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ChicagoJ
12-13-2004, 06:47 PM
Pick your favorite all-time, all-Pacers team (can include ABA guys).

As of right now, my team would be:

PG - Jackson; Tinsley; [Vern, Don Buse, or Freddie Lewis for "12th man"]
SG - Reggie; Rah-jah (up until just a season or two ago, I still had Roger starting)
SF - Chuck; Billy Knight; Netolicky (IMO, Chuck is NOT negotiable) :shrug:
PF - JO; Big Mac (duh)
C - Mel; Rik (even more obvious)

Even though he was only here two seasons, I think Byron Scott deserves consideration. However, Alex English, although he turned into a great, great player, wasn't here long enough to include.

Anybody else want to throw a team out there for discussion?


And just for the fun of it, an all-time worst team, consisting of regular/ rotation players (not just the worst end-of-bench scrubs, that's too easy):

PG - Pooh; Travis
SG - Stansberry; McCloud
SF - Bender; Kellogg (although many you will disagree based on Clark's ability to put up 20/10.)
PF - Herb, Waymon
C - Oh my goodness, we could probably name twelve guys right here, forget the other positions. Tom Owens. Granville Waiters. Stuart Grey. Truthfully, James Edwards sucked and was a foul-prone klutz when he was with the Pacers. Dwayne Schintzius, except for one game in Orlando when Rik was suspended. Greg Dreiling (although personally, I liked Greg). Jon Tabak. Pollard. Truthfully, just about every C that ever played for the Pacers not named Daniels, Smits, Stipanovich, Miller or, hopefully, Harrison.

Well, have fun... this could keep our minds off of other stuff for a while. Or fade quickly into "no reply" obscurity.

Hicks
12-13-2004, 06:51 PM
Assume all players are in their prime (whether that's in the past or in the future)

Tinsley
Miller
Artest (ONLY we hire a Shaman to destroy his demons, if not, I'll go with Person)
O'Neal
Daniels

Los Angeles
12-13-2004, 06:59 PM
Jackson I
Miller I
Rose (sorry but the shaman tried and failed on Ronnie)
O'Neal
Miller II

Laugh all you want, I can take it.

recap
12-13-2004, 07:12 PM
Favortie Team of Pacers (not based on ability to score the ball or actually beat anyone):

Workman
Reggie
Artest
Dale Davis
Jeff Foster


Team I would least like to watch:

pg - Jalen Rose or Travis Best
sg - Jalen Rose
sf - Jalen Rose
pf - Jalen Rose
c - Tabak

Kegboy
12-13-2004, 07:19 PM
pg - Jalen Rose or Travis Best
sg - Jalen Rose
sf - Jalen Rose
pf - Jalen Rose
c - Tabak
Thanks, now I'm gonna have nightmares tonight. Just great. :mad:

Ragnar
12-13-2004, 07:42 PM
pg Tinsley, Jackson, Haywood (yes he was a terrible pg but I loved his hustle)

sg Miller, Sealy, Freddie

sf Ronnie, Jalen (come on he did play D when Larry was here) Mullin

pf Dale, Jermaine,

C Miller, Foster, Cro, Antonio

Unclebuck
12-13-2004, 07:52 PM
My all time favorite starting 5. By position.

Best
Reggie
Artest
Dale Davis
J.O.

Coming off the bench has to be Foster, McKey and Haywood Workman

ChicagoJ
12-13-2004, 07:54 PM
My all time favorite starting 5. By position.

Best

I'm sorry, you've already lost me. Did you say something else? :devil:

Unclebuck
12-13-2004, 08:01 PM
I'm sorry, you've already lost me. Did you say something else? :devil:


I would like to say I put Best on my all time favorite Pacers team very proudly, but I was a little hesitant. I do like Travis, but it is more of a case I was not a huge fan of Jackson, and I like Tinsley much better thna I used to , but Not as much as Travis.

To be honest Jay, I was not on any Pacers forum until October of 2000 Isiah's first season but when I started reading at posting I was shocked, absolutely shocked at how many fans did not like Travis.

But if I had to list my 10 alltime favorite pacers regardless of position, Travis might be 9th or 10th.

I really wanted McKey and Foster on the starting 5, but I just could not bump Dale or Artest.

SoupIsGood
12-13-2004, 08:24 PM
Tinsley
Miller
Irrelevant
JO/Big Mac
Harrison!

Peck
12-13-2004, 08:33 PM
Just going on favorites here & not ability.

