game to be just as useless now as it was before. Terrible defense, abandons his man at the hint of a PnR, doesn't get guys the ball half as well as Lance does on the high PnR, doesn't really do anything with penetration deeper into the lane (many forced misses at the rim in traffic), doesn't run much of a break (again, see Lance).


Good point. DJ has actually crashed back to earth after an ok January.

Started the season shooting 25%-29%. December, he jumped that to 35% (Still awful.) Then he had his best month in January, shooting 41% :laugh: and 6.6 points in 21 minutes.

As soon as he goes back to the bench? 33% shooting, 5 points in 15 minutes.


PG bounced back because he wanted it "that" badly. He went and got it.

I'm slightly concerned that Roy doesn't have the fortitude to do that, he's gonna need more help. In fact, I think it was Friday night, Orlando "took" a rebound from Roy, and big fella tweaked. Yelled, slapped his hands, shook his head, then slowly made his way up court. It was obvious he was ticked about losing the rebound, and that kind of attitude isn't what he needs to be cultivating IMO.

Honestly, I think it'd be Franks greatest act to get Roy on track. I think he will, but it's certainly no slam dunk. Like I said before, I believe in Frank/Roy together.

Coopdog23
02-12-2013, 02:41 PM
I understand he's having a bad year so far, but give the man a break. PG and West shoot most of the shots. He's not at the stage of his career when he has all of the tools to dominate the game. His upside is tremendous and he has the potential to be a great center. We CANNOT trade him

Hailey12
02-12-2013, 03:01 PM
I don't know if anyone has said or suggested this but I think Hibbert should never finish tight games. When it gets down to crunch time he is just to slow to help and react to passes or rebound. I don't mind starting him and him getting the majority of the minutes at Center he does a good job keeping a little pressure off of West. I just feel like when we get to the end of those close games, teams know Hibbert is suspect on offence and the Pacers don't even look for him to score anyway. Then there are those loose ball rebounds or the ones that come right to him that he doesn't get, because he was slow to react or doesn't hold on to the ball tight.

What I would like to see, is if the game is close within 8 points under 5 min. SIT Hibbert out. I would rather see any other big in there. We really don't have a big that's a liability at the line so I say we play the quicker bigs who can run down those loose ball rebounds, and hustle to get those tough rebounds at the end of the games were calls seem a little harder to get. You see it all the time where the more aggressive player is rewarded and Hibbert is the least aggressive player in the league. Just one time this season I saw him go up hard for a rebound and dunk it with 2 hands.

I will also add I was a Hibbert supporter when we drafted him and up until the new contract. I think its a little much for what he provides. We need energy at the end of games and Hibbert just doesn't have any left at the end of games. I was surprised Jeff didn't get anymore PT after he was having a career night. Without a doubt we would have won with him in to finish the last 2 min last night before OT.

CJ Jones
02-12-2013, 03:09 PM
Frank needs to stop forcing him the ball so much. There's nothing uglier to watch than the Pacers make a concentrated effort to get Roy the ball, for him to get blocked by the front of the rim.

He needs to get his points off of put backs and dump offs. Forget this postup idea, until he starts showing the ability to handle it.


This. Frank's foolish for wasting half our first quarters force feedind Hibbert. It throws everyone elses rhytym off. Im starting to think Frank's strategy is actually making it harder on Roy to snap out of his funk.

Ace E.Anderson
02-12-2013, 03:22 PM
His upside is tremendous

Not sure if you're serious?

BillS
02-12-2013, 03:26 PM
This. Frank's foolish for wasting half our first quarters force feedind Hibbert. It throws everyone elses rhytym off. Im starting to think Frank's strategy is actually making it harder on Roy to snap out of his funk.

Just another chance to point out how things change. Earlier this year, much less for the last few years, the biggest criticism of the offense was failing to feed Hibbert in the post.

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 03:28 PM
This. Frank's foolish for wasting half our first quarters force feedind Hibbert. It throws everyone elses rhytym off. Im starting to think Frank's strategy is actually making it harder on Roy to snap out of his funk.

