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View Full Version : Oh man, we are getting our media identity: "The New Bad Boys" [ESPN]



docpaul
02-07-2013, 03:35 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/54420/truehoop-tv-pacers-the-new-bad-boys

I've always thought that the natural direction of the media would be: the Pacers are the new Pistons. This is interesting, because it will begin to lead people into wondering whether that recipe can win a title as they did.

Foul on Smits
02-07-2013, 03:41 PM
love it. I love to be the new Pistons. I have no problem with that. Bring it!

Hicks
02-07-2013, 03:42 PM
The headline asks if we're the new Bad Boys. The answer is No.

BPump33
02-07-2013, 03:44 PM
People think we play dirty? Interesting.

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 03:46 PM
Oh s*** great, now Seth has more ammo to keep comparing this team to the Bad Boys Pistons :banghead:

Really?
02-07-2013, 03:51 PM
This is ridiculous, not dirty, and we don't even have anyone to lay the wood, don't really see many hard screens, you would have to think there is a better title out there for this group...

CableKC
02-07-2013, 03:52 PM
The headline asks if we're the new Bad Boys. The answer is No.
Yeah, I don't want the Pacers to be associated with that Will Smith / Martin Lawrence movie as well.

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 03:56 PM
The Bad Boys only had Rodman, Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars but other than that yeah we are similar....

Since86
02-07-2013, 03:58 PM
People think we play dirty? Interesting.

The pussification of the NBA continues, when hard play is now considered dirty.

I would like anyone who actually believes they "skirt" around being dirty to come up with a list of examples. I honestly cannot recall anything even semi "dirty." I don't equate hard fouls with dirty, not even close.

BillS
02-07-2013, 03:58 PM
Umm ... Not.

Aw Heck
02-07-2013, 04:12 PM
The Pacers being labeled "The New Bad Boys" was more apt back when they were calling the Pacers that in '02-'03. Then, they were actually being coached by a Bad Boy and Ron-Ron was flagrant fouling so much that he was serving suspensions during the season for being over the flagrant foul limit.

Now? It doesn't really fit. Sure, the defense is good, but there are several good defensive teams in the league. Beyond that, the "Bad Boy" label doesn't fit this team at all.

ColeTheMole
02-07-2013, 04:15 PM
They would be the bad boys if they all had the mind of Lance. But then it at that point it would just look like an And1 mixtape.

Really?
02-07-2013, 04:15 PM
The Bad Boys only had Rodman, Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars but other than that yeah we are similar....

You are tripping, Lambeer was one of the big keys

vnzla81
02-07-2013, 04:15 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dm6xexu_wJY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Foul on Smits
02-07-2013, 04:17 PM
I dont know how old you all are, but i'm 30 and i remember watching and following the Pistons that year, They werent a mean team. They were physical and they had a ton of swag, but they werent evil. They didnt go out and try to hurt everyone. I dont know how that perception came about, but they were good. Just damn good. And yes, they remind me of this years Pacers team. Gritty and got after it at the point that it annoyed every single team. I think Indy is on that pace for sure.

LetsTalkPacers84
02-07-2013, 04:36 PM
This is ridiculous, not dirty, and we don't even have anyone to lay the wood, don't really see many hard screens, you would have to think there is a better title out there for this group...

Like...Smash Mouth? :D

AesopRockOn
02-07-2013, 04:38 PM
Very few players, let alone teams, can fall into that category currently. If you're talking about dirty, might as well start with Kevin "Honey Nut" Garnett.

Speed
02-07-2013, 04:43 PM
Playing hard and together with a physical brand of basketball isn't bad boys.... its basketball as it should be played. I watch alot of NBA and its really noticeable how determined defensively this group is. They are mentally tough moreso than physically. They have a deep desire to not let the other team score and get pissed when they do. Really awesome!!

SouthernIndianaFan
02-07-2013, 04:47 PM
I remember Kevin Love saying after a loss that the Pacers all must take these "tough guy pills". I just wish we could keep drafting these kind of guys. No surrender, no defeat. Get ahead and stomp in the throat mentality. LOVE IT.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 05:10 PM
Usually I'm not the kind to say I told to so, but..... :laugh:

By the way, the bad boys weren't necessarily dirty, ether, aside from laimbeer and mahorn, and we lost mahorn after one year.

This is the identity that you're going to get, wether you want it or not. You play a defense first philosophy, in a small market, without a media superstar. It goes against conventional logic, so this is the conclusion that the masses will jump to.

Forgive the lameness of this, but if you're going to get a seat at the table, this is pretty much what you're going to have to get used to. You can either swim against the current, or put on the black hat and use it to your advantage.

