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View Full Version : Who do you blame most for the riot in the Palace.



Unclebuck
12-12-2004, 07:48 PM
Sorry for going back to this again, but I don't think this has been asked and if it has, not in this way.

I want you to just give me your first response, to this question, don't think about it, just answer the question with the first answer that comes to mind.

Who is more responsible for the riot in the Palace.

Possible answers:

Artest,
Ben Wallace
Rick Carlisle
the refs
Piston fans
Jackson
Lindsey Hunter
Palace security

If you are still reading this and you have not decided yet, then you are not doiing this right.

Go back and read the question and tell us your first answer that comes to mind.

Who caused the riot in the Palace.

My answer: - The Fans

sweabs
12-12-2004, 07:52 PM
Ben Wallace.

Like everyone has pointed out...the guy overreacted. REALLY overreacted.

Ron's foul wasn't hard to begin with...Ben went to start things...and just did not stop. And of course, throwing things was a real smart idea :rolleyes:

All he had to do was go to the line and shoot his free throws :cry:

Deadshot
12-12-2004, 07:54 PM
Detroit fans (no disrepect to the ones who post here, of course)

stipo
12-12-2004, 07:57 PM
The fans. Thats how it will be remembered in the future, IMHO. When they talk about this years from now, how can a riot be blamed on one player going into the stands? It'll be blamed on some sort of mass hysteria. A mob mentality moment.

FiestyFosterFanatic
12-12-2004, 07:59 PM
Ben Wallace. if he doesn't overreact, he shoots 2 freethrows. People aren't going to be throwing stuff when someone is shooting freethrows.

Old as Dirt
12-12-2004, 08:22 PM
The 50 or fewer so called fan.started it: Palace Security was no where to be found till it had turned into a riot. And I for one feel sorry for the around 20,000 good fans.

TheSauceMaster
12-12-2004, 08:27 PM
There is way to much blame on all parties to point at one specific reason , like the prosecutor said " If Mr Green Doesn't throw the cup , we aren't here"

I dunno if I can point a finger at one person honestly , there was alot of over reaction and bad choices that night from top to bottom.

Hicks
12-12-2004, 08:36 PM
The FIRST thing I think of is Ben Wallace, simply because his overreaction was the first "act" in this whole mess that had 0 to do with basketball. Yeah, some whine about Ron's foul, but it was fair, not even a flagrant, and nothing to cry over. I'm talking that the shove was the first negative thing that happened that had nothing to do with the game being played, other than what made him mad enough to do it.

Hicks
12-12-2004, 08:37 PM
Now, so we're clear, I don't feel Ben is most at blame, I simply said what first came to mind as a cause of the whole thing. When talking the "big reasons" I look at the fans and I look at Ron Artest.

Alabama-Redneck
12-12-2004, 08:44 PM
I believe it starts with security, followed by the fans, Artest and then Wallace.

The statement "it was only a cup of ice" is true but what if it was a chair. One was thrown. I don't believe the object thrown is as relevant as the act of throwing it.

The security was non-existant. The first position is to protect the visiting team. That means becoming a barrier between the fans and the players.

When the altercation erupted on the floor between Artest and Wallace, security should have been in a defensive mode by protecting the players. Instead, if you look at the tapes, none were in position by the Pacer's bench. If you also look close, you will find red shirts on the floor by the Piston's bench.

Who do you think needs more protection?

I still think the funny thing was the officer wanting to spray Ron when Ron was standing in the middle of the floor but totally ignoring some of the fans out on the floor trying to start a fight. Where do you think his loyality resides??

I think there is enough blame for everyone to have a big piece of it.

Rumor has it, Stern wanted to suspend the entire team for the rest of the year because Pacer fans, at home watching it on TV, was cheering for the Pacers players. I don't know if that is true but it is just another rumor.:D

:cool:

stipo
12-12-2004, 08:45 PM
On second thought, I blame Mark Boyle for being unable to make a good tackle on Ron.

stipo
12-12-2004, 08:53 PM
Fine, so what if Ron had shoved the guys face so hard his neck broke? You can't play the "what if" game and substitute at will under these circumstances.

