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View Full Version : Why do GM's want to help Detriot?



Arcadian
12-14-2004, 12:50 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&id=1945978

I can't believe Chicago is considering trading Williams to Detriot for Parker and a 30 yr. old rookie PG.

If they are trading Williams because of a back up of guards on their roster how does this trade help?

Is Paxon so jealous of Ainge that he wants some credit for building a championship team, too?

I just don't get it.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 12:54 PM
All I know is Larry Brown is drooling over Frank Williams.....this is the kind of PG that thrives in his system.

That's the kind of PG the Pistons have needed in the worst way. Our biggest problem this year has been ball movement off the bench.

BTW, our beat writers say the deal has been done since YESTERDAY, but cant be announced until wednesday.

I've actually had my eye on Frank Williams for a long time now. He reminds me of an unpolished Tinsley. Erratic shooter, but he has those street PG skills you just can't teach. He knows how to run a team.

unstandable
12-14-2004, 12:55 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Detroit includes a second round pick in the final deal. Plus I'm not sure that Williams is better than Parker.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 12:59 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Detroit includes a second round pick in the final deal. Plus I'm not sure that Williams is better than Parker.

I have no problem giving up Smush+ a 2nd rounder. We have 2 of them anyway.

Smush is a nice talent, but he's a SG in a PG's body. He has little to no true PG skills. And the Pistons already have 3 good SG (Rip, Delfino, Dupree). Smush isn't needed.

Arcadian
12-14-2004, 01:01 PM
Part of my bitterness and respect towards Joe is that he gets teams to make deals like this.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 01:03 PM
BTW, the fact Joe got ANYONE to take Horace Jenkins is amazing.

That guy was the John Edwards of PGs. No, I take it back, he was probably WORSE.....

bballboy1
12-14-2004, 01:11 PM
KSTAt, we do not care much about the Detroit Pistons. They are a bunch of garbage and lowlives.

DisplacedKnick
12-14-2004, 01:11 PM
I've always compared Williams with Andre Miller. Looks slow but he's kind of "sneaky-quick", decent shot and just knows how to make things work - and a better defender than you'd think because of how strong he is.

Right before we got Marbury last year Williams finally cracked the starting lineup - which he should have done a long time earlier. He played very well and so did the team.

Good pickup for Det and LB will be a good coach for him - the systems definitely mesh.

Fool
12-14-2004, 01:21 PM
So far Joe has been very good at targeting and using other GM's self interests to his benefit

Bball
12-14-2004, 01:41 PM
Why do GMs (seemingly) want to help Detriot?

Because Dumars is arguably the best GM in the league?

-Bball

Hicks
12-14-2004, 02:10 PM
Why would Chicago do this?

waxman
12-14-2004, 02:25 PM
So chicago will most likely release Parker... who would then go back to Detroit if the Pistons want him... so he doesn't even need to clean out his locker.

Nice trade Paxson.... trade a viable point guard for... um..... nothing.

Fool
12-14-2004, 02:27 PM
Why would Chicago do this?


Chicago Roster

Luol Deng G
Chris Duhon G
Ben Gordon G
Kirk Hinrich G
Jannero Pargo G
Eric Piatkowski G
Frank Williams G

Number of first and second round picks = 0

Los Angeles
12-14-2004, 02:34 PM
Just speculating here, but mayber there's locker room troubles behind this in Chicago.

Hinrich ain't exactly a "street ball" player. Maybe the two styles were just too different and somebody had to go.

I still have a problem seeing the plus side for Chicago.

Arcadian
12-14-2004, 02:53 PM
The article I read didn't mention any draft picks. Besides I am sure that Williams could fetch a draft pick somewhere besides a division rival and championship contender.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 02:59 PM
The article I read didn't mention any draft picks. Besides I am sure that Williams could fetch a draft pick somewhere besides a division rival and championship contender.

I'm sorry, you must be under the misconseption that Chicago sees itself as a conference contender.....

