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View Full Version : 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas



vnzla81
12-06-2012, 02:25 PM
I agree he was garbage last night, same old DC, can't pass or create for others and sucks on D.




3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again

Letís just say Darren Collison didnít do anything in Los Angeles to convince Rick Carlisle that it was a bad idea to give away the point guardís starting job.

A moment early in the fourth quarter illustrated why the Mavs canít trust Collison to run their team. His sloppy, careless pass was easily intercepted by Matt Barnes, leading to a fast-break opportunity for the Clippers that Barnes finished with a layup.

Carlisle responded by calling a timeout. The reason he wanted the break was to bench Collison, who was replaced by Dominique Jones with the Mavs trailing by 21 points.

Collison got back off the bench for garbage time. He committed another turnover on his first possession after checking back into the game.

Collison padded his point total during garbage time, but his line in the box score was still butt ugly: eight points, two assists, two rebounds, four fouls and five turnovers in 18 minutes. The Mavs were outscored by 24 with him on the floor, the worst plus-minus of any player.

By contrast, Fisher was the only Mav who finished with a positive plus-minus. Dallas outscored the Clippers by two points in Fisherís 25 minutes, with the 38-year-old point guard scoring 15 points on 5-of-11 shooting.

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=dallasmavericks&id=4693073&city=dallas

Major Cold
12-06-2012, 04:30 PM
I agree he was garbage last night, same old DC, can't pass or create for others and sucks on D.



http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=dallasmavericks&id=4693073&city=dallas

I would still trade DJ for him.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 04:51 PM
Honestly, the best thing that could happen for DC is for Nowitzki to get healthy.

ilive4sports
12-06-2012, 04:55 PM
Honestly, the best thing that could happen for DC is for Nowitzki to get healthy.
Wouldn't that be the best thing for any player on Dallas period?

billbradley
12-06-2012, 04:56 PM
I would still trade DJ for him.

Eh, I won't say that until DJ leads a fast break, gets to the cup, jumps in the air and throws the ball away three times in a game.

Pace Maker
12-06-2012, 05:33 PM
looks like his ceiling is a good backup PG, which really isn't all that bad considering his height.

I'll always respect him for being a class act and trying his best at the very least.

AesopRockOn
12-06-2012, 05:36 PM
Wouldn't that be the best thing for any player on Dallas period?

Not all. Vince Carter won't be able to pretend his wrist is injured after missing a contested jumper if Dirk is taking his shots away.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 05:40 PM
Wouldn't that be the best thing for any player on Dallas period?

True, but I think the pick and roll action of DC and Nowitzki with OJ on the weakside is their best offensive set. Unless of course they've decided that they want Mayo long-term and will are okay with Fisher running the ball up the court, giving it up to Mayo or Dirk, then running the baseline from corner to corner.

xIndyFan
12-06-2012, 05:55 PM
I would still trade DJ for him.

Seriously, DJ and a 2nd for DC.

beast23
12-06-2012, 06:26 PM
I would still trade DJ for him.
Big deal. I would trade them both, together, plus a second round draft choice, for Jarrett Jack.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 06:34 PM
I would still trade DJ for him.

I would trade Mahinmi and DJ for him and I am a DC hater :cool2:

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 06:59 PM
Even Reggie is commenting on this.


@ReggieMillerTNT: It's never good when you have to go and sign a 38yr old point guard (Fisher) to replace your 25yr old (Collison).

bunt
12-06-2012, 07:03 PM
I would trade Mahinmi and DJ for him and I am a DC hater :cool2:

Of course you'd trade one of the better backup centers in the league for a guy being replaced by Derek Fisher and Dominique Jones. Brilliant.

Major Cold
12-06-2012, 07:31 PM
Big deal. I would trade them both, together, plus a second round draft choice, for Jarrett Jack.
GSWs are not trading their insurance on Curry's gank ankle.

beast23
12-06-2012, 07:57 PM
GSWs are not trading their insurance on Curry's gank ankle.
True. I'm just making a statement regarding how little I value Collison AND DJ..... or how much I'd welcome Jack back, depending on one's POV.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 08:00 PM
I rather get Calderon, a second round pick plus DJ for him can probably do it.

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 08:52 PM
The problem here is that Collison is NOT a PG. I've never seen so many people wrong. Even Dallas thought he was a PG. He is a 6 foot nothing SG. He can dribble some, yes. He should be coming off the bench and would have been fantastic next to Lance Stephenson who could guard the other SG. Collison is a very good player, just not a PG. Finally more people are learning that. Whew...

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 08:54 PM
Of course you'd trade one of the better backup centers in the league for a guy being replaced by Derek Fisher and Dominique Jones. Brilliant.

Ian is a valuable player. For the Pacers, he may be more valuable than Collison as long as Paul George stays aggressive. Collison filled a need last year making tough baskets. That is where we might miss him. Paul needs to step into that role fully or we will miss Darren in the playoffs.

McKeyFan
12-06-2012, 09:04 PM
Well, there's the difference between Carlisle and Vogel. It took Rick a month to figure out that Collison is fool's gold. It took Vogel almost a year.

Hopefully, that's just experience, and Frank will get better.

CJ Jones
12-06-2012, 09:22 PM
I would trade Mahinmi and DJ for him and I am a DC hater :cool2:

Ian's killing it lately, he's playing like he did in preseason. Why are you still down on him? If he continues playing like this he's a bargain.

Anthem
12-06-2012, 09:28 PM
Well, there's the difference between Carlisle and Vogel. It took Rick a month to figure out that Collison is fool's gold. It took Vogel almost a year.

Hopefully, that's just experience, and Frank will get better.
Actually, I'm going the other way on this. Carlisle is famous for maximizing his players, yet Vogel got far more out of Collision than Carlisle did.

McKeyFan
12-06-2012, 09:33 PM
Actually, I'm going the other way on this. Carlisle is famous for maximizing his players, yet Vogel got far more out of Collision than Carlisle did.
Carlisle wanted him to actually play like a point guard.

purdue101
12-06-2012, 09:34 PM
I would trade Mahinmi and DJ for him and I am a DC hater :cool2:

Yes, Mahinmi struggled early on, but he's been very good lately and worth the money. I don't question his annual salary of $4M, I question the risk tied to the length of the contract, but if he continues to earn it, who cares. He may even improve and outplay the contract.

Mareese Speights averaged similar numbers and received $4.2M per year. Robin Lopez received almost $5M per year after averaging 5pts 3 boards. He's having a great year this year, but he's getting starters mins - per 36 they are spot on to Mahinmi. Mozgov, Joel Anthony, McRoberts, Hawes, Koufos, Jordan Hill, etc. All these guys are averaging 3-7PPG and 3-5RPG and all are making $3-7M/year. Bigs always get paid more, always have, always will. The alternative is Joel Freeland or Lou Amundson as your backup C. You have to admit, Mahinmi has been pretty good the last 5 games. His defense is well above average.

I agree with you on DJ (he's been terrible) and Green. I don't necessarily believe Green is overpaid league-wise (similar 7-10 PPG backup wings are making 3-6M/year), but he is overpaid for our team when you consider the emergence of Lance & Young. I would welcome a trade when Danny returns (Lance takes the backup SG spot). An ideal trade would have DJ/Green going out for a good backup PG who can score - Calderon, JJ Barea, Luke Ridenour, DC come to mind.

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 09:38 PM
Vogel definitely got more out of Collison. But JOb got more out of Murphy. All this means is that better coaches don't let bad players continue starting.

LoneGranger33
12-06-2012, 09:41 PM
It's easy to rag on a guy that's had a couple awful games (or weeks, as may be the case), but on the whole his stats still compare favorably with George Hill's:

Collison: 12.1 PPG (.435 FG% / .318 3P%), 6.1 APG (2.5 TO), 2.2 RPG
Hill: 14.6 PPG (.406 FG% / .326 3P%), 5.2 APG (1.8 TO), 3.9 RPG

The Mavericks are 8-10 and the Pacers are 10-9. Both teams are missing their top players and it's debatable whose "supporting cast" is better. (I'd personally take the Pacers over the Mavs, probably even with Nowitzki, but that's just me). Now, I'm not saying I'd prefer DC (I wouldn't) or that George Hill has played poorly (he hasn't), but to call Collison "garbage" is clearly overstating the case. In the two seasons I've seen him play, he's proven two things to me: 1) he has talent, and 2) he's terribly inconsistent. He's playing ****** now, but he was playing pretty good at the beginning of the year - who's to say which is "the true Darren Collison"?