I think Alabama has a good point. It speaks to the whole "no matter what don't go into the stands" argument.

pb777
12-12-2004, 08:55 PM
I blame both Wallace and the refs.

If Ben doesnt go at Ron the riot never happens. If Ben doesnt throw a towel ot Ron the cup may have never been thrown.

If the refs would have done their JOB and ejected Ben immediatly the riot never happens. I thought this was a joke. Why was Ben on the court still? Cuz the refs were incompitant to handle the situation. I mean isnt it in their job description to eject players and make sure ejected players leave the court? WTF?

stipo
12-12-2004, 08:58 PM
If we could only harness the energy used on these Artest and/or Detroit threads, it would burn as bright and hot as a thousand suns!:idea:

stipo
12-12-2004, 09:07 PM
Of course it's a distraction for fans and media. It's even a distraction that many like because it's something to talk about. The debatable question is whether it's a distraction for the team, and that's the only thing that matters really. Of course, we've debated that here already, which is good because my wife is calling me right now!

stipo
12-12-2004, 09:08 PM
btown, one more thing--I'm as ready to move on as you are.

Alabama-Redneck
12-12-2004, 09:10 PM
Okay, so what if he had thrown a bag of feces? Or a crack pipe? Or his mother-in-law? Do we need to make certain rules under certain circumstances for every possible thing a fan might touch in his life?




PS- The chairs in that area are bolted down. They wouldn't be getting thrown. And if he ran to another section with temporary seating, took a chair, ran back and threw one, you STILL don't go into the stands. Sorry.
I agree Ron should not have gone into the stands under any circumstances but as I stated " the object thrown is not as relevant as the act of throwing it".

I think back to a couple years ago in football, when the lineman was hit in the eye and blinded by the ref's flag. That is unusual but anything can happen when something is thrown.

Retaliation is a personal thing and everyone has a different view or tolerance level. I know my fuse was pretty short when I was younger but age and maturity mellows the worst of us.;)

:cool:

Peck
12-12-2004, 09:28 PM
If you are asking for my first reaction to who is to blame your not gonna like it.

I'm not saying he is all to blame, but there is some clear culpability on his part but now in thinking about it it might go even deeper.

I was going to say I blame Rick Carlisle. Ron was losing it at half-time just go back & watch the interview he did with Jim Grey. He is complaining about lack of foul calls at the half. Then when Ben put him down on the floor I knew there would be problems.

Why did Carlisle leave the guy on the floor with that little time left & that big of a lead. He already had taken out J.O. & Cro. It was just a disaster waiting to happen.

But then that makes me think there should be another person to blame, because what I'm saying is that Carlisle should have known that Ron does not react well to certain issues. So then that kind of makes Ron the issue again. But then everybody knows Ron has this problem so ultimately I have to go to Walsh. But that is getting really carried away & away from the intent of what your question is.

I don't think there is one single person to blame for this but I will give you a list of four that I feel are the most culpable & Share equal blame.

1. Carlisle for leaving Artest in.
2. The Refs. for doing a lousy crappy job of getting the situation under control.
3. Ron Artest, for being Ron Artest.
4. John Green for throwing the cup.

But if I have to single out one of the above I am going to go with the NBA refs. for doing the single worst job of controling a situation I've ever seen. You said it best, if Joey Crawford had been there this would never have occured.

Shade
12-12-2004, 09:42 PM
The refs. Their lax enforcemnet of the rules allowed too much physical play that escalated into everything.

