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View Full Version : Where do you rate Kobe all time?



vnzla81
12-06-2012, 12:14 PM
Pretty simple question, where do you think Kobe should be rated at and why?

Sollozzo
12-06-2012, 12:28 PM
Top 7 or 8 at absolute worst. I could honestly put him fifth after Jordan, Magic, Bird, and Jabbar. I would assume that most people would still have Wilt and Russell ahead of him though.

Major Cold
12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Jabbar
5. Wilt
6. Kobe

He could get to number 2 when it is all said and done.

PacersHomer
12-06-2012, 12:31 PM
1. Jordan



























2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Russell
5. Abdul-Jabbar
6. Wilt
7. Kobe with Duncan extremely close

Sollozzo
12-06-2012, 12:33 PM
The fact that Kobe has just one MVP is crazy. Shaq only has one too. Steve Nash has as many MVP's as Shaq and Kobe combined. Shaq should have definitely won the 04-05 one that Nash won. Shaq transformed the Heat into an elite team while the Lakers crumbled and missed the playoffs without him. Nash made the Suns great, but the Mavs were still an elite team without him. 04-05 Shaq was the epitome of an MVP in every sense.

ASkin_ANight
12-06-2012, 12:38 PM
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Jabbar
5. Wilt
6. Kobe

He could get to number 2 when it is all said and done.

Strongly disagree. He'll never pass Bird or Magic.

Sookie
12-06-2012, 12:38 PM
3. (MJ, Wilt) It might be pushing it, but I think when it's all said and done, Kobe could end up #2. (Particularly if he gets one or more ring)

I think the fact that people don't rate him in the top 5 automatically is crazy. I know he has some obvious flaws in his game, but Kobe often wins in ways only Kobe can.

MyFavMartin
12-06-2012, 12:46 PM
I think by the end of their careers, it'll be:
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. LeBron

I'll admit thought I was young while Magic and Bird were nearing the end of their careers, and it's hard to compare PGs vs. wings vs. front-court players.

vnzla81
12-06-2012, 12:46 PM
Yeah I'm not a Kobe fan but you have to admire the guy, his work ethic is amazing, I think he is at least in my top 5.

MJ
Will
Kareem
Magic
Kobe

Like other people said I think he has a chance to be number 2.

Speed
12-06-2012, 12:50 PM
Well theres Magic and Bird who brought the game to the masses, then there is Jordan who took it to an unbelieveable level. Kobe almost can't pass them, there's just not as much to accomplish in the big picture to reach that level. I saw Bird and Magic their entire careers, just a whole other level on making players around them better and clutchness. Jordan was simple unbelieveable almost every night, played both ways. Kobe is great, but he'll never pass those 3 in my book, not even close. Guys like Wilt, Russell, are just before my time. Jabbar was an older version by the time I was watching. Hard to say. I will say those 3 were great, I put Jabbar a clear notch below Wilt and Russell, though.

sooo

MJ

Bird/Magic

Alot of other great players. Like Shaq, Hakeem, then probably Duncan (in retrospect, in a couple of years) Stockton, Malone in the conversation. Where's Barkley fall, he was unstoppable for awhile. I mean their could be an argument for 20 players in the next tier, I'd have Kobe towards the top of it, but a fair distance from the top 3, imo.

PS I think Lebron will reach that next group fairly easily and should already be part of the conversation.

glazedham42
12-06-2012, 01:03 PM
I don't put him as high as most others might in the all time conversation. I still feel like he's a chucker, who was fortunate enough to have the green light since the beginning of his career thanks to the early successes he had with Shaq. If you take each of these players at their absolute peak, and ignore the accumulated stats over however long their careers were there are sevarl players I would choose in a playground pickup game before Kobe. His career is built on longevity, similar to John Stockton. Here's my list in order...

Legendary:
-MJ
-Wilt
-Bill Russell
-Kareem
-Magic
-Bird

All Time Greats:
-Tim Duncan
-Hakeem
-Shaq
-Karl Malone
-Kobe
-Oscar Robertson
-Moses Malone
-David Robinson (member of the quad-double club)
-Scottie Pippen
-LeBron (Yeah, I hate him as much as anyone else, but let's face it he's special)
-Stockton
-Sir Charles
-Ewing

Major Cold
12-06-2012, 01:52 PM
Strongly disagree. He'll never pass Bird or Magic.
In sentiment...no. As a career, one more ring might do it. And I hate the dude.

Coopdog23
12-06-2012, 01:52 PM
top 15

GeniusJMG
12-06-2012, 01:54 PM
MJ
Russell
Bird
LeBron
Magic
Hakeem
KAJ
Chamberlain
West
Shaq
Kobe

Major Cold
12-06-2012, 01:59 PM
Wow.... I think I am checking out of this discussion. Toodles!!! :girlfight:

Eleazar
12-06-2012, 01:59 PM
Behind Shaq.

Goyle
12-06-2012, 02:07 PM
Best I've ever seen considering I'm only able to remember the end of Jordan's career.

Ace E.Anderson
12-06-2012, 02:09 PM
Strongly disagree. He'll never pass Bird or Magic.

It's hard to pass ambassadors of the game. Which Magic and Bird, and later MJ were. But take that out of context, look at their games, longevity, their numbers and there's no way anyone can say that Kobe just CANNOT pass Magic or Bird. He's passed Bird in rings, and his numbers blow Magic's out of the water. Yes Kobe has gotten to play with Shaq, and later Pau, but those guys (Magic and Bird) played with HOF starting lineups throughout most of their careers. As Speed said, they brought the game to the masses. You can only do that once, and once you've done it, you're legacy is sealed no matter what anyone AFTER you has done. But that shouldn't diminish what Kobe has done.

If Kobe wins one more ring his resume will read:

6 rings, 30,000 plus points, 6500 rebounds, 6000 assists, 2000 steals, close to 1300 games, close to 250 (or 3 more NBA seasons). I mean you can hate him all you want, but don't deny his greatness due to your dislike of Kobe Bryant--the man. Kobe was essentially the first player within the post-Jordan era to not only have the hype as the "next great player" but to surpass the hype. He came into--and played in the league at a time where ESPN picked up some serious steam, and NBATV/NBA.COM was launched. This is a much different time than when Magic, Bird and even MJ played. Nowadays a player is being watched and or talked about nearly 24 hrs a day, on a DAILY basis. It's a lot easier to hate someone with all the media nowadays because of the never ending coverage.

MJ
Magic/Bird
Kobe
Wilt
Kareem

Slick Pinkham
12-06-2012, 02:15 PM
9-15??

I have
Jordan,
Chamberlain,
Russell,
Jabbar,
Magic,
Oscar,
Bird, and
Jerry West as my top 8.

I'm fine to mix him somewhere in the next 7, with
Hakeem,
Moses Malone,
Shaq,
Lebron,
Barkley,
Isiah Thomas
Kobe
(but in any order you wish).

I would put that bunch above the next cluster of
Duncan,
Karl Malone,
Stockton,
Ewing,
Elgin Baylor,
Elvin Hayes
Bob Petit
Bob Lanier

by my count that's 23.

I might be forgetting somebody

Future_NBA_Player
12-06-2012, 02:23 PM
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Jabbar
5. Wilt
6. Kobe

He could get to number 2 when it is all said and done.

This is all opinion so please do not resort to name calling. Thank you

Slick Pinkham
12-06-2012, 02:27 PM
It's hard to pass ambassadors of the game. Which Magic and Bird, and later MJ were. But take that out of context, look at their games, longevity, their numbers and there's no way anyone can say that Kobe just CANNOT pass Magic or Bird. He's passed Bird in rings, and his numbers blow Magic's out of the water...

MJ
Magic/Bird
Kobe
Wilt
Kareem

I have to put him below Bird, a by a lot, just on skills.

Who was a better shooter? Bird, easily
Who was a better passer? Bird, easily
Who excelled an another offensive category? Bird, rebounding

Who was better defensively? Kobe

Bird will get shortchanged in career numbers analysis, due to 5 years in college and a career-ending back problems

TinManJoshua
12-06-2012, 02:47 PM
I'd rate him as a first ballot HOF'er. The number ranking is a little beyond where I want to go, as I don't feel my opinion is that set-in-stone about a large number of players.

Kid Minneapolis
12-06-2012, 02:56 PM
He's maybe 10-15 for me. Maybe.

Ace E.Anderson
12-06-2012, 03:11 PM
I have to put him below Bird, a by a lot, just on skills.

Who was a better shooter? Bird, easily
Who was a better passer? Bird, easily
Who excelled an another offensive category? Bird, rebounding

Who was better defensively? Kobe

Bird will get shortchanged in career numbers analysis, due to 5 years in college and a career-ending back problems

To me, and obviously this is all opinion, but when you talk about greats, its not as black and white as "who's a better shooter", etc.

I mean hell Bird was a better shooter and passer than MJ and a wayyyy better shooter than Magic. (come to think about it--Bird is close to being the best shooter ever lol) Outside of Bird, most great scorer's aren't necessarily GREAT shooters. But if he played all three (including Kobe) in one on one, he probably loses. Obviously it's a team game--but you get what I'm saying.

Rebounding--well Bird plays forward. Forwards rebound better than guards.

Kobe is the not only the first, but he may be the ONLY high school to pros player that went on to have a legendary career. KG has had a HOF career no doubt, but he trailed off eventually. Kobe has been great for what, 10, 12 straight seasons now? He's been playing this long and hasn't slipped a bit. In fact, he's probably gotten better as his athleticism has eroded--which is unheard of for a guard.

Like I said, IMO it's just hard to say "well he's the better shooter, he's the better passer" when it comes to greats.

And I'm not saying he's better. ((Though I think he will be when it's all said and done))--I'm saying its debatable.

BillS
12-06-2012, 03:17 PM
Kobe is the not only the first, but he may be the ONLY high school to pros player that went on to have a legendary career.