PG- Haywood Workman
SG- Billy Knight
SF- Clark Kellogg
PF- Dale Davis
C- Brad Miller

Bench

PG- Mark Jackson
SG- Reggie Miller
SF- Kenny Williams
PF- Jermaine O'Neal/Darnell Hillman tie
C- David Harrison (Man we have really been weak at the center spot)

Los Angeles
12-13-2004, 10:04 PM
Just going on favorites here & not ability.

PG- Haywood Workman
SG- Billy Knight
SF- Clark Kellogg
PF- Dale Davis
C- Brad Miller

Bench

PG- Mark Jackson
SG- Reggie Miller
SF- Kenny Williams
PF- Jermaine O'Neal/Darnell Hillman tie
C- David Harrison (Man we have really been weak at the center spot)
Reggie Miller on the bench? You :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: !

;)

FiestyFosterFanatic
12-13-2004, 10:23 PM
I've only been watching since the 90's so here is my starters:

PG- Jackson
SG- Miller
SF- Artest
PF- O'Neal
C- Smits

Arcadian
12-13-2004, 10:23 PM
I can't believe how little love Smits is getting. Hasn't there been talk among fans about retiring his jersey?

Detlef deserves 6th man consideration. I'd put him ahead of Rose at least.

I admit to being a Travis Fan but that was partly because I grew up an ACC basketball fan.

I only remember the Pacers during the late 80's to present so my apoligies to the ABA era players.

Tinsly, Travis
Miller, Scott
Detlef, Person, Rose
JO, Dale
Smits, Foster, La Salle

tseramid
12-13-2004, 11:58 PM
I must preface this by saying that I became a Pacer fan in 1984, so I don't know the ABA guys...

PG Tinsley, Fleming
SG Miller, Rose
SF Kellogg, McKey
PF D. Davis, JO
C Smits, Foster


Least favorite:

PG Michael Williams <- The ultimate reason why defensive ability is not measured by steals per game
SG George McCloud <- Couldn't hit a lick until they moved the 3-point line in.
SF Mike Sanders <- Billed as the Jordan stopper, problem was they must have been talking about Reggie Jordan
PF Terry Mills <- Could hit everything against us...nothing for us (career 38% 3-point...for us, 17%)
C Bruno Sundov <- Half hearted effort in a position that we needed help at badly.

Honorable Mentions:
Jerome Allen <- In that horrible year in the 90's, we traded him for Darvin Ham after we got Mark Jackson back. Ham played only 5 minutes as a Pacer, but I still think we got the better end of that deal.
John Edwards <- It's really soon, but no effort and a complete revulsion towards hitting the boards puts him in my doghouse already.
Carlos Rogers <- Where did he disappear to after that all-star break anyways?

Anthem
12-14-2004, 12:11 AM
Kellogg (although many you will disagree based on Clark's ability to put up 20/10.)

What made him among the worst? Honest question.

dannyboy
12-14-2004, 03:58 AM
Became a Pacer fan in May of 1991:

1st team (still my favorite team)

M. Williams
R. Miller
C. Person
D. Schrempf
R. Smits


2nd team (favorite individual players)

J. Tinsley
J. Rose
R. Artest
J. O'neal
A. Davis


3rd team (gotta include these guys)

V. Fleming
S. Jackson
L. Thompson
D. Davis
J. Foster


Last team

P. Richardson
B. Scott
R. Mercer
S. Mitchell
S. Perkins

I pretty much liked Scott and Perkins, but not as Pacers. Nothing against Richardson and Mitchell, I just preferred to keep the guys they replaced. I really, really disliked Mercer, though.

wickedstick
12-14-2004, 05:25 AM
PG Mark Jackson
SG Reggie Miller
SF Derrick McKey
PF Dale Davis
C Rik Smits

Bench

PG Travis Best
SG Fred Jones
SF Ron Artest
PF JO
C Sam Perkins

stipo
12-14-2004, 07:39 AM
Mark Jackson
Reggie Miller
Brad Miller
Chuck P (his rookie year was unreal) (yes, I was there for his 40 ft. game winner!)
JO

bench

Vern
Dale
Steve Stipanovich (started being a big fan the year he was drafted)
Tinsley
Smits ( always felt sorry for Rik, never seemed to fit in )
Artest
Travis :shrug:

Peck
12-14-2004, 08:04 AM
Reggie Miller on the bench? You :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: !