McKeyFan
12-06-2012, 09:50 PM
It's easy to rag on a guy that's had a couple awful games (or weeks, as may be the case), but on the whole his stats still compare favorably with George Hill's:

Collison: 12.1 PPG (.435 FG% / .318 3P%), 6.1 APG (2.5 TO), 2.2 RPG
Hill: 14.6 PPG (.406 FG% / .326 3P%), 5.2 APG (1.8 TO), 3.9 RPG

The Mavericks are 8-10 and the Pacers are 10-9. Both teams are missing their top players and it's debatable whose "supporting cast" is better. (I'd personally take the Pacers over the Mavs, probably even with Nowitzki, but that's just me). Now, I'm not saying I'd prefer DC (I wouldn't) or that George Hill has played poorly (he hasn't), but to call Collison "garbage" is clearly overstating the case. In the two seasons I've seen him play, he's proven two things to me: 1) he has talent, and 2) he's terribly inconsistent. He's playing ****** now, but he was playing pretty good at the beginning of the year - who's to say which is "the true Darren Collison"?
He's definitely not garbage. But I agree with B&G that he is a small shooting guard. If you think he's going to perform point guard duties, you will be greatly disappointed. I'd take him as a spark off the bench.

LoneGranger33
12-06-2012, 09:59 PM
He's definitely not garbage. But I agree with B&G that he is a small shooting guard. If you think he's going to perform point guard duties, you will be greatly disappointed. I'd take him as a spark off the bench.

You're probably right, but it's a new system and (mostly) new teammates for DC. A good stew takes time.

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 10:02 PM
He's definitely not garbage. But I agree with B&G that he is a small shooting guard. If you think he's going to perform point guard duties, you will be greatly disappointed. I'd take him as a spark off the bench.

Yes, he's actually a very good spark off the bench. He showed that against Miami and became a good weapon. But that's really all he is. He's like Vinnie Johnson back in the day in Detroit. He can heat up. He's not much different than having a Nate Robinson coming off the bench. But neither is a good starting PG. They are explosive scorers, short in stature. Neither make their team mates better and neither have that great court awareness you want in a PG.

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 10:03 PM
You're probably right, but it's a new system and (mostly) new teammates for DC. A good stew takes time.

Vogel had that on simmer for a long time. It never tasted good enough and that's why George Hill starts for the Pacers.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 10:32 PM
Yes, Mahinmi struggled early on, but he's been very good lately and worth the money. I don't question his annual salary of $4M, I question the risk tied to the length of the contract, but if he continues to earn it, who cares. He may even improve and outplay the contract.

Mareese Speights averaged similar numbers and received $4.2M per year. Robin Lopez received almost $5M per year after averaging 5pts 3 boards. He's having a great year this year, but he's getting starters mins - per 36 they are spot on to Mahinmi. Mozgov, Joel Anthony, McRoberts, Hawes, Koufos, Jordan Hill, etc. All these guys are averaging 3-7PPG and 3-5RPG and all are making $3-7M/year. Bigs always get paid more, always have, always will. The alternative is Joel Freeland or Lou Amundson as your backup C. You have to admit, Mahinmi has been pretty good the last 5 games. His defense is well above average.

I agree with you on DJ (he's been terrible) and Green. I don't necessarily believe Green is overpaid league-wise (similar 7-10 PPG backup wings are making 3-6M/year), but he is overpaid for our team when you consider the emergence of Lance & Young. I would welcome a trade when Danny returns (Lance takes the backup SG spot). An ideal trade would have DJ/Green going out for a good backup PG who can score - Calderon, JJ Barea, Luke Ridenour, DC come to mind.

I like Mahinmi the person but I don't like the player, his contract is still too big for my liking.

By the way Lopez average right now is 12 and 5 do I think Mahinmi can average that much in Roy's place? Hell no.

Ace E.Anderson
12-06-2012, 10:36 PM
I like Mahinmi the person but I don't like the player, his contract is still too big for my liking.

Out of curiosity...How much less do you expect a near 7ft, long and athletic b/u C to realistically make?

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 10:42 PM
Out of curiosity...How much less do you expect a near 7ft, long and athletic b/u C to realistically make?

For a guy like Ian not much, he should get the same type of contract the Pacers gave Solo, they are pretty similar.

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 10:45 PM
For a guy like Ian not much, he should get the same type of contract the Pacers gave Solo, they are pretty similar.

Have to break from you on this one. Ian is a lot better than Solo. Solo shouldn't be in the league. Ian is a better backup C than Lou.

Edit: Augustin is paid almost as much as Ian. That makes Ian a bargain.

D-BONE
12-06-2012, 10:48 PM
Ian's the only guy of the three big offseason acquisitions who's meeting expectations for me. I don't know if you can cure the kind of butter fingers he's got. But, if so, he could actually be a really nice player.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 10:50 PM
Have to break from you on this one. Ian is a lot better than Solo. Solo shouldn't be in the league. Ian is a better backup C than Lou.

Neither one of those guys have the capability to start or replace Roy in case he gets hurt, there is a reason why West plays center at time, yes Ian is a bit better than those guys but he is still not worth 4mil a year.

Just so you know Lopez got 3 and 15 and he is capable of replacing any center in the league while Ian can't do that.

purdue101
12-06-2012, 10:51 PM
I like Mahinmi the person but I don't like the player, his contract is still too big for my liking.

By the way Lopez average right now is 12 and 5 do I think Mahinmi can average that much in Roy's place? Hell no.

I'm aware of Lopez's current production, which is why I referenced it (did you not read my post?) Remember though, he is getting starter minutes for the 4th worst team in the league. When Mahinmi started for Dallas, he actually averaged more rebounds (6 per game). His points were only 7 per game, however he took less shots then Lopez does now (their FG% was identical). So yes, he likely could average the same numbers for a terrible team

Mahinmi is giving us exactly what $4M big men are worth in the NBA - the stats and salaries are facts. I just think your expectations are slightly high. Prime example - Taj Gibson is giving Chicago 6 and 4 off the bench and just got $8M/year.

Also, small sample, but in the 1 game Mahinmi did play starter minutes, he gave us 11 and 6.

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 10:57 PM
Neither one of those guys have the capability to start or replace Roy in case he gets hurt, there is a reason why West plays center at time, yes Ian is a bit better than those guys but he is still not worth 4mil a year.

Just so you know Lopez got 3 and 15 and he is capable of replacing any center in the league while Ian can't do that.

He's probably a little overpaid, but you have to give something for size...and if they have any BBall IQ at all...which he has a little, they get a minimum of 3M. I'm not sure you get a guy like Ian for much less. Considering our past in terms of overpaying players, he's still a bargain. IIRC, Murphy made over 11M at one point. JO in a suit was making well over 20M. JBender made a mint on potential. I say we're doing pretty good.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 10:58 PM
I'm aware of Lopez's current production, which is why I referenced it (did you not read my post?) Remember though, he is getting starter minutes for the 4th worst team in the league. When Mahinmi started for Dallas, he actually averaged more rebounds (6 per game). His points were only 7 per game, however he took less shots then Lopez does now (there FG% was identical). So yes, he likely could average the same numbers for a terrible team

Mahinmi is giving us exactly what $4M big men are worth in the NBA - the stats and salaries are facts. I just think your expectations are slightly high. Prime example - Taj Gibson is giving Chicago 6 and 4 off the bench and just got $8M/year.

My expectations are high because I can come up with a lot of cheap backup centers that can produce the same Ian is producing right now and I'm sorry I don't buy the Ian starting thing, he is one of those players incapable of staying on the floor for long, he has the Nate Robinson thing in him good for some minutes but more than that he is more bad than good.

Pacerized
12-06-2012, 11:04 PM
Ian's killing it lately, he's playing like he did in preseason. Why are you still down on him? If he continues playing like this he's a bargain.

What's he had 2 good games, 2 decent games and 14 bad games? I'll admit that he's played better lately but let's not forget his complete work to date as a Pacer.

purdue101
12-06-2012, 11:04 PM
My expectations are high because I can come up with a lot of cheap backup centers that can produce the same Ian is producing right now and I'm sorry I don't buy the Ian starting thing, he is one of those players incapable of staying on the floor for long, he has the Nate Robinson thing in him good for some minutes but more than that he is more bad than good.