Hicks
12-12-2004, 09:52 PM
I have to speak up about blaming Rick Carlisle. I think that's absurd. He shouldn't be expected to pull Ron out of any game in which we gain a big lead that we've only had for a few minutes at best. If we had had the game wrapped up for 5 minutes already I might begin to agree, but it wasn't too long ago that we were only up 5. Considering the opposition, I don't blame leaving one of your best players in to make sure nothing (in game) goes wrong and causes a fluke loss. Rick was probably (and justly) thinking of injuries when he started sitting the starters, and of Ron, JO, and Croshere, we can all agree Ron is the absolute least likely to get injuried in those final 2 minutes.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet big money that that was Rick's thinking in pulling certain stars and not others, and that's EASILY the norm around the league for head coaches when it comes to deciding who to start sitting. I think it's a giant stretch to put this on him in any way. Not even Rick, having a guy like Ron here, should be honestly expected to think "Gee, if I don't pull him soon, he might start a riot, I better get him out" (you know what I mean).

Secondly, you bring up Ron 'beginning to lose it at half-time'. So Rick was watching him be interviewed by Jim Gray, first of all? No, he's heading to the locker room. And second and more importantly here, Ron not being happy with the refs is NOT an indicator of him "losing it". Never has been IMO.

IMO this is a riduculous stretch in an attempt to find someone to blame, if only partially. Without the riot, no one would even BEGIN to think about this (Rick being wrong to leave Ron in).

Crazy.

Unclebuck
12-12-2004, 10:26 PM
I think back to a couple years ago in football, when the lineman was hit in the eye and blinded by the ref's flag. That is unusual but anything can happen when something is thrown.


:cool:


That football player got millions of dollars in a large insurance settlement because of that incident.

JOneal7
12-12-2004, 10:26 PM
Detroit Fans caused the "Riot" with ben wallace coming in a very close second! It would have been all good had the idiot not thrown the beer. But then again if Wallace just shoots his FT's THEN NOTHING HAPPENS!

recap
12-12-2004, 10:29 PM
Can I answer "all of the above"? The riot is no one person or fan's fault. I guess that I pretty evenly blame the fans, security, and the Pacers. I don't really blame Wallace.

Arcadian
12-12-2004, 10:31 PM
I blame the Detriot security and the culture the NBA has allowed to grow among stands for the incident. I blame Ron for getting the Pacers involved in it.

Unclebuck
12-12-2004, 10:37 PM
I wasn't really sure where this thread would go.

I wonder who Stern thinks is most to blame. Oh wait we know who he thinks is most to blame,

In order, Artest, then Jackson and then J.O. And a little bit on Ben Wallace. Does he blame the refs, I don't know if he has fined them but I have been watching and it seems all three refs have been officiating as many games as ever. Were they suspended for even one game, did they even get a call from Ronnie Nunn or Stern about their failure to do there job. No as a matter of fact Stern said they handled it just the way they are supposed to.

Does Stern blame the Pistons security, he seems to be making some changes, but God forbid he would even reprimand the Pistons organization, and he has been quoted as saying he won't fine the Pistons organization.

Does Stern punish the Pistons fans at all, not that I know of.

Amazing.

Unclebuck
12-12-2004, 10:38 PM
Because the referee (a part of the game) deprived him of his ability to play. When he came back a few years later, he had to give almost all of it back.


I used to work for the insurance co that settled with the player and to my knowledge he did not have to give any $$ back

pacerbob
12-12-2004, 10:47 PM
I got to blame the fans. Wallace, refs, Artest, Hunter all acted as you've seen in hundreds of games when tempers flare up. The riot began when the fans started throwing things at the players. Fists started flying when the person threw the drink into Artest face after he had grabbed the guy he thought threw the first cup.

Lord Helmet
12-12-2004, 11:58 PM
I dunno I think Ben Wallace.He overeacted too much.Shoot your FT's please.I'm so sick of talking about the fight.I wish we could go back in time and let the Pistons win so they don't have to instigate a riot.Stern has done nothing to punish the Pistons which really pisses me off.Wow a few players get 5-6 games.There back in a week at most and we have to wait 1 month and a half.Well its over and as the weeks go by there is less and less talk about it.Hey maybe in June we will all watch it again and laugh :whoknows:

Roy Munson
12-13-2004, 01:17 AM
I'm going to blame Rick Carlisle because if he'd taken Artest out of the game with a 15 point lead and under a minute to play, none of it would have happened.

