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Trophy
02-07-2013, 03:29 PM
Great article by Mike Wells.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130207/SPORTS04/302070338/Pacers-Insider-They-re-having-great-season-where-fans-


The Indiana Pacers are sitting atop the Central Division. The New York Knicks are looking over their shoulders at the Pacers, who are just 1 1/2 games back for the second seed in the Eastern Conference.

The Pacers have been model citizens on and off the court. Three players -- Roy Hibbert, George Hill and Paul George -- purchased season tickets for select fans to attend every home game for free.

But where are the paying customers?

Fans said they wouldn't return until there was both a competitive team on the court and a roster of players whose off-court behavior did not include visits to strip clubs.

The Pacers followed suit by cleaning house and putting together a team the city would embrace.

The fans?

The Pacers are still waiting on them to hold up their end of the bargain.

Look around Bankers Life Fieldhouse when teams other than Miami, Chicago or the Los Angeles Lakers are in town.

There are lots of empty green seats in the building even though the Pacers bring a 15-game home winning streak into Friday's game with Toronto.

About the only green owner Herb Simon wants to see is the kind with Ulysses S. Grant and Benjamin Franklin on it.

The slogan goes, "In 49 states, it's just basketball. But this is Indiana." That must be a reference to the Indiana Hoosiers rather than the Pacers, who continue to be among the NBA bottom feeders in attendance. They are currently 26th in the NBA, averaging 14,592 fans in a building that seats 18,165.

The Pacers have had just four sellouts this season; opening night, both Miami games and against Chicago earlier this week.

While they have increased attendance by 1,320 fans a game from last season, that's still not enough.

"It's very disappointing," Pacers guard and Indianapolis-native George Hill said. "The fans show up when we play the marquee teams, but they show up wearing the marquee team's clothes. We feed off them. As much as we can get people there, the better off we're going to be."

Fans had every right to stay from the fieldhouse during what Larry Bird admitted was a long rebuilding period. The Pacers were an embarrassment at times to the city. The problems ran the gamut from guns and strip clubs to hanging with people wanted on murder charges.

Having to call Pacers media relations guru David Benner during the early morning hours after the Pacers had yet another run-in with the law got old pretty quick.

Those days have become distant memories.

The Pacers are headed back to the playoffs for the third straight season with players who care about the community.

"That's what bothers me," Hill said. "We're doing the right thing. We're staying out of trouble, being positive role models in the community. Just like when we're out in public, fans want autographs and pictures. What do we get out the deal?"

Even always-upbeat coach Frank Vogel has noticed the lack of attendance.

"I'm hopeful that all you Pacers fans sitting at home watching on TV start coming out and seeing us because this is a special team that we're putting together here," he said after only 12,578 showed up for Tuesday's victory over Atlanta. "We're playing at a special level, and I look forward to seeing those crowds start getting up."

It's no secret that times are tough around the economy. The Pacers understand that, too. They have offered a variety of ticket promotions this season. Some have featured such heavy discounts that the tickets have been close to free.

Overall, the Pacers' average ticket price is 60 percent less than the league norm, according to data compiled by the Pacers.

"I would love to go to more games, but would prefer not to sit in the balcony," Eric O'Hair of Crawfordsville, Ind., wrote in an email. "The club level seems too overpriced and the Pacers should realize this by now. We live in a 'blue-collar state' and they are charging 'white-collar prices.' The business formula is simple and they are not following it. If (they) can't sell the tickets, drop the prices."

Renny Harrison, owner of FanFare tickets in Carmel, said he usually has dirt cheap tickets for sale when the Pacers aren't playing one of the league's heavyweight teams.

There are upper-level tickets starting at $5 for the Feb. 13 game against Charlotte. Lower level tickets are available for as low as $12.

"Unfortunately when it's a week night game against a team that nobody cares about, people tend not to go," Harrison said. "We would love to sell more tickets just like the Pacers would love to have more people show up. It's unfortunate."

The Colts season is over. IU, Butler and Purdue only play a couple of times a week

It's time to get on the bus.

The Pacers have done their job.

Now it's up to the fans to get on, too.

Trader Joe
02-07-2013, 03:33 PM
LOL you can get club tickets for like 40 bucks some nights. I'm sorry but that is not a white collar price for a great seat with in seat food service at a sporting event these days. Dude from Crawfordsville is out to lunch.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 03:39 PM
This is a very easy team to get behind. This team is the epitome of an Indiana basketball team. These guys are far from ostentatious like many pro athletes are. These guys play their hearts out every game. The fans want a player to get behind like Reggie Miller, Paul George is that guy according to Reggie, himself.

You can get into the whole supply and demand of an NFL season to an NBA season (8 home games to 41), but the Colts are one of the few teams who actually sells out every game and even exceed the capacity. You would think at least a quarter of those people would attend Pacers games more frequently. Especially since prices to Pacers games are very reasonable.

I do make a trip to Indy for 3 games a season, so yes, I do contribute as best as I can in supporting this team in person, as well as cheer them on for road games.

Hopefully frequent sellouts are near because this is ridiculous, Indy. The Pacers are legitimate title contenders.

The Pacers used to draw so well when they were title contenders in the late 90's and early 2000's. Also, during the recent playoffs, it was standing room only. Where are they now?

BillS
02-07-2013, 03:52 PM
Wells doesn't get it. It costs $200 for a family of 4 for tickets in crappy seats in the balcony, you HAVE to buy a full meal at the Fieldhouse for another $200, plus there's the Gift Shop where if you don't spend $100 on a jersey you're a Bad Dad. Add the $50 for parking anywhere within the mile square and no one other than the rich can afford to go to a game.

Compare that to Lucas Oil Stadium, where they give tickets away for free, all food and drink are included, every seat is 3 rows back on the 50 yard line, and they pay you to park. Oh, and jerseys are $1.50 unless they are on sale for fifty cents.

Never mind that Jim Irsay pays the CIB billions of dollars per year for the privilege of having a team in town, while the Simons have long been part of an Evil Empire turning the thriving 1970s-era downtown Indianapolis into a wasteland in order to send the money extracted from the poor and homeless of the city via the CIB to their Crystal Palace in California.

Don't know why anyone would support such a bunch of bums. Run 'em out of town and let the Fieldhouse be used nightly for all the things that would sell the place out and bring business to downtown if it just wasn't for those damn thugs.

BobbyMac
02-07-2013, 03:56 PM
Having good support from the new media here in town would help a great deal!

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 03:59 PM
The comments on this article are the Epitome of people who just have no idea about the team. Here, I will post some.


Wade Yensel- "The problem lies in the fees added onto the ticket price. Yes a ticket may be $5 or $10, but the ticket agencies add $5-$20 fees per ticket. On top of the fact if you want a drink or something to eat, you are spending another $20. Not to mention paying to park somewhere, thats an additional $5-$20. Its not just about the price of tickets, but the whole experience that turns a lot of folks away. eliminate some of these other fees that make one pacers game my monthly "fun" budget and I might consider going to a game. As others will mention, its not like the people of Indianapolis are breaking the bank on their paycheck"


Liz Warsaw- "Unfortunately Indy has always been a city that only has enough bandwagon fans for 1 team at a time...Colts are king for now..."

Michael Hart- "I want to go to a game. I was actually on the phone with my dad last night talking about how I want to go to a game when I'm home from college on spring break. I don't think ticket prices are that unreasonable. If you go to any other game in the country, you're going to wind up spending a stupid amount of money on food and parking. And you can avoid the fees by buying tickets directly from the box office."

Benjamin Fugate- "Liz Warsaw is correct, Indy can support only one pro team"

Conor Lee-"I love the Pacers and the NBA game. But many old-school fans are turned off by the NBA in general. I have a feeling unless the Pacers land a marquee player, or make a seriously deep playoff run (Finals?), the fans will never return to those empty seats. Indiana fans like basketball, just not the NBA's version of basketball."

Greg Candler-"With me it's not the Pacer's fault; it's th NBA in general. I used to go to a couple of dozen games a season (with the playoffs included) but as time passed, the personalities of the players became "thuggish", tough guy, and elitist in nature. Shoot, Reggie was that way, but the rest of the team from that era felt family-accessible to the community. I used to take the the family to the BEST Locker Room rstaurant after the gaes and the kids woud meet an talk to Rik Smits, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, Mark Jackson, Isiah Thomas and Larry Bird to name the poular ones. Nice guys; not tough guys. Call me an old geezer, but I just do not care for the product. And say what you will, I know a ton of people who agree with me."

Scott Pletcher- "I agree Greg... I stopped following the NBA about 10 years ago. The 'hip-hop' nature of the league, as it is now, is not entertaining to me. I know that NBA players are great athletes and can do incredible things on the court but I just don't see a lot of 'basketball' being played. It's all "look at me", one-on-one, isolation skills that get old really fast. I'll take college hoops any day of the week over the NBA. (Although College is starting to show signs of following in the NBAs footsteps) I still love the Pacers and hope they do well... just not going to go see any NBA games anytime soon."

Josh Boeke- "I've been to a couple Pacers games this season, but honestly it's more out of a sense of fan obligation than actual excitement to attend the game and I'm a guy who never misses a game on TV. The simple fact of the HD era in sports is that 9 out of 10 times the home experience is just as good if not better than the stadium experience (sure there's the occasional game that you really wish you were in the arena, but those are few and far between). Maybe others will disagree with me on that but I've been to plenty of Pacers games in my life and nearly every time I find myself sitting in an uncomfortable arena chair sipping a $7 beer and trying to make my $6 hot dog last as long as possible while watching the majority of the game on the in arena monitors because the view is better anyway. Regular season NBA games are not generally super exciting to watch in person, they just aren't.

When are we going to move past the "ticket sales equals loyalty" paradigm of sports fandom? I like George Hill but did he seriously ask what they get out of the deal for signing a few autographs and not getting into trouble off the court? Is his salary any lower because there are 4,000 empty seats in the stadium? I don't really understand where he's coming from. If the tickets are $5 how much money is really being lost (4,000 x 5 x 82 = 1.6 million, or roughly the amount of money that Miles Plumlee will be paid this season)?

They're 20-3 at home and 11-16 on the road, so obviously there's enough fans to give them an advantage. I get that the Pacers are putting out a good product and need support, but as someone who never misses a game on TV it's kind of insulting to suggest we're bad fans just because we don't attend games. Even if people could afford it (and let's be real Mr. Wells, ticket prices are only 1 of the many costs to attend a live sporting event), unless you really love live sports it's just not that appealing when you could enjoy the game in HD from home and save considerable time and money doing so.

Shaming fans for not attending a sporting event is kind of absurd to me. It's entertainment, if they want to go and they can afford it they will, if they don't, that's up to them. I would never call someone a bad music fan just because they bought the albums but didn't enjoy the live concert experience.

That's my 2 cents."

Kevin Sobiski- "You would think if the Pacers had another good playoff run, the fans would start turning out. But another issue might be there is no face to the franchise. People loved Reggie Miller and came out just for him. Look at the Colts. They lost 10,000 fans when Manning left. The closest thing the Pacers have now is Granger, and he is hurt. Some people mention the ticket prices, but the Pacers are one of the biggest bargains in the NBA. So, continue to win to create national buzz. That will get them on CBS so more people will be aware of them. Also, Paul George is an All-Star. Play that up for all it's worth."


So, there are some opinions of "average" Indianapolis sports fans.


Reactions?

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:01 PM
Wells doesn't get it. It costs $200 for a family of 4 for tickets in crappy seats in the balcony, you HAVE to buy a full meal at the Fieldhouse for another $200, plus there's the Gift Shop where if you don't spend $100 on a jersey you're a Bad Dad. Add the $50 for parking anywhere within the mile square and no one other than the rich can afford to go to a game.

Compare that to Lucas Oil Stadium, where they give tickets away for free, all food and drink are included, every seat is 3 rows back on the 50 yard line, and they pay you to park. Oh, and jerseys are $1.50 unless they are on sale for fifty cents.

Never mind that Jim Irsay pays the CIB billions of dollars per year for the privilege of having a team in town, while the Simons have long been part of an Evil Empire turning the thriving 1970s-era downtown Indianapolis into a wasteland in order to send the money extracted from the poor and homeless of the city via the CIB to their Crystal Palace in California.

Don't know why anyone would support such a bunch of bums. Run 'em out of town and let the Fieldhouse be used nightly for all the things that would sell the place out and bring business to downtown if it just wasn't for those damn thugs.

I wish I could thank this post so many times.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:01 PM
5,000+ people are insane for not taking advantage of the Tuesday twofers.

That's a great deal and who cares if it's Tuesday, you're getting two tickets for the price of one to see one of the NBA's best and possibly a team that will win a title in the near future.

:shakehead

SMosley21
02-07-2013, 04:02 PM
Waiting for the first person to start dogging George Hill for speaking the truth...

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:03 PM
Wells doesn't get it. It costs $200 for a family of 4 for tickets in crappy seats in the balcony, you HAVE to buy a full meal at the Fieldhouse for another $200, plus there's the Gift Shop where if you don't spend $100 on a jersey you're a Bad Dad. Add the $50 for parking anywhere within the mile square and no one other than the rich can afford to go to a game.

Compare that to Lucas Oil Stadium, where they give tickets away for free, all food and drink are included, every seat is 3 rows back on the 50 yard line, and they pay you to park. Oh, and jerseys are $1.50 unless they are on sale for fifty cents.

Never mind that Jim Irsay pays the CIB billions of dollars per year for the privilege of having a team in town, while the Simons have long been part of an Evil Empire turning the thriving 1970s-era downtown Indianapolis into a wasteland in order to send the money extracted from the poor and homeless of the city via the CIB to their Crystal Palace in California.

Don't know why anyone would support such a bunch of bums. Run 'em out of town and let the Fieldhouse be used nightly for all the things that would sell the place out and bring business to downtown if it just wasn't for those damn thugs.

It seems a lot of people in your age group are the ones that are against NBA basketball in general. Why do you think that is?

MillerTime
02-07-2013, 04:04 PM
Wells doesn't get it. It costs $200 for a family of 4 for tickets in crappy seats in the balcony, you HAVE to buy a full meal at the Fieldhouse for another $200, plus there's the Gift Shop where if you don't spend $100 on a jersey you're a Bad Dad. Add the $50 for parking anywhere within the mile square and no one other than the rich can afford to go to a game.

Compare that to Lucas Oil Stadium, where they give tickets away for free, all food and drink are included, every seat is 3 rows back on the 50 yard line, and they pay you to park. Oh, and jerseys are $1.50 unless they are on sale for fifty cents.

Never mind that Jim Irsay pays the CIB billions of dollars per year for the privilege of having a team in town, while the Simons have long been part of an Evil Empire turning the thriving 1970s-era downtown Indianapolis into a wasteland in order to send the money extracted from the poor and homeless of the city via the CIB to their Crystal Palace in California.

Don't know why anyone would support such a bunch of bums. Run 'em out of town and let the Fieldhouse be used nightly for all the things that would sell the place out and bring business to downtown if it just wasn't for those damn thugs.

you gotta be kidding me....theres no way parking in Indy is $50

Lord Helmet
02-07-2013, 04:05 PM
Well the TV ratings are higher aren't they? The reason the Colts can sell out is there are fewer games and to the casual fan the NBA regular season isn't as exciting as the NFL season.

When the Pacers play the bigger teams it brings that Playoff atmosphere and hype and the local fans come out to usually what I see as pro-Pacers crowds, which wasn't the case 3 years ago.

I don't blame people for saving money when we play the likes of the Bobcats at home. We keep winning though and I expect even those games to pick up, crowd-wise.

The Fieldhouse was electric against the Heat, the loudest I had heard it in a long time and it had to be 95% Pacers fans. I'm not that worried. The fans around here are back on the wagon, I think.

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 04:05 PM
This is a very easy team to get behind. This team is the epitome of an Indiana basketball team. These guys are far from ostentatious like many pro athletes are. These guys play their hearts out every game. The fans want a player to get behind like Reggie Miller, Paul George is that guy according to Reggie, himself.

You can get into the whole supply and demand of an NFL season to an NBA season (8 home games to 41), but the Colts are one of the few teams who actually sells out every game and even exceed the capacity. You would think at least a quarter of those people would attend Pacers games more frequently. Especially since prices to Pacers games are very reasonable.

I do make a trip to Indy for 3 games a season, so yes, I do contribute as best as I can in supporting this team in person, as well as cheer them on for road games.

Hopefully frequent sellouts are near because this is ridiculous, Indy. The Pacers are legitimate title contenders.

The Pacers used to draw so well when they were title contenders in the late 90's and early 2000's. Also, during the recent playoffs, it was standing room only. Where are they now?

I believe it is a problem caused by the blow-up several years ago when everyone called Pacers player thugs. A considerable number of fans in Indy wrote the Pacers off for good. I have done that myself with the Colts. These fans are never coming back no matter what happens or how much the Pacers win. I know I will get blasted for this but some of it is absolutely racial. I have heard fans in Indy say, "Why would I want to go watch a team of all black guys play basketball." They also say, "The NBA is all black guys with disgusting tattoos who look like human bill boards with their baggy pants that look like the shorts blacks where that come down to their ankles and have to be pinned up." This is not me because I could care less if they black, green or blue if they play well. But I have heard a lot of these kinds of statements in Indy. Football is different and the Irsay monster made sure he got a white QB for what I believe is this very reason. I am sure the mods will cut this post because they don't like to think about these things or have discussions about them. I don't mean it as negative about the Pacers but about Indy fans in general. I am sure everyone will disagree but college basketball is not as popular as it used to be and this is part of the problem there too........ Just my opinion guys. I hope I am wrong but I am sure that I am not. :cool: ... Find another Larry Bird (I know he never played for the Pacers) or a Dutchman center. Add five white guys to this team and let the record drop ten games per year and you will have more fan support than you do now.....

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:06 PM
you gotta be kidding me....theres no way parking in Indy is $50

His whole post is extremely sarcastic. The sad part some people have it in their minds that is how it is.

BillS
02-07-2013, 04:07 PM
you gotta be kidding me....theres no way parking in Indy is $50

You're right, I checked. Except for times when the Colts are playing, you can't get a parking place for less than $75. Those same places are subsidized by the Colts so that there are guys standing on the corners with wads of cash to give you to entice you to park there for Colts games.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:07 PM
I believe it is a problem caused by the blow-up several years ago when everyone called Pacers player thugs. A considerable number of fans in Indy wrote the Pacers off for good. I have done that myself with the Colts. These fans are never coming back no matter what happens or how much the Pacers win. I know I will get blasted for this but some of it is absolutely racial. I have heard fans in Indy say, "Why would I want to go watch a team of all black guys play basketball." They also say, "The NBA is all black guys with disgusting tattoos who look like human bill boards with their baggy pants that look like the shorts blacks where that come down to their ankles and have to be pinned up." This is not me because I could care less if they black, green or blue if they play well. But I have heard a lot of these kinds of statements in Indy. Football is different and the Irsay monster made sure he got a white QB for what I believe is this very reason. I am sure the mods will cut this post because they don't like to think about these things or have discussions about them. I don't mean it as negative about the Pacers but about Indy fans in general. I am sure everyone will disagree but college basketball is not as popular as it used to be and this is part of the problem there too........ Just my opinion guys. I hope I am wrong but I am sure that I am not. :cool: ... Find another Larry Bird (I know he never played for the Pacers) or a Dutchman center. Add five white guys to this team and let the record drop ten games per year and you will have more fan support than you do now.....

I believe this is very much a sad and valid point, regardless of whether people will admit to it or not, except for the part about a team of primarily white players who sucked, drawing better than our team now. (Thanks Solozzo)

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:08 PM
I don't expect us to sellout EVERY game, but at least 90% capacity on average is more than acceptable.

http://i46.tinypic.com/nwhfky.png

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:12 PM
I wish they gave the real attendance every night. Not the made up one.

Derek2k3
02-07-2013, 04:12 PM
you gotta be kidding me....theres no way parking in Indy is $50

I believe Bill is referencing an article/blog post or something from a bit back in which the writer basically stated a family of four couldn't get to a game for less than $500, then broke it down similar to what Bill did.

Sarcasm, I believe.

Sparhawk
02-07-2013, 04:12 PM
Amen.