Ok then - who? Give me "lots" of backup centers playing 15mpg +, not on rookie deals, who average similar numbers (PPG, RPG, PER and good defense) and get paid drastically less.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 11:06 PM
What's he had 2 good games, 2 decent games and 14 bad games? I'll admit that he's played better lately but let's not forget his complete work to date as a Pacer.

I think is about 3 good games so far, maybe more if you want to count preseason.

purdue101
12-06-2012, 11:10 PM
Ok then - who? Give me "lots" of backup centers playing 15mpg +, not on rookie deals, who average similar numbers (PPG, RPG, PER and good defense) and get paid drastically less.

I got JO - that's about it.

purdue101
12-06-2012, 11:20 PM
I got JO - that's about it.

Two - Brandon Wright is playing well too

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 11:32 PM
Ok then - who? Give me "lots" of backup centers playing 15mpg +, not on rookie deals, who average similar numbers (PPG, RPG, PER and good defense) and get paid drastically less.

Here is a list of guys that I can come up with:

Reggie Evans 1.3mil a year, pretty much an steal at that price.

Andray B 800k

Kaman, 8mil for one year.

Brand, 2.1mil


Landry 4mil

Turiaf, 1.1mil

Ryan Hollins 1.1mil.

Jordan Hil 3.5mil


Dalembert 6.7mil for one year.



Greg Stiemsma, 2.5mil.

Lou, 1mil.


Lopez 5mil.

Jason Smith, 2.5mil

Camby 4mil

Rasheed Wallace 1.3mil

Kurt Thomas 1.3mil

Nick Collison 2.9mil

Thabeet 800k

Hawes 6.5 for two years.

Kwame 3mil

JO 1.3mil

This are just some examples but I can keep going, the point is that there was not reason to overpay for Ian.

Note: I'm not looking at their production now but I believe that in the same position as Ian a lot of them can produce the same for less(for those that make less).

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 11:32 PM
I guess I don't understand what a backup center is supposed to be averaging. In 15 minutes per he's averaging 5 points, 3.5 boards, and 1 block per game. He does foul too much but he also gets in there and alters a lot of shots. And frankly Ian creates less contact than Hibbert on most of the fouls he is called for. Just watch him, he plays good PnR defense and protects the rim.

And he's doing it playing alongside defensive savants DJ Augustin, Gerald Green, Tyler Hansbrough, and David West.

Anthem
12-06-2012, 11:35 PM
[Ian] should get the same type of contract the Pacers gave Solo, they are pretty similar.
Dude, those two guys aren't similar NOW, and Solo's a much better basketball player today than he was with the Pacers.

aamcguy
12-06-2012, 11:51 PM
Here is a list of guys that I can come up with:

Reggie Evans 1.3mil a year, pretty much an steal at that price.
Andray B 800k **
Brand, 2.1mil **
Turiaf, 1.1mil
Ryan Hollins 1.1mil.
Jordan Hil 3.5mil
Greg Stiemsma, 2.5mil.
Jason Smith, 2.5mil
Camby 4mil
Rasheed Wallace 1.3mil
Kurt Thomas 1.3mil
Nick Collison 2.9mil
Thabeet 800k
Kwame 3mil
JO 1.3mil

Guys I moved because they don't fit:
Kaman, 8mil for one year. REason: 4 mil != 8 mil
Landry 4mil Reason: Not a center.
Dalembert 6.7mil for one year. Reason: 4 mil != 6.7 mil
Lou, 1mil. Reason: Not a center
Lopez 5mil. Reason: 5 mil != 4 mil
Hawes 6.5 for two years. Reason: 6.5 mil != 4 mil

This are just some examples but I can keep going, the point is that there was not reason to overpay for Ian.

I would prefer you keep going, I'm going to edit your post and move the guys that don't fit the criteria and asterisk the guys that fit because they got claimed off of waivers.

I didn't move the guyswhose production didn't match up to Ian's, but if I did there would have been only a few guys left in your original list. And if you also require that they need to have the same defensive presence as Ian it goes down further. And let's not pretend that Indiana is a hot ticket for veteran guys that are on their last legs. They want to be on teams where they can use their veteran awareness to make up for their lack of mobility utiltizing space that only superstars can create. Not every player is available to every team.

rock747
12-06-2012, 11:59 PM
I would still trade DJ for him.
Was going to say this. DC would probably be cool with coming here and playing backup at this point.

purdue101
12-07-2012, 12:01 AM
Here is a list of guys that I can come up with:

Reggie Evans 1.3mil a year, pretty much an steal at that price.

Andray B 800k

Kaman, 8mil for one year.

Brand, 2.1mil


Landry 4mil

Turiaf, 1.1mil

Ryan Hollins 1.1mil.

Jordan Hil 3.5mil


Dalembert 6.7mil for one year.



Greg Stiemsma, 2.5mil.

Lou, 1mil.


Lopez 5mil.

Jason Smith, 2.5mil

Camby 4mil

Rasheed Wallace 1.3mil

Kurt Thomas 1.3mil

Nick Collison 2.9mil

Thabeet 800k

Hawes 6.5 for two years.

Kwame 3mil

JO 1.3mil

This are just some examples but I can keep going, the point is that there was not reason to overpay for Ian.

Note: I'm not looking at their production now but I believe that in the same position as Ian a lot of them can produce the same for less(for those that make less).

Nice try Vnzla - Stiemsma, Lou, Hollins, Kwame, Kurt Thomas, Turiaf, Thabeet, and Camby are awful this year - far inferior players and the stats back that up. Wallace and Evans are ring chasing vets in NY/BKY and would never sign in Indy - PF's too. Landry is a PF (we could never play him as a C). Collison makes 2.9M, but remember, he got a huge balloon payment in year 1 to redo his deal, so the average per year of the deal is around $5M (proves my point). Hawes (proves my point). Jordan Hill (proves my point). Dalembert (proves my point). I agree with JO and Jason Smith. Brand and AB came off amnesty (no one on the other side negotiating their price). Nice try though.

Taj - 6 & 5 - $8M
Hawes - 7 & 5 - $6.5M
Amir J - 7 & 5 - $6.5M
Dalembert - 6 & 5 - $6M
Collison - 6 & 4 - $5M (Average w/ balloon payment)
Speights - 6 & 5 - $4.2M
Mahinmi - 5 & 4 - $4M
Hill - 6 & 5 - $3.5M
Mozgov - 4 & 5 - $3.1M
McRoberts - 4 & 4 - $3M

When looking at blocks/min, Mahinmi is atop this list. Mahinmi is right where he should be salary wise.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 12:03 AM
I would prefer you keep going, I'm going to edit your post and move the guys that don't fit the criteria and asterisk the guys that fit because they got claimed off of waivers.

I didn't move the guyswhose production didn't match up to Ian's, but if I did there would have been only a few guys left in your original list. And if you also require that they need to have the same defensive presence as Ian it goes down further. And let's not pretend that Indiana is a hot ticket for veteran guys that are on their last legs. They want to be on teams where they can use their veteran awareness to make up for their lack of mobility utiltizing space that only superstars can create. Not every player is available to every team.

And what stopped the Pacers for claiming those guys other than themself? Brand, Scola and Andray would have been way better than Ian, yes two of them are not "true centers" but who cares? by the way I almost forgot about Kmart, he is a free agent and wants to sign for the minimum with anybody.

purdue101
12-07-2012, 12:12 AM
And what stopped the Pacers for claiming those guys other than themself? Brand, Scola and Andray would have been way better than Ian, yes two of them are not "true centers" but who cares? by the way I almost forgot about Kmart, he is a free agent and wants to sign for the minimum with anybody.

I disagree, next to Hansbrough, we need a defensive/rebounding center - these guys are PF's. I liked Scola and Brand though if we moved Hansbrough. Stay away from AB.

aamcguy
12-07-2012, 12:12 AM
And what stopped the Pacers for claiming those guys other than themself? Brand, Scola and Andray would have been way better than Ian, yes two of them are not "true centers" but who cares? by the way I almost forgot about Kmart, he is a free agent and wants to sign for the minimum with anybody.

That's why I didn't discount them. I wanted them to go after Brand in particular. But if we would get an obvious PF, it would be to replace Tyler. I think the Pacers clearly wanted a guy who would be able to protect the rim. It makes sense, because typically when somebody gets beat, if the center doesn't rotate over it's a wide open layin. Our PFs have been better this year, but they're no defensive stalwarts.

boombaby1987
12-07-2012, 12:20 AM
Man I want to see DC be successful. Such a nice guy.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 12:24 AM
I disagree, next to Hansbrough, we need a defensive/rebounding center - these guys are PF's. I liked Scola and Brand though if we moved Hansbrough. Stay away from AB.