Peck
12-13-2004, 01:42 AM
I have to speak up about blaming Rick Carlisle. I think that's absurd. He shouldn't be expected to pull Ron out of any game in which we gain a big lead that we've only had for a few minutes at best. If we had had the game wrapped up for 5 minutes already I might begin to agree, but it wasn't too long ago that we were only up 5. Considering the opposition, I don't blame leaving one of your best players in to make sure nothing (in game) goes wrong and causes a fluke loss. Rick was probably (and justly) thinking of injuries when he started sitting the starters, and of Ron, JO, and Croshere, we can all agree Ron is the absolute least likely to get injuried in those final 2 minutes.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet big money that that was Rick's thinking in pulling certain stars and not others, and that's EASILY the norm around the league for head coaches when it comes to deciding who to start sitting. I think it's a giant stretch to put this on him in any way. Not even Rick, having a guy like Ron here, should be honestly expected to think "Gee, if I don't pull him soon, he might start a riot, I better get him out" (you know what I mean).

Secondly, you bring up Ron 'beginning to lose it at half-time'. So Rick was watching him be interviewed by Jim Gray, first of all? No, he's heading to the locker room. And second and more importantly here, Ron not being happy with the refs is NOT an indicator of him "losing it". Never has been IMO.

IMO this is a riduculous stretch in an attempt to find someone to blame, if only partially. Without the riot, no one would even BEGIN to think about this (Rick being wrong to leave Ron in).

Crazy.

I just went back to the tape & checked we were up 12 with 4 min. to go in the game & they never got any closer, in fact they went further down. A full three min. passed before the incident occured. There were two timeouts between then & at right around the 1 min. to go mark when we are up 15 he pulls J.O. & Cro out of the game. The game was over.

Now having said all of that I want to maybe clarify my point. If Rick would have taken him out this would never have happened? Yes or No? Has Ron in the past out of frustration ever done anything that might be considered not normal behavior? Yes or no? Did Rick have a clear view of Ron being put into the goal post by Ben Wallace? Yes or No?

I talked myself out of blaming Carlisle & fell back on an oldy but a goody for me. I blamed Walsh because he should have been doing everything in his power from the last game of the E.C. finals last season to move Ron on. If it meant not getting fair value then that's what it meant.

But that's an overall issue. That particular night I put most of the blame on the refs. The one thing that is not being talked about & has (to the best of my knowledge) never been talked about is why did they let Ben Wallace use his *** to knock Ron into the goal post? It was not intentional IMO, but it was a foul. But even ignoring that, they did a horrid job of controling that scene. Ben Wallace was allowed to roam the floor & throw things at Ron. They had benches that kept getting emptied because they did not put an end to all of this.

At this point in time I'm almost past blaming Artest because he has become a cartoon figure for how bad he reacts to things.

Bball
12-13-2004, 02:58 AM
If this was a stand alone incident I probably don't blame Artest all that much. The problem is that Artest had used up his "benefit of the doubt' cards long ago. He was the last player in the NBA that could respond to any provocation by the fans in almost any way without a harsh penalty.

There's just so much blame to go around it is hard to know where to start in assigning levels of blame. Artest simply was the easiest target for the league. He was in the worst of the melee and he already had a reputation as a live wire....

I do think you have to give Wallace a larger share of the blame than he's gotten so far. He's the one that over-reacted and started the whole situation. He might've had no intention of starting a riot but he lost control (or acted outside of the norms of behavior whether he planned it or not) and lit a sparkler in a roomful of gunpowder. Maybe 1000 times before it fizzles out and nothing much comes of it but on this time it 'took' and exploded.