There's this LeBron guy...

Major Cold
12-06-2012, 03:19 PM
You're an idiot!!!

Fixed. You're out of line. Your rebuttal is lacking substance. You're in over your head. Your tone is unacceptable. Your avatar is awesome. But you're going to have be more definitive in your reasoning for me to address this further.

Ace E.Anderson
12-06-2012, 03:22 PM
There's this LeBron guy...

I don't think his career has been legendary just yet. Numbers wise, yes. But for all that talent, he only has one ring whereas Kobe has 5.

Thus far, I would say that Lebron has underachieved a bit (in my eyes the most blessed and talented basketball player I've ever seen)


Not saying he wont be legendary one day, and there's no doubt the guy is GREAT. But I still rank Kobe as the best player to come straight from HS to the pros.

Cactus Jax
12-06-2012, 03:30 PM
There's this LeBron guy...

Kevin Garnett is pretty damn good too... definently hall of fame quality.

Ace E.Anderson
12-06-2012, 03:39 PM
Lol I mentioned KG as a HOF'er. Meaning a hall of famer....

ilive4sports
12-06-2012, 04:04 PM
I don't think his career has been legendary just yet. Numbers wise, yes. But for all that talent, he only has one ring whereas Kobe has 5.

Thus far, I would say that Lebron has underachieved a bit (in my eyes the most blessed and talented basketball player I've ever seen)


Not saying he wont be legendary one day, and there's no doubt the guy is GREAT. But I still rank Kobe as the best player to come straight from HS to the pros.
I would say LeBron not winning a ring in his first year in Miami was a disappointment. But his time in Cleveland? Nah sorry, don't care how talented you are, when you have a **** team around you, and you are able to carry them to the Finals or ECF multiple times, its still impressive. I can't really fault him for not winning in Cleveland. Those teams just weren't good. And we saw that once he left.

Of course LeBron still has work to do, but he'll get it done. The dude is still improving. He's a student of the game still and he got that first ring. And he is still on a team with Wade and Bosh. LeBron has the talent to go down as the best ever. Don't think he will though. I do think he can surpass Kobe though.

For me, Kobe is behind Michael. Not sure if I can put him behind anyone else. Just watching him, even this late into his career, its really a treat. I love watching the guy play. Yeah he won his first 3 titles with Shaq as the main piece, but they don't win without Kobe either. Youngest by over a year to 30k points? Ridiculous.

Pace Maker
12-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Obviously Kobe is a great player, but what exactly has he done without riding on Shaq/Gasol's back? Even today when he's still playing at a high level, if Gasol can't produce the team will amount to nothing. His point averages were insane during his prime, but again, he would never make the Finals. Yes his team was garbage, but Lebron led his useless team to 60+ seasons and a Finals appearance...

tl dr; probably low top 10

Ace E.Anderson
12-06-2012, 04:55 PM
Obviously Kobe is a great player, but what exactly has he done without riding on Shaq/Gasol's back? Even today when he's still playing at a high level, if Gasol can't produce the team will amount to nothing. His point averages were insane during his prime, but again, he would never make the Finals. Yes his team was garbage, but Lebron led his useless team to 60+ seasons and a Finals appearance...

tl dr; probably low top 10

You can say that about any great player on a championship team. Nobody wins without good teamates lol.
And you can't compare Lebron's "sad" teams to Kobe's.

Mo Williams >> Smush Parker
Kobe Bryant>>>Anthony Parker/Larry Hughes/D. West
Lebron James >>>>Luke Walton/Caron Butler
Lamar Odom > A young Anderson Verejao
Zydrunas Illgausgas >> a young Bynum, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown

Cavs also had a better bench.

Kobe's teams were one of the worst assembled teams for those few years.

riverside
12-06-2012, 05:13 PM
i'd say around 20th. if he were charismatic & likable, top 5 probably

glazedham42
12-06-2012, 05:14 PM
Kobe is the not only the first, but he may be the ONLY high school to pros player that went on to have a legendary career.

Kobe was not the first. Moses Malone was probably the first real prep-to-pro player in 1974. Kobe Bryant wouldn't enter the world for another 4 years. Moses was a 3 time NBA MVP, Champion and Finals MVP in 1983, 12X All Star, 4 Time All-NBA First team, and scored 29,500 points in his career. I don't think his overall resume is quite as impressive as Kobe's, but he was definitely a successful prep-to-pro way before anyone else.

Pace Maker
12-06-2012, 05:17 PM
You can say that about any great player on a championship team. Nobody wins without good teamates lol.
And you can't compare Lebron's "sad" teams to Kobe's.

Mo Williams >> Smush Parker
Kobe Bryant>>>Anthony Parker/Larry Hughes/D. West
Lebron James >>>>Luke Walton/Caron Butler
Lamar Odom > A young Anderson Verejao
Zydrunas Illgausgas >> a young Bynum, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown

Cavs also had a better bench.

Kobe's teams were one of the worst assembled teams for those few years.
Well the typical argument for Kobe's "greatness" is because of his 5 rings, which is great and everything but I always felt like he was the 2nd best player whenever they were really good.

Yeah looking back LBJ's Cleveland team was better, (but god damn how the hell did he lead them to 60+ wins with Mike Brown??! lol). I guess I've just always thought that Kobe, while remarkable, has been blessed with amazing teammates time in and time out.

Richard_Skull
12-06-2012, 05:51 PM
My question is, is he even the best Laker ever. Some of you have him close to 2 all times (and that's fine), but I don't even think he's the 2nd best Laker. Magic, Kareem are easily higher. And then it's a mash up with Shaq, West, Elgin Baylor (perhaps the most underrated Laker), and even Wilt played there for like 5 years. Kobe in my opinion is somewhere between 3rd and 6th best Laker, which has to put him between 8th - 15th range in the all-time discussion at best.

Side note: God have the Lakers been blessed with basketball talent.

Eleazar
12-06-2012, 06:01 PM
Kobe is closer to Pippen than MJ, and if it wasn't for Shaq he would just be another Dominique Wilkins.

Ace E.Anderson
12-06-2012, 06:37 PM
Well the typical argument for Kobe's "greatness" is because of his 5 rings, which is great and everything but I always felt like he was the 2nd best player whenever they were really good.

Yeah looking back LBJ's Cleveland team was better, (but god damn how the hell did he lead them to 60+ wins with Mike Brown??! lol). I guess I've just always thought that Kobe, while remarkable, has been blessed with amazing teammates time in and time out.

Bird played with McHale, Parrish, DJ and a broken down Bill Walton. (Not to mention Nate Archibald and Danny Ainge)
Magic played with Kareem, Worthy, and Wilkes
Jordan played with Pippen, Rodman, and Kukoc

Not everyone there is a HOFer, but most of EM were realllly good.

Kobe's played with Shaq and then he played with Pau. Those are the ONLY two HOFers(potential in Pau's case) that Kobe has played with. Maybe he was second to Shaq, but there's no way in hell he was ever second to soft as Charmin Pau Gasol. Idc how skilled he is, Kobe was the man on that team.

colts19
12-06-2012, 06:42 PM
Kobe to me is like K. Malone. He had a long career and in kobe's case he had a lot of career accomplishments. But no one considers K. Malone the greatest Forward ever or even in the top ten of all time.
My list.

Legends that will never be passed.
Bill Russell, when you have more rings than fingers, as the man well you are the MAN.
Wilt, check the record book.
Mj, well its MJ enough said.
Bird and Magic, if you think Kobe is better than either one of these then you never saw them play.
Kareem, well its Kareem. enough said.

Next tier.
In no order
The Dream
Big O
Shaq
Duncan
Walton
West
Lebron
Kobe

I have him at 11 myself, he could get as high as 8 or 9. No way he is ever in the top 6.

ilive4sports
12-06-2012, 06:43 PM
Well the typical argument for Kobe's "greatness" is because of his 5 rings, which is great and everything but I always felt like he was the 2nd best player whenever they were really good.

Yeah looking back LBJ's Cleveland team was better, (but god damn how the hell did he lead them to 60+ wins with Mike Brown??! lol). I guess I've just always thought that Kobe, while remarkable, has been blessed with amazing teammates time in and time out.
You really think that Kobe was the second best player on the back to back teams with Gasol? LMAO dude. Give me a break.

OlBlu
12-06-2012, 06:46 PM
Pretty simple question, where do you think Kobe should be rated at and why?

Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem
Magic

Bird
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Kobe
James

I have Kobe 9th overall but 4th on the Lakers..... Kobe suffers from being much like Michael Jordan....:cool: ...

OlBlu
12-06-2012, 06:48 PM
Kobe to me is like K. Malone. He had a long career and in kobe's case he had a lot of career accomplishments. But no one considers K. Malone the greatest Forward ever or even in the top ten of all time.
My list.

Legends that will never be passed.
Bill Russell, when you have more rings than fingers, as the man well you are the MAN.
Wilt, check the record book.
Mj, well its MJ enough said.
Bird and Magic, if you think Kobe is better than either one of these then you never saw them play.
Kareem, well its Kareem. enough said.

Next tier.
In no order
The Dream
Big O
Shaq
Duncan
Walton
West
Lebron
Kobe

I have him at 11 myself, he could get as high as 8 or 9. No way he is ever in the top 6.

I agree with this and I am changing my post to put Oscar ahead of him....

croz24
12-06-2012, 07:04 PM
Probably not even in my top 15. One of the more overrated players of all time in my opinion. He belongs in a top 20 or so discussion, but in no way is he a top 10 player.

PacersHomer
12-06-2012, 07:07 PM
Oh Hakeem is definitely over him. I forgot about The Dream.