I have been saying this forever, they should stop posting up Hibbert and if he gets the ball tell him to shoot a jumper, maybe the clown had it right? the clown wanted to make him a jump shooter, maybe that is what he should be.

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 03:38 PM
He needs to get his points off of put backs and dump offs. Forget this postup idea, until he starts showing the ability to handle it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01/shooting/2013/

Actually, his hook shot is solid. 79 / 148 equals 53.4%. If he could only shot that hook, we would be alright. But it's the tips (27 / 74, 36.5%) and lay-ups (40 / 101, 39.6%) that are the problem.

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 03:40 PM
I posted Mannix saying that, and I agreed it could be possible. But the reality is Danny isn't going to help Roy make a wide open dunk, instead throwing up a finger roll, as Center, of the back of the rim.

It will keep him from getting constantly double teamed and hacked down low like he is now, though.

PS: He couldn't dunk that last finger roll if you are referring to this. He was too far away.

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 03:43 PM
Then there are those loose ball rebounds or the ones that come right to him that he doesn't get, because he was slow to react or doesn't hold on to the ball tight.


Or because he was challeging the shot that got us the initial miss to begin with and so wasn't in position to get the rebound ;)

billbradley
02-12-2013, 03:47 PM
It will keep him from getting constantly double teamed and hacked down low like he is now, though.

PS: He couldn't dunk that last finger roll if you are referring to this. He was too far away.

I was right there, I don't think he was too far, but that's besides the point. I'm talking about plays where Hibbert has the opportunity to keep the ball high and dunk. Or grab the ball and go up. Or missed shots around the rim. Things that have nothing to do with Danny. Falling down, free throws.

Pacer Fan
02-12-2013, 04:30 PM
So what you're saying is Roy could play worse? Because what we're doing now isn't working. Unless it's Danny being out (which it's not) just saying "Roy will come around" is not the answer anymore.

As I agree with the notion of benching Roy, I don't see how we all can't just say "Roy will come around". We really have no choice but to think positive among ourselves. We are stuck with the big fella, like it or not. Isn't that right? And as much as I loved the fact that we picked up Ian and he is playing as well as I thought he would, he isn't gonna carry us to far as a starter.

The perfect opportunity is to bench him right now, let him soak on it during the break and get back to a higher level of play for the 2nd half of the season!

billbradley
02-12-2013, 04:34 PM
As I agree with the notion of benching Roy, I don't see how we all can't just say "Roy will come around". We really have no choice but to think positive among ourselves. We are stuck with the big fella, like it or not. Isn't that right? And as much as I loved the fact that we picked up Ian and he is playing as well as I thought he would, he isn't gonna carry us to far as a starter.

The perfect opportunity is to bench him right now, let him soak on it during the break and get back to a higher level of play for the 2nd half of the season!

We can say that, the coaching staff has to stop saying it at some point.

Pacer Fan
02-12-2013, 05:19 PM
We can say that, the coaching staff has to stop saying it at some point.
Yep, Actions are stronger then words at times...bench him!

McKeyFan
02-12-2013, 05:23 PM
What if Bird left because he didn't want to retain Roy but Simon did? (That has been speculated around here.)

That, along with Lance breaking out, has Larry with lots of last laughs when the boys get together.

Nuntius
02-12-2013, 05:27 PM
I'm talking about plays where Hibbert has the opportunity to keep the ball high and dunk. Or grab the ball and go up. Or missed shots around the rim.

I don't think that anyone disagrees with that. But even the easy plays are harder when you have 2-3 people pounding on your weak base.



free throws.

He is shooting very wel from the line in 2013. He was horrible at it at the start of the season, though.

Sollozzo
02-12-2013, 05:28 PM
What if Bird left because he didn't want to retain Roy but Simon did? (That has been speculated around here.)

That, along with Lance breaking out, has Larry with lots of last laughs when the boys get together.


I think Bird would have re-signed Hibbert. I think about any GM would have.

Pacer Fan
02-12-2013, 08:09 PM
I think Bird would have re-signed Hibbert. I think about any GM would have.