This is where the failure of security and the officials comes into play. Why wasn't BWallace ejected immediately and gotten off the floor? He never should've been out there that long. The fact that he was actually incited the fans more. Possibly giving them some sense that the refs 'agreed' or sympathzed with Wallace. At this point security should've started taking position and making their presence known to deter any fans thinking about somehow joining the fray. They obviously did not... where were they... already moved to traffic flow positions?

And then you get to the cup thrower. A lot of balls had to be dropped and mistakes made before he becomes a factor. But they were dropped and so he tosses a cup on Artest. Now, the poster child for Strange Bad Boy of the NBA goes into his act. I really do wonder just how many players would've reacted any differently? But again, Artest is the LAST guy that can think about doing anything of that nature with any hope of it being downplayed.

Of course, we can come back to security here because at that position you'd think security would already have the guy before Artest could get to him.

The fans then made it all worse. Was SJax coming to beat up Piston fans or was he coming to Artest's aid and then got assaulted himself? I'm sure the cameras don't tell the whole story because in a mass hysterical environment like that who is to say what pieces each person has inputed into their minds to act as they do? We just can't know what all was said and done that the mics and cameras missed.

There is a lot of blame to go around and I am not sure that it has been allocated properly. I think you can justify Artest's suspension based on his history, but I don't think you can justify it on this one act taken by itself (due to the totality of the circumstances). But I understand Stern cracking down on Artest. I could understand the PA feeling it was too harsh as well.

OTOH, JO and SJax were way over the top IMHO. 10-15 games would be considered serious punishment and meet precedent... and stay closer in line with BWallace's meager 6 game suspension.

I think the Piston organization and fans got off very easy and some wrong messages sent. Especially in light of the Pacer punishments. I don't think the league's rulings show much balance or proper assignment in the sharing of blame. Either the Pacers' need lightened or the Pistons' needed stiffened.

--
UB... I have a hard time naming any one party as most responsible for what happened at the Palace. It was a series of events that kept being mishandled that ended up conspiring into this. Perhaps the real answer is the league itself is to blame?

-Bball

waterjater
12-13-2004, 03:35 AM
Ben for lighting the match and inciting the crowd!

Ron for escalating it vs. walking away with 45 seconds to go after dismantling the Pistons.

Bball
12-13-2004, 04:43 AM
Ben for lighting the match and inciting the crowd!

Ron for escalating it vs. walking away with 45 seconds to go after dismantling the Pistons.

Damn... That about sums it up. I wish I could've been that concise.

-Bball

DisplacedKnick
12-13-2004, 07:18 AM
I didn't see the game itself so keep that in mind, but IMO there were two transgressions that should NEVER happen under ANY circumstances. I give each of them 50-50 blame.

1 - A fan should NEVER, under any circumstances, throw something onto the court.

2 - A player should NEVER, under any circumstances, go into the stands. I don't care if the fan did throw a chair - that's what security is for.

So I give it 50-50 to Green and Artest.

Ben Wallace way overreacted to the foul but players overreact to stuff all the time. Can't comment on the escalating Artes-Wallace "let's beat on each other" game situation.

Hicks
12-13-2004, 08:38 AM
I just went back to the tape & checked we were up 12 with 4 min. to go in the game & they never got any closer, in fact they went further down. A full three min. passed before the incident occured. There were two timeouts between then & at right around the 1 min. to go mark when we are up 15 he pulls J.O. & Cro out of the game. The game was over. You get this one. I thought it was closer to 2 min. left. Sounds like the game was at hand. With that said, I still stand by what I said about how you can't honestly expect Rick to think "Hmm, Ron go nuts/start a riot, better get him out". No way. Besides, ask yourself this, did YOU even think, with 1min left "What's Ron doing in there? He's gonna do something crazy?" I'll believe you if you say yes to the first question, but the 2nd? I'd be skeptical at best.