Defense and rebounding is Kmart and Brand speciality, Ian is decent in D and is not that good of a rebounder for such a big guy, I'm also a Tyler fan but I can care less whatever is best next to Tyler he is not that important.

aamcguy
12-07-2012, 12:31 AM
Defense and rebounding is Kmart and Brand speciality, Ian is decent in D and is not that good of a rebounder for such a big guy, I'm also a Tyler fan but I can care less whatever is best next to Tyler he is not that important.

I kind of expect Tyler to play for us on his qualifying offer next year and then the next year we will let him go and replace him with Plumlee, giving us a large and athletic 2nd unit front line.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 12:35 AM
I kind of expect Tyler to play for us on his qualifying offer next year and then the next year we will let him go and replace him with Plumlee, giving us a large and athletic 2nd unit front line.

Yeah I'm not sure about that, I think he is gone.

aamcguy
12-07-2012, 12:44 AM
Yeah I'm not sure about that, I think he is gone.

You think somebody's gonna offer him something as a RFA? Or do you think we drop his rights purely for monetary purposes? That would give us a little cap flexibility for next year, but not if we intend to resign West or Granger I don't think. I'm curious.

wintermute
12-07-2012, 12:53 AM
Big deal. I would trade them both, together, plus a second round draft choice, for Jarrett Jack.

Hell yeah. Jarrett Jack was George Hill before we got George Hill. I'd welcome him back with open arms (even if he isn't a "true PG" either).


I rather get Calderon, a second round pick plus DJ for him can probably do it.

Unfortunately the money doesn't work. Calderon makes $10.5m, DJ makes $3.5m. Otherwise, yeah it would be Barbosa trade part 2.

wintermute
12-07-2012, 01:03 AM
You think somebody's gonna offer him something as a RFA? Or do you think we drop his rights purely for monetary purposes? That would give us a little cap flexibility for next year, but not if we intend to resign West or Granger I don't think. I'm curious.

I think we drop his rights to use the money elsewhere. Like with DC, we don't HAVE to get rid of his salary for cap reasons, but I think we will choose to in order to keep the overall budget down. I don't really agree with it, but that seems to be the financial parameters we're working under.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 01:04 AM
You think somebody's gonna offer him something as a RFA? Or do you think we drop his rights purely for monetary purposes? That would give us a little cap flexibility for next year, but not if we intend to resign West or Granger I don't think. I'm curious.

I think they are going to try to trade him first and if that doesn't work they would let him go, him making 4mil is not good business.

Eleazar
12-07-2012, 01:05 AM
You think somebody's gonna offer him something as a RFA? Or do you think we drop his rights purely for monetary purposes? That would give us a little cap flexibility for next year, but not if we intend to resign West or Granger I don't think. I'm curious.

Unless Hans improves greatly, I doubt the FO will want to pay him $4+ million when we could most likely have a decent back-up PF for much cheaper, possibly even Hans himself.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 01:09 AM
Hell yeah. Jarrett Jack was George Hill before we got George Hill. I'd welcome him back with open arms (even if he isn't a "true PG" either).



Unfortunately the money doesn't work. Calderon makes $10.5m, DJ makes $3.5m. Otherwise, yeah it would be Barbosa trade part 2.

My trade proposal was not finished, I know that somebody else has to be added to the deal Tyler could probably make it work ;)

15th parallel
12-07-2012, 01:21 AM
Hell yeah. Jarrett Jack was George Hill before we got George Hill. I'd welcome him back with open arms (even if he isn't a "true PG" either).

As weird as it is, "true PGs" do not work successfully for the Pacers for the past several years. Tinsley (mostly his fault), Ford (JOB's victim, and some are from injuries as well), DC (he plays like a "true PG" in NO so...) and now DJ. And much weirder is the fact that combo guards don't have problems playing as point. Jack, Hill, and even Lance (debatable if he's really a combo guard) and in some instance AJ have worked quite well.

Heisenberg
12-07-2012, 02:11 AM
As weird as it is, "true PGs" do not work successfully for the Pacers for the past several years. Tinsley (mostly his fault), Ford (JOB's victim, and some are from injuries as well), DC (he plays like a "true PG" in NO so...) and now DJ. And much weirder is the fact that combo guards don't have problems playing as point. Jack, Hill, and even Lance (debatable if he's really a combo guard) and in some instance AJ have worked quite well.

It ain't just us. It's a league wide deal. Name the actual "true PGs" in the NBA right now that're big time pieces of their team. Rondo clearly, CP3, Irving?, Nash if he can get healthy. Who else? It's a different league and different position now. Mark Jacksons don't work anymore.

wintermute
12-07-2012, 04:14 AM
My trade proposal was not finished, I know that somebody else has to be added to the deal Tyler could probably make it work ;)

Still doesn't work, unfortunately. In fact, DJ (3.5m), Tyler (3m), and Pendy (1.5m) together still (just) can't salary match Calderon. Not an easy trade to pull off unless we're adding more expensive pieces.

wintermute
12-07-2012, 04:19 AM
It ain't just us. It's a league wide deal. Name the actual "true PGs" in the NBA right now that're big time pieces of their team. Rondo clearly, CP3, Irving?, Nash if he can get healthy. Who else? It's a different league and different position now. Mark Jacksons don't work anymore.

More like there aren't a lot of Mark Jackson's around, and so the most talented remaining PG-sized players are all combos. Heck, Andre Miller, who's pretty much a modern day Mark Jackson, is still pretty effective at age 36.

15th parallel
12-07-2012, 04:24 AM
It ain't just us. It's a league wide deal. Name the actual "true PGs" in the NBA right now that're big time pieces of their team. Rondo clearly, CP3, Irving?, Nash if he can get healthy. Who else? It's a different league and different position now. Mark Jacksons don't work anymore.

Well there's still DWill, Kidd, Rubio and Calderon to name a few. I think the evolution is more on PGs becoming go-to scorers and setting up plays more for themselves as the 1st option (see DRose for example) but they're not necessarily combo guards (my definition of them is that they're naturally SGs that were playing as PG because of their lack of size).

McKeyFan
12-07-2012, 07:12 AM
More like there aren't a lot of Mark Jackson's around, and so the most talented remaining PG-sized players are all combos. Heck, Andre Miller, who's pretty much a modern day Mark Jackson, is still pretty effective at age 36.

Interesting. I wonder if that reveals a general decline in basketball culture and savvy. "We just don't build 'em like we used to" kind of thing.

CJ Jones
12-07-2012, 09:01 AM
Interesting. I wonder if that reveals a general decline in basketball culture and savvy. "We just don't build 'em like we used to" kind of thing.

It starts at the AAU level IMO. There's some really bad coaching. The players and the league's better than it used to be because of the natural progression of things, but it seems like a lot of the fundamentals of the game aren't being taught like they used to.

Ace E.Anderson
12-07-2012, 09:06 AM
It ain't just us. It's a league wide deal. Name the actual "true PGs" in the NBA right now that're big time pieces of their team. Rondo clearly, CP3, Irving?, Nash if he can get healthy. Who else? It's a different league and different position now. Mark Jacksons don't work anymore.

Been saying that for like 2 yrs now. Defenses are too good, nd guys are too athletic. Overall the game is just different. I don't think it's a bad thing.

Eleazar
12-07-2012, 09:18 AM
Interesting. I wonder if that reveals a general decline in basketball culture and savvy. "We just don't build 'em like we used to" kind of thing.

I think it is less of not building them like we used to and more of an evolution towards iso stars, and away from an actual offense. In general I agree with the decline in basketball culture and savvy.

Naptown_Seth
12-07-2012, 09:52 AM
Ian's killing it lately, he's playing like he did in preseason. Why are you still down on him? If he continues playing like this he's a bargain.
Because Vnzla is not rational about these things. Bigs that can drive, hit the midrange jumper (which Vnzla denies), block shots and apply physical strength in the post at both ends are a dime a dozen.

DC and DJones for Ian looks like a real bargain. Yes, you could have signed Ian and kept DC, but the team wanted to try what appeared to be a better passing PG option. And with DJ it's only a 1 year trial period, which doubles as a small cap clear at the mid-season trade deadline for teams looking to drop salary and reload.


