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Harddrive7
12-17-2004, 08:34 AM
of course open for discussion.

Sometime back, I think on IS, when Tins first got here it seems that you had stated that Tins probably wouldn't fair much in this league due to his lack of atheleticism.(I'm sorry if I'm misquoting you.)

I was curious due to his recent accomplishments, "22.1 points over the past seven games, and his season scoring average of 15.2 is a career high by nearly six points. He also ranks fourth in the NBA in assists (7.9) and second in steals (2.75)", and overall ability to run a team, if he has a better chance then what you had thought of becoming one of the elite point gaurds of our league and possibly the best this team has ever had?

This, by all means isn't an "I told you so" thread, I'm really curious to what you think. Are you happy we have him now?

Peck
12-17-2004, 08:42 AM
Here allow me, I told you so. :-p

Basically U.B. just doesn't care for the type of p.g. that J.T. represents.

I'll let him explain but basically he feels that the point guards main job is to be the first wave of attack on perimeter defense. He must be able to shoot & penatrate.

Passing is a good skill but not nearly as valued by him as the ability to defend the other p.g.

Think Travis Best. :shudder: Sorry I actually just thought of Travis Best.

Remember U.B. takes defense first second & last. J.T. used to take huge risk when trying to steal the ball & in doing so would often leave himself wide open to being burned.

However now that he is in better shape, his family is not dying on him & the team has learned that it has a hard time winning without him he has become one of the if not the best p.g. in the N.B.A.

able
12-17-2004, 09:04 AM
However now that he is in better shape, his family is not dying on him & the team has learned that it has a hard time winning without him he has become one of the if not the best p.g. in the N.B.A.

As they say in parliament: Hear Hear!

Unclebuck
12-17-2004, 09:10 AM
of course open for discussion.

Sometime back, I think on IS, when Tins first got here it seems that you had stated that Tins probably wouldn't fair much in this league due to his lack of atheleticism.(I'm sorry if I'm misquoting you.)

I was curious due to his recent accomplishments, "22.1 points over the past seven games, and his season scoring average of 15.2 is a career high by nearly six points. He also ranks fourth in the NBA in assists (7.9) and second in steals (2.75)", and overall ability to run a team, if he has a better chance then what you had thought of becoming one of the elite point gaurds of our league and possibly the best this team has ever had?

This, by all means isn't an "I told you so" thread, I'm really curious to what you think. Are you happy we have him now?


Let me address this before I respond to Peck's comments.

I was wrong about Tinsley, no question about it, dead wrong. Right now he is one of the best point guards in the NBA, certainly top 10, maybe closer to 6th or 7th best.

Having said that let me explain a little. I loved Tinsley the first time I saw him, I was one of his biggest fans during Tinsley's first two months in the NBA. But then I don't know if he gained weight or Isiah's coaching got to him, or if I just started noticing his flaws.

I could deal with his poor shooting, I could deal with his risk taking on offense, I could deal with everything he brought to the table. But his defense drove me crazy. It was horrible, he had no concept of how to play defense and rarely semed to even try to play defense.

But his defense started to improve to semi-acceptable levels last season, as I said last year I finally saw T in a defensive stance. Shows what a little coaching will do.

To your specific point, I did make a huge deal after the 2003 season about Tinsley's lack of athleticism and his inability to create any offense in the halfcourt. I believe I was correct about that at the time, but two major changes of taken place since then. New coaching staff that has provided a little structure which allows Tinsley to be creative, and most of all Tinsley is in great condition, and he is much quicker.

I never questioned Tinsley's passing ability, but he ws too slow to get whee he needed to be. I never questioned Tinsley's hands, the best in the league if you ask me, but he was too slow to get near the ball, but now he is much quicker.


Right now I only have two concerns.

1) He is injury prone
2) I am still not satisfied with his on the ball defense, but it is now acceptable and his overall defensive contribution is very good because if he gets near the ball he will come up with it.

Unclebuck
12-17-2004, 09:29 AM
Here allow me, I told you so. :-p

Basically U.B. just doesn't care for the type of p.g. that J.T. represents.

I'll let him explain but basically he feels that the point guards main job is to be the first wave of attack on perimeter defense. He must be able to shoot & penatrate.

Passing is a good skill but not nearly as valued by him as the ability to defend the other p.g.

Think Travis Best. :shudder: Sorry I actually just thought of Travis Best.

Remember U.B. takes defense first second & last. J.T. used to take huge risk when trying to steal the ball & in doing so would often leave himself wide open to being burned.

However now that he is in better shape, his family is not dying on him & the team has learned that it has a hard time winning without him he has become one of the if not the best p.g. in the N.B.A.


OK, Peck, I'll address your post. I was trying to find a word to try and explain what I need to do, and the word grovel came to mind. here is the definition. To lie or creep in a prostrate position, as in subservience or humility.

But yes I think the point guard is the most importat defensive player on the court, if he can't pressure his guy and he can't keep his guy out of the lane then the whole defense falls apart.

I think I have said enough on this topic

ABADays
12-17-2004, 10:13 AM
I won't let UB stand by himself here. Basically, in a word, I thought Tinsley was "uncoachable". At least that is what he was demonstrating to me.

It appears I was understatedly wrong.

Grant
12-17-2004, 10:30 AM
In some ways, he's a lot like another former Pacer - Mark Jackson.

Jackson, was not really very fast, and not a great defensive player, but he could run a team and was a pass first PG.

There are a lot of things that we would like to see from a PG - probably more so than any other position. We want a guy that can defend, drive, dish, direct, shoot, take care of the ball, make teammates better, stay healthy, get loose balls, etc.

My view is that no PG does everything really well (have you seen Jason Kidd shoot?), so you just have to take Tins for what he is, and take it as a bonus when he adds or improves something in his game. He's definitely been the most important player on the team this year.

Harddrive7
12-17-2004, 10:55 AM
In some ways, he's a lot like another former Pacer - Mark Jackson.

Jackson, was not really very fast, and not a great defensive player, but he could run a team and was a pass first PG.

There are a lot of things that we would like to see from a PG - probably more so than any other position. We want a guy that can defend, drive, dish, direct, shoot, take care of the ball, make teammates better, stay healthy, get loose balls, etc.

My view is that no PG does everything really well (have you seen Jason Kidd shoot?), so you just have to take Tins for what he is, and take it as a bonus when he adds or improves something in his game. He's definitely been the most important player on the team this year.


Very good post Grant, you're absolutely correct.