Now having said all of that I want to maybe clarify my point. If Rick would have taken him out this would never have happened? Yes or No? No, but that's only as relavant as saying "Would this have happened if he'd not played Ron after half time?". It just doesn't carry weight with me. What if Rick had given him a DNP-CD? No riot! Woohoo! :laugh:


Has Ron in the past out of frustration ever done anything that might be considered not normal behavior? Yes or no? Not in a game we were up big. For example he broke the camera after we lost by double-digits. He usually did most of his breaking-of-things when we were losing, or when he was having a bad game. We were up by double-digits, and he played a good game.


Did Rick have a clear view of Ron being put into the goal post by Ben Wallace? Yes or No? Yes, but I don't think anyone can honestly, in just a few moments no less, discern from that that a riot (or some other ugly thing) is about to break out. It's not like Ron even gave a flagrant on the other end. Ben DID clearly overreact.


I talked myself out of blaming Carlisle & fell back on an oldy but a goody for me. I blamed Walsh because he should have been doing everything in his power from the last game of the E.C. finals last season to move Ron on. If it meant not getting fair value then that's what it meant. I think that's a stretch as well because of all the things, on my darker days think of Ron, that I'd imagine he would do to hurt this team, being a big player in the worst "riot" in NBA history would never have come up on my radar, because it's so unheard of (if not historically, then certainly in the last decade or so), so I can't expect Walsh to think this was going to happen either.

From what I've heard, they did try to move him a lot, but, as basketball GMs, can you honestly blame them for not settling for a huge drop in value as the return player? Especially since this was before he wanted to retire, and later got mixed up in this riot? I don't.


But that's an overall issue. That particular night I put most of the blame on the refs. ... they did a horrid job of controling that scene. Ben Wallace was allowed to roam the floor & throw things at Ron. They had benches that kept getting emptied because they did not put an end to all of this. I COMPLETELY agree with this. The referees did a HORRIBLE job at handling this. I agree that if Joey Crawford (or Steve Javie) were there, Ben gets tossed immediately, the benches are told to sit their asses down, and this all breaks up before a cup is thrown. I think this was one of the critical mistakes of this whole thing.

stipo
12-13-2004, 08:42 AM
Ah, you're ready to move on from the incident. I'm ready to move on from the failed "Ron Artest Era". I think that's our big difference.

.

One of those things is under our control, the other is under Larry and Donnies' control. I have officially moved on. I can't think of anything new that I could possibly say about the incident. I'm done with it. :meditate:

Peck
12-13-2004, 08:55 AM
Hicks wrote:

You get this one. I thought it was closer to 2 min. left. Sounds like the game was at hand. With that said, I still stand by what I said about how you can't honestly expect Rick to think "Hmm, Ron go nuts/start a riot, better get him out". No way. Besides, ask yourself this, did YOU even think, with 1min left "What's Ron doing in there? He's gonna do something crazy?" I'll believe you if you say yes to the first question, but the 2nd? I'd be skeptical at best

I know there is no way to prove this one way or the other but I told my wife & son at the half that that interview really bothered me. Now I will give you that Rick didn't hear that interview so that is a moot point. However, again with no proof, the min. I saw Ron laying under the goalpost I new there was going to be a problem. No way did I think it would be this big of a problem, but I knew Ron was already a powderkeg from the half & when he didn't get right up & run down the court to play defense that something was going to happen.

If Ben doesn't plant his *** on under the board does anything happen? Nope, we win Ron goes home & that's that.

But like I said, I just sort of give some of this to Rick. But mainly blame the refs. on this one getting out of hand.

beast23
12-13-2004, 11:37 AM
Sorry, Peck. I don't buy that one. I don't blame Carlisle at all.

Through the years, it seems as though an "unwritten protocol" has been established in pulling your best players from the floor. The leading team usually doesn't do so until the opponent more or less cries "uncle".

Detroit still had its top players in the game.