Like Boston last year, I doubt they care what the other team gets out of this, as long as they get something. They're not looking to contend anytime soon.

Boston got chucky atkins last year, and turned him into Gary Payton over the summer. They also got Tony Allen from our draft pick, who is making a big contribution as a rookie.

Atlanta, instead of losing Sheed for nothing, got a steal in Josh Smith with the pick we sent them.

If you look back, that deal wroked out GREAT for Boston and Atlanta.

That's why teams do buisness with Joe D. He makes GOOD trades. Most teams have benefitted from his deals. The only teams that get screwed are typically the other east contenders....

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 03:15 PM
-snip- Boston got chucky atkins last year, and turned him into Gary Payton over the summer. They also got Tony Allen from our draft pick, who is making a big contribution as a rookie.

Atlanta, instead of losing Sheed for nothing, got a steal in Josh Smith with the pick we sent them.

If you look back, that deal wroked out GREAT for Boston and Atlanta.
Does anybody else actually believe that?

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:22 PM
Does anybody else actually believe that?

lets see.........

Boston traded what amounted to Mike James, for Tony Allen (all-rookie potential) and Gary Payton.

Atlanta traded a free-agent-to-be, who was %100 certain to leave over the summer, for Josh Smith, who has actually been BETTER than Randolph Childress, who they took in the lottery.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can say that those two teams DIDN'T benefit from that deal. The fact that it screwed Indiana is moot. Danny Ainge and Pete Babcock are paid to look out for the best interests of their teams, not the Indiana Pacers.

I still wonder why more teams don't make deals like this. GMs who choose personal pride over a good deal are what ruins franchises. Who cares if you're trading Sheed, Mike James, or Shaq. If that player is a LOCK to leave you over the summer for nothing, and you have one chance to get SOMETHING for him, you TAKE THE "SOMETHING."

Atlanta got a HS kid thats going o be a stud for the next 15 years. He's got amazing athletic ability.

I GUARENTEE you both Celtic and Hawk fans are thrilled with having those two rookies on their teams......they've been among the best rookies in the NBA.

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 03:29 PM
I'm not saying that it doesn't look better now, but I still think its lopsided in favor of Detroit. What's the old rule of thumb on an NBA trade? It is - who got the best player in the trade? Well, Altanta may hope that Josh Smith is one-day better than Rasheed, but with thier history he'll turn into the next Dominique and they'll trade him to the Clippers in his prime.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:32 PM
I'm not saying that it doesn't look better now, but I still think its lopsided in favor of Detroit. What's the old rule of thumb on an NBA trade? It is - who got the best player in the trade? Well, Altanta may hope that Josh Smith is one-day better than Rasheed, but with thier history he'll turn into the next Dominique and they'll trade him to the Clippers in his prime.

See, thats misguided, though.

Atlanta traded NOTHING for Josh Smith. Because nothing is all they would have right now if they didn't make the deal. So yes, Atlanta made a heck of a trade for their franchise.

Now what Atlanta does in the future with him is your opinion, but the fact remains he's looking like a pretty valuable kid right now.

unstandable
12-14-2004, 03:33 PM
I think Atlanta would have sign and traded Sheed to the Knicks if they had held onto him. I'm not sure what they would have got, but it wouldn't have been nothing.

DisplacedKnick
12-14-2004, 03:34 PM
Does anybody else actually believe that?

It worked out great for Atlanta - they weren't going anywhere anyhow.

Not so sure about Boston - sitting 9-11 with a 35-year-old PG.

Worked out great for me too - I got Josh in the Keeper League! :rock: :bananadan

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:35 PM
It worked out great for Atlanta - they weren't going anywhere anyhow.

Not so sure about Boston - sitting 9-11 with a 35-year-old PG.