Saddens me that people in Indiana only support High School and College basketball. Basketball is in our blood. The Pacers should be too. I don't get it. I'd have season tickets if I still lived in Indiana. Argh! So frustrating more people don't support the Pacers. They are a good and classy franchise. There aren't many like that.

BillS
02-07-2013, 04:14 PM
It seems a lot of people in your age group are the ones that are against NBA basketball in general. Why do you think that is?

To be perfectly honest, if I hadn't grown up a Pacers fan I think I'd be against the NBA basketball brand as well. I don't care for the loud music and off-the-court shownanigans (sic), I don't like the complete redefinition of traveling to mean anything over 2 steps (with exceptions for some players), I don't like the star power calls and hype. I started to really lose respect for it when Jordan became untouchable, and when Shaq was allowed to lower his shoulder and run over defenders because "that was his game".

I just love my home-town team. Which makes me a LOT different than the typical Indiana casual fan in my age group, who don't have that impetus to overcome their disdain for the NBA game - and I can't really blame them for that. It's the crying about how expensive it is and believing a few bucks entitles you to a great seat (I actually DO agree about the food prices, but come on, arena food has ALWAYS been ridiculous and when I was growing up you grabbed something BEFORE the game).

There are people who have very good reasons; there are other people who repeat those reasons by rote and make them into excuses.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:14 PM
I wish they gave the real attendance every night. Not the made up one.

It's calculated by the number of tickets purchased.

Sandman21
02-07-2013, 04:14 PM
I believe Bill is referencing an article/blog post or something from a bit back in which the writer basically stated a family of four couldn't get to a game for less than $500, then broke it down similar to what Bill did.

Sarcasm, I believe.
Tully, who said that it would cost a family of 4 $150 to see a game from the balcony, not counting parking and food.

Derek2k3
02-07-2013, 04:16 PM
I'm not disagreeing in any way that the attendance is bad.

I would point out that, in terms of "percentage of stadium filled" the Pacers sit at 22nd. Still awful, yes. However, that takes into consideration what the actual target is (Not 20,000, rather, 100% of the seats filled.)

BillS
02-07-2013, 04:16 PM
Sarcasm, I believe.

Me? <i>Sarcasm?</i>

Perish the thought.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:16 PM
It's calculated by the number of tickets purchased.

It's calculated by the number of tickets distributed, not sold.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:18 PM
I dont understand why people take the percentage into consideration. If every city had a stadium that was proportionate to the population size. Yes, that would make sense. But you really can't rank attendance based on percentage filled in my opinion. Maybe someone can convince me otherwise.

Sandman21
02-07-2013, 04:21 PM
I'm not disagreeing in any way that the attendance is bad.

I would point out that, in terms of "percentage of stadium filled" the Pacers sit at 22nd. Still awful, yes. However, that takes into consideration what the actual target is (Not 20,000, rather, 100% of the seats filled.)
Honestly, I think the % is the number you should go by. Look at Detroit, by the average crowd, we only draw 500 more fans or so, but we fill a hell of a lot more of our stadium, and it also shows just how empty Detroit really is.

ECKrueger
02-07-2013, 04:21 PM
My thought is that the attendance will increase quickly once it does. I like to go to games, but not unless a couple of buddies can go. If it is just me, or just the two of us, the live experience does not beat the TV experience to me.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:21 PM
It's calculated by the number of tickets distributed, not sold.

That's what I meant...

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:23 PM
Well, you have to buy the tickets. They aren't donating them, while it seems like they are with how cheap they are.

So, what you said is pretty much what I meant.

Yes, they are.They are given away in one way or another. Do you really think if attendance is announced at 12,000, all 12,000 of those tickets were sold?

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:25 PM
Yes, they are.They are given away in one way or another. Do you really think if attendance is announced at 12,000, all 12,000 of those tickets were sold?

Am I saying that?

I said it's calculated based on the tickets "distributed". Obviously not everyone who buys a ticket can go.

I'm saying pretty much exactly what you're saying.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:26 PM
Am I saying that?

I said it's calculated based on the tickets "distributed". Obviously not everyone who buys a ticket can go.

I'm saying pretty much exactly what you're saying.


Yea, I think we are pretty much saying the same thing. ;)

BillS
02-07-2013, 04:28 PM
I believe it is a problem caused by the blow-up several years ago when everyone called Pacers player thugs. A considerable number of fans in Indy wrote the Pacers off for good. I have done that myself with the Colts. These fans are never coming back no matter what happens or how much the Pacers win. I know I will get blasted for this but some of it is absolutely racial. I have heard fans in Indy say, "Why would I want to go watch a team of all black guys play basketball." They also say, "The NBA is all black guys with disgusting tattoos who look like human bill boards with their baggy pants that look like the shorts blacks where that come down to their ankles and have to be pinned up." This is not me because I could care less if they black, green or blue if they play well. But I have heard a lot of these kinds of statements in Indy. Football is different and the Irsay monster made sure he got a white QB for what I believe is this very reason. I am sure the mods will cut this post because they don't like to think about these things or have discussions about them. I don't mean it as negative about the Pacers but about Indy fans in general. I am sure everyone will disagree but college basketball is not as popular as it used to be and this is part of the problem there too........ Just my opinion guys. I hope I am wrong but I am sure that I am not. :cool: ... Find another Larry Bird (I know he never played for the Pacers) or a Dutchman center. Add five white guys to this team and let the record drop ten games per year and you will have more fan support than you do now.....

I don't disagree that there are some people for whom this is an issue, but I seriously doubt it is the difference between our current attendance and selling out. If we had LBJ we'd be selling out even though he isn't white - the hype would overcome it.

There IS something to be said about the cultural aspect of the NBA - I think most people with money in central Indiana are not likely to be drawn to games with hip-hop themes. Now, that being said, the Fever do a LOT more hip-hop than the Pacers and yet they still sell to a very white audience. The ticket prices may have something to do with that, along with the idea that they are more like a college team in terms of atmosphere and loyalty. They don't sell NBA numbers but compared to the rest of the WNBA (and compared to the cost of ownership of a WNBA team) they do very well.

Since86
02-07-2013, 04:28 PM
the live experience does not beat the TV experience to me.

Bingo.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:32 PM
My thought is that the attendance will increase quickly once it does. I like to go to games, but not unless a couple of buddies can go. If it is just me, or just the two of us, the live experience does not beat the TV experience to me.

I agree and I think anyone, not even a sports fan would agree, going to games is better than just watching on TV.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:34 PM
I agree and I think anyone, not even a sports fan would agree, going to games is better than just watching on TV.

I think you are disagreeing with him actually. He is saying he prefers sitting on his couch, then being in attendance at the actual game.

Since86
02-07-2013, 04:35 PM
I agree and I think anyone, not even a sports fan would agree, going to games is better than just watching on TV.

I took it as the exact opposite. Staying at home and watching the game from your comfy couch with your 30cent can of pop(or $1.50 bottle from the gas station)/$1 beer is better than sitting in tiny, hard plastic seats, with your $5 pop/$8 beer.

I go to Pacer games, to be honest, just to give them my money. I like watching games from home 100x better.

Heisenberg
02-07-2013, 04:37 PM
I've never understood people complaining about concession prices. You can't go a few hours without eating? Eat before the friggin game.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:39 PM
I took it as the exact opposite. Staying at home and watching the game from your comfy couch with your 30cent can of pop(or $1.50 bottle from the gas station)/$1 beer is better than sitting in tiny, hard plastic seats, with your $5 pop/$8 beer.

I go to Pacer games, to be honest, just to give them my money. I like watching games from home 100x better.

Maybe it's just me, since I can't often see the Pacers in person, that I'd try and go to every game.

gummy
02-07-2013, 04:39 PM
I don't expect us to sellout EVERY game, but at least 90% capacity on average is more than acceptable.

http://i46.tinypic.com/nwhfky.png

I don't expect us to sell out either. But below the likes of the Wizards and the Bobcats?

THE BOBCATS!?!?

That's just embarrassingly pathetic no matter how you slice it. For a team of this quality on and off the court I'd hope to see at least 16K average.

BillS
02-07-2013, 04:39 PM
I took it as the exact opposite. Staying at home and watching the game from your comfy couch with your 30cent can of pop(or $1.50 bottle from the gas station)/$1 beer is better than sitting in tiny, hard plastic seats, with your $5 pop/$8 beer.

I go to Pacer games, to be honest, just to give them my money. I like watching games from home 100x better.

Until they let me control the cameras and the replays, I would disagree with this. I hate being unable to watch specific things on the floor, not knowing what went on if the commentators don't bother talking about it (at a game I can ask people around me to find out who saw it), and the commercials. If I have to see Ken Beckley one more time I'll need to replace my TV :)

And standing up and screaming my head off at home gets me in trouble. At the Fieldhouse I'm one of at least 3 or 4 people who does it :zip:

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:41 PM
I think you are disagreeing with him actually. He is saying he prefers sitting on his couch, then being in attendance at the actual game.

I do agree with him that it's better to go with other people or sit with people.

I was just making a statement more than anything in my post.

billbradley
02-07-2013, 04:44 PM
I love going to the games. I can't miss one. I miss BLF so much in the off season.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:45 PM
Until they let me control the cameras and the replays, I would disagree with this. I hate being unable to watch specific things on the floor, not knowing what went on if the commentators don't bother talking about it (at a game I can ask people around me to find out who saw it), and the commercials. If I have to see Ken Beckley one more time I'll need to replace my TV :)

And standing up and screaming my head off at home gets me in trouble. At the Fieldhouse I'm one of at least 3 or 4 people who does it :zip:

Speaking of commercials, when are they going to take down that "bring flavor home for the holidays" ad for Marsh?

Since86
02-07-2013, 04:46 PM
I've never understood people complaining about concession prices. You can't go a few hours without eating? Eat before the friggin game.

For people, like me, who travel 1hr 20mins, it's not all that possible. It's only possible if I want to eat fast food while driving, and that doesn't do much to negate the cost seeing as how a combo from most places is $6-$7 so you're saving one WHOLE DOLLAR!

Mocking people isn't going to solve the problem either. Whether or not you think they're right, their perception is their reality.

Since86
02-07-2013, 04:49 PM
Until they let me control the cameras and the replays, I would disagree with this. I hate being unable to watch specific things on the floor, not knowing what went on if the commentators don't bother talking about it (at a game I can ask people around me to find out who saw it), and the commercials. If I have to see Ken Beckley one more time I'll need to replace my TV :)

I love being able to record the game, waiting 30-40mins, and then fastforwarding through all the dead time. That 15min stall during the Hawks game was horrible, until I remembered I was 10mins behind.




And standing up and screaming my head off at home gets me in trouble. At the Fieldhouse I'm one of at least 3 or 4 people who does it :zip:

I'm pretty much the exact opposite. I hardly yell/scream when I'm in the arena. I barely standup to clap. But I'm always making the cat run and hide, and making my GF jump from getting surprised, at home with my yelling.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:51 PM
I want to know why it seems to be only the people of Indiana?

Fans of other teams get to the games and fill up seats. Many are no where near as good as we are.

gummy
02-07-2013, 04:52 PM
Until they let me control the cameras and the replays, I would disagree with this. I hate being unable to watch specific things on the floor, not knowing what went on if the commentators don't bother talking about it (at a game I can ask people around me to find out who saw it), and the commercials. If I have to see Ken Beckley one more time I'll need to replace my TV :)

And standing up and screaming my head off at home gets me in trouble. At the Fieldhouse I'm one of at least 3 or 4 people who does it :zip:

That's it exactly for me. There are some games where novel angles are used and some of them are really interesting. TNT webcasts let you have a little bit of control over cameras, which is nice, and League Pass Broadband lets you back up 30 sec at a time and pull the slider along to get to other parts of the game, which is also nice. But it's all pretty much in its infancy compared to the level of control I'd need to have in order for it to compete with the live game experience.

And I think you really don't get the same sense of how fast/tall/skilled these guys are via. TV sometimes feels more like a video game. When you're sitting in the chair in the arena and have that "Wow, this human being did that crazy awesome thing right in front of me," experience there is no substitute for it.

billbradley
02-07-2013, 04:54 PM
For people, like me, who travel 1hr 20mins, it's not all that possible. It's only possible if I want to eat fast food while driving, and that doesn't do much to negate the cost seeing as how a combo from most places is $6-$7 so you're saving one WHOLE DOLLAR!

Mocking people isn't going to solve the problem either. Whether or not you think they're right, their perception is their reality.

It's not really mocking, some people just aren't going to prefer to go to games live and that's fine.

But going to a Pacer can be a very cheap outing. $2 meter parking and $2 tickets get you a good view of the court and a bigger screen than anyone has at home.

Another underrated perk of going to the game is how much easier it is to follow the stats of the players in the game.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 04:54 PM
I want to know why it seems to be only the people of Indiana?

Fans of other teams get to the games and fill up seats. Many are no where near as good as we are.

In reality they don't. There is no way in hell the Bobcats average more seats filled then the Pacers do. In reality we are probably about 20th in true attendance.

gummy
02-07-2013, 04:56 PM
I love going to the games. I can't miss one. I miss BLF so much in the off season.

When I move back home in a few months (well, I'm from Fort Wayne but I am not going back there, haha), I plan to get Fever season tickets and maybe half season tickets for the Pacers (would love to be able to get full season tickets but I think they will be beyond my reach for the first year or two at least). I do love being in BLF and I am going to be in it a lot in the coming years! :)

cinotimz
02-07-2013, 04:57 PM
If it is just me, or just the two of us, the live experience does not beat the TV experience to me.

This is something I just will never be able to understand. I could be watching the game on a 90" home theater and to me theres just no comparison to being there...just none...

Trophy
02-07-2013, 04:58 PM
In reality they don't. There is no way in hell the Bobcats average more seats filled then the Pacers do. In reality we are probably about 20th in true attendance.

I know the Bobcats don't actually get 15,000 actual people to their games.

I went to the game in January and it was without a doubt half full. Yet, they announced like 13,000 people were there.

What I'm saying is, however you want to put it, the Pacers attendance is 26th in the league. Other teams are selling more tickets than we are.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 05:00 PM
I know the Bobcats don't actually get 15,000 actual people to their games.

I went to the game in January and it was without a doubt half full. Yet, they announced like 13,000 people were there.

See you answered your own question. Some teams are much more realistic about attendance than others, like the Pacers. Others really just come up with extremely unrealistic numbers. I wish teams were required to have the exact same process of recording attendance.

cdash
02-07-2013, 05:01 PM
If anyone wants to give me a job back in Indy, I will gladly come purchase season tickets.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 05:03 PM
See you answered your own question. Some teams are much more realistic about attendance than others, like the Pacers. Others really just come up with extremely unrealistic numbers. I wish teams were required to have the exact same process of recording attendance.

I'm pretty sure every team in all sports/leagues announces the attendance as the amount of tickets bought/distributed.

Remember Frank Vogel's first head coaching game against the Raptors during a snowstorm? There were only 100s of people actually there, but they announced it in the 10,000s or something.

Sollozzo
02-07-2013, 05:03 PM
Add five white guys to this team and let the record drop ten games per year and you will have more fan support than you do now.....


Ah, the glory days of 07-08 where we had Dunleavy, Murphy, Travis Diener, Jeff Foster, and a crappy team. We lost a lot of games that year, but boy did we have great attendance because of starting two highly paid white guys in Murphy and Dunleavy. Oh wait, actually our attendance was complete crap that season. In fact, it was a putrid 12,221 per game, which was our lowest attendance of the past 13 years. Looks like trading Stephen Jackson and Al Harrington for two white guys did nothing to help attendance. In fact, it DROPPED after that. That's yet another claim of yours that has no basis in fact whatsoever.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2008

Also, the city of Indianapolis is 25% African American. There are literally hundreds of thousands of African Americans in this community. Believe it or not, Indy isn't 100% made up of racist hayseed hicks.

Mad-Mad-Mario
02-07-2013, 05:06 PM
As the team has improved so has attendance. For example since the new year we have averaged 15,634. I threw out the Detroit game though in that average. IU and Purdue were playing, I am sorry but thats not fair.

And only the Wizards and Hawks had a lower number than our average. Its trending up for sure.

PacersHomer
02-07-2013, 05:07 PM
I love Pacers games and I wish I could make it to more of them. I wish everyone else in the city felt the same way so this topic would go away.

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 05:10 PM
Ah, the glory days of 07-08 where we had Dunleavy, Murphy, Travis Diener, Jeff Foster, and a crappy team. We lost a lot of games that year, but boy did we have great attendance because of starting two highly paid white guys in Murphy and Dunleavy. Oh wait, actually our attendance was complete crap that season. In fact, it was a putrid 12,221 per game, which was our lowest attendance of the past 13 years. Looks like trading Stephen Jackson and Al Harrington for two white guys did nothing to help attendance. In fact, it DROPPED after that. That's yet another claim of yours that has no basic in fact whatsoever.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2008

Also, the city of Indianapolis is 25% African American. There are literally hundreds of thousands of African Americans in this community. Believe it or not, Indy isn't 100% made up of racist hayseed hicks.

I have not attended a game in a long time because of my travels but the last time I did attend, there were very few African Americans attending the game. Have they ever attended the games? I really don't think they have ever been much of a factor for attendence......:cool: ... No, Indy is not made up of 100% racist hayseed hicks but it is made up of racists to a higher degree than some other cities. Indy is only about 40 miles from that last bastion of the KKK, Martinsville, IN......:cool: ...

Mad-Mad-Mario
02-07-2013, 05:10 PM
This is something I just will never be able to understand. I could be watching the game on a 90" home theater and to me theres just no comparison to being there...just none...

I spent the Heat game with a heat moron screaming YEAH every single time anything went there way, even when the Pacers had already won it. To my left was a fat guy who spent the game apparently doing calf stretches and who smelled. I think watching it on tv would have been preferable if not for the chance to gloat to 2 of my friends who are heat Bandwagoners.

immortality
02-07-2013, 05:14 PM
LOL you can get club tickets for like 40 bucks some nights. I'm sorry but that is not a white collar price for a great seat with in seat food service at a sporting event these days. Dude from Crawfordsville is out to lunch.

Not sure what you are saying, is the price cheap or expensive?

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 05:16 PM
Not sure what you are saying, is the price cheap or expensive?

Spending 40 dollars on a great ticket is not expensive in my opinion. But to others, maybe that is out of their price range. Just depends on the person.

Sollozzo
02-07-2013, 05:16 PM
He didn't say just because they were white meant there would be great attendance regardless. A lot of the reasons people give for not supporting the team are racially charged, regardless of whether they realize that are not.

No his point was clear: Lose 10 more games but add some white guys and watch the attendance soar. I easily debunked the silly claim with the 07-08 season where we had Murph and Dun for a full year, yet actually lost attendance. In fact, it was the worst season of any of the past 13 years.

We had excellent attendance in the 1990's with a primarily African American team. Reggie, Jalen, Dale, Antonio, McKey, Jackson....all African Americans. Smits and Mullin were the only prominent white players.

We all know the real reason for the bad attendance. The Pacers were a pathetically run franchise for several years. The brawl, off-court incidents, and unlikable players took a massive toll. We got rid of the bad seeds, but followed those seasons up with more losing by teams with boring players and awful Jim O'Brien coaching. All of that takes a toll on a fan base and it's not something that is fixed by the snap of a finger. But it's improving.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 05:17 PM
I have not attended a game in a long time because of my travels but the last time I did attend, there were very few African Americans attending the game. Have they ever attended the games? I really don't think they have ever been much of a factor for attendence......:cool: ... No, Indy is not made up of 100% racist hayseed hicks but it is made up of racists to a higher degree than some other cities. Indy is only about 40 miles from that last bastion of the KKK, Martinsville, IN......:cool: ...

I disagree with this. I think there is a good mix in terms of ethnicities at the games.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 05:18 PM
No his point was clear: Lose 10 games but add some white guys and watch the attendance soar. I easily debunked the silly claim with the 07-08 season where we had Murph and Dun for a full year, yet actually lost attendance. In fact, it was the worst season of any of the past 13 years.

We had excellent attendance in the 1990's with a primarily African American team. Reggie, Jalen, Dale, Antonio, McKey, Jackson....all African Americans. Smits and Mullin were the only prominent white players.