DJ has been pretty terrible, but even at that rate he's a better passer than DC and does have the potential to at least shoot better than he has been. I'm doubting that he'll find his game this year, but maybe he will. It took Young and Mahinmi about 10 games to start to show signs of comfort.

Naptown_Seth
12-07-2012, 09:56 AM
I kind of expect Tyler to play for us on his qualifying offer next year and then the next year we will let him go and replace him with Plumlee, giving us a large and athletic 2nd unit front line.
No way they are eating that salary. Even Vnzla would dump him to sign someone like KMart for the same amount.

Hustling undersized bigs that shoot 40% are available for that price. They won't draw fouls like Tyler, but they'll get the same RebP48, better FG%, better defense, no blocked shots at the rim, etc.

Mackey_Rose
12-07-2012, 09:56 AM
DC has the athletic ability, he just doesn't have the basketball IQ needed to be a successful point guard in the NBA.

owl
12-07-2012, 10:44 AM
No way they are eating that salary. Even Vnzla would dump him to sign someone like KMart for the same amount.

Hustling undersized bigs that shoot 40% are available for that price. They won't draw fouls like Tyler, but they'll get the same RebP48, better FG%, better defense, no blocked shots at the rim, etc.

Tyler defends pretty well. He helped slow down Aldridge. Ultimately I agree though that unless Tyler signs cheap
he will be gone.

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 11:06 AM
Big deal. I would trade them both, together, plus a second round draft choice, for Jarrett Jack.


He11 YES!
10 Pts... 47% FG... 32% 3PT... 87% FT... 3 Reb... 4.5 Ast as a b/u PG for 5 mil.

Speed
12-07-2012, 11:13 AM
George Hill isn't a pure point guard (who is), but its nice to have a legit starting defensive Point Guard who clutch, than the parade of 'could be one of the best back ups' Point Guards who have been on this team over recent years. Looking at you Jarret Jack, DC, and Earl Watson. Not a diss on those guys, but honestly, if you have aspirations to contend and don't have a top 5 player, great back up types who are starting for you, aren't going to get it done. So ya, DJ hasn't been what I'd hoped for yet, but I'm still pretty happy with George Hill even though he not my preferred offensive type starting Point Guard. He is exactly what I want on defense, leadership, toughness, and he's fearless. Glass half full, for me, for now.

CJ Jones
12-07-2012, 11:16 AM
What's he had 2 good games, 2 decent games and 14 bad games? I'll admit that he's played better lately but let's not forget his complete work to date as a Pacer.

He's been consistently good defensively and sucked it up for the most part offensively, but who hasn't? He's shown me enough talent that I believe he's very capable of becoming a damn good player. Better than nearly every player mentioned in his price range in this thread. Did you see him finish that pass from Paul in traffic with his off hand last night? Or the fake pass then a crab dribble to free up space for the mid range jumper 2 games ago? Yeah he's got butterfingers, but I've noticed gradual improvements there also. He's a developing young player who's already fairly skilled. Once he fine tunes everything I think we're gonna have a gem on our hands. Go ahead and quote me on that.

Also, loving the West/Ian combo. They compliment each other very well on the court together. I'd like to see lots more of it.

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 11:16 AM
GSWs are not trading their insurance on Curry's gank ankle.


BUT, he's a UFA this off season.

Jarrett will command more than what he's presently making at 5.5 mil. I figure he'll get paid 6-7 mil by a team needing a starting PG.

Speed
12-07-2012, 11:18 AM
BUT, he's a UFA this off season.

Jarrett will command more than what he's presently making at 5.5 mil. I figure he'll get paid 6-7 mil by a team needing a starting PG.

...who will then realize he's one of the best back up Point Guards in the league.

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 11:27 AM
Mozgov


I watched Mosgov play in the Denver game the other night. He hasn't been playing much this season with Koufos starting and McGee playing off the bench. I didn't think he was that bad for a reserve bench player. He's a Walsh player from the Knicks that came to Denver in the Melo trade.

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 11:33 AM
For a guy like Ian not much, he should get the same type of contract the Pacers gave Solo, they are pretty similar.

Solo's name shouldn't be used in the same sentence with Ian as it's an insult to Ian. Ian has more talent than Solo ever had. Terrible comparison!

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 11:38 AM
I got JO - that's about it.


Rasheed Wallace

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 11:45 AM
[QUOTE=aamcguy;1541429]

And let's not pretend that Indiana is a hot ticket for veteran guys that are on their last legs. They want to be on teams where they can use their veteran awareness to make up for their lack of mobility utiltizing space that only superstars can create. /QUOTE]


Let us not pretend JO wouldn't love to come back to play for the Pacers. He's a steal at $854,300!

Eleazar
12-07-2012, 11:56 AM
And let's not pretend that Indiana is a hot ticket for veteran guys that are on their last legs. They want to be on teams where they can use their veteran awareness to make up for their lack of mobility utiltizing space that only superstars can create.

Chris Mullens and Sam Perkins say hello. When it comes to a team being a hotbed for veterans on their last leg, what vets prefer is all relative. They tend to pick championship caliber teams no matter where it is located. We haven't been championship caliber team lone enough to get those kind of vets..

Ace E.Anderson
12-07-2012, 12:08 PM
Let us not pretend JO wouldn't love to come back to play for the Pacers. He's a steal at $854,300!

If someone asks hey would you rather have a physical and athletic 26 yr old 7-footer as your B/U C for 4 mil a yr, or an old broken down 35 yr old 7 footer for under a million--most teams would choose the former.

JO looked DONE in Bos last yr, another yr taken away following injuries. Yes he would have loved to come back here, but nobody could have known that he'd be relatively healthy for the first time since...well forever really.

Also, he's playing in PHO where their training staff is known to work wonders (see Grant Hill) so it's not a surprise he goes there and is relatively healthy when compared to the past 5-6 yrs.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 12:13 PM
No way they are eating that salary. Even Vnzla would dump him to sign someone like KMart for the same amount.

Hustling undersized bigs that shoot 40% are available for that price. They won't draw fouls like Tyler, but they'll get the same RebP48, better FG%, better defense, no blocked shots at the rim, etc.

Yes I would dump him even though I really like the guy, as you can see I don't let my love for a guy to blind my look for what is better for the team, I wish some people could do the same thing, hell I wish the team could do the same, there is a reason why I admire Bill Polian the guy has the cojones many team owners don't have.

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 12:26 PM
...who will then realize he's one of the best back up Point Guards in the league.


That could be said about Hill too. Neither are true PG's, but combo guards. Some on this board want to bring the 8 MILLION MAN off the bench. That's 8 mil for 40% FG% for the year. Last 2 games of 18% in the Chicago game and 37% in the Portland game. Yeah, but he's clutch, right?

Jack 47% FG... 32% 3PT... 87% FT... 3 Reb... 4.5 Ast... 10 PPG as a BACKUP PG!

The things you mention about Hill such as defense, leadership, toughness, and fearlessness is the samething Jack has and had as a Pacer. Bird could have re-signed Jack at less than 20 mil for 4 years. HALF the money Walsh re-signed Hill for. No doubt to me which player is the better bargain, and his name isn't George Hill.

Lets hope Lawson can be contained tonight by the 8 MIL MAN. If not, it's going to be a long night in BLF.

naptownmenace
12-07-2012, 12:28 PM
Yes, he's actually a very good spark off the bench. He showed that against Miami and became a good weapon. But that's really all he is. He's like Vinnie Johnson back in the day in Detroit. He can heat up. He's not much different than having a Nate Robinson coming off the bench. But neither is a good starting PG. They are explosive scorers, short in stature. Neither make their team mates better and neither have that great court awareness you want in a PG.

Nate Robinson is the exact same comparison I was going to make. I think both players are above average bench players that can give you a good 20 - 24 minutes a game and keep things going offensively scoring-wise. They're great at pushing the tempo and getting shots early in the offense. I'd take either of them over DJ and give them the primary scoring role off the bench. I'm also missing Jarret Jack, TJ Ford, and even Travis Best right now.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 12:36 PM
Solo's name shouldn't be used in the same sentence with Ian as it's an insult to Ian. Ian has more talent than Solo ever had. Terrible comparison!

Similar players, Solo was brought here because of his ability to defend, block shots and score the jumper, sounds familiar? Ian to me looks better because of the system but at the end they are pretty close to be the same players.