The bad boys wen from also fans to a mini dynasty when isiah said "**** this, if you want us to be the bad guys, we'll show you bad guys." The pistons actually ordered custom made Detroit Raider merchandise, sponsored by Al Davis. Zeke was the first guy to discover a dirty little secret about the NBA. The bad guys can win.

I believe Reggie miller understood this as well, but his teams never really took that step with him to the dark side.

I guess my point is, the bad boys philosophy was never really about cheating or hurting people. They did very little of both, despite their reputation. It's about embracing being the party crashers, throwing the middle finger to the league, and being loved more locally by how much every other other place in the league resents you for not being typical.

Rogco
02-07-2013, 05:19 PM
Yeah, I don't want the Pacers to be associated with that Will Smith / Martin Lawrence movie as well.

Why not? It's a great movie!!

SMosley21
02-07-2013, 05:25 PM
Usually I'm not the kind to say I told to so, but..... :laugh:

By the way, the bad boys weren't necessarily dirty, ether, aside from laimbeer and mahorn, and we lost mahorn after one year.

This is the identity that you're going to get, wether you want it or not. You play a defense first philosophy, in a small market, without a media superstar. It goes against conventional logic, so this is the conclusion that the masses will jump to.

Forgive the lameness of this, but if you're going to get a seat at the table, this is pretty much what you're going to have to get used to.

Exactly.

There's a line in Nas' "Hate Me Now" that goes...

"People fear what they don't understand, hate what they can't conquer. I guess that's just the fury of man."

Pundits are going to "hate" on the Pacers because they can't explain why we're so good without having a SUPERSTAR. Our winning ways go against the grain in the current NBA. Let them hate!

PaceBalls
02-07-2013, 05:28 PM
^^ Love that 80s reggae, was jammin this in my head when I read the title.

Yea, I don't see the bad boy comparisons at all. I hope that doesn't stick.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 05:39 PM
^^ Love that 80s reggae, was jammin this in my head when I read the title.

Yea, I don't see the bad boy comparisons at all. I hope that doesn't stick.

Roster wise? Of course not.

As a philosophy? The pacers are trying to emulate what the pistons did. A least that's how Bird built this team.

I know this way of dong things. I grew up with it. I've spent most of my life with a front row seat for it. This team is unmistakably trending down that path. This is actually bird's second attempt, but I think he realized he needed more stable players to sustain it.

mattie
02-07-2013, 05:42 PM
Again, it is still getting me rubbing me wrong how all these pundits are seeing this- I do like the idea that Indiana is playing tough, because without a doubt they are. Talk about soft all you want but Roy throws as hard as screens as anybody in the league. So does West. Roy will go up agaisnt anyone and block the shot. Ask LBJ. And when Danny gets back that's one more hard nosed player who uses physicality as an asset. George Hill of course is probably the strongest PG in the league. The toughness of this team is certainly there.

But they keep saying they aren't talented. The pundit also pointed out the very TRUE statement that you pretty much need a top 5 offense to truly compete. I completely agree with that. Yet he somehow forgot to add the fact that this team is adding a 18ppg scorer by playoff start??? How is this not incredibly important?

Put it this way, Last year's number NINE offense just changed their spotup shooting guard for a 18ppg scorer. That doesn't maybe clue everyone in that this offense has the potential to be extremely potent during the playoffs? This is what NO pundit has mentioned. I agree all day long that if the Pacers don't score, they won't win. Zach Lowe said as much earlier. The problem is, everyone keeps acting like this isn't a possibility.

Or one more way to look at Indiana's offense by the start of the playoffs compared to last years Indiana team:

The PG position has improved. The shooting guard position has made a MASSIVE improvement. The SF is essentially the same. The PF has made a big improvement. The Center has regressed a LOT. The 6th man is a MASSIVE improvement. No one thinks this offense can become a top five offense? I DO.

Paul George already has all the skills and ability to be a 25ppg highly efficient scorer. He's not there yet. He's a 20ppg scorer. (yes, over the last 1/2). He's slowly learning, and it takes a season of learning all the different ways you can score. Experience is all it is. Which means come playoff time, Paul George simply won't be the same player he is RIGHT now. Paul George, tho the numbers won't necessarily support it yet without a fullseason behind him, by playoff time maybe be one of the 10 best players in the league. Easy. Easy.

George Hill is roughly the 10th best point in the league. Paul George is rapidly asserting himself as one of the best in the game. (again for all these guys saying we aren't quite talented enough). Danny Granger is still one of the best SF's in the league, healthy he's one of the 30 best in the league. David West is one of the 30 best in the league EASY. An underrated forward who is completely different from the guy he was last year. Roy Hibbert is a nightmare on offense, but he's one of the five best defensive centers in the league, in a time when defensive powerhouse centers abound.