We all know the real reason for the bad attendance. The Pacers were a pathetically run franchise for several years. The brawl, off-court incidents, and unlikable players took a massive toll. We got rid of the bad seeds, but followed those seasons up with more losing by teams with boring players and awful Jim O'Brien coaching. All of that takes a toll on a fan base and it's not something that is fixed by the snap of a finger. But it's improving.

Ok, well I disagree with him if that is what he intended.

cdash
02-07-2013, 05:23 PM
Ok, well I disagree with him if that is what he intended.

It's OlBlu--of course that is what he intended.

Sollozzo
02-07-2013, 05:24 PM
I have not attended a game in a long time because of my travels but the last time I did attend, there were very few African Americans attending the game. Have they ever attended the games? I really don't think they have ever been much of a factor for attendence......:cool: ... No, Indy is not made up of 100% racist hayseed hicks but it is made up of racists to a higher degree than some other cities. Indy is only about 40 miles from that last bastion of the KKK, Martinsville, IN......:cool: ...

I was just there on Friday against the Heat and there were quite a few African Americans in the stands. Maybe you should bring that motorhome to Indy sometime and go to a game.

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 05:25 PM
To me staying at home is better, I have my remote control in hand, my food, my computer so I can talk s*** on PD :) I can also go flip channels and watch other games while Quinn is talking ;), ain't nobody got time to go to a game.

cdash
02-07-2013, 05:28 PM
To me staying at home is better, I have my remote control in hand, my food, my computer so I can talk s*** on PD :) I can also go flip channels and watch other games while Quinn is talking ;), ain't nobody got time to go to a game.

Honestly--this is a very real part of the issue. Bill Simmons has been talking about this for years now, and he's right to a certain extent. It certainly is a factor.

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 05:29 PM
Oh and they also need to have better looking Pacemates, every time I see the Miami, GS and Dallas cheerleaders I feel like I want to be there :)

TinManJoshua
02-07-2013, 05:30 PM
Well, they're not real contenders, so what's the point? Besides, college ball is a much better product.

billbradley
02-07-2013, 05:30 PM
We had 16,000 when the Rockets came to town. I've always liked Sun Yue...

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 05:30 PM
I was just there on Friday against the Heat and there were quite a few African Americans in the stands. Maybe you should bring that motorhome to Indy sometime and go to a game.

I am usually in Indiana in May through September...... Sometimes I am only passing through. I used to attend quite a few games. I am also alone and I don't find it much fun to do that kind of thing alone. Just me, I guess..... :cool: ...

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 05:32 PM
I am usually in Indiana in May through September...... Sometimes I am only passing through. I used to attend quite a few games. I am also alone and I don't find it much fun to do that kind of thing alone. Just me, I guess..... :cool: ...

I'm pretty sure you can find some friends in area 55, just don't tell them who you are though ;)

Since86
02-07-2013, 05:32 PM
It's not really mocking

I went through a couple years where it just wasn't financially feasible. This conversation isn't new, and when I would tell people about how expensive gas was/tickets/food/etc was only to be met with "yeah its not expensive, just do ______(like eat before)." It belittles the person and what they're saying about their personal situation.

I knew what I could and couldn't afford, I had to make decisions on what I wanted to spend my money on. When people are telling you that you're wrong, about your financial situation, it just doesn't do anything to move the solutions forward.

$12 tickets might not that be expensive to some of you guys, but the cost of gas alone is a deterrent for some people. That's one major drawback of Indiana. Everything is so spread out, it's not like you have a couple million people packed in the metro area like other places. It takes a much larger percentage of Indy and the surrounding area to fill those seats than it does in Chicago, or ATL, or NYC.

cdash
02-07-2013, 05:32 PM
This is a slight tangent but feeds off the idea of other threads--say the Pacers drafted Victor Oladipo or Cody Zeller. For argument's sake, let's say the on court record stays more or less the same. Does the connection to beloved IU players affect attendance noticeably?

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 05:32 PM
I was just there on Friday against the Heat and there were quite a few African Americans in the stands. Maybe you should bring that motorhome to Indy sometime and go to a game.

I am glad to hear that. I know some friends and I commented on that the last time I was there but that has been a while.....:cool: ...

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 05:33 PM
Well, they're not real contenders, so what's the point? Besides, college ball is a much better product.

Why do you think College Basketball is a better product? I enjoy college basketball, but the quality of the game does not even come close to matching the NBA.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 05:33 PM
This is a slight tangent but feeds off the idea of other threads--say the Pacers drafted Victor Oladipo or Cody Zeller. For argument's sake, let's say the on court record stays more or less the same. Does the connection to beloved IU players affect attendance noticeably?

Initially, but then fans would come up with more excuses.

Cousy47
02-07-2013, 05:34 PM
I think a lot of that thinking comes from when Bird said the League needed more white stars(whether tongue in cheek or not). Bird's Celtics had 3 white starters but they were also NBA champions. The trophy sells a lot more tickets that the skin color, IMO. Lots of people com to see the Pacers play Miami, Chicago and LA because of all the zone defense playing white guys they have. "green"

Pacergeek
02-07-2013, 05:34 PM
This is a slight tangent but feeds off the idea of other threads--say the Pacers drafted Victor Oladipo or Cody Zeller. For argument's sake, let's say the on court record stays more or less the same. Does the connection to beloved IU players affect attendance noticeably?

Without question, yes

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 05:34 PM
This is a slight tangent but feeds off the idea of other threads--say the Pacers drafted Victor Oladipo or Cody Zeller. For argument's sake, let's say the on court record stays more or less the same. Does the connection to beloved IU players affect attendance noticeably?

There are a lot of people like me who do not believe IU players are beloved and you would lost about as many fans as you gain in my opinion......:cool: ...

J7F
02-07-2013, 05:35 PM
We die-hards need to push people to go more!

I suggest you all share this article to your friends on Facebook and Twitter as I have!

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 05:35 PM
I'm pretty sure you can find some friends in area 55, just don't tell them who you are though ;)

My charming personality in person would win them over, I am sure.....:cool: ...

TinManJoshua
02-07-2013, 05:36 PM
Initially, but then fans would come up with more excuses.

I guess that green was too dark. I shoulda known better than to use "black green". It looks more like a "green black" to me anyway.

Heisenberg
02-07-2013, 05:37 PM
To me staying at home is better, I have my remote control in hand, my food, my computer so I can talk s*** on PD :) I can also go flip channels and watch other games while Quinn is talking ;), ain't nobody got time to go to a game.

Also the fact that you'd get beat up at BLF probably discourages you.

Seriously though, the ever improving home experience is a really big problem for pro sports. Even the NFL had a decrease in attendance last season.


This is a slight tangent but feeds off the idea of other threads--say the Pacers drafted Victor Oladipo or Cody Zeller. For argument's sake, let's say the on court record stays more or less the same. Does the connection to beloved IU players affect attendance noticeably?
Define noticeably. It'd certainly help, Zeller especially.

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 05:39 PM
No his point was clear: Lose 10 more games but add some white guys and watch the attendance soar. I easily debunked the silly claim with the 07-08 season where we had Murph and Dun for a full year, yet actually lost attendance. In fact, it was the worst season of any of the past 13 years.

We had excellent attendance in the 1990's with a primarily African American team. Reggie, Jalen, Dale, Antonio, McKey, Jackson....all African Americans. Smits and Mullin were the only prominent white players.

We all know the real reason for the bad attendance. The Pacers were a pathetically run franchise for several years. The brawl, off-court incidents, and unlikable players took a massive toll. We got rid of the bad seeds, but followed those seasons up with more losing by teams with boring players and awful Jim O'Brien coaching. All of that takes a toll on a fan base and it's not something that is fixed by the snap of a finger. But it's improving.

I do not believe it would soar but if you added someone like Love from Minnesota and a few more, it would play well in Indy. They are never title contenders anyway, the owner isn't interested in that, but they could make the playoffs and have a winning record and attendence would go up. I agree with most of the rest of what you say but those fans will never come back, just like I won't go back to IU or the Colts. Done is done......:cool: ...

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 05:40 PM
They need to have a good wifi connection and better phone signal, it sucks not to be able to do s*** on my phone.

Pacergeek
02-07-2013, 05:41 PM
Has anybody else experienced poor customer service? I attended a game last season, had a cheap nosebleed seat. Instead of sitting there, I sat a few rows up, still in the upper level. Empty section, but this overzealous usher insisted I leave and return to my actual seat. I understand I was in a marginally better seat I didn't pay for, but it kind of rubbed me the wrong way being asked to move seats

cdash
02-07-2013, 05:41 PM
This might be more reflective of my person feelings of the winter months, but do you guys think the weather plays a part in attendance? Not a major part I'm sure, but when it's bitterly cold and/or snowy, I am much less inclined to get in my car, drive downtown, find parking that may or may not be that close to the arena, and walk through the crappy cold to get to the game. Obviously that's an issue for any cold weather city and I'm not using it as an excuse or even think it's a major reason, but do we think it plays a part?

Heisenberg
02-07-2013, 05:41 PM
I went through a couple years where it just wasn't financially feasible. This conversation isn't new, and when I would tell people about how expensive gas was/tickets/food/etc was only to be met with "yeah its not expensive, just do ______(like eat before)." It belittles the person and what they're saying about their personal situation.

I knew what I could and couldn't afford, I had to make decisions on what I wanted to spend my money on. When people are telling you that you're wrong, about your financial situation, it just doesn't do anything to move the solutions forward.

$12 tickets might not that be expensive to some of you guys, but the cost of gas alone is a deterrent for some people. That's one major drawback of Indiana. Everything is so spread out, it's not like you have a couple million people packed in the metro area like other places. It takes a much larger percentage of Indy and the surrounding area to fill those seats than it does in Chicago, or ATL, or NYC.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who specifically state "yeah I'd go but the food's too expensive." That's just an awful excuse.

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 05:42 PM
Also the fact that you'd get beat up at BLF probably discourages you.

Seriously though, the ever improving home experience is a really big problem for pro sports. Even the NFL had a decrease in attendance last season.


Define noticeably. It'd certainly help, Zeller especially.

Attendance is another reason why I wanted to have EJ here, I don't see Zeller as the kind of guy that can pull that many people though, EJ? Yes, Hayward? yes, Zeller? I'm not sure.

Heisenberg
02-07-2013, 05:43 PM
This might be more reflective of my person feelings of the winter months, but do you guys think the weather plays a part in attendance? Not a major part I'm sure, but when it's bitterly cold and/or snowy, I am much less inclined to get in my car, drive downtown, find parking that may or may not be that close to the arena, and walk through the crappy cold to get to the game. Obviously that's an issue for any cold weather city and I'm not using it as an excuse or even think it's a major reason, but do we think it plays a part?
Course it does, especially for families.

boombaby1987
02-07-2013, 05:44 PM
I guess that green was too dark. I shoulda known better than to use "black green". It looks more like a "green black" to me anyway.

I am usually good at picking up on Sarcasm. Guess not today. :laugh:

cdash
02-07-2013, 05:44 PM
Attendance is another reason why I wanted to have EJ here, I don't see Zeller as the kind of guy that can pull that many people though, EJ? Yes, Hayward? yes, Zeller? I'm not sure.

Why EJ and Hayward but not Zeller? If you are trying to cater to the massive college fanbase in the state, few are more beloved than Cody Zeller.

Pacergeek
02-07-2013, 05:44 PM
Sitting at lower level >> watching on TV >>>> sitting upper level

Since86
02-07-2013, 05:45 PM
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who specifically state "yeah I'd go but the food's too expensive." That's just an awful excuse.

Kinda my point. To YOU, it's an awful excuse. For other people, that's reality. When someone is telling you their reason for not going, saying "that's an awful excuse" does absolutely nothing to help the situation.

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 05:45 PM
Why EJ and Hayward but not Zeller? If you are trying to cater to the massive college fanbase in the state, few are more beloved than Cody Zeller.

I don't think Zeller is going to be that good at least EJ or Hayward have the potential to be all stars one day.

Cousy47
02-07-2013, 05:47 PM
I am usually in Indiana in May through September...... Sometimes I am only passing through. I used to attend quite a few games. I am also alone and I don't find it much fun to do that kind of thing alone. Just me, I guess..... :cool: ...

No I don't think it's just you. Before I retired a couple of buddies had season tickets to the Pacers and the Colts. If you have 12-15 people you pal around with and 4 tickets to every game, it covers those seats for every game. When your work friends and kids move away to another city or state, going to the games are not nearly as much fun. Maybe PD should rent a suite with donations and have a little lottery for tickets to each game. Maybe you should buy a 4-10 seat block when you're in town and invite folks from the forum to join you. We shared Colts tickets the same way with the owner always having first pick of games of course.

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 05:50 PM
No I don't think it's just you. Before I retired a couple of buddies had season tickets to the Pacers and the Colts. If you have 12-15 people you pal around with and 4 tickets to every game, it covers those seats for every game. When your work friends and kids move away to another city or state, going to the games are not nearly as much fun. Maybe PD should rent a suite with donations and have a little lottery for tickets to each game. Maybe you should buy a 4-10 seat block when you're in town and invite folks from the forum to join you. We shared Colts tickets the same way with the owner always having first pick of games of course.

I would do that.....:cool: ...

BillS
02-07-2013, 05:51 PM
I went through a couple years where it just wasn't financially feasible. This conversation isn't new, and when I would tell people about how expensive gas was/tickets/food/etc was only to be met with "yeah its not expensive, just do ______(like eat before)." It belittles the person and what they're saying about their personal situation.

I knew what I could and couldn't afford, I had to make decisions on what I wanted to spend my money on. When people are telling you that you're wrong, about your financial situation, it just doesn't do anything to move the solutions forward.

$12 tickets might not that be expensive to some of you guys, but the cost of gas alone is a deterrent for some people. That's one major drawback of Indiana. Everything is so spread out, it's not like you have a couple million people packed in the metro area like other places. It takes a much larger percentage of Indy and the surrounding area to fill those seats than it does in Chicago, or ATL, or NYC.

I think that even in our arguments on the subject I gave you the benefit of understanding your <i>personal</i> situation. It's just that too many times that gets extrapolated to be the overarching reason why ANYONE doesn't go to the games. It isn't that "gas is too expensive", it is that "gas is too expensive for someone in your position" - and, far to often, the implication is that if one person can't afford it then no one can afford it so stop even talking about it or else reduce prices to compensate for something the Pacers have no control over.

We as a whole really need to understand there are multiple target markets. The target market for people attending the games regularly is a much smaller area around downtown Indianapolis than the target market for people to watch the broadcasts/listen to the radio/buy gear/come to a game once or twice a year. The people in those markets will have different drivers.

In particular, I'd LOVE to see PS&E and FSI give away a free "night at the game" (transportation, tickets, food) to the winner of a survey drawing where the questions are about WHY someone watches the game rather than goes to see it - which includes location information, income information, and so forth. Advertise it ONLY on FSI/1070/webcast, not at the games or through email or other advertising in order to try to target the responses. It still would be unscientific since it would be "opt in" but it could get a whole lot of real info. Is it the game start time? The game end time? Concession prices? Parking? Features available on the TV broadcast? Short attention span?

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 05:52 PM
I don't think Zeller is going to be that good at least EJ or Hayward have the potential to be all stars one day.

I also think that he will be a lifetime back-up from what I have seen of him. He is too frail to play center in the NBA and he isn't mobile enough to be a PF....:cool: ...

Trophy
02-07-2013, 05:52 PM
I'll ask this question again, why does it seem to be only the Pacers? "Too cold out, too much money, it's Monday!" Yet, so many teams draw much better than we do and we're a top team.

You would think after so many years of sellouts nearly every game in BLF's opening years, those fans would rush back to see this team that's becoming very much like that Pacers team. Additionally, there was standing room only during the playoffs, so it's not like the success of this team is unknown.

Based on history, you would think the frequent sellout crowds every game are soon to come, but when?

cdash
02-07-2013, 05:53 PM
I also think that he will be a lifetime back-up from what I have seen of him. He is too frail to play center in the NBA and he isn't mobile enough to be a PF....:cool: ...

Says the guy who is so sickened by NCAA sports and the vile program at Indiana University that he refuses to watch college sports anymore...

Roaming Gnome
02-07-2013, 05:54 PM
It's easy to point out that there is an issue with attendance, but It seems nearly impossible for anyone to come up with solutions that don't involve giving away tickets at an extreme level. Honestly, I don't expect Rome to be re-built in a day in regards to attendance. I was around in the 90's and MSA didn't become the place to be for a few seasons after our breakout in the '94 Playoffs. Heck, I was able to get "day of game" walk up tickets for the first 2 play-off rounds in both '94 & '95. It wasn't till the ECF's that tickets were at a premium here in Indy. Guess my point is winning and time.

Look at the strides in the court of public opinion with the team. Look at how much Pacer gear you now see sold in stores and worn on the street. I now have employees of mine asking if I have extra tickets or if they can get my tickets where a couple years ago... I couldn't give them away!!!

I know there are those on here that always want to dog PS&E for not doing everything possible to get behinds in seats, but they're trying to make the BLF experience 2nd to none. I remember after my first trip to OKC Rob Laycock (RobfromPacers here on PD) asked me many questions about the Chesapeake Energy Arena in OKC. I went on to tell him that I didn't think much of the concourses, retail spaces or concessions, but I was totally blown away by the technology package in the arena bowl itself. I was amazed with how they used their LED Ribbons, Amazing Jumbo-Tron, and sound package. I told him that it makes what was done at Conseco seem like 15 years behind the times technology wise. I went on to tell him that a few of the many venues that I had been to had "1 up'ed" the Fieldhouse.

What happens a few short years later. An amazing technology package that was bought & paid for by PS&E. I have been to most of the Western Conference NBA venues (not been to Phoenix, San Antonio, N.O. or Memphis) and I can tell you without a doubt that the new tech package in the Fieldhouse TOTALLY BLOWS AWAY ANYTHING THAT I'VE SEEN. These things don't happen without effort from the team to make the experience at the Fieldhouse something worthy of leaving the house for!

On a personal level... I can't tell people how to spend their money, but it sure as hell gets old hearing the excuses of people who SAY they want to go, know they have the money to go, but whine and not go because of the price of tickets & parking or blather about how inconvenient it is... I've just come to the realization that some people will not go unless they're fed, handed a ticket & chauffeured to the Fieldhouse. I'm over them folks because they're just looking for a freebie. Here is a heads up.... NBA basketball in Indianapolis is about the cheapest you'll see LIVE MAJOR LEAGUE PROFESSIONAL ENTERTAINMENT anywhere in the country. Decent seats can usually be had for less than $30 at the Fieldhouse with a little effort. Before someone shouts me down and says $30 is easy for you to come up with... Everyone in Central Indiana isn't friggin' poor or lacks disposable income. If that were the case, there'd be a whole hell of a lot fewer bars and movie theaters in Indy.

Oh, Try taking a family of 4 to a first run movie... The kids aren't interested unless it's 3-D. Gotta get popcorn, candy & Sodas. Yeah, right in line with balcony seats and all the trimmings at BLF for Live Entertainment!

Gamble1
02-07-2013, 05:56 PM
Sitting at lower level >> watching on TV >>>> sitting upper level

So true. The NFL has the same problem IMO. For half the staduim its a better experience (factoring in cost) to watch it on TV.

BillS
02-07-2013, 05:56 PM
Kinda my point. To YOU, it's an awful excuse. For other people, that's reality. When someone is telling you their reason for not going, saying "that's an awful excuse" does absolutely nothing to help the situation.

It depends. If they are people who go to Colts games but say they don't go to Pacer games because "the food is too expensive" then it IS an awful excuse - the concessions are pretty much the same price.

I have tried to drill down to WHY a person thinks the food is too expensive, and where they go for similar entertainment and what they spend, rather than just dismissing it.

On the other hand, when people say food is too expensive because they think a plain hot dog is $10 and a Pepsi is $8 are basing their reasoning on false information. They themselves can't just shrug when presented with other evidence and more-or-less say "Just because you go to lots of games doesn't mean you know what things cost", either.