My fake GM self would have traded Hibbert at last years trade deadline. I would have Granger last summer. I would be trading West at this deadline. I would be plucking some of the best young talent in the league. My core would be

J. McGee
D. Cousins
P. George
K. Thompson
M. Ellis

G. Hill
F. Garcia
C. Brewer
J. Henson
I. Mahinmi
A. Biedrins
AJ. Price
J. Leuer

And my coach would be Brad Stevens

And I would be working hard on ridding of Biedrins. But my draft picks would be limited to help with this.

It is fun to pretend.

vnzla81
02-12-2013, 08:17 PM
I think Bird would have re-signed Hibbert. I think about any GM would have.

Not trying to get into an argument but I remember the time Bird was trying to get not only West but also Nene, the report is that he wanted both, I'm not really sure if Bird would have re-signed Roy with Nene here.



I'm not trying to start the Nene argument by the way.

OlBlu
02-12-2013, 08:20 PM
As I agree with the notion of benching Roy, I don't see how we all can't just say "Roy will come around". We really have no choice but to think positive among ourselves. We are stuck with the big fella, like it or not. Isn't that right? And as much as I loved the fact that we picked up Ian and he is playing as well as I thought he would, he isn't gonna carry us to far as a starter.

The perfect opportunity is to bench him right now, let him soak on it during the break and get back to a higher level of play for the 2nd half of the season!

You want to bench him when he is playing great defense because he is a point short of his career average per game? This is silly....:cool: ...

Pacer Fan
02-12-2013, 08:37 PM
You want to bench him when he is playing great defense because he is a point short of his career average per game? This is silly....:cool: ...
I think it's silly to say my thought is silly when your rebuttal is silly. We'll just be silly together...on the count of 3...1...2...3

Pacer Fan
02-12-2013, 08:41 PM
Not trying to get into an argument but I remember the time Bird was trying to get not only West but also Nene, the report is that he wanted both, I'm not really sure if Bird would have re-signed Roy with Nene here.



I'm not trying to start the Nene argument by the way.
I never heard, seen a report that Bird wanted both. He was simply trying to meet them and feel the water and then make a sales pitch! If you don't want to make an argument then try not to respond with weak material. You might want to post something that says Bird was wanting to sign both, then you will likely not have a argument...just sayin!

Coopdog23
02-12-2013, 09:24 PM
Not sure if you're serious?

Very

MvPlumlee
02-13-2013, 03:27 AM
Not trying to get into an argument but I remember the time Bird was trying to get not only West but also Nene, the report is that he wanted both, I'm not really sure if Bird would have re-signed Roy with Nene here.

Only if their plan would have worked and they could limit the buzz around Hibbert by limiting his minutes in favor of Nene. Keep in mind they were also counting on Foster.
Kind of what they tried to do with Hill, benching him for someone worse in Collison.
They could have had the same in mind for Paul George. If Granger would have stayed healthy, it's far less likely he would have taken over from Danny. Mostly because he is not a very good SG on offense.

It's a business, if you can keep a good player partly in the shadow for a while, it's less likely agents will pull you a Hibbert. You never know of course with the Paul Allens of this world...

It all failed :-p

cgg
02-13-2013, 05:32 AM
If you think benching Roy Hibbert will help, then I doubt you have been following his career.

Johanvil
02-13-2013, 09:26 AM
Not advocating him to be benched but the Satan has long gone.

*astrisk*
02-13-2013, 09:54 AM
You want to bench him when he is playing great defense because he is a point short of his career average per game? This is silly....:cool: ...

Playing great defense is the only thing he is doing well, besides missing shots. What is silly is that you point to his career ppg average instead of his ppg avg from last season. Which he is averaging 3 less ppg (and the lowest percentage of his career by far)... He is also getting to the line 1.5 times less per game and shooting at the lowest percentage of his career (since his rookie season)when he gets there.