Here are Bird comments after signing him, this sounds familiar:
“He’s a young, athletic player who has improved each year he has been in the league,” said Pacers President of Basketball Larry Bird. “He definitely can help hold down our interior defense and we believe he can be part of what we’re trying to do here.”

Read more: http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=4649#ixzz2ENtdtvkR

I also came across this tweet from Wells from few months ago, I didn't know they were looking at him again(before the off season so we are clear)
Keep an eye on Solomon Jones, who New Orleans didn't sign 4 rest of season, as a possible big man Pacers may look at to help at center

beast23
12-07-2012, 12:38 PM
I think we drop his rights to use the money elsewhere. Like with DC, we don't HAVE to get rid of his salary for cap reasons, but I think we will choose to in order to keep the overall budget down. I don't really agree with it, but that seems to be the financial parameters we're working under.
Funny thing with Tyler is that he is still an interior bull. His jump shot seems to have disappeared, but now it's like he has suddenly learned to play decent defense. But with his present contract and coming QO, there's probably no way he would re-sign for 2.5m or so.

Since86
12-07-2012, 12:41 PM
Similar players, Solo was brought here because of his ability to defend, block shots and score the jumper, sounds familiar? Ian to me looks better because of the system but at the end they are pretty close to be the same players.

Here are Bird comments after signing him, this sounds familiar:


Just because they're brought in to do the same type of play, doesn't mean they do it at the same level. I shouldn't have to point out the difference.

billbradley
12-07-2012, 12:45 PM
Similar players, Solo was brought here because of his ability to defend, block shots and score the jumper, sounds familiar? Ian to me looks better because of the system but at the end they are pretty close to be the same players.

Solo and Ian close? You can't be watching Pacer games. If healthy, Ian will have a long career in the NBA. Solo was a borderline D leaguer.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 12:45 PM
Just because they're brought in to do the same type of play, doesn't mean they do it at the same level. I shouldn't have to point out the difference.

No s*** really? .....

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 12:46 PM
Solo and Ian close? You can't be watching Pacer games. If healthy, Ian will have a long career in the NBA. Solo was a borderline D leaguer.

No doubt he is going to have a long career....... because he has a long term contract.....



Here is a video of Solomon Jones that I posted few weeks ago for those that care.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qKX6Ixr0BAc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


And yes Since86 I know the video doesn't prove anything, so don't bother in commenting because I know what you are going to say, thanks.

beast23
12-07-2012, 12:49 PM
DC has the athletic ability, he just doesn't have the basketball IQ needed to be a successful point guard in the NBA.
Partly agree. I think DC can be very successful; he's already proved that. It's just that his skill set would limit his probability for success to playing for only a very small subset of teams, each geared for a player of his type.

I think there are a lot of players like that. It's just that they chase money or get traded to teams that aren't geared to use them in their preferred ways. Then, suddenly they are viewed as sucking because their output decreases.

And I think that's why all of us, at one time or another, get infatuated with players on other teams who would NEVER work out here. We see what they accomplish elsewhere, and automatically want to believe that their performance will directly translate to our team.

I guess you could say that we all like setting ourselves up for disappointment.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 12:56 PM
DC has the athletic ability, he just doesn't have the basketball IQ needed to be a successful point guard in the NBA.

I think he is good enough to be an spark plug off teams benches ala CJ Watson, Jason Terry, Varea,etc, the quickest he realize this the better is going to be for him and his career.

billbradley
12-07-2012, 01:08 PM
No doubt he is going to have a long career....... because he has a long term contract.....

Correct, something Solo never earned. If Solo and Ian were the same player, Solo would still be in the NBA.

Ian moves and just knows where to be SO much better than Solo. I can't see how you can watch games and not notice this major gap. Solo never looked comfortable without the ball unless he was blocking a shot.

Naptown_Seth
12-07-2012, 01:30 PM
Solo's name shouldn't be used in the same sentence with Ian as it's an insult to Ian. Ian has more talent than Solo ever had. Terrible comparison!
Exactly. Comments like these are what are making me tune out Vnzla as irrational more than simply having a different opinion.

Freaking Solo going off dribble at all, or as consistantly putting up smooth outside jumpers, or in any way looking even 50% as coordinated. It's not even close. And when you look at their first few seasons you see that Ian has been making this natural progression in time and performance while Solo came out and just landed flat at whatever he was in year 1, maybe even declining a bit.

Ian is a career .543 shooter vs Solo's .470, and Solo was more of a score at the rim type than Ian. Ian is also a bit bigger than Solo.

Ian is coming out of a team-wide shooting slump. If it weren't for the Knicks game he would have trended up to 45% and held it well, with the Portland 6-6 bumping him to 48%. Over the last 6 games he's shot 54%. He's also seen a clear increase in fouls drawn (10, 8, 6 FTA games in last 6 games).

If he cuts the TOs down and maybe cuts back .5 to 1 foul a game, he's going to be a strong bench big. He's becoming a scoring option of the bench for a team that has no idea what the bench offense should look like.

Naptown_Seth
12-07-2012, 01:42 PM
And yes Since86 I know the video doesn't prove anything, so don't bother in commenting because I know what you are going to say, thanks.

It does prove something. It proves that a highlight reel doesn't even feature a SINGLE contested dribble. He puts the ball down on 1-2 plays with nobody between himself and the rim. All the other stuff is created by others, catch at the rim and dunk. On 2 of the PnRs he barely avoids the charge when the defender gets on the line instead of outside the circle.

This inability to physically adjust with the ball is a fundamental difference between the two players.

He's a classic long player with decent hops that if you set them up they will make the dunk or make the shot block. Solo is a good shot blocker, but that has as much to do with length and hops as anything. Let him come as the help defender and he's going to get the shot block, but Solo was never close to showing the straight up low post position defense that Ian can do.

It kills me that the video evidence you go to seems to reinforce the exact points of contention.

Ian vs Memphis in pre-season, one of the quickest vids I could find. Primarily notice the 2 early low post plays where he puts the ball on the court, contested in the post, and dribble moves his way into a quality score.


http://youtu.be/bUDcgXP8Wjg

BillS
12-07-2012, 01:45 PM
No doubt he is going to have a long career....... because he has a long term contract.....



Here is a video of Solomon Jones that I posted few weeks ago for those that care.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qKX6Ixr0BAc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


And yes Since86 I know the video doesn't prove anything, so don't bother in commenting because I know what you are going to say, thanks.

Are you just arguing here for the sake of arguing? Because I know you know the game well enough that you cannot possibly be saying that Solo and Ian are the same player playing at the same level and doing everything just as well. Even I know better than that.

If you are saying that Solo brought more value for his money than Ian does for his, say that directly so that we don't get sidetracked down such a ridiculous path.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 01:59 PM
Are you just arguing here for the sake of arguing? Because I know you know the game well enough that you cannot possibly be saying that Solo and Ian are the same player playing at the same level and doing everything just as well. Even I know better than that.

I'm just giving my opinion, it's amazing how much overreaction I get from people even if I'm commenting on freaking Ian Mahinmi, I guess I'm going to have to start trashing Paul George so people can jump in his bandwagon.


If you are saying that Solo brought more value for his money than Ian does for his, say that directly so that we don't get sidetracked down such a ridiculous path.

I don't think Solo was as bad as many of people here made him out to be, he to me was pretty decent for the type of money he was making, yes Solo brought more for his value(1.3mil) than Ian is bringing at 4mil, Ian brings a bit more but not as much to pay him 4mil for the next 4 years.

Trader Joe
12-07-2012, 02:00 PM
I would trade Mahinmi and DJ for him and I am a DC hater :cool2:

I don't think I'd give up Ian for him. but DJ yeah....

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 02:00 PM
It does prove something. It proves that a highlight reel doesn't even feature a SINGLE contested dribble. He puts the ball down on 1-2 plays with nobody between himself and the rim. All the other stuff is created by others, catch at the rim and dunk. On 2 of the PnRs he barely avoids the charge when the defender gets on the line instead of outside the circle.

This inability to physically adjust with the ball is a fundamental difference between the two players.

He's a classic long player with decent hops that if you set them up they will make the dunk or make the shot block. Solo is a good shot blocker, but that has as much to do with length and hops as anything. Let him come as the help defender and he's going to get the shot block, but Solo was never close to showing the straight up low post position defense that Ian can do.

It kills me that the video evidence you go to seems to reinforce the exact points of contention.

Ian vs Memphis in pre-season, one of the quickest vids I could find. Primarily notice the 2 early low post plays where he puts the ball on the court, contested in the post, and dribble moves his way into a quality score.