Basketball Fan
12-06-2012, 07:12 PM
At least top 10

glazedham42
12-06-2012, 07:33 PM
Whenever I hear people talk about Kobe's "legendary" status I always think back in my head to game 7 of the 2010 finals. He was wretched that game. 6-24 on FGs and 0-6 from the 3 PT line. 4 TOs and 2 AST. He ended with 24 that game but 11 of them were a gift at the free throw line. With as many shots as he took he should've ended the game with 40. If the refs hadn't bailed out L.A. to the tune of 20 extra free throws they would've gotten blown out by Boston in that game. I'm still not convinced there wasn't some shady officiating going on in that game. I don't know the actual numbers, but I feel like Kobe went to the FT line about 4 times in the last 2 minutes of that game. You can watch all his screw ups below. A legendary player doesn't play like this in a crucial game. Yeah they won, and I understand that sometimes you have to take over the game and all that, but when you are getting double/triple teamed and continue to shoot fadeaway 3's are you really a legend? The lack of basketball IQ in those clips is astounding to me at times. Especially at about 45 seconds into the video when Ray Allen completely puts the clamps on Kobe and his turnound fadeaway jumper hits the side of the backboard. That play to me is the very essence of Kobe Bryant.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6161Cb6GB3E

ChicagoJ
12-06-2012, 07:34 PM
Try this list on for size. I don't have Kobe in the top-10, and I don't necessarily see James making the top-ten either. Neither of them were centers, and there are already too many non-C's on this list for my taste...

1. Wilt
2. Oscar
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Jordan
7. Shaq
8. Kareem
9. Duncan
10. Olajuwan

croz24
12-06-2012, 07:40 PM
I don't think his career has been legendary just yet. Numbers wise, yes. But for all that talent, he only has one ring whereas Kobe has 5.

Thus far, I would say that Lebron has underachieved a bit (in my eyes the most blessed and talented basketball player I've ever seen)


Not saying he wont be legendary one day, and there's no doubt the guy is GREAT. But I still rank Kobe as the best player to come straight from HS to the pros.

Sorry, but Moses Malone is the greatest high school to the pros player of all time, and I personally don't even think it's close. LeBron will likely surpass Moses, but Kobe has not and will not in my eyes.

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 07:47 PM
Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem
Magic

Bird
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Kobe
James

I have Kobe 9th overall but 4th on the Lakers..... Kobe suffers from being much like Michael Jordan....:cool: ...

That's a pretty good list. Kobe in top 10 is about right.

I think LeBron is better than Kobe and right there with Bird and Magic. LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe. He's not as skilled as Bird and Magic though, which I think matters a bit more than physical ability. In terms of strength, speed, etc., he's a smaller version of Chamberlain.

Michael Jordan was unstoppable. He was unstoppable whether he had Pippen on the floor or not. Kukoc wasn't that great and wasn't there much of the time. Rodman came late, although he made it impossible to beat the Bulls. The Bulls could have won 8 or 9 straight championships in the modern era if they wanted to do it. MJ was unstoppable when a typical foul by Charles Oakley might mean broken ribs. He was the greatest competitor and the most effective and amazing basketball player of all time IMO.

Eddie Gill
12-06-2012, 08:15 PM
Controversial opinion alert: Wilt Chamberlain is overrated. In interest of full-disclosure, I never saw the man play - way before my time (like, I presume many others in this thread). I would merely suggest that had he played in an era with Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, even a guy like Ewing, many of these All-Time Greatest lists might look very different. He was a 7'2 giant playing in an era when the average height of a starting center was 6'7. Also, any list with Russell over Wilt is nonsensical. I understand the argument that Russell played on vastly superior teams, but 9 championships to 2 pretty much speaks for itself.

Maybe one of the old-timers on here can set me straight, because I just don't get Wilt being a top 5 player all time.

BlueNGold
12-06-2012, 08:24 PM
Controversial opinion alert: Wilt Chamberlain is overrated. In interest of full-disclosure, I never saw the man play - way before my time (like, I presume many others in this thread). I would merely suggest that had he played in an era with Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, even a guy like Ewing, many of these All-Time Greatest lists might look very different. He was a 7'2 giant playing in an era when the average height of a starting center was 6'7. Also, any list with Russell over Wilt is nonsensical. I understand the argument that Russell played on vastly superior teams, but 9 championships to 2 pretty much speaks for itself.

Maybe one of the old-timers on here can set me straight, because I just don't get Wilt being a top 5 player all time.

You can go on Youtube and see Chamberlain. I saw him in the early 70's and believe he was clearly better than Kareem. A lot more physical and athletic. He was like a bigger and much more skilled Dwight Howard. If he played in the 90's during the big man era, he would totally dominate Ewing. He would be better than the other centers with Hakeem, Kareem and a young Shaq coming in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

Edit: people who never saw Wilt play may not realize how mobile he was. Ewing was nowhere near his level. Imagine LeBron James with about 5 more inches. No, not quite that mobile. But he was a track star before he played basketball and was extremely athletic.

15th parallel
12-06-2012, 08:32 PM
Kobe will probably be in my top 10...probably. But not in my top 5. Yeah his numbers were great. He had a lot of those big moments. He's competitive and has one of the best work ethic and dedication since the draftees of the 80s. Has 5 rings. Has an MVP and 2 finals MVPs (don't remember about all-star games).

But on his first 3 championships he wasn't even the best player. On the last 2 championship runs I can even argue that he's just a bit better than Pau Gasol. And he only won one MVP for a reason. His best was always below Duncan's, KG's, Shaq's Lebrons, even Kidd's (even though he didn't win one MVP) and Nash. His scoring prowess will always be one of the best we have ever seen, but he was not even the best player for most of the time in the league.

BobbyMac
12-06-2012, 09:39 PM
Once you get past Wilt, Oscar and Jordan, the next 20-25 are pretty equal. Kobe is in that group.

Sookie
12-06-2012, 10:05 PM
It's amazing what likeability can do for a player in these rankings.

And MJ ought to feel lucky he didn't play in this era for that reason.

Major Cold
12-06-2012, 10:35 PM
And MJ ought to feel lucky he didn't play in this era for that reason.
Please. No hand checking? MJ would have a field day with the likes of every defender in this league.

DemonHunter1105
12-06-2012, 10:39 PM
Kobe is the ultimate hero ball player. Yes he is amazingly talented, but he has made so many bad decisions over the course of his career. I never want him to touch the ball in the last 2 minutes of a game and with good reason. He won many games in the last few minutes for the Lakers, yet I always think that maybe he wouldn't have needed to if he had just played better before the end.

He is the epitome of a player you do not want your kid to emulate on offense. You wish your kid had his skills and repertoire, but wish he wasn't so dumb half the time. He just happens to make it work half of the time because he is Kobe.

There are so many variables to judging players; teammates he played with, era, position, his #s vs team wins. Ultimately, as long as he is in the top 20 or so, I don't see the point of arguing over a few places because people have different criteria to judge.

The only thing I want to say is that Lebron is the most talented player I have ever seen. Maybe not the "best" if you judge that by rings or something else. I didn't see a lot of older players since I am young, yet I know if I had to start a team with someone in their prime I would pick Lebron 10 times out of 10. That is me personally, but that is the only thing I am sure about as far as ranking players in my mind.

immortality
12-06-2012, 10:58 PM
You guys make it sound as if the best players didn't have superstars surrounding them :/. No one has ever won solo

idioteque
12-06-2012, 11:02 PM
I never really saw Magic and Bird play in their primes. Kobe is the second best I have ever seen, behind MJ. I put him above all the great 90's superstars Malone/Barkley/Ewing/Stockton etc.

The one guy I have way up on lists, higher than most, is Hakeem. I could watch Hakeem play all day. My all time favorite guy to watch other than Reginald.

dohman
12-06-2012, 11:05 PM
You guys make it sound as if the best players didn't have superstars surrounding them :/. No one has ever won solo

Please tell me who is a top 30 player on the mavs roster when they won a title.

Robertmto
12-07-2012, 02:03 AM
Try this list on for size. I don't have Kobe in the top-10, and I don't necessarily see James making the top-ten either. Neither of them were centers, and there are already too many non-C's on this list for my taste...

1. Wilt
2. Oscar
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Jordan
7. Shaq
8. Kareem
9. Duncan
10. Olajuwan

sixth.... wow

Heisenberg
12-07-2012, 02:08 AM
Putting Kobe over Wilt legitimately baffles me.

hackashaq
12-07-2012, 02:50 AM
i don't really understand criteria in these things. in terms of overall achievements? or quality as a player, like who would you draft?

if it's achievements, then it'd probably have to be

1. Russell
2. Kareem
3. Jordan
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Hakeem
7. Larry
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Moses / Shaq / Dr J

PacersandIU
12-07-2012, 04:27 AM
I'm glad to see Duncan making some of these lists... the man goes under the radar as far as how great he is. For some reason, I'll always see him as the young guy playing next to David Robinson... even if he is in his mid- to late-30s.

Another controversial opinion alert: I don't know what it is, but I just can't really give LeBron credit for being much more than a freak athlete and incredible scorer. Maybe that alone puts him in these lists, but regardless, I feel like he needs to average a triple double or something do something outstanding to really stand out amongst the legends that we all agree deserve to be in the top 10 greatest... Kobe carried the Lakers to championships, 81pts, etc. Tim Duncan was the foundation of an incredible era thus putting a franchise on the map for the better half of two decades... LeBron has a couple MVP trophies and a championship-- Steve Nash just needs one ring to have a resume that's almost as good, and I doubt we'd say he deserves the list...

I'm aware of a lot of LeBron hating, but I'm really apathetic towards him at this point, so I'm not saying this because I hate him and am denying his abilities... I just don't see the X-Factor in LBJ that was clearly evident in Kobe, Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc.