If you've seen Tony Allen play recently, I think you'll agree they got a good deal.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:36 PM
I think Atlanta would have sign and traded Sheed to the Knicks if they had held onto him. I'm not sure what they would have got, but it wouldn't have been nothing.

No, Sheed would have just gone to NY for the MLE, like he said he was going to do. Why would NY sign and trade for him when they could have gotten him for nothing?

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 03:38 PM
See, thats misguided, though.

Atlanta traded NOTHING for Josh Smith. Because nothing is all they would have right now if they didn't make the deal. So yes, Atlanta made a heck of a trade for their franchise.

Now what Atlanta does in the future with him is your opinion, but the fact remains he's looking like a pretty valuable kid right now.
Using this logic, didn't Atlanta effectively trade SAR and Alan Henderson for Josh Smith?

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:39 PM
Don't try to logically operate when it comes to the Knicks.

:whip2:

Considering NY didn't have any 1st rounders last summer anyway, I don't see what Atlanta could have gotten. Keep in mind Babcock was under orders not to take any big salaries.

Arcadian
12-14-2004, 03:39 PM
I guess we have different views on trading with division rivals.

Do you think Chicago benefits from this deal? I guess we have to wait to see what the deal actually includes and what Chicago does with it. As it stands with Parker, Jenkins and no picks I think it is horrible with little long term benefit.

I understand why the Hawks traded Wallace.

Boston actually turned Mihms, Jones, and Atkins into Payton. And while Tony helps justify the trade it was still a 25th pick. I don't know if great is the word for it.

I'm not taking away anything from Detriot. They deserve all the credit in the world for getting it done.

unstandable
12-14-2004, 03:39 PM
I never bought that Sheed would take the MLE. I think he just threatened that so that Atlanta would deal him. NY would have sign and traded for him because he would tell them that if they didn't he would sign with some team with cap room (plenty would have been interested).

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:41 PM
Using this logic, didn't Atlanta effectively trade SAR and Alan Henderson for Josh Smith?

No, they traded Ratliff and Rahim for Josh Smith :D

see, THAT deal you could question, because Rahim and Ratliff were STILL under contract past 2004.

However, if their goal was to create cap room, then you have to admit they did as well as they could have.

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 03:44 PM
Ahhh ****, I knew I should've looked that one up before I typed it. :blush:

I see where you're coming from, which is why I was asking questions instead of blatantly jumping all over you.

Let me think about it from this perspective.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:44 PM
I never bought that Sheed would take the MLE. I think he just threatened that so that Atlanta would deal him. NY would have sign and traded for him because he would tell them that if they didn't he would sign with some team with cap room (plenty would have been interested).

The fact remains though, NY had no inexpensive tradable assets.....they had already spent every desirable player/pick on their roster for Marbury....

Not to mention, I think if you WANT other teams to trade for you, you do NOT announce your summer FA destination in March.....actually, I think thats what drove intrest in him DOWN enough that Joe D was about the only GM in the NBA willing to take him....

unstandable
12-14-2004, 03:48 PM
I think Rasheed was hoping that the Hawks would trade him to the Knicks midseason, and then they would have his Bird rights and he could resign there for big money. So he said he would sign there in the offseason for the MLE, hoping that the Hawks would deal him there midseason in fear that they wouldn't get anything in the summer.

As for what NY would have traded, Atlanta took on some big contracts in the summer in Antoine Walker and Al Harrington, and the Knicks could have provided similar players on similar deals and some young talent.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:50 PM
I think Rasheed was hoping that the Hawks would trade him to the Knicks midseason, and then they would have his Bird rights and he could resign there for big money. So he said he would sign there in the offseason for the MLE, hoping that the Hawks would deal him there midseason in fear that they wouldn't get anything in the summer.

As for what NY would have traded, Atlanta took on some big contracts in the summer in Antoine Walker and Al Harrington, and the Knicks could have provided similar players on similar deals and some young talent.

Well, they traded big contracts FOR those big contracts.....and walker will be a FA soon.