Then their is Lance on the bench. Tyler, Ian. This team is extremely talented.

Or against the most talentd team in the NBA, a comparison:

Westbrook > Hill
Martin < PG
Durant > Granger (our worst matchup? We still have an allstar!!)
Ibaka > West (Yes, West would destroy Ibaka, who's a great team defender, but gets abused by PF's who know how to score)
Perkins < Roy

Lance > OKC's bench.

I disagree, but a smart NBA analyst could make the argument that Indiana is equal or more talented than OKC. It's not true, but it isn't crazy either. And OKC is the most talented team in the NBA.

Indiana does NOT lack talent. I don't buy that at all.

Can anyone name a playoff team in the NBA that will start four players on offense that can all beat you?? Anyone??

cinotimz
02-07-2013, 05:44 PM
Please dont associate our/my beloved team with anything having to do with Detroit...especially the Pistons. There are far more direct opposites associated between the two than similarities....starting with class....from both the team and their fans. So please.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 05:45 PM
The pussification of the NBA continues, when hard play is now considered dirty.

I would like anyone who actually believes they "skirt" around being dirty to come up with a list of examples. I honestly cannot recall anything even semi "dirty." I don't equate hard fouls with dirty, not even close.

Welcome to the NBA. Magic, Michael and Larry will show you the ropes. But remember, don't play too hard. It's considered dirty play. You're not supposed to compete with them, you're supposed to look good losing like every one else. Casual fans don't like seeing their favorite players shoot 7-22.

Sound familiar?


It's ALWAYS been like this!

I'm going to conclude this by saying what I said yesterday, since apparently some people didn't read it:


From an outsider's perspective, let me get you prepared for the next 5-6 years:

1. Fans of big markets are not going to like you.
2. Fans of the teams you eliminate are not going to like you.
3. Fans of teams that value offense over defense are going to HATE you.
4. Unless Paul George about doubles his scoring output to Kobe/TMac/Durant levels, he's never going to be a national media darling. Missed shots aren't sexy....

You're not going to accept this, but the reality is this: The Pacers play in Indiana. The Pacers play a decided physical defense-first philosophy. Neither of those things will endear them nationally. Heck, it's not exactly endearing them locally either. The Pacers haven't been a major draw in Indianapolis since the Bird/Reggie days of free flowing offense and three point shooters at every position.

I get that you're riding the Pacers high right now, and you can't see how the Pacers won't become the NBA's next great dynasty and loved by all...but that's just not going to happen. The hierarchy doesn't like being disturbed. You're going to knock much bigger names than Paul George out of the playoffs, and casual fans will get annoyed by it (unless it's Miami).

God forbid you keep Carmelo or Rose out of the finals....the national media will be borderline-offended in the "why am I stuck in Indianapolis covering the NBA finals when I could be spending a week in New York/Chicago" sense.

MyFavMartin
02-07-2013, 05:54 PM
So we play defense and make our fouls count for something?

It's basketball, right?

PacersHomer
02-07-2013, 05:57 PM
If how we play now gets us labeled as the new Bad Boys, then I'm all for it.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 05:57 PM
So we play defense and make our fouls count for something?

It's basketball, right?

Welcome to the NBA.

God is it ever amusing watching it happen to someone else....

docpaul
02-07-2013, 06:03 PM
Welcome to the NBA. Magic, Michael and Larry will show you the ropes. But remember, don't play too hard. It's considered dirty play. You're not supposed to compete with them, you're supposed to look good losing like every one else. Casual fans don't like seeing their favorite players shoot 7-22.

Sound familiar?

I'm going to conclude this by saying what said yesterday, since apparently some people didn't read it:

I agree pretty much wholesale with your quote and your sentiment, but I do think there's an opportunity to go one of two ways: lovable underdog that wins with hard work and perseverance, or annoying bast4rds that bully their way to elite status.

I think that'll all depend on how the players present themselves off the court. :) I think we have a real shot at the former.

gummy
02-07-2013, 06:07 PM
We always get cast as some version or another of the small market/scrappy/physical/defensive minded/blue collar team, don't we? At least when we're any good. And the team often embraces those roles.

I'm not sure "Bad Boys" is all that excellent for our local marketing, let alone accurate. Media (especially ESPN) loves to recycle tropes, it's easy and there's a built-in acceptance of it based on familiarity. Much harder to do original analysis and have to make a case without relying on this kind of shorthand.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 06:09 PM
I agree pretty much wholesale with your quote and your sentiment, but I do think there's an opportunity to go one of two ways: lovable underdog that wins with hard work and perseverance, or annoying bast4rds that bully their way to elite status.