Kobe, in my opinion, should rank somewhere just above Hakeem...

joew8302
12-07-2012, 08:21 AM
Here is how I would go:

1. Bill Russell- 11 rights, are you kidding me? And before anyone says "hey, he was on great teams", every team to win a ring has more than 1 player playing greant and Bill Russell was the only person on all 11 teams.
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Shaquille Oneal- sorry, Kobe is great, but was never near as dominant as Shaq
7. Magic Johnson
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10 Larry Bird
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Karl Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Scottie Pippen
15. Kevin McHale

Eleazar
12-07-2012, 08:24 AM
I'm glad to see Duncan making some of these lists... the man goes under the radar as far as how great he is. For some reason, I'll always see him as the young guy playing next to David Robinson... even if he is in his mid- to late-30s.

Another controversial opinion alert: I don't know what it is, but I just can't really give LeBron credit for being much more than a freak athlete and incredible scorer. Maybe that alone puts him in these lists, but regardless, I feel like he needs to average a triple double or something do something outstanding to really stand out amongst the legends that we all agree deserve to be in the top 10 greatest... Kobe carried the Lakers to championships, 81pts, etc. Tim Duncan was the foundation of an incredible era thus putting a franchise on the map for the better half of two decades... LeBron has a couple MVP trophies and a championship-- Steve Nash just needs one ring to have a resume that's almost as good, and I doubt we'd say he deserves the list...

I'm aware of a lot of LeBron hating, but I'm really apathetic towards him at this point, so I'm not saying this because I hate him and am denying his abilities... I just don't see the X-Factor in LBJ that was clearly evident in Kobe, Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc.

Kobe, in my opinion, should rank somewhere just above Hakeem...

LeBron is also only about halfway done with his career though. He still has time to get there. Then again I don't see the "X-Factor" in Kobe.

Doddage
12-07-2012, 08:28 AM
Here is how I would go:

1. Bill Russell- 11 rights, are you kidding me? And before anyone says "hey, he was on great teams", every team to win a ring has more than 1 player playing greant and Bill Russell was the only person on all 11 teams.
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Shaquille Oneal- sorry, Kobe is great, but was never near as dominant as Shaq
7. Magic Johnson
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10 Larry Bird
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Karl Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Scottie Pippen
15. Kevin McHale
Kobe over Duncan, Bird, and Hakeem?

Steagles
12-07-2012, 08:39 AM
I think Kobe is an all time great player, but not an all time legend. This group would consist of Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, and Bird. All time greats include players like Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Olajuwon, etc. If Kobe gets another ring, then he can be considered for legend status.


Sent from #PacerNation using Tapatalk

hackashaq
12-07-2012, 08:55 AM
I'm surprised Oscar is so high on some of the lists.

joew8302
12-07-2012, 09:17 AM
Kobe over Duncan, Bird, and Hakeem?

Sure, why not? If you look at a lot of statistics, clutchness and rights Kobe compares very favorably to those three.

15th parallel
12-07-2012, 09:26 AM
I'm glad to see Duncan making some of these lists... the man goes under the radar as far as how great he is. For some reason, I'll always see him as the young guy playing next to David Robinson... even if he is in his mid- to late-30s.

Another controversial opinion alert: I don't know what it is, but I just can't really give LeBron credit for being much more than a freak athlete and incredible scorer. Maybe that alone puts him in these lists, but regardless, I feel like he needs to average a triple double or something do something outstanding to really stand out amongst the legends that we all agree deserve to be in the top 10 greatest... Kobe carried the Lakers to championships, 81pts, etc. Tim Duncan was the foundation of an incredible era thus putting a franchise on the map for the better half of two decades... LeBron has a couple MVP trophies and a championship-- Steve Nash just needs one ring to have a resume that's almost as good, and I doubt we'd say he deserves the list...

I'm aware of a lot of LeBron hating, but I'm really apathetic towards him at this point, so I'm not saying this because I hate him and am denying his abilities... I just don't see the X-Factor in LBJ that was clearly evident in Kobe, Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc.

Kobe, in my opinion, should rank somewhere just above Hakeem...

On LeBron, it's still too early to say. But there is the potential to be an All-time great. He has proven that in his years with Cleveland. And he has shown that in just a few years in Miami. And most of the legends are known to be freak athletes anyway (Jordan, Wilt, Magic Kareem just to name a few).

On Kobe, in his 3 championships he wasn't even the best player. In his last 2 championships, I even consider Pau to be almost as good as Kobe. He's an elite SG, sure. But considering all the players within his generation, there are more players that I consider better than him, so in my list it's really hard for him to crack top 10 considering all generations of NBA players. And Kobe is no better than Hakeem for me.

dohman
12-07-2012, 09:28 AM
How are you guys judging? Is it by the overall career, or by how good the person was in their prime? I don't think the top 10 can be ranked. The differences in the game are to large from decade to decade. There is no way to know how players really stacked up against each other.

Eleazar
12-07-2012, 09:39 AM
I'm surprised Oscar is so high on some of the lists.

He tends to get more love from Hoosiers than people outside of Indiana. Most of us are amazed that he was able to average a triple double. He averaged 12 free throw attempts in one season, and averaged 10 or more FTA all throughout the 60's. Statistically there really aren't many, if any, players who compare to him. He played before they kept track of blocks and steals, so who knows how well he stacks up in those categories. His legend gets held back though because of his lack of championships and MVPs (he had 1 of each), but because Wilt and Russell dominated those two categories while he played. It is kind of like being a SG during the 90's. You could have been the second best SG of all-time, but you weren't Jordan so it didn't matter.

BillS
12-07-2012, 10:19 AM
Maybe one of the old-timers on here can set me straight, because I just don't get Wilt being a top 5 player all time.

Let's put it this way. The league changed their rules to try to keep Wilt from completely dominating the game - and failed. Many of the other players you mentioned had rules overlooked (see Shaq: Charge and Ewing: Travel) because of their perceived greatness.

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 10:42 AM
I'm surprised Oscar is so high on some of the lists.

Oscar was by far the biggest and best point guard of his time. He averaged a triple double one season. He was a complete player and only because of Magic Johnson is he not in the top five.....:cool: ...

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 10:49 AM
Putting Kobe over Wilt legitimately baffles me.

I think putting just about anyone over Wilt would baffle me. I do it with Jordan but if both were coming out of the same draft, I would take Wilt over Jordan. Most people will disagree with that but Wilt could do anything he wanted to do and he was the greatest rebounder of all time. He would be a different player in the modern game but he was an athlete that could do it. Wilt could run the floor like no other center ever whenever he wanted to do it. He as a great passer and he led the league in assists at least once. Defensively, no one (including Dwight Howard and Shaq) would come close to him. If they had kept stats on blocks then, that record would be out of reach. :cool: ... Wilt was not allowed to enter the NBA until his college class graduated. He could have played right out of high school with the same results. Think about adding another 15,000 or so points to his record. Kareem would have scored more too but not as many as Wilt....:cool: ...

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 10:54 AM
You can go on Youtube and see Chamberlain. I saw him in the early 70's and believe he was clearly better than Kareem. A lot more physical and athletic. He was like a bigger and much more skilled Dwight Howard. If he played in the 90's during the big man era, he would totally dominate Ewing. He would be better than the other centers with Hakeem, Kareem and a young Shaq coming in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

Edit: people who never saw Wilt play may not realize how mobile he was. Ewing was nowhere near his level. Imagine LeBron James with about 5 more inches. No, not quite that mobile. But he was a track star before he played basketball and was extremely athletic.

I also saw Wilt go against Kareem at the end of his career and you are correct, Wilt was a whole lot better. Wilt was the best rebounder to ever play the game. He was also a great defender and shot blocker. He was as strong or stronger than Shaq and much more mobile. They changed the rules for Shaq. If he had played like that in Wilt's day, he would have fouled out of every game in the first quarter.....:cool: ...

BobbyMac
12-07-2012, 10:56 AM
I'm surprised Oscar is so high on some of the lists.

Oscar was one of the very best. He scored 30 points a game and still averaged ~ 9.5 assists, not to mention his rebounding. He was cursed by playing on a team that was not quite good enough to beat the Celtics in the playoffs. When he teamed with a young Jabbar he won the championship. He is the only player in the history of the NBA to have a triple double in his first game. He was the most dominate guard I ever saw play in the NBA.

BobbyMac
12-07-2012, 10:57 AM
I also saw Wilt go against Kareem at the end of his career and you are correct, Wilt was a whole lot better. Wilt was the best rebounder to ever play the game. He was also a great defender and shot blocker. He was as strong or stronger than Shaq and much more mobile. They changed the rules for Shaq. If he had played like that in Wilt's day, he would have fouled out of every game in the first quarter.....:cool: ...

Very well put.

ChicagoJ
12-07-2012, 01:30 PM
sixth.... wow

Yeah, I've moved him up a bit on the list after listening to the folks up here for a decade or so blab on about his overrated airness. :devil:

Trader Joe
12-07-2012, 01:44 PM
Some of these lists....well I don't even think they deserve to be commented on.

spreedom
12-07-2012, 01:51 PM
He's in my top ten for sure, but I really can't rank guys too much more specifically than that. TBH I have a ton of common ground with Bill Simmons as far as how guys like Jordan and Russell are ranked, but below those two I think the next 10-15 guys are all relatively even. For modern, active players, I think Duncan has had a better all-around career, and LeBron at his peak has been better than Kobe at his peak. FWIW

Pacergeek
12-07-2012, 03:10 PM
Just as good as Jordan. 5 rings to 6 is close

Sookie
12-07-2012, 03:16 PM
Please. No hand checking? MJ would have a field day with the likes of every defender in this league.

That's not what I meant.

If MJ played in an era where fans and media demanded likeability from an athlete 24/7 in order to be considered "a legend" or top 5 all time, he wouldn't be. Because quite frankly, MJ makes Kobe look like a sweet heart. (although, funny enough, I find Kobe to be his most likeable when he's being an *******. )

I mean heck, look at Lebron. Sure, he has some entitlement issues, but for most of his career being liked was more important to him than being the best. The worst thing the guy ever did was move to Florida to play with his BFF...and he still managed to have a time period where he was the most hated athlete in America.