Actually, considring they got rid of ALAN HENDERSON's ugly deal, I'd say thats a heck of a trade for Atl.

SO they didn;t really take on MORE salary, they actually got RID of salary long-term.

As for Harrington, salary or not, that is a player that you DO NOT PASS UP if you're Atlanta. He's young, he puts up 17 and 8, and isn't overpaid. NY doesn't have anyone CLOSE to that kind of value.

DisplacedKnick
12-14-2004, 03:51 PM
Don't try to logically operate when it comes to the Knicks.

:whip2:

Whoa! Zekedom rules!

Starting to hear goofy Vince trade scenarios from NY.

Actually, I've been hearing them for a week but now I'm getting e-mails from people I TRUST.

Is Pete Babcock that desperate?

sweabs
12-14-2004, 03:52 PM
Is Pete Babcock that desperate?
Rob Babcock.

And yes...I think he is that desperate! But I believe he really wants a centre in any deal he makes...which is why he will push for Nazr.

unstandable
12-14-2004, 03:55 PM
Well the Knicks had a ton of guys they were willing to deal with short contracts - Penny Hardaway, Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Tim Thomas, etc, and the Hawks probably could have got Mike Sweetney thrown in. I think they would have got something for Sheed, though I do agree that they did moderately well by getting a mid-first round pick.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:56 PM
Well the Knicks had a ton of guys they were willing to deal with short contracts - Penny Hardaway, Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Tim Thomas, etc, and the Hawks probably could have got Mike Sweetney thrown in. I think they would have got something for Sheed, though I do agree that they did moderately well by getting a mid-first round pick.

that's my point.

Altnta got the 15 pick in the draft, which is better than any of the garbage (sorry Rim) on NY's overstuffed roster.

sweabs
12-14-2004, 03:56 PM
I thought you said he wanted a center?! :confused:
:laugh: Hey, when it comes down to Loren Woods VS. Nazr Mohammed...I think you'll take Nazr.

unstandable
12-14-2004, 03:57 PM
I'd rather have Mike Sweetney than Josh Smith, but I'll admit I've only seen one of Smith's games.

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:58 PM
:laugh: Hey, when it comes down to Loren Woods VS. Nazr Mohammed...I think you'll take Nazr.

We need an official "toronto-NY trade ideas thread..."

Just THINK of all the crap rcarey and Rim would come up with....

btw Rcarey, have you welcomed Mike Curry yet?

Kstat
12-14-2004, 03:59 PM
I'd rather have Mike Sweetney than Josh Smith, but I'll admit I've only seen one of Smith's games.

You see the game where he blocked Rip Hamilton's first four shots?

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 03:59 PM
Yeah, even with the goofy Canadian spelling, I'd still take Nazr to play centre.

sweabs
12-14-2004, 04:02 PM
We need an official "toronto-NY trade ideas thread..."

Just THINK of all the crap rcarey and Rim would come up with....

btw Rcarey, have you welcomed Mike Curry yet?
Yes, I agree, we need a Raptors/Knicks trade thread!!!

I've welcomed Mike Curry. Obviously I saw him a lot last year, and the one thing everyone said was what a great voice he was on the floor and in the locker room. I don't see him playing many minutes...because Kevin O'Neil is only an assistant coach here :laugh:. But on Toronto, Kevin played him a little too much...that hurt the Raptors. I definitely understand what you are talking about when you say teams will leave him wide open...but it's not like they were respecting the jumper of Tremaine Fowlkes anymore.

Either way, Curry is going to provide help sitting on the bench...which is more valuable than Fowlkes sitting on the bench.

unstandable
12-14-2004, 04:04 PM
I don't see him playing many minutes...because Kevin O'Neil is only an assistant coach here :laugh:. But on Toronto, Kevin played him a little too much...that hurt the Raptors.