Carlisle would not have pulled all of his starters until Detroit had done so as well.

Although, I would be the first to admit that if I were to pull anyone from the game I probably would have started with my most volatile players first.

From my perspective, my vote goes to the Green and the fans.

The order of events.

1. Artest foul.
2. Wallace over-reaction.
3. Ref's failure to rid premises of Wallace.
4. Artest lying prone on the scorer's table.
5. Ref's failur to rid premises of Wallace, allowing Wallace to throw towel and attempt to get to Artest.
6. Fan throws cup.
7. Security's failure to maintain barrier.
8. Artest goes into crowd and grabs (wrong) fan.
9. Fan begins beating Artest in the back of the head.
10. All hell breaks loose.

Artest had not struck the fan. He was in his face, but had not thrown a punch.

Had the fans merely restrained Artest, and would not have begun hitting him, I think everything else could have been stopped.

I think that was the last possible opportunity before the whole thing broke down to the point of no return.

Fool
12-13-2004, 11:53 AM
Blaming sucks.

Honeslty, I can't blame the refs. Yeah, maybe they were handling it poorly but none of the players were beating on each other so they weren't doing that bad a job.

I can't blame the coaches. Sure most starters are pulled for blowouts but there are plenty of times were a few stay out there for some reason or another and usually players are pulled to rest for the next game not to keep from fighting (tho there are instances of both).

I can't argue with blaming anyone who was directly involved however as they are always responsible for their own actions.

But blaming gets tiring. I don't care to accuse or defend and I apologize for doing either in the past. Just play and entertain, I've got work to do and time off to enjoy.

Grant
12-13-2004, 12:12 PM
It was the "perfect storm" of riots. The reason this stuff doesn't happen every day is that so many variables have to line up.

If I had to go with one guy, I would say John Green. He was the only party that was not reacting to a physical altercation

With Wallace/Artest/Jackson you can say they were wrong, but you can understand where they were coming from even if you disagree. Maybe they overreacted but Mr. Green was completely unprovoked.

Obviously, the situation could have been diffused at several different points

foulplay
12-13-2004, 01:30 PM
Ben Wallace without a doubt. Not for his technical foul on Artest, but for the 2 minutes or so that he had to be restained. For throwing the towel at Ron. Ben incited the whole thing with his behavior after the technical.

LAPacer
12-13-2004, 01:53 PM
I think the incident could have been avoided if many people acted in a better way. So My opinion of who was the most wrong is as follows:
1.) Green - throwing a cup
2.) Crazy Fans - attacking the pacers
3.) Lack of Security - Keeping the fans away from players
4.) Artest - Going into the stands
5.) Wallace - pushing then throwing towel. Wallace and Kobe are now tied for my most hated list
6.) Refs - Should have kicked wallace off the court

ChicagoJ
12-13-2004, 04:29 PM
Grant makes an excellent point. At no time was John Green provoked. He's the bystander that throws himself into the action. Inexcusable.

However, I mostly blame the officials, this altercation was still lingering some two or three minutes after it started. Sure there was no longer any real fighting, and that just makes it even more inexcusable that it hadn't been fully cleaned up.

I also blame someone not mentioned anywhere else, the chucklehead who decided the put the replay on the center scoreboard before the officials had cleaned up the mess, and basically while Ben is throwing that towel at Ron.

I think there's something to be said for the notion that Ben's actions emboldened the fans.

But again, the officials had an opportunity to get it under control sooner. Ben was still on the court after the brawl concluded. When security was nowhere to be found, should have been dragging Ben's *** to the lockerroom, and they weren't even doing that.

Trace
12-13-2004, 04:45 PM
Okay, before I read all the other responses and get biased I'll answer.

Ron Artest is most responsible. With one simple decision he could have avoided the whole thing. He had more to gain and more to lose than any of the fans, (an NBA title, a year's pay, and possibly his entire career) so he should have exercised better judgement.

Now I'll read everyone else's responses....