Right now, Kobe isn't ranked where he should be, in terms of "all time great" because of that whole "likeability" thing. Don't get me wrong, it's partially (mostly) his fault. He has zero charisma or really any social skills. He's arrogant, cheesy, demanding, intense..and when he tries to appear nice, it comes off as being fake.

I mean heck, I love Steve Nash, I do. But the media essentially made up reasons as to why Nash deserved MVP over Kobe, twice. Because they didn't want to give Kobe the award. Because they didn't like him. (Because apparently, taking a team that plays Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, and Luke Walton, rotation minutes to the playoffs isn't making the team better..)

Measure Kobe's career up to anyone's in the areas that he can control (IE, not media awards), and I don't know how he's not at least top 5.

Sollozzo
12-07-2012, 03:28 PM
his overrated airness.

What more could Jordan have possibly done? Guy was still dominating the league in his mid 30's. He was basically perfect in every conceivable way.

Sollozzo
12-07-2012, 03:47 PM
Controversial opinion alert: Wilt Chamberlain is overrated. In interest of full-disclosure, I never saw the man play - way before my time (like, I presume many others in this thread). I would merely suggest that had he played in an era with Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, even a guy like Ewing, many of these All-Time Greatest lists might look very different. He was a 7'2 giant playing in an era when the average height of a starting center was 6'7. Also, any list with Russell over Wilt is nonsensical. I understand the argument that Russell played on vastly superior teams, but 9 championships to 2 pretty much speaks for itself.

Maybe one of the old-timers on here can set me straight, because I just don't get Wilt being a top 5 player all time.

I agree. Championships matter far more in basketball than football or baseball when it comes to ranking all-time greats. In football you can only play one side of the field and in baseball you can only bat 4 or 5 times. But in basketball you have the opportunity to dominate both ends of the court.

Winning only two championships in an era where there were like 14 teams just isn't enough to be labeled a top 3 all time player, IMO. I don't see how anyone could put him over Jordan when Jordan won 6 championships in an era where there were far more teams, not to mention a far better talent pool of athletes. There was literally nothing else that Jordan could have accomplished in his career. The man did it all. With Wilt OTOH, there will always be a "yeah, but....." Wilt is not top 3.

Now I obviously never saw Wilt play, but I'm going to presume that the majority of the people commenting here didn't either. He last played in 1973, so you'd have to be in your early 50's to have any memory of him. You'd have to be closer to 60 to have any clear memory of him during the prime of his career.

Since86
12-07-2012, 04:02 PM
I know Russell played with atleast 6-7 other HOF players on the Celtics, but I'm not sure how many Wilt ever had. Anyone know?

When you compare individual stats, Wilt blows Russell out of the water. They both averaged 22rebs for their entire careers (crazy) but Wilt doubled Bill's scoring average. 30.1ppg average compared to 15.1ppg average.

Russell's fg% of 44% isn't very good, compared to 54% for Wilt.

Sollozzo
12-07-2012, 04:11 PM
I know Russell played with atleast 6-7 other HOF players on the Celtics, but I'm not sure how many Wilt ever had. Anyone know?




I'm not for sure. He did have Elgin Baylor for 3 of his 5 Laker years and Jerry West for all 5 of them.

ChicagoJ
12-07-2012, 04:13 PM
It took Russell and seven other HoF'ers to beat Wilt's one-man teams in Philly and SF. Championships are a team award, not an individual award and to rank Russell higher than Wilt simply because Russell had better teammates is something that misses the mark.

If that's your criteria, just run a link to this page: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_championships.html I don't agree with this concept as teams win championships and plenty of great individual players haven't been blessed to be on championship-quality rosters.

And if that's your criteria, you're seriously underrating Kareem Adbul Jabbar as well. With six championships each, you couldn't have him much lower than Jordan. Hey, Kareem won championships without Magic. (He won them with Oscar. :devil: )

It always comes back to this for me: The NBA kept changing the rules (three seconds, widening the lane, etc.) to make it more difficult for Wilt to dominate. And they kept bending the rules (an extra step, generous foul calls) to help Jordan dominate. Wilt was often playing 1-on-7 (or 1-on-8 if there were three refs, don't remember when that changed). Jordan was playing 8-on-5.

Much more respect for Wilt.

(End note, Wilt was probably the third or forth best player on those Lakers teams at the end of his career, that wasn't Wilt at his prime.)

Sollozzo
12-07-2012, 04:20 PM
I know Russell played with atleast 6-7 other HOF players on the Celtics, but I'm not sure how many Wilt ever had. Anyone know?


Also, yeah Russell definitely played with better players. But Wilt often didn't even get far enough to play Russell. He was on the Warriors for 6 years, but they only made the Finals one time. And that's when there were like 5 teams in a conference.

Look at his 1962-63 season for example. He averaged 44.8 pts and 24 boards. Those are cartoon-ish stats, but they didn't translate to wins. The Warriors went 31-49 that year. I get that he didn't have as great of a cast as Russel, but 31 wins?

Since86
12-07-2012, 04:24 PM
Look at his 1962-63 season for example. He averaged 44.8 pts and 24 boards. Those are cartoon-ish stats, but they didn't translate to wins. The Warriors went 31-49 that year. I get that he didn't have as great of a cast as Russel, but 31 wins?

You asked a question earlier about Jordan that is pretty applicable here. What else did he need to do? His freakish stats not translating to wins indicates that his teammates were horrible, not that Russell was better.

Sure, one player is equal to 20% of production on the floor, but that means 80% comes from others. How many championships someone wins, or how many games they win, doesn't tell me much about how good an individual player was, it tells me how good his team was.

I'm not arguing one way or the other, I think UB's rule about not commenting on people you haven't seen is a pretty good rule for this type of discussion, I'm just pointing out the flaws in the argument.

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 04:29 PM
I'm not for sure. He did have Elgin Baylor for 3 of his 5 Laker years and Jerry West for all 5 of them.

Baylor was over the hill and nothing like the player he once was. West was still great and many people think that one of those teams was the best of all time....:cool: ...

Since86
12-07-2012, 04:32 PM
I've always heard that Russell was willing to give up personal stats to win, and I've always taken that to mean that he didn't score as much as he could have, but just looking over his career numbers and something just jumps out at me like a sore thumb.

Russell never shot better than 50% in any season. His personal high was 46.7%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.html

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 04:33 PM
I agree. Championships matter far more in basketball than football or baseball when it comes to ranking all-time greats. In football you can only play one side of the field and in baseball you can only bat 4 or 5 times. But in basketball you have the opportunity to dominate both ends of the court.

Winning only two championships in an era where there were like 14 teams just isn't enough to be labeled a top 3 all time player, IMO. I don't see how anyone could put him over Jordan when Jordan won 6 championships in an era where there were far more teams, not to mention a far better talent pool of athletes. There was literally nothing else that Jordan could have accomplished in his career. The man did it all. With Wilt OTOH, there will always be a "yeah, but....." Wilt is not top 3.

Now I obviously never saw Wilt play, but I'm going to presume that the majority of the people commenting here didn't either. He last played in 1973, so you'd have to be in your early 50's to have any memory of him. You'd have to be closer to 60 to have any clear memory of him during the prime of his career.

I saw him as a rookie in 1956, I think. I saw Wilt through his entire career. He didn't win many championships because Russell had all of the talent on his team. When Wilt had talent with him like Hal Greer and Jerry West, those teams are considered two of the best of all time. Jordan didn't win until Pippin and others joined him. Wilt never had a cast like that. Wilt routinely led the league in rebounding and would have led in blocked shots if that stat had been kept. He could score 50 points per game or lead the league in assists if that is what his team needed from him..... I would start any all time team with Wilt and have no worry that I was right. :cool: ...

Sollozzo
12-07-2012, 04:33 PM
It took Russell and seven other HoF'ers to beat Wilt's one-man teams in Philly and SF.

What about all of the other teams that beat Wilt when he was a Warrior? It's not like he was making it to the Finals every year, only to lose to the loaded Celtics teams. He only played the Celtics once in his six year tenure as a Warrior, meaning that it was the other teams in the West who were usually knocking Wilt out in the playoffs. So clearly it didn't take 7 Celtics HOFers to knock Wilt out. Most of the time it took much less. Were the other teams in the West really that much better than the Warriors? Or is it possible that one player shooting the ball 34 times a game is not exactly the best formula for winning?

If one is going to rank Wilt as high as 1-3, then they inevitably have to make excuses for his glaring lack of postseason success. There's no excuses needed for Jordan. The man literally accomplished every single thing an athlete could accomplish. Are championships the only important factor? Of course not. But we're talking about basketball, a sport where one player can dominate the game on both ends. If we're talking all-time greats, then I'm going to give the edge to the player with 6 rings over the one with 2, especially when the one with 6 played in a much deeper era against far better athletes.

Since86
12-07-2012, 04:41 PM
I'm going to use a Bill Simmons argument here for Wilt.


One more note on this: we get carried away with basketball statistics nowadays, as evidenced by the new book that rated Allen Iverson as the 90th best player in the league during his MVP season. Why make it so complicated? Just add up the point, rebound and assist averages for franchise guys during the playoffs: If the number tops 42, you're probably talking about a pantheon guy. You could even call it the 42 Club, just as exclusive as the Five-Timer Club on SNL, only without the NBA equivalent of Elliott Gould.