I think that'll all depend on how the players present themselves off the court. :) I think we have a real shot at the former.

Name me the last lovable underdog that's won an nba championship. You don't win titles that way.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 06:10 PM
We always get cast as some version or another of the small market/scrappy/physical/defensive minded/blue collar team, don't we? At least when we're any good. And the team often embraces those roles.

I'm not sure "Bad Boys" is all that excellent for our local marketing, let alone accurate. Media (especially ESPN) loves to recycle tropes, it's easy and there's a built-in acceptance of it based on familiarity. Much harder to do original analysis and have to make a case without relying on this kind of shorthand.

So change the terminology. It's not rocket science.

cinotimz
02-07-2013, 06:14 PM
Name me the last lovable underdog that's won an nba championship. You don't win titles that way.

The Mavericks.

gummy
02-07-2013, 06:14 PM
So change the terminology. It's not rocket science.

Yep. Blue Collar, Gold Swagger, anyone?

Same sort of thing, different polish. Doesn't lend itself to easy use like "Bad Boys," but the Pacers are trying...

Kstat
02-07-2013, 06:15 PM
Yep. Blue Collar, Gold Swagger, anyone?

Same sort of thing, different polish. Doesn't lend itself to easy use like "Bad Boys," but the Pacers are trying...

"Smash mouth"...

I mean, it's like they planned this, or something....

docpaul
02-07-2013, 06:24 PM
Name me the last lovable underdog that's won an nba championship. You don't win titles that way.

Well, let's have that conversation once they've won. :) I dont think a caricature has anything to do with the outcome. However, in the meantime, they'll be cast with some sort of caricature, and I think their personality off the court has he potential to modify the obvious one with the old Detroit team

BillS
02-07-2013, 06:37 PM
Name me the last lovable underdog that's won an nba championship. You don't win titles that way.

Detroit was definitely considered an underdog the last time they won. "Loveable" would depend on how their fans viewed them more than how others viewed them. I didn't think of them as "loveable" as such, but (in spite of myself) I loved the way they played.

gummy
02-07-2013, 06:44 PM
"Smash mouth"...

I mean, it's like they planned this, or something....

Right. How could I forget Smash Mouth!?

Frank doesn't seem to say it as much anymore, but I always liked it.

imawhat
02-07-2013, 06:44 PM
David Thorpe, facepalm. I've never heard the Pacers referred to as dirty by non-Pacers fans. I've heard tough and fake tough from opposing players, but never dirty. What is he talking about?

Kstat
02-07-2013, 06:59 PM
Well, let's have that conversation once they've won. :) I dont think a caricature has anything to do with the outcome. However, in the meantime, they'll be cast with some sort of caricature, and I think their personality off the court has he potential to modify the obvious one with the old Detroit team

It's a game played, officiated and managed by humans.

Perception is a very, very powerful thing in basketball. Reggie Miller lived by that on a daily basis.

Heisenberg
02-07-2013, 07:00 PM
David Thorpe, facepalm. I've never heard the Pacers referred to as dirty by non-Pacers fans. I've heard tough and fake tough from opposing players, but never dirty. What is he talking about?
I have, a lot.

PGisthefuture
02-07-2013, 07:03 PM
I kind of like the comparison. I wasn't around to see the Pistons in that era, but I have heard about them. The only thing I don't get is that we are a dirty team. I have never seen us being dirty at all. We might rub some other teams the wrong way, but I just don't get the being dirty part.

AesopRockOn
02-07-2013, 07:17 PM
I have, a lot.

One of the comments on that Truehoop post is exclaiming that the Pacers get away with so many fouls.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 07:19 PM
One of the comments on that Truehoop post is exclaiming that the Pacers get away with so many fouls.

Oh yeah, that was always my favorite. Right up there with, "I want to see basketball, not wrestling."

Get used to that one.

ChicagoJ
02-07-2013, 07:30 PM
I have, a lot.

About any player not named Tyler?

I hear about Tyler being dirty up here, and I just remind them that Tyler and Noah are the same player with different hair.

They get all pissed off, think about it, and then admit that I'm basically right. (Because I am.) They both play hard/ intense, and don't back down, but neither of them are really "dirty".