Heisenberg
02-07-2013, 05:56 PM
I guarantee Zeller would bring a number of people who've never had any interest in the Pacers whatsoever. How big a number? Don't really know, but not an insignificant one. That kid is the second coming to a lot of people. Not that he'll ever be a Pacer so it's moot anyway, but still.

BillS
02-07-2013, 05:57 PM
I also think that he will be a lifetime back-up from what I have seen of him. He is too frail to play center in the NBA and he isn't mobile enough to be a PF....:cool: ...


Says the guy who is so sickened by NCAA sports and the vile program at Indiana University that he refuses to watch college sports anymore...

I'm warning people right now that if this thread is hijacked to a discussion about particular players the delete button is coming out.

Since86
02-07-2013, 05:59 PM
I think that even in our arguments on the subject I gave you the benefit of understanding your personal situation. It's just that too many times that gets extrapolated to be the overarching reason why ANYONE doesn't go to the games. It isn't that "gas is too expensive", it is that "gas is too expensive for someone in your position" - and, far to often, the implication is that if one person can't afford it then no one can afford it so stop even talking about it or else reduce prices to compensate for something the Pacers have no control over.


I don't mean to imply that we should stop talking about it, I meant to imply we need to stop belittling/mocking complete strangers when they give you a reason for why they don't go.






We as a whole really need to understand there are multiple target markets. The target market for people attending the games regularly is a much smaller area around downtown Indianapolis than the target market for people to watch the broadcasts/listen to the radio/buy gear/come to a game once or twice a year. The people in those markets will have different drivers.


Completely agree. But if you're going to price yourself into a smaller market, and you don't get fans to come see you, then perhaps the idea of smaller marketing isn't the greatest choice.

BillS
02-07-2013, 06:00 PM
I guarantee Zeller would bring a number of people who've never had any interest in the Pacers whatsoever. How big a number? Don't really know, but not an insignificant one. That kid is the second coming to a lot of people. Not that he'll ever be a Pacer so it's moot anyway, but still.

Seriously, how many people do you think Hill brought?

We think because when a guy is on another team and we see a bunch of fans coming with his jersey when the other team is in town that translates to that many fans every game if the player was just playing for the Pacers. In reality, if a guy on a west coast team draws an extra 2,000 people the one time he comes back to Indy, I'd bet that would mean drawing no more than an extra 75 people per home game if he played here. Not horrible, but not even enough to raise the team one place in the attendance standings.

OlBlu
02-07-2013, 06:00 PM
Says the guy who is so sickened by NCAA sports and the vile program at Indiana University that he refuses to watch college sports anymore...

I watch highlights occasionally....:cool: ...

Since86
02-07-2013, 06:03 PM
It depends. If they are people who go to Colts games but say they don't go to Pacer games because "the food is too expensive" then it IS an awful excuse - the concessions are pretty much the same price.

I have tried to drill down to WHY a person thinks the food is too expensive, and where they go for similar entertainment and what they spend, rather than just dismissing it.


There's a BIG difference in 8 home games per year and 41. The rarity of the event forces people to choose those limited dates. Games against the Pats get sold out by the people who are able to afford themore expensive tickets. That makes the casual fan who splurges on one game per year limited to the crappy teams where box office tickets are available, or the secondary market is cheaper.

The NBA has brought a lot of this on themselves and the chickens are just coming home to roost.

Heisenberg
02-07-2013, 06:04 PM
Seriously, how many people do you think Hill brought?

We think because when a guy is on another team and we see a bunch of fans coming with his jersey when the other team is in town that translates to that many fans every game if the player was just playing for the Pacers. In reality, if a guy on a west coast team draws an extra 2,000 people the one time he comes back to Indy, I'd bet that would mean drawing no more than an extra 75 people per home game if he played here. Not horrible, but not even enough to raise the team one place in the attendance standings.
Hill, McBob, Conley, Oden, Hawyard, Randolph, whomever, none of them went to IU and led them back to a #1 ranking and we'll see how much farther. The circumstances are not the same really at all. Seriously, that kid is a folk hero.

Cousy47
02-07-2013, 06:05 PM
This is a slight tangent but feeds off the idea of other threads--say the Pacers drafted Victor Oladipo or Cody Zeller. For argument's sake, let's say the on court record stays more or less the same. Does the connection to beloved IU players affect attendance noticeably?
Maybe for the first year or so depending on how much playing time they get and how well they perform. After that, some new IU stars will have come along and the folks who went to school with those 2 will have moved on to other places and other times. The fans who stay in Indy will probably stay with the Ps with or without those 2 players after that. I always felt that's why the Ps signed Damon Bailey, remember how well that worked out?

Trophy
02-07-2013, 06:05 PM
I don't mean to imply that we should stop talking about it, I meant to imply we need to stop belittling/mocking complete strangers when they give you a reason for why they don't go..

Why does it seem to be the Pacers having this issue? Nothing is adding up. They can complain all they want about the balcony, but how come so many other teams fill up all over their arenas. Considering, BLF is one of the best in the league and it only gets better every season.

Again, out of the 65,000 or so who go to the Colts games, you would think just a quarter of them would be also go to Pacers games often. I know 8 home games to 41 home games, but still. The Pacers are a top level team and they should be able to get a good amount of those people to fill up BLF about 90% per game, at least.

There's plenty of people in Indy and around it. It's a good sports city/state. They've come out and supported the Pacers, greatly in the past.

cdash
02-07-2013, 06:07 PM
Maybe for the first year or so depending on how much playing time they get and how well they perform. After that, some new IU stars will have come along and the folks who went to school with those 2 will have moved on to other places and other times. The fans who stay in Indy will probably stay with the Ps with or without those 2 players after that. I always felt that's why the Ps signed Damon Bailey, remember how well that worked out?

I don't totally disagree, but Damon Bailey was never going to be an impact player on the court in the NBA, and everyone knew that. You bring in someone like Zeller or Oladipo and I think the narrative changes. I'm asking how much it would change. My guess is that it would not move the needle a great deal, just throwing it in there for discussion.

jeffg-body
02-07-2013, 06:08 PM
For me personally it is more of a cah flow issue. I was laid off from my job and had to take a 6$ per hour pay cut. I might go to a few Fever games this year with my daughter because she loves them.

BillS
02-07-2013, 06:11 PM
Completely agree. But if you're going to price yourself into a smaller market, and you don't get fans to come see you, then perhaps the idea of smaller marketing isn't the greatest choice.

Not saying that. I'm saying you market differently to the people for whom it is a splurge to go vs. the people who can come regularly because they don't have the same travel time and non-game cost issues (like gas). You don't price your tickets down to what you think the distant folks can afford - especially since a realistic view shows that the costs that are a problem AREN'T the ticket costs and the time issues won't be fixed by changing game times.

For instance, if the problem is that people think the balcony is so horrible that $10 is too much, then I want to know why a balcony Colts ticket at $100 (which is a FAR worse seat, in my opinion) is just fine. It isn't because there are fewer of them - Fieldhouse capacity times 41 is pretty consistent with LOS capacity times 8. Is it just the difference in popularity between NFL and NBA? Then people need to answer "because I don't like the NBA as well as the NFL". Is it the perception of the game as an event? Is it the day/time issue (Sunday is better than a weeknight)? And then, why do these issues not affect teams who also share a city with an NFL team? What about ones who share with an MLB team (talk about WAY too many home games...)?

Like anything else, we want to oversimplify the situation, and some of the responders oversimplify to the point that they make PS&E responsible for travel times/gas costs/parking. If those things are what keeps people away, there is nothing PS&E can do about it - but most of those people (note I said "most") simply say "ticket prices" when they mean "overall cost". And, as I said before, sometimes their idea of the costs is out of line with reality (thus my sarcastic original reply).

cdash
02-07-2013, 06:15 PM
Another tangent question: Do we think there is a generational gap issue at play here? The fans that are my parent's age (50-60) are more prone to having a distaste for the NBA culture in general. Not to mention, the days of the ABA Pacers are a more distant memory now. A lot of those passions have dissipated (save for the die hards on PD, which I think we all recognize are the exception as opposed to the rule--not just for "older" fans) and the hip hop culture has turned them off. That age group is more financially able to purchase these tickets and take their families out to games. The 80s were almost a complete dead period for the Pacers--the team sucked. That is another generation that is more financially capable of taking their families to games. The 90s brought back a renaissance for Pacer fans and created a new generation of fans (people around my age grew up with those Reggie teams and have been hooked since). Do we think this plays a role?

BillS
02-07-2013, 06:15 PM
:rolleyes:

I can type in red font, too.

I am telling you right now that I asked an IU related question and it's impact on attendance, and the discussion that followed was a natural progression from that. Delete away.

This would normally be a PM but I want people to understand.

Arguing about whether Cody Zeller is an NBA caliber player and who should be allowed to have an opinion on it does NOT add anything to the discussion of whether IU players would affect the Pacers' attendance. It's a topic drift, and one that hijacks the thread. This discussion deserves better than that. Open your own thread about the individual player, but this one ain't going there. Does that not make sense?

For example, this:


I don't totally disagree, but Damon Bailey was never going to be an impact player on the court in the NBA, and everyone knew that. You bring in someone like Zeller or Oladipo and I think the narrative changes. I'm asking how much it would change. My guess is that it would not move the needle a great deal, just throwing it in there for discussion.

is exactly as you are saying, a <i><b>good</b></i> follow up. Calling out someone for having a contrary opinion about Zeller is not.

cdash
02-07-2013, 06:15 PM
I agree with you too. It was a natural progression and there wasn't anything bad about it. I don't watch as you mentioned but I have seen some highlights and formed an opinion. I also read what others have to say......:cool: ...

A rare occurance (a first, no doubt): I actually agree with you about Zeller's NBA potential.

CableKC
02-07-2013, 06:17 PM
Wells doesn't get it. It costs $200 for a family of 4 for tickets in crappy seats in the balcony, you HAVE to buy a full meal at the Fieldhouse for another $200, plus there's the Gift Shop where if you don't spend $100 on a jersey you're a Bad Dad. Add the $50 for parking anywhere within the mile square and no one other than the rich can afford to go to a game.

Compare that to Lucas Oil Stadium, where they give tickets away for free, all food and drink are included, every seat is 3 rows back on the 50 yard line, and they pay you to park. Oh, and jerseys are $1.50 unless they are on sale for fifty cents.

Never mind that Jim Irsay pays the CIB billions of dollars per year for the privilege of having a team in town, while the Simons have long been part of an Evil Empire turning the thriving 1970s-era downtown Indianapolis into a wasteland in order to send the money extracted from the poor and homeless of the city via the CIB to their Crystal Palace in California.

Don't know why anyone would support such a bunch of bums. Run 'em out of town and let the Fieldhouse be used nightly for all the things that would sell the place out and bring business to downtown if it just wasn't for those damn thugs.
BillS, my sarcasm meter is off. Since I don't live in Indy...I have no clue if you are serious or not.

Can yo go to a Colts game for that cheap?

cdash
02-07-2013, 06:19 PM
This would normally be a PM but I want people to understand.

Arguing about whether Cody Zeller is an NBA caliber player and who should be allowed to have an opinion on it does NOT add anything to the discussion of whether IU players would affect the Pacers' attendance. It's a topic drift, and one that hijacks the thread. This discussion deserves better than that. Open your own thread about the individual player, but this one ain't going there. Does that not make sense?

It makes sense, but again, this thread is about attendance. I asked a question regarding a highly regarded IU player's potential impact on attendance. People have brought up the Reggie/Alford thing and Damon Bailey, but I think all IU fans knew they weren't going to be high impact NBA players. Zeller's potential NBA impact directly correlates to my point and the thread in general. Is it a slight tangent? Yes, but does it really warrant the admins busting out the erasers?

BillS
02-07-2013, 06:22 PM
BillS, my sarcasm meter is off. Since I don't live in Indy...I have no clue if you are serious or not.

Can yo go to a Colts game for that cheap?

No, in fact to take my Dad to the last game of the season would have cost $100 per ticket in the nosebleeds, and the nosebleeds at Lucas Oil are a LOT higher and farther away than the ones at BLF, even considering that football is a more spread out game.

You'd think that was the case, though, the way some people bellyache about Pacers prices that are half what they'd pay to go to the Colts. Look, if you like the NFL better than the NBA just SAY so, don't act like the Pacers are gouging you while it is a bargain for a Colts game. :sunshine:

BillS
02-07-2013, 06:23 PM
It makes sense, but again, this thread is about attendance. I asked a question regarding a highly regarded IU player's potential impact on attendance. People have brought up the Reggie/Alford thing and Damon Bailey, but I think all IU fans knew they weren't going to be high impact NBA players. Zeller's potential NBA impact directly correlates to my point and the thread in general. Is it a slight tangent? Yes, but does it really warrant the admins busting out the erasers?

It does when the replies begin to go ad hominem, which we have seen happen before and we know just what happens to the thread.

cdash
02-07-2013, 06:26 PM
It does when the replies begin to go ad hominem, which we have seen happen before and we know just what happens to the thread.

Fair enough. Point taken.

Since86
02-07-2013, 06:50 PM
Why does it seem to be the Pacers having this issue? Nothing is adding up. They can complain all they want about the balcony, but how come so many other teams fill up all over their arenas. Considering, BLF is one of the best in the league and it only gets better every season.

Again, out of the 65,000 or so who go to the Colts games, you would think just a quarter of them would be also go to Pacers games often. I know 8 home games to 41 home games, but still. The Pacers are a top level team and they should be able to get a good amount of those people to fill up BLF about 90% per game, at least.

There's plenty of people in Indy and around it. It's a good sports city/state. They've come out and supported the Pacers, greatly in the past.

The Pacers aren't the only team facing this issue. Most of the league is. That's why there was just another lockout. The NBA is getting premium dollar for advertising, their ticket sales suck. They say 75% of the league is losing money.

The Pacers have had awful attendance for pretty much all of the 2000's, even in 2003 when they won 61 games. The Pacers were just shy of a 90% capacity rate.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2003

All the older posters talk about the curtains in MSA. This is the norm, not the exception.

hoosierguy
02-07-2013, 06:53 PM
The sad reality is that Indianapolis fans are immensely fickle, the epitome of bandwagoners. We saw it with the Colts after the initial honeymoon upon their arrival in 1984 and the Manning era. The Colts had a lengthy season ticket waiting list when Peyton was under center and that disappeared almost immediately after his release.

CJ Jones
02-07-2013, 06:57 PM
I guarantee Zeller would bring a number of people who've never had any interest in the Pacers whatsoever. How big a number? Don't really know, but not an insignificant one. That kid is the second coming to a lot of people. Not that he'll ever be a Pacer so it's moot anyway, but still.

There's no doubt in my mind bringing in a Hoosier would help. Most of my friends couldn't care less about the NBA, but they're all IU fans. Bringing in one of these guys would get their attention I'm sure.

Since86
02-07-2013, 07:01 PM
Not saying that. I'm saying you market differently to the people for whom it is a splurge to go vs. the people who can come regularly because they don't have the same travel time and non-game cost issues (like gas). You don't price your tickets down to what you think the distant folks can afford - especially since a realistic view shows that the costs that are a problem AREN'T the ticket costs and the time issues won't be fixed by changing game times.

For instance, if the problem is that people think the balcony is so horrible that $10 is too much, then I want to know why a balcony Colts ticket at $100 (which is a FAR worse seat, in my opinion) is just fine. It isn't because there are fewer of them - Fieldhouse capacity times 41 is pretty consistent with LOS capacity times 8. Is it just the difference in popularity between NFL and NBA? Then people need to answer "because I don't like the NBA as well as the NFL". Is it the perception of the game as an event? Is it the day/time issue (Sunday is better than a weeknight)? And then, why do these issues not affect teams who also share a city with an NFL team? What about ones who share with an MLB team (talk about WAY too many home games...)?

Like anything else, we want to oversimplify the situation, and some of the responders oversimplify to the point that they make PS&E responsible for travel times/gas costs/parking. If those things are what keeps people away, there is nothing PS&E can do about it - but most of those people (note I said "most") simply say "ticket prices" when they mean "overall cost". And, as I said before, sometimes their idea of the costs is out of line with reality (thus my sarcastic original reply).

I know that's not what you meant. I should have put a wink in there or something. I agree on the point, I just think it's a marketing mistake.

I don't think cutting your potential base down with outrageous markups is the brightest idea. I think people would be more than willing to pony up money for just a ticket. But when you start looking around and a tub of popcorn is $7, you're gonna **** a lot of people off. People work and the idea that you can eat before the game doesn't change the money part of the problem. You either pay out the nose at BLF or you pay out the nose at a fast food place. It's the same difference. People aren't going to wait until they get home to eat. They just aren't. So they don't go.

I deal everyday with problems like this. People call and complain about insurance prices, and want to change coverages. You change your deductible $500 and it lowers it $40 for the year. We like to compare it to going out to eat at MCL. You get a salad, you get a entree, you get your sides, you get a roll, you get a drink and by the time your done, you're at $12 for your plate. It's all the inflated prices across the board that makes the game so expensive. People just don't go to the games, to watch the games. They want beer/pop. They want popcorn. They want peanuts. They want cotton candy. They want actual food. If they didn't, I wouldnt' have to stand in line so damn long. When you start adding huge mark up after huge mark up, people just stop going because they can't afford all the other things they want.

My insurance example is that each coverage broken down isnt' all that expensive, by themselves. When you combine all of them, you get a pretty big surprise at the total. It's the same idea when you go out on the town. The gas by itself isn't expensive. The gas plus the ticket plus the food, etc is.


Movie theaters tried this too, and they're feeling it now. So is the NBA. When times are good, and people are making money, it's no problem. But when the economy stalls as it always does, professional sports is one of the last expenditures people are going to make. It's way more expensive than the movies, and they're failing, and it's way more expensive than going out to eat. People cut back on their expensive luxuries first.

I know I don't work 30mins to buy a damn tub of popcorn, I can assure you of that.

Derek2k3
02-07-2013, 07:02 PM
The sad reality is that Indianapolis fans are immensely fickle, the epitome of bandwagoners. We saw it with the Colts after the initial honeymoon upon their arrival in 1984 and the Manning era. The Colts had a lengthy season ticket waiting list when Peyton was under center and that disappeared almost immediately after his release.

Actually, it happened after the embarrassing decision by the Colts to tank. 2-14 isn't gonna get people excited.


No, in fact to take my Dad to the last game of the season would have cost $100 per ticket in the nosebleeds, and the nosebleeds at Lucas Oil are a LOT higher and farther away than the ones at BLF, even considering that football is a more spread out game.

You'd think that was the case, though, the way some people bellyache about Pacers prices that are half what they'd pay to go to the Colts. Look, if you like the NFL better than the NBA just SAY so, don't act like the Pacers are gouging you while it is a bargain for a Colts game. :sunshine:

In fact, seeing a Colts game is one of the least cost-effective sporting events. Including ticket price, food/drinks/parking, Colts games are very expensive. And the bleeds SUCK.

You can park in the Fieldhouse garage (For those that don't know, it's an attached parking garage) for $10-$12 (Can't remember) or literally across the road for $10. A family of 4 could sit balcony for $40-$80, Club for $80-$120, lower for $100-$150 without any problem. Soda's are what, $6 for a cup with free refills? You could get a hotdog/fries/drink for about $10-$12, there are specials that get it done for less. All in all, you can get your tickets, food, and parking for as little as $100 total.

PGisthefuture
02-07-2013, 07:02 PM
This is random and kind of off-topic, but Pierre Garcon just posted on Facebook and said "Who do you think will win the NBA Finals?" I was surprised at how many people said the Pacers. Here's a link:
https://www.facebook.com/PierreGarcon

This doesn't really have to do with the attendance at BLF, but I felt this thread was best suited to post it in. It shows we have a decent following imo, or at least that people are aware that we are a good team.

Lance George
02-07-2013, 07:36 PM
I'm guessing a lot of his Facebook friends are Colts fans due to his time spent here, and that many of those Colts fans are also Pacers fans.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 07:41 PM
The Pacers aren't the only team facing this issue. Most of the league is. That's why there was just another lockout. The NBA is getting premium dollar for advertising, their ticket sales suck. They say 75% of the league is losing money.