Since it's my idea, I only allowed guys who played 13 or more playoff games in one postseason to be eligible, since that's a legitimate sampling (more than a month of basketball at the highest level). Here's what the 42 Club looks like since the ABA/NBA merger in 1976:

Michael Jordan (six times) -- 49.4 ('89); 50.7 ('90); 45.9 ('91); 46.5 ('92); 47.8 ('93); 43.8 ('97)
Shaquille O'Neal (four times) -- 43.6 ('98); 49.2 ('00); 49.0 ('01); 43.9 ('02)
Larry Bird (four times) -- 42.0 ('81); 44.4 ('84); 43.4 ('86); 44.2 ('87)
Moses Malone (twice) -- 43.0 ('81), 43.3 ('83)
Magic Johnson (twice) -- 43.8 ('86), 42.5 ('91)
Karl Malone (twice) -- 43.0 ('92), 42.9 ('94)
Hakeem Olajuwon (twice) -- 44.2 ('94), 47.8 ('95)
Tim Duncan (twice) -- 42.7 ('01), 45.4 ('03)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 47.1 ('80)
Charles Barkley -- 44.5 ('93)
Kobe Bryant -- 42.8 ('01)
Allen Iverson -- 43.7 ('01)
Kevin Garnett -- 44.0 ('04)
LeBron James -- 44.7 ('06)
Dirk Nowitzki -- 45.1 ('06, ongoing)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060602

Wilt had a season where he scored 62. 28ppg 30rpg 3apg.
Russell's best was 54. 19ppg 30rpg 5apg

Those are just ridiculous numbers, and not sure why they get diluted just because he wasn't good enough to overcome the rest of his teammates. If he choked during pressure situations, then that would change the ballgame, but looks like Wilt more than carried expectations.

EDIT: And it's crazy to see these guys averaging 48mins per game some seasons (playoffs). Wilt actually averaged 48.5mins in 67-68.
EDIT2: Wilt belongs in that 42pt club 11 times, out of 13. 10 of 13 for Russell.

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 04:48 PM
Controversial opinion alert: Wilt Chamberlain is overrated. In interest of full-disclosure, I never saw the man play - way before my time (like, I presume many others in this thread). I would merely suggest that had he played in an era with Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, even a guy like Ewing, many of these All-Time Greatest lists might look very different. He was a 7'2 giant playing in an era when the average height of a starting center was 6'7. Also, any list with Russell over Wilt is nonsensical. I understand the argument that Russell played on vastly superior teams, but 9 championships to 2 pretty much speaks for itself.

Maybe one of the old-timers on here can set me straight, because I just don't get Wilt being a top 5 player all time.


Wilt the Stilt was JUST AWESOME. He was so unbelieveably athletic, agile, and mobile. The greatest big man EVER!! He could be said the greatest BB player ever.

The problem I have with this thread is that few posters on this board have seen players who played in the 50's 60's, or 70's. If you never saw them play, you are at a great disadvantage ranking players.

Wilt was THE player in his time! He was head and shoulders above the rest. Chamberlain didn't have the quality of players surrounding him like Russell did, thus he didn't win Championships, but what he did do was make his team championship caliber contenders by himself. Most don't remember or know Wilt's 1st team was the Phiadelphia Warriors. Quick name another player on that team without goggling the answer. I watched many a game of Wilt's, and that's why I can say how GREAT he was!

How many are aware after the NBA that Wilt played volleyball? He was an ATHLETE personified!

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 04:56 PM
What about all of the other teams that beat Wilt when he was a Warrior? It's not like he was making it to the Finals every year, only to lose to the loaded Celtics teams. He only played the Celtics once in his six year tenure as a Warrior, meaning that it was the other teams in the West who were usually knocking Wilt out in the playoffs. So clearly it didn't take 7 Celtics HOFers to knock Wilt out. Most of the time it took much less. Were the other teams in the West really that much better than the Warriors? Or is it possible that one player shooting the ball 34 times a game is not exactly the best formula for winning?

If one is going to rank Wilt as high as 1-3, then they inevitably have to make excuses for his glaring lack of postseason success. There's no excuses needed for Jordan. The man literally accomplished every single thing an athlete could accomplish. Are championships the only important factor? Of course not. But we're talking about basketball, a sport where one player can dominate the game on both ends. If we're talking all-time greats, then I'm going to give the edge to the player with 6 rings over the one with 2, especially when the one with 6 played in a much deeper era against far better athletes.

If Jordan had played against Wilt, he would have been reduced to a jump shooter. Wilt would not have let him score close to the basket. Jordan was a great leaper but so was Wilt and he was about 8 to 9 inches taller with longer arms...... Read what Russell had to say about Wilt. He begged his teammate not to make him angry because he had to try and guard him and he said Wilt could jump out of the arena...... Wilt got the job done in the playoffs when he had good teammates. Russell played with most all hall of famers. Wilt did not. Wilt dominated every team including the Celtics but his teammates were really wanting..... Put Wilt playing with Oscar Robertson and you would have had multiple championships right in Russells face. Oscar was great but he didn't do much in the playoffs until he joined Kareem and won a title as an old man. Put Wilt with Hal Greer and you have one of the great teams of all time. Put him with Jerry West and perhaps you have the greatest single year team and both Wilt and West were past their best days when that happened...... The NBA was stronger in those days because there were so few teams.... I also saw Wilt block a sky hook.....:cool: ...

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 04:57 PM
Wilt the Stilt was JUST AWESOME. He was so unbelieveably athletic, agile, and mobile. The greatest big man EVER!! He could be said the greatest BB player ever.

The problem I have with this thread is that few posters on this board have seen players who played in the 50's 60's, or 70's. If you never saw them play, you are at a great disadvantage ranking players.

Wilt was THE player in his time! He was head and shoulders above the rest. Chamberlain didn't have the quality of players surrounding him like Russell did, thus he didn't win Championships, but what he did do was make his team championship caliber contenders by himself. Most don't remember or know Wilt's 1st team was the Phiadelphia Warriors. Quick name another player on that team without goggling the answer. I watched many a game of Wilt's, and that's why I can say how GREAT he was!

How many are aware after the NBA that Wilt played volleyball? He was an ATHLETE personified!

I think Guy Rogers and Paul Arizan were on those teams.....:cool: ...

Sollozzo
12-07-2012, 04:59 PM
If Jordan had played against Wilt, he would have been reduced to a jump shooter. Wilt would not have let him score close to the basket. Jordan was a great leaper but so was Wilt and he was about 8 to 9 inches taller with longer arms...... Read what Russell had to say about Wilt. He begged his teammate not to make him angry because he had to try and guard him and he said Wilt could jump out of the arena...... Wilt got the job done in the playoffs when he had good teammates. Russell played with most all hall of famers. Wilt did not. Wilt dominated every team including the Celtics but his teammates were really wanting..... Put Wilt playing with Oscar Robertson and you would have had multiple championships right in Russells face. Oscar was great but he didn't do much in the playoffs until he joined Kareem and won a title as an old man. Put Wilt with Hal Greer and you have one of the great teams of all time. Put him with Jerry West and perhaps you have the greatest single year team and both Wilt and West were past their best days when that happened...... The NBA was stronger in those days because there were so few teams.... I also saw Wilt block a sky hook.....:cool: ...


I appreciate what you have to say on this because you saw him play and I didn't. You've offered some interesting insight. Thanks.

And let me clarify that I'm not debating his all-time great status, because clearly he is one of the best ever. I was just debating his top 3 status and ChiJ having him ranked over 45.

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 05:09 PM
I appreciate what you have to say on this because you saw him play and I didn't. You've offered some interesting insight. Thanks.

And let me clarify that I'm not debating his all-time great status, because clearly he is one of the best ever. I was just debating his top 3 status and ChiJ having him ranked over 45.

The first time I saw Wilt play (I was about 9 years old at the time), he played for the Harlem Globetrotters because he had to wait a year to turn pro. He was awesome. He did not clowning but he was making thunderous dunks and leading fast breaks. He was clearly the best athlete on that team.....:cool: ...

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 05:11 PM
Wilt the Stilt was JUST AWESOME. He was so unbelieveably athletic, agile, and mobile. The greatest big man EVER!! He could be said the greatest BB player ever.

The problem I have with this thread is that few posters on this board have seen players who played in the 50's 60's, or 70's. If you never saw them play, you are at a great disadvantage ranking players.

Wilt was THE player in his time! He was head and shoulders above the rest. Chamberlain didn't have the quality of players surrounding him like Russell did, thus he didn't win Championships, but what he did do was make his team championship caliber contenders by himself. Most don't remember or know Wilt's 1st team was the Phiadelphia Warriors. Quick name another player on that team without goggling the answer. I watched many a game of Wilt's, and that's why I can say how GREAT he was!

How many are aware after the NBA that Wilt played volleyball? He was an ATHLETE personified!

Wilt hated be called "the stilt". His favorite nickname was "The Big Dipper". We are also forgetting about his most impressive athletic achievement, Wilt's 20,000...... :cool: ...

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 05:20 PM
What about all of the other teams that beat Wilt when he was a Warrior? It's not like he was making it to the Finals every year, only to lose to the loaded Celtics teams. He only played the Celtics once in his six year tenure as a Warrior, meaning that it was the other teams in the West who were usually knocking Wilt out in the playoffs. So clearly it didn't take 7 Celtics HOFers to knock Wilt out. Most of the time it took much less. Were the other teams in the West really that much better than the Warriors? Or is it possible that one player shooting the ball 34 times a game is not exactly the best formula for winning?

If one is going to rank Wilt as high as 1-3, then they inevitably have to make excuses for his glaring lack of postseason success. There's no excuses needed for Jordan. The man literally accomplished every single thing an athlete could accomplish. Are championships the only important factor? Of course not. But we're talking about basketball, a sport where one player can dominate the game on both ends. If we're talking all-time greats, then I'm going to give the edge to the player with 6 rings over the one with 2, especially when the one with 6 played in a much deeper era against far better athletes.


I doubt you were even born when Wilt laced up his sneakers on a NBA BB court, yet you know how great Wilt was! Or that Philly gave Wilt a blank contract to fill in his own salary. Which was 1 mil. The 1st million dollar pro athlete.