I don't see the Bad Boy connections. But I don't look fondly at that ****ing Detroit team that was *******izing basketball. I don't have much respect or use for Daly. I think they had four dirty players, although Isiah got more dirty as he lost footspeed after the title run had ended. By 1990, I still thought he was more "tough guy" than dirty punk, but he devolved. I won't even mention the name of the other three ****heads. They were just dirty punks.

I did respect Dumars. He's a class act. I'm not trying to be unreasonably negative about that blemish against decent basketball.

I think as Pacers fans its probably our job to fight back against this slimy Bad Boy assocation. That just feels so dirty. Smashmouth, and Blue Collar Gold Swagger seem much better to me. Although I don't really think we're playing much Smashmouth this year. (But hey, as a Jerome Bettis fan, I hold a term like Smashmouth in much higher regard than something sleazy like Bad Boys.)

Kstat
02-07-2013, 07:37 PM
About any player not named Tyler?

I hear about Tyler being dirty up here, and I just remind them that Tyler and Noah are the same player with different hair.

They get all pissed off, think about it, and then admit that I'm basically right. (Because I am.) They both play hard/ intense, and don't back down, but neither of them are really "dirty".


I don't see the Bad Boy connections. But I don't look fondly at that ****ing Detroit team that was *******izing basketball. I don't have much respect or use for Daly. I think they had four dirty players, although Isiah got more dirty as he lost footspeed after the title run had ended. By 1990, I still thought he was more "tough guy" than dirty punk, but he devolved. I won't even mention the name of the other three ****heads. They were just dirty punks.

I did respect Dumars. He's a class act. I'm not trying to be unreasonably negative about that blemish against decent basketball.

I think as Pacers fans its probably our job to fight back against this slimy Bad Boy assocation. That just feels so dirty. Smashmouth, and Blue Collar Gold Swagger seem much better to me. Although I don't really think we're playing much Smashmouth this year. (But hey, as a Jerome Bettis fan, I hold a term like Smashmouth in much higher regard than something sleazy like Bad Boys.)
You're going to have to deal with it, Jay.

It's always dirty basketball when it's the other guy doing it.

The most infamous moment was probably when we walked off the court in 1991 instead of congratulating the bulls people still talk about it was the bastion of everything wrong with sportsmanship. Which is hilarious because Larry Bird led the Celtics off the court when we ended their reign in 1988. But since they were the media darling and we were the black hats, that's all anybody will remember.

Anybody remember LeBron James storming off against Orlando in 2009? That was just LeBron "showing his competitive spirit," though. It couldn't be bad sportsmanship, because it was loveable LeBron, right? LeBron never, ever does anything wrong!

Danny Granger probably has a dirtier reputation around the NBA than Dwyane Wade, merely because he had the audacity to get confrontational with LeBron.

Perception is everything.

BlueNGold
02-07-2013, 07:51 PM
Who is physical on our team? Maybe West? I completely disagree we are like the Pistons, particularly the bad boys. Rodman, Laimbeer and Mahorn were physical and dirty players. We don't have any dirty players and we are not that physical. Who is scared of Hibbert? Is Paul George physical? George Hill? David West is somewhat physical...but it's not close and he's not a dirty player like Laimbeer and Mahorn especially.

This team is more like the Spurs IMO. Also, this small town has Paul George. Don't try to tell me he's not going to be one of the best players in the NBA....

cgg
02-07-2013, 07:52 PM
Can't compete without a top 5 offense?
2012 8th
2011 8th
2010 11th
2009 3rd
2008 10th
2007 5th
2006 7th
2005 8th
2004 18th
2003 7th

cgg
02-07-2013, 07:56 PM
How about defense?
2012 4th
2011 8th
2010 4th
2009 6th
2008 1st
2007 2nd
2006 9th
2005 1st
2004 2nd
2003 3rd

2 of the last 10 NBA champions had top 5 offenses.

7 of the last 10 NBA champs had top 5 defenses.

owl
02-07-2013, 08:06 PM
Roster wise? Of course not.

As a philosophy? The pacers are trying to emulate what the pistons did. A least that's how Bird built this team.

I know this way of dong things. I grew up with it. I've spent most of my life with a front row seat for it. This team is unmistakably trending down that path. This is actually bird's second attempt, but I think he realized he needed more stable players to sustain it.

That is a very astute observation. Maybe someone with a better memory than mine can figure out how much of the Artest era was Bird inspired.

ChicagoJ
02-07-2013, 08:08 PM
You're going to have to deal with it, Jay.

It's always dirty basketball when it's the other guy doing it.

The most infamous moment was probably when we walked off the court in 1991 instead of congratulating the bulls people still talk about it was the bastion of everything wrong with sportsmanship. Which is hilarious because Larry Bird led the Celtics off the court when we ended their reign in 1988. But since they were the media darling and we were the black hats, that's all anybody will remember.