;)

If I wasn't afraid of being run out on a rail I really wanted to put Ricky Sobers as my second favorite shooting guard, but I knew I'd be in big enough trouble not listing Reggie as # 1. :)

Peck
12-14-2004, 08:11 AM
Oh, I forgot to put my bottom five up there. Now remember this is not based on ability, this is based on being my least favorite.

PG- Travis Best
SG- Butch Carter
SF- Jalen Rose
PF- LaSalle Thompson
C- James Edwards

Bench

PG- Vern Fleming (Hard to put him here but I didn't like him as a pg.)
SG- Dudley Bradley
SF- Ron Artest
PF- Mike Bantom
C- Len Elmore

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 10:47 AM
Peck, please explain to me how DD can achieve God-like status while Tank and Len Elmore are on your least-favorite list?

I'm sure there is a good reason, but I see a lot of similarities among all three players.

Peck
12-14-2004, 10:56 AM
Peck, please explain to me how DD can achieve God-like status while Tank and Len Elmore are on your least-favorite list?

I'm sure there is a good reason, but I see a lot of similarities among all three players.


Oh God no!!!!!! Tank was the biggest talker & non-doer on the planet earth. He always kept talking about how guys on the team didn't suck it up & play tough basketball & then would go out & grab 4 rebounds in 30 min. of play. He was very very similar to Tony in that regard. He was a crafty defender on occasion but he was such a big guy I always had a problem with how little he controlled the paint area.

Len on the other hand is a bad choice for me. You said we couldn't pick end of the benchers or trust me I would have gone with John Edwards, Greg Dreiling, Stuart Gray, etc. etc. Everybody but Granville because I actually liked him.

Len just happened to be the only center I could remember that started for us other than Stipo, Rik.

I guess I forgot Big Smooth. I wasn't big fan of his, but it wasn't his fault. I liked him as a veteran coming off of the bench on the finals team but I didn't like him as the starter the next season. I guess I have to stick with Elmore.

Oh Hell, I totally forgot Roby. There, that is now my official backup on the all suck team, Rick Roby.

Crap my head is totally up my @ss today, I also forgot Tom Owens. He actually will replace James Edwards as the starter on the all suck team & Roby will be his backup.

ABADays
12-14-2004, 11:07 AM
Pick your favorite all-time, all-Pacers team (can include ABA guys).

As of right now, my team would be:

PG - Jackson; Tinsley; [Vern, Don Buse, or Freddie Lewis for "12th man"]
SG - Reggie; Rah-jah (up until just a season or two ago, I still had Roger starting)
SF - Chuck; Billy Knight; Netolicky (IMO, Chuck is NOT negotiable) :shrug:
PF - JO; Big Mac (duh)
C - Mel; Rik (even more obvious)

And just for the fun of it, an all-time worst team, consisting of regular/ rotation players (not just the worst end-of-bench scrubs, that's too easy):

PG - Pooh; Travis
SG - Stansberry; McCloud
SF - Bender; Kellogg (although many you will disagree based on Clark's ability to put up 20/10.)
PF - Herb, Waymon
C - Oh my goodness, we could probably name twelve guys right here, forget the other positions. Tom Owens. Granville Waiters. Stuart Grey. Truthfully, James Edwards sucked and was a foul-prone klutz when he was with the Pacers. Dwayne Schintzius, except for one game in Orlando when Rik was suspended. Greg Dreiling (although personally, I liked Greg). Jon Tabak. Pollard. Truthfully, just about every C that ever played for the Pacers not named Daniels, Smits, Stipanovich, Miller or, hopefully, Harrison.

I would pretty much go with your favorite team with maybe the exception of Jackson. I know, I know - crucify me. I probably could have moved any of the bracketed players over. If the others had seen Brown play he would have been on everyone's team. Add Workman to the mix as a last minute pick-up. What's not to like about Woody? And as the enforcer I would add George Peeples. He always had Mel's back.

I was surprised at your pick of Kellogg on the all-worst team. He was a pretty good player until he wrecked his knee. Replace him with Reggie Harding. You remember - the 7-footer who was shot while breaking and entering.

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 11:11 AM
What made him among the worst? Honest question.
Primarily the losing. He had the uncanny ability to drop 20 points and grab 11 rebounds while still having absolutely no affect whatsoever on the outcome of the game. He was a stat-sheet stuffer, but not at all like KG or Duncan that stuff the stat sheets while dominating the game. I'm not even sure he was the best player on a bad team, just a guy that could put up big but meaningless numbers.