The Pacers have had awful attendance for pretty much all of the 2000's, even in 2003 when they won 61 games. The Pacers were just shy of a 90% capacity rate.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2003

All the older posters talk about the curtains in MSA. This is the norm, not the exception.

Stern stated in November, revenue has increased and more teams are making profits. So things have changed there and rightfully so.

Secondly, how are those bad attendance numbers from the 2000s? Unless you're expecting a sellout EVERY game like BLF's inaugural season, over 16K and close to 17K are solid crowds each game. Only a few teams actually average 100% capacity. Same goes in the other leagues.

That's what I think the average should be now and I think it'll get there.

Trophy
02-07-2013, 07:50 PM
Here is the attendance per home game this season and last season.

http://i47.tinypic.com/152ly0p.png

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=newsobserver&page=nba/teams/100/attendance.aspx?team=100

Peck
02-07-2013, 08:48 PM
This thread just like that thread the other day are just bewildering to me.

Our attendance is up from last season, we have had 2 sell outs in less than a week. The people in the state seem to at the very least like the team again and believe me from 5 years ago that is a vast improvement.

Of course the Atlanta Hawks didn't sell out on Tuesday night & no the Toronto Raptors are not going to sell out tomorrow night. That's just the nature of the beast. I have already proven that Philly's announced attendance was absolute B.S. by posting a link of a guy buying 18 tickets for 4 cents apiece and there is a photo of him in the row all by himself.

I'm telling you this is not an Indiana problem, this happens all over the league except for select markets.

Also while this upcoming home stand is good for the team eventually it will backfire when it comes to attendance because there comes a point in time where game fatigue will set in. Honestly even for me the back to back games of Chicago & Atlanta were hard to do. Let alone going three times in one week. But I can assure you that next Wednesdays game vs the Bobcats will have everyone ready to jump off of the bank one building I guess because if the announced attendance is above 12K I will be stunned.

BlueNGold
02-07-2013, 09:20 PM
Wells needs to face the facts. The Pacers made their bed by bringing in Artest, SJax, Tinsley, David Harrison, Shawne Williams, Rawle Marshall, etc. They took years to fix the situation embarrassing the franchise time after time and finally blew up the team. Then they bring in Jim O'Brien and his boy Troy Murphy. I'm sorry, but they deserve about a decade of work to rebuild fan support for that...or at least as many years they put this city through misery.

BlueNGold
02-07-2013, 09:23 PM
The sad reality is that Indianapolis fans are immensely fickle, the epitome of bandwagoners. We saw it with the Colts after the initial honeymoon upon their arrival in 1984 and the Manning era. The Colts had a lengthy season ticket waiting list when Peyton was under center and that disappeared almost immediately after his release.

That may be true, but the Colts got pretty good support pre-Manning...and the victories were coming with 4 field goals instead of touch downs. Who knows where the Pacers would be in terms of fan support if they hadn't caused their own problems post-Reggie era.

billbradley
02-07-2013, 09:25 PM
They need to have a good wifi connection and better phone signal, it sucks not to be able to do s*** on my phone.

They fixed that a week ago.

15th parallel
02-07-2013, 09:26 PM
There are many different factors here, I'll just mention some here. First is economy. Second is the lack of a star that drives casual fans in (maybe PG can change that). Third is the lingering bad reputation that many fans still remember. Fourth is the lack of exposure from national and international coverage. And fifth is the lack of promotion from national media (Dwight's drama anthology was a more talked about story than the Pacers success for example).

Peck
02-07-2013, 09:31 PM
They fixed that a week ago.

They did? They need to check it again then, both Monday & Tuesday I was suffering from rolling blackouts most of the game.

billbradley
02-07-2013, 09:38 PM
They did? They need to check it again then, both Monday & Tuesday I was suffering from rolling blackouts most of the game.

The wifi can be accessed by anyone now.

SycamoreKen
02-07-2013, 09:46 PM
I want to know why it seems to be only the people of Indiana?

Fans of other teams get to the games and fill up seats. Many are no where near as good as we are.

I know i'm not going to be the first to say this, but I don't buy those numbers. The Spurs have not had butts in the seats 99% of the time. They may have sold the tickets, but the seats are not full.

graphic-er
02-07-2013, 09:49 PM
What's with this idea that the Pacers need to be playing the elite teams for people to want to show up? I bought a half season package because I like watching this team. Why do the colts vs browns sell out? Nobody freaking cares about the browns. Every. One knew IU would blow out most of their preseason competition. Why sell out assembly hall for that? Obviously the expectation of a good game goes out the window in these situatios. But the Pacer must provide a great match up?

HC
02-07-2013, 09:53 PM
It depends. If they are people who go to Colts games but say they don't go to Pacer games because "the food is too expensive" then it IS an awful excuse - the concessions are pretty much the same price.

I have tried to drill down to WHY a person thinks the food is too expensive, and where they go for similar entertainment and what they spend, rather than just dismissing it.

On the other hand, when people say food is too expensive because they think a plain hot dog is $10 and a Pepsi is $8 are basing their reasoning on false information. They themselves can't just shrug when presented with other evidence and more-or-less say "Just because you go to lots of games doesn't mean you know what things cost", either.

We try to make it to a few Reds and Pacers games each year, but it is extremely difficult for us to do so. I don't think it is fair that you seem to want to categorize everyone who isn't as well off financially as using it for an excuse to not attend games because in most cases it is likely a reality as opposed to an excuse.

HC
02-07-2013, 09:54 PM
That may be true, but the Colts got pretty good support pre-Manning...and the victories were coming with 4 field goals instead of touch downs. Who knows where the Pacers would be in terms of fan support if they hadn't caused their own problems post-Reggie era.

I remember when you couldn't even give Colts tickets away.

BlueNGold
02-07-2013, 09:58 PM
I remember when you couldn't even give Colts tickets away.

You were a child when Harbaugh was here. He had lots of fan support.

Sandman21
02-07-2013, 10:55 PM
I'm pretty sure you can find some friends in area 55, just don't tell them who you are though ;)

Dale Davis, what do you think of this suggestion?

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/Iu2002/Murphy-DaleDavis_zps05d29883.jpg

Heisenberg
02-07-2013, 11:13 PM
You were a child when Harbaugh was here. He had lots of fan support.

and before the Cardiac Colts we were the Jags

ndcoltsnpacers
02-07-2013, 11:16 PM
Wells needs to face the facts. The Pacers made their bed by bringing in Artest, SJax, Tinsley, David Harrison, Shawne Williams, Rawle Marshall, etc. They took years to fix the situation embarrassing the franchise time after time and finally blew up the team. Then they bring in Jim O'Brien and his boy Troy Murphy. I'm sorry, but they deserve about a decade of work to rebuild fan support for that...or at least as many years they put this city through misery.

Oh man... I dunno, I disagree with every bit of this personally. To my knowledge, none of those guys had off the court issues prior to coming here (Williams may have? Not sure...). With that group though, it came down to the fact that we had so much talent on the team anyway and were willing to take on anyone to keep it going. The season after the brawl, when all of those players that were involved were back, I remember the fans supporting those guys. That was still a very good team that could have been a contender. Artest decided that season he didn't want to play here anymore and we benched him until we could find someone who would take him. That didn't take years. Jackson didn't have his issue at the nightclub until the 06-07 season and we traded him before that season was over. Again, that didn't take years. With Tinsley, it was a little more difficult to move him. His troubles started early in 07', but within a year he had played his last game as a Pacer before Bird banned him from the team and eventually bit the financial bullet on his contract. Rawle Marshall didn't spend more than one year with the Pacers. Shawne Williams was gone within a year of getting busted for weed when he was here. David Harrison was released months after he was suspended by the league for substance abuse violations.

They traded for Troy Murphy because they had to get rid of Stephen Jackson to satisfy fans such as you (not that there's anything wrong with fans like you). They had to take back bad contracts like Murphy and Dunleavy. That's the nature of the beast when it comes to guaranteed contracts. To get rid of Jackson at that point we were going to get fleeced. But the general feeling was that it was time to purge the team of it's troublemakers and move into a rebuilding phase, which takes years in the NBA. Jackson never had any legal problems again and had some of his best seasons after that. It was a bad trade because Bird went out of his way to appease the fan hood when in retrospect he probably should've held on to SJax.

Here's my question: do you hold the players who took part in The Brawl as being responsible for your viewpoint? Do you think we needed to blow that team up after that season's conclusion? I don't think it's fair at all to hold poor on court play against a team's current success. If that were the case, the Clippers might as well just shut it down. If you want to make the statement that the number of years where we had legal problems needs to be matched by years of bad attendance, ok let's look at that. If we're just talking Artest, SJax, Tinsley, David Harrison, Shawne Williams, and Rawle Marshall (I won't touch the etc...), the last of those players (Harrison and Williams) last appeared in a Pacers jersey on April 16th, 2008.... 4 years, 9 months, and 23 days ago. From the date of The Brawl, November 19th, 2004, to the date we last saw those players was 3 years 4 months and 29 days. The war's over. You can punch out now. Uh, move on. Let it go.

CableKC
02-07-2013, 11:30 PM
No, in fact to take my Dad to the last game of the season would have cost $100 per ticket in the nosebleeds, and the nosebleeds at Lucas Oil are a LOT higher and farther away than the ones at BLF, even considering that football is a more spread out game.

You'd think that was the case, though, the way some people bellyache about Pacers prices that are half what they'd pay to go to the Colts. Look, if you like the NFL better than the NBA just SAY so, don't act like the Pacers are gouging you while it is a bargain for a Colts game. :sunshine:
Okay....so, you were being sarcastic ;)

The Pacers went from one extreme ( all the talent in the world but dumb as rocks and a PR Nightmare ) to the other ( Milk drinking and high IQ basketball Team that is actually winning games with defense ) and still no one shows up. Frankly....I'm beginning to think that the people of Indianapolis don't deserve a NBA professional Team.

NOTE - This is coming from a guy that lives in the SF Bay Area and can only go to a Warriors game where it costs more to park in the Oracle Arena than it does to get a Philly CheeseSteak, fries and a soda at the Concession Stands while paying $115+ per ticket in row 17 in the Lower Bowl section to see the Pacers.

PacersHomer
02-08-2013, 12:14 AM
Okay....so, you were being sarcastic ;)

The Pacers went from one extreme ( all the talent in the world but dumb as rocks and a PR Nightmare ) to the other ( Milk drinking and high IQ basketball Team that is actually winning games with defense ) and still no one shows up. Frankly....I'm beginning to think that the people of Indianapolis don't deserve a NBA professional Team.

NOTE - This is coming from a guy that lives in the SF Bay Area and can only go to a Warriors game where it costs more to park in the Oracle Arena than it does to get a Philly CheeseSteak, fries and a soda at the Concession Stands while paying $115+ per ticket in row 17 in the Lower Bowl section to see the Pacers.

Nobody deserves an NBA team. That's not something that someone can just deserve.

xIndyFan
02-08-2013, 12:30 AM
. . . Frankly....I'm beginning to think that the people of Indianapolis don't deserve a NBA professional Team.

NOTE - This is coming from a guy that lives in the SF Bay Area and can only go to a Warriors game where it costs more to park in the Oracle Arena than it does to get a Philly CheeseSteak, fries and a soda at the Concession Stands while paying $115+ per ticket in row 17 in the Lower Bowl section to see the Pacers.

It is true that Indy is not a NBA town the way SF/Bay area is. Warrior fan support has been outstanding for years.

Trader Joe
02-08-2013, 12:48 AM
It would be interesting if for like 2 games, the Pacers just gave out completely free tickets and you could get like a free hot dog or something too. Yeah it's a lot of money down the tube, but it would make a lot of these ******** put up or shut up when it comes to whining about cost

Dr. Goldfoot
02-08-2013, 12:49 AM
I spend $17 on parking and concessions at every game. Tickets are available in all prices ranges.

boombaby1987
02-08-2013, 12:56 AM
I spend $17 on parking and concessions at every game. Tickets are available in all prices ranges.

Ok, so you spend $12 on concessions. What is that, a beer and a hotdog?

Dr. Goldfoot
02-08-2013, 01:03 AM
Ok, so you spend $12 on concessions. What is that, a beer and a hotdog?
A bottomless diet coke and a large popcorn that one of my sons and I share. $6 to park in the garage that's connected to the fieldhouse.

boombaby1987
02-08-2013, 01:05 AM
A bottomless diet coke and a large popcorn that one of my sons and I share. $6 to park in the garage that's connected to the fieldhouse.

Do you feel thats reasonable?

CableKC
02-08-2013, 01:25 AM
Do you feel thats reasonable?
That is highly reasonable to me...not only compared to a Warriors game but a SF Giants game....or ( I'm going to guess ) attending any other Professional Sports game.

CableKC
02-08-2013, 01:29 AM
It would seem that the general question surrounds interest in attending a Pacers game...compared to other
indy related sports events.

Question to all of you that have attended a IU or Butler game....how does the overall cost and overall logistics ( parking, driving to and from, etc. ) to attend a game compare?

PacersHomer
02-08-2013, 01:53 AM
It would seem that the general question surrounds interest in attending a Pacers game...compared to other
indy related sports events.

Question to all of you that have attended a IU or Butler game....how does the overall cost and overall logistics ( parking, driving to and from, etc. ) to attend a game compare?

Parking at Butler is free, tickets cost slightly less in the upper levels, and concessions are cheaper. Nothing surprising. More people should come down to Hinkle too!

Bball
02-08-2013, 02:18 AM
I haven't read the entire thread but there are some points I want to make...
#1 Blackness is a problem but it's not the color of anyone's skin, it's the darkness of the deep, dark hole Pacers basketball fell in. Many people gave up on the team. I think most will come back but it's not just flipping a switch and here they come. The team needs to keep doing what they are doing. As I said, I've been seeing and hearing more interest from corners where it had fallen away. I'm sorry but this organization dug the hole deeper before finally starting to climb out by their fingernails. Before blaming fans management needs to look in the mirror and the Indy sports archives. Then ask themselves if they are being realistic if they expect a turnaround to happen in a couple of seasons. Wanna speed it up... ECF... NBAF... But otherwise just keep building on the play and moving forward.

#2 Pacers marketing sucks. And do those "Blue Collar Gold Swagger" commercials play anywhere except on FoxSports Indiana? If that's all then maybe they are reinforcing a feel good connection for the fans and team BUT they are also just preaching to the choir. I think the next step in the comeback for fans will be national TV games (barring better marketing from PS&E). Being buried on cable/satellite channel 32673-1 isn't the stuff of stumbling across the team. As the team makes more appearances on national TV (read lower channels) they'll find themselves found by surfers and on the tube in bars more often. That's how you'll start getting some bandwagoners backs. That's how you'll get casual fans to sample the product again. How do you get on national TV? Playoff success... rivalries...

#3 Scalpers/Brokers... I think teams in other cities have inflated attendance numbers due to scalpers and brokers having tix. They are 'sold' tix, but they aren't necessarily butts in the seats. With the deep, dark hole Pacers basketball fell in IMHO the secondary ticket market dried up. I look for that to pick back up but it'll take 1 and 2 above falling into place.

#4 Wanna kill any momentum getting fans back? Morph these "Where are the fans" articles into "Could the Pacers Move?" articles to "Simon unsure of Fan's Commitment" to "Possible Destinations for Pacers" articles. Fans aren't going to rally around a team that could move. The more likely they believe a move to be, the more fans will want to emotionally disconnect. It's not going to rally support, it's going to dampen support. OTOH, by all means... Ask fans where they are and tell them what they are missing. Make a point of showing lofty win streaks, division standings, playoff seedings, national recognitions, etc etc etc....

Bball
02-08-2013, 02:27 AM
Oops I forgot...
I also wanted to mention concession prices... They ARE too high.
I don't understand the defense of 'eat at home'... c'mon...

First of all, most people do like to snack and have a beer or cola while they watch the game (home or live). So yeah, if you want to get people away from home to watch games the team might consider some 'dollar menu concessions'.

Also, kids get caught up in the atmosphere and want soda and hotdogs and ice cream... yada yada yada... So it's not necessarily realistic to say "Watch the game... eat and drink at home".

But again... A "Dollar Menu" could mitigate that.

I agree as far as meals go... Eat at home. Don't come to the game for the family meal. But have some 1.00 drinks and 1.00 popcorn options. They don't have to be pony keg sized drinks and ginormous popcorn tubs. Maybe some 1.00 dogs... or 1.50... too. Not everything has to be cheap. I'd make beer a little cheaper too.... but that is me...

imbtyler
02-08-2013, 02:35 AM
I've never understood people complaining about concession prices. You can't go a few hours without eating? Eat before the friggin game.

I mean, there's an Arby's right down the street, across from where you SHOULD park (for $5), and plenty of restaurants around. However, children are impossible to satiate, so I imagine that is where the Common Parent would have that perception. Also, I hadn't thought, until this moment, to sneak my own candies/snacks/pocketsizedflasks into a game. However, it's the popcorn that usually gets my drunken fan-raged self to relax for a moment.

By the way, I love going to Pacers games, and I only wish I could do it so much more often. I'd rather stand in Area 55 (or G2 Zone) than sit at home, or in my car, watching the game on my laptop. Hell yeh, it's expensive, but there are ways around that. Leave your car at the $5 parking, and walk down the street. Drink at PTO before the game. Grab a bite to eat before the game. There isn't really a way around the gift shop, besides petty theft, pre-game online shopping, and just NOT buying anything at the gift shop. I'm a broke college graduate with two jobs, I would love to get a new hat/shirt/jersey/coat/basketball, but I can't financially support the team any further than attending the game. That's ****ing life.

Brad8888
02-08-2013, 02:43 AM
If the focus was more on basketball (more content, less filler), and if those in attendance could somehow be given access to the outstanding commentary and analysis that both the radio and TV crews provide to their audiences every single game (perhaps over some sort of wifi that could only be accessed by ticketholders via personal headsets, maybe using qr codes or bar codes to access enhanced stats that are somehow more detailed than are available at home), the experience of regular season games could surpass that of the flat screen at home experience.

Also, as I have stated less succinctly elsewhere, the Pacers should show loyalty to those who have supported them with whatever full price ticket purchases over the years as opposed to disposing of them in favor of casual fans, simply because more eyeballs on the arena ad boards makes more money with an apparently more advertiser friendly demographic in the building.

The racism issues referred to by :cool: earlier are next to non-existent for basketball fans overall, and are virtually a non-factor for the purposes of this discussion. For lots of us, the all time Pacers team would likely be Mark Jackson at the point, Reggie at the 2, one of several outstanding black players at the 3 from both the ABA and NBA, Dale Davis or JO at the 4 (where he actually belonged), and either Darnell Hillman or the only white guy on this list being Rik Smits at the 5.

Also, other than for the purposes of attracting casual fans, the drafting of "home grown" talent is utterly meaningless by the time you get to the NBA, unless you are trying to attract casual fans who believe that their hero is going to be a hero in the NBA like the once in a generation combination of talents and purely stereotypical Hoosier traits that Larry Bird was. Talent sells tickets and merchandise far more consistently and in larger quantities than "homerism" ever has at the NBA level. Imagine if somehow the Pacers had determined that they absolutely had to go get Gordon Hayward as opposed to drafting the best actual talent in Paul George? What if Donnie Walsh had drafted Alford as the casual fans wanted, despite Reggie being the better professional prospect?

dgranger17
02-08-2013, 03:43 AM
In my worthless opinion, it's part of Wells (and Kravitz to a lesser extent) job to get our crowd excited about this team. I know some (or most) will disagree, but you can't talk **** about us for years in the Indy Star and expect us to all of a sudden to love the franchise. They should've been defending us since Day 1. I don't give a **** what our record is, what you think our future holds, or what you think we think.... if you want the fans to love this franchise, you stick by them... just like we did. You have a decent amount of the Indianapolis population reading your newspaper and/or website.... you've been dogging this team since Larry told us it would take some time and patience. The smartest guy in NBA history told us to be patient. Nobody was patient (including the IndyStar writers). Then all of a sudden Larry was right (he was obviously right since Day One... it's clearly obvious... or at least I hope so... because we're a contender). Now everybody is wondering why nobody in Indiana is on the Pacers bandwagon. I have a thought..... nobody who had a reach to the local people gave a **** about the team. It's sad. It's a joke. Yes, it's not all on Kravitz and Wells, but at least some of it is on them. They just talked **** for years. What do they expect the common local fan to think? If they don't watch the game and rely on you to learn about them, what are they going to think? They are going to think we're terrible and Larry Bird has no idea what he's doing.