Anybody remember LeBron James storming off against Orlando in 2009? That was just LeBron "showing his competitive spirit," though. It couldn't be bad sportsmanship, because it was loveable LeBron, right? LeBron never, ever does anything wrong!

Danny Granger probably has a dirtier reputation around the NBA than Dwyane Wade, merely because he had the audacity to get confrontational with LeBron.

Perception is everything.


None of those things have anything to do with the Pacers. I don't mind if the national/ big market media whines and complains about the Pacers. I hope we give it to them and **** them off. I don't care for either their adoration or criticism. Just don't associate this team with any of that other baggage of somebody else's team. This team has and deserves its own identity. They aren't the "next anything". They're the 2013 Pacers. A group of mentally tough, defensively-committed basketball players focused on a team game with a really solid pick-and-roll scheme to help them finish off close games.

ChicagoJ
02-07-2013, 08:15 PM
That is a very astute observation. Maybe someone with a better memory than mine can figure out how much of the Artest era was Bird inspired.


None. Most of those players came in under Walsh/ Isiah.

If there's a connection, its Isiah.

Not Bird.

Carlisle's first season was basically winning a bunch of regular season games with Isiah's roster.

There's a version of the rumors, you don't have to believe it and certainly it played out differently on the public stage, that Bird was trying to get rid of Artest from the moment he arrived. Remember the Brent Barry rumors were during their first training camp together.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 08:16 PM
None of those things have anything to do with the Pacers. I don't mind if the national/ big market media whines and complains about the Pacers. I hope we give it to them and **** them off. I don't care for either their adoration or criticism. Just don't associate this team with any of that other baggage of somebody else's team. This team has and deserves its own identity. They aren't the "next anything". They're the 2013 Pacers. A group of mentally tough, defensively-committed basketball players focused on a team game with a really solid pick-and-roll scheme to help them finish off close games.
That's fine, and you don't have to.

Obviously since the bad boys thing leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth, the terminology has been changed.

Since this is a thread about media perception, I was simply explaining why the perception is what it is, and will continue to be.

Are the OKC Thunder treading on the identity of Jordan's Bulls because they're built the same way? Are the Miami Heat treading on the identity of the Celtics?

This is all in your head. Nobody is going to detract from the Pacers like that. Nobody is saying the Pacers have to become the Pistons or can't have their own identity, just because they're using a similar formula. They're simply going to treat you like the pistons have been treated for the last several decades,

tmhall11
02-07-2013, 08:16 PM
I feel like this guy doesn't have much to compare the team to... instead he just reaches for the next closest thing....

What he is confused with is that we don't have a superstar and we are still winning games. He doesn't know what to do with that, many people have no clue what real basketball looks like because of the superstars and streetball iso. I mean if you don't have a Lebron/Wade on your team and you are in the top percentile of the league you must be like the bad boys right?

Kstat
02-07-2013, 08:18 PM
None. Most of those players came in under Walsh/ Isiah.

If there's a connection, its Isiah.

Not Bird.

Carlisle's first season was basically winning a bunch of regular season games with Isiah's roster.

There's a version of the rumors, you don't have to believe it and certainly it played out differently on the public stage, that Bird was trying to get rid of Artest from the moment he arrived. Remember the Brent Barry rumors were during their first training camp together.

Bird was in Artest's corner until Artest forced his hand. I don't think anybody here besides you would dispute that.

I won't dispute that Zeke started the construction, but Bird continued it.

Keep in mind Bird's infamous "milk drinkers" comment.

Kstat
02-07-2013, 08:19 PM
What he is confused with is that we don't have a superstar and we are still winning games. He doesn't know what to do with that, many people have no clue what real basketball looks like because of the superstars and streetball iso. I mean if you don't have a Lebron/Wade on your team and you are in the top percentile of the league you must be like the bad boys right?

....which is exactly what I said would happen before he ever wrote the article. This wasn't hard to predict.

The Pacers are winning games without an identifiable media superstar, so they must be doing something "wrong."

GrangerRanger
02-07-2013, 08:24 PM
KStat's post have just gained me an extremely large amount of respect for Piston fans. They all can't be bad, eh?

Kstat
02-07-2013, 08:25 PM
This team is more like the Spurs IMO. Also, this small town has Paul George. Don't try to tell me he's not going to be one of the best players in the NBA....