He was another guy that I never wanted on the team. He and Herb combined to go 9-9 against the Big Ten. Well, we already had Herb... and since those two allegedly great forwards could only win half thier games in the Big Ten, I was pretty sure they also weren't going to be able to beat NBA-caliber competition on a regular basis.

Maybe, if we didn't already have Herb, my view on him would be different. But IMO, Clark's knee injury was one of the best things that ever happened to the Pacers, because it allowed Chuck Person to play important minutes as a rookie. Remember, when we drafted him, everybody wanted to ask why we drafted another SF when we already had Clark and some people thought Waymon, who was truly a 6'7" center, would also have to play SF. Clark probably would've put up bigger numbers than Chuck that season, but Chuck lifted a perpetual twenty-odd win team to 0.500. Although it took a few more years for that team to become a perennial playoff team, it all started with the 1986-87 team, the playoff series against Altanta, and the budding Person-Dominique rivalary.

Lots of others will blame the losing on Clark's teammates, but Fleming, Herb, and Stipanovich were all starters in the 1987 playoffs, and Tisdale was the sixth man.

Anyway, that's just my opinion of Clark, as a Pacer. I know that many of you will not agree with it but that's cool.

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 11:18 AM
Oh God no!!!!!! Tank was the biggest talker & non-doer on the planet earth. He always kept talking about how guys on the team didn't suck it up & play tough basketball & then would go out & grab 4 rebounds in 30 min. of play. He was very very similar to Tony in that regard. He was a crafty defender on occasion but he was such a big guy I always had a problem with how little he controlled the paint area.

Len on the other hand is a bad choice for me. You said we couldn't pick end of the benchers or trust me I would have gone with John Edwards, Greg Dreiling, Stuart Gray, etc. etc. Everybody but Granville because I actually liked him.

Len just happened to be the only center I could remember that started for us other than Stipo, Rik.

I guess I forgot Big Smooth. I wasn't big fan of his, but it wasn't his fault. I liked him as a veteran coming off of the bench on the finals team but I didn't like him as the starter the next season. I guess I have to stick with Elmore.

Oh Hell, I totally forgot Roby. There, that is now my official backup on the all suck team, Rick Roby.

Crap my head is totally up my @ss today, I also forgot Tom Owens. He actually will replace James Edwards as the starter on the all suck team & Roby will be his backup.
I don't consider Dreiling an end-of-the-bench player, he was the starter during the 1991 playoffs and when we got swept by Boston in 1992, many people thought the biggest difference was re-inserting Rik into the lineup at the expense of Dreiling.

I agree, the Rik and Tank combination was probably one of the softest PF/C combinations in league history. I liked the idea of Tank in theory, but on the court DD was much closer to what Tank was actually supposed to do.

sixthman
12-14-2004, 11:21 AM
My favorite five:

Freddie Lewis
Reggie Miller
Ron Artest
Jermaine O'Neal
Rik Smits [yes, I know Mel was better - Rik gets my personality vote.]

Roger Brown deserves a starting spot.

I still haven't gotten over Big George going to Philly.

beast23
12-14-2004, 12:58 PM
Favorites -

PG - Done Buse
SG - Reggie Miller / Roger Brown (tie)
SF - Billy Knight
PF - George McGinnis
C - Mel Daniels

Best -
Possibly substitue Alex English for Billy Knight (tossup)

Worst -

Peck, how could you ever forget Reggie Harding at C?

Unclebuck
12-14-2004, 02:58 PM
I want to explain my thoughts on Rik Smits:

I liked him for the first 2 seasons, he had good hands, a nice shot, and was surpirsingly mobile for such a big guy especially back then. But then someone had the lamebrain idea that he should put on some weight, which he did and from that time forward he had knee, ankle, and foot problems. Luckily when Larry Brown took over he ordered Rik to lose some weight.

Smits might go down as the Pacers best midrange shooter of all time, his post game was OK, but his midrange shooting was excellent.

Smits probably is one f the very nicest guys ever to put on a pacers uniform, of course he was too nice and that hurt him on the court, and he was brutalized in the media and with the fans in years 3 through 5 or 6.

I just hated Rik's defense and rebounding, watching hyim try to help out on pick and rolls and watching him try to guard anyone still gives me nightmares and that is why to this day I love quick and mobile big guys.

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 05:18 PM
The issue, though, wasn't Rik's size. He was trying to play defense by using his hands and not his feet, and the other centers could easily move him all around the paint. Because he started playing so late in life, he never did master the fundamentals and footwork of defense. Just because you're 7'4" doesn't mean you should try to block every shot (or even *any* shots); thus he would get in foul trouble frequently, but mostly when he was helping against whomever just blew past Reggie or another failed Micheal Williams attempt at a steal.