Um, you are aware who the head coach is in Indiana, right? He's an even bigger Curry fan than O'Neill.

sweabs
12-14-2004, 04:06 PM
Um, you are aware who the head coach is in Indiana, right? He's an even bigger Curry fan than O'Neill.
I still don't think he will be used here as much compared to last year...where I believe he actually STARTED numerous games.

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 04:06 PM
I was hoping we'd just let that one slide. :mad:

unstandable
12-14-2004, 04:09 PM
I still don't think he will be used here as much compared to last year...where I believe he actually STARTED numerous games.

Two years ago Rick Carlisle started Curry all season! Despite the fact that he had the third worst plus/minus in the entire league (out of 228 players).

Kstat
12-14-2004, 04:13 PM
Two years ago Rick Carlisle started Curry all season! Despite the fact that he had the third worst plus/minus in the entire league (out of 228 players).

Yeah, I still remember the 6-game west coast road trip that Curry was outscored a combined 126-4 by the opposing starting SFs........

man, its fun to laugh about the Curry days after-the-fact....... :D

Unstandable, just let them be. Its impossible to explain to them in words the true horror of Michael Curry.....neither did the Raptors fans, at first. Just wait a couple months.

Ah, I found the scores from our STARTING SF that trip...

@ Minnesota 14 mins, 0-2 FG (loss) Szerbiak scored 20.
@ Seattle 20 mins, 0-3 FG (loss) Rashard Lewis scored 22.
@ Sacramento 20 min, 0-5 FG (loss) Peja scored 14.
@ LAL 20 min, 0-1 FG (loss) Fox scored 11.
@ G.S. 20 min, 1-5 FG (he made one!) (lost anyway) Jamison scored 22.
@ Portland 15 mind, 0-1 FG (loss) Bonzi Wlls scored 37.

SO we have a combined 4 points on %5.8 shooting in 6 games, his opponents scored a combined 126 on him.......on %58 shooting :D

sweabs
12-14-2004, 04:13 PM
Two years ago Rick Carlisle started Curry all season! Despite the fact that he had the third worst plus/minus in the entire league (out of 228 players).
Well, until we get some guys back, Rick doesn't have much choice in placing guys at the SF spot. But guys like Freddie, Reggie, James are still going to get their minutes.

I'm sure he is more comfortable putting Curry out on the floor than Tremaine Fowlkes. Sure, teams may leave him wide open to shoot the ball. But didn't they do the same thing with Fowlkes? At least Curry has basketball IQ and leadership on the floor.

shags
12-14-2004, 07:17 PM
First, I'll be very surprised if Michael Curry isn't the starting SF in the Christmas Day game. Very surprised. Playing him over Prince two years ago got Carlisle fired.

Secondly, trading is Joe Dumars' greatest strength as a GM. The Sheed deal has been mentioned several times in this thread. The Wallace-Atkins for Hill deal is the highest profile one. Here's three more:

1. Hamilton for Stackhouse, 2002. Another high profile trade, which was highly criticized when it happened. I suppose you could argue since Washington got Jamison for Stack 2 years later it was a good deal for them. I suppose.

2. Cliff Robinson for Jud Buechler and John Wallace, 2001. The Suns made this trade the same time as the Kidd deal. Not a banner year for the Suns GM.

3. Jon Barry and a first round pick (which turned into Carlos Delfino) for Mateen Cleaves. The Kings were looking to cut payroll.

This trade is low risk, high reward for the Pistons. Williams could end up on the Injured List, or he could contribute in a Mike James-like fashion. His contract ends after this season, and it's unlikely he'd be resigned either way.

indytoad
12-14-2004, 09:16 PM
Really, by this point, I don't think there can be any doubt Dumars is the best GM in the game. Jerry West who?

IndyToad
Nice move

Slick Pinkham
12-14-2004, 09:47 PM
I'm not sure that Boston made out very well in the Rasheed trade. Tony Allen looks good fro a rookie. Gary Payton has no interest in staying after this season. Meanwhile, Chris Mihm is playing well enough that Vlade Divac returns and the Lakers say "take some more time off, Vlade".