Paul George might indeed be one of the NBA's best players eventually, but that will be because of his impact on the defensive end. He's more of a Joe Dumars type (no I am not directly comparing them as players) He scored 15-20 points a night and keeps the other team's best scorer down. It's much easier for fans to accept and digest a team winning games when they're led by a dominant big guy (Spurs), or a guy scoring 30 points a game. (Thunder). That's what NBA fans and the NBA media are comfortable with.

Also FYI, David West has had the dirty player label since his episode with Dirk in the playoffs 5-6 years ago.

avoidingtheclowns
02-07-2013, 08:33 PM
Danny Granger probably has a dirtier reputation around the NBA than Dwyane Wade, merely because he had the audacity to...

...unjustifiably mock Steve Novak (http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2012/04/indiana-pacers-the-unjustified-actions-of-danny-granger/).

immortality
02-07-2013, 09:21 PM
I don't understand why you guys are arguing, it's like your arguing for the sake of arguing. It's just a nickname, who cares, as long as Pacers get some attention in the media, a nice change to read something about them, instead of the usual Lakers/Heat stories.

PR07
02-07-2013, 09:24 PM
I think we're tough and physical, but I don't think that makes us anywhere close to the Bad Boys.

shags
02-07-2013, 09:30 PM
2 championships, 3 Eastern Conference championships, and 5 straight years in the Eastern Conference Finals. Yeah, I can totally see why the Pacers wouldn't want to be compared to that type of success. According to one poster in particular, that's not a sustained level of success. Geez.

PacersPride
02-07-2013, 09:34 PM
I prefer to not be associated with the Detroit Pistons in any way except dominating them annually in the Central Division. This team is not the bad boys. We are our own idenity.

I do like how numerous commenttators has stated better "bring your lunchpale vs these boys"

boys i gotta a feeling if Granger is healthy he will have a solid season. he can play 4th option at times on this team some nights. The current Pacers team resembles nothing to when Jim O'Brien was coaching here. In fact, if anything its become similar to the team Carlise coached here the season of the brawl.

Tinsley, Miller, Artest, JO, Foster: Jackson, Fred Jones, Anthony Johnson, David Harrison.. anyone else remember the remaining players.

Right now if i had to choose between starrting 5's.

Hill, George, Granger, West, Hibbert:

when playing well tinsley was real good. Hill is much more consistent and better character.

Paul George is a stud, but hard to not choose REGGIE

Granger or Artest. the sane artest all day but Granger has been steady and dedicateed to this Franchise. Granger by a landslide.

West easily over JO. West is the best PF to ever play for this Franchise. both Dale and DWest are BAMF's.

Hibbert or Foster. tough call. im one who believe Fosters jersey maybe not worthy of a Banner definitely is deserved of significant recognition. Hibbert can definitely be the MAN. Hibbert can eclipse Smits as the best center for this Franchise.

that 03-04 team was a LEGIT TITLE Contender. its truly Amazing the Pacers have rebounded from oblivion.

Bird had soo many critics at one time on here and several other sites esp indysstar. I said it elsewhere i will say it again.

Bird could easily have saved this state the franchise.

15th parallel
02-07-2013, 09:48 PM
How about "BAMFS of the NBA"? (borrowed the term from Seth)

On the serious side, in terms of perception, Kstat is right. But it doesn't mean I like it simply because it doesn't help the image of the Pacers that are trying so hard to bring back the fans again. The team doesn't commit as many flagrant fouls as the other teams. Heck, this squad is usually the receiving end of those kinds of fouls. And they don't do much cheap shots if there is any. And while the "Bad Boys" of the Pistons were really great players, there is just this baggage associated with them. So maybe while ESPN is at it, maybe they can do a better job in promoting a better image of the Pacers. You know, something like how the media did with Memphis right now.

shags
02-07-2013, 09:58 PM
How about "BAMFS of the NBA"? (borrowed the term from Seth)

On the serious side, in terms of perception, Kstat is right. But it doesn't mean I like it simply because it doesn't help the image of the Pacers that are trying so hard to bring back the fans again. The team doesn't commit as many flagrant fouls as the other teams. Heck, this squad is usually the receiving end of those kinds of fouls. And they don't do much cheap shots if there is any. And while the "Bad Boys" of the Pistons were really great players, there is just this baggage associated with them. So maybe while ESPN is at it, maybe they can do a better job in promoting a better image of the Pacers. You know, something like how the media did with Memphis right now.

You touched on a point that I hadn't thought of. Are Pacer fans concerned that this "comparison" will negatively affect the perception to casual fans and that will thus affect the popularity of the team locally? I could see how that could be a concern after the post-brawl years.

15th parallel
02-07-2013, 10:19 PM
You touched on a point that I hadn't thought of. Are Pacer fans concerned that this "comparison" will negatively affect the perception to casual fans and that will thus affect the popularity of the team locally? I could see how that could be a concern after the post-brawl years.