Now when Larry Brown got ahold of him, the one brilliant thing was that he forced Rik to play in the low post. And we learned that Rik was pretty darn good in the post.

Larry Bird basically used Rik an oversized SF. And Rik, although he could hit a faceup 18-footer as well as any bigman that's ever played, just wasn't as effective as he was in 1994 and 1995, playing in the post, before the first foot surgery.

In my opinion, Rik was only in his prime for about two seasons.

Unclebuck
12-14-2004, 05:26 PM
Jay, one reason why Bird used Rik more at a face up shooter is because by the late 90's Rik was physically shot, his feet were giving him so much trouble that he could not hold his position.

But 1995 was without a doubt his best season, but then his feet starting acting up the next season he had surgery before training camp and was never the same

Sollozzo
12-14-2004, 06:11 PM
UB, correct.

Rik was awesome in 94-95, he dominated MVP-Drob in a game down in SA that year. He outplayed Patrick Ewing in the playoffs.

I'll never forget a game against the Clippers the next season, December of 1995. It was my second game in person, I was a young kid, and Rik lit the Clippers up for a career high 44. Does anyone else remember that game?

My alltime team

Jackson
Reggie
Mckey
JO
Brad

stipo
12-14-2004, 06:31 PM
I remember seeing a preseason game (or maybe team scrimmage) at MSA Riks first year. Well, the one thing that sticks out was Rik filling the right lane on a fast break, catching the ball on the run, and REVERSE DUNKING! I couldn't believe it! Who was this guy?!! and I NEVER saw anything like that from him AGAIN!:laugh:

ChicagoJ
12-14-2004, 06:36 PM
Well... let's not forget the behind-the-back pass in the ASG.

That may have also been the highpoint in Jayson Williams' life. :(

jmoney2584
12-14-2004, 06:46 PM
Least fav team:
PG- Travis Best
SG- Duane Ferrel
SF - Sam Mitchell
PF - Dale Davis :smile:
C - Greg Kite

stipo
12-14-2004, 06:59 PM
Well... let's not forget the behind-the-back pass in the ASG.

That may have also been the highpoint in Jayson Williams' life. :(
You know, I was thinking of that play as I was posting. I was so happy for Rik! It was like he really belonged! He's gotta replay that in his head over and over!!

MSA2CF
12-29-2004, 01:26 PM
Ta da!

Rik's pass (http://www.nba.com/theater/video/smits_pass_020898.mov)

realtyczar
12-29-2004, 01:38 PM
Favorites -

PG - Done Buse
SG - Reggie Miller / Roger Brown (tie)
SF - Billy Knight
PF - George McGinnis
C - Mel Daniels

Best -
Possibly substitue Alex English for Billy Knight (tossup)

Worst -

Peck, how could you ever forget Reggie Harding at C?
You just posted MY team! Mell Daniels was an assitant Coach at ISU when Larry and I were there. I used to love to watch George play and Billy Knight was with the pacers FOREVER! Having been a fan since they started in 1967. I always like Dreiling as well.

Worst has to include Wayman Tisdale. The man came into camp fat and out of shape and as I recall, had no work ethic. When they drafted him, I thought he would make an impact on the team. He did, straight down! :censored:

Bball
12-29-2004, 01:44 PM
Rik Smits
"He Hit... He Hit..."

I'll grant that was an uplifitng moment to climax a frantic few seconds at the end of the game, but whether bias or what, I'm wouldn't pick Rik as a starter on my all time Pacer team. Don't know that I'd pick him at all. I want defense and rebounding out of my center first and foremost. Ability to score is a bonus. I'll consider him for my bench for those times I needs some close in scoring/midrange scoring. I'm surprised Rik gets the 'love' he does.

-Bball

Kstat
12-29-2004, 02:11 PM
PG: Rose
SG: Miller
SF: Mullin
PF: Croshere
C: Perkins


Only because I DESTROYED kids in NBA live '99 using that lineup, because all 5 starters could nail threes......I went entire games without making a 2-pointer;)

PacerFanInBayAreaCali
12-29-2004, 02:24 PM
Damn how did I forget about Perkins!?

ChicagoJ
01-03-2005, 11:27 AM
PG: Rose
-snip-
At first, I thought you were going to tell us this was your favorite team to play against, as a "Pistons fan". :-p