Guess what!? Larry Bird just shoved his scrotum down your throat.

cgg
02-08-2013, 05:39 AM
I ate bbq at some place for $4 before game 6. Unless you have no time I don't see why you would want to eat in the arena anyway.

cgg
02-08-2013, 05:53 AM
I feel like driving to Indy to go to some games. I don't have any winter clothing though. Also, I'm not sure what driving in the winter is like.

idioteque
02-08-2013, 07:17 AM
I feel like driving to Indy to go to some games. I don't have any winter clothing though. Also, I'm not sure what driving in the winter is like.

Go in March, Indiana Februaries are unbearable if you've never experienced one.

cgg
02-08-2013, 07:19 AM
Go in March, Indiana Februaries are unbearable if you've never experienced one.

I experienced them for the first 8 years of my life. Is winter over in March?

BillS
02-08-2013, 07:30 AM
We try to make it to a few Reds and Pacers games each year, but it is extremely difficult for us to do so. I don't think it is fair that you seem to want to categorize everyone who isn't as well off financially as using it for an excuse to not attend games because in most cases it is likely a reality as opposed to an excuse.

How did you get that from what I said? I am saying that it is fine to say you aren't attending games because you can't afford them unless you are going to a similar form of entertainment (another sporting event) that is as expensive or more expensive. Then the reason isn't the cost, it is that it is not your choice of sports entertainment. That's ABSOLUTELY FINE, but in that case b**ching about the cost is not just a false reason (thus, an "excuse"), it ultimately does not help PS&E correct the problem. If they reduce all the prices they have control over and take a beating but people still don't come because they'd rather go see IU or Purdue or the Colts then it has all been a big waste of time.

I've also said there is a different way to attract fans who can only go to a game or two per year vs. those who can come to multiple games or all games, and that they SHOULD try to do so.

By the way, I agree that the concession prices are out of whack - especially this year, when beer went up by about 15% :buddies: :cry: I would not be surprised if some of that is the special tax - I'd love to see them publicize the breakdown - but, overall, they are about like airport prices. Captive audience and all that.

However, as an example, $4.50 for a large popcorn or $7 for an unlimited refill tub is on par with what is charged at a movie theater, so all things are not incomparable.

I'd love to see something like a prepay discount card - like, you buy a card for $25 that gives you $30 or $35 worth of food (excluding alcohol) and doesn't expire.

BillS
02-08-2013, 07:32 AM
I experienced them for the first 8 years of my life. Is winter over in March?

Hell, the last couple of years winter has practically been over by Valentine's Day. :kickcan:

Of course, I'm odd. I LOVE winter - it's easier since I work from home and don't have to drive anywhere :evillaugh

cgg
02-08-2013, 07:36 AM
Hell, the last couple of years winter has practically been over by Valentine's Day. :kickcan:

Of course, I'm odd. I LOVE winter - it's easier since I work from home and don't have to drive anywhere :evillaugh


It's 70 degrees right now and I have the heat on. My only real concern though is driving.

Unclebuck
02-08-2013, 08:00 AM
See you answered your own question. Some teams are much more realistic about attendance than others, like the Pacers. Others really just come up with extremely unrealistic numbers. I wish teams were required to have the exact same process of recording attendance.

Every NBA team is required to adhere to the exact same process. What can vary is how many free or comped tickets are given away. And the NBA does not report no shows and that is the other variable.

Unclebuck
02-08-2013, 08:12 AM
This might be more reflective of my person feelings of the winter months, but do you guys think the weather plays a part in attendance? Not a major part I'm sure, but when it's bitterly cold and/or snowy, I am much less inclined to get in my car, drive downtown, find parking that may or may not be that close to the arena, and walk through the crappy cold to get to the game. Obviously that's an issue for any cold weather city and I'm not using it as an excuse or even think it's a major reason, but do we think it plays a part?


Sure it is a factor, but I also think it would it might work the other way. For example, lets say they play a game in the middle of May - the weather is beautiful and the sun is up until 9:00 - that also works against attendance - a lot of people will say it is too nice to be inside, they might have kids baseball or soccer games to go to, they might want to play golf.

My point is there is always an excuse. Also, we are only tallking about 3500 people per game, that isn't that many in our metro area. Reading this thread, it almost appears like we are asking 45,000 new people to start going to games, no just 3500 on average.

I want to also make a comment, that I don't think is a major factor in not averaging 3500 more per game. There are many sports fans, even some basketball fans in which the NBA/Pacers are not even on their radar. What I mean it is not even an option for them, never has been, never will be. They don't watch it, they have no interest in it at all.

naptownmenace
02-08-2013, 08:56 AM
Wells doesn't get it. It costs $200 for a family of 4 for tickets in crappy seats in the balcony, you HAVE to buy a full meal at the Fieldhouse for another $200, plus there's the Gift Shop where if you don't spend $100 on a jersey you're a Bad Dad. Add the $50 for parking anywhere within the mile square and no one other than the rich can afford to go to a game.

Compare that to Lucas Oil Stadium, where they give tickets away for free, all food and drink are included, every seat is 3 rows back on the 50 yard line, and they pay you to park. Oh, and jerseys are $1.50 unless they are on sale for fifty cents.

Never mind that Jim Irsay pays the CIB billions of dollars per year for the privilege of having a team in town, while the Simons have long been part of an Evil Empire turning the thriving 1970s-era downtown Indianapolis into a wasteland in order to send the money extracted from the poor and homeless of the city via the CIB to their Crystal Palace in California.

Don't know why anyone would support such a bunch of bums. Run 'em out of town and let the Fieldhouse be used nightly for all the things that would sell the place out and bring business to downtown if it just wasn't for those damn thugs.

Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy of Indiana sports "fans". When I was living in Indy, I always seemed to be able to go to at least 4-5 games a year and I was only making about $24,000 a year back then as a 20 year old. However, I think the problem is how the message is getting out to the casual fans. You can't beat them over the head with it or guilt people into going to the games and unfortunately, that's what a lot of the comments from this article come across as. Bitterness and begging doesn't sell tickets.

Instead it would be great if the local news channels featured a weekly fluff segment during the 6 o'clock news about one of the Pacers players. This would familiarize them with the team and little by little it would increase interest in the team. If they can get the news channels to buy in, the positive word-of-mouth could go a long way especially if they mention all the great pricing and deals the Pacers have for the rest of the season.

I think a grassroots movement would do wonders for the team as well. Pacers fans that do attend Pacers games should make sure their casual fan co-workers and classmates know when the Pacers play. It could be something as simple as mentioning that the Pacers play the Raptors, who just recently traded for Rudy Gay, tonight and that the Pacers will be trying to go for their 16th win in a row. Then later on mention how cheap the tickets are going for the game. Keep it up for about 2-3 weeks and if they are a fan of good basketball, I think their interest in going to a game would increase.

I live in Cincy and I have 2 guys that I work with that are Cavs fans that come up to me after every game to talk about how the Pacers are doing. This is because I kept planting little seeds of Pacers interest in our conversations about basketball.

vnzla81
02-08-2013, 09:15 AM
Another thing that keeps fans away and I know some are not going to agree with me is that until few days ago were the offense got better the Pacers have been a really hard product to watch, not only that but a lot of their competition has been mediocre at best.

I hate watching games against Detroit, Raptors, Wizards and all those scrubs teams, I watch those games at home(scrub games) but I don't really enjoy them, so if I don't enjoy them at home I'm not going to enjoy them at the building either.


No overreactions please, make this thread about somebody else, thank you.

Sandman21
02-08-2013, 09:17 AM
Instead it would be great if the local news channels featured a weekly fluff segment during the 6 o'clock news about one of the Pacers players. This would familiarize them with the team and little by little it would increase interest in the team. If they can get the news channels to buy in, the positive word-of-mouth could go a long way especially if they mention all the great pricing and deals the Pacers have for the rest of the season.


This is why I kind of wish the media had been able to film the dodgeball game that Roy, Paul, and George had with Area 55 and G2 yesterday on their day off. The video and story would have been great, but I understand why they weren't allowed in, the practice court was pretty well packed in as it was, and the team probably didn't want to hear vnzla complain that all 3 were risking injury by playing dodgeball. :D

pacerfaninga
02-08-2013, 09:39 AM
I know my situation is rather unique since I live in GA but I have made the trip once a season for the last three seasons up to Indy for a game including the second Heat game this season. Did I mention how damn cold it was for this southerner on 2/1? If I lived in Indianapolis you can bet I would be a season ticket holder and really I am not sure what more this team can do to earn some appreciation and support from the locals. Obviously a NBA championship wouldn't hurt but these guys thrive off of emotion and the more packed BLF is the more emotion they will have to fuel the fire.

vnzla81
02-08-2013, 09:43 AM
This is why I kind of wish the media had been able to film the dodgeball game that Roy, Paul, and George had with Area 55 and G2 yesterday on their day off. The video and story would have been great, but I understand why they weren't allowed in, the practice court was pretty well packed in as it was, and the team probably didn't want to hear vnzla complain that all 3 were risking injury by playing dodgeball. :D


Thanks for bringing up the dodgeball thing, I have a question, why don't the Pacers do this kind of things with regular fans as a way of PR and to show what kind of different guys they are instead of doing it with a group of fans that are going to be there not matter what and already have season tickets?

Or maybe do this type of things with everybody? I guess they need to try harder to bring casual fans back to the building.

Johanvil
02-08-2013, 09:47 AM
I've never understood people complaining about concession prices. You can't go a few hours without eating? Eat before the friggin game.

Thank you. I've read it several times on here but never posted in case someone took offense.
I always wondered why some people who go to the games feel that urgent need to eat too. Sure it's a nice option to have but you go to see the game. You could eat before or afterwards. Nothing will happen if you don't during the game.

RWB
02-08-2013, 09:47 AM
I've also said there is a different way to attract fans who can only go to a game or two per year vs. those who can come to multiple games or all games, and that they SHOULD try to do so.


So true Bill and the Pacers do a terrible job at this. The Mrs. and I only bought a 6 game package this season mainly because we can't make it. I work until 5:30pm and she doesn't get off work until 6:30pm. It's just not feasible to drive from the Terre Haute/Clinton area and make a ball game through the week. Ok no big deal we'll just attend weekend games.... Well for some reason the Pacers planning for packages seems to think weekend games include a lot of Fridays. Sorry folks when you work Monday-Friday that Friday game doesn't work out either. Bottom line on this.... if you're going to promote a weekend game package for sale make sure it's Saturday and Sunday games only please.

As others have already stated numberous times the amount of games is a killer. Went to a Rascal Flatts concert last night (please non country folks no $h!+ :D) and the total cost was $160 (2 tickets) row 3 seats from the stage plus Mrs. RWB got to go to a meet and greet with the band before the concert. Maybe a once in a lifetime experience and simply amazing for her. The only thing that matches something like that for her is during the playoffs and of course times she has got to talk to the players. A regular season game in the middle of winter while entertaining is like fast food. May fill you up but will be quickly forgotten.

Sandman21
02-08-2013, 09:54 AM
Thanks for bringing up the dodgeball thing, I have a question, why don't the Pacers do this kind of things with regular fans as a way of PR and to show what kind of different guys they are instead of doing it with a group of fans that are going to be there not matter what and already have season tickets?

Or maybe do this type of things with everybody? I guess they need to try harder to bring casual fans back to the building.
Logistics I would guess. There is only so much time that was available with the practice court for dodgeball. As for something like playing dodgeball with everybody, there's just no way, buy-ins weren't invited to attend last night, which I disagreed with, but fully understood why when the practice court sideline was completely full, could you imagine having 200+ people try and show up for dodgeball (and thats not including the logistical effort of making sure everyone has signed a waiver so that they can't sue if they get a concussion ;))? There's just no way. Unfortunately, when it comes to trying to include everyone, you are basically limited to autograph signings like the one Paul and Ian had at St. Vincent Sports Performance last week, and the Pacers hold those all the time.

BillS
02-08-2013, 09:59 AM
Another thing that keeps fans away and I know some are not going to agree with me is that until few days ago were the offense got better the Pacers have been a really hard product to watch, not only that but a lot of their competition has been mediocre at best.

There's something to be said for this, especially given that the media hype offense and pooh-pooh defense as simply a result of poor offense. I personally would rather see a hard-nosed battle with challenged shots , blocks, and contested rebounds rather than a game of H-O-R-S-E where everyone is given free rein to shoot open jumpers or get uncontested runs to the basket for slam dunks, but I know I am in the minority when casual fans are in the mix.

As far as "mediocre competition" goes, I really hate this reasoning (note I did NOT call it an excuse). The Pacers can only play who they are scheduled to play, it isn't like they can take the Bobcats off their schedule to add another Hawks or Spurs game. For people who only want to see a team win (an often-stated reason why people won't come to see a hard-playing team who are losing), they should be swarming those bottom-feeder games and loving every minute of them - in fact, most kids I watch ADORE those games. For the rest of us, it seems ironic to be saying we can't support a team who are winning too easily because an easy win is boring.

As quoted from the Great Race:

Leslie: It's been my experience, General, that there is little advantage to winning if one wins too easily.
Prince Hapnik: Rah! Oh oh, rah! Oh rah! Oh rah ah ah! What do you think of that, General?
General: An admirable point of view, for anyone but a soldier. In my profession, to win is imperative. To win easily is a blessing.

duke dynamite
02-08-2013, 09:59 AM
Thanks for bringing up the dodgeball thing, I have a question, why don't the Pacers do this kind of things with regular fans as a way of PR and to show what kind of different guys they are instead of doing it with a group of fans that are going to be there not matter what and already have season tickets?

Or maybe do this type of things with everybody? I guess they need to try harder to bring casual fans back to the building.

Liability.

And the fact of the matter is you will have 50 million kids that would want to do this, someone obviously is going to be singled out.

billbradley
02-08-2013, 10:04 AM
Thanks for bringing up the dodgeball thing, I have a question, why don't the Pacers do this kind of things with regular fans as a way of PR and to show what kind of different guys they are instead of doing it with a group of fans that are going to be there not matter what and already have season tickets?

Or maybe do this type of things with everybody? I guess they need to try harder to bring casual fans back to the building.

You are out of your mind. How about the KP GM seminar? The Pacers offer events and contests to the public. But it's ridiculous to have any complaints about players who buy season tickets for fans, who are playing dodgeball at WORK on their day off.

Naptown_Seth
02-08-2013, 10:07 AM
Wells has his story with one key fact - Miami and Lakers games sell out.


This answers EVERY COMPLAINT.

1) I don't like the NBA...except if Miami plays

2) I can't afford the games....except on nights when pricing goes to the higher premium level and scalper prices go up, then I can come on down.

3) I only support a winner....um, the PACERS were the winning team in those games (well, at LAL so far)

4) Parking costs...because parking is free and easy for Miami games.

5) Weekdays are tough...Miami has special powers to make Tuesday into Saturday, while Bulls make Mondays into Fridays.


The team has sold out games, and the Miami game doesn't even have the Chicago Bulls "transplant fans" or "drive down fans" angle (drive down for a Monday game?). If a Tuesday night game vs Miami can sell out then Indy 100% does have enough people willing to pay higher than normal game prices to come down during a weekday and pay for parking in these tough times.


So F*** YOU JERKS! Seriously. A few years ago I was all about olive branches and understood the misconception that the team was full of thugs even though it never quite was and those guys were long gone. But over at Star I had to fight with people about Jackson being the reason they wouldn't come out. So he was traded and I said "well". To that I got "well they aren't winning", which is a crap excuse but okay. So then they start winning and it goes to prices. But the Indy prices are insanely low compared to other cities, and I've gone to some of those other cities to compare and see games.


So what we have is a bunch of flat out LIARS. They are. This is not a basketball state, they don't really understand the nuances of the faster paced, more athletic NBA. They will relish in the sloppy minor league refs you get at NCAA or HS level, but lament the "terrible, biased" NBA refs. Indy fans like ONE THING - TITLE WINNERS. This is why Butler had few fans till a couple of years ago. IU has fans because Bob Knight won a bunch of titles, period.

And people that talk about the 90's teams are liars too. I was there and they weren't. They couldn't even get consistent sell-outs after they went to their first ECF. You know why? "That was just a fluke". This is what people said. And by the way, they did the same thing to the Colts. Most of you have heard me (or others) point out that PEYTON MANNING-HARRISON-EDGE-FREENEY AFC CG caliber teams had games BLACKED OUT LOCALLY. Not the crap teams. I mean in 2003, a f-bomb Super Bowl caliber team couldn't even sell out 8 home games in the small RCA dome.

They didn't sell out till Manning walked them almost into a perfect season and put their noses right into the smell of a Super Bowl. Why didn't they want to go? You might have guessed....they're never going to win the big one.




That's Indianapolis. If you aren't 100% going to promise me that the team will win a title and not "blow it" by coming in 4th, then I've got better things to do like watching NASCAR on TV.






* And you better believe there is a cultural aspect to this, but that topic could shut down the thread. The gist being that they see NBA players in a different light than the "controlled" student athletes.

BillS
02-08-2013, 10:08 AM
Thanks for bringing up the dodgeball thing, I have a question, why don't the Pacers do this kind of things with regular fans as a way of PR and to show what kind of different guys they are instead of doing it with a group of fans that are going to be there not matter what and already have season tickets?

Or maybe do this type of things with everybody? I guess they need to try harder to bring casual fans back to the building.

In some cases it's a matter of being one of the perks of being in A55/G2, which were open to anyone willing to commit. Not EVERYTHING should be for everyone, there has to be SOME reward for being a die-hard.

Promoting how cool it is to be in A55/G2 is promoting the team and promoting going to the games because it promotes an environment that is NOT part of the home viewing experience.

BillS
02-08-2013, 10:10 AM
And you better believe there is a cultural aspect to this, but that topic could shut down the thread. The gist being that they see NBA players in a different light than the "controlled" student athletes.

It has been mentioned and so far discussed rationally. If it can be discussed rationally, it won't cause a shutdown.

Naptown_Seth
02-08-2013, 10:13 AM
If you think fans aren't coming because of the quality of play then you haven't talked to any local fans.

They DO NOT KNOW WHAT TYPE OF BALL THE PACERS PLAY, so it's impossible for them to make a judgement call about it. They aren't saying "well I came to a few games but began to notice that they really emphasize defense and I prefer up-tempo".

Also - SEE FREAKING BUTLER. Butler made runs built around Stevens' lock-down defense. When they started winning, that's when people went.

vnzla81
02-08-2013, 10:15 AM
Logistics I would guess. There is only so much time that was available with the practice court for dodgeball. As for something like playing dodgeball with everybody, there's just no way, buy-ins weren't invited to attend last night, which I disagreed with, but fully understood why when the practice court sideline was completely full, could you imagine having 200+ people try and show up for dodgeball (and thats not including the logistical effort of making sure everyone has signed a waiver so that they can't sue if they get a concussion ;))? There's just no way. Unfortunately, when it comes to trying to include everyone, you are basically limited to autograph signings like the one Paul and Ian had at St. Vincent Sports Performance last week, and the Pacers hold those all the time.

I understand what you are saying but what I'm trying to say is that if you want to reach to casual fans you should try to do this type of things for them too, maybe not dodgeball, but something else, I guess it looks to me like they spend more time doing things for fans that are going to be there not matter what instead of doing things for fans that they want to be there in the future.

I also believe that autograph signings doesn't do it anymore for casual fans they should try to do something else, just my opinion on the subject anyway :)

Trader Joe
02-08-2013, 10:16 AM
IU, Butler, Purdue, Notre Dame in many ways Indiana is an amateur sports state (maybe the capital of such), and in basketball in particular we currently have an embarrassment of riches at the amateur levels. 40% of one POY watch list in college bball features guys who either play college ball in Indiana or played their high school ball here. That is crazy.