Yep the famous preseason that people don't forget about, those were the times I tell you.......

Since86
12-07-2012, 02:01 PM
No s*** really? .....

So you made a post trying to make your point, that doesn't make any point? Nice.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 02:07 PM
Exactly. Comments like these are what are making me tune out Vnzla as irrational more than simply having a different opinion.

Says the guy that his answer to why a player is performing well it's because of PED's.......


Freaking Solo going off dribble at all, or as consistantly putting up smooth outside jumpers, or in any way looking even 50% as coordinated. It's not even close. And when you look at their first few seasons you see that Ian has been making this natural progression in time and performance while Solo came out and just landed flat at whatever he was in year 1, maybe even declining a bit.

Yep he declined so much that his best season in his career was at New Orleans after he was a Pacers.......



Ian is a career .543 shooter vs Solo's .470, and Solo was more of a score at the rim type than Ian. Ian is also a bit bigger than Solo.

Like I said a bit better than Solo you are still making my point, you are acting like we are comparing Kobe to Sam Young here.


Ian is coming out of a team-wide shooting slump. If it weren't for the Knicks game he would have trended up to 45% and held it well, with the Portland 6-6 bumping him to 48%. Over the last 6 games he's shot 54%. He's also seen a clear increase in fouls drawn (10, 8, 6 FTA games in last 6 games).

If he cuts the TOs down and maybe cuts back .5 to 1 foul a game, he's going to be a strong bench big. He's becoming a scoring option of the bench for a team that has no idea what the bench offense should look like.

If I was rich I could buy an NBA team but I'm not rich........

Trader Joe
12-07-2012, 02:11 PM
He said a bit bigger than Solo....not a bit better. But don't let that stop you from making your point, whatever it is.
Ian is a lot better than Solo. Solo was basically if Magnum Rolle had gotten a chance to play in the NBA, which is to say really bad at professional basketball.

This is like when you would compare Tyler to David West and you would get all kind of evidence against you and say well yes West is better, but that gap isn't that huge, no the gap is that huge, both in comparing Ian to Solomon Jones or comparing Tyler to West.

purdue101
12-07-2012, 02:21 PM
Yep he declined so much that his best season in his career was at New Orleans after he was a Pacers.......

He played 11 freaking games for a terrible New Orleans team and then they released him!!! You call that his best season haha?? 11 games isn't even a sample size worth consideration. Prior to that he was waived by LAC and now he is out of the league. You will skew, manipulate, and twist everything to prove your point. The reason posters consistently trump you is b/c facts say otherwise. If anything, his season in NO (which YOU brought up) proves he sucks.

http://www.nola.com/hornets/index.ssf/2012/03/new_orleans_hornets_decline_to.html

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 02:22 PM
He said a bit bigger than Solo....not a bit better. But don't let that stop you from making your point, whatever it is.
Ian is a lot better than Solo. Solo was basically if Magnum Rolle had gotten a chance to play in the NBA, which is to say really bad at professional basketball.

This is like when you would compare Tyler to David West and you would get all kind of evidence against you and say well yes West is better, but that gap isn't that huge, no the gap is that huge, both in comparing Ian to Solomon Jones or comparing Tyler to West.

:laugh: Anybody would think that I'm comparing Kobe to Sam Young or Gerald Green, yes I said he is better than Solo but not much better as you guys believe, in reality all I'm doing is comparing two dog turds, they are both not that good.

Here are their career numbers if you care:

Solo 3.1 PPG 2.4rpg .6 bpg and a shooting percentage of .470

Ian 4.4ppg 3.2rpg .5 bpg and a shooting percentage of .543

Yep Ian is SO MUCH BETTER.....

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 02:24 PM
He said a bit bigger than Solo....not a bit better. But don't let that stop you from making your point, whatever it is.
Ian is a lot better than Solo. Solo was basically if Magnum Rolle had gotten a chance to play in the NBA, which is to say really bad at professional basketball.

This is like when you would compare Tyler to David West and you would get all kind of evidence against you and say well yes West is better, but that gap isn't that huge, no the gap is that huge, both in comparing Ian to Solomon Jones or comparing Tyler to West.

Yes I was wrong in comparing Tyler to West, I expected Tyler to be better, that still doesn't mean that I'm wrong in comparing Solo to Ian, stop acting like the comparison is out of this world because is not.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 02:26 PM
He played 11 freaking games for a terrible New Orleans team and then they released him!!! You call that his best season haha?? 11 games isn't even a sample size worth consideration. Prior to that he was waived by LAC and now he is out of the league. You will skew, manipulate, and twist everything to prove your point. The reason posters consistently trump you is b/c facts say otherwise. If anything, his season in NO (which YOU brought up) proves he sucks.

http://www.nola.com/hornets/index.ssf/2012/03/new_orleans_hornets_decline_to.html

11 games in the real NBA is better than using preseason stuff just saying.....

Trader Joe
12-07-2012, 02:28 PM
7% difference is shooting percentage is huge. I don't know how to make that clear to you.

Also when you compare their "best seasons" since you referenced Solo's 11 games with New Orleans as his "best season" earlier, it's not that close either. Just comparing ppg or rpg, it doesn't tell the whole story. Especially in a bench player, efficiency is CRUCIAL, Ian is the much more efficient player simply because he shoots the ball 7 percentage points higher than Solo. That is an improvement of nearly 15% over what Solo does. Even in his "best year" in New Orleans Solo was shooting the ball worse than Ian is shooting it in his worst year so far.

Trader Joe
12-07-2012, 02:29 PM
11 games in the real NBA is better than using preseason stuff just saying.....

19 games into the real NBA Ian is way more efficient than Solo ever was...just saying. And that's accounting for a terrible start and a shooting percentage that is right now 10 points worse than his career average.

Solomon Jones is not even in the NBA right now and couldn't stick on a really bad Hornets team, Ian is playing pretty good basketball right now for a team that is 10-9 and 7-3 over their last 10. No it's not Sam Young vs. Kobe, but it's a pretty big gap. The fact that you can't see that is pretty humorous.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 02:34 PM
:laugh: a 7% difference makes a player be worth 3mil more mil a year than another player, amazing......



I'm done with this conversation by the way, I can't believe so many here want to argue about two turds, let's argue about West, Hibbert or Paul George at least those 3 are worth arguing for, I'm out.

Trader Joe
12-07-2012, 02:34 PM
:laugh: a 7% difference makes a player be worth 3mil more mil a year than another player, amazing......



I'm done with this conversation by the way, I can't believe so many here want to argue about two turds, let's argue about West, Hibbert or Paul George at least those 3 are worth arguing for, I'm out.

You're the one who brought up Solomon Jones didn't you?

Trader Joe
12-07-2012, 02:37 PM
:laugh: a 7% difference makes a player be worth 3mil more mil a year than another player, amazing......



I'm done with this conversation by the way, I can't believe so many here want to argue about two turds, let's argue about West, Hibbert or Paul George at least those 3 are worth arguing for, I'm out.

7% difference is a big deal. If Kevin Durant shot the ball 7% worse than he does, he'd be Danny Granger and not Kevin Durant. Shooting percentage is a lot more than just a "number". It tells you what kind of shots the player can get, how easily the player can get those shots, how many times a game he is forcing bad shots, there is a lot that goes into that number.

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 02:38 PM
We look at this trade of DC and Dahntay for Ian from a Pacers view, so let's look at the trade for DC from a Dallas perspective. Even if DC isn't the starting PG they thought, he's only on a contract for this year, same as Dahntay. They gave up Mahinmi which wasn't really needed. Both will contribute more together for them than Mahinmi would have if they had re-signed him. They basically took a flyer on DC as their PG of the future. If it doesn't workout they aren't out that much. They have 2 expiring contracts they could use in a trade or trades unlike the Pacers who have a 4 year guaranteed contract in Mahinmi. The Mavs aren't stuck with a player, and the salaries of DC and Dahntay aren't part of their salary next year.

Who knows, maybe they will be able to trade DC for something worthwhile for the future. From Dallas' side they took a flyer on a player who didn't workout. No big loss for them as they'll just go after someone else next year.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 02:40 PM
We look at this trade of DC and Dahntay for Ian from a Pacers view, so let's look at the trade for DC from a Dallas perspective. Even if DC isn't the starting PG they thought, he's only on a contract for this year, same as Dahntay. They gave up Mahinmi which wasn't really needed. Both will contribute more together for them than Mahinmi would have if they had re-signed him. They basically took a flyer on DC as their PG of the future. If it doesn't workout they aren't out that much. They have 2 expiring contracts they could use in a trade or trades unlike the Pacers who have a 4 year guaranteed contract in Mahinmi. The Mavs aren't stuck with a player, and the salaries of DC and Dahntay aren't part of their salary next year.