You talking about Wilt would be like me talking about Dan Patch. Before my time, just a name I've heard others talk about. I CAN talk about Wilt, b/c I saw him play from the beginning of his career to his retirement. Your wrong about how great Wilt was! Again, Wilt never had the players surrounding him Russell had, so his early teams weren't that good. But that doesn't change how great he was.

P/s Ted Williams was one of the "all time great baseball players", AND he NEVER won a World Series. I don't believe the Bosox ever won the American league pennant while he played for them. Doesn't mean he wasn't great then nor does it mean he wouldn't be great today.

PacerDude
12-07-2012, 05:31 PM
Or is it possible that one player shooting the ball 34 times a game is not exactly the best formula for winning?
When one shoots 55% from the field - I don't see how that could be a negative.

And there were seasons when he was well over 60%. His last season in the league he shot 73%. And led the league in rebounding. He decided one year to lead the league in assists. He did. The guy was simply incredible.

Now, about his 20,000+ ............... http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/138698

Sollozzo
12-07-2012, 05:48 PM
I doubt you were even born when Wilt laced up his sneakers on a NBA BB court, yet you know how great Wilt was! Or that Philly gave Wilt a blank contract to fill in his own salary. Which was 1 mil. The 1st million dollar pro athlete.

You talking about Wilt would be like me talking about Dan Patch. Before my time, just a name I've heard others talk about. I CAN talk about Wilt, b/c I saw him play from the beginning of his career to his retirement. Your wrong about how great Wilt was! Again, Wilt never had the players surrounding him Russell had, so his early teams weren't that good. But that doesn't change how great he was.
.

I wasn't alive on December 7, 1941, but I know that Pearl Harbor was bombed 71 years ago today. Since when is it a requirement that one has to have seen a player play in person before they can put them on something as dubious and trivial as an "all-time list" on a freaking internet message board? I bet like 80% of the people here never watched Wilt play either.

Clearly someone who watched Wilt is going to know more about him than someone like me who wasn't alive at the time, which is why I thanked Olblu. But the problem here is that most people on this forum never saw him play either. Are you saying that everyone who wasn't alive when Wilt played should be forbidden from commenting on him, or are you only singling me out because you didn't like what I had to say?

Justin Tyme
12-07-2012, 06:07 PM
I wasn't alive on December 7, 1941, but I know that Pearl Harbor was bombed 71 years ago today. Since when is it a requirement that one has to have seen a player play in person before they can put them on something as dubious and trivial as an "all-time list"? I bet like 80% of the people here never watched Wilt play either.

Clearly someone who watched Wilt is going to know more about him than someone like me who wasn't alive at the time, which is why I thanked Olblu. But the problem here is that most people on this forum never saw him play either. Are you saying that everyone who wasn't alive when Wilt played should be forbidden from commenting on him, or are you only singling me out because you didn't like what I had to say?


I'm not singling you out. I'm just saying you or others who never saw Wilt play can't truly evaluate his greatness. You were never blessed to see his Greatness 1st hand. That winning Championships isn't a criteria that GREATNESS should be based upon. Some seem to feel it is. I could name many great old time baseball players who never won a World Series that are still ALLTIME GREAT players.

colts19
12-07-2012, 07:28 PM
I agree. Championships matter far more in basketball than football or baseball when it comes to ranking all-time greats. In football you can only play one side of the field and in baseball you can only bat 4 or 5 times. But in basketball you have the opportunity to dominate both ends of the court.

Winning only two championships in an era where there were like 14 teams just isn't enough to be labeled a top 3 all time player, IMO. I don't see how anyone could put him over Jordan when Jordan won 6 championships in an era where there were far more teams, not to mention a far better talent pool of athletes. There was literally nothing else that Jordan could have accomplished in his career. The man did it all. With Wilt OTOH, there will always be a "yeah, but....." Wilt is not top 3.

Now I obviously never saw Wilt play, but I'm going to presume that the majority of the people commenting here didn't either. He last played in 1973, so you'd have to be in your early 50's to have any memory of him. You'd have to be closer to 60 to have any clear memory of him during the prime of his career.

I am 65 so I remember when Wilt played. I also will admit that the NBA was not what it is now as there were very few games one tv. You can make all the numbers mean what ever you want but when it comes to Wilt the numbers mean he was by far the best most dominate player ever. The thing about having fewer teams is that every team had several good players. When Jordan played and won his championships the league had expanded and the talent pool was really spread out. So when Jordan played he had another top 5 player (Pippen) on his team. No other team had 2 top 5 players. Also Jordan never won ship when bird and Magic were in their prime. As a matter of fact Bird's record in games against Jordan was 24 wins to 16 losses. Jordan record in the playoffs against Bird was 0 and 6. Two best of 5 series and he couldn't even win 1 game. Nike and Pippen made Jordan the greatest of all time, just not to me. Give me Wilt everytime.

OlBlu
12-07-2012, 07:36 PM
I am 65 so I remember when Wilt played. I also will admit that the NBA was not what it is now as there were very few games one tv. You can make all the numbers mean what ever you want but when it comes to Wilt the numbers mean he was by far the best most dominate player ever. The thing about having fewer teams is that every team had several good players. When Jordan played and won his championships the league had expanded and the talent pool was really spread out. So when Jordan played he had another top 5 player (Pippen) on his team. No other team had 2 top 5 players. Also Jordan never won ship when bird and Magic were in their prime. As a matter of fact Bird's record in games against Jordan was 24 wins to 16 losses. Jordan record in the playoffs against Bird was 0 and 6. Two best of 5 series and he couldn't even win 1 game. Nike and Pippen made Jordan the greatest of all time, just not to me. Give me Wilt everytime.

I too am 65 and I saw Wilt in all of those years too. I agree with every word you say here. :cool: ...

Pacergeek
12-07-2012, 08:17 PM
Both Wilt and Russell were way before my time, but I'll put in my 2 cents anyways. Wilt was better. Older people that I've spoken to about Wilt, describe him as inhuman, unstoppable force. Russell has the hardware, but you need to look into more of their accomplishments besides the championships. 100 points...I doubt this will ever happen again in the NBA. Another reason Wilt is better is because Bill Simmons says Russell is better. Simmons is almost always wrong when it comes to player evaluations

BlueNGold
12-07-2012, 08:23 PM
I also saw Wilt go against Kareem at the end of his career and you are correct, Wilt was a whole lot better. Wilt was the best rebounder to ever play the game. He was also a great defender and shot blocker. He was as strong or stronger than Shaq and much more mobile. They changed the rules for Shaq. If he had played like that in Wilt's day, he would have fouled out of every game in the first quarter.....:cool: ...

I think Kareem is an excellent measuring stick and Wilt was clearly a better player. At the same time, I don't think Kareem matched up all that well with Wilt. Wilt was too powerful. I think Shaq and Hakeem would have given him more problems.

Also, I think the 90's was the strongest era of big men and it didn't end with the Shaqs, Robinsons, Kareems, Hakeems and Ewings. I think Wilt was better than any of them, but I think that era would have been more challenging for him. Mourning and Mutombo are a couple others that would have defended Wilt fairly well.

Slick Pinkham
12-07-2012, 11:18 PM
'71 or '72 playoff game, Old Wilt, young Kareem, 7 blocks by Wilt on Kareem, 2 on one possession:

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/089/4/1/skyhookgif3_by_dantheman9758-d4uenol.gif

In an 8 team, two division league, when with Philly he would face Russell over 20 times a year including playoffs. He faced Hall of Famers weekly. The crack about "average centers being 6'7" tall" is made up BS. Heights were measured barefoot and he faced the 6 '9 1/2" Russell (with freakish length), 6'11" Bellamy, 6"11" Thurmond, 7"0' Counts, 6"9' Pettit, and others. The smallest starting center I am aware of in he era was Red Kerr of the Bulls at 6"8".

Wilt had his 55 rebound game being guarded by Russell, the best defender ever. The year Wilt averaged 50, he averaged over 45 against Russell. Before Wilt's rookie year no NBA player had ever averaged even 30 ppg, so the game was largely transformed by him and also by the Celtics passing/fast break style, which many copied.

BlueNGold
12-08-2012, 10:26 AM
Wow. Wilt is mid 30's and blocks a fade away sky hook. That ball was still going up.

Sollozzo
12-08-2012, 11:43 AM
I'm not singling you out. I'm just saying you or others who never saw Wilt play can't truly evaluate his greatness. You were never blessed to see his Greatness 1st hand. That winning Championships isn't a criteria that GREATNESS should be based upon. Some seem to feel it is. I could name many great old time baseball players who never won a World Series that are still ALLTIME GREAT players.

I agree that championships aren't the only indicator. However, championships in basketball are more important than in football or baseball when it comes to judging individual greatness. In baseball, you can only bat 4 or 5 times a game. In football, you can only play one end of the field. However, in basketball you have the unique opportunity to dominate at both ends of the court. That's what Jordan did. He literally willed the Bulls to championships. In 1998, the Pacers and Jazz were both probably better overall teams than Chicago. Pip had been hurt all year and wasn't the same as in prior years. But Jordan literally willed the Bulls to victory. Putting a team on your back and leading it to a championship like MJ did 6 times matters a helluva lot in a debate like this.

Hicks
12-08-2012, 11:58 AM
What more could Jordan have possibly done? Guy was still dominating the league in his mid 30's. He was basically perfect in every conceivable way.

Not to mention he was still potent enough as a Wizard, clearly past his prime, to score 51 points in December of 2001 and over 40 points thee different times in 2002-03.

Hicks
12-08-2012, 12:00 PM
This is kind of random, but I wish I could see a team of 86 Bird playing with 96 Jordan on a team otherwise filled with good role players and just see what happened. I'd love that.

Hicks
12-08-2012, 12:04 PM
I know Russell played with atleast 6-7 other HOF players on the Celtics, but I'm not sure how many Wilt ever had. Anyone know?

When you compare individual stats, Wilt blows Russell out of the water. They both averaged 22rebs for their entire careers (crazy) but Wilt doubled Bill's scoring average. 30.1ppg average compared to 15.1ppg average.