Naptown_Seth
02-08-2013, 10:17 AM
It has been mentioned and so far discussed rationally. If it can be discussed rationally, it won't cause a shutdown.
It will if I get into it because I'm TNT nitro over here, I'm the f***** Guns of the Navarone. ;)

I actually can curb away from an area if I try really hard, and even then I had to mention it. I spent the last 4 years working in a rural area outside of the city and you hear a lot of stuff from people that happen to love HS basketball and like talking about it at that level. I mean OFFENSIVE stuff, stuff that made me not want to talk with those people any more. So it's a hot button topic for me, one that makes me dislike my home state.

Trader Joe
02-08-2013, 10:18 AM
Also, I think some of you are overreacting.

Sandman21
02-08-2013, 10:18 AM
In some cases it's a matter of being one of the perks of being in A55/G2, which were open to anyone willing to commit. Not EVERYTHING should be for everyone, there has to be SOME reward for being a die-hard.

Promoting how cool it is to be in A55/G2 is promoting the team and promoting going to the games because it promotes an environment that is NOT part of the home viewing experience.
Not to mention the free advertising the team gets from Area55 and G2 members, and the fact that end of the Fieldhouse has gotten VERY loud over the last month or so. The Pacers are creating a great home court advantage as we speak....

Trader Joe
02-08-2013, 10:19 AM
Clearly there is not a disconnect between NBA culture and Indiana, that is bull crap, if that was the case we would not sell out for Miami, LAL, or OKC.

Also, the current Hoosiers are lead by just about the flashiest player in college basketball, a guy who first made his stamp through highlight reel dunks and cross overs (see Michael Kidd Gilchrist getting his **** rocked to sleep by Vic in Bloomington last year for proof). This is not a culture thing.

The Pacers lack one thing....a title. That is really what you need. If you don't believe me, ask the Colts who couldn't even sell out every game consistently until about 2005 and things didn't get really crazy regarding tickets until the Lombardi trophy was won in 2007

Also, RE: culture, let's not act like the NFL is full of model citizens, and yet they still sell out their games. Winning cures all, but it is a process, it's not gonna happen over night. Yeah I think at this point poeple are just making lame *** excuses, but that is what people do. They will be in there eventually.

cgg
02-08-2013, 10:24 AM
Cause our previous years with good attendance were so fast paced ?

Naptown_Seth
02-08-2013, 10:26 AM
Conor Lee-"I love the Pacers and the NBA game. But many old-school fans are turned off by the NBA in general. I have a feeling unless the Pacers land a marquee player, or make a seriously deep playoff run (Finals?), the fans will never return to those empty seats. Indiana fans like basketball, just not the NBA's version of basketball."
Perfect example of a lie being given away by contradiction within the statement. You don't like the NBA version of ball, but you would like it if the Pacers had a star or won a lot of playoff games. So what you are saying is that it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NBA VERSION OF THE GAME.

I can haz winner. Freaking childish babies.

duke dynamite
02-08-2013, 10:27 AM
I understand what you are saying but what I'm trying to say is that if you want to reach to casual fans you should try to do this type of things for them too, maybe not dodgeball, but something else, I guess it looks to me like they spend more time doing things for fans that are going to be there not matter what instead of doing things for fans that they want to be there in the future.

I also believe that autograph signings doesn't do it anymore for casual fans they should try to do something else, just my opinion on the subject anyway :)

You're missing the point. Casual fans wouldn't even know let alone care about playing "dodgeball" with a Pacers player.

Even more so the fact that any citizen in the STATE, yes, the STATE was given an opportunity to try out for a spot in Area 55 or the G2 Zone just shows that the team is willing to reach out to expand its fanbase.

Sandman21
02-08-2013, 10:28 AM
I understand what you are saying but what I'm trying to say is that if you want to reach to casual fans you should try to do this type of things for them too, maybe not dodgeball, but something else, I guess it looks to me like they spend more time doing things for fans that are going to be there not matter what instead of doing things for fans that they want to be there in the future.

I also believe that autograph signings doesn't do it anymore for casual fans they should try to do something else, just my opinion on the subject anyway :)
Like Duke said, you try and open something up thats not an autograph signing, you are going to get 50 million kids to show up. Nothing wrong with that (so nobody thinks I'm bagging on kids), but someone is going to get shorted. You are asking for something that can't be done easily, if at all. And they ARE doing special things for fans that they want to be there in the future, like the aforementioned KPritchard mini-seminar tonight, hell, Brooke/Denari/Boyle give away their spare tickets on Twitter all the time.

duke dynamite
02-08-2013, 10:28 AM
Perfect example of a lie being given away by contradiction within the statement. You don't like the NBA version of ball, but you would like it if the Pacers had a star or won a lot of playoff games. So what you are saying is that it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NBA VERSION OF THE GAME.

I can haz winner. Freaking childish babies.

I feel like if we just talk about this in person we'd either walk away feeling like complete *** or it will make us feel so much better about ourselves.

vnzla81
02-08-2013, 10:30 AM
There's something to be said for this, especially given that the media hype offense and pooh-pooh defense as simply a result of poor offense. I personally would rather see a hard-nosed battle with challenged shots , blocks, and contested rebounds rather than a game of H-O-R-S-E where everyone is given free rein to shoot open jumpers or get uncontested runs to the basket for slam dunks, but I know I am in the minority when casual fans are in the mix.

As far as "mediocre competition" goes, I really hate this reasoning (note I did NOT call it an excuse). The Pacers can only play who they are scheduled to play, it isn't like they can take the Bobcats off their schedule to add another Hawks or Spurs game. For people who only want to see a team win (an often-stated reason why people won't come to see a hard-playing team who are losing), they should be swarming those bottom-feeder games and loving every minute of them - in fact, most kids I watch ADORE those games. For the rest of us, it seems ironic to be saying we can't support a team who are winning too easily because an easy win is boring.

As quoted from the Great Race:

Leslie: It's been my experience, General, that there is little advantage to winning if one wins too easily.
Prince Hapnik: Rah! Oh oh, rah! Oh rah! Oh rah ah ah! What do you think of that, General?
General: An admirable point of view, for anyone but a soldier. In my profession, to win is imperative. To win easily is a blessing.


Don't get me wrong I don't think the Pacers are the only ones affected for crappy competition, I have seen empty places all over the country when local teams have to play Sacramento, The Bobcats, Detroit,etc, I mean if you look at how many good teams are in the NBA right now is kind of hard not to think that the majority of teams are mediocre, bad or horrible.

HC
02-08-2013, 10:33 AM
You were a child when Harbaugh was here. He had lots of fan support.

I know exactly who Harbaugh is, and I remember when Faulk was here as well. You think kids don't watch football? Anyways they had some good years, but pre Manning it was pretty much an embarrassment.

Sollozzo
02-08-2013, 10:34 AM
And people that talk about the 90's teams are liars too. I was there and they weren't. They couldn't even get consistent sell-outs after they went to their first ECF. You know why? "That was just a fluke". This is what people said. And by the way, they did the same thing to the Colts. Most of you have heard me (or others) point out that PEYTON MANNING-HARRISON-EDGE-FREENEY AFC CG caliber teams had games BLACKED OUT LOCALLY. Not the crap teams. I mean in 2003, a f-bomb Super Bowl caliber team couldn't even sell out 8 home games in the small RCA dome.

They didn't sell out till Manning walked them almost into a perfect season and put their noses right into the smell of a Super Bowl. Why didn't they want to go? You might have guessed....they're never going to win the big one.




That was almost ten years ago and it happened one time that season against one of the bad division teams. To trash the Colts fan base, you have to go back TEN YEARS to find something wrong with the support of the team. Manning left and we had an 87% renewal rate, i.e. 9 out of 10 season ticket holders continued to support the team despite the fact we lost one of the greatest players ever. In two seasons without Manning, we haven't blacked out a single game. Not one! The fact that you have to go back a decade to find a blackout tells you how great Colts support has been in recent years.

People don't support bad NBA basketball, which is what the Pacers were for many years in the 2000's. Look at Detroit's pathetic attendance. Yes, I realize that the city of Detroit has been hit hard economically, but there are still plenty of well off people in the suburbs around the area. Look at Philly's attendance woes in recent years. Heck, even Boston has been fickle.

In 2005, for example, the Pacers averaged more fans than the Celtics. This is despite the fact that Boston has a larger arena and is also bigger than Indy by millions and millions of people. The Pacers should never average more fans than Boston in a season, but they did. The Celtics are the team of championships, Bird, Russell, etc, yet no one gave a damn about them in the mid 2000's because there were better shows in town in the Pats and Sox. It was only with the addition of the Big 3 that Boston began caring about the Celtics again. It should also be noted that the Patriots had pathetic attendance in the early 90's before Robert Kraft bought the team and produced a better product. So don't let Boston fans fool you. They are no different than any other fan base, despite being one of the largest metros in the country. The bottom line is that people don't want to watch crappy NBA basketball.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2005

Some of the pathetic attendance at Pats games:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_New_England_Patriots_season

Multiple crowds at Foxboro stadiums in the 20 and 30 thousands rage. This is despite the fact that the Stadium sat 60,000 people. I don't even think the Colts ever got that low. This is freaking Boston we're talking about here. The supposed most "sports crazed" city in the country. It's an area with millions of more people than Indy. It's also one of the wealthiest areas in the United States. Yet no one was going to Patriots games because they were routinely a horrible team and Bostonians didn't want to support a loser. So I guess they should be called "JERKS" like the people in Indy you're referring to? See, they are no different than the people here who didn't go all in on the Colts until the Colts started producing. The Colts moved here in 1984 and had no history here whatsoever. Many in the area remained loyal to the Packers, Bears, Bengals, Cowboys, etc. The Colts had to build their own brand and identity. You don't do that overnight.

That's why I always call BS when people act like Boston is some utopia of sports fandom. They didn't give a damn about the Celtics in between the Bird years and the Big 3. They didn't care about the Pats until Belichick, Brady, and Kraft turned the team into a winner.

You act like people being fickle is 100% an Indy problem. It happens all over the country in markets that have millions of more people than Indy. The Pacers are the ones to blame for this. They had a brawl, off the court incidents, and unlikable players. They got rid of the bad seeds, but followed that up with some seasons featuring boring players and Jim O'Brien coaching. They were a pathetically run franchise for many years. Yes, things have rapidly turned around, but you don't get all of that fan support back overnight.

vnzla81
02-08-2013, 10:36 AM
You're missing the point. Casual fans wouldn't even know let alone care about playing "dodgeball" with a Pacers player.

I disagree, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would love to do this.


Even more so the fact that any citizen in the STATE, yes, the STATE was given an opportunity to try out for a spot in Area 55 or the G2 Zone just shows that the team is willing to reach out to expand its fanbase.

I might be wrong but it looks to me like a lot of the people in those areas were already hardcore fans, I know I wouldn't dress like that if I was not a hardcore fan ;) creating those areas is not bringing new people in.

Unclebuck
02-08-2013, 10:37 AM
Does anyone know what percentage of tickets for the who;le season are sold before the first regular season game? My guess is most are sold before the first game. I remember a few comments from the pacers that gone are the days when there is a huge walkup to buy tickets. Seems to me mosyt of the ticket windows are will call windows and not ticket selling windows. back 20-30 years ago, they sold a significant number of tickets right before gametime.

My point of mentioning this is while a great season can marginally improve current season ticket sales, ticket sales won't dramatically improve until the offseason - that is when tickets are sold now-a-days

duke dynamite
02-08-2013, 10:39 AM
The Colts became popular again when Arians took over and we beat Green Bay. This team was slated to win no more than 4 games going into the season. Sure season ticket renewal number looked good, but that was AFTER the owner went and said that the games would have to be blacked out if they didn't sell out.

billbradley
02-08-2013, 10:40 AM
I understand what you are saying but what I'm trying to say is that if you want to reach to casual fans you should try to do this type of things for them too, maybe not dodgeball, but something else, I guess it looks to me like they spend more time doing things for fans that are going to be there not matter what instead of doing things for fans that they want to be there in the future.

I also believe that autograph signings doesn't do it anymore for casual fans they should try to do something else, just my opinion on the subject anyway :)


I disagree, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would love to do this.


The Pacers open Area 55 and the G2Zone to the public. The same people that come out for that are the same people that would come out to play dodge ball.

And the Pacers do plenty of things for the public anyway. Give away free tickets. Open events with players to fans. A freaking GM seminar contest. What else do you want??

duke dynamite
02-08-2013, 10:42 AM
I disagree, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would love to do this.

Which goes back to my first point. As well as Sandman's. Liability is too big to open something like that up to the public. If you do, it makes the even less personal like the one last night and you will not get that personal experience.


I might be wrong but it looks to me like a lot of the people in those areas were already hardcore fans, I know I wouldn't dress like that if I was not a hardcore fan ;) creating those areas is not bringing new people in.

I can count using all of my fingers of the people who made both of those fan sections that I have never seen or heard of in that building to see a game. So there are plenty of new faces.

There were also a few of the Area 55 vets that didn't make it or try out this year and got regular season tickets. So it clearly is working.

BillS
02-08-2013, 10:45 AM
Perfect example of a lie being given away by contradiction within the statement. You don't like the NBA version of ball, but you would like it if the Pacers had a star or won a lot of playoff games. So what you are saying is that it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NBA VERSION OF THE GAME.

I can haz winner. Freaking childish babies.

I disagree. I think there are just two separate audiences, one of which is never going to show up because they don't like the NBA and one that would show up to jock a hyped superstar but won't show up otherwise. The quote is awkward, but I understand what's being said.

vnzla81
02-08-2013, 10:46 AM
The Pacers open Area 55 and the G2Zone to the public. The same people that come out for that are the same people that would come out to play dodge ball.

And the Pacers do plenty of things for the public anyway. Give away free tickets. Open events with players to fans. A freaking GM seminar contest. What else do you want??

You got stop been so defensive if you want people to have a conversation with you, calm down.

cinotimz
02-08-2013, 10:47 AM
Wells has his story with one key fact - Miami and Lakers games sell out.


This answers EVERY COMPLAINT.

1) I don't like the NBA...except if Miami plays

2) I can't afford the games....except on nights when pricing goes to the higher premium level and scalper prices go up, then I can come on down.

3) I only support a winner....um, the PACERS were the winning team in those games (well, at LAL so far)

4) Parking costs...because parking is free and easy for Miami games.

5) Weekdays are tough...Miami has special powers to make Tuesday into Saturday, while Bulls make Mondays into Fridays.


The team has sold out games, and the Miami game doesn't even have the Chicago Bulls "transplant fans" or "drive down fans" angle (drive down for a Monday game?). If a Tuesday night game vs Miami can sell out then Indy 100% does have enough people willing to pay higher than normal game prices to come down during a weekday and pay for parking in these tough times.


So F*** YOU JERKS! Seriously. A few years ago I was all about olive branches and understood the misconception that the team was full of thugs even though it never quite was and those guys were long gone. But over at Star I had to fight with people about Jackson being the reason they wouldn't come out. So he was traded and I said "well". To that I got "well they aren't winning", which is a crap excuse but okay. So then they start winning and it goes to prices. But the Indy prices are insanely low compared to other cities, and I've gone to some of those other cities to compare and see games.


So what we have is a bunch of flat out LIARS. They are. This is not a basketball state, they don't really understand the nuances of the faster paced, more athletic NBA. They will relish in the sloppy minor league refs you get at NCAA or HS level, but lament the "terrible, biased" NBA refs. Indy fans like ONE THING - TITLE WINNERS. This is why Butler had few fans till a couple of years ago. IU has fans because Bob Knight won a bunch of titles, period.

And people that talk about the 90's teams are liars too. I was there and they weren't. They couldn't even get consistent sell-outs after they went to their first ECF. You know why? "That was just a fluke". This is what people said. And by the way, they did the same thing to the Colts. Most of you have heard me (or others) point out that PEYTON MANNING-HARRISON-EDGE-FREENEY AFC CG caliber teams had games BLACKED OUT LOCALLY. Not the crap teams. I mean in 2003, a f-bomb Super Bowl caliber team couldn't even sell out 8 home games in the small RCA dome.

They didn't sell out till Manning walked them almost into a perfect season and put their noses right into the smell of a Super Bowl. Why didn't they want to go? You might have guessed....they're never going to win the big one.




That's Indianapolis. If you aren't 100% going to promise me that the team will win a title and not "blow it" by coming in 4th, then I've got better things to do like watching NASCAR on TV.






* And you better believe there is a cultural aspect to this, but that topic could shut down the thread. The gist being that they see NBA players in a different light than the "controlled" student athletes.

where is the million thanks button? and all these lame *** excuses only serve to further the point that far too many are just flat out lazy, good-for-nothing, sit-in-front-of-my-tv eating my dollar microwave popcorn, bitter, overweight hicks...they complain about everything...you know what? they loved the brawl years and thereafter....because it actually made them right for a change...and people actually had to give some validity to their excuse-making BS.....but no more...theyre shown to be what they really are now...screw em...who needs em...attendance is rising...i believe it will get there...and hopefully without all them...my only wish is that somehow they could be identified and then their home tv broadcasts could be shut down...let em go back to watching dukes of hazard reruns and not allow them the opportunity to watch the Pacers for free...one can dream...

Trader Joe
02-08-2013, 10:51 AM
You got stop been so defensive if you want people to have a conversation with you, calm down.

This is the funniest thing I've read on the board in like 6 months. Bar none.

Since86
02-08-2013, 10:52 AM
I think my point from pages 2-3 is pretty crystal clear now.

Instead of talking about what the NBA/Pacers can do to attract more people, let's just insult everyone who doesn't love the Pacers as much as we do. That will teach them!!!!

billbradley
02-08-2013, 10:57 AM
You got stop been so defensive if you want people to have a conversation with you, calm down.

Ha! Pray tell, how am I defensive? You just don't make any sense.

BillS
02-08-2013, 10:58 AM
I think my point from pages 2-3 is pretty crystal clear now.

Instead of talking about what the NBA/Pacers can do to attract more people, let's just insult everyone who doesn't love the Pacers as much as we do. That will teach them!!!!

Yeah, that attitude needs to stop.

vnzla81
02-08-2013, 10:58 AM
This is the funniest thing I've read on the board in like 6 months. Bar none.

I knew this comment was coming ;)

Big difference is that nobody is attacking him or laughing at his comments for him to be so upset about the conversation, so far everybody is having a good conversation going without ridiculing or pooping on somebody.

cinotimz
02-08-2013, 11:00 AM
People don't support bad NBA basketball, which is what the Pacers were for many years in the 2000's........ The bottom line is that people don't want to watch crappy NBA basketball.

Based on the last couple of years they dont support or want to watch really great NBA basketball either. Time to come up with a new excuse. Which they have. Food cost too much. Parking is too expensive. HD TV. Lack of mass transit. Yada yada. Its sooo old and sooo lame. People generally do what they want to do. They find a way. Most around Indy just prefer to sit their lazy, fat *** in front of the TV and ***** about how their life sucks... Pretty much pathetic.

RWB
02-08-2013, 11:14 AM
Most around Indy just prefer to sit their lazy, fat *** in front of the TV and ***** about how their life sucks... Pretty much pathetic.
If this is the marketing campaign to replace blue collar gold swager I think there may be a problem. :D

Unclebuck
02-08-2013, 11:22 AM
Most around Indy just prefer to sit their lazy, fat *** in front of the TV and ***** about how their life sucks... Pretty much pathetic.

I think that is it, that answers all the questions, we might as well close the thread. LOL

cgg
02-08-2013, 11:27 AM
Wells is on 1070 taking calls about this. Shaw is gonna be on in a few min.

RWB
02-08-2013, 11:31 AM
Wells is on 1070 taking calls about this.

Hope someone asks Mike if he has to pay for parking and food when he goes to Pacer games?

Trader Joe
02-08-2013, 11:38 AM
Hope someone asks Mike if he has to pay for parking and food when he goes to Pacer games?

I don't understand what this has to do with Mike's opinion. It is his job to share his opinion via the newspaper. The fact he attends games for free is irrelevant. If I was Mike and someone asked me that question, I would answer that the cost for him to attend games is the time and money he spent on his education to build his career to where it is now.

Hicks
02-08-2013, 11:44 AM
I think the simple truth is just not that many people around here give a damn about the Pacers and/or the NBA. Clearly they're content with something else to occupy their time.