Who knows, maybe they will be able to trade DC for something worthwhile for the future. From Dallas' side they took a flyer on a player who didn't workout. No big loss for them as they'll just go after someone else next year.

They also have a good backup center that is expiring in Wright that only makes 1mil a year and is averaging 8 points and 3 rebounds per game.

Trader Joe
12-07-2012, 02:41 PM
We look at this trade of DC and Dahntay for Ian from a Pacers view, so let's look at the trade for DC from a Dallas perspective. Even if DC isn't the starting PG they thought, he's only on a contract for this year, same as Dahntay. They gave up Mahinmi which wasn't really needed. Both will contribute more together for them than Mahinmi would have if they had re-signed him. They basically took a flyer on DC as their PG of the future. If it doesn't workout they aren't out that much. They have 2 expiring contracts they could use in a trade or trades unlike the Pacers who have a 4 year guaranteed contract in Mahinmi. The Mavs aren't stuck with a player, and the salaries of DC and Dahntay aren't part of their salary next year.

Who knows, maybe they will be able to trade DC for something worthwhile for the future. From Dallas' side they took a flyer on a player who didn't workout. No big loss for them as they'll just go after someone else next year.

No doubt, I completely agree with this. Dallas is going to keep swinging at free agents with cap space til they hit.

Since86
12-07-2012, 02:42 PM
7% difference is a big deal. If Kevin Durant shot the ball 7% worse than he does, he'd be Danny Granger and not Kevin Durant. Shooting percentage is a lot more than just a "number". It tells you what kind of shots the player can get, how easily the player can get those shots, how many times a game he is forcing bad shots, there is a lot that goes into that number.

Everyone knows Danny shot the ball like crap last year, and Vnlza wasn't shy about pointing it out either. Danny's FG% last season was 5% worse, than his best shooting season in his career.

I love it when people pick and choose when something is significant, and when it isn't, based purely on personal opinion.

Anthem
12-07-2012, 03:00 PM
I'm done with this conversation by the way, I can't believe so many here want to argue about two turds, let's argue about West, Hibbert or Paul George at least those 3 are worth arguing for, I'm out.
Dude, this ceased to be about Solo/Ian quite a while ago. This is about people calling you out when you say stuff that you know is ridiculous.

I quote from here:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?77745-Pacers-Kings-post-game-thread&p=1539659&viewfull=1#post1539659


Most of the people on here are trying to have a nice, rational discussion. You've proven you're capable of that. You're as smart as anybody here, but your absolute insistence that you're never ever ever ever ever ever wrong just gives you less credibility, not more.

That whole conversation's worth a re-read, actually.

billbradley
12-07-2012, 04:40 PM
Dude, this ceased to be about Solo/Ian quite a while ago. This is about people calling you out when you say stuff that you know is ridiculous.

I quote from here:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?77745-Pacers-Kings-post-game-thread&p=1539659&viewfull=1#post1539659

That whole conversation's worth a re-read, actually.

I think vnzla81 just gets worked up and says things he doesn't mean, using controversy or ridiculous statements for effect. After he says it, he would rather defend it instead of admitting he went too over the top.

The guy watches a lot of Pacers it seems, he has to know the difference between a scrub that gets waived by bottom dwellers and a career solid back up Center.

McKeyFan
12-07-2012, 06:26 PM
Yep the famous preseason that people don't forget about, those were the times I tell you.......

Thanked for humor, not content (Seth might even be right). Once in a while, you sneak a funny between that Spanish accent.

beast23
12-07-2012, 10:17 PM
Yes I was wrong in comparing Tyler to West, I expected Tyler to be better, that still doesn't mean that I'm wrong in comparing Solo to Ian, stop acting like the comparison is out of this world because is not.

Vnzla, come on! STOP IT!

For jc's sakes. You are comparing a player that can't even stay in the league, which means he isn't even good enough to be the 15th effing player on any of 31 rosters, to the first big off the bench on what is thought to be a team capable of contending for its conference championship.

Please tell me that you are not so stubborn that you cannot recognize how ludicrous this seems.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 10:25 PM
Vnzla, come on! STOP IT!

For jc's sakes. You are comparing a player that can't even stay in the league, which means he isn't even good enough to be the 15th effing player on any of 31 rosters, to the first big off the bench on what is thought to be a team capable of contending for its conference championship.

Please tell me that you are not so stubborn that you cannot recognize how ludicrous this seems.

DJ Augustin is the first point guard off the bench does that make him great? of course not, and just so you know Ian was garbage today with an amazing 2 and 7 in 18 minutes what an amazing player I tell you.

beast23
12-07-2012, 10:30 PM
DJ Augustin is the first point guard off the bench does that make him great? of course not, and just so you know Ian was garbage today with an amazing 2 and 7 in 18 minutes what an amazing player I tell you.
Thank you for the clarification. I suppose that my question has been answered.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 10:33 PM
Thank you for the clarification. I suppose that my question has been answered.

Your point doesn't make sense anyway, you think Ian is good because he is the first big off the bench, so if you believe that you should also believe that DJ, Tyler and the rest of the garbage bench are good players too, it doesn't work that way.

beast23
12-07-2012, 10:52 PM
Your point doesn't make sense anyway, you think Ian is good because he is the first big off the bench, so if you believe that you should also believe that DJ, Tyler and the rest of the garbage bench are good players too, it doesn't work that way.
See, there you go again. Taking a partial view of the statement to argue your point.

So let me separate it out for you. I'm making a simple statement regarding only two players. Ian is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Solomon. I conclude that because Solomon cannot even stay in the league, whereas Ian is a vital rotational player on our team playing the same position.

If Ian were at the end of our bench, manning perhaps the 13th to 15th slot on our roster, I might be compelled to extend you a little latitude.

But he's not. Ian is a player who actually is a 6th to 7th player on a team that competes in a professional league called the NBA. The other guy, named Solomon, is pond scum in comparison.

vnzla81
12-07-2012, 11:05 PM
See, there you go again. Taking a partial view of the statement to argue your point.

So let me separate it out for you. I'm making a simple statement regarding only two players. Ian is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Solomon. I conclude that because Solomon cannot even stay in the league, whereas Ian is a vital rotational player on our team playing the same position.

If Ian were at the end of our bench, manning perhaps the 13th to 15th slot on our roster, I might be compelled to extend you a little latitude.

But he's not. Ian is a player who actually is a 6th to 7th player on a team that competes in a professional league called the NBA. The other guy, named Solomon, is pond scum in comparison.

The Pacers gave the guy a long term contract and don't have anybody to replace him your point still makes no sense, he has to play not matter what just like DJ and yes Solo is out of the NBA because nobody was crazy enough to give him a long term contract unlike Mahinmi.

By the way I believe Ian is better than Solo and I believe that Ian belongs in the NBA but not for 4mil a year.

Trader Joe
12-08-2012, 12:53 AM
DC warts and all, I would run naked around the circle if he showed up on this team tomorrow to be our backup point guard.

imawhat
12-08-2012, 01:31 AM
Me too.

Collison has a knack of making expectations high when he plays for new teams. They were too high here and now they're too high in Dallas. He'll be great as a backup there eventually.

DJVendetta
12-08-2012, 02:16 AM
I think DC would have made a pretty good back up PG in Indiana, too bad he didn't want that. He fit this "system" well. Man at this point I'd trade DJ for a Ham Sandwich. Throw in Green for some condiments.

Sollozzo
12-08-2012, 09:43 AM
DC warts and all, I would run naked around the circle if he showed up on this team tomorrow to be our backup point guard.


Exactly. Does he have his flaws? Absolutely. Is Hill a better starter? No question. But would DC be an absolute superior backup option to DJ? Hell yes.

DC could at least make plays that would help the Pacers. Plus this would have been his third year playing with these guys. The chemistry would have been even better.

Pacer Fan
12-08-2012, 10:03 AM
I rather get Calderon, a second round pick plus DJ for him can probably do it.

Need another 6 million going out for that to happen. DJ, Green and the 2 million we overpaid Hill would be really close of getting it done tho!