Mihm is pretty decent.

Tony Allen may be a starter in a few years, but as a 6'4" shooting guard who is more a slasher than a shooter, he may always be limited to being a role player unless his shot improves A LOT.

SoupIsGood
12-15-2004, 12:23 AM
A good GM keeps a championship team together.

Joe D continues to screw with the roster.

Kstat
12-15-2004, 12:35 AM
A good GM keeps a championship team together.

Joe D continues to screw with the roster.

As opposed to all those GOOD championship GMs, who never changed ANYTHING after the first title...... ;)

sweabs
12-15-2004, 12:38 AM
A good GM keeps a championship team together.

Joe D continues to screw with the roster.
He's doing a good job of keeping the core group of guys together.

All he is doing is tweaking the roster in places...which is what he needs to do.

unstandable
12-15-2004, 01:53 AM
A good GM keeps a championship team together.

Joe D continues to screw with the roster.

I think the Pistons are the first championship team in several years to return their entire starting five the next season.

Kstat
12-15-2004, 02:34 AM
I think the Pistons are the first championship team in several years to return their entire starting five the next season.

Actually, theyre only the 2nd (2003 Lakers) championship team in the last 15 years to leave their starting 5 intact.

Free Artest
12-15-2004, 08:45 AM
Detroit has no shot at a repeat. After watching them play this season, I think it's safe to say their championship was nothing but luck. They got all the calls, and every single team they played had major injuries.
Detroit just dont have the talent level needed to compete. They have a lot of solid players, but not a single dominant (top 15-20) player whereas the Pacers & Heat each have 2 in O'Neal/Artest & Shaq/Wade.
I don't think Detroit can get past Miami. And if Artest is allowed back this season (my sources are saying he will be) then they have no shot at getting past the Pacers either.

Fool
12-15-2004, 08:47 AM
Joe D isn't flawless (I'm not complaining, I'm just adding balance). His drafting has been sketchy so far (hits, misses, and undecideds).

Kstat
12-15-2004, 11:26 AM
Detroit has no shot at a repeat. After watching them play this season, I think it's safe to say their championship was nothing but luck. They got all the calls, and every single team they played had major injuries.
Detroit just dont have the talent level needed to compete. They have a lot of solid players, but not a single dominant (top 15-20) player whereas the Pacers & Heat each have 2 in O'Neal/Artest & Shaq/Wade.
I don't think Detroit can get past Miami. And if Artest is allowed back this season (my sources are saying he will be) then they have no shot at getting past the Pacers either.
ladies and gentlemen....I give you the IndyStar board. :D

shags
12-15-2004, 11:44 AM
Detroit has no shot at a repeat. After watching them play this season, I think it's safe to say their championship was nothing but luck. They got all the calls, and every single team they played had major injuries.
Detroit just dont have the talent level needed to compete. They have a lot of solid players, but not a single dominant (top 15-20) player whereas the Pacers & Heat each have 2 in O'Neal/Artest & Shaq/Wade.
I don't think Detroit can get past Miami. And if Artest is allowed back this season (my sources are saying he will be) then they have no shot at getting past the Pacers either.

Your sources!?!? I don't even have a joke here.

Fool
12-15-2004, 12:17 PM
The deal that started this thread has been put on hold btw.

Arcadian
12-15-2004, 12:38 PM
Did Paxson realize it didn't help his team in the slightest? Or did he find out should the Pistons repeat that he would not get a ring for giving them Williams?

Kstat
12-15-2004, 02:40 PM
Did Paxson realize it didn't help his team in the slightest? Or did he find out should the Pistons repeat that he would not get a ring for giving them Williams?

Neither.

Smush Parker can't be traded till jan 1, so the trade is put on hold for 2 weeks.

However, all indications are that the trade is still there.