I appreciate Big Guy for the positive attention he brings us off the court. But, I don't appreciate when it may have a negative impact on the team. Going to Gagnam Style practice after basketball practice every evening in the preseason was unnecessary. Maybe thats not fair, but its reality and if you are going to go there, you better not be missing bunnies.

He got a mini-max deal from us, I expect better than benefitting from an off-season rule of emphasis that rewards you for being the tree that you were born to be. Glad we finally figured out how to use that rule to his advantage. (It only took 4 years) It happens to be the only area he has improved in.

I think he is still important for our growth as a team, but he's got to live up to that paycheck. But, I don't have a problem with people suggesting that we should look to move him, either...

After you have been given a mini-max contract, we expect that you will infact, be working harder to earn that money and not apparently, getting worse.

Hicks
02-13-2013, 09:57 AM
As long as the defense is there, limiting his minutes is a mistake. You simply stop giving him so many touches in the post while maintaining his minutes.

imawhat
02-13-2013, 10:05 AM
I think Bird would have re-signed Hibbert. I think about any GM would have.

I've read the rumor that Bird didn't want to resign Hibbert. And I've also read he wanted both Nene and West. I think he had a master plan in place.

Derek2k3
02-13-2013, 10:41 AM
I've read the rumor that Bird didn't want to resign Hibbert. And I've also read he wanted both Nene and West. I think he had a master plan in place.

Yeah, I remember thinking "Ridiculous Nene got $65M over 5 years" followed by Roy getting about a $2M/year increase on that. Man. Nene is shooting 50%, scoring 13 and grabbing 7. Biggest issue with him is injuries...followed by his rather poor defense in the post.

Naptown_Seth
02-13-2013, 05:32 PM
As long as the defense is there, limiting his minutes is a mistake. You simply stop giving him so many touches in the post while maintaining his minutes.

It's funny because there was a game maybe 3-4 weeks ago where Ian came in and his defense was so bad that I found myself very anxious to get Roy back on the floor. Normally Roy's offense is so bad that you think "well we can live with Ian for a bit and it's not so bad", but on that night it was painful.

Ian just isn't getting the same scrutiny due to his salary, but he's far less consistent than Roy. Ian's version of Roy's missed shots at the rim is his inability to hold onto the basketball. It's easy as big a problem as Roy's shooting touch.

Ian will lose the ball OOB, or have it get tipped around or stolen, or just fumble it enough that he has to kick it out and restart the set. And I'm saying this as a big fan of Ian. I want him to be better just like I want Roy to be better. I want them to have success because they seem like nice players and the kind of guys you want to represent the Pacers.

But this delusion that Ian is doing as much as Roy is just bad blood over his salary.



It sucks that Roy is struggling and something needs to get fixed, but how and what seems to me to be a very grey area. I don't think it's a simple answer.

gummy
02-13-2013, 10:58 PM
That's not what literally means.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/literally

BlueNGold
02-13-2013, 11:07 PM
I have no complaints about Roy and Ian. I'm just happy we don't have Troy Murphy, Solomon Jones and Lou Amundson patrolling the lane anymore. We are around .600 folks. Enjoy it!

PacersRule
02-14-2013, 12:11 AM
We have seen numerous times that benching a player can possibly jump start his game. A recent example would be DJ Augustine. Though its not like DJ has been lighting it up lately, at least he hits open threes and doesn't commit silly turnovers. When a coach benches a player, it sends the message that the player is not trying hard enough. This is not the case with hibbert. Hibbert cares about his play. He really wants to improve his shooting percentage. I heard someone say that right before Christmas pacers had a day off, hibbert called frank Vogel and asked if an assistant coach could go to the fieldhouse and practice his hook shots with him. Frank didn't want to disturb the other coaches family time so he went himself.
Yes I do want to bang my head on the table when Hibbert misses point blank put backs. But he's really defending at a high level and trying on offense. A lot of people are upset because with that massive salary we expect better offensive production. While I too am pretty upset with Hibbert so far this season, I'd like to see how he plays when Danny comes back. With PG's improvement, if Danny could play at 80% the level he was at last year and Hibbert regain last year's efficiency we'd be golden.