And in this day and age, I don't know that you can sway them.

The closest thing I can imagine would be to sway the bandwagoners who love to see the Bulls/Heat/Lakers with a superstar of our own. If Paul George can reach that level, I can see that making a dent in our attendance woes.

Indra
02-08-2013, 11:51 AM
I don't disagree that there are some people for whom this is an issue, but I seriously doubt it is the difference between our current attendance and selling out. If we had LBJ we'd be selling out even though he isn't white - the hype would overcome it.

There IS something to be said about the cultural aspect of the NBA - I think most people with money in central Indiana are not likely to be drawn to games with hip-hop themes. Now, that being said, the Fever do a LOT more hip-hop than the Pacers and yet they still sell to a very white audience. The ticket prices may have something to do with that, along with the idea that they are more like a college team in terms of atmosphere and loyalty. They don't sell NBA numbers but compared to the rest of the WNBA (and compared to the cost of ownership of a WNBA team) they do very well.

What exactly is a "hip-hop theme," or is that just Hoosier code for black people? The lack of attendance has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with miscreants breaking the law several years ago, fighting fans, getting shipped out, and having a sub-par product for many years up until two years ago. If people stopped going to the games because the players were black, not because they were criminals, then I think I severely misunderstand the past. If my memory serves me correctly, the Pacers had excellent attendance with four out of five starters being black back in the 90's and early aughts. When the pacers had several white players on the team (Murphy, Dunleavy, Foster, Hansbrough, etc...) attendance sucked. Again, this is not a race issue as much as OlBlu wanted us to draft Griffin. As a general rule of thumb, don't ever agree with OlBlu. He's as clueless as anyone I've ever seen.

RWB
02-08-2013, 11:55 AM
I don't understand what this has to do with Mike's opinion. It is his job to share his opinion via the newspaper. The fact he attends games for free is irrelevant. If I was Mike and someone asked me that question, I would answer that the cost for him to attend games is the time and money he spent on his education to build his career to where it is now.

I don't know Joe I guess the below opinion from Wells article just hit me personally wrong. Maybe because I've seen stuff from the other side where an insider has such an advantage on the person who actually pays money to attend these events and can easily lose sight of this.



There are lots of empty green seats in the building even though the Pacers bring a 15-game home winning streak into Friday's game with Toronto.

About the only green owner Herb Simon wants to see is the kind with Ulysses S. Grant and Benjamin Franklin on it.


It's time to get on the bus.

The Pacers have done their job.

Now it's up to the fans to get on, too.

BillS
02-08-2013, 12:01 PM
What exactly is a "hip-hop theme," or is that just Hoosier code for black people? The lack of attendance has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with miscreants breaking the law several years ago, fighting fans, getting shipped out, and having a sub-par product for many years up until two years ago. If people stopped going to the games because the players were black, not because they were criminals, then I think I severely misunderstand the past. If my memory serves me correctly, the Pacers had excellent attendance with four out of five starters being black back in the 90's and early aughts. When the pacers had several white players on the team (Murphy, Dunleavy, Foster, Hansbrough, etc...) attendance sucked. Again, this is not a race issue as much as OlBlu wanted us to draft Griffin. As a general rule of thumb, don't ever agree with OlBlu. He's as clueless as anyone I've ever seen.

To me, "hip-hop theme" has to do with the soundtrack of the game being more-or-less all hip-hop music. I don't care for hip-hop music. Many people in my age group, who have disposable income now that their kids are out of the house, don't care for it. It is something that really has been reversed just since I've had season tickets - there is a much greater mix of music, I think, than there was even 5 years ago.

But, yes, it is something that does cut along racial lines. While I don't think it is as pervasive as some might think, neither do we do anyone any kind of service by denying it exists. Back in the 90's the culture at the games was still pretty white bread even though the players were not. The habits carried over into the early aughts as things began to get more street, but the team was not likeable enough to overcome the culture difference once bad things hit the fan.

Rural Indiana has come a long way since the time I grew up in the 60s and 70s, but it isn't a multicultural mecca with the rainbow coalition linking arms and singing "Kum Ba Ya", either.

We're dealing with something that has a bunch of reasons. Dismissing one just because someone you don't like brought it up is silly.

cinotimz
02-08-2013, 12:04 PM
I don't know Joe I guess the below opinion from Wells article just hit me personally wrong. Maybe because I've seen stuff from the other side where an insider has such an advantage on the person who actually pays money to attend these events and can easily lose sight of this.



There are lots of empty green seats in the building even though the Pacers bring a 15-game home winning streak into Friday's game with Toronto.

About the only green owner Herb Simon wants to see is the kind with Ulysses S. Grant and Benjamin Franklin on it.


It's time to get on the bus.

The Pacers have done their job.

Now it's up to the fans to get on, too.

It struck a nerve....as often being called out can do....look RWB...youre a bit different than most these sorts of comments are being directed at...youve been a very long and active supporter of the Pacers...but even for those of us that have been maybe this strikes a nerve because maybe we havent been quite as active as we once were in our support....maybe we got caught up in all of the excuse making and got a bit complacent...or maybe we have real issues...for such longtime supporters it really doesnt matter...this calling out only serves as a bit of a nudge to revisit the situation and see if we are happy and comfortable with our support level. If so, no biggie. If not, it serves as a remeinder that things are pretty awesome in Pacerland right now and it doesnt get much better than this...so....Now for the vast majority-those that have not been longtime supporters-then it serves as another chance/invitation to take a look at what a great entertainment product is available to them. Some will take a look...most will just go back to their excuse making and look for other things the Pacers can do while ignoring all the things they refuse to do...Its much easier that way...

Derek2k3
02-08-2013, 12:09 PM
I love how people subscribe to the fallacy that "to go to a game, I must pay for premium parking and expensive food."

I live 90 miles away. It's about 50/50 that I eat in Indy. If I'm really watching my finances, I'll pack some food and eat in the car.

*****.

billbradley
02-08-2013, 12:13 PM
I love how people subscribe to the fallacy that "to go to a game, I must pay for premium parking and expensive food."

I live 90 miles away. It's about 50/50 that I eat in Indy. If I'm really watching my finances, I'll pack some food and eat in the car.

*****.

Right. If you can't go to a Pacer game in downtown Indianapolis, you can't do anything in downtown Indianapolis outside of sitting at a park.

cinotimz
02-08-2013, 12:15 PM
I love how people subscribe to the fallacy that "to go to a game, I must pay for premium parking and expensive food."

I live 90 miles away. It's about 50/50 that I eat in Indy. If I'm really watching my finances, I'll pack some food and eat in the car.

*****.

:)

Like we've said. If someone really wants to do something they generally will find a way to do so. If they dont and someone asks them why they are not they feel a bit guilty, defensive and put on the spot. So instead of being honest and possibly risk disfavor or being embarassed, they simply make excuses.

naptownmenace
02-08-2013, 12:27 PM
I don't understand what this has to do with Mike's opinion. It is his job to share his opinion via the newspaper. The fact he attends games for free is irrelevant. If I was Mike and someone asked me that question, I would answer that the cost for him to attend games is the time and money he spent on his education to build his career to where it is now.

:burn:

Indra
02-08-2013, 12:29 PM
To me, "hip-hop theme" has to do with the soundtrack of the game being more-or-less all hip-hop music. I don't care for hip-hop music. Many people in my age group, who have disposable income now that their kids are out of the house, don't care for it. It is something that really has been reversed just since I've had season tickets - there is a much greater mix of music, I think, than there was even 5 years ago.

But, yes, it is something that does cut along racial lines. While I don't think it is as pervasive as some might think, neither do we do anyone any kind of service by denying it exists. Back in the 90's the culture at the games was still pretty white bread even though the players were not. The habits carried over into the early aughts as things began to get more street, but the team was not likeable enough to overcome the culture difference once bad things hit the fan.

Rural Indiana has come a long way since the time I grew up in the 60s and 70s, but it isn't a multicultural mecca with the rainbow coalition linking arms and singing "Kum Ba Ya", either.

We're dealing with something that has a bunch of reasons. Dismissing one just because someone you don't like brought it up is silly.

I'm not implying that racism doesn't exist in central Indiana. I'm saying that the precipitous drop in attendance doesn't have any correlation to the players' skin color. It actually directly coincides with the brawl and the off-court issues. Hoosiers loved the black players on the team when they were staying out of trouble and winning. Heck, Reggie Miller and Reggie Wayne are practically legends in Indianapolis. It's when they started breaking the law that the fans said enough is enough, and they stopped supporting them.

Was there a bit of a "hip-hop" culture to the NBA during the mid-aughts? Absolutely. Baggy jerseys, long shorts, etc... But attendance was still very good up until, as you put it, the team stopped being "likable." That's the off-court issues I am speaking of. It wasn't that we had black players with baggy shorts, it was that we had players who were shooting up strip clubs and hanging out with murderers. The fans even continued to greatly support the players and the team even after the brawl. It was when it simply became a trend and reflected poorly on the city that people stopped showing up.

The reason the fans aren't coming out now isn't because we have a team with black players and we occasionally play "hip-hop music," it's that the damage to the organizations reputation was so great during that period that many fans simply turned their backs and aren't interested in being "won over" anymore. Those are the fans that will only show up again when it becomes the cool thing to do. "I was there when Paul George scored 50." "I was there when we beat the Heat in the ECF." It's going to take time, but race is such a minuscule aspect of this discussion that it really doesn't warrant the five posts dedicated to it in this thread.

Also, the Pacers marketing department isn't doing anybody any favors. A couple facebook game updates and a few billboards around town aren't going to catch that fan who turned their back. The Pacers have a great product, they've got great ticket prices, and a great experience, but they haven't made it the place to be yet.

Since86
02-08-2013, 12:56 PM
It actually directly coincides with the brawl and the off-court issues.

No it doesn't. The Pacers have always had attendance issues. The year after they went to the finals, they had less than a 90% attendance rate. The Pacers were 14th in attendance the year prior to the brawl, when they won 61 games.

Blaming it on the brawl, or not winning, is too simplistic of an answer. Attendance issues is something most teams are facing, not just the Pacers.

Sollozzo
02-08-2013, 01:08 PM
No it doesn't. The Pacers have always had attendance issues. The year after they went to the finals, they had less than a 90% attendance rate. The Pacers were 14th in attendance the year prior to the brawl, when they won 61 games.

Blaming it on the brawl, or not winning, is too simplistic of an answer. Attendance issues is something most teams are facing, not just the Pacers.


By my count, the Pacers had a 97% attendance rate in 2000-2001, the year after the Finals:

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2001

17,888/18,345 (original FH capacity) = 97.5%. We were coming off the Finals and still had Reggie. Plus the Fieldhouse still had a fresh new feel to it.

We had a 90% rate the year before the brawl (03-04), which is pretty solid.

I think it was a combination of things: The brawl, Reggie retirement, embarrassing Artest trade demand, and off the court issues all took a toll. We kicked out the bad seeds, but replaced them with boring mediocre players who were coached by Jim O'Brien and lost a lot of games. 2004-2010 was just an awful awful awful period for our franchise. Something like that takes a massive toll, and it's not something that is fixed in just a couple of years. The Pacers dug themselves into a massive hole during that 6 year period. Do you climb out of a 6 year hole in just 2 years? It doesn't look like it.

billbradley
02-08-2013, 01:08 PM
No it doesn't. The Pacers have always had attendance issues. The year after they went to the finals, they had less than a 90% attendance rate. The Pacers were 14th in attendance the year prior to the brawl, when they won 61 games.

Blaming it on the brawl, or not winning, is too simplistic of an answer. Attendance issues is something most teams are facing, not just the Pacers.

What site are you using? ESPN doesn't have % for 2001, but we were above 90% and top 10 in attendance % in 2002.

Hicks
02-08-2013, 01:12 PM
By my count, the Pacers had a 97% attendance rate in 2000-2001, the year after the Finals:

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2001

17,888/18,345 (original FH capacity) = 97.5%. We were coming off the Finals and still had Reggie. Plus the Fieldhouse still had a fresh new feel to it.

We had a 90% rate the year before the brawl (03-04), which is pretty solid.

I think it was a combination of things: The brawl, Reggie retirement, embarrassing Artest trade demand, and off the court issues all took a toll. We kicked out the bad seeds, but replaced them with boring mediocre players who were coached by Jim O'Brien and lost a lot of games. 2004-2010 was just an awful awful awful period for our franchise. Something like that takes a massive toll, and it's not something that is fixed in just a couple of years. The Pacers dug themselves into a massive hole during that 6 year period. Do you climb out of a 6 year hole in just 2 years? It doesn't look like it.

Not to mention 2004-2010 was a HUGE time of popularity for the Colts AND we had the economy issues start in that stretch, too.

All of that stuff caused so much damage I'm not sure all of it will ever repair itself. At least not any time soon.

Sollozzo
02-08-2013, 01:14 PM
I should add that the Pacers brutal 2004-2010 stretch directly coincided with the glory years of the Colts in which we went to two Super Bowls, won a ton of games, and had one of the greatest players in NFL history. Unfortunately for the Pacers, they were easily replaced in the hearts of locals by the exciting Colts, who happened to play in the most popular league in the country. The Colts left the Pacers in the dust in the hearts and minds of locals and I think it will stay that way for a loooooooong time.

Sollozzo
02-08-2013, 01:14 PM
Not to mention 2004-2010 was a HUGE time of popularity for the Colts AND we had the economy issues start in that stretch, too.

All of that stuff caused so much damage I'm not sure all of it will ever repair itself. At least not any time soon.


Ha, ironic that you mention the Colts at the exact same time I was typing my above post.

Since86
02-08-2013, 01:23 PM
I was going off of memory, I've listed the figures a couple different times. My mistake.

Here's a list of each season, since 1967.
http://www.apbr.org/attendance.html

The Pacers had made the playoffs from 1990-2006 every season, but one 96-97. In 93-94, after 4 straight playoff appearances, the Pacers were getting a measely 13,264 people there (80%). The history of Pacers attendance, just isn't all that strong.

Tom White
02-08-2013, 01:37 PM
What exactly is a "hip-hop theme," or is that just Hoosier code for black people?

Come on now, you know what he means. It is the THUMP-THUMP-THUMP music. Just listening over my sound system hooked to my TV gives me the impression that it is pretty loud. If you are not a fan of that music, and if it is being played at the volume I perceive it to be, that would be a reason to not go. Read that as at home you can hit the mute button. Again, personally, it would make the experience much less enjoyable. Don't take that as a black/white thing either, because I also can't stomach country music.

Unclebuck
02-08-2013, 01:40 PM
I am thinking back through Pacers history, starting let's say in 1991 when the team became a .500 team for 3 straight seasons, and then thinking ahead to let's say 1995. During that time the Pacers went from a .500 team to a championship contender. The attendance also increased by a lot.

My focus is: who, what type of people and fans started going to games in 1995 that didn't go in 1991? Was it the die-hards? No (I'm sure there were a few, so don't tell me you started going then, I am sure there are a good number of die-hards) But I would say 75% of the new people who started going in 1995 that weren't going in 1991 were casual fans and I would even say a wealthier, white collar type fan who could afford the rapidly rising ticket prices. Those people who wanted to be out and about at the cool event. Those who wanted a night lout, but those that didn't live and die with the team.

The crowds became more corporate throughout the 90's, more business men entertaining clients, more pretty people who wanted to be seen on the scene of what was happening now.

Those are the people who came in the 90's culminating in 2000 with the new fieldhouse and an NBA Finals team. And those were the first people to leave after 2001.

So the question for the pacers front office is how do we get those type fans back. Or will they slowly come back now that the team is good.

That is my theory and although there are holes in the theory and arguments against, I think it is a large factor in what has happened. It happens every where. Die-hards are there, the team gets really good, ticket prices sky-rocket, die-hards either move up or old and the corporate crowd moves in.

BillS
02-08-2013, 01:43 PM
I'm not implying that racism doesn't exist in central Indiana. I'm saying that the precipitous drop in attendance doesn't have any correlation to the players' skin color. It actually directly coincides with the brawl and the off-court issues. Hoosiers loved the black players on the team when they were staying out of trouble and winning. Heck, Reggie Miller and Reggie Wayne are practically legends in Indianapolis. It's when they started breaking the law that the fans said enough is enough, and they stopped supporting them.

Was there a bit of a "hip-hop" culture to the NBA during the mid-aughts? Absolutely. Baggy jerseys, long shorts, etc... But attendance was still very good up until, as you put it, the team stopped being "likable." That's the off-court issues I am speaking of. It wasn't that we had black players with baggy shorts, it was that we had players who were shooting up strip clubs and hanging out with murderers. The fans even continued to greatly support the players and the team even after the brawl. It was when it simply became a trend and reflected poorly on the city that people stopped showing up.

The reason the fans aren't coming out now isn't because we have a team with black players and we occasionally play "hip-hop music," it's that the damage to the organizations reputation was so great during that period that many fans simply turned their backs and aren't interested in being "won over" anymore. Those are the fans that will only show up again when it becomes the cool thing to do. "I was there when Paul George scored 50." "I was there when we beat the Heat in the ECF." It's going to take time, but race is such a minuscule aspect of this discussion that it really doesn't warrant the five posts dedicated to it in this thread.

Also, the Pacers marketing department isn't doing anybody any favors. A couple facebook game updates and a few billboards around town aren't going to catch that fan who turned their back. The Pacers have a great product, they've got great ticket prices, and a great experience, but they haven't made it the place to be yet.

Here's the thing about racism, though. It is nearly always something someone is taught while they are raised, and it becomes embedded into their own self-image. It can be overcome but only by realizing the stereotypes that form a racist mindset are false (an intellectual process), and any reinforcement of those stereotypes can slam the mindset back into place (an emotional process). Players like the Reggies and the majority of the ABA and NBA teams may help to work against the stereotype, but the perception of hip-hop music as violent and disrespectful along with the actuality of black players being violent off the court shut those minds once more. As in so many things, it wasn't that they weren't willing to ride the bus while things were going good, it was when things went bad that the ignorance and stereotypes show through - after all, if a few of the players live down to those stereotypes, who is to say all of them don't? Once they are off, it takes a LOT of work to get them back on.

Again, I am not saying this is a majority or even a large minority of people in Indiana, but I can assure you that, having grown up in small-town white Indiana, in a fumbling and well-intended way I had major racial issues just due to ignorance and unfamiliarity. Living in Atlanta for 25 years was a major eye-opener because I actually lived next to and worked with a racially-mixed middle class in a place where seeing a non-white on the streets wasn't a newsworthy event. It completely changed my outlook on what constitutes racism and that there's more than just "evil people" who can build it into a harmful culture.

That said, I agree that marketing leaves something to be desired. I don't know what the constraints are, because we know that the PS&E folks who show up here are working their butts off, but something creative and exciting needs to be done - not just on the floor, but in the minds of the potential fans.

billbradley
02-08-2013, 01:47 PM
I was going off of memory, I've listed the figures a couple different times. My mistake.

Here's a list of each season, since 1967.
http://www.apbr.org/attendance.html

The Pacers had made the playoffs from 1990-2006 every season, but one 96-97. In 93-94, after 4 straight playoff appearances, the Pacers were getting a measely 13,264 people there (80%). The history of Pacers attendance, just isn't all that strong.

I say 80% is good for 93-94. That was twenty years ago, Circle Center was a hole and so was downtown.

Unclebuck
02-08-2013, 01:50 PM
I say 80% is good for 93-94. That was twenty years ago, Circle Center was a hole and so was downtown.

Plus that year started 17-24 and they just traded one of their most popular players in Detlef. No one, not even Larry Brown thought the team was going to emerge into a contender - a lot of the media talk was brown was going to take a year to change the culture and major trades were needed.

Since86
02-08-2013, 01:53 PM
I know the expectations are different for everyone, but what is a reasonable attendance that the Pacers should be averaging each night right now?

ErikD.
02-08-2013, 01:54 PM
Instead of $1.99..the lowest ticket on stubhub, for tonights game, costs $11.99. And there are only 137 left. I don't do stubhub all of the time, but doesnt that seem unusual? Is that a sign that there will be more attending tonight than usual?