Exactly. The Bad Boys in terms of their great level of defense is a compliment. The Bad Boys in terms of bad reputation is not good for the team. They just got over the "Team of Thugs" image. Casual fans may take things negatively if the Pacers are promoted as being the new Bad Boys. I admire that Pistons team btw, but with a team trying so hard to reach out to turned off fans, you just don't want to be associated with that term.

Major Cold
02-07-2013, 10:27 PM
We shall see in the playoffs. Starting in round one game one. But I will watch our next game first.

shags
02-07-2013, 10:31 PM
Exactly. The Bad Boys in terms of their great level of defense is a compliment. The Bad Boys in terms of bad reputation is not good for the team. They just got over the "Team of Thugs" image. Casual fans may take things negatively if the Pacers are promoted as being the new Bad Boys. I admire that Pistons team btw, but with a team trying so hard to reach out to turned off fans, you just don't want to be associated with that term.

I understand. That's a completely legitimate concern IMO.

PacersPride
02-07-2013, 10:36 PM
Usually I'm not the kind to say I told to so, but..... :laugh:

By the way, the bad boys weren't necessarily dirty, ether, aside from laimbeer and mahorn, and we lost mahorn after one year.

This is the identity that you're going to get, wether you want it or not. You play a defense first philosophy, in a small market, without a media superstar. It goes against conventional logic, so this is the conclusion that the masses will jump to.

Forgive the lameness of this, but if you're going to get a seat at the table, this is pretty much what you're going to have to get used to. You can either swim against the current, or put on the black hat and use it to your advantage.

The bad boys wen from also fans to a mini dynasty when isiah said "**** this, if you want us to be the bad guys, we'll show you bad guys." The pistons actually ordered custom made Detroit Raider merchandise, sponsored by Al Davis. Zeke was the first guy to discover a dirty little secret about the NBA. The bad guys can win.

I believe Reggie miller understood this as well, but his teams never really took that step with him to the dark side.

I guess my point is, the bad boys philosophy was never really about cheating or hurting people. They did very little of both, despite their reputation. It's about embracing being the party crashers, throwing the middle finger to the league, and being loved more locally by how much every other other place in the league resents you for not being typical.

I know your a Piston fan but I dont want anything to do with the Franchise in Detroit. Thomas played at Indiana, he wasnt a dirty player he was just really good. Laimbeer was though. If Foster were still playing maybe the comparision would be more accurrate.

We will earn a seat at the table the way Indiana Basketball does it. Tough hard nosed fundamentally sound basketball.

With all due respect. In no way do I want this team to be refereneced to anything Pistons.

Its an insult to what this Franchise has recovered from.

Hicks
02-07-2013, 11:49 PM
I think we're more like the 2004 Pistons than we are the 89/90 Pistons.

BlueNGold
02-07-2013, 11:53 PM
We will earn a seat at the table the way Indiana Basketball does it. Tough hard nosed fundamentally sound basketball.



I completely agree. This team is basically the anti-thesis of the bad boys. Former Spur George Hill is not a bad boy. Neither is our all-star. Neither is DWest who is Mr. Fundamental...a poor man's Tim Duncan. Then you have that tough guy Hibbert who throws people around. Yeh...bad to the bone.

Seriously though, this team just plays good fundamental basketball and it's solid with that extra spice of Paul and Lance who may have the talent to get it done.

oxxo
02-08-2013, 12:16 AM
Thorpe is clueless about the NBA. The fact he considers the Pacers 'dirty' is just another example of how he knows absolutely nothing about the NBA except his clients (who he tries to promote 24/7).

Downtown Bang!
02-08-2013, 10:05 AM
I don't give a rip how the national media or opposing fans label the team. But be prepared for it to really ramp up if the Pacers end up in another knock down drag out playoff series with the Heat.

I just want the front office to own this style of play and stick with it personnel wise going forward. Walsh failed to do that in the mid-90's and IMO cost the team at least one more trip to the finals and maybe a championship in the strike year or 98 had we got past the Bulls.

Steagles
02-08-2013, 10:09 AM
You know, I could care less what ESPN thinks of us. They obviously didn't pay attention to us before, why do they matter? I just care that we are finally winning games.

Hicks
02-08-2013, 12:13 PM
The only attention I want from ESPN is (ugh, only because they prefer it this way) Stu Scott when he's interviewing us as the newest NBA champions.

Ransom
02-08-2013, 12:42 PM
Pacers as the Butler Bulldogs of the NBA maybe?