Russell's fg% of 44% isn't very good, compared to 54% for Wilt.

I just never know how to translate their era to the modern one or even the 80s or 90s NBA. I tend to think they wouldn't do nearly as well today (particularly Russell at his size and skill set) with those same bodies/talent, though they would still be good or very good players. No way to really know, I guess.

That's why I always have trouble with putting them in my 'best ever' lists because I have a hard time separating how dominant and awesome they were in their own era with how I think they might fare in 2012.

1984
12-08-2012, 12:20 PM
Kobe Bryant is a top 10 player all time. I think the top 10 looks like this:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlin
5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6. Bill Russell
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Hakeem Olajuwan
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Tim Duncan

vnzla81
12-08-2012, 01:08 PM
I don't know if anybody feels the same way I feel with the old school players but to me when I compare old school players to this new era of NBA players is not even close, this new guys are bigger and stronger, I think that a lot of old school hall of famers would be bench players or decent starters in this new NBA so when I make a list of top 10 all NBA players I take this into consideration.

Hicks
12-08-2012, 01:43 PM
I can't think of any other shooting guard I would rank 2nd to Michael Jordan other than Kobe Bryant.

OlBlu
12-08-2012, 03:30 PM
I can't think of any other shooting guard I would rank 2nd to Michael Jordan other than Kobe Bryant.

Then let me help you with that. Jerry West....... Check that playoff scoring average....:cool:

OlBlu
12-08-2012, 03:32 PM
I don't know if anybody feels the same way I feel with the old school players but to me when I compare old school players to this new era of NBA players is not even close, this new guys are bigger and stronger, I think that a lot of old school hall of famers would be bench players or decent starters in this new NBA so when I make a list of top 10 all NBA players I take this into consideration.

Well, Wilt would be bigger and stronger and faster than any other centers in the game now. Oscar Robertson would be bigger than just about every point guard now. :cool: ...

OlBlu
12-08-2012, 03:35 PM
Kobe Bryant is a top 10 player all time. I think the top 10 looks like this:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlin
5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6. Bill Russell
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Hakeem Olajuwan
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Tim Duncan

How about the "logo"? Didn't he average 30 points per game in the playoffs? I would have both Jerry West and Oscar Robertson ahead of Kobe. That makes Kobe the fourth best Laker and just barely in the top ten...... I also think Moses Malone rates ahead of Olajuwan and Duncan :cool: ...

croz24
12-08-2012, 03:59 PM
I don't know if anybody feels the same way I feel with the old school players but to me when I compare old school players to this new era of NBA players is not even close, this new guys are bigger and stronger, I think that a lot of old school hall of famers would be bench players or decent starters in this new NBA so when I make a list of top 10 all NBA players I take this into consideration.

Which is why people don't take you seriously.

colts19
12-08-2012, 04:54 PM
I don't know if anybody feels the same way I feel with the old school players but to me when I compare old school players to this new era of NBA players is not even close, this new guys are bigger and stronger, I think that a lot of old school hall of famers would be bench players or decent starters in this new NBA so when I make a list of top 10 all NBA players I take this into consideration.

I understand why you feel that way. I assume you are a young man. Let me educate you a little. Being big and strong and athlectic is not something that happened since 1995. There have always been athlectic people it is nothing new. Kevin Love led the league in rebounding, he is not bigger or stonger than Wilt, Artis, Thurmond, Reed, Unseld and a lot of other past greats.

D. Howard is big and strong and athectic, but he has no skill set and is the most overrated center I have ever seen. He looks good and you think he should be better than all those guys I listed, but he isn't. I enjoy your post for the most part, but on this we just have to disagree.

vnzla81
12-08-2012, 05:12 PM
I understand why you feel that way. I assume you are a young man. Let me educate you a little. Being big and strong and athlectic is not something that happened since 1995. There have always been athlectic people it is nothing new. Kevin Love led the league in rebounding, he is not bigger or stonger than Wilt, Artis, Thurmond, Reed, Unseld and a lot of other past greats.

D. Howard is big and strong and athectic, but he has no skill set and is the most overrated center I have ever seen. He looks good and you think he should be better than all those guys I listed, but he isn't. I enjoy your post for the most part, but on this we just have to disagree.

I was talking about recent hall of famers or future hall of famers compared to old school hall of famers I was not talking about just any NBA player, for example if I had a choice between West and Kobe I take Kobe 10 times out of 10.

And with that said I believe that players like Russel, Walton, Kareem and others would have been just fine in this era.

croz24
12-08-2012, 05:47 PM
I was talking about recent hall of famers or future hall of famers compared to old school hall of famers I was not talking about just any NBA player, for example if I had a choice between West and Kobe I take Kobe 10 times out of 10.

And with that said I believe that players like Russel, Walton, Kareem and others would have been just fine in this era.

You also have to take into account that players during the era you are referencing did not have the technological, nutritional, or health advancements that today's players utilize. Give George McGinnis today's advancements and he is no different than LeBron athletically. Give Kemp or David Thompson or Drexler or Dr. J or Wilkins or Wilt etc. the same, and they are on par with the most athletic players today but with an actual basketball skillset.

BlueNGold
12-08-2012, 06:11 PM
I just never know how to translate their era to the modern one or even the 80s or 90s NBA. I tend to think they wouldn't do nearly as well today (particularly Russell at his size and skill set) with those same bodies/talent, though they would still be good or very good players. No way to really know, I guess.

That's why I always have trouble with putting them in my 'best ever' lists because I have a hard time separating how dominant and awesome they were in their own era with how I think they might fare in 2012.

I mainly recall seeing Wilt rather than Russell. Maybe it was his notoriety. But the way you translate Wilt to the modern era is to go through Kareem. Kareem was a dominant C and IMO better than all other centers except Hakeem and maybe Shaq. But when you compare him to Wilt, you can see who the better center was. That's the main reason I believe Wilt is the best center of all time.

BlueNGold
12-08-2012, 06:14 PM
I was talking about recent hall of famers or future hall of famers compared to old school hall of famers I was not talking about just any NBA player, for example if I had a choice between West and Kobe I take Kobe 10 times out of 10.

And with that said I believe that players like Russel, Walton, Kareem and others would have been just fine in this era.

Kareem would be the best center in today's NBA. Goodness, Tyson Chandler is considered one of the better centers and he has no game. I find today's era for centers to be awful. I could name 5 or 10 centers in the 90's that were considerably better than Tyson Chandler.

D-BONE
12-08-2012, 06:19 PM
No offense to Roy - a recent all - star center and arguably one of the league's best last year - but put he or Howard up against Wilt, Kareem, or a multitude of the 90s pivots. It screams painful MISMATCH. Like CYO vs. NFL. Duncan is one of the few current Cs who'd even give those guys a good run. And he's not even in his prime now.

BlueNGold
12-08-2012, 06:24 PM
No offense to Roy - a recent all - star center and arguably one of the league's best last year - but put he or Howard up against Wilt, Kareem, or a multitude of the 90s pivots. It screams painful MISMATCH. Like CYO vs. NFL. Duncan is one of the few current Cs who'd even give those guys a good run. And he's not even in his prime now.

Hakeem would make every single C in the NBA look like trash. Howard has the physique, but his skill level is terrible. Hibbert isn't even part of the conversation. There are no other centers in the NBA who even remotely compare. Yes, Duncan deserves an honorable mention but that's about it.

Pace Maker
12-08-2012, 06:33 PM
You really think that Kobe was the second best player on the back to back teams with Gasol? LMAO dude. Give me a break.
You may have a case in the year they beat Orlando, but ire-watch their championship against Boston. If you can't see that Pau Gasol was by far the better and more valuable player, I don't know what to say. How was Kobe better exactly? Name recognition? His 6-24 performance in Game 7? LOL

Eleazar
12-08-2012, 08:00 PM
No offense to Roy - a recent all - star center and arguably one of the league's best last year - but put he or Howard up against Wilt, Kareem, or a multitude of the 90s pivots. It screams painful MISMATCH. Like CYO vs. NFL. Duncan is one of the few current Cs who'd even give those guys a good run. And he's not even in his prime now.

I like to look at it this way. Smits was a good center in the 90's, but not one of the best. Today, he would easily be one of the best if not the best C.

shags
12-08-2012, 08:25 PM
You may have a case in the year they beat Orlando, but ire-watch their championship against Boston. If you can't see that Pau Gasol was by far the better and more valuable player, I don't know what to say. How was Kobe better exactly? Name recognition? His 6-24 performance in Game 7? LOL

You do have a point (kind of) if you ONLY watch the 2010 NBA Finals. Gasol not only was better in Game 7, but should have won the Finals MVP that season as well, IMO.

However, Tony Parker won the 2007 NBA Finals MVP. In no way, shape, or form was Tony Parker better than Tim Duncan that season. That's exactly the way to look at the 2010 Lakers. Kobe Bryant was the best player on that championship team. No question.

BobbyMac
12-08-2012, 09:37 PM
Wilt the Stilt was JUST AWESOME. He was so unbelieveably athletic, agile, and mobile. The greatest big man EVER!! He could be said the greatest BB player ever.

The problem I have with this thread is that few posters on this board have seen players who played in the 50's 60's, or 70's. If you never saw them play, you are at a great disadvantage ranking players.

Wilt was THE player in his time! He was head and shoulders above the rest. Chamberlain didn't have the quality of players surrounding him like Russell did, thus he didn't win Championships, but what he did do was make his team championship caliber contenders by himself. Most don't remember or know Wilt's 1st team was the Phiadelphia Warriors. Quick name another player on that team without goggling the answer. I watched many a game of Wilt's, and that's why I can say how GREAT he was!

How many are aware after the NBA that Wilt played volleyball? He was an ATHLETE personified!

I agree completely. I am old and have watched pro ball